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War on Iraq

Stuck In Baghdad? Yeah, Right

By Joshua Holland, AlterNet. Posted October 13, 2005.


Don't believe what you hear from the White House and the Pentagon. We can leave Iraq anytime we please.
Stuck In Baghdad? Yeah, Right
Stuck In Baghdad? Yeah, Right
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It is no longer justifiable for reasonable people to support the war in Iraq, if it ever was. At this point, "staying the course" is neither logically nor morally defensible.

Believing in the war's ever-shifting goals and in the competence and motivation of those tasked to accomplish them is no longer a matter of ideology or party affiliation. When it comes to facts on the ground, we have reached a moment of clear division between the "reality-based community" and those willing to accept the storyline of the day from proven liars in the White House and the Pentagon.

We're almost back to the days of the "Five O'Clock Follies," when the military told a frankly disbelieving press corps that everything was going swimmingly in Vietnam. Now, top commanders testify to Congress that we have little hope of "winning" in Iraq, and then go on the cable news show circuit and say that just the opposite is true.

With such a stark disconnect, it's no longer possible to tolerate differences about whether the war should be seen through to its questionable end.

We're not stuck in Iraq for the reasons the foreign policy elite in Washington would have us believe. We're not stuck there by history, or by the threat of the country devolving into civil war (although that's a troubling reality we need to face). We're stuck in Iraq because we have a leadership that wants to be "stuck" there, and a strategic class that lives in a bubble formed of its own endlessly repeated blather about "Vietnam syndromes" and "failed states" and "Powell doctrines." And we're stuck because making Iraq into an example of U.S. dominance and undoing the taint of Vietnam, or "finishing what we started" during the first Gulf War remain the goals of other constituents in Bush's foreign policy world.

But most of all, we're stuck in Iraq because the burden of fighting the war has fallen disproportionally on rural, small-town America -- on the poor and the middle class -- while the benefits of a wide-open, ultra-liberal Iraqi economy and access to what may be the world's largest oil reserves are still on course to line the pockets of the administration's backers. And as long as they have the cover of pro-war Democrats and the shelter of their liberal media conspiracy theories, it's a lot easier for them to pretend things aren't as bad as they obviously are in Iraq, and "stuck" we will remain.

As Antonia Juhasz wrote in the Los Angeles Times:

The Bush administration has succeeded in maintaining a stranglehold on issues such as public versus private ownership of resources, foreign access to Iraqi oil and U.S. control of the reconstruction effort -- all of which are still governed by administration policies put into place immediately after the invasion. The Bush economic agenda favors foreign interests -- American interests -- over Iraqi self-determination.

Is it worth the loss of American blood and treasure to "stay the course" in the hope that Iraq will become safe for foreign investors, or should we get out as soon as we can without making matters much worse than they are today? Keep in mind that Donald Rumsfeld told Fox News that "Insurgencies tend to go on five, six, eight, 10, 12 years."

The argument that we can't "cut and run" is as seductive as it is illogical: we broke Iraq, and now we have to put it back together. It's a moral argument that the public can't ignore, and, worst of all, it's a crutch for the Democratic establishment to keep the "get out of Iraq" position of its supporters at arm's length.

But it has three fatal problems. First, it assumes that the only way we can hope to influence the outcome in Iraq is through military occupation. Second, it ignores the Catch-22 that's plagued the Iraq adventure from the beginning: the fact that the occupation itself -- our military presence in yet another Muslim country -- is the primary source of instability. Finally, it assumes that we can learn from our mistakes and change our policies in Iraq -- that we can do the job better.

All of these are faith-based arguments, and we have to reject them. We would be well served to remember that U.S. troops remained in the Philippines for 94 years after we "liberated" them from the Spanish, and they remain today in Japan 61 years after its surrender and in Korea 52 years after the ceasefire that ended that "police action."


Digg!

Joshua Holland is an AlterNet staff writer.

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America traitors in Bush Fright House < --- WAR CRIMES
Posted by: Meremark on Oct 13, 2005 1:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The House of Representatives which does not investigate and then move Articles of Impeachment, for high and treasonous War Crimes, is a House of ill repute and possibly co-conspiring in sedition crimes.

Adding this session of Congress liable to Violation of Oath charges, resorted, by the next session of Congress.

In priority after Executive impeachments and Judicial impeachments.

Speaking of total impeachments of Evil Office occupants, as soon as that priority one is done, the Speaker of the next House is the next President, in '07 !!

Who could campaign for re-election in '08, whatever that does for all the dark horse, paddock-prancing, in the gate, pack of jockeying and positioning going on now with an eye on '08 expecting to see Bush still there.

