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America Watches the War in Georgia with Dumb Goggles

By Mark Ames, The Nation. Posted August 16, 2008.


The war between Russia and Georgia has been framed as a tale of David versus Goliath. But it's far more complex than this, morally and historically.

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Five days after Georgia invaded and seized the breakaway separatist region of South Ossetia, sparking a larger-scale Russian invasion to drive Georgian forces back and punish their leaders, Russia surprised its Western detractors by calling a halt to the country's offensive. After all, the mainstream media, egged on by hawkish neocon pundits and their candidate John McCain, had everyone believing that Russia was hellbent on the full-scale annihilation and annexation of democratic Georgia.

But then came Tuesday's cease-fire announcement-and we're now forced to ask ourselves serious questions about the recent conflict: what really started it, how dangerous was it and what, with serious careful consideration, could be done to prevent it from turning into a worst-case scenario?

Up until now, this war was framed as a simple tale of Good Helpless Democratic Guy Georgia versus Bad Savage Fascist Guy Russia. In fact, it is far more complex than this, morally and historically. Then there are two concentric David and Goliath narratives here. The initial war pitted the Goliath Georgia-a nation of 4.4 million, with vastly superior numbers, equipment and training thanks to US and Israeli advisers-against David-Ossetia, with a population of between 50,000-70,000 and a local militia force that is barely battalion strength. Reports coming out of South Ossetia tell of Georgian rockets and artillery leveling every building in the capital city, Tskhinvali, and of Georgian troops lobbing grenades into bomb shelters and basements sheltering women and children. Although true casualty figures are hard to come by, reports that up to 2,000 Ossetians, mostly civilians, were killed are certainly believable, given the intensity of the initial Georgian bombardment, the wanton destruction of the city and surrounding regions and the generally savage nature of Caucasus warfare, a very personal game where old rules apply.

But you don't hear about this story from the Western media. Indeed, you hear little if anything about the Ossetians, who seem to hardly exist in the West's eyes, even though their grievance is the root cause of this war.

While Russia and America see the conflict in abstract terms about spheres of influence and protecting allies, for Ossetians, who still recall the centuries of massacres Georgians committed against them, it is highly personal. They will still recall the Georgian massacres in the early 1920s, when Georgia was briefly independent, which exterminated up to 8 percent of the Ossetian population. In 1990, when Georgia was again moving towards independence, the ultranationalist leader Zviad Gamsakhurdia abolished Ossetia's limited autonomy, leading to another Ossetian rebellion that was only quelled by a peace agreement signed by Georgia, Russia and the Ossetians. Gamsakhurdia was subsequently deposed, and Georgia's ethnic chauvinism was shelved until the rise of current president Mikhail Saakashvili in 2003.

Ossetians have traditionally relied on their powerful northern neighbor Russia for protection against Georgia. The Georgians, in turn, have tried to counter Russian hegemony, for which they are no match, by aligning closely with the United States, finding friendly ears among old cold warriors and Bush-era neocons.

When he first rose to prominence, the American-educated Saakashvili was often referred to as "Georgia's Vladimir Zhirinovsky"-the Russian ultranationalist firebrand who once promised to retake Alaska. Although Saakashvili was subsequently rebranded as a Euro-democrat, he promised to reunite Georgia and bring his separatist regions to heel, by force if necessary, whether the aggrieved ethnic groups liked it or not.

At the root of this conflict is a clash of two twentieth-century guiding principles in international relations. Georgia, backed by the West, is claiming its right as a sovereign nation to control the territory within its borders, a guiding principle since World War II. The Ossetians are claiming their right to self-determination, a guiding principle since World War I.

These two guiding concepts for international relations-national sovereignty and the right to self-determination-are locked in a zero-sum battle in Georgia. Sometimes, the West takes the side of national sovereignty, as it is in the current war; other times, it sides with self-determination and redrawing of national borders, such as with Kosovo.


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See more stories tagged with: war, russia, framing, south ossetia

Mark Ames is editor of the Moscow English alt weekly, The eXile. He is the author of Going Postal: Rage, Murder, and Rebellion: From Reagan's Workplaces to Clinton¿s Columbine and Beyond.

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"America could... rethink its entire geopolitical approach"
Posted by: huricane on Aug 16, 2008 12:59 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Excuse me while I laugh my ass off. They are not going to suddenly have the epiphany that for so long now they've been doing it all wrong. The Bush Politburo's geopolitical approach is working out exactly as planned. You and I are useful to the system only as long as we have money to spend (ours or the bank's), and so long as we don't get too fidgety or ask a lot of questions.

Sorry America, if you're still thinking of your government as well-meaning but prone to making those darn silly mistakes, then you're not thinking. Get mad. Get active. Get change going.

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» "America could..."??? Posted by: Sanford
George W. in Georgia -- just like his daddy in Iraq 17 years ago.
Posted by: HughScott on Aug 16, 2008 1:34 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Has anyone noticed the similarity -- father and son cowards-in-chief who turned tail during wartime, then lied about it to win the White House?

In WWII, Big George bailed out on his Navy flight crew and let them die in a pilotless plane crash at sea. Four decades later, his perfectly-cloned first son bailed out of the Air National Guard and went AWOL. How the yellow-belly bastards got to be presidents of the United States shows what stupid and gullible people we Americans are.

Consider Iraq War Number One. After our troops cleaned the Republican Guard's clock and we signed the cease-fire agreement, Big George urged Iraqi freedom fighters to revolt against Saddam, then sat on his hands and did nothing while the Baghdad Bad Guy slaughtered the insurgents with helicopter gunships our negotiators forgot about when approving the armistice.

Now Bush 43 has done the same thing in Georgia after supplying our new European friends with arms and promises of U.S. protection. Unfortunately for them, like in Iraq many years ago, it's all "Huff & Puff & I'll Blow Your House Down" to the Russians from another cut-and-run commander-in-chief.


Hugh E. Scott, Vietnam vet [For the benefit of first-time AlterNet visitors]
Seven Reasons to Vote Against Unfit McCain

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What happened to you Mark Ames?
Posted by: Thomas33333 on Aug 16, 2008 2:04 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mark,

I've been a big fan of your work on The Exile, but your latest piece on the this conflict is a disappointment.

