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Can Progressives Love Obama?

By David Moberg, In These Times. Posted September 10, 2008.


Obama has always been more centrist than many have wanted to admit. But it's the possibility of what his presidency can deliver that's so important.

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After Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) secured his party's nomination in June, his tightly knit campaign message began to fray at the edges. Critics from across the political spectrum charge that Obama has shifted to the center or right on a host of issues, and that the flip-flopping was -- take your pick -- good, bad, inevitable or duplicitous.

Progressives, whose hopes for Obama grew from his early opposition to the war in Iraq, and the youthful movement his candidacy inspired, wondered how much they could trust him on Iraq, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, civil liberties, gun control, the death penalty, trade, government funding of faith-based groups and other issues.

Disappointed as some progressives may be, Obama has not made a dramatic shift to the center: He's always been more centrist, cautious and compromising than many of his supporters -- and critics -- have wanted to admit.

"I don't think he's changed positions," says Robert Borosage, co-director of the progressive advocacy group, Campaign for America's Future. "He's always been a cautious liberal."

The Wall Street Journal took the supposed changes as Obama's admission that the conservative positions on most issues were correct, and concluded that Obama, as much as Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), would represent a third term for Bush.

Right-wing anti-Obama groups warned their followers that a devious Obama was trying to woo evangelicals from the conservative fold. McCain's backers used the controversies to tarnish Obama's character and disillusion his supporters.

Meanwhile, centrists rejoice that the middle -- wherever that shifting spot may be -- is always best. And a few on the left find evidence, once again, that no Democrat can be trusted.

Even if Obama is more consistent than critics allege, questions still haunt progressives. Does an Obama presidency promise dramatic and progressive change, as his rhetoric sometimes suggests? Or will Obama simply shift from Bush's neoconservatism back to the confused -- if slightly less conservative -- perspective of the Democratic Party establishment?

And what president would Obama most resemble? A Lincolnesque figure who would bring national unity (without a civil war), as Obama often implies?

A Clinton, who campaigned to "put people first" -- as he had put it -- but failed to take bold steps and ended up triangulating political differences?

A Kennedy, who inspired millions but got dragged down by conventional assumptions about American power in the world, as evidenced by the Vietnam War and Bay of Pigs?

Or, as many on the left fantasize, an FDR running a conservative campaign but responding to the times with dramatic reforms?

On the record

The character of an Obama presidency will depend not just on Obama but also on worsening world conditions that demand a new direction -- economic collapse and financial instability, environmental and energy crises, failure of a military approach to terrorism, worsening inequality and insecurity for most Americans.

It also will depend on opportunities, such as the size of a Democratic congressional majority, and pressures, including demands from popular movements at home for an end to the war, single-payer national health insurance and worker rights, as well as high expectations from nations and leaders around the world.

What Obama says as a candidate does affect his chances of winning. It can also skew the direction of his potential presidency and demonstrate his will -- and ability -- to be a forceful leader.

In most of the controversies, Obama has maintained previous positions that often departed from progressive orthodoxy.

On other points, however, he has shifted in disappointing ways.

Obama broke his promise to vote against and filibuster the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) re-authorization. The measure included immunity from prosecution for the telecommunications companies that aided the Bush administration's warrantless wiretapping of citizens.

"There is no reason why telephone companies should be given blanket immunity to cover violations of the rights of the American people," Obama had said in February. "We must reaffirm that no one in this country is above the law."

But in June, Obama told reporters that the FISA compromise was an improvement since it would put an "inspector general in place to investigate what happened previously." He continued: "Given ... all the information I received ... the underlying program itself actually is important and useful to American security as long as it has these constraints on them."

Though Obama didn't change his views on the merits of the legislation, his vote for the bill -- which passed easily, thanks to many Democrats' defections -- angered civil libertarians and the left blogosphere.


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David Moberg is a senior editor of In These Times.

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He broke his promise on the most important bill this year
Posted by: Uriahz on Sep 10, 2008 12:33 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No forgiveness for Obama for FISA. He's a fascist like the rest of them. It is unpardonable treason, every bit of that foul abomination of a law. It is the jenkem of democracy. Tyranny has been officially endorsed by Senator Obama.

Hell no there's no way for a real progressive to love Obama. He's just another stinking Washington Democrat, only worth voting for because he's not as bad as that traitor McCain.

Maybe there'll be some FDR-like shit to come out of it, but I ain't holding my breath.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» How do you figure? Posted by: EinMD
» RE: How do you figure? Posted by: Dboy
» Bullshit Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Bullshit Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Bullshit Posted by: maxpayne
» Precisely my point Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Precisely my point Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Precisely my point Posted by: GrantBurkeVT
» RE: Precisely my point Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Precisely my point Posted by: maxpayne
» Public Law 109-364 Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Precisely my point Posted by: crashgrab
» SCOTUS Posted by: EinMD
» RE: SCOTUS Posted by: crashgrab
» That's fine Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Bullshit Posted by: Dboy
» BONG BONG BONG Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» Bull hockey. Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Bullshit Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: Bullshit Posted by: EinMD
» Obama puts us in a catch 22 Posted by: americansheep
» Yup Posted by: EinMD
» Attitude Posted by: EinMD
» Bull Connor Posted by: theVRWCwhodatesLiberals
Read the Fine Print ...
Posted by: mmckinl on Sep 10, 2008 12:35 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The rhetorical gymnastics explaining why Obama isn't a flip flopper was breath taking. The "Careful Liberal" pronouncement was priceless. The nuance of the Obama positioning postulation, genius.

Hold your nose and vote for Obama? Include me out. I will make my vote count and vote Green. I will not now or ever vote DLC again.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Include Me Out ... Posted by: mmckinl
» Fine print Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Fine print Posted by: mmckinl
» Hell, I'll run Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Hell, I'll run Posted by: mmckinl
» An do what exactly? Posted by: EinMD
dipconsult
Posted by: dipconsult on Sep 10, 2008 1:03 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a very useful round-up on Obama and his centrist position on a number of issues.

From here in Europe we see Obama as having two large handicaps - no doubt explaining why he had no 'surge' after the remarkable Democrat Convention, while McCain had a big one after the down-beat Republican one.

1. he is 'black' and racism in America is far more powerful than here in Europe,
2. the Democratic party is widely perceived as 'progressive', 'liberal', 'politically correct' - meaning to many, especially in the 'red' states, that Democrats are out to bury the traditional moral values of the US.

So it would seem sensible - as people like Mark J. Penn (ex-election fixer for the Clintons) advise - for Obama to distance himself from this part of the Democratic party's image.

But after Mrs Palin's electrification of the Republican image (thanks to Karl Rove's genius)
Obama must equally electrify his campaign.

Three suggestions -

1. present himself in a major speech and in the debates with McCain as the statesman he really is: warn that not just the US but the whole world is right now at a crossroads. Will America go on down the G W Bush road of confrontation to the Pentagon vision of eternal war - or will America take a turn and lead towards the era of cooperation made possible by the end of the Cold War? Only taking that road will make possible solving the immense problems all countries face. (Something on those lines?)

2. Make sure everyone knows that the economic & financial woes of ordinary voters stem directly from G W Bush going to war on tax cut for the rich, coupled with his right wing ideology of de-regulation in the financial sector. Something McCain "doesn't get".

3. And inspire us all with that promise to set up a programme to find other sources of energy than oil within ten years. (What happened to that vote-catcher?)

