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War on Iraq

Another Embarrassment for Bush

By Robert Scheer, AlterNet. Posted August 31, 2005.


No amount of crowing over a fig leaf Iraqi constitution by President Bush can hide the fact that the region's autocrats, theocrats and terrorists are stronger than ever.
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Who lost Iraq?

Someday, as a fragmented Iraq spirals further into religious madness, terrorism and civil war, there will be a bipartisan inquiry into this blundering intrusion into another people's history. The crucial question will be why a "preemptive" American invasion -- which has led to the deaths of nearly 2,000 Americans, roughly 10 times as many Iraqis, the expenditure of about $200 billion and incalculable damage to the United States' global reputation -- has had exactly the opposite effect predicted by its neoconservative sponsors.

No amount of crowing over a fig leaf Iraqi constitution by President Bush can hide the fact that the region's autocrats, theocrats and terrorists are stronger than ever.

"The U.S. now has to recognize that [it] overthrew Saddam Hussein to replace him with a pro-Iranian state," said regional expert Peter W. Galbraith, the former U.S. ambassador to Croatia and an advisor to the Iraqi Kurds. And, he could have added, a pro-Iranian state that will be repressive and unstable.

Think this is an exaggeration? Consider that arguably the most powerful Shiite political party and militia in today's Iraq, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq and its affiliated paramilitary force, the Badr Brigade, was not only based in Iran but was set up by Washington's old arch-foe, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. It also fought on the side of Iran in the Iran-Iraq war and was recognized by Tehran as the government in exile of Iraq.

Or that former exile Ahmad Chalabi is now one of Iraq's deputy prime ministers. The consummate political operator managed to maintain ties to Iran while gaining the devoted support of Donald Rumsfeld's Pentagon, charming and manipulating Beltway policymakers and leading U.S. journalists into believing that Iraq was armed with weapons of mass destruction.

Chalabi is thrilled with the draft constitution, which, if passed, will probably exponentially increase tension and violence between Sunnis and Shiites. "It is an excellent document," said Chalabi, who has been accused by U.S. intelligence of being a spy for Iran, where he keeps a vacation home.

What an absurd outcome for a war designed to create a compliant, unified and stable client state that would be pro-American, laissez-faire capitalist and unallied with the hated Iran. Of course, Bush tells us again, this is "progress" and an "inspiration." Yet his relentless spinning of manure into silk has worn thin on the American public and sent his approval ratings tumbling.

Even supporters of the war are starting to realize that rather than strengthening the United States' position in the world, the invasion and occupation have led to abject humiliation: from the Abu Ghraib scandal, to the guerrilla insurgency exposing the limits of military power, to an election in which "our guy" -- Iyad Allawi -- was defeated by radicals and religious extremists.

In a new low, the U.S. president felt obliged to call and plead with the head of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution, Abdelaziz Hakim, to make concessions to gain Sunni support. Even worse, he was summarily rebuffed. Nevertheless, Bush had no choice but to eat crow and like it.

"This is a document of which the Iraqis, and the rest of the world, can be proud," he said Sunday, through what must have been gritted teeth. After all, this document includes such democratic gems as "Islam is the official religion of the state and is a basic source of legislation," and "No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam," as well as socialist-style pronouncements that work and a decent standard of living are a right guaranteed by the state. But the fact is, it could establish Khomeini's ghost as the patron saint of Iraq and Bush would have little choice but to endorse it.

Even many in his own party are rebelling. "I think our involvement there has destabilized the Middle East. And the longer we stay there, I think the further destabilization will occur," said Nebraska Sen. Chuck Hagel last week, one of a growing number of Republicans who get that "we should start figuring out how we get out of there."

Not that our "what-me-worry?" president is the least bit troubled by all this adverse blowback from the huge, unnecessary gamble he took in invading the heart of the Arab and Muslim worlds. "What is important is that the Iraqis are now addressing these issues through debate and discussion, not at the barrel of a gun," Bush said.