This conflict differs from Kosovo in one glaring aspect. Over the course of the 1990s, the Serbs had engaged in mass genocide of their ethnic minorities in Bosnia and Croatia, and Kosovo was next. The Serbs had to be stopped. Any recent comparison to what is going on in Georgia is unvalid as both breakaway regions have been effectively under the control of Russian "peacekeepers" for the past 15 years and there has been no genocide.

Furthermore, there has been surprisingly very little evidence of the so-called 2,000 civilian deaths that is oft repeated as justification for this invasion (http://tinyurl.com/5s4g5s). Where are the dead bodies? Unless you find me proof that the Georgians had been engaging in the same degree of genocide as the Serbs, the Kosovo argument is simply not valid.

Finally, why didn't the Russian government show the same level of sympathethy to the Chechchens, as they are now showing the South Ossetians and the Abkhaz when they declared their independence backin 1994? I seem to recall that when Russia had a similar break-away province problem in the 1990s (Chechnya), it showed little hesitation in brutally suppressing them and killing tens of thousands of their own citizens in the process, claiming that whatever happens inside Russia was no one else's business.

While you are right to claim that Saakashvili is no saint, he is moving Georgia in the right direction, which is a far cry from the current situation in Russia as you should know very well.

Putin's problem is that he cannot tolerate a free, open, democratic and prosperous nation on his borders. And if the west does nothing to stop Putin, he will engineer a simialr crisis in the Crimea and invade in a few years time. I'm glad our policy makers are seeing Putin for what he is and I hope Western Europe will wake and deal with this threat.

What happened to you Mark? YOu are not the same fearless journalist I read in Moscow 10 years ago. YOur arguements are almost the same as the Russian government's verbatim. I feel sorry for you.

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» "Invade"..... Posted by: mjabele
» RE: "Invade"..... Posted by: EncinoM
USA why they hate you??
Posted by: richholland on Aug 16, 2008 3:39 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
USA wants to protect the Georgian pipeline,
Georgia wants to be member of NATO
USA wants to install rocketshields in Poland and Czechoslawakije.

I lost members of my family, killed by the communists but the naievity of american citizens is abhorrent.
Remember Mr>BUsh says FREEDOM and DEMOCRAZy it means oil and gas.
Free Trade means more money for the already RICH
and suffering for the already poor.

Stop bullying because many people in the world are fed up.....
Remember the normal attitude of the USA is to install a dictator who will serve the american corporations BUT since in every country young people go to school sooner or later there is a demasque and american boys and girls can fight for what????
Maybe Neocons need war to install the AllAmerican Universal War Hero McCain...McCain...

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Some Years Ago
Posted by: Last Chance on Aug 16, 2008 5:58 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
somebody wrote or said that expansionist nationalism, and its ancestor aggressive tribalism, are a mental illness. The events in Southern Russia appear to prove that, everybody armed to the teeth against everybody who's not part of their growing extended family, tribe and wanna-be nation.

So, where is the dis-United Nations and wimpy Moon, that pitiful bureaucrat? If he had a brain in his head he would be saying what I am saying and anyone who sees the disgusting similarity between events in Southern Russia and various regions of Africa, both so cursed by clan hatreds they can't see beyond their tiny little enclaves of tribal power they yearn to expand -- and ALL an expression of male supremacy, each macho chieftain promoting the superiority of his family name, clan identity, would-be nation and struggling to impose his own little empire to compete with the big empires, Russia, America, China, or who and whatever! It's a global madhouse with the human species as nut-case number one!

Could there be a better argument for family planning Worldwide to reduce the human population and prevent these insane wars between expanding empires and the growing mass of their imitators?!

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America Watches the War in Georgia with Dumb Goggles - by Mark Ames
Posted by: Europehouse on Aug 16, 2008 6:08 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your article is right on target and touches the root of the matter about the Georgian and Russian conflict. It should be required reading for every member of the Bush Administration and most of the US corporate controlled press.

http://www.eu-digest.com

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» So what if they did read it? Posted by: Last Chance
gathaiga
Posted by: gathaiga on Aug 16, 2008 6:55 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Americans tend to view most of the world, near and far, through "dumb goggles".

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The Old Russia is on a rebound
Posted by: Richard House on Aug 16, 2008 7:01 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and using WWII tactics which seem to be working against the complaisant and energy-dependent Europeans and those Americans who are determined to save the world from tyrannies. Those Americans do have a point. America, ironically it seems, may be the world’s last hope against bullies. And the complaisant Europeans are failing to realize the true danger of Russia’s recent aggression. Some other points:

The old Tsarist-Soviet imperial Russia is still there in the national consciousness (Alexander Solzhenitsyn knew this) still determined to use its military for political and economic means just like the “benign” Americans have been doing for decades.

I don’t think Mark Ames goes back far enough in the history of the conflict between Georgia and Ossetia and Abkhazia to clarify, since the mess started around 9 B.C.,that both sides were committing atrocities and fighting against each other for centuries and so no one can say for sure who really started it. There’s no Hebrew God to make a claim.

There’s no way to look at this but with sarcasm. Now, because of Russia, Ossetia and Abkhazia will be saved from Georgian supremacy and now they will become Russian and not Georgian subjects and maybe will be dominated by Russia.

The Russians are counting on the U.S. and Europe doing nothing.

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» RE: The Old Russia is on a rebound Posted by: Richard House
» Where can I park this thing Posted by: LionHeart
The USA has tortured the world for too long with lies and mass murder
Posted by: homeopath on Aug 16, 2008 7:08 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author speaks about the last two decades of American bullying.
What about all the other decades? My entire lifetime is imprinted with the lies and murderous greed of the disgusting American elite behind the arrogant and torturing policies of the f****** USA!

The last commenter is right. The worst part is the fact that all the American talk about great principles of human self governance they supposedly believe in are a bunch of fig-leaf-crap. Those same values, therefore, are ground into the dirt with the reality of abuse of peoples all over the planet. Hunger and terror are the legacy of US policies everywhere. Just look at the devastation of Haiti, a most admirable people, still starving, still fighting for self determination...still murdered by a misused UN force under control of the US/France and Canada.

Even in a case as blatant as Cambodia under Pol Pot, the US & friends had to further punish the Cambodian people - after the Vietnamese put a stop to one of the world's worst regimes, itself partially brought about by US crimes- with their childish hatred for the Vietnamese, who beat their arrogant US asses just previously in THEIR country... and are still suffering from US chemical warfare effects and the enormous military destruction poured on them in that disaster! ( Not to mention the suffering of US soldiers during and AFTER that war...)