For more - please see our site at
www. dipconsult.eu

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» RE: dipconsult Posted by: mmckinl
» RE: dipconsult Posted by: richholland
» RE: dipconsult Posted by: jstepp590
» Stow that nonsense Posted by: EinMD
» Europe is not America. Posted by: GrantBurkeVT
Runoff Ballots, Rurul America, Iraq(instead of Afghanistan), and "Follow the Leader"
Posted by: jreal on Sep 10, 2008 1:13 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To win, give in to their hearts.

To show his true progressive values, Obama should be telling America that he will mandate a national Runoff ballot so third parties can gain more notoriety. So for all those Naderites, or people who wish Ron Paul was still in as an independent or third party candidate, well in 4 years, you can vote with your heart and not worry about losing to the "worst" candidate.

Barack showing his support for runoff ballots shows his support for progressive politics. If Barack supports this one initiative, Barack will win the presidency. Repuclicans are too scared of choice.


Barack should also connect the dots for rural America that Liberals are better for sportsman and hunters. Liberals look out for their playground and make sure the eco-system is thriving and acknowledge that hunting is needed to keep the eco-system in check. He should also remind rural America about his support for gun rights.

He should also remind rural america that Republicans will be the first to sell off their wild life playgrounds to the first lobbyist-tied industry fat-cat to create slave-wage jobs right in the middle of their hunting grounds and poisoning their fishing holes as well.

Republicans are the ones that make rural america seem poverty-stricken. With Democrats in charge, rural America is more of a rich culture than a culture full of negative stereotypes.


I would also like to see Barack pound the message more that he was correct to not invade Iraq and create a magnate for terrorism instead of chasing the real enemy that attacked us. This act of arrogance(invading Iraq) has increased terrorism exponentially. And McCain still says it was right.


And with McCain picking a woman for vice, after Democrats paved the way, and after McCain switched his theme to change, Barack should ask McCain why he's playing "follow the leader." Come on America just vote for the real thing.


And by the way, he should use the pig in lipstick line over and over again sometimes rephrasing it with pig in a mask, until all American understand that Republicans are pigs, and it's John McCain he's talking about.

Maybe a few messages as to why they're pigs might help.

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» RE:Obama On Corp Agri Business Posted by: Purple Girl
BOTH "TICKETS" STINK
Posted by: sallyride on Sep 10, 2008 1:16 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Americans are just waking up! We've been played with, coddleD into passivity;lied to, and these candidates have apparently forgotten that we own America -- "We the people. . . " NO ONE ELSE.

We let our country be sold to our creditors, while we fiddled; we've let an illegal war grow, yet not once did Congress enact any sensible war-time domestic strategies (like energy and materials conservation, the DRAFT, etc...), which only means they knew they wouldn't be accepted over such a pharsical war. Now our nation is bankrupt, and the MIDDLE CLASS is being blamed (but, there's more of them!!!).

Now, we have to listen to a sceaming, inexperienced bumpkin from ALASKA no less, telling us about her God and her goodness in every few paragraphs, then hear it from Obama! BASTA. Get rid of the family-shows, and religion, and get to work, candidates.

Until "DC" can get back to respecting, and serving us,"We the people..." at least STOP telling us who to vote for, who to worship, how to believe, how to think, but most of all stop lying, and start saving America or "GO HOME!" Both tickets have 'bundled' doantions, both taking $$$$ from lobbyists - yet both act like SAINTS - people of the lie.

The Republicans and Democrats are an international abomination - they will not be paid again to further destroy us. Americans are still powerful, and that's going to mean removing people from office who ever try again to ruin our country for their own largesse - RETURN YOUR CAMPAIGN CONTRIBUTIONS, NOW.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: BOTH "TICKETS" STINK Posted by: opmoc
» RE: BOTH "TICKETS" STINK Posted by: CatDad
» RE: BOTH "TICKETS" STINK Posted by: jstepp590
» RE: BOTH "TICKETS" STINK Posted by: peridot
» RE: BOTH "TICKETS" STINK Posted by: DaBear
» RE: BOTH "TICKETS" STINK Posted by: DaBear
» RE: BOTH "TICKETS" STINK Posted by: gzuckier
Obama, Kerry, Gore
Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Sep 10, 2008 1:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When will the Dipocrits ever learn? Palin is a hood ornament and to allow the media and neocons to deflect attention from Bush/Cheney and McCain to her constitutes mental paralysis. Kerry and Gore ran pathetic campaigns and Rove gutted both. He's doing it again because the Dipocrits have no response. Progressives/liberals have had no voice in America other than Kucinich in the House and Feingold in the Senate....both disfavored among party elites. Howard Dean has valiantly tried to carve a new image and direction but he can never get past the elite Dipocrits that shackle the DNC and its attempts at development. And where the hell is Obamarama? Watch his speeches now and tell me he isn't running for Class President rather than President of the U.S. FDR, Truman, Kennedy, Johnson he ain't but he damned sure might be Carter [I lusted in my mind looking at Playboy] or Dukakis [Willie Horton deserves a break, even if he raped my wife] or Clinton [I smoked but I didn't inhale; a blowjob isn't sexual intercourse] or Gore [didn't carry his home state of TN and debased himself and party by failing to heed the demand of House blacks to challenge Bush/Gore outcome in congress] or Kerry [swift-boated to deserved oblivion] and now Obamarama [abandoned the utterly correct Rev. Wright and now shies from Palin's pentacostal lunacy that makes Wright look like Mother Theresa]. Kucinich was and is the man but that day will never arrive. four years from now we will hear from Hillary again but this time she will be running against Palin and that dear friends is the end of America!

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» "metamorphasis" Posted by: Col. Jackleg
» RE: Obama, Kerry, Gore Posted by: dockboy
» RE: Obama, Kerry, Gore Posted by: mr. joshua
It's not about "love," for Christ's sake!
Posted by: VetAgainst McCain on Sep 10, 2008 1:57 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Manchurian Candidate McCain and his Hockey Mom running mate win in November, the United States of America will become the most ridiculed nation in history -- worse than when it was under George W.'s watch.

Vet against McCain
To find out why, click on the links below
VietnamVeteransAgainstJohnMcCain.com
VoteVets.org

