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War on Iraq

An Army of None

By Sarah Ferguson, Village Voice. Posted November 28, 2005.


If the anti-recruitment activists win, we could be facing a draft soon -- and that's fine with them.
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"They're talking 'bout us lying, but look at this," complained Army Staff Sergeant Blanco (he declined to give his first name), holding up one of the flyers a group of anarchists was distributing recently outside the Armed Forces Recruiting Center in Brooklyn. "It says we work on commission and get paid more the more recruits we sign up. If that was true, I'd be driving a Lexus. We'd set up a tent and be out here 24-7."

Billed on NYC Indymedia as a chance to "strike at the Achilles heal of the war machine!", the small street demo drew far more cops than anarchists. But for the Army and Marine recruiters milling outside their empty offices on Flatbush Avenue, it was yet another hurdle in a job that's getting tougher by the day.

From San Francisco, where voters just passed a measure aimed at kicking recruiters out of public schools and off college campuses, to East Harlem, where about 75 people gathered to protest the opening of a new recruiting office on East 103rd Street, recruiters are finding themselves in the crosshairs of the anti-war movement.

Buoyed by falling enlistment rates, peace activists of all stripes now see draining the supply of new soldiers as a more hands on way to stop the war in Iraq.

"It's better than marching around in circles," said Brian, a dumpster-diving squatter from Brooklyn as he pressed leaflets and pamphlets on high school kids and other passersby in hopes of dissuading any potential new GIs.

In the past year, Army enlistment has fallen off target by more than 6,600 soldiers, the biggest shortfall since 1979. Recruiting for the National Guard and Army Reserves has been worse.

Among African Americans, Army enlistment has dropped by 40 percent since 2000, a fact not lost on the recruiters posted in Flatbush. "We don't have the revolving door any more," said Army staff sergeant Arrindell, a Brooklyn native who also declined to give his first name. "Before a lot of people were walking in. Now you really have to go out and hustle."

Arrindell shrugged. "Nobody in New York has anything good to say about the war," he said.

"If we continue at this pace, guess what's next: a draft," an African American sergeant sitting at the desk next to him chimed in. "What are we going to do then as a country -- are people going to Canada? Then you've actually forced the government to do that, because you've stopped the people who want to voluntarily serve by giving them a lot of flak for it. What kind of democracy would we have then?"

Talk of crisis within the ranks only heartened the anarchists demonstrating outside. "Bring it on -- I would love a draft," said Wesley Everett, a 31-year-old from Queens who helped organize the protest. "It would expose how pathetic their war agenda really is.

"People sign up for two years' service but they can be called up for eight under the stop-loss program -- so that already is a draft. Poverty is a draft," he continued, echoing a complaint by Harlem Congressman Charlie Rangel, who has advocated reinstating a universal draft as a means to check the Bush Administration's militarism.

As Rangel and others have argued, the U.S. would be out of Iraq already -- or might never have gone in -- if children of the middle and privileged classes were forced to serve.

Helping the Enemy?

Of course, the thought that the military could be backed into a corner like this has alarmed war supporters, who have echoed President Bush's charge that the anti-war movement is helping the enemy.


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Wesley Everett
Posted by: Patrick Murfin on Nov 28, 2005 4:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I couldn't help but smile when I read the following in the article: "Bring it on -- I would love a draft," said Wesley Everett, a 31-year-old from Queens who helped organize the protest. "It would expose how pathetic their war agenda really is.

Wesley Everett is obviously a nom de guerre. There was a real Wesley Everett. He was a World War I veteran who returned to his home town of Centralia, Washington in 1919. He was a member of the Industrial Workers of the World (IWW), the radical labor union active in the Northwest timber industry. Everett, still in uniform, defended the IWW hall in town when it was attacked by Armistice Day mob led by the American Legion. After an exchange of gun fire in which a Legionnaire was killed, a wounded Everett was dragged from the hall, beaten, dragged behind an auto, castrated, and then lynched by hanging off a bridge. He became one of the IWW celebrated and plentiful martyrs. I would say it was a very good name for an anarchist anti-recruiting militant.

Patrick Murfin,
An old Wobbly

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Thanks, Patrick!
Posted by: kww355 on Nov 28, 2005 4:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks to Patrick for filling us in about "Wesley". As a labor activist and union member, I have researched the "Wobblies" a little, but never came across that story. Great "nom de guerre"!