Iran, Iraq, Indonesia, Mozambique, Angola, Nicaragua, Honduras, Guatemala, Chile, Palestine, Somalia, Panama, Grenada, Venezuela, etc., etc., everywhere convenient for the mighty US the destruction of lives on a massive scale is inflicted - for sheer market dominance!

Of course the US and its henchman Israel are to blame for the idiot Sakaashvili's aggression. The Poland missile deal only makes things worse - and we all are at risk from the stupidity of nuclear roulette...

It is time to bring down the world bully! Never mind who else is wrong. Let's start with the biggest offender. Luckily, it is destroying itself. Morally and economically. Look around you... ( To think that I was a US fan once...)

Shame on the perpetrators and apologists, and hope for a better world - even for the multitudes of American citizens who, though ignorant - are suffering from the abuse of their own elite: They can't even have a bloody universal health care system in that fortress of freedom-and-ever-promised-happiness, or at least the eternal pursuit thereof.

That is the real world of the world's mightiest military power: After all the horrors committed by it all over my world, all the tears, all the anguish, all the pain inflicted - a miserable reality for many millions of its own citizens, with millions imprisoned, in their own country...the American way of life.

"War on terror", George?...
STOP the terror! STOP the export! Thanks - but NO thanks!

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Let the people of Abkhazia and Ossetia have a voice.....
Posted by: mjabele on Aug 16, 2008 8:26 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What history tells us about the conflicts between these various ethnic groups is, in the final analysis, that NEITHER side has any sort of "irrefutable" territorial claim over the other. I'm quite familiar with the history of Abkhazia, and the historical record is pretty clear that this territory "traveled separately" from Georgia for rather long periods of its history. There is a historical connection between the countries, yes, but there are also long periods of time during which Abkhazia was effectively independent, and others during which it was territorially integrated into Turkey or tsarist Russia.

However much some Westerners might want to believe otherwise, it's difficult to visualize "re-integrating" these territories peaceably back into Georgia given what's happened over the past few decades. I think it's hard for us to understand why this should be so, given that few of us have experienced such levels of violence, ethnic cleansing, and prolonged economic suffering in our own lives (let me add here that Georgia managed to get the international community to agree to an economic embargo against Abkhazia following the 1992-93 conflict, which led directly to the severe, ongoing humanitarian suffering which prompted my own "deployment" as a volunteer physician to the territory in 2000-2001).

The bottom line is that I don't think the Ossetians or Abkhaz can co-exist with Georgians in the same state at this point in time. This is the "reality on the ground", so to speak, and no amount of pontificating by Westerners sitting thousand of miles away in comfortable armchairs will change this basic truth. In that sense, the Russians strike me as being right - the future of these territories will need to be decided by the people living in them, regardless of what diplomats in the West think "ought to be best" for the populations involved and for the "territorial integrity" of Georgia. In the final analysis, I don't believe that "territorial integrity" should take precedence over the more basic human right of individuals to feel physically secure in the places where they live.

No doubt there ARE "great power politics" going on here as well, and the West has reason to look at Russian motives with justifiable skepticism. But the fact remains that Russia behaved appropriately here, curbing Georgia's aggression against a civilian population which, based on past historical events, already has good reason to regard its physical and economic security to be at risk were it to come back under Georgian rule, and which has repeatedly indicated in the past that it wants to separate from Georgia.

Forcing people to "eat together at the same table", so to speak, when they've previously been engaged in pillaging and killing each other's relatives and friends for years/decades, is simply unrealistic beyond a certain point. Sadly, there's been too much water under the bridge here to simply imagine that we can convince all the parties that "bygones should be bygones".

Let Abkhazia and Ossetia choose their own political futures, and negotiate instead for those Georgian refugees who want to return to these territories be allowed to do so, on the understanding that they'll agree to become citizens of these new polities.

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Did Saakashvili campaign for election on the promise of invading?
Posted by: Sojourner on Aug 16, 2008 8:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I appreciate the discussion here, since the US media paint a picture of righteous Georgia and sinister Russia.

I confess that I did not pay attention to the stories, if there were any, of the Georgian invasion. If Saakashvili got himself elected by promising a war, the US again has backed the wrong horse.

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Have any polls been taken...
Posted by: war_on_tara on Aug 16, 2008 9:33 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...of how many Americans think Russia has invaded the other Georgia? The one with Atlanta and Savannah?

I mean, we make jokes about it but I would probably hate to see the poll figures.

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Saakashvili badly overplayed his hand
Posted by: Garvagh on Aug 16, 2008 10:23 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Great piece! The surprise attack launched by Georgia, to capture the capital of South Ossetia, included rocket fire, artillery and tanks. This was an act of serious stupidity given that Russian soldiers were known to be in the line of fire.

How much did John McCain and Randy Scheunemann have to do with creating this disaster? McCain and Scheunemann openly were hostile to Russia and virtually contemptuous of legitimate security interests clearly voiced by Vladimir Putin and other Russian leaders.

Israel and the US have been training the Georgian military and supplying armaments, while being fully aware of Saakashvili's openly stated determination to end the "problems" posed by South Ossetian and Abkhazian disaffection.

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Good Guys and Bad Guys
Posted by: chorton on Aug 16, 2008 10:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Are the Russians the Bad Guys? Are "We" the Good Guys? And whom do we mean by "We"?

As usual the media is framing this in terms of the model of two guys in a bar having a showdown. Us and Them, Good and Bad. "We" are America, or the "Free World" (whatever *that* is supposed to mean), "They" are Russia. The Bear. The Barbarian. Two actors playing "king of the mountain" somewhere Over There.

This kind of simplistic model cripples the ability of the people to think. It is much more powerful - but harder - to use a model of nations as having internal structure. Even a two-part model - the rulers and the people - is a huge improvement over the "guy in a bar" model of a nation.

Vast amounts of money, effort and intimidation have been expended on the suppression of the two-actor model. In the universities, the argument, rightly, is that the two-actor model is too simplistic. But rather than elaborating on it by increasing its complexity one step at a time and testing its predictive power, they jettison it and try to replace it with something which contains no implied social criticism. Models with ten categories, a hundred, a thousand! Models where what category someone is in depends on how they think or describe themselves, how they dress, what color their skin is, where they went to school, where their parents came from, how they react when the band plays "Dixie"! The very word "class" - as in "working class" and "ruling class" - has been expunged from their language!