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

YES because 'Progress' Refers to the Ability to move forward
Posted by: Purple Girl on Sep 10, 2008 3:14 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just attended a 'progressive' Dem meeting last night, We are all behind Sen Obama.
Granted there are issues we differ with him on but We know we have a chance of getting our Voices heard in an Obama Adminstration
Most notably is his Healthcare plan vs Rep Conyers HR 676. Progressives WANT Universal Single payer Healthcare.Sen Obama's health plan still involves the insurance Corps. However, his plan is far more superior to Mac's 'Aspirin & Bandaid' Plan
We would also like to end the War in Afghanistan, but realize our first focus must be getting out of Iraq where We had NO need or Right to invade.
We hated the FISA vote- however are cognizant of the fact the bill did NOT give Immunity from Criminal prosecution- only immunity for Civil prosecution. 'Revenge' a Dish best served Cold.
Frankly it would be fool hearty to believe that for as far Off the track as this country has gone in the last 30 yrs, can we MAGICALLY reverse these long standing trends and entrenchments-By Corps and by Koolaid drinking Right wing voters.The so called 'Moral Majority' moved US far to the extremeist Right over the last 3 decades, just returning to Center would be 'Progress'!!!
What does make US thrilled is the return to Constitutionality/Rule of Law, to 'from the bottom up' economics, to Green energy incentives, to small Farming to provide livings, safe food and true animal husbandry,To Diplomacy before Military actions,...To Citizens (Not Corps) Right to Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness!
It has taken 3 decades for Cheney corp to fuck this country up totally, it may take US a term or two to get back at least what we have lost, then we can proceed forward.It's all about the right direction and Progression forward Towards our country's true Potential!
anyone who calls themselves "progressive" and is still supporting Nadar or Barr, must realize there is Koolaid on their Lip too. Nadar has done NOTHING innearly 40 yrs- EXCEPT play the Role of a Red Herring
Barr i snot a Libertarian, he was run out of the Repug Party, bu twas a full fledged card carrying member of the Corp Whores in Red. Instead of watching what was happening in Our economy and Corp legislation being run through Congress in the second half of the '90's Barr was mersmerized by Bill's 'Forum' BJ Story. His lack of Priorities began this downward economic spiral in the late '90's and gave way for More Corp Abuse of Power.
Ron Paul is certainly far closer to the Progressives on many issues- but he's out of the Game ( like Kucinich) and has a very Myopic view of US in the world- Sorry can't turn off Reality- We are in a Global community due to Technology- 'Resistance is Feudal'
Real Progressives have been Waging this Battle for Decades, we have been ignored, ridiculed, maligned and undermined, but we are still fighting.We've been around a few blocks and have heard Many so called "progressive" blow smoke up our asses or Work in direct conflict to our goals.Nor are we the spoiled lil' voters who demand everything be OUR way,We Know Progress comes by taking the first Steps Forward, and through compromise which comes with Dialogue. We are not the Blind and ruthless 'Religious Right',So we don't act like them!We Realize and HONOR the FACT we live in a DEMOCRACY! Our job is to help others see what we have seen for Decades- The Overthrow of Our Democratic Free market by Corp interests and control.WE work on From the point of Reality- not illusions.

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It's not about Obama, but about the neocons
Posted by: Hans B on Sep 10, 2008 3:19 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As this article says, Obama is a centrist. If elected, he'll be slightly to the left of Clinton and slightly to the right of Carter. But that is not really the issue.

The overriding question is whether the neocon revolution will be continued and consolidated - perhaps rendered "permanent".

You either condone the neocons' power-grab and the fascist state they promise, or you don't. Voting "progressive" is condoning it, just as not voting is. Whether one likes Obama or not, he's the only thing standing between the neocons and the White House - and a SCOTUS majority that will last decades. Shoot him down and it's not Nader who will march to power, it's Rove and his ilk.

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If B.O. could be B.O.
Posted by: Blink on Sep 10, 2008 4:07 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
he would be as Leftist as one could get. He knows, however, that he can't get elected by showing his true colors. Therefore, he stutters and stammers when asked a question that requires him to talk off the top of his head, because he is constantly weighing his words to not scare the general voting public while at the same time not alienate his hardcore Leftist base.

He is a political windsock and coward. He is not a thinker but rather has created a thoughtful pose that goes over well with a lot of stupid people, especially guilt-ridden whites. He is in the midst of a political meltdown, of which you are going to see on full display during the debates.

PRESIDENT PALIN 2012!!!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: If B.O. could be B.O. Posted by: jstepp590
» Who the hell cares? Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Who the hell cares? Posted by: Blink
» whatever Posted by: EinMD
» whatever II Posted by: EinMD
» Go soak your head. Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Go soak your head. Posted by: Blink
» Thought experiment Posted by: EinMD
» Thought experiment II Posted by: EinMD
» President Palin Posted by: EinMD
if the realistic choice is between Palin and Obama (and it is) then consider what they represent
Posted by: Suzon on Sep 10, 2008 4:30 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Palin is a bona fide member of the screwin', breedin' and killin' branch of humankind--an exciting dynamic certain to galvanize many Americans.

Obama represents intelligence, thoughtfulness and inclusiveness. Is there any doubt that the Obama/Biden ticket is a significant improvement on McCain/Palin?

A vote for a third party is a vote for regressive politics, regardless of whatever policies that the candidates themselves may promote. It is just about as self-indulgent and immature as voting directly for the loose cannons.

Especially given the likelihood that vote rigging is going to take place.

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Obama Has Not Changed...Only News Media
Posted by: spiderweb on Sep 10, 2008 4:54 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unfortunately news plays an important part of one's life IF YOU LISTEN to it without having any knowledge of what is going on in the world today....You will judge news on emotions. Obama has not changed his fundamental issues on the conditions of what is happening in our economy, environment, foreign policy, and health care. I truly believe that the only way to solve all this rhectoric by the news media is to use common sense. Just look at all the campaigns we have had. Who has run a better campaign with honesty, less attacks on opponents, truth and integrity? Obama has!!! The only change he has made is to become tougher against the status quo. For those who have emotions running on this November election, it's wise to gather your knowledge and put ALL emotions aside. Use truth and integrity as your guide. Let no one influence you because of uncontrollable emotions. Vote the issues and you will vote Obama. Vote emotions and you will set us back into the centuries we have once experienced.

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No time for petulance -
Posted by: seazen on Sep 10, 2008 5:01 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We all should be as stirred up as possible about this election because so much is at stake this time. The arrogance, greed, and bullying that has taken place over the past 8 years on behalf of the "very rich" has brought our economy, our military, our health care system, and our national standing in the world to the point of ruin. Progressives of all types should be angry - because we care about the country, the future, justice, and the common good.

In the end, however, we MUST vote and we must get as many other people as possible to vote to put an end to the dominance of the crooks. To not vote because Barack is not sounding progressive "enough" would be a huge mistake and brings accountability for the results. The only way we can shove this society back to some semblance of a free, democratic, open society is to stay at it.

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» RE: No time for petulance - Posted by: DaBear
Make McCain's Day
Posted by: taxidriver on Sep 10, 2008 5:02 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Go ahead: Show your independence by voting for a Green, a Libertarian, or some other fringe party candidate as a "protest" against the "centrist" Obama.

McCain/Palin will thank you ... and I'm sure they'll listen to your point of view when they take office.

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» RE: Make McCain's Day Posted by: Erin
» RE: Make McCain's Day Posted by: richholland
» RE: Make McCain's Day Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: Make McCain's Day Posted by: jstepp590
» RE: Make McCain's Day Posted by: Karina
» RE: Make McCain's Day Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Make McCain's Day Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: Make McCain's Day Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Make McCain's Day Posted by: jstepp590
» RE: Make McCain's Day Posted by: Krotos
» RE: Make McCain's Day Posted by: progressivevoice
» L3rn2r33d Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Make McCain's Day Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Make McCain's Day Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Make McCain's Day Posted by: crashgrab
» Delusional Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Delusional Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: Delusional Posted by: EinMD
» Neither candidate Posted by: EinMD
» You != helping Posted by: EinMD
No
Posted by: EinMD on Sep 10, 2008 6:15 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm voting against McSame and 4 more years of Bush combined with the Vagina he tapped for the vice president's seat to appease Clinton hissy-fitters and the right wingnuts who hate him.

I am not voting FOR Obama and if there was a strong third party candidate that A. Fit with my paradigm and B. Had a chance in hell he wouldn't even be getting that.

Obama lost my vote when he freaking sold us all out to protect AT&T, thus letting the Criminal in Chief walk.

So no, I can't 'love' him. He's a damned politician like all the rest. He's not a messiah, he's the lesser of two evils at best and he's off to a poor start for even that.

