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War on Iraq

Ten Ways to Debate Iraq

By Michael Schwartz, Tomdispatch.com. Posted December 8, 2005.


Among those opposing the war, there are questions that haunt our discussions. Here are a few pointed answers.
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I often receive emails -- pro and con -- about my postings on the war in Iraq, and I try to respond to any substantive questions or critiques offered.

But when I received an email recently entitled "10 Questions" in response to a Tomdispatch commentary detailing the arguments for immediate withdrawal, I must admit my heart sank -- the questions were familiar, but the answers were complex and I was in no mood to spend the time needed to respond properly.

After a couple of days, however, I began to warm to the idea of writing short but pointed responses to these common criticisms of antiwar positions because, I realized, they are the bread and butter of daily Iraq discourse in our country. When the war comes up in the media or in casual conversation, these are the issues that are raised by those who think we have to "stay the course" -- and among those who oppose the war, these are the lurking, unspoken questions that haunt our discussions. So here are my best brief answers to these key issues in the crucial, ongoing debate over Iraq.

"I read your article on withdrawal of American troops," my correspondent began, "and questioned the lack of discussion of the following..." (His comments are in bold.)

1. Nothing was mentioned about improvements in Iraq (elections, water and energy, schools). No Saddam to fear!

Water and energy delivery as well as schools are worse off than before the U.S. invasion. Ditto for the state of hospitals (and medical supplies), highways, and oil production. Elections are a positive change, but the elected government does not have more than a semblance of actual sovereignty, and therefore the Iraqi people have no power to make real choices about their future. One critical example: The Shiite/Kurdish political coalition now in power ran on a platform whose primary promise was that, if elected, they would set and enforce a timetable for American withdrawal. As soon as they took power, they reneged on this promise (apparently under pressure from the US). They have also proved quite incapable of fulfilling their other campaign promises about restoring services and rebuilding the country; and for that reason (as well as others), their constituents (primarily the Shia) are becoming ever more disillusioned. In the most recent polls, Shia Iraqis now are about 70 percent in favor of U.S. withdrawal.

2. Nothing was mentioned about Iraqis who want the U.S. to remain (especially the Kurds and the majority of Iraqi women).

Among the three principal ethno-religious groups in Iraq, the Sunnis (about a fifth of the population) are almost unanimous in their opposition to the American presence, while around 70% of the Shia (themselves about 60% of the population) want the U.S. to withdraw. Hence, even before we consider the Kurds, the majority of Iraqis are in favor of a full-scale American departure "as soon as possible." It is true that the Kurds (about 20% of the population) favor the U.S. remaining. However, they have their own militias and many of them do not want significant numbers of American troops in their territory. (The U.S. presence there is small-scale at the moment.) What they desire is a U.S. occupation for someone else, not themselves. I think we can safely say that the vast majority of Iraqis oppose the presence of U.S. troops.

I know of no study indicating that Iraqi women favor the U.S. presence. Perhaps you are referring to the fact that large numbers of women in Iraq are upset and angry over the erosion of their rights since the fall of Saddam. I know some commentators claim that the U.S. presence is insurance against further erosion of those rights, but everything I have read indicates that a significant number of Iraqi women (like all Iraqis) blame the Bush administration for these policies. After all, the Americans installed in power (and continue to support) the political forces spearheading anti-woman policies in the country. Polling data do not indicate that any sizable group of Sunni or Shia women support a continued U.S. presence.

3. Nothing was mentioned about the benefits of the U.S. military gaining valuable experience and knowledge daily.

Certainly, the U.S. gains military and political "experience" from the war, as from any war, but at the expense of many deaths (2,127) and injuries (at least 15,704) to American soldiers. Beyond these publicly listed casualty figures lie the endless ways in which the lives of our soldiers are permanently damaged: On November 26, for example, the New York Times reported on a recent army study indicating that 17% of all personnel sent to Iraq have "serious symptoms of depression, anxiety or post-traumatic stress disorder." Since about a million American troops have now seen service in Iraq, approximately 170,000 have gained the "experience" of having a severe mental problem. Moreover, the war experience in Iraq has proved so demoralizing to the military that many of the best soldiers are leaving at the end of their tours, instead of staying on in active or reserve status. This is undermining the viability of the military, long term.


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Michael Schwartz is a professor of sociology at the State University of New York at Stony Brook. His work on Iraq has appeared at ZNET and TomDispatch, and in Z magazine.

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None of that will do shit
Posted by: Ghoulman on Dec 8, 2005 4:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Having argued, railed, and hacked my way across the cyber-verse it's clear there is an army of racist, lying, jackbooted, neo-nazis out there determined to call for the torture and murder of even someone labeled as "liberal"

This army is made up of Americans.