Wrong again. It was the barrel of a gun that midwifed the new Iraq, which threatens to combine the instability of Lebanon with the religious fanaticism of Iran.

Digg!

Robert Scheer is the co-author of The Five Biggest Lies Bush Told Us About Iraq.

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You need to give them time
Posted by: flatulence11 on Aug 31, 2005 2:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They are in the first stages of democracy. No country , including the United States, got it right the first time. Its a start, and they will make amendments and get better.
As far as bushs ratings slipping, theyre definitely slipping with liberals, but then again, liberals have always hated him.
so everything is ok!

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» RE: You need to give them time Posted by: Captainmagic
» RE: You need to give them time Posted by: Captainmagic
» IGNORE THE TROLLS! Posted by: Velos
» RE: You need to give them time Posted by: NickWarner
» RE: You need to give them time Posted by: rotorooter
» RE: You need to give them HELL Posted by: elmandingo
» RE: You need to give them time Posted by: itchyvet
» RE: You need to give them time Posted by: WallsyinBorås
Damage Eternal
Posted by: Tom Degan on Aug 31, 2005 3:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I might have said this before but I'm compelled to say it again: Fifty years from now the president of the United States, whoever he or she may be - who in all likelihood hasn't even been born yet - will still, on a daily basis be dealing with the incalcuable damage that this hideous bastard and the tide of human shit that comprise his administration, did to their once great country so many years before.
Pray for peace.
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY

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» RE: Damage Eternal Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: Damage Eternal Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Damage Eternal Posted by: nakis
» RE: Damage Eternal Posted by: jag585
» RE: Damage Eternal Posted by: cyclone
» RE: Damage Eternal Posted by: Robespierre
» RE: Damage Eternal Posted by: cyclone
» to robespierre Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: Damage Eternal Posted by: JoeEbola
» RE: Damage Eternal Posted by: drmeow
» to drmeow Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: To All Posted by: Captainmagic
Before Saddam vs after.
Posted by: Quendi on Aug 31, 2005 3:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Before the USA backed Saddam against Iranians and thus solidified his power base, Iraq was perhaps the best hope in the Muslim Middle East for a truly modern, potentially democratic, secular state. It had a better educated workforce than any country in the region except perhaps Israel, a large, pro-Western, largely secularized middle class which generated a lot of economic activity not directly related to oil, and had managed to hold together as a country for decades, despite its diverse and squabbling factions.
Now, after the boys in Washington got tired of their little puppet and deposed him, killing a whole lot of Iraquis in the process and destroying a fairly well functioning infrastructure which the country still possessed, the place is on the verge of becoming just another Islamic tin-pot theocratic state closely aligned with Iran, which is currently in the process of actively developing that "Islamic Bomb" which the Bushies used as a lame excuse to invade and occupy the country in the first place!! It is a lawless, chaotic place with rampant cronyism and corruption in its government, the clerics are gaining more power by the day (recall how "democratic" the recent Iranian elections were.......) and a prolific breeding ground for all that is worst in the current Middle East Mess. I submit that the badly bungled occupation has made matters immesurably worse than it was previously, and that continuing to plod along using the same failed tactics - which is what the rabid neocons in charge of the situation wish to do - can only make the situation even worse still. The corner has indeed been turned, Mr. Busman and associates, but what's on the other side is truly frightening.

From New Scotland,
Quantum.