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Leave No Child Behind, Indeed !!!
Posted by: kww355 on Nov 28, 2005 4:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Pluck 'em just out of high school and turn them into cannon fodder in the name of "education". Another example of supreme Bushian irony...Freedom is Slavery...Ignorance is Strength...War is Peace...No Child Left Behind.

Somebody in this administration has a really warped sense of humor.

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» OOPS... Posted by: qrswave
» RE: OOPS... Posted by: EncinoM
» SHOOT! EncinoM... Posted by: qrswave
If they do the draft there will be the biggest civil disobedience since Ghandi!
Posted by: Pepper on Nov 28, 2005 4:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
According to the Constitution, you can't "force" service, thus its voluntary even under the draft.

After all the tests including physicals and the student/youth is brought into a large room all together, the military rep tells them to stand, "take a step forward" (which is the voluntary step required to comply with the Constitution) and raise your right hand to be sworn in.

At that point, I tell the students, don't take that step forward, rather sit down. It a test in court how they see that. Don't be intimidated, they will threaten you, conjole, force, and test your resolve, but be firm because in the end your really fighting for your life. This is a draft of fodder by those who don't see us as human, so you are on your own even in battle and war. Its like no other military that has ever existed who cared about the men they sent to war. This batch of psychopathic chickhawks are totally oblilvious to the value of the human masses they will send along their way. Remember there still are no flap jackets or armoured humvees and those that are armoured aren't armoured down by the gas pedal where the bombs usually blow thus you could be maimed if not killed. And all of it for bankers and oil. FORGET IT!!!! LET THEM SEND THEIR KIDS.

Also don't bother trying to go to Canada. They have signed treaties with the US that says they will return the "deserter" upon request. That is why there is more border guards AND BORDER STATIONS BUILT on the Canadian border than on the Mexico border. They cared more about stopping the desertions than they did about illegal immigration. LOL

This generation has the full responsibility for the future of our country more so than at anytime in history with the exception of 1776. I hope we are up to it. Even with TV, drugs and systemic medication, its possible to get through the haze we are in and stand for something much greater than ourselves.

It requires we all cooperate for them to succeed. Remember the woman on the bus in NY when it was stopped by private security to check "papers please" and a 50 year old woman refused and she got arrested??? Well, if everyone on that bus had refused she would either 'never got arrested' or the whole bus would have been arrested and that would have created a bureaucratic nightmare.

Lets start creating more nightmares. LOL ITS FRIGGEN TIME!!!!!!

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» SEE, SEE---I REST MY CASE; Posted by: qrswave
» RE:Sadly I don't agree Posted by: Edward George
Enlist or Draft For Corporate Wars?
Posted by: badger on Nov 28, 2005 5:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The 18 - year Army seargent who stated that the men and women in uniform are protecting our freedoms is a little out of date: they were protecting our freedoms. What they're being made to do in Iraq today is to protect corporate oil interests, while our freedoms are being eroded right here at home.
We need our troops here at home to protect America from that nest of terrorists already in the White House! No draft would be needed to accomplish that mission.

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Specific Instructions on how to avoid the draft.
Posted by: Pepper on Nov 28, 2005 5:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you care Please Let any Girl or Boy 17 to 50 have this information on how to Not Volunteer for the Draft or National Service.

Tricking you is another way the Government Avoids that Pesky 13th Amendment No slavery nor involuntary servitude, Constitution Problem.

Now if only there was a "Pearl Harbor" type of event to really pull this nation together...

Oh wait they tried that already!!

NO DODGING ? JUST REFUSE TO VOLUNTEER? HERE?S HOW:

I hope that you will not be offended if I tell you HOW THE "DRAFT" works. I realize that most people THINK they know how it works, but in most cases they are in error! AND, you can avoid the worry when 'College and Canada will not be options [because] in December 2001, Canada and the U.S. signed a "smart border declaration," which could be used to keep would-be draft dodgers in.'

Being willing (and eager) to fight for one's country when it is truly in danger is one thing. Having the courage to refuse to fight in immoral and/or
unconstitutional "wars" is quite another matter, I believe. ICE No need to "dodge" the ball if they're not allowed to hit you with it, if you merely 'take your stand' and refuse to VOLUNTEER!

1. Mr. A receives a "draft notice" and is told to report on a certain date to a certain place where he receives his physical and mental tests...then he
is classified with a number indicating whether he is A1(first called)...all the way down to 4F(unfit for duty).

2. Mr.A is told that he is to report for "induction" into the military and to appear at a certain military base for that purpose on a date specified.