Oh-eight is too late. World can't wait. (dot)com

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adp3d
Posted by: adp3d on Oct 13, 2005 3:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Joshua my friend, you have batted 1.000 in my view. There would be dancing in the streets all over Iraq if morning brought the complete absence of American presence. The insurgency would quickly wither and die. Now how do we sell that to the American people? I guess the body count just has to keep rising and our gutless "liberal" press decides that they are not owned by big Pharma and big Oil and big Beer and big Auto and all the other members of Bushs "base". It would help if congress were not owned by these entities but that is a seperate battle all its own. Where are the cultural icons speaking out and influencing the masses. This isn't happening like it did in the Viet Nam era. Maybe they are too busy making money...

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talking of the body count - US dead could be 9,000 now
Posted by: verite on Oct 13, 2005 3:58 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Number Of Iraq Casualties Is Double Official Figures

Says Puerto Rican Government - Over 4,000 US Dead

Coastal Post Online Article - July, 2005


http://www.coastalpost.com/05/07/03a_.html

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/print.asp?ID=3328


July 10, 2005


Excerpts only...

Official US. government reports on soldiers under US command killed in Iraq are so fragmented that they account for less than half of the total number, according to information uncovered as part of an inquiry by the Government of Puerto Rico regarding the total number of Puerto Rican war casualties.


This analysis was confirmed by El Diario/La Prensa's review of multiple documents, including official reports issued by the US Department of Defense, the Iraqi Ministry of the Interior & more than 230 battlefront reports, which reveal that more than 4,076 troops under US command have been killed in 799 days of battle.


This information contrasts markedly with the limited information on casualties generally issued by US military authorities, which focus only on US uniformed troops. These total 1,649.

In addition, RodrÌguez Beruff, warned that the reports should be reviewed on an ongoing basis, as he suspects that the number of casualties is even higher.

And...

9,000 Dead GIs In Iraq War?

US Military Report: The High Death Rates Exposed

By Brian Harring

Domestic Intelligence Reporter

http://tbrnews.org/Archives/a1654.htm


The claim is that those wounded, who died while on flights to Germany or while in German hospitals, have NOT been counted in the Iraq dead totals!


June 2005

Pentagon Figures Don't Add Up

By Jim

7-13-5

http://www.williambowles.info/iraq/2005/ us_casualty_figures.html

Despicable Deception - DOD Body Count Fraud

Ted Lang

http://www.rense.com/general66/decep.htm



Monstrous Lies Are Causing Christians

And Muslims To Kill Each Other

http://www.rense.com/general65/monstrousliesarecausing.htm
http://www.rense.com/general66/casualties.htm

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Iraq
Posted by: Tom Degan on Oct 13, 2005 4:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Remeber Condi Rice on Meet The Press in 2003? She told Tim Russert that we could be in and out of Iraq within a space of eighteen months. This shows haw arrogant these people are. It also reveals a deplorable ingnorance of history as the article makes clear.

We've got to get out of there and send a message to the rest of the world that we were had by the President of the United States and the tital wave of human shit that comprises his administration. When the Democrats regain control of the House and Senate in 2007, the first - and I mean very first - order of buisness has to be voting articles of impeachment.

During the Watergate mess, everyone knew that Nixon was sitting pretty as long as Spiro Agnew was vice-president. George W. Bush has that same advantage today with respect to Dick Cheney. When Agnew resigned in October of 1973, it was olnly a matter of time before Nixon fell of his own weight.

It's just something to ponder....

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY

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» RE: Iraq and something to ponder Posted by: kelly.nickell
Impeach Now!
Posted by: menckenman on Oct 13, 2005 4:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only solution is to get the slime out of office.

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Democratic Primary
Posted by: ReformerRay on Oct 13, 2005 6:21 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
John Kerry discarded his ace in his poker game with George Bush. He came to prominence by being an early advocate of bringing the troops home from Veitnam. Instead of building on his past decision, he tried to run away from it. It is very clear, in hindsight, that he should have touted his activities when he returned from Vietnam. An anti-war stance in 2004 would have been consistent with his change of mind during the Vietnam war. Apparently he was too proud to admit that he made a mistake in giving Bush support for invading Iraq. He should have repudiated his vote to support the war in Iraq; should have repudiated "stay the course" and should have laid out a program for early withdrawl of troops from Iraq. Had he done so, he could not have been labelled as irresolute. The election would have been fought over the main issue of the day - the Bush decision to invade Iraq.