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Democracy in Iraq?
Posted by: WallsyinBorås on Aug 31, 2005 4:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have to respond to the fellow who claimed what Iraq is going through right now is a period of democratic teething problems. The much researched fact of the matter is, is that for the introduction of any democratic system to work in a country, there has to have been a previous, many years long (if not centuries), democratic process ongoing. Of course, as this implies, it would have to be a democratic process indigenous to that country. The imposition of something called "democracy" in Iraq by a foreign power runs counter to any desired democratic development (how that may manifest itself). Iraq is not the US, and it is haute arrogance to attempt to create it in its likeness. Iraq, as one previous poster pointed out, was a country with the potential to become the most secular and democratic society in the region. I say potentially because Saddam Hussein tried his best to quell many freedoms and to oppress Shias and Kurds alike. At the same time, however, Iraq was to a large degree secular, housing a government comprising Kurds, Chrisitians, Shia and Sunnis. Womens rights were too protected under these secular conditions and had Iraqis been allowed the chance, they would eventually have ousted their dictator and would have skillfully made the transition from an oppressive regime within a secular framework to a, perhaps, more egalitarian secular society. Bush's war has destroyed any chance of this happening, however, and has created the beginings of an ongoing catastrophe which will haunt us for years to come. If Bush wanted a civil war à la 1776 he certainly got more than he bargained for. If he assumes that any of this has to do with democracy, he is terribly mistaken. This foolish imbecile has succeeded in achieving nothing more than hubris, and he has destroyed the lives and futures of many innocent people. Furthermore, he has created a greater groundswell of hatred and terrorism aimed at the US and UK, which will blowback us on ways unimaginable (then again, 9/11 was unimaginable). The right wing punditry still believes, howver, in overnight democratisation; through demonstraion elections and a dictated constitution (one which, incidentally, carries through all of Bremer's 100 illegal orders). It is time for BUsh to stand down, before things get steadily worse.

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:-)
Posted by: AL-CIA-DA on Aug 31, 2005 5:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
lol i laugh at you pitiful fools who believe you actually live in SECULAR socities.... you americans whose president believes that god told him to attack iraq actually think that's secular? the same president spending hundreds of millions of your taxpayers dollars in "faith-based" initiatives (yeh i really bet he's giving your tax money to non-fundamentalist christian faiths *heavy sarcasm*).... so much for your seperation of church from state.... clearly: "in god you trust". when you look at the fundi-christian, zionist, neo-conservative yoke you live on, i wonder how you survive. you're not shackled by one religion, but many.

as for "iraq", its not really anymore f@#$ed up than it has been for the last 100 years. i wouldnt place all your blame on bush, the british and french did most of the great damage to the middle east when they divided it up into various nations that hadnt existed as known entities in the history of mankind.

the worst thing they ever did was facilitate the breakup of the ottoman empire. if you look at history the muslim world by and large spent close to 1400 years being ruled by long dynasties of rulers, and for the most part, it was a very unified kind of place. sure there was fighting between groups and different caliphates based upon different beliefs , but for the most part, it was one region run by one group, whether it was the "righteous caliphs" or the abssasids or the ummayids or the fatimids or the mamlukes and ottomans etc.. it really irks americans to find out how long they were paying tribute to the mamlukes

now, i ask you, what do you have? you have a massive region broken up into 30 odd different countries, filled with innumerable groups, innumerable ideologies, innumerable crap. it would've been better to have left it in one giant lump, because it would've been easier for the world to deal with. just like russia is easier for the world to deal with on a global scale even if it does have different groups, ethnicities, religions etc, china and india are other good examples..

the western capitalist-imperial divide and conquer disease is the real problem here, not any in a long line of coke snorting, piss sinking, arrogant slackjawed yokel western statesmen. they are merely the infected carcasses spreading the purile virus.

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» RE: -) Posted by: AL-CIA-DA
» RE: -) Posted by: kmeyer
wouldnt fit :-(
Posted by: AL-CIA-DA on Aug 31, 2005 5:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the world doesnt NEED democracy, it doesnt NEED secularism, it doesnt need western hegemony opressing it and stealing its dignity and resources... it doesnt NEED a lot of shit. the quicker the world woke up to the fact that everyone would be a lot better off if we could all keep our opinions and hands to ourselves, the better!! there are no universal rights, no absolute imperative, no one size fits all ideology or structure. its that mentality that consumes us.

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» RE: wouldnt fit :-( Posted by: nakis
It's "The Second-Coming of the Crusades", Stupid
Posted by: Velos on Aug 31, 2005 6:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Understand this:

1. The Iraqi insurgents and their imported terrorists do not care a fig for, or want "Democracy".....they're in Iraq for one purpose: To Die!