Now, all of this can be pretty interesting, and generations of scholars have spent lifetimes amusing themselves with it. But in the meantime, the media barons are still using the "two guys in a bar" model to lead us around by the nose and enroll us in their wars!

We need to train ourselves to think in more complex terms, to break free of the media's "us" and "them" categories, to see conflicts such as the one playing out in Georgia as involving multiple "thems", and to think more realistically about what we mean by "us" and "our" stake in it. And beyond that, we need to make the mental shift from "we" meaning "you, me, George Bush, Bill Gates and their friends in Georgia" to "you, me, Filipp who teaches school in Georgia, Misha the store clerk in Moscow and Yury who drives a truck in South Ossetia".

Next we need to find a way to communicate this way of thinking to the 98% of the American people who get their images of the world and their and language for describing it from FOX, CNN and ABC.

Our rulers have on their side the power of a vast, hundred-year-old propaganda and information-delivery system, with hundreds of thousands of employees - millions, if the textbook industry, the schools and the universities are included. We have on our side the truth that their system isn't meeting and cannot meet the needs of the people and is leading us to destruction. Many of them don't truly believe the things they say, or even that "truth" and "reality" have any objective meaning, while we live in a real world. If they rule by fear it reflects the fact that they live with a knawing fear - of us, and of the truth about themselves. And while what Obama is offering is arguably "phoney baloney", there can be no arguing with the demonstration he has given of the power of hope to arouse the people!

Finally, if we can build good communications, we have a huge advantage in numbers!

The crisis in Georgia is one more demonstration of what is at stake: whether we and our children and our great-great-grandchildren are to have a future. For our sake and theirs, we need to get clear about who is leading us to destruction, and to shake ourselves and each other free of the mental snares they use to suck us into their ghastly enterprises.

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As crazy at this may seem
Posted by: bettyn on Aug 16, 2008 11:00 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would not put it past Bush and Company to have started this mess (and thus reigniting the Cold War) solely to keep them and their corporate pig allies in power for another four years!

President Dumbfuck is the most dangerous man on earth....besides his puppet master Dick Cheney. The Democrats should have IMPEACHED their butts the day they took over Congress! Unfortunately, they acted like a bunch of wusses and obeyed their corporate masters, too.

OVERTHROW THESE PIGS AND THROW THEM ALL OUT!

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But how?
Posted by: Godfather89 on Aug 16, 2008 11:46 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't want the world thinking that EVERY American is stupid or see's things darkly, with a dim lite over their head. How can a REAL American actually reach out to help show that their are still Americans out their who are not stupid?

On this article my comment is 5 out of 5. Its true.

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» RE: But how? Posted by: Sanford
» RE: But how? Posted by: Godfather89
Only one person mentioned the pipeline
Posted by: manderson on Aug 16, 2008 12:45 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This event in Georgia is the opening shot in Peak Oil energy wars of the future....in which the U.S. will have negotiate and be nice, because we do not have the capacity to hold down a two-front war, much less a multi-front war---our Corporatist neo-con-vict Empire Project is crumbling. Might teach us a lesson about getting along with others, although I certainly don't expect any neo-con-victs or their Financial/General Population Neanderthal followers and cohorts to give up easily.

A few years ago, Putin threw the President of Yukos Oil into jail, because he was about ready to ink a deal with Chevron to have a controlling interest in Yukos. Russia is belligerent, true, but they also do want a repeat of the fall of Communism, where Wall Street interests looted Russia's cash reserves with the help of Boris Yeltsin. How would Americans feel if China, for instance, decided to dump dollars (not a far-fetched scenario, given the amount of dollars they hold), crash the U.S. economy totally, and loot our treasury while 10% of OUR population died of starvation and alcoholism? And then march in and take our Coal? It would certainly feel a bit different to be on the receiving end of force, and not be able to do anything about it, eh? American Oil interests are ready and willing to loot and shoot (by proxy, of course) anywhere...witness Africa.

As a side note to this---according to Michael Klare in "Blood and Oil", the U.S. used up a THIRD of it's domestic energy reserves persecuting WW2. Sure be nice to have them around now. Any doubts about war being wasteful as hell, as well as being destructive as hell? As the ghetto kids interviewed briefly on TV on 9/11 said..."the chickens have come home to roost."

And remember the Golden Rule....it won't cure every bit of evil in the world, but it'll sure go a ways to HELP. At present our particular bunch of pirates practice the Ed "Big Daddy" Roth version of the Golden Rule----"Do unto others, then split."

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Superiority of the American military?
Posted by: zorba1 on Aug 16, 2008 2:00 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I keep hearing this same old tag.
Do people think the Russians have been sitting on their hands for almost two decades?
Remember the stealth fighter which crashed in the Serbian war?
The Russians carted it home, they know our technology better than the sneaking Chinese do.
Russia has more nukes than we do, and possibly better delivery systems.
True they have dismantled a couple thousand old and ever aging nukes of little practicle value but new vastly more advanced multiple war heads are in place targeting yours truely.
Their Airforce is second to none, we just might find out who is #1 if bushchen keeps pushing the issue, if anyone happens to survive.
When i heard gates talk about possible military action or the lack of it i was almost astounded.
It has got to be more hot air, how arrogant.
King Bush has totally gone drunk on his power as to cloud any resonable train of thought.I hope and pray he and cheney do not start WWIII in the next 4 and a 1/2 months.
Hooray for the Russians, i applaud them.
A job well done, don't stop now. F**k Bush, cheney, gates and rice.
I saw the bodies of hundreds of dead Ossetian men, women and children on European news services, you will not see them on American TV.

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PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY
Posted by: gtkysor on Aug 16, 2008 2:43 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When the Georgian military began the present confrontation by firing on South Ossetia (which they knew full well contained Russian "peacekeepers") the new Russian president was reported to be on vacation, the new Russian premier, Puten, was reported to be attending the Olympic games in China, as was president Bush, while the Georgian president and his defense minister (according to what the Georgian president said at yesterday's joint press conference with Condi Rice) were both also on vacation!