I do not agree what the Democratic party needs a pledge to correct all the current ills(the ten points). What we need is a political candidate who shows strong leadership on the one or two main issues of the day.

The question for Democratic candidates in 2006 and 2008 should be: "What is your plan to restore the U. S. economy; to make the U. S. a better competitor in the world economy? What will you do to correct the mistakes made by the Bush administration?"

Only after vitality is restored to the production of tradable goods in the U. S. will this country be able to meet its other challenges.

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» RE: invading is stabilizing?? Posted by: cmorr176
It's Time To Go
Posted by: malcolmartin on Oct 13, 2005 6:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is some insight about our government’s detour into Iraq in its faux-War on Terror in a scene from the movie Godfather II. The scene is set in the Cuba of 1958 and mob boss Michael Corleone is on a mission to Havana to check on the family’s very lucrative business interests. He witnesses a rebel cornered by the authorities scream out “Viva Fidel” and detonate a grenade that kills himself and a police captain.

Later Corleone meets with Hyman Roth, a character based on mobster Meyer Lansky, and the following exchange ensues:

Corleone: A rebel was being arrested by the military police, and rather than be taken alive, he exploded a grenade he had hidden in his jacket. He killed himself and he took a capital of the command with him…it occurred to me the soldiers are paid to fight, the rebels aren’t.

Roth: What does that tell you?

Corleone: They can win.

Recent polls indicate that the vast majority of the American people believe the U.S. cannot or will not win in Iraq. These Americans are simply drawing from that same well of common sense as the fictional Michael Corleone did in the film.

Our youth are trapped in this deadly imperial war in Iraq based on loyalty to their Commander-in-Chief George W. Bush. Otherwise they have no stake whatsoever. They are motivated only by the common peril they face. U.S. soldiers are fighting for their own survival and for their brothers and sisters-in-arms next to them in a hostile place far from home.

This past April one of Iraq’s insurgent groups issued a statement that concluded, “We are coming.” A tidal wave of attacks, suicide and otherwise, followed that turned May and June of 2005 into unspeakably bloody months for U.S. and Iraqi government forces. Who will win in Iraq? Try to imagine any American, military or civilian, willing to enlist in a suicide mission, much less shouting “Viva Bush” as they perished for the noble cause he has fabricated. Compare the act of gladly giving up your life for an insurgency with the government of an occupation force that will not even slightly discomfort its rich with higher taxes.

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» RE: It's Time To Go Posted by: Barnacle Bill
what about reality?
Posted by: kablooie on Oct 13, 2005 6:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What about the reality shift occurring as people all over the world see that we can't continue to fight each other when natural disasters cannot even be mitigated when the vast majority of the world's resources remain dedicated to war?

Obsoletism -- the new "-ism" -- means that we'll be brought to our knees, all right, but more likely by Mother Nature than Big Daddy & His Fightin' Posse Dudes.

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» RE: what about reality? Posted by: kelly.nickell
The US has an empire to build and bases to protect.
Posted by: jreinhart1 on Oct 13, 2005 7:37 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As the empire expands, more troops will be needed to protect the ever increasing bases being built. There are four very large bases and ten others that, evidently, both democrats and republicans believe must be protected forever. Just as the three in Afghanistan must stay to protect OUR oil pipeline from the Caspian sea.

I didn't see more than 3 in the legislative branch that want to bring our troops home. I believe that they are to be considered cannon fodder until those bases can remain their without harm. Then it's off to the next country to spread democracy.

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Interesting article. Some counterpoints.
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Oct 13, 2005 7:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As the author points out, the vote to ratify (in draft form, apparently) the new Iraqi constitution is as good time as any to announce that an exit plan is in place. There is ample justification for leaving the specifics (probably to much public dismay) largely secret.

The author's (and senator's) suggestion that we ask the U.N. to takes a somewhat ignorant view of past "U.N. peacekeeping operations". If our highly trained and highly coordinated military can't get the job done, what makes anyone think adding blue helmets, a variety of different equipment, per-nation variable regimental and battalion personnel and mission structuring, and a host (literally) of different languages can be any more effective. Does anyone believe that the U.N. will commit more boots on the ground? What startling successes of U.N. intervention can we point to? Is anyone familiar with OPERATION INTERFET--a very worthy, however completely disorganized peace keeping operation coordinated laregly by English-speaking nations?

I'm not saying the U.N. couldn't help fix it--just that there is simply no reasonable expectation that the U.N. is capable, nor has there been any indication that the U.N. is willing.