2. "The First Moron" has succeeded in instituting The Last Crusade against Islam....it has nothing to do with "freedom" or "democratisation"

3. Unless this ill-conceived aggression is stopped immediately via a negotiated withdrawal and settlement, America shall truly become the "ground zero" of Armageddon, within the greater context of the Islamic World War against the Crusaders.

What I'm saying is that this idiot war of conquest has broader implications....not limited to regional conflict, but in a potential world conflagration along the lines of Islam vs. Judeo-Christianity.

I believe it's important to bear this in mind. It may already be too late to extricate the West from what is likely to become something greater, and more horrible than a mere "quagmire" (in the "Vietnam" sense).

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» It's the Jews GODDAMN IT Posted by: Badlawdog
» BadNAZIdog STUPID Posted by: Michiganman
» WTF Posted by: nickptar
What Would You Do?
Posted by: nakis on Aug 31, 2005 6:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
if you lived in a country faced with the problems the Iraqis face? Every 20-50 years some new group comes in kills a bunch of your people and claims your wealth for their own. Each one claims to be helping. Each one claims to be doing it for your own good. But each time your people die and your wealth goes out the borders.
Faced with all this corruption and evil, what would you do?
Probably what they are doing. Turning to what they consider to be inviolate rules for living. Turning to Islam to govern their nation.
I do not agree as I am a firm believe in separation of church and state as the best way to ensure freedom of religion but you really can't blame them for taking this path.
Had the US actually did what we said we would they may have taken what I consider a better path towards freedom of religion and equal rights but we didn't. We just showed them that infidels are never to be trusted and only Islam can be trusted.
You can't push someone off a cliff and expect them to not fall.
Again, history has proven it time and time again. Fools do not learn from history. And the evil would put people through this for their own enrichment.

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» RE: What Would You Do? Posted by: Velos
» RE: What Would You Do? Posted by: demidesigrrl
» RE: What Would You Do? Posted by: Velos
» RE: What Would You Do? Posted by: nakis
» RE: What Would You Do? Posted by: Velos
» RE: What Would You Do? Posted by: cyclone
» RE: What Would You Do? Posted by: nakis
» RE: What Would You Do? Posted by: cyclone
» RE: What Would You Do? Posted by: nakis
Mangled Merger
Posted by: Sandra on Aug 31, 2005 7:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bush has managed to merge religion and capitalism and mangled them both. We are engaged in a holy war and we're doing it in support of money hungry weapons makers and corporations. Perhaps he wants to facilitate the"Rapture" so he can leave the mess he's made in the world.

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» RE: Mangled Merger Posted by: nakis
» RE: Mangled Merger Posted by: drmeow
» RE: Mangled Merger Posted by: nakis
Professor of Political Science
Posted by: david.model@senecac.on.ca on Aug 31, 2005 7:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A constitution is the legal framework of a democracy and sets out the powers and limitations on the various governmental institutions and agents. It is impossible to construct a constitution when a foreign power with strong interests in the economy and political sytem is militarily occupying the country. The conditions created by the U.S. have destroyed any chance of a constitution that will serve the interests of the Iraqis. The U.S. has already completely overhauled the economy to serve its interests. In addition to all of that, the military occupation is illegal as was the war as documented in my latest book "Lying for Empire: How to Commit war Crimes with a Straight Face".

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Get them out NOW
Posted by: NamVeT on Aug 31, 2005 9:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our only hope to succeed at ANYTHING is to get rid of george the idiot joker and all of his worthless minions. This country is going down the tubes, period. The longer they are in power the worse off we all are. IMPEACHMENT of all of them is the only way to save our country. The sooner the better. If not, I fear that Armageddon is just around the corner. And, thanks to george the imbecile, it will start right here in the good ole USA.