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» Voting my conscience Posted by: EinMD
» Offensive Posted by: EinMD
Options
Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Sep 10, 2008 6:16 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think given the alternative (McBush) Obama is clearly the lesser of the two evils. In fact, if McBush is elected, we might as well just all kiss it goodbye.

Jiff
Ultimate Anonymity

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» RE: Options...Amen Posted by: Old Skeptic
Why Should They Love Him?
Posted by: pdxjoe on Sep 10, 2008 6:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our votes are all he needs from us. This insistence that we support him as well, that is, that we not only vote for him but that we wholly embrace him is terrifying. This forced equivalence between our vote and our support is, on the flip-side, a forced-choice between our critique and our vote. This is obvious when you hear dip-shits say of critics of Obama, "What, are you working for the Republicans?" As if someone couldn't be highly critical of a candidate and still vote for them. It's because of the forced equivalence between our vote and our support, which is to say, because of the persistence of an ideology of free-choice, as if our vote is a special little endorsement of our beliefs and conscience. IF doing the right thing means voting against your conscience, then I say DO SO, but that doesn't mean stop listening to your conscience either. It means continue to maintain a critical distance, lest we fight and fight to defeat McCain electorally only to lose to Obama ideologically.

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» /agreed Posted by: EinMD
Spare me the "Keep hope alive" nonsense
Posted by: nfamous on Sep 10, 2008 6:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama may not be a descendant of an African slave but he is bought and sold by the corporate elite. He is lying when he says he will bring about real change, plain and simple. People fall for his mesmerizing deep voice and charismatic stature but a con is still a con. His blackness won't somehow obviate the greed of the corporate elite. What is causing Americans to not be able to see the truth? Is it fluorinated water? Is it 24/7 brainwashing from the media? If anyone could actually change the course of this nation do you think the elite would allow it to be a black man? The elite are drunk with power. They would never allow a black man to thwart their agenda. They are not benevolent either. They won't just capitulate to the American people because we are suffering. They want people to die. They want the earth depopulated because they know we are currently living overpopulated and unsustainable. The elite want to stay alive as long as possible in the hopes that technology will eventually be able to make them immortal. Obama is just a cog in the wheel. I know people are still going to vote for "change" because they are so hopeless from eight years of Bush but come 2012 we will all see how very little changed, if anything at all.

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» Charisma. Posted by: EinMD
Mainstream Photo Ops.....Obama with Wounded Iraq Vet
Posted by: picket on Sep 10, 2008 6:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"McCain Loves Them and Leaves Them"...[McCain's poor voting record on Vet benefits] They need to be so clever they hit the National News, not just MSNBC, Fox News.....

Obama needs to come out with better one liners that stick. There are hundreds of possibilities.

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Who needs to "love" Obama? I don't. THIS is what gets us in trouble.
Posted by: Beck on Sep 10, 2008 6:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This idea of having to love them and accept everything about them. Little kids feel this way about their parents. Older kids and adults begin to look at things realistically, and reality isn't a vending machine in which you put in your coin and get precisely what you hoped for. There is so much posturing here and bullying here (along with some sincerity) about the "right" way to vote, but it all sounds like conservatism to me, in a number of ways. It will not sooth my conscience to watch McCain and Palin in office for at least 4 years, appointing judges left and right, drilling in ANWR, keeping military families like my own in Iraq for the first 4 of their next 100 years, knowing I voted for a candidate I saw would lose all along. Patting myself on the back for voting for a candidate that got a small percentage of the vote will be no solace whatsoever. Knowing my heart was in the right place but my reason lagged behind and didn't acknowledge reality won't help the day I'll have to hear these words:

"I, John Sidney McCain III, do solemnly swear. ..."

And knowing that I not only voted for someone getting nowhere near a winning margin, but used great energy convincing others to override their reason, follow their heart, ignore reality, won't help the day I hear these very likely words:

"I, Sarah Palin, do solemnly swear. . ."

Obama isn't exactly who we want. Why are we being naive enough to think that THIS election is the one in which it's likely for a far-left or even moderate left candidate to be elected? What are third-party supporters noticing that is making this seem doable? If what you're thinking but won't say is, "Well, it's NOT doable, and we all KNOW that. We just won't vote with a sense of compromise" then leave me out. It IS either McCain or Obama. You WILL notice a difference, and you will not like that difference if McCain pulls this off, especially as people will be voting for SARAH PALIN, not him. You will notice a bigger difference between McCain and Obama that Obama and Nader. No one in a country this big, this split, and this complex and diverse gets many elections that don't include a sense of compromise.

And please, if you're being honest with yourselves and know that you are voting your heart and that your candidate can't win, can you at least stop trying to convince anyone else? After all, if your candidate is going to lose anyway, it doesn't hurt if some of the votes you don't get go to Obama instead of Palin.

Oh, and I'm not interested in voting for any third-party candidate to insure a place in the debates in 2012. I wonder just who put that little rule in place? Did it hurt you, or help you? It's a horrible system and I'll have much greater faith in the ability of third parties to win an election when I see effort to change that rule.

And if you want my vote, I'd advise against against name-calling and mockery and insults involving my education. The Republicans use those tactics. From some of the posts from Nader supporters here, I'd guess that if there were a Nader TV ad, it might say, "Vote for me, unless you're clueless, uneducated, and have no conscience." I guess it's good to know that that's how Nader supporters look at those of us who won't switch to their candidate, but in a campaign season, certain basic and courteous dishonesties apply, IF you want to sway and not repel voters.

Voting third-party this time means you not only gave up on the Democrats, but on the nation. I haven't given up on the nation, not yet. I may be, in future, willing to give up on the Democrats, but direction the nation will take if McCain wins is one I myself have to live through, and watch my son deal with.

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» Fresh out of both Posted by: EinMD
The System Is Corrupt
Posted by: Southern Gal on Sep 10, 2008 7:14 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The political system in this country is corrupt. Candidates for office have to get too much money to run a campaign and they are obligated to the people, lobbyists and corporations that fund them. People who supported Obama through the Internet and donated to his campaign, were later betrayed by his reversal on primary campaign issues. His centrist positions support the corporations. Both candidates for president are beholden to corporations. The difficulty in getting public financing of political campaigns is overwhelming as evidenced by Obama distancing himself from that option. He wanted the money to outspend the Republicans. The media love the current system because they get huge amounts of money for political ads and they look for the drama and dirt to get viewership. We the public can't even get the facts from these candidates through our media. We have to go to outside sources to try to verify what we hear. I am fed up and tapped out for donations. Even mentioning a true progressive like Wellstone makes me want to cry again with our loss of him. We have so few real patriots left in Congress and no hope of getting a majority of them. Defend these candidates all you want and rationalize their changes in positions and their lies. My truth is that a vote for Obama will send a message to the Republicans that we were paying attention to what they did in the last eight years. My vote for Obama does not mean that I trust him to make progressive changes. The Democrats that we recently voted into office as a whole have performed poorly with the trust that we placed in them to stop the war and build our infrastructure in this country.