On the issue of the potential civil war, the author paints two grim pictures: that "low-level" is already occuring, and that vast civil war would erupt in the event of a power vacuum brought about by U.S. departure. Everyone would PROBABLY agree that the departure of the U.S. would bring about state-wide, large-scale civil war. Therefore, the degree of "immorality" in continuing to fight an "immoral war" against foreign terrorists and domestic insurgents bent on derailing the Iraqi democratic process becomes moot.

As long as there are representative processes going on in Iraq--the interim election of an Iraqi parliament, the referendum on the constitution--we have an obligation to do our best to protect those who engage in civic change in Iraq. That does include getting the hell as soon as possible, but it also places the responsibility of seeing that the new representative government has--at the very least--a ghost of a chance: a uniformed, trained police force and national guard, an equitable justice system, and a constitutional means of civic change should the need for further change arise.

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» What a load.....same old same old Posted by: Michiganman
» Armchair intelectual Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Armchair intelectual [sic] Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Armchair illusions Posted by: Michiganman
» Wrong answer. Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Wrong answer. Posted by: kelly.nickell
» Unfortunately... Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Minority opinion Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Supporting violence Posted by: Michiganman
» Alrighty then...... Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Armchair illusions Posted by: nexalacer
» RE: Armchair illusions x2 Posted by: Michiganman
» Support for ABF Part 1 Posted by: Danielhh
» Support for ABF Part 2 Posted by: Danielhh
» Appreciated. Posted by: ABetterFuture
» DanH Support for ABF and the war. Posted by: Michiganman
» ABetterFuture....good one. Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: ABetterFuture....good one. Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: ABetterFuture....good one. Posted by: Captainmagic
Bravo!
Posted by: ScottP on Oct 13, 2005 8:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wouldn't it be excellent if Americans would read thoughtful pieces like this instead of sitting in front of the TV's sucking in propaganda? I'm not holding my breath, I thought Vietnam taught us a lesson, but it appears most residents of our nation are incapable of learning in any significant fashion.

I tend to agree with other responders who don't think waiting for the UN should be used as an excuse to delay withdrawal. Today there is a puppet regime in Iraq that drafted an illegal constitution, that regime won't hold up, they should be allowed to fail. The UN would send in a different batch of foreign occupiers who would also be rejected. We must leave, no conditions, no strings. The concept that it would be immoral for us to do as the people of Iraq ask us to (leave now) has to be the most vicious myth possible.

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The Bull can't fix the China Shop
Posted by: asque on Oct 13, 2005 8:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bush, and his "Bull" are loose in the China Shop. We cannot fix the shop using the same "Bull" that distroyed it. The first step in fixing Iraq must be to remove the military-the "Bull" that destroyed it, while at home we must at least work reveal that Bush's Bull is full of B-$h1t.

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$200 million/day should be spent fixing Iraq!
Posted by: flacteMnaD on Oct 13, 2005 9:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We spend roughly $200 million per day to support the occupation in Iraq, and that money would be much better spent in the rebuilding of Iraq. Pull out the troops, work with the Arab States & UN to make sure Iraq has assistance to get back on their feet again. Start spending money under Iraqi direction to get things rebuilt - not by American contractors, but by Iraqi contractors. We can make a deal with them for discounted oil for 10 years to help pay off some of the financial assistance we put into the country. (We did after all do most of the breaking!)

Do I think it will happen? I really hope so, but unless the country really gets into an uproar the current administration will just "stay the course." It really has turned into another Vietnam where it will be up to the people to say enough is enough since the government doesn't know when to stop.

People need to realize that war is never "good" for anyone. (Except those making money off of it!) War is expensive for both sides in terms of money, life, liberty, sanity & health. It's time to realize that without an exit strategy in place there's no way this will end, and it's up to the people of the USA to demand that exit strategy.

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Somewhat misleading
Posted by: shannonwhite on Oct 13, 2005 9:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I read the article you linked http://www.coastalpost.com/05/07/03a_.html expecting to find that the official US casualty figures are false. But that's not what I found. The article accepts the official US figure for uniformed US killed but indicates that if one includes British, other foreign and Iraqi army casualties, then the number killed is 4000+. Hardly a revelation.

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As we leave, we need to move minorities out of harm's way
Posted by: janvdb on Oct 13, 2005 9:35 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe that we need to accept the fact that the Sunnis, the Shiites and the Kurds lack sufficient trust to live together under a multi-ethnic army and police. Each ethnicity has already built up its own army and police and each will rely on their own to protect their own territory.

We can't train up an army, while Moqtada Al Sadr and Zarqawi can -- because we are trying to force the ethnicities together and they are forming ethnically-segregated forces which can form reliable bonds with one another.