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It's getting a bit cold in here!
Posted by: Karl.Ben on Aug 16, 2008 3:41 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Slice it as you might, Russia's invasion of Georgia is nothing more than that. But it goes beyond Ossetia which officially is a part of Georgia.

Putin has been on a role to reclaim Russian dominance in the region by force. It's apparent that this move is designed to send a message to other nations "we're back". KGB at it's best!

It seems it has resulted in the US and Poland agreeing to install anti missiles now. And the cold war continues! Instead of missiles the new weapon is oil. I think Russia has the lead.

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People are not a factor in theaters of conflict. Only Powers play.
Posted by: common intelligence on Aug 16, 2008 6:59 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But yet maybe not that either.

If one looks behind all these fancy staging curtains that depict these alleged struggles between tribes, of regions, they will find the people matter little or none.

The staging in story telling is all about distracting people from the root causers of the illusion being shown and talked about. Mark Ames, here is caught up in the so called archaical "historical" story in order to some how put Humpty Dumpty together again, like a Forensic TV show to create front page reason for this calamity. It's just as the main stream media continue perpetuating the lies of 911 so that future history accept the lies as truth.

This is the 21st century. "People" (except the stagers) know that this whole sequence of social unrests that is being ignited from before 911 is being intensionally lit in order to establish a dynamic portrayal of military power over the power of the people to stop their unacceptable ideologies of the right to self determination.

(Dwindling) Energy resources, including the talk of "money", are the underlying bait used to instill the fear. Full blowen might of the militaries are used justify the fears people are lead to believe.

The only reason the "big boys" are making showings of power and murder in the Ukraine region is make "people" believe they have to "side" with "power" to have peace and freedom. But.......
Democracy doesn't matter.
Anarchy doesn't matter either.
Religion doesn't matter (thank God!)
Blood shed and lives don't matter.
Money doesn't matter.
Good guy bad guy doesn't matter either.

What matters is open trade routes between the Black sea and the Caspian Sea. And the control of Governements* not "people".

WHen the people no longer "resist" from within or out side. The new paradiam will be established !
(Remember the Borg? "restistance is futile. You will be assimulated".)

*(That means unaccountability for the governments and pirates that are running the world now.)

The only thing I don't understand is why these pirates, like Bush, Putin, etc. even have this mind set to dominate control over people in the world. All I can figure is Humans make it happen and humans let it happen because the actual intelligence level of humans is so over rated they expect more than is actually possible on both sides of the equation.

The future of humanity is projected in a sterile vision that doesn't include the planet we live on.

When people step out of the process by stopping their particpation in the false speed at which the world has come to believe is required to run at, the energy wasted on the (non)sence of urgency all these crucial events unfold as, will loose there power over the emotions of man kind.
Then people will be able to think and respond instead of re-act to all that is necessary within the mental capabilities of the average intellegence required of life.

Other wise like the lemmings.........over the cliff you all go.

Oh, one final thing. Please, those who write, stop Stop STOP making reference to the names of nations like the Americans, Russians, or any "national" directive as though the people of these establishments
agree, accept or side in think with the source of the military or governmental actions.

The people of these countries have nothing to do with the actions of the leaders as the establishment would like everyone to believe.

All these actions take place without the approval of the people.
Yet "they" would have the world believe to the contrary simply because, as a democratic people, because we vote, we "stand behind the decissions of the established leaders".

WE DON'T (unless you're an idiot!)

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what's what according to a retired USMN Col, who's currently living in Russia
Posted by: Setnakt on Aug 16, 2008 7:53 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The following isn't from me but rather from a friend I've known long enough to KNOW this IS the truth. The rest is a bunch of western propaganda...

(From Thu, 14 Aug 2008)

In 1991 South Ossitia was promised independence from the Soviet Union, and the Georgian Republic. However, when Georgia became independent it saw an opportunity to grab some land, and the terminals for two major oil pipelines. Since Georgia is essentially bankrupt and an economic basket case they saw this as a viable option.

It should also be understood that contrary to the 30 years old CIA report that is being circulated, Georgia is now over 60% Muslem, with radical Muslems controling the government, and South Ossittia --which is surrounded on three sides by Georgia -- is over 80% Orthodox Christian. This is something else that amazes me about Bush's choice of "allies".

They essentially invaded South Ossitia and installed a rather brutal military government. The South Ossitians did not want to be grabbed and they fought back, and in the fighting some Russian cities were damaged just across the border and there were a number of civilian casualties. Russia essentially said "Quit damaging our cities" and sent Russian troops to see that no more Russian cities were damaged. They became the main component in a small international (with Azerbaizhan and Tdjikistan) peacekeeping force in the region.

Comes last Thursday and the Georgians attack the Russians in South Ossitia. Once again they are trying to isolate and grab those two oil terminals. As a preparatory move to this, they began shelling the Russian forces stationed in the area as peacekeepers... and once again overshot and shelled two small Russian towns across the border. The Russians come in to evacuate the Russian wounded and put fresh troops in place to keep the Georgians and South Ossitians from tearing up Russian cities and killing more Russian civilians in their own country. They also intended to stop a relentless Katucha rocket bombardment and standard artillery bombardment of the South Ossitian capital (which has no military significance) and has already reduced it to a pile of gravel and fine white powder -- with over 2,000 known civilian casualties, mostly the elderly and children.

The Russians tried to send in relief supplies (for all parties) and the Georgians to sink the unarmed, civilian transport ship. A Russian Krivak class frigate that was on a routine patrol out of Sevastopol picked up the SOS and responded. An 120 ft. missile boat is not much of a match for a Krivak class frigate... enough said. The result was splinters and an oil slick but not before the freighter had been seriously damaged and sustained numerous casualties.

The UN is sending in supplies, and no one stops them.

Because there is strong reason to believe that the US has been aiding the Georgians in the fight (just over 1,500 "advisors" on the ground from Blackwater that are demonstrable and massive shipments of US arms and ammunition for the past 18 months) the Russians are suspicious of US aid, especially when it comes aboard military ships and airplanes. Comes the day the US sends aid via civilian vessels, the Russians will have no objections and have made it clear that such aid would be welcomed by all parties.

The French president is involved in hammering out a ceasefire that seemst to be holding because the Russians and the Georgians and the South Ossitians all feel that he can be impartial because "he ain't got no dog in this fight." Still the Georgians have not completely ceased their offensive. They recently began shelling a Russian column that was withdrawing from South Ossitia along the only servicable road in the region. They waited until the column was dead in the middle of the town of Gori before opening fire.
(Continued..)