3. By "LAW" he must appear there...or a warrant for his arrest will be issued.

4. Assuming he reports as directed he will have another brief physical and tests and then is told to "line up on the yellow line (painted on the floor)

See next post for more

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Continued from post above
Posted by: Pepper on Nov 28, 2005 5:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
5. A Recruiting Officer will then tell all those "joining the army (or whatever)to take one step forward...(Oh, oh, THOSE WHO DID THIS JUST
"VOLUNTEERED!")This is done so that no one can "legally" claim they were "forced into involuntary servitude!" "RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND AND SWEAR ALLEGIANCE." (almost everyone does!...thinking it must be REQUIRED!): "I, (name) do solemnly swear that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America and will defend it against all enemies foreign and domestic, and will obey the orders of the President and the officers appointed over me, so help me God."

6. Those who "voluntarily" stepped forward CANNOT NOW CLAIM THEY WERE"DRAFTED"...they stepped forward voluntarily and took the Oath voluntarily!

7. Assume Mr. B was smarter than Mr. A and HE DID NOT STEP FORWARD ANDTHEREFORE DID NOT TAKE THE OATH OF ALLEGIANCE. (the recruiter will probably say something like this: "what's the matter with you, don't you know what' step forward' means?" Mr. B responds, "sure I do, but I AM NOTVOLUNTEERING TO SERVE IN THE MILITARY...If you want me you must 'take me' against my will by force!"

8. All of those who "volunteered" will now be excused from the room...and the Mr. B will be cajoled with persuasive arguments...at first...then, when
nothing works to change his mind he will be called names and insulted, possibly even assaulted by one or more military people present there as
witnesses.

9.IF Mr. B does not weaken, stands his ground, eventually the tormentors will give up and have him arrested on some charge. However, there is NO
lawful way that they can MAKE him go into the military...because of the Constitutional prohibition against "involuntary servitude"...which is why NO
ONE IS TRULY EVER "DRAFTED" AND MUST BE "SEDUCED " INTO VOLUNTEERING!

One thing to say at this point is what the cops are coached to say on the witness stand: "Am I ordered?"

If the recruiter says No, then obviously you're OK. If the recruiter says Yes, then "By what authority do you, a military officer, order me, a
civilian?" If the recruiter says anything else, repeat the question until you get Yes or No.

(see continuation - its almost over, LOL)

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» RE: Continued from post above Posted by: nanobubble
Interesting the way it was framed by the army before
Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 28, 2005 5:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The "army of one" frame makes it look like you're in control once you're in and that somehow you'll be all-powerful when in fact it's gotten to be nothing more than being tricked into being a nazi's slave. With unneeded wars going on and likely to continue no matter who becomes president in 2008, I'm glad I'm way out of the army.

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Bring On the Dratf.
Posted by: itchyvet on Nov 28, 2005 5:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
An 18 year (lifer) Sargent claims he's protecting your freedoms.

Yet here we have this ;

Yet even as some students opt out of the lists that schools are mandated to provide, the Pentagon has hired a direct marketing firm to amass data on young people aged 16 to 25 -- including birth dates, Social Security numbers, e-mail addresses, ethnicity, religious affiliation, grade-point averages, school interests, and other info pulled from motor vehicle records, commercial data vendors, Armed Services aptitude tests, and scholarship survey forms -- possibly even medical lists.

Unlike the student lists compiled by schools, there is no opt-out form for the Pentagon's Joint Advertising and Market Research Studies (JAMRS) Recruiting Database. Last month a coalition of parents, anti-war, and privacy groups wrote to the Department of Defense demanding that the $343 million program be dismantled.

"Initially I think people were shocked at the privacy issues involved with turning over student records. Now I think people are more shocked at what the military is actually doing," Tykulsker says. "This is a military that's engaged in serious illegal acts,

This is FREEDOM ??????????????? Where your Government plans to co-opt you before you've even left school.
Keeps tabs on you through your childhood ?????????????????

Americans really BELIEVE this crap ??????????????????????????

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» RE: Bring On the Dratf. Posted by: mark
» RE: Bring On the Dratf. Posted by: Doubtom
» Thank you Doubtom Posted by: qrswave
Typo
Posted by: just john on Nov 28, 2005 5:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Achilles heel" is what you meant.

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» RE: Typo Posted by: nickptar
Vern
Posted by: Vern on Nov 28, 2005 6:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So the people are joining together to interfere with the effort to recruit more young people at a time of war? How awful! So... if they run out of willing victims... what will happen to America?