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You can't embarrass a moron
Posted by: barrys new conversations on Aug 31, 2005 10:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Never argue with a stupid man-- Dubya doesn't get it. Bush is president because of the strength of the three most powerful lobbies in America--Evangelicals, Zionists & the military-industrial complex (neocons). And the lack of knowledge of the American electorate concerning Middle East history ( not revised history).We would have invaded Iraq under a democrat sooner or later because of those powerful lobbies anyway. What makes Bush exasperating is his grouchy, ignorant attitude that is more appropriate for a manager ( with dirty shirt) of a Dairy Queen in the rural south.

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America, Downhill Racer
Posted by: spirit on Aug 31, 2005 10:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Karma, (what goes around, comes around), works the same for countries as well as for individuals, and America cannot escape it. With the consent of the vast majority of US citizens , George Bush has exported such violence and chaos, that this country is in for some really bad times. Apathy has allowed him to devastate a democracy that has worked for 230 years, leaving the people of this country immensely worse off than they have ever been. The American people have only themselves to blame, they get the kind of gov't they deserve. America must prepare itself for a long, difficult time of tribulation. Salvation comes through humility.

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» Not vast majority Posted by: Michiganman
» RE: Not vast majority Posted by: birdman
» RE: America, Downhill Racer Posted by: Captainmagic
Spinning
Posted by: zap2scott on Aug 31, 2005 3:05 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
". . . relentless spinning of manure into silk. . . " results in a fabric of tenuous cloth whereby the spinner finds his hands covered with shit, and the smell will not go away. And yet it is like the emperor and his new clothes, except that many people still cannot see that the emperor is without cover - it is up to the rest to speak out loudly and conituously on neutral and hostile soil until even the most singularly obtuse understand what is being done to the vast majority of Americans and our world.

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dubious
Posted by: AL-CIA-DA on Sep 1, 2005 2:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
we could go on disagreeing about this all day long and chase each other in circles, i do believe however that if you honestly think that europe "propped up" the ottoman empire then you're somewhat misguided. the "young turk" ultra-nationalist party emerged long before world war 1 and were the direct result of inteference, cultural poisoning and ideological warfare by western powers. this group was far and away one of the most weakening factors in the ottoman empire at this time. this is only one example, but a very pertinent one. so much for propping up..... the ottomans only joined world war 1 after years of deliberate internal weakening and sabotage at the hands of various western powers and only then was the state weak enough for france and britain to divide it. infact, the only hope of resisting this divide and conquer attitute was to join with germany in world war 1, which is why they did so.

i'm a bit unsure of your reference to indonesia "working". regardless whether its a dictatorship or a democracy its still a brittle, corrupt, oppressive place where the govt renegs on its own promises, kills its own people, and the various religious groups prance around commiting religicide on a daily basis. how did it work again? oh wait.. you must have been refering to the polio epidemic gripping the country at the moment.. at least the healthcare system works...

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» RE: dubious Posted by: AL-CIA-DA
rights
Posted by: AL-CIA-DA on Sep 1, 2005 2:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the concept of universal rights is oppressive to the beliefs and cultures of the world that happen to differ to the mantras written out by upperclass western diplomats. who is the rich white man to dictate to the rest of the world what their rights are? rights should be culturally defined by the people in question and suited to themselves, their beliefs and their aspirations,...... not enforced and dictated from predominantly white western countries and western dominated institutions. if people dont like the beliefs, "rights", structures of a place.....by all means, say so, or dont go there... but i dont think its the wests "right" to say "do this, do that, live like this, live like that, believe this, believe that... or we'll shoot you, or sanction you and starve you, or globally isolate and belittle you"...... you might agree with this, but i dont.

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» Um... Posted by: nickptar
» RE: rights Posted by: Klaxton
» RE: rights Posted by: Scott
The Patsy
Posted by: Riverside on Sep 2, 2005 5:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Michael Moore's yet to be documentary telling how the neo-cons on the edge of total collapse pass all the failures and blames over to their fall-guy, George "Patsy" Bush will soon become a reality. As gunbarrel democracy crumbles from no internal support the blame will heap high on the President's head. Stammering denials, sly lies, and cabinet firings will fail to obscure the workings and effects of the Bush Administration's "dupe the whole world" strategies.