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» ...continued (part 2) Posted by: Setnakt
Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
Unfit McCain claims his POW experience makes him capable of dealing with Russia.
Posted by: HughScott on Aug 16, 2008 9:40 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
During a speaker's forum featuring Barack Obama and John McCain in Lake Forest, California, hosted by Rev. Rick Warren on August 15, 2008, the Arizona senator played his well-worn POW card several times to prove he was capable of dealing with Russian military adventurism.

On one occasion, he described being tortured by the North Vietnamese. In his 1999 autobiography, Faith of My Fathers, McCain said the torture took place in an enemy prison camp called "The Plantation."

On March 25, 1999, two POWs, Ted Guy and Gordon Larson, told the Phoenix New Times that they could not guarantee McCain had been tortured before his interrogations.

Said Larson to the New Times, “Between the two of us, it is our belief, and to the best of our knowledge, that no prisoner was beaten or harmed physically in that camp [The Plantation]. My only contention with the McCain deal is that while he was at The Plantation, to the best of my knowledge and Ted’s, he was not physically abused in any way. No one was in that camp. It was the camp that people were released from.”

In 2005, the late great war hero, Colonel David Hackworth, a popular TV guest commentator who received 78 combat awards, including the Distinguished Service Cross, Silver Star, Bronze Star and eight Purple Hearts during Korean and Vietnam conflicts, wrote the following about McCain:

Accounts by McCain and other writers tell of
the horror he endured: relentlessly beatings,
torture, broken limbs--all inflicted during
savage interrogations. Yet no other POW was
a witness to these accounts. A former POW
says, “No man witnessed another man during
interrogations. We relied on each other to
tell the truth when a man was returned to his
cell.”

The United States Navy says two eyewitnesses
are required for any award of heroism. But
for the valor awards McCain received, there
were no eyewitnesses, less himself and his
captors.


Col. Hackworth ended his article with:

McCain certainly doesn't appear to be a war
hero by conventional standards, but rather a
tough survivor whose handlers are overplaying
the war hero card.


During Rev. Warren's speaking forum, McCain was asked about his greatest test of courage. Again playing the POW card, he said it was when the North Vietnamese offered to release him early and he turned it down.

Col. Hackworth addressed that issue as well in his article by asserting:

McCain refused an early release. An act of
valor? Three former POWs told me he was
ordered to turn it down by his American POW
commander and he “just followed orders.


Hackworth didn't state the obvious, that had McCain violated his POW commander's order and gone back to the United States early, he would have humiliated his family and ruined his Navy career.

To Vietnam veterans who know about the senator's REAL war record, he is a traitor who gave up military secrets in return for hot coffee, cigarettes and other special favors from the enemy. For that reason, the North Vetnamese contemptuously nicknamed him "Songbird." Some Vietnam vets call McCain the "Manchurian Candidate."

Most certainly, rather than a principled patriot, Songbird McCain is a pandering politician who will say anything to win an election. Unfortunatey for freedom-loving Americans, the war hero charade will probably work.

Get ready for another four years of absolute rightwing Republican misery.


Hugh E. Scott, Vietnam vet (for the benefit of new AlterNet visitors)
Seven reasons to vote against Unfit McCain

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nuclear
Posted by: ohjeezigotaids on Aug 16, 2008 11:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i would totally hate to get bombed...
that's for sure.

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Anchorman at NBC
Posted by: zorro on Aug 17, 2008 4:19 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm in CHina. On CCTV--'the only English speaking channel in CHIna' theanchorman from NBC, some fascist name like Biil neelson or some 'leave it to beaver' shit was being interviewed and managed to plug in that Russia did NOT understand the spirit of the Olympics because they invaded Georgia--he said with a fascist shit-eating grin. I was disgusted. NO mention of Fascist evil America invading and occupying Afghanistan, Iraq, and talk of IRAn--no mention of our infanticide, or our illegal crimes against humanity in the middle east and elsewhere in the world--we have been bombing Iraq for twenty years,raping,murdering, using chemical warfare and illegal cluster bombs with pride (I know I used them), with patriotism...how the fuck in the name of the made-up gods can these fascists hypocrites say Russia doesn't understand the spirit of the Olympics?! What fucking right do these un-American baby killers in Washington and in the media have to make these claims? These people need to be smacked down and locked away in a dark hole forever! Start with the mainstream anchormen and women, the newspapermen, and demons like Rupert Murdoch--all that ilk. They are a scourge on the earth and humanity--and history for that matter. Democracy no longer works in America--we need to march on the capital and all their secret bunkers and physically remove them from power,and start over--we have that right! It is what our fore-fathers requested. We do not install anybody after--we invite the UNited Nations to protect us and we hold popular elections. NO man or women who has thus far served shall be allowed to serve--they shall be regarded as prisoners of war or consultants. Stop all production and transportation. We need the military to hear us--do not go to work. Set up alternative markets. Simply do not acknowledge the traitors to humanity and their institutions. I am not with any survivalist or anarchist group. I cannot be put in a box or pigeon-holed. I am A citizen of the world who recognizes when I'm being lied to and manipulated. We are treated like children--worse--because i will never treat my children like they are ignorant fools. All I ask for is fair and broad analysis in my media and government. What's so terrible about that? All I ask for is social justice. The fascist government must be removed. Otherwise we are no better than Nazis or the French who did nothing under Nazi rule (those French who did nothing). Hmm, reminds me of Iraq. If they do not consider you an insurgent, you are an appeaser.

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» RE: Anchorman at NBC...yes Posted by: Captainmagic
Saakashvili is a weasal, arrogant and very dangerous
Posted by: Bobsays on Aug 17, 2008 5:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He not only committed a huge war crime by attacking South Ossetia, he is deliberately trying to drag the west into a war with Russia. He stifles opposition in Gerogia and is not the champion of democracy and freedom he claims (similar to Bush on this).

We will come to regret listening to the rantings of the Caucus idiot.

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If Obama doesn’t pick Hillary for his running mate, War-monger McCain will win in November
Posted by: HughScott on Aug 17, 2008 10:11 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I couldn’t help feeling alarmed after watching the August 15 speakers’ forum hosted by Rev, Rick Warren that featured McCain and Barack Obama.