I found a song on the web (Free of course) that does a good job of pondering that question. The song is called,
"If We Should Stop This War" and was written by a fellow named Lorne Clarke.

Here is the URL for the page where the song can be found:

http://www.songaweek.com

The lyrics are included below for those who do not wish to follow the link:

*********************
If We Should Stop This War
by Lorne Clarke © 2005

If we should stop this war,
What will become of us?
If we should stop this war,
Will we be ground up into dust?
If we should stop this war my friend,
Do you believe the killing will never end?
That we'd just be wasting all that money we spent,
If we should stop this war?

If we should stop this war,
What would happen next?
If we should stop this war,
What can we expect?
If we should stop this war my son,
Will we live like vermin on the run
Will the crescent moon replace the sun
If we should stop this war

Refrain: 
If we should stop this war
What will it mean to me?
If my son comes home alive 
Will we be no longer free?

If we should stop this war
Will we have less food to eat
If we should stop this war
Will we be shot like dogs in the streets
If we should stop this war, kind sir
Can we really expect the worst
Oh how can we explain why the young die first
If we should stop this war

If we should stop this war
What will the headlines say
If we should stop this war
Will our pride be stripped away
If we should stop this war my friend
Will we never live in freedom - ever again
Will we prove it's better to break - not bend
If we should stop this war

Repeat Refrain

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» RE: Vern Posted by: ladyoracle
» RE: Vern Posted by: bsbremmer
Support the Troops
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Nov 28, 2005 7:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm a Vietnam Vet. Most of my friends are too. They were sent on suicide missions, where none of our boys were supposed to come back. In 'mop up' missions where everything get burned and killed. As well as 'search and destroy' missions where you kill everything with a pulse. All done against a people that believed having a Elephant in Town was a blessing. Hardly a communist threat. When we got home it became clear that the best way to support the Men and Women in uniform is to NOT have standing armies.
Franklin knew that in the 1700's,so did Jeffreson. So do we.
To never see half a veteran, gold star mom, or battlefield psychosis would be the strongest support of the people.
To never make another Veteran,from any war or any country would be a true Blessing to all the People's of the World.

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» RE: Support the Troops Posted by: bschuhle
» RE: Support the Troops Posted by: stoney13
» Amen. Posted by: qrswave
» RE: Thank you Posted by: Edward George
Protecting freedoms? It's a myth ...
Posted by: LeonDion on Nov 28, 2005 7:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... and it's a myth that needs to be dispelled quickly.

"'We're so quick to voice our opinions, but why do you have the right to do that? Because of the men and women in uniform who protect our freedom,' says the African American Army sergeant working the desk in Flatbush."

This is a myth. This myth gives way too much influence to the corporate / government nexus. Don't give the battle away by accepting without question such ridiculous statements as the one quoted above.

The issue in this war, as in almost every war fought since the Revolution, is NOT whether Americans will be less free if the war is lost. That's NEVER been the issue.

The issue has always been portrayed thusly: that Saddam Hussein, a man who did nothing to restrict Americans' freedoms at any time before the war, MIGHT attack America, UNLESS the Army of the United States goes there attacks his army first. That was the issue, and it was always the issue. It never had anything to do about Americans losing their freedoms.

Get real.

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www.leavemychildalone.org
Posted by: rdsanchez1966 on Nov 28, 2005 8:38 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For more information please go to the subject web site. It gives information on getting your child's (or any child's) name off the Pentagon's data base.

If a person wants to serve or not serve in the military that's okay by me. The problem is that recruiters are making promises they can't keep and probably know they can't keep. Too many young people are finding out that the Pot of Gold at the end of the rainbow isn't there.

Another tactic a young person can use is tell the recruiter that they are gay and would like to check with their boy friend. Never mind that Alexander the Great was a homo and conquered half the known world.

Peace out.

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Why we need the draft
Posted by: zooeyhall on Nov 28, 2005 9:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Plain and simple: we need the draft to force members of all classes and income groups to fight in our wars.

The Powers-that-be are perfectly satsified with the current system. The economically disadvantaged join the armed forces, while the wealthy can safely cheer from the sidelines, knowing that their kids are safe from the "economic draft".

Please---progressives, liberals, anti-war people---please understand that passionate arguments, marching in the streets, putting flowers in guns, standing in front of recruitment offices; will NOT end this war or prevent future wars. It will only happen if the elite in this country realize that wars will also affect THEIR kids.