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ANOTHER WIN BY DEFAULT
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 10, 2008 7:20 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Progressives are turning this election into 'roadkill'. While all the deep discusion goes on the McCain camp is going on to victory. There is no perfect candidate. The important thing is to get ALL the republicans out of the White House. We can't have McCain and his new found right wing nutcase running the show. This is not a classromm debate, it's real life, and EVERYTHING is on the line. Thanks, ANNA

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» Bull Hockey Posted by: EinMD
» RE: ANOTHER WIN BY DEFAULT Posted by: DaBear
NO ! My wife and I are digusted with the way Obama sold out his base and are STRONGLY RECOMMENDING
Posted by: maxpayne on Sep 10, 2008 7:22 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nader for president although Mckinney also qualifies provided she can get the Green Party organized out of its mess !!

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» You're free to choose, but Posted by: Last Chance
» BONG BONG BONG BONG Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» Oh brother. Posted by: EinMD
I Have A Question For All AlterNet Posters --
Posted by: Last Chance on Sep 10, 2008 7:23 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How many death-threats, and how many references to the fate of Bobby Kennedy would it take to soften your progressive rhetoric? Give Obama a break. It is not YOU who is the first Black man ever to run for U.S. President! Walk a mile in his shoes and you would jump out of them!

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Idiots
Posted by: thehousedog on Sep 10, 2008 7:30 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Progressives - the choice is simple - Love Obama or Love McCain. Who's your Daddy now?

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» Bite me. Posted by: EinMD
futile, infantile and worse ineffective
Posted by: jstepp590 on Sep 10, 2008 7:40 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The part that is morbidly funny is that some people here think a third party has a remote chance of winning without massive structural changes in our government, which are not possible within the election timeframe.

People here who want us to vote Obama this year have the attitude, which I agree with, that there is no time to make third parties viable. A vote for anyone besides Obama at this point is a vote for McBush. It's stunning to me why you cannot see that.

Once Obama is in office we will all be backing your positions of progressive morality because we share them. This race isn't about Obama, it's about a new direction and he is our current most effective tool. However, unless he gets elected we will have nobody to listen, unless you actually think a McCain campaign will.

All this talk about third parties and standing adamant on morals will lose us the very chance to get us closer the the values that you, and us, share in common. Back us to win this election and then we will back you on getting more choices in government. Anything else is delusional, infantile and worse, ineffective.

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Dear God....
Posted by: foreverhope on Sep 10, 2008 8:04 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Please save this country from the lunatic fringe right AND the lunatic fringe left. Answer the prayers of millions of Americans in the center that are losing homes, losing jobs, over-whelmed with debt, or dying in Iraq. God bless Barack and Michelle Obama, thank you for giving them to us. God bless the democratic party, the party that has always represented and been commited to the best interests middle-income workers, women's rights, children's needs, racial diversity, the poor, the sick, the disenfranchised. They aren't perfect, no one is, but most of them do try. Keep them (all of us) strong and brave, as thoughtful and/or fierce as we need to be to win this election. And please bless Jon Stewert, Stephen Colbert, Keith Olbermann and Rachel Maddow, thank you for their truthiness. Please protect our troops and their families, bring them comfort, bring them home soon.

Amen.

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» RE: Dear God.... Posted by: dayenta
» RE: Dear God.... Posted by: cmaciain
» RE: Dear God.... Posted by: stuarts
The Attitude
Posted by: pdxjoe on Sep 10, 2008 8:12 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"People here who want us to vote Obama this year have the attitude, which I agree with, that there is no time to make third parties viable."

The flip-side of this attitude, which I whole-heartedly reject and ask others to reject as well, is that we cannot critique Obama. Voting for Obama should not be equated with supporting him, which is the less emotionally charged way of saying "loving him." People here who want us to vote for Obama this year should wholly embrace how undesirable a bunch of his positions, nods of support and campaign backers are. By embracing these I do not mean saying look the other way because "the election is all that matters"---because, not only is it not all that matters, but the election does not depend on that kind of capitulation; it depends on our votes---but accepting responsibility for fighting them left and right.

In other words, we need to reject the cynical posture - "oh, he's not perfect, but we're going to effectively act as if he were by not critiquing him and lambasting those who rationally do" - and be actual pragmatists about this election. The attitude that should accompany the one jstepp590 articulated, against the usual flip-side to it I pointed out, is: not only is Obama not our ideal candidate, but as we vote for him we should hold it against him, lest we simply forget it.

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» The problem Posted by: Krotos
» and AFTER the election.... Posted by: foreverhope
Understanding the deep down anger of the working class base.
Posted by: maxpayne on Sep 10, 2008 8:26 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
See, it's not that voters are necessarily dumb. It's that thanks to dumbing down the public, the only way to reach out is to be a populist. Obama has to prove that he can identify with the voters. Academics is irrelevant unlike Europe except for maybe the deep blue cities in America.

Here's a way to look at this correctly. Let's bring up a typical real world example. You're planning to run for office in 4 years as you're currently a Senator. Joe is a typical working class blue collar voter. He has a wife, Jane, who chose to be a housewife. He has 4 children and is the only one working. If he loses his job, everything goes haywire. Through the years, a couple of "free" trade scams, more spending for the Iraq war, more tax cuts for corporations, bankruptcy restrictions against the average Joe and Jane, etc ... get passed. Let's say that you vote for most or even all of them all despite your original promise not concede to such scams before you entered office. This is where you run the risk of alienating your base. 6 months after your vote on the policies, as the policies take effect, Joe gets laid off because thanks to one of the "free" trade scams, his job is going to be displaced in another country where that new employee can do it for near-slave wage. He's in the middle of trying to pay his bills. However, because he's out of work, for the next year he's forced to use up what's left while still trying to find another job. 9 months later, Joe is forced to settle for a job that pays significantly lower and Jane decides to work as well thinking that his job might not stay secure. Both their new jobs are even more stressful than before and both are forced to work more than 40 hours a week with fewer benefits. The costs of living rise and thus both Joe and Jane are in a bigger living hell. Meanwhile, the costs of caring for the kids feels heavier than before because Jane can no longer afford to be a housewife and Joe is not getting a well-paying job with better benefits. Now, it's 9 months before the election and as usual you fall for some whoopdee doo polls that supposedly tell you what the public wants despite the fact that they're corporate written polls asking you to be a dumb senator and vote against the people's interests yet again and again. You fall for it. However, every time you do that, you rob yourself of an issue for which you can claim that you actually fought for or against. In the end, you are left to campaign mainly on social issues which have virtually little effect on people's daily lives such as gun control and abortion. Had you actually stood up to big monied interests and voted against bad legislation and even filibustered it consistently, and even tried to counter bad policies with good legislation, then win or lose, you would have a plateful of heroic economic victories or at least braveheart attempts that you could campaign on. For example, instead of wasting more ad money on "abortion", you would dedicate some of it towards telling the voters that you stood up to tyrannical bankruptcy restrictions and fought for the economic safety of the working class. So instead of angering disaffected voters such as Joe and possibly Jane the other way on weak issues such as guns and abortion, you would actually be giving both of them hope that yes, there are politicians who they can count on to work with these people and others similar to their background. Joe and/or Jane would care less that you're for gun control as long as you fought to save them from the punishments and restrictions of going bankrupt. The lesson is, it's not that the voter is stupid. It's how you turn the voter on or off. That's why Obama is FAILING like Kerry. And if Obama dresses up in a silly hunting costume the way Kerry did in Ohio just to placate the "NRA voters", it's a sign that he's FINISHED.

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» Paragraphs - learn to use them. Posted by: daniel1982
» maxpayne ain't james joyce. Posted by: daniel1982
Not Voting for Obama is a Vote For Mccain
Posted by: jbowen43 on Sep 10, 2008 9:05 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You want McCain? Then vote for some one other than Obama.