The end will be one massive shudder that will stagger us all until common sense begins to trickle back into our thoughts and reactions.

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Must Be Time For Another US Election
Posted by: birdman on Sep 2, 2005 7:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Even many in his own party are rebelling."

I'm sure the Republicans are looking at a potential debacle in the 2006 bi-year elections and suddenly "getting it." Unfortunately for us, the Democrats are just as pathetic. Le Deluge hit Washington long before it hit New Orleans.

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All pertinent comments so far
Posted by: WallsyinBorås on Sep 2, 2005 7:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As one poster has correctly pointed out, it was my country that caused the initial problems back in the early part of the 20th Century. No quarrel there. Furthermore, it would appear that any effort on the part of Middle Eastern states to forge national economies based on the GDP created through the sale of indigenous resources (and other exports), has always been quashed by the Brits and Americans. One classic case in point would be the assassination of Mossadeq in Iran in 1953. Mossadeq was - much to the chagrin of the UK and US - a reformist whose ambition it was to nationalise Iranian industries and resources to thereby create a prosperous future for Iranians (utopian?). I believe too that, apart from this Persian model, Arab states had the same idea in mind, but were prevented from doing so. If it is a truism to claim that development leads to stability and whatever forms of indigenous "democracy" a Middle Eastern state, or any state, desires, then we, the Occident, have simply not wanted it, nor encouraged it.

As another poster correctly points out, a country under occupation is neither sovreign nor democratic. It is ignorance beyond belief to suggest otherwise. I must also agree, in part anyway, with the more vulgar critic of our so-called "secular" culture. As a teacher of English and, occasionally, Sociology, I am amazed at, on teh one hand, the reverence my pupils and colleagues have for free speech, but, on the other hand, without emphasising the importance of developing a socio-historical consciousness or even critical analysis. Having the freedom to say nothing of importance is pretty sad.

It occurs to me that one of the reasons so many people were lulled into Bush's war was due to a lack of historical analysis. It really doesn't require great effort to find established, historical facts about how we got here. It is matter of having a Media which disseminates a broad specturm of information and then having the skills to decipher it. las, with networks like FoxNews and SkyNews (although FAR better than the former), teh framework is almost always in favour of our "great leaders" world view. Dissent is often ridiculed in such a framework or, more importantly, general feeling is often presented as dissent in that kind of framework.

By the way, I urge you all to read one Andrew Aroto, professor of Sociology, who has written a great deal on constitutional issues in Iraq.

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Flatulence and CoincidENCE- Just assonEnce
Posted by: The Butcher on Sep 3, 2005 4:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is for you as it seems to fit your frame!
Just did a bit of Internet Fun Typing 666. Plenty of Armaggedon wbsites there!
Real fun! tell you mate!
The antechrist....
Check WB's father's birthdate, get wb's birthdate.
So many sixes here. Scary stuff.
My conclusion?
The puppet ( 6 letters) is the antechristtt. 12 letters.
Just wanted to give you some conspicuous advantage for your argumentation. Surely HE is not a beast.

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Drug use and the Republican mind (post Rush)
Posted by: stoney13 on Sep 8, 2005 1:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Please don't take this wrong of me for asking ,but, ARE YOU FOR FUCKING REAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU SMOKING DUDE!!!! God in Heaven give me strength!!! Were you born an idiot or have just been practicing a long time! You don't get it do you!! It ain,t about Democracy in Iraq!! It ain,t about hearts and minds !!! G.W. says, 'When you got 'em by the balls, their hearts and minds follow.". WRONG!! When you got 'em by the balls, they're gonna do whatever it takes to make you turn loose. After that happens you got the same problems you started with as well as somebody who is really, really pissed about what you just tried to do to their balls!!!!

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