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» RE: Why we need the draft Posted by: liberalibrarian
» RE: Why we need the draft Posted by: aebartle
» RE: Why we need the draft Posted by: underledge
» RE: Why we need the draft Posted by: pepaw
» RE: I wish this was true Posted by: Edward George
No child left alive
Posted by: crachlis on Nov 28, 2005 10:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lets take up the correct name of the administrations programs when we refer to them. No Child Left Alive seems appropriate.

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So how do you plan to fix our broken Army?
Posted by: gerdhansel on Nov 28, 2005 10:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Okay, so you break the Army by starving it of new recruits to fill the ranks. So you force our corporate whore President to pull the broken Army out of Iraq. How do you propose that we fix our broken Army then?

Thanks in large part to your efforts to vilify recruiters and turn the people of this country against their sons and daughters in uniform, the Army will stay broken for years. The Congress would sooner cut off funding and force a withdrawal from Iraq than bring back the draft. It just isn’t in the cards.

But the Army is breaking, bit by bit, with each passing day.

I served in the broken Army of the mid-1970s, and saw first-hand the demoralization in the ranks of senior NCOs and officers who served in Vietnam, where Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon broke the Army by forcing it into a thankless and politically impossible “police action.”

I wore the uniform when the North Vietnamese violated the Paris Peace Accords and invaded South Vietnam. I remember well when the Democratic Congress refused to fund any efforts by President Ford to come to the aid of the South Vietnamese. When Saigon fell in April 1975, I was stationed in Germany. When we hoisted a beer at the local Gasthaus that night, all the embittered soldiers who had recently returned form a tour in the “Nasty Place” toasted together, “Charlie’s in my hooch tonight.”

This was the broken Army of the 1970s that Vietnam created. But in all honesty, if today’s Army ends up broken again, it won’t just be the fault of yet another corporate-whore administration. Those who vilify recruiters and other “economic conscripts” will share the blame with President Frat Boy.

When the real wolf comes howling at the door, what use will a broken and demoralized Army be? I promise you, the Chinese are closely observing what is happening to Army recruiters in Pittsburgh, San Francisco and New York City. And they are smiling. The wolf is baring his teeth, and soon he will be at the door.

Remember what Rudyard Kipling wrote more than 100 years ago:

“And it’s Tommy this, and it’s Tommy that
And it’s ‘chuck him out, the brute’
But it’s ‘Savior of our Country’
When the guns begin to shoot”

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» SEALS rock!!! I'm with you, buddy Posted by: gerdhansel
» Draft the corporations Posted by: LeonDion
» RE: Draft the corporations Posted by: LeonDion
» Fix it? Nah Abolish it. Posted by: crachlis
Excellent story, misleading subcaption
Posted by: apapmtz on Nov 28, 2005 10:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The subcaption gives the impression that anti-recruitment activists want the draft, just because one pseudonymous activist made such a comment.
As a Quaker, I attest that most anti-recruitment activists earnestly struggle against all forms of coercion, including economic pressure, and lies, as well as any future draft law, that would push young people into war.

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A Draft By Any Other Name
Posted by: rdsanchez1966 on Nov 28, 2005 11:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree that if we had a legal draft unlike our current economic draft the powers that be will find a way around it, just like in paying taxes.

What I think the point the anti-recruiter people are making is that if the possibility of middle income kids going to war existed the politicians would take issues of war and peace more seriously.

If this were a real emergency the American people would sign up on their own e.g. WWII. During WWII people lied about their age and health to serve in the military. In Vietnam people lied about their age and health to avoid military service. Iraq II those fighting signed up for service be it out of patriotism or lack of economic opptunities. If you add a draft in the mix you will see anti-war protests along the likes of the Vietnam War. Vietnam and Iraq II have some similiarites but differences as well.

I have no doubt that Bush will start a third war to distract the public from the failures of his first two wars. We know about Iraq but did you know that Afghanistan is the number one producer of herion grade poppies? What ever happened to the war on drugs? I guess it went the way of the war on poverty and soon to go the way of the war on terrorism. The only way to prevent another war is to make sure that Bush doesn't get us involved in another quagmire. If we are stretched thin now someone in Congress or the Pentagon will say "enough!"

To find out more please go to www.antiwar.com, this is a Libertatian Right anti-war site. Good articles and commentary from across the political spectrum.