Iraqs three ethnicities are very likely to split up into three regions/countries when we leave and the dominant group in each is very likely to massacre and expel the minorities left there.

This is, in fact, already happening. The Sunnis are bombing Shiite festivals and mosques. The Shiites are dressing in police uniforms and giving the Sunnis a little Saddam treatment in the middle of the night. Homes of Arabs in Kurdistan are being surrounded by mobs and trashed.

It's only going to get worse when we leave.

I think we have a responsibility to help the Shiites in Baghdad -- which the Sunnis will control -- move south into Shiite-controlled areas where they will be safe from the mass slaughter they suffered the last time a Bush messed with Iraq. 100,000 were killed then. How many are living in Sadr City? How many will survive a break-up of Iraq? Ditto for Sunni and Kurdish minorities in areas controlled by the other ethnicities.

We should start a program of buying homes from Sadr City dwellers, block by block (giving them money to move south) and selling those homes to Sunnis being evacuated from Mosul. We should offer relocation assistance to all minorities who wish to move.

If we fail to do this, we will once again have blood on our hands. As Bush I withdrew, thousands were murdered in cold blood and buried in huge mass graves -- are we set to do that again?

Jan VanDenBerg

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» Didn't the nazis do that? Posted by: Michiganman
americanpolitico
Posted by: americanpolitico on Oct 13, 2005 10:44 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The real complications of exiting Iraq have less to do with soldiers than with contractors. Why has no one brought up KBR's exit? The administration is more willing to give up the lives of young men than their profits and that of their cronies.

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Ronie Ray-Gun's Legacy PART 1
Posted by: stoney13 on Oct 13, 2005 10:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh how lovely!! What a big mess we have in Iraq! NOW I'M GONNA TELL YOU WHY!!!!!!!

Think it's all Sudam's fault!! Well guess who put him in power!!! WE DID!!! In the second Ba'athist Rebelion we gave him all the under-the-table support we could to keep what happened in Iran from happening in Iraq!!

Remember the Shaw? We put him in power with Britain's help. Why? So BP, Shell, and Sinclair could rape the country's oil reserves with impunity!

He finally got fed up with being bashed by his citizens for giving away his country's most valuable resource, so IRAN not Saudi Arabia started the oil embargo by shutting off the valve in early 1972. American auto manufacturers were privy to this information and began grinding out pintos and vegas to try and stave off the Japanese invasion which was sure to come very very soon.

Gerald Ford knew that he had more of a chance of flying to the moon on his own flatulence than winning the presidency in 1976. After all Watergate was a tough stain to scrub even with all the pardons he signed for "Tricky Dick and the Merry Plumbers 4" which pretty much corked any further public investigations of their daring deeds.What better way to deal with the Democrats than to leave them a big mess to clean up in 1976.

All support for the Shaw was pulled! Nobody would buy the oil now because we handily turned the market against Iran. This led the people to revolt and brought Komenni rolling in from France to seize power in an unstoppable coup! This led to the ugly mess with the hostages and the fiascos concerning them.

ENTER RONNIE RAY-GUN!!! Reagan knew all about the Ayatollah and his fearless camel jockeys. They needed arms and ordinance to fight a great "Jihad" against the lowly Sunni infidels who had stolen half of Persia and divided the grand country in twain!! Such must not be!!! Persia must be the home-land for only the Sheite sect of Islam!!

NOW IT GETS GOOD!!!!!
Along comes a wild man from the Ba'athist Party in Iraq who had just been run out of the country by the ruling class. Ronie set about swapping out American arms for the American hostages in Iran. Then he gives all manner of aid to Sadam Husein as soon as he got seated in the Oval Office. After Sadam was seated on Bagdad, and promply had all those who didn't agree with him killed. Ronie sent him all manners of toxic chemicals to play with!!

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» RE: onie Ray-Gun's Legacy PART 1 Posted by: kelly.nickell
If You Support the WAR Go to Iraq
Posted by: Newsguy on Oct 13, 2005 11:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyone, of draft age who really supports this bloody awful war should immediately sign up and go fight it. The military needs you. Anyone beyond draft age should be buying Kevlar vests and rifle scopes and sending them to the troops deprived of them by this stupid, sociopathic administration.

Every time I see one of those moronic yellow magnetic ribbons on an SUV in a parking lot, I have the urge to rip it off and stuff it into the gas tank. Fortunately, I suppress the urge.