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Corrupted Politics
Posted by: RobNLA on Sep 10, 2008 9:25 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Looking at the responses to this article gives a pretty good idea why the left or progressives keep losing the White House, even when they should easily win it.

Progressives are not unified. They each expect something from their candidate and if he (or she) doesn't deliver then they threaten to vote third party or don't vote. The result is that the neo-cons win.

Here are some givens: politicians are corrupt. our political system is corrupt. The two party system is a joke, it's rigged to push out independents and to maintain the status quo of Democrats versus Republicans.

And the corporate media is in bed with this arrangement. It belittles the independent candidates and push the public to dismiss them as quickly as possible.

Many progressives and independents want to believe that if enough of them vote third party, they will eventually win. This strategy works at the local, state level. It can also work to a limited degree when electing senators and congressmen. But it doesn't work for the Presidential election because of how the system is rigged.

I mean just look at the last 20 years and you'll see numerous indepedent presidential candidates who have been marginalized into obscurity by the other two parties and the media.

So I would argue to get more third party candidates into office in the local and state levels, and into congress and the senate first. Only after that will independents and progressives be able to make some changes in the political system to take control of it out of the two parties and the corporate media and give it back to the public.

As far as Presidential elections go, as voters our real choices are limited. It makes little difference if you vote Democratic or Republican, because both are heavily influenced by lobbyists and corporate interests.

I plan to vote Obama, not because I think he's some type of savior that will fix the system. I will vote for him because even though it will make little difference, at least it's a little.

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» Unifying The Left Posted by: pdxjoe
» RE: Corrupted Politics Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Corrupted Politics Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: Corrupted Politics Posted by: gzuckier
» RE: Corrupted Politics Posted by: crashgrab
it's a process folks.......please help
Posted by: nearblindjames on Sep 10, 2008 9:30 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People who are morbidly overweight wish they could lose all the pounds overnight.......but they cannot. People with cancer wish they could be cured overnight.......but it too is a process. Kids learning to play guitar want to play like their favorite rock star right now, but it takes years to learn. Most things are a process, and our great country is no different. I wish our country could change RIGHT NOW and be as it should be -- no more torture, no more empire, no more war profiteering, universal health care as a right to all citizens, no more lying from our leaders. But it is a process, and the way I see it, the only person running for president with a chance of winning and STARTING us on the right track on the improvement process is Barack Obama. On many issues I do not agree with Sen. Obama and wish he were more progressive, had bigger plans, and pushed harder and farther to the side of justice and equality. I have great respect for Ralph Nader, and I voted for Ross Perot in 1992. But they cannot win, and a victory by Sen. McCain is a LOSS for the USA, and most likely the entire world. PLEASE -- help to elect Sen. Obama and as many Democratic/Progressive candidates as possible this November. Maybe one day we will have an onvernight cure for cancer and corruption, but that day is not here yet.

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» Interesting you should bring up Perot... Posted by: MartianBachelor
vote now
Posted by: Quasar on Sep 10, 2008 10:48 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All I have to say is vote now and then when Obama is president we can lay it all in front of him. He'll listen.

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» RE: vote now Posted by: DaBear
» Shouldn't it be the other way around? Posted by: MartianBachelor
» What Makes You Think That? Posted by: pdxjoe
What do you want for your vote?
Posted by: solrev on Sep 10, 2008 11:20 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Being a mystic sometimes I have a hard time figuring out just what it is you progressives want. Universal healthcare sounds reasonable to us Jesus healed the sick. Equality sounds reasonable to us we are all equal in the eyes of God. Anti-war sounds reasonable to us we were commanded not to kill. Anti-poverty sounds reasonable to us Jesus fed the multitudes. FISA actually means little to us one way or another, because we can not escape from God’s sight. Justices no matter to us we are not a nation of laws we are a nation of people and our laws are well documented. We only obey civil laws if they seem to be in our best interest. Change, we seek also but the only thing we expect from Obama is that he be a peacemaker. The real revolution happens in 2012. Without the rest of the world's nationalists on our side we can not defeat the globalists in 2012. It is written in our books that all nations bow before God not taht one planet does, we are the nationalists. The globalists can only escape the dollar debt with gold or a new currency. The nationalists may escape the dollar debt with these words, “And forgive us our debts, as we forgive those that debt against us.”

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Here's a community organizer
Posted by: BeSomeone on Sep 10, 2008 11:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's a community organizer that's reached out to over 20,000 youth and has a goal of touching a million by teaching them the game of life through chess. Click below to watch video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLFENGymr34

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False Prophet ?? Or Should we settle again for the evil of two lessers
Posted by: aamer923 on Sep 10, 2008 12:15 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We were tingling up and tearing up as he spoke about peace, unity, respect for all human beings life, human rights, peaceful living. he was Anti war. Now Act two: Our Disappointments pile up
First : He sided with our phone and email companies to hand our private conversations to the government
Second: He wants an open ended occupation of Afghanistan instead of Iraq
Third: He wants the Iraqis to pay for our destruction of their country and loss of life of at least half a million Iraqi
Fourth: He uses the same sleazy attacks on McCain and Palin. Obviously the other side is not all evil.. Neither is this side all good.

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We need to rally around Obama, save America
Posted by: FrankChurch on Sep 10, 2008 2:27 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Swift boat, Karl Rove and kooky right politics will destroy this fine country if we let another good candidate lose. As Noam Chomsky would say, Barack has small agreements with us that equal big paybacks for normal, working class Americans. Some reasons to care:

Minimum wage, getting out of Iraq, killing rich's tax cuts, environmental spending, green energy, liberal FCC, Supreme Court, saner foreign policy, more connections with allies, diplomacy, finding loose nukes, slightly more worker rights, Moderately religious, against crazy immigration plans, affordable college, better health coverage.

These and more are no joke.

Obama has to win, even if that just means taking the smile off the right's face.

Watch Limbaugh and Hannity shit their pants.

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maxpayne - Based on YOUR posts on Alternet - I Think You should Enter Politics
Posted by: opmoc on Sep 10, 2008 2:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of Course you have got to start at the local level and - well - I guess you have got to form your own party - or you could join an existing one - or switch from one to another.

It really is - well sure its difficult - but not impossible.

The bloke who lives right opposite me - who's daughter is my daughter's best friend...

Just knocked on my door and said hey Tony - I have switched parties from Labour to Liberal

Will you sponsor me - ie -just sign this piece of paper as a prospective candidate in the Local elections

I said - sure Mate No Problem

And he was adopted as the local Liberal Candidate in Our Ward

And I did Vote For Him

But he Didn't Quite Get elected

But he was only a few hundred votes short

This is what DEMCOCRACY is All About

Some of the Stuff You have posted is completely Awesome

I just suggest that if you want to get going - don't mention that your shirt was made of the same stuff that English Sailors knew all about a few hundred years ago

Anything is Possible if You Just TRY

Tony

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» RE: the Green Party... Posted by: oregoncharles
is it true
Posted by: is it true on Sep 10, 2008 3:29 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Berg vs. Obama, Civil Action No. 08-cv-4083, in Federal Court

What is going on here! Is it true that Obama was born in Kenya Africa. Is it true that there are no records of his mother giving birth to him at any hospital in Hawaii.

What Hospital in Hawaii was Obama born at?

Who was the Doctor that delivered him?