They don't give a rats arse about reason, have you seen thier TV? The States is a culture bent on revenge fantasies, laws based on extreemist religious fundementalism, and more "security" personel than Stalin in his hay-day. It's clear, even when thier rights are taken away from them, thier government murdering people on a national scale, and even torturing them for WMD info that never existed, Americans are an insane people.

Here in Canada, we brought down our government for imbezzlement. THAT'S IT! In the USA, nothing happens to a clear Junta no matter how fucking insane the crimes on an internationl scale let alone domestically.

The only way to convince an American of anything is to hold a gun thier head.

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» RE: None of that will do shit Posted by: A. James
» RE: None of that will do shit Posted by: Texocrat
» RE: None of that will do shit Posted by: A. James
FREEDOM IS A HISTORICAL ARTIFACT
Posted by: Jeffersonista on Dec 8, 2005 6:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The MIC, military industrial complex, the fascist regime now ontrols most of the world. The future is here and it is a picture of a boot smashing a face forever. Every day fewer and fewer people control more and more of the worlds resources. The darkness is just beginning.

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It's all about the oil!
Posted by: codybryan on Dec 8, 2005 6:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This war was fought to control the majority of the world's oil resources. The oil compainies now can jack up their prices, and have.

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It's supposed to make us THINK!
Posted by: ridebalanced on Dec 8, 2005 7:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When you're done reacting, what do you do to change your world? This is one of the best responses to the insanity of "our" presence in Iraq that I've read and can use in daily arguments. Why do some people have to try to diminish others in their reactions? I.E., the author of this article felt attacked.
Does it make you feel better to call names? Aren't you falling for the same name-calling you hate? Propaganda exists on and in our own liberal territory. Open your eyes people! Aren't you angry reading those words?
If you imitate my enemy I will turn a cheek, or four. If you make me listen, I can change the world. If I ignore insanity, I can make life better for the uncounted billions who have nothing to do with investing in the USA of A and our internal Civil War?
The point is to be able to respond to the knee-jerk tapping of our knees. Then to get up and walk away. Think away.

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11. The war creates jobs by creating violent criminals
Posted by: ScottP on Dec 8, 2005 10:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's hard to argue against this one. Just like Vietnam, many of the returning veterans have become so accustomed to violence that it will be hard for them to stop. Here in the US, they will continue to wave guns around and sometimes kill people. Like Vietnam, we will see a spike in violent crime here in the US. This will create more of those wonderful prison industrial complex jobs. An added side effect is that a growth in violent crime will mean that the legal system will have to address that as its priority, and hence breach of contract and other civil cases will be further delayed, making it easier for corrupt and dishonest businesses to squeeze out honest businesses and rip off the public.

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12. The reconstruction will make Iraq dependent on US replacement parts
Posted by: ScottP on Dec 8, 2005 10:12 AM   
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Hard to argue against this one, either. The old Iraq electic grid was decidedly low tech and labor intensive. That is ideal for a country with minimal high tech industry and high unemployment. Under such conditions it produces the cheapest power. The new facilities will be American style, high tech and highly automated. That means fewer jobs. It also means that when parts break or software fails, the Iraqis will need to keep buying replacement parts from the US suppliers and keep paying for maintenance contracts. The price per kilowatt hour will increase significantly, as will profits for US suppliers. The purpose of installing the plants in Iraq is to make them dependent on US suppliers, which is why instead of just paying the salaries for the existing Iraqi electrical workers to repair their own plants we fired them and had US contractors do the work.

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Just remember...
Posted by: beetruetoyou on Dec 8, 2005 12:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...that half of Americans did not vote this administration in and there's questions regarding the entire election process in this country. Frightening indeed but just know there are some sane folks living here who are appalled that this is happening in our country and are continuing to work at bringing justice and accountability back to our government.

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» RE: Just remember... Posted by: Rod in 83706
The U.S. military industrial economy
Posted by: Edward George on Dec 8, 2005 4:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with everything in the argument for getting out of Iraq BUT!!

A very large part of the US economy is built on supplying that monstrous military machine. If it were suddenly disbanded, all military contracts canceled and all military posts closed, this country would dive into a deep depression. What we desperately need is a plan to quickly shift those skills and factories, transportation capabilities, materials etc. etc. into providing something the world needs. THAT is the greatest challenge for any political party, economist, business leadship group, church, politician, university or sociologist. Many would have great difficulty visualizing such a world but I'm old enough to remember when our military was hardly more significant than the Boy Scouts. It is possible; the only thing lacking is real guts instead of bravado.