Going first, McCain answered questions by Rev. Warren that were supposedly kept secret before the evening event. As reported by the Los Angeles Times, McCain “had the easier task in the back-to-back interviews before about 2,800 members of the evangelical church in Lake Forest. He drew frequent applause with crisp answers intended to reinforce his conservative credentials.”

“McCain, an Episcopalian who attends a Baptist church in Phoenix, has frequently been criticized by evangelical leaders for failing to speak as openly about his faith as Obama and for relying on well-worn stories about how he found God as a prisoner of war in Vietnam. He did not diverge from that practice Saturday night.”

When asked about abortion, according to the L.A. Times, “McCain immediately responded that a baby's rights begin at conception. Perhaps seeking to tamp down alarm among conservatives over his recent comment that he's open to a running mate who favors abortion rights, he continued: ‘I will be a pro-life president, and this presidency will have pro-life policies.’"

McCain’s uncompromising position on abortions should worry women who believe in choice -- Democrats, Republicans and independents. It so happens they were Hillary’s core constituency in the primary elections. No one can better represent their interests than Senator Clinton.

If Obama chooses someone else for his running mate, he will pass up the opportunity of winning over the 18 million Americans who voted for Hillary in the primaries. In that case, Barack will lose to Unfit McCain and our national rightwing Republican nightmare will continue, to include a war with Iran, maybe against Russia.

Hugh E. Scott, Vietnam veteran (for the benefit of new AlterNet visitors)
Seven reasons to vote against McCain

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let me see if I've got this straight:
Posted by: hurricane hugo on Aug 17, 2008 11:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Georgia picks a fight, gets their asses kicked...and I'm supposed to feel sorry for them?
No cigar, G - I'm from Detroit, and the 1st thing you learn growing up here is "don't start shit you can't finish".

jdfu!

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Only a crazy man
Posted by: Last Chance on Aug 17, 2008 12:08 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
would deliberately try to provoke World War Three, so that means President Bush, Vice President Cheney and Carl Rove are insane and should all be arrested immediately and removed from the White House, while there is still time!

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Setnak's comment confirmed my suspicions that the neocons in Washington...
Posted by: HughScott on Aug 17, 2008 7:00 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
with the approval of PNAC member Unfit McCain, want to gin up a second Cold War to carry on their imperialistic agenda.

How else do you explain President Bush apparently ignoring CIA intelligence reports about Russian tank and troop movements along the Georgian border before the invasion?

I believe Bush WANTED Russia to attack Georgia. That's why he was having such good time with Putin at the opening Olympic ceremonies. I wouldn't surprised if Putin had leaked the pending "surprise" attack to Dub-ya before hand.

One more thing. According to rummors, when Bush gave the Russians the green light to attack Georgia, he asked them not to burn down Atlanta.

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"Dumb?" That's offensive...
Posted by: kiel on Aug 17, 2008 8:29 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...to the mute community. (See the article on Tropic Thunder.)

And "dumb goggles," well, that's just a nonsequitor.

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ATTENTION vets: In one of his comments on this thread, Lionheart smeared the late great war hero...
Posted by: HughScott on Aug 17, 2008 10:52 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Colonel David Hackworth, a much-decorated career Army officer, Vietnam combat legend and popular TV guest commentator.

During his 25 years in the military, which spanned the Korean and Vietnam conflicts, “Hack” received 78 combat awards, including the Distinguished Service Cross, Silver Star, Bronze Star and eight Purple Hearts.

Despite his sterling reputation of a genuine war hero, the reason I use him as an information source, Lionheart wrote the following in one of his comments above:

"Hackworth was run out of the military for trying to discredit other senior military officers and after he was outed for claiming and wearing medals he did not earn.. Hardly a reliable source."


To rebut Lionheart's scurrilous characterization of Col. Hackworth, I offer the following Internet extract:

In response to Hackworth's investigation of Admiral Boorda, CNN and the CBS evening news with Dan Rather questioned the accuracy of Hackworth's own military decorations.

In particular, the reports accused Hackworth of claiming a Ranger tab to which he was not entitled and an extra Distinguished Flying Cross on his website.

Hackworth threatened to sue CBS and requested a formal audit of his military records. In response to the military audit, the Executive Producer of CBS News sent a letter to Hackworth that stated:

"The Army's audit of its records has determined that the Army made an administrative error back in 1988, when it reissued your medals and awards."

"Along with numerous other decorations, the Army mistakenly issued you a Ranger Tab and two Oak Leaf Clusters for your Distinguished Flying Cross. The Army has thus verified what we reported as your explanation of the matter."

"As far as we are concerned, the Army audit makes clear that you did not at any time wear or claim any military honor not actually issued by the U.S. Army, based on its official records, including the service record you signed and dated."

"At the same time, CBS continues to believe that our reports did not state or imply that you knowingly wore or claimed decorations not issued by the U.S. Army and that any such inference drawn from the reports would be mistaken."

"Similarly, we do not believe our reports in any way equated your conduct with that of the late Admiral Boorda's."

"Indeed, as we believe we made clear in our reports, by all accounts you are a man who has shown extraordinary heroism in your service to our country, and has deservedly been awarded many of the nation's most coveted awards for valor."


Lionheart should be ashamed of himself for smearing a REAL war hero. As a Vietnam veteran who served honorably in Southeast Asia during two six-month combat support tours and was awarded the Air Medal in 1966, I am duty bound to send a letter of complaint to the AlterNet editorial staff.

The letter will ask that Lionheart be banned from AlterNet for continually violating its policy af not tolerating personal attacks against other users -- such as saying my military service is "suspect."

I will also follow up my letter with phone calls to AlterNet's headquarters in San Francisco.

Finally, there are many unflattering terms that describe someone like Lionheart, who would smear a deceased war hero without proof, but I won't use them here.

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Finally, a Western news article about what happened in Tskhinvali.
Posted by: mjabele on Aug 18, 2008 3:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ground zero in the Georgia-Russia war
Peter Finn, Washington Post
Monday, August 18, 2008

The windows were blown out of the old synagogue here, and the wooden bimah splintered and partially collapsed. Shattered glass covered the floor, and parts of the ornately painted walls were ripped off.

But the old building held, and it protected 40 people who took shelter in its spacious basement as the neighborhood above them was reduced to rubble.

"Three days we were here, without water, without bread," said Tiblova, 60. "We had 14 children with us."