Who was the Nurse that cared for him at is mothers delivery?

What are their names?

Is it true that his Grandmother, and half-sister have said he was in fact born in Kenya.

Is it true that Republicans have records to prove Obama was born in Kenya.

And is it true that he was registered as a citizen of Indonesia as a Muslim.

Is there any truth to any of this. Where is the major media on this story. Have they investigated this. Has any of the above been proved untrue.

If any of the above is true this is very serious.

What's up!

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» RE: is it true Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: is it true Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: McCain's Birthplace Posted by: gradioc
» RE: is it true Posted by: opmoc
I'm a progressive and I support Obama
Posted by: crashgrab on Sep 10, 2008 3:44 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's face facts, progressives are not the majority of the country. If we're going to make change in Washington, at least this time around, we have to either vote our conscience (knowing that person won't get into office) or vote for who we think we can work with better. It seems clearly obvious to many of my progressive friends that Obama will more likely work with us than McCain.

Now, I'm not going to tell progressives not to vote their conscience though either if they feel they need to vote for Nader. I personally can't do it this time. As I've said in other threads, if we progressives want the presidency we need to get more progressives into the House and Senate first.

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Picture It
Posted by: radical53 on Sep 10, 2008 4:41 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For all of you who are considering voting for McCain or sitting this one out, I want you to picture election night in your own mind.

Sometime after midnight, Obama steps to the podium. While many in the crowd behind the podium are sullen or crying, he's trying to smile through it all. He announces that he is conceding defeat to John McCain. John McCain will be the next President of the United States.

About an hour later, John McCain and Sarah Palin step to a podium. They are waving, smiling, and laughing. "About an hour ago, I received a call from Senator Obama. He congratulated me on being elected as the next President of the United States...".

I respect the opinions of those of you who would rather see things spiral downward until a truly progressive candidate is nominated or a viable new political party rises to the top. Some of us can't wait that long.

If Obama goes down, we either get a re-elected McCain or Hillary Clinton in 2012 and all the additional damage that has been done in 4 years. Hillary would do the best she could, but she is even less progressive than Obama.

Then what? Mitt Romney? Evan Bayh? Jeb Bush? Sarah Palin? Jesse Ventura?

Trillions more in national debt. Less political stability internationally. America's standard of living down. Job growth gone. Economy stagnated. Environment in rapid decline. Global warming unchecked.

The situation could become unrecoverable. By the time America is ready for the progressive leader you are waiting for, he or she may be unable to do much about it.

Think about it.

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And as Far as Joe Biden Is Concerned I Know ALL About YOUR History
Posted by: opmoc on Sep 10, 2008 5:11 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
O.K. - Maybe Quite a Few Years BEFORE You established YOUR Realationships with The ISI and CIA and FBI (Pakistan US Department)

I had a Girlfriend Who Came From Manchester UK ENGLAND Working For The Best UK Competitor TO IBM in West Gorton Manchester After We Invented The Fucking Electronic Computer at Manchester University

And My Girlfriend Had Parents Who Were Born in Pakistan

And She Was Nominally a Muslim - But Introduced Me To Neil Young

And When Her Parents Found Out That - I a Useless Working Class English Oik Had Fallen In Love With Their Daughter

They Just Made Her Dissappear To an Arranged Marriage in Pakistan

This Was About 1976

Were You Fucking Pakistani's in 1976?

Cos I Wasn't

I Respected Her Virginity and our cultural differences - I merely fell in LOve With Her

I Couldn't Give a Fuck That She Was Black and I was White - That She Was Nominally Muslim and I was Nominally Catholic

So What The Fuck Fucked That Up?

It Wasn't International Computers Limited

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Democratic Party: Soft on the Criminals Bush and Cheney
Posted by: left_libertarian on Sep 10, 2008 5:33 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why should I vote for the spineless democrats who want the criminals Bush and Cheney free and want to given them a nice big FAT pension and a security detail?????????????????

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Sure Us British Had it Coming To Us - We Had Fucked Over Most Of The World Before America
Posted by: opmoc on Sep 10, 2008 5:57 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But in the 50's, 60's, and 70's

Us English still thought you were our friends

And we welcomed you particularly with your management skills

But You Seriously Fucked Us Over

The most obvious example was Ferranti who my Brother worked for in Oldham

You Completely FUCKED OVER Ferranti in a Most Immoral Way

I Won't Go On about more personal examples

But us English Know we are the Best in The World and We Just Develop The Technology and Don't Patent It - we Make it Freely Available Because It Advances The Human Race

And You Cunts Sidle Up To Us and Pretend To Be Our Friends and Just Steal All Our Work

Well We are Fucked Off With You - Particularly With Your Pathetic Attempts To Steal Oil From Our Neighbours in The Middle East

Just Face It - You Are Barbarians - Go and Fuck The Isralies On Your Only Base in The Middle East

You Are Becoming an Irrelevance

So

FUCK OFF

Love & Peace,

Tony

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If You Deal With Americans With The Expectation That They Will Rob You Blind Given Half a Chance
Posted by: opmoc on Sep 10, 2008 6:32 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You might actually survive.

Russians are Much Easier To Deal With

They Just want to be Friendly and Learn ENGLISH

And Say We Have All This Oil & Gas - You Can Have Some If You Want

Unlike The Stupid Americans "We Know Where It Comes From - But Don't Tell Them Or The Deal is Off"

So since 9/11 we meet Russians on our holidays instead of Americans who are too afraid to come out of their self erected prisons and emotionally embarressing cages (Intelligent Americans Know - They are just to embarrassed to admit it was those Muslim Terrorists who did it from a cave under the Whitehouse (how the Fuck did the ISI not pick them up and stop it - like all good Pakistan American Loving Bin Laden Muslims)

Who Do You Think Did 9/11?

Well So Far as I can Tell It Wasn't The British - But I Have No 95% Proof Russian Vodka - All I've Got is Jack Daniels

Tony

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» Tony's world . . Posted by: 6399
I Don't Normally Do Anti-Muslim Thoughts on An American Website I Normally Convert Them To Arabic
Posted by: opmoc on Sep 10, 2008 6:55 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And Post Them Down The Terrorists Gagging Arseholes So That They Can Appreciate a Bit of English Penis Rather Than an American Bomb

But As I Am In The Mood I Thought I Would Post The Current Number One In Osama Bin Ladens Fucking Capital New York

Performed By A Brilliant Band of Americans in Manchester

Yes We Love Them

LCD Soundsystem Live From Manchester England Where The Electronic Digital Computer Was Not Only Invented But Got Up and Running With Programs (Software For The Slower Amongst You - And I Did Use The American Spelling of Programme So You Could Understand

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why does alternet almost
Posted by: Floresta on Sep 10, 2008 7:00 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
always ask a really dumbass question as a lead in to their articles??? Love Obama? Puhleeze!
I agree with purple girl; a *centrist* dem is hella betta than McSame and his Dinger side kick.
And futhermore, the race for the Oval office ain't the only game going here folks; local offices matter perhaps even more than before as real change starts locally.
At my fantasy dinner gathering I would love to have some of you regular posters as guests:
ANNA, Suzon, GrammaCrabby, Southern Gal, Beck, Hugh Scott, Purple Girl, CatDad, Da Bear, Max Payne, Tom Degan, Solrev, Opmoc, and yes, yes, if we could get him really stoned, Asteroid Miner!!! Santa Cruz is a cool place and the food is organic, the green very good and what can I say, the wine excellent.