Ed George

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Partial response to #10
Posted by: Rod in 83706 on Dec 8, 2005 8:34 PM   
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If the terrorist's anger is because of their poverty, then their anger toward the US is mis-directed. It should be directed at their political leaders (mostly monarchs) and their religious leaders.

And don't most people who think about this issue believe that the terrorist's anger is aimed at Israel and at the US for supporting Israel?

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Partial response to #6
Posted by: Rod in 83706 on Dec 8, 2005 8:41 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Point # 6 is about the terrorists in Iraq.

I predicted before the war that if we invaded Iraq and deposed Sadaam, that Iraq would dissolve into a three-way civil war (Shiites, Sunis, and Kurds) and be invaded by Iran, for sure, and maybe even Syria.

Because of the incompetence of the Bush administration, whenever we leave, whether that be six months or six years, Iraq will dissolve into a four-way civil war (Shiites, Sunis, Kurds, and terrorists), and Iran will still invade.

And when I point out the incompetence of the Bush administration, you should also know that no Democrat administration would have been any more competent.

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"10 Ways" Is the Choir Preaching to Itself
Posted by: roger1 on Dec 9, 2005 6:24 AM   
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With all due respect, I think "10 Ways" is an example of the angry left yelling at the angry left. How long do we have to define and refine variations of the same arguement that we were not told the truth. What did you expect?

If you want to reach out to folks who don't think like us and aren't blog nuts, start with a simple premise: the Iraq war made the US more vulnerable. It made us all less safe.

You will be amazed at how many people who are not political activists and not so-called lefties will listen to you if you use that approach.

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Just remember...
Posted by: symcokid on Dec 9, 2005 10:29 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Someday our arrogant premise of "might makes right" will come back to haunt us! Who else besides Bush is attempting to take our freedoms away?

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corporate ownership
Posted by: alternetleslie on Dec 9, 2005 1:50 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If people would stop treating stock ownership like Las Vegas and get involved in what the companies are doing things could change. If large group of activists get their investments together and buy stock, get a representative to go to stockholder meetings and vote less bucks for the CEO and irresponsible policies, there could be some changes. Bet few people who are invested in "funds" even know what companies the fund owns. Check it out. Maybe you own Haliburton, a pharmacutical company, a tobacco company, and/or a big oil company. Are your stocks prices rising and giving you good dividends? Ask why? You can't push the corporations to maximize profits for you and then cry when their method of doing so is unethical and immoral and dangerous. Act now to form a union of investors and act in solidarity. Demand ethical board of directors. Demand ethical CEOs and ethical company policies. Even good companies earn well. As a consumer, use your dollars as votes for companies. Before you buy, check out their practices in the market place, how they treat their employees, how much the pollute, who do they give the most campaign contributions. Let's organize. Have a consumer strike to hit them in the pocket where their ears are located. We have power, but we are just not using it.

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ONLY Ten Ways?
Posted by: Jayzer on Dec 10, 2005 2:07 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As much as I appreciate Michael Schwartz's column about the Ten Ways to Debate the War on Iraq, I have to wonder why he also didn't include the fact that the war itself, sold to us as a "preemptive" or "preventive" war, is an act of aggression insofar as the Saddam Hussein regime did NOT attack us.

As a war of aggression, it is a serious violation of international law, including all the founding documents of the United Nations and the Geneva Conventions. In fact, it was one of the charges leveled at Nazi and Japanese war criminals during the post-World War II tribunals held in Nuremberg and Tokyo, in addition to the crimes of genocide committed by the Axis powers in that conflict.

Leaving aside the unfortunate fact that the tribunals in question represent a "victors' justice," it is worth pointing out the dangerous precedent set by the launching of "preemptive" wars, since if one power can do this without penalty, then so can others.

Other than that, other points I have also mentioned in debates with apologists for the war include the fact that Saddam's regime had been encircled by two no-fly zones imposed since the end of Gulf War I; that in one of the no-fly zones, the Kurdish region in the north, had evaded control by the regime in Baghdad; that prior to the March, 2003 invasion by US and British forces, the Iraqis, after much external pressure, acceded to further weapons inspections and that there was a good deal of satellite surveillance of the country, certainly enough to reveal any significant military movements.

Having said that much, I do applaud Schwarz's good article since it makes many important points about how the war damages Iraqis, Americans and the world at large, but I am sure that there are more than ten reasons to oppose the war.

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Bush's Speeches to Bolster support for Iraq with "Captive Audiences"
Posted by: tanstaafl28 on Dec 12, 2005 4:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bush's major campaign to garner support for the Iraq War have been at military installations and pro-Bush "think-tanks" where he is sure to get the kind of "enthusiastic support" he's always looking for, just like when the Secret Service has traditionally kept Bush dissenters back and his supporters up front.

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