Too bad Bush couldn't suppress his urge to kill people and break things. --Newsguy
http://kalamazoopride.blogspot.com

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Ronie Ray-Gun's Legacy PART 2
Posted by: stoney13 on Oct 13, 2005 11:15 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Regan promptly pointed his new attack dog at Tehran and said "Sic 'em, boy!", and sic 'em he did!! He jumped on Iran like a bulldog on a biscuit!

Iran now had something to use all their shiney new American ordinance on, and became a minor pain in the ass rather than the major mind f#@ck they would have been had it not been for Sadam.

All this fighting around the Persian Gulf meant two of the major producers of light sweet crude oil (The best for refining ), were selling their resources at bargain basement prices to finance their respective wars!!

This was all to good to last and it came to a screaching halt around 1990 when Sadam bankrupted his country fighting his neighbor and sent an olive branch to Iran.

The people of Iran too had wearied of this whole 'Jihad to Unite Persia" thing and had decided to take the olive branch, shake hands with Sadam, and get back to whatever it is that Alah allows.

Kuwait, in the meantime had been selling their oil at bargain basement prices too and saw no reason to stop now! Hell! Business was good!! The Americans couldn't get enough of it!! Sadam was trying to get his bankrupt country back on its feet. But he couldn't as long as Kuwait was keeping the oil prices so low.

ENTER BUSH ONE!
Bush One popped on the scene about the time all this was going on' and needed something to take America's mind off the fact he nothing but a two-legged prick so far removed from the real world it was painfull!! Sadam ran this plan for invading Kuwait by certain persons at the State Deparment who thought it was a dandy idea!!! The rest is history!

WHAT WE NEED TO DO PEOPLE IS TO GET THE HELL OUT OF THE PERSIAN GULF, AND BUY THESE PEOPLE'S OIL INSTEAD OF STEALING IT WITH ALL THIS INTRIGUE!! NO WONDER NOBODY TRUSTS US OVER THERE!!! LOOK AT OUR RECORD!!!

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Military Occupation is a War Crime
Posted by: david.model@senecac.on.ca on Oct 13, 2005 11:37 AM   
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The debate about whether to withdraw U.S. troops from Iraq is suprefluous. Their presence in Iraq is a war crime which means they should not have been there in the first place.

The war itself is a war of aggression and is illegal because it fails the two criteria for a legal war. A war must either be an act of self-defense or authorized by the Security Council. In order for an act of aggression to be considered self-defense it must be imminent and no such threat existed. There was also no SecurityCouncil resolution authorizing the use of force and no previous resolution can be applied to this case.

The bombing of Iraq violates the Geneva Conventions and the United Nations Charter while the military occupation violates the Geneva Conventions, the Convention on Torture and the United Nations Charter which prohibits the violation of the territorial integrity or independence of any state (as documented in my latest book "Lying for Empire: How to Commit War Crimes with a Straight Face").

Based on these violations of international law the military occupation is a war crime and the troops should be withdrawn because their presence in Iraq is illegal. Whether they should be withdrawn is not debatable and Bush's justifications for their remaining in Iraq are irrelevant.

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A Point That Is Always Missed
Posted by: cyclone on Oct 13, 2005 12:29 PM   
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While I appreciate and agree with this article, most seem to miss a very important point in the overall picture of this war, and all the other wars this group of nuts have in the works.

THIS WAR WEAKENS OUR ABILITY TO DEFEND OURSELVES. We have always managed to build and maintain the greatest fighting force known to man. If we can't defeat you any other way, we can damn sure blow your ass up. Always been the case, always will.......Or will it?

We consume vast resources of oil, war machinery and human lives, while at the same time bankrupting ourselves financially as well as morally. You think our enemies, spoken or unspoken, don't pay attention to these things? As we borrow money from China because we can't finance our own greedful lust for anything and everything we want, do we believe that our enemies don't notice?

Our enemies are merely biding their time, watching us crumble from within, waiting for when the time is right. When China and others no longer finance our every whim by pulling their money out of our stock market, when the poor of America no longer accept blood money to join the service, when we can no longer afford to manufacture the very tools of war that we so gleefully use to massacre people, our enemies will pounce on us like a pit bull on raw meat.

That is the price we will pay if we "stay the course."

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» RE: Time Warp Posted by: cyclone
Along comes a wild man from the Ba'athist Party in Iraq who had just been run out of the country by
Posted by: WhatNow? on Oct 13, 2005 12:38 PM   
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"Along comes a wild man from the Ba'athist Party in Iraq who had just been run out of the country by the ruling class."

SoDamn had been in power at least since july of 1968. Maybe even longer since he was second in command since around 1960.

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US out of Iraq
Posted by: gp on Oct 13, 2005 12:54 PM   
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All the reasons on why the US should stay in Iraq are little more than a litany of flummeries.