"Unforgivable," said her husband, Georgi Bestaev. "It was inhuman to bomb us."

The war between Georgia and Russia was centered on this town of at most 10,000 people, and it cut a swath of destruction, severely damaging many homes and apartment buildings.

In one neighborhood, along Telman Street, house after crumpled house was a scorched shell, bricks piled high in basements exposed to the sunlight. The area is about 200 yards from destroyed separatist government buildings in central Tskhinvali, an acknowledged target of Georgian forces.

A school, a library and a kindergarten were blackened and pockmarked from small-arms fire, as were the houses around them.

At certain moments, in certain places, the smell of rotting corpses was in the air.

Here in Tskhinvali, there was no doubt that Georgia started the war with Russia and much bitterness about the rain of artillery and rockets that the government of President Mikhail Saakashvili used in its efforts to capture the city. The Georgian government said much of the destruction of Tskhinvali was caused by a Russian counteroffensive, but that argument carries no weight with the residents.

"Grad came and hit us," said Garik Gabayev, referring to the fearsome BM-21 multiple rocket system employed by Georgian forces. "Grad" is a word that has entered the vocabulary of this town, cited by one resident after another as they described what they experienced.

The scale of the destruction is undeniable; some streets summon iconic images of Stalingrad during World War II or Grozny, the capital of Chechnya, which was leveled in two wars between Russian and Chechen separatists.

But the number of dead remains in dispute. Mikhail Minsayev, the minister of interior in the separatist South Ossetian government, told reporters Saturday that as many as 2,100 people had been killed.

When challenged on that figure by reporters, who cited statements by medical workers and human rights groups that there was no evidence of such a high death toll, he said people quickly buried the dead in their yards or took the bodies to North Ossetia in Russia for burial.

Traveling to Tskhinvali from the Georgian city of Gori and out to the Roki Tunnel that connects with Russia, the revenge taken by some of the inhabitants of South Ossetia was visible in the Georgian fields set on fire and the blackened, abandoned homes in Georgian villages north of Tskhinvali. Two homes in those Georgian villages were ablaze Saturday night.

Russian military officials blamed the destruction on marauding South Ossetian militias and said they are attempting to restore order.

The headquarters of Russian peacekeepers in Tskhinvali was destroyed. The barracks where 500 soldiers slept took direct hits from tank fire. A destroyed Russian tank sits by the barracks wall.

Vladimir Ivanov, deputy commander of the Russian peacekeeping force that was stationed in Tskhinvali, said 15 Russian peacekeepers were killed during the war and many more were wounded.

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Last few lines of the article...
Posted by: mjabele on Aug 18, 2008 3:43 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Russian peacekeepers have been in South Ossetia since the early 1990s, when a cease-fire was declared after an earlier conflict. This breakaway province of Georgia has since had de facto independence from the central authorities in Tbilisi, the Georgian capital.

The war has poisoned people in Tskhinvali against any future connection with Georgia, although the province remains within Georgia's borders.

"Georgia is finished here; they are never coming back," Bestaev said. "We cannot live without Russia. We must become part of Russia, because we can't handle the problem independently."

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It's all about the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan crude oil pipeline!
Posted by: muktuk on Aug 18, 2008 9:20 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline is the chief factor in this Russian/Georgian conflict. Have you noticed the attention given this conflict by the United States?

Whether or not the IDF launches an air strike against Iran depends on the security of this pipeline. With the BTC pipeline secured, the neocons, who will not let Iran develop a nuclear capacity, will risk a temporary closure of Persian Gulf oil by the ensuing conflict between the USA and Iran.

Ironically, with the Russians pursuing their own oil interests in the Caucasus, the neocons may not risk striking Iran.

We shall see.

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Thank you - an Ossetian voice. I think you should re-post your "reply" as a "comment" downthread.
Posted by: Olga V. on Aug 19, 2008 8:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thomas,
I appreciated your comment, as it pointed out the events in Chechnya that so many are seeming to forget these days. Indeed, Russia has its own issues with hypocrisy.
However, I am outraged at this comment of yours: "Any recent comparison to what is going on in Georgia is unvalid as both breakaway regions have been effectively under the control of Russian "peacekeepers" for the past 15 years and there has been no genocide.

Furthermore, there has been surprisingly very little evidence of the so-called 2,000 civilian deaths that is oft repeated as justification for this invasion (http://tinyurl.com/5s4g5s). Where are the dead bodies? Unless you find me proof that the Georgians had been engaging in the same degree of genocide as the Serbs, the Kosovo argument is simply not valid."

It is true that the number of civilian deaths has been "unconfirmed" by western media, the death toll is, in fact, high. To answer your question about where those bodies are, I suggest you get on the next plane to Tskhinval, and take a look for yourself. I am South Ossetian. I HAVE family that is still in Tskhinval, who had to endure the bombardment. In my recent conversations with them, as well as the numbers of pictures posted by Ossetian websites (osradio.ru, cominf.org but I don't recommend you look at them as they are disturbing) those bodies do exist, and they are all over the streets. Well, they were. Many were buried over the last few days in people's yards and gardens because the cemetery is 1) inaccessible due to continuing sniper shootings, 2) destroyed, 3) lack of means i.e. caskets, manpower, cars.

In regards to your comment about genocide, I agree that the scale of the recent events is nowhere near those in Kosovo, the actions could be called nothing less. What would you call killing women, children, elderly, and crippled? What would you call tying people up and burning them in churches? (as reported by refugees in the area. Documentation does exist.) What do you call throwing bombs down people's basements to kill those who are hiding from the air strikes? I understand wars are senseless, but come on!

There are refugees who were fired upon as they were trying to escape. A bus full of wounded people was shot at as it was also trying to leave the city. The city hospital was bombed throughout the night of the attack. What other evidence does one need to categorize this mass killing as anything other than ethnic cleansing? And this isn't the firs time it has happened. Granted, it was not continuous for 15 years, thanks to Russia's involvement, but this is not an isolated incident (check historical texts, Mark was right about the 20's and 90's). I was in S.O. in 1992. I saw what happened. My family fled the country as refugees. If you need any proof that genocide exists in that region, feel free to contact me, or actually do some research and find out for yourself.
I realize that I have a strong bias in this matter, but I just want it to be known that though the facts may be exaggerated, the atrocities did happen, and are documented.

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