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» RE: why does alternet almost Posted by: tdterry1999
The Imperial Presidency
Posted by: gradioc on Sep 10, 2008 7:01 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Everyone here even thinking about voting for McKinney, or Nader, or (God help us) Bob Barr needs to understand that we stand on the edge of a great precipice. This election will determine whether the government of the United States remains a government of laws and not men. There have always been the few that believe we are better off when a strong man, some one of the right breeding and intellect, tells us what to do. It's no accident that the only two families to have both fathers and sons become President (Adams and Bush), both pushed for a Presidency unencumbered by the petty whims of the governed. We are now at the point where The Supreme Court is 5-4 for continuing the American democracy as envisioned in The Constitution. There are 4 Justices who firmly believe the President should be a King, answering only to the electorate every 4 years. If McCain gets elected he will appoint a Justice who agrees and drive the final nail in the coffin of James Madison's great experiment of government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

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Is It Me Insane And AngrY Or Is It YOU For Not PROTESTING About Our Governements Bombing Weddings
Posted by: opmoc on Sep 10, 2008 7:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In AFGHANISTAN

Children are Children

Weddings Are Weddings

No-ONe Gives a FUCK For YoU EVIL POLITICICIANS

JUST FUCK OFF AND DIE

And Leave us Ordinary Humans To Have Weddings and Children and Make Our Own Lives and Our Own Mistakes

We Are DEFENCELESS - All We Can Do Is Try and Make You Realise What You Are Doing To Us and Plead For You To STOP

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This Is What English an American Bombs Do To Innocent People That Is Never Shown On Our TV SCREENS
Posted by: opmoc on Sep 10, 2008 7:36 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, I did get to compare how Mccain campaigned in Fairfax vs Obama in Norfolk
Posted by: maxpayne on Sep 10, 2008 7:40 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This will not change my vote. However, I admit that Obama was only slightly better than Mccain. Mccain's campaigning was filled with a lot of childish nonsense especially from former Hillary voters claiming that they were angry and wanted revenge by voting Mccain. Obama may not be my cup of tea but calling him a 5th grader was morally disgusting. And the voter spoke nothing about the issues which truly matter. Obama, while running a more mature campaign than Mccain, still his spending more time reacting to Mccain's comments rather than going on the offensive on the issues tells me that Obama will NOT stand up to the same rightwing bullies responsible for running the country into the ground for the past 8 years.

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So Who Planted The BOMBS
Posted by: opmoc on Sep 10, 2008 7:54 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To anyone Moderating This Website - I Did Get Banned Froma Major UK Website on 07/07/06 - A Year To The Day After The London Bombings
For Posting The Following WORDS

This is All I Said- And I Got Banned For It - And I Have Never Posted On That Website Again

I Posted

ALL TERRORISTS ARE CUNTS

Video of MULTIPLE BOMBS on 9/11 in New York

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What a disgusting article
Posted by: chlamor on Sep 10, 2008 8:01 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I guess it's all a game.

Posturing, framing blah blah blah...

WTF is wrong with you people who write and believe in this crap be it from either side (meaning the same side) of the delusional and narrow spectrum?

The world is being torn to shreds and we get this pablum?

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Good Morning New York On This Anniversary
Posted by: opmoc on Sep 10, 2008 8:27 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One Of My Mates From Down My Local Pub Was Killed on 9/11

We Thought The GrandMother of The Twin Baby Girls My Wife Was Looking After On That Day Had Also Been Killed

Because She Phoned The Mother of The Twin Baby Girls From Inside One Of The Twin Towers AFTER it had been hit

And Then All Communication Between New York and London Died For a Period of 24 Hours

And Then Her Son Finally Got Through To Her Mum - and She Had Survived

The Twin Baby Girls Are Fine

But 9/11 is Very Personal and I Wanted To Find The TRUTH

It Took Me 18 Months

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3rd party is the only way
Posted by: CUnknown on Sep 10, 2008 9:24 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyone who votes for either McCain or Obama is complicit in the destructive 2-party duopoly which is leading this country and even the entire world to ruin.

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tcejbus
Posted by: Direct Democracy on Sep 10, 2008 11:59 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The term "progressive" is meaningless in the context of modern America.

We're a one party state, each of us trapped in the amber of a lifetime of propaganda.

In reference to the Bush era there are only two classes of people: Those who drank the Kool-Aid and got paid for it and those who drank the Kool-Aid for free.

Obama can't wash us clean. Only justice can do that.

FREE AMERICA

REVOLUTIONARY (DIRECT) DEMOCRACY

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Your right Maxi
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave on Sep 11, 2008 5:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bob Barr is a great choice. But Mr Barr as the same chance of winning as Nader. A vote for Barr is a vote for Obama. But you know that. Thank you though, for looking out for me!

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Ralph Nader is great and all but he did not repair the Green Party for the past 8 years.
Posted by: GrantBurkeVT on Sep 11, 2008 7:53 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Had he taken the time and energy to do so, the Democrats and Republicans would have been forced to pay attention to the actual public concerns by now. I live in a safe Dem state VT but until Ralph can get the support and infrastructure he needs to tackle the corporate elites that own both parties lock stock and barrel, I don't see the point in voting to nowhere. I might not vote at all but if Obama can turn it all around, I'll be confident to go out and vote for him even if I have to vote with a gas mask at the rate he's moving to the right of Bush.

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If we don't ,what is the alternative
Posted by: palm44 on Sep 12, 2008 4:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So you think Obama is too centrist and afraid to fight back. So you are personally offended that he didn't pick Hillary for VP and you refuse to get over it. So you are going to vote for McCain. So there.

Better you should shoot yourself to stop a headache.

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» If we don't what? Posted by: pdxjoe
One Dem lady, a CEO, says Obama "elitist".
Posted by: SamFox on Sep 17, 2008 11:08 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
An empowered lady CEO:


"Hillary fundraiser labels Obama an 'elitist,' will back McCain
Jim Brown - OneNewsNow - 9/17/2008 1:30:00 PMBookmark and Share

GOP and Democratic logosA major Hillary Clinton fundraiser and member of the Democratic National Committee's Platform Committee is now backing Republican presidential nominee John McCain.



Lynn Forester was one of Clinton's "Hillraisers," people who collected at least $100,000 for Clinton's presidential campaign, but now she is throwing her support behind John McCain, not Barack Obama.

Forester -- CEO of a holding company with businesses around the world -- thinks Obama is arrogant and has a problem connecting with average Americans. This is what she had to say about the Democratic nominee recently on CNN.

"Frankly, I don't like him," she stated. "I feel like he's an elitist. I feel like he has not given me reason to trust him."

Danta Scala, a political science professor at the University of New Hampshire, says the Forester endorsement highlights a larger problem for Obama -- connecting with middle-class white voters.

"We've seen that again and again during the primaries for the Democratic presidential nomination. We see it now in the national polls," he points out, "so there is some worry. Now, my guess is that most Hillary Clinton supporters like the one you mentioned -- wealthy Democrats -- [are] going to support Barack Obama, but the real worry for Obama is with working-class white voters in places like Pennsylvania and southern Ohio [and] Michigan."

Scala argues white middle-class voters are a key voting bloc that could go either way in this election, and one that Obama has to work hard to convince that his promises of change will amount to real material changes in their lives."

Looks like some people can actually see...a Dem at that.

SamFox

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