Calls for a social engineering that involves the redistribution of Iraq's population at a massive scale are appalling. Hasn't the US already "relocated" people from Fallujah and Tal-Afar?

What I read are nothing but ad-hoc rationalisations, and excuses for barbaric a act : The invasion of a sovereign nation that posed no threat to the US.

Don't minscontrue this post as a defense of Saddam Hussein's regime. But what the US are doing to the Iraqis would make Hussein proud: razing entire cities and neighbourhoods, illegal emprisonments, torture, rapes, and killings. All this --and more-- will continue as long as the US stay in Iraq.

The only thing that really counts, is the wish of the people of Iraq --and they want the US out of their country. They say it with bullets, and with road-side bombs that kill and maim US soldiers. Iraq's National Assembly --the legal body that is supposed to represent all Iraqis-- have already asked for an time table for the withdrawal of foreign troops from their country. When will that happen?

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NO! NO! "move minorities out of harm" - J.VanDenBerg
Posted by: Meremark on Oct 13, 2005 12:55 PM   
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NO! NO! Iraq occupation is NOT the beltway-bubble fiction. Don't drink the dogma.

Contract merCIAnaries are "bombing Shiite festivals" and framing Sunnis.
Contract merCIAnaries are "dressing in police ... treatment" and framing Shiites.
All the powder and plastique blowing up, and killing American soldiers, is Made in USA.
There are NO munitions factories in Iraq -- every inch of the land is under surveillance. Any bombs there are imported, from CIA-USA or a proxy.

IRAQ is a WAR GAME. Think Red Army / Blue Army -- they are both paid by the same taxpayers. Neither side wins. It is supposed to go on and on. When one side gets the upper hand, the GAME Player aids the underdog. When that reverses, the WAR-addiction Pusher supplies the new underdog.

That was CIA-USA role in Iran - Iraq War, 1980-89: 'We'll hold your coat, You and Him fight' -- keep it going and they wipe each other out. When Iran got ahead, WE 'couldn't let Iran win (they exposed CIA agents in the Embassy hostages they took,'79), so WE gave Saddam, our underdog buddy, gasses and ballistics and the satellite intelligence to aim them, our help ... not too much, not enough ballistics for Iraq to win, only. keep. it. going.

'World chessboard' watchers, (such as www.FromTheWilderness.com -- Link, Read S.O.S., Donate URGENT), discuss CIA-USA aim to fractionalize Iraq, so a smaller plebiscite runs the isolated oil-containing region since smaller nations are easier to bully, 'We'll take that oil.' The oil district is where the permanent bases go.

CIA-USA "works in strange and mysterious ways." What a coincidence that exactly this week, the Historical Precedent for decomposing Iraq surfaced in The Legitimate Press: "LAWRENCE of ARABIA’s VISION for the Middle East has been revealed in a map he created after the First World War" -- The Times, Oct.12..
"His (1915) sympathy for the cause of Arab self-determination is well known, but the full details contained in the map eluded historians because it was filed at the National Archives under the wrong date.
"The map, which goes on display at the Imperial War Museum on Friday, shows his proposals for a state in northern Iraq similar to one now demanded by Kurdish separatists, and a large territory ...."

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» I'm just about there...... Posted by: Michiganman
Trying To Be A Wrench In The Works
Posted by: badger on Oct 13, 2005 1:26 PM   
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Re: newspoll reporting that American's support for the Iraq war at an all-time low ...
Besides man-on-the-street comments and our taxes being wasted on this heinous war, what else is it one does to "support" a war like this? How does one effectively NOT support a war? ... I've been in many protest marches, boycotted corporations that proclaim support or otherwise benefit from this war, written letters to politicians denouncing Bush's war for oil, hell, even get laughed at because I choose to bike to work instead of driving, as I figure driving a car raises demand for oil that "justifies" Bush's war! What else can I do ... Suggestions, anyone?

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» RE: Can't do a DAMN thing Posted by: cyclone
» RE: Can't get the truth Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Can't do a DAMN thing Posted by: stoney13
Yup, Tried This, Too
Posted by: badger on Oct 13, 2005 2:12 PM   
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Oh, yeah ... I've also voted against the warmongers - but as we've seen, that doesn't work either

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Why Schadenfreude is Bad for Democrats
Posted by: maxpayne on Oct 13, 2005 4:59 PM   
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JAMES HARRIS ATHOL IDAHO
Posted by: god on Oct 13, 2005 7:42 PM   
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i USED TO STICK UP FOR THE CLINTONS ,BOTH HILLARY AND BILL,i WILL NO LONGER DO THAT.i WILL DO EVERYTHING I CAN TO MAKE SURE THAT NOBODY WHO VOTED TO GO TO WAR IN IRAQ IS EVER ELECTED PRESIDENT.YOU BUNCH OF BLOOD THIRSTY IDIOT COWARDS CAN GO TO HELL WERE YOU ALL BELONG.YOUR COWARDICE HAS COST 1000SNDS OF INOCENT LIVES.THIS IS ISANE AND WRONG.GET OUT OF IRAQ YOU BASTERDS!