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Draft is better than All Volunteer military: Here's why...
Posted by: bbuc on Nov 28, 2005 2:58 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We should bring back the draft because the United States doesn't need a 'military class' of 'Professional' soldiers... we need to preserve and nurture the concept of the Citizen Soldier, who responds to specific needs... not to be available, willy nilly whenever someone (like Cheney/Rummy/Bush) decides to go in and slap a 3 world country around which can't defend itself... like we did in Iraq. However, if there is a LEGITIMATE cause for large masses of soldiers they can be called up for service, with the support of the citizenry, not in spite of it.

Also, maybe readers have noticed that our 'professional' military is overwhelmingly in favor of the GOP. Would you like them policing your next peace march in Washington? That certain kind of culture within the service would be less so if we had a citizen army-- through a draft. A citizen's army will not be inclined to operate against its own people.

A Professional Army is less concerned and less connected to the citizenry and more concerned about itself... the Military Class, its benefits, its pay, protecting its own, as opposed to the greater good.

A bogus war like Iraq (and like Viet Nam) would have far less support if all families were affected by military call-up... not just the poor or ignorant.

GW Bush is still facing trouble because he avoided the draft in the 70's... so is Cheney.

Find out more about this view here:

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Another perspective
Posted by: pdxlinuxchix on Nov 28, 2005 3:06 PM   
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Okay, I'm going to come at this almost but not quite agreeing with some of what is said. Firstly, the requisite disclaimer--I am a veteran and my son is currently serving in Iraq. He volunteered, despite my objections, not because he supports the policy but because, as he told me "we have a tradition of military service in our family. You served, Mom, aunt L, served, grandpa served and soldiers don't get to pick their wars." So, while I worry about my son, I am immensely proud. It takes a special kind of man to volunteer to go into the military, in a time of war, knowing one doesn't support the policy.

Now, as to the issue at hand...volunteer or draft? I, for one, would like see a universal 18-30, gender-blind draft, no college exemptions, no only-child exemptions, none of what anybody did to get out of Vietnam. Here's why. Provided that the powers-that-be don't have to worry about *their* child flying back to Dover in a box, they can be relatively cavalier about starting adventures in foreign shores. As soon as it's possible that the fruit of the loins of the upper class and the wealthy are at risk, well, perhaps storming into other nations to 'bring democracy' won't seem like such a good idea.

The other thing I think would do the nation a lot of good, is having more people who take the oath that was mentioned in an earlier post. To this day, almost twenty years *after* I got out of the military I still see that my allegiance, as an American, does not adhere to the flag, to the elected squatter at 1600 Pennsylvania avenue but to the Constitution. I learned that, amongst a host of other things, in the Army.

And by the way, they *are* defending our freedoms. Those kids are fighting an illegal and immoral war but they didn't join to do that--they joined to get some education, a bit of training and because they're idealistic enough to 'stand on a wall and say "nothing's going to hurt you tonight, not on my watch"'

Cheers
lf

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» RE: Another perspective Posted by: mokums
Bring it on -- I would love a draft," said Wesley Everett, a 31-year-old from Queens
Posted by: philosopherintraining on Nov 29, 2005 7:23 AM   
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Freaking ridiculous. The Jerk would probably get drafted!

I do NOT advocate war of any kind, at all. But if people want a draft, not realizing how SCREWED we'd all be, then fine. Stop the volunteers.

Write your will, and get your affairs in order. It'll be like 'Nam. And you'll be just as screwed when you get back.

Idiots.

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Empty force
Posted by: saretto on Nov 30, 2005 6:12 AM   
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I don't feel that the peace movement is forcing a draft. The government, who has always hinted at a draft, will make the final decision. If you are going to blame the people for trying to end a war that they do not want to be in, saying that they are responsible because we must be there, then turn it around. The will of the people should be respected and seen that we do not want to be in this war. If the gov't institutes a draft and people go to Canada after a sharp decline in recruitment, what does this tell you.
The people do not want the war.
If out leaders are deaf to the voice of the people, then their guns shall be silenced with a lack of people.
To me it's like a boss saying to an employee, "I don't care if there's no paper, just print it."

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Follow the money
Posted by: Burtonger on Nov 21, 2006 12:55 AM   
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SO much depends on war.

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Support our Military
Posted by: Greekplaya3 on Nov 30, 2006 6:09 PM   
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Apparently most of you people dont know how this country was founded. As i recall, citizens also know as soldiers fought for this country and made it what it is today. And now everyone is screaming out no more recruiting and no draft. So when another country comes and invades us what are you going to say then. You are going to say help. Dont be stupid, know the facts and relearn history before you protest and say anything else stupid. I stand strong and support our military. I'm joining the army and its sad that i fight for sorry cowards who dont support the people who are protecting their asses.

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