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Magnetic Ribbons and the Yellowcake of Faith
Posted by: rockpicker on Oct 13, 2005 8:22 PM   
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When we wake puking shame
at last, and know the dream
for sham, embraced en masse...
When bells that rang victorious
hang mute, their tarnished claims
ignored in disrepute, and
bitter sons, having been all they
could be, can't wish back innocence
or the leg below the knee...

(This brash regime's trimmed reason
from its ranks, its black guard
in the street, protecting flanks.)

...then will we heed the schemers'
gloating leer? "There's no future
for any of you here."
Row on row, with hand
in trembling hand, it's come to this.
WE DREAMERS BETTER STAND!


Thanks, Cy

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paranoid pollyanna
Posted by: Linda on Oct 13, 2005 10:10 PM   
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I remember seeing bulldozers covering a huge trench in the Iraqi sand, forming a mass grave holding dead Iraqi Republican Guard soldiers. That really stayed with me.

This Bush's War in Iraq, the CBS late nite news, last week had a segment where the reporter interviewed wounded soldiers. The story was about how the ingenious military medical people have come up with amazing, ingenious new plastic skull sections, to replace parts of the skull blown away by I.E.D.s

While these Doctors are doing the best they can for our wounded soldiers, the war continues to provide new "guinea pigs". In previous wars, of course, the military would put METAL plates in a soldier's head.

So, our leaders have made amazing medical progress thanks to the Iraq War: in new medical prosthetics, such as these plastic skull parts, bionic arms & legs, etc.

But, they haven't found a way to replace brain matter destroyed when an I.E.D explodes. I.E.D.'s which aren't so "improvised" anymore.

While our military is learning, our enemies are learning, while they infiltrate the Iraqi police & Army. And I'm sure the 1,000 Iraqi prisoners released from Abu Ghraib over Ramadan, now just really love Americans after staying as guests in one of our lovely prisons!

Yes, we're making progress in Iraq, Mr. President!!

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No Way Out…
Posted by: CatDad on Oct 13, 2005 10:43 PM   
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Based on historic precedents I don’t see a way out extricating ourselves from this catastrophe. From history, we know that the USA will never accept a defeat in war. The only way around this is for the government to accept a Nixonian “Peace with Honor.” This refers to the profoundly cynical 1973 Paris Peace Treaty which “ended” the unwinnable war in Vietnam. In actuality, this was only a face saving ploy to delay defeat. The treaty kept Vietcong troops in S. Vietnam, ensuring that our corrupt ally would fall.

The USA will not just abruptly pull out. This is politically impossible. There is no room for a Nixonian “Peace with Honor” here either. Nixon was blessed with just one insurgency, the Vietcong, with whom political negotiations were possible. With Iraq we have a multitude of insurgencies: former Baathist Army officers, Iraqi Shiite homegrown insurgents, foreign Al Queda insurgents, more foreign Syrian and Iranian insurgents. How are we going to start a peace negotiation when a major precept of our foreign policy is that we don’t negotiate with terrorists?

Our military is maxing out with the current troop rotations. Look for a withdrawal to a smaller, yet permanent core of about 40,000 troops to defend the oil fields. Dubya wanted, and got, a war…which he viewed as being critical for a “real” leader and for “political capital.” The transnational oil companies got what they wanted: free market access to the world’s largest reserves of easily-extractable oil. Israeli intelligence got what they wanted too. They (correctly) looked on the USA as being a big, dumb superpower whom they can manipulate into destroying their political enemies in the Middle East. Now, this big, dumb superpower has permanently gotten itself embroiled into the 2,000 year-old, eternal Middle East tribal/religious conflict. You can give all the “moral” arguments you want to about why we should leave. The reality is that we are there to stay, albeit on a smaller level, in the newly-ruined nation of Iraq.

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» RE: No Way Out… Posted by: gp
» WAY...... Posted by: Michiganman
» WAY. Way right now. Posted by: Meremark
» No POLITICAL Way Out Posted by: CatDad