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The Christian Right's Slick Campaign to Make Abstinence Seem Trendy

By Vanessa Valenti, AlterNet. Posted August 28, 2008.


Conservatives finally learned that sheer moralizing doesn't keep teens from having sex. Now they have a creepy new tactic.

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Magazines. Fashion. Dating. Comedy. These are all large parts of contemporary teen culture. Who would have thought they could also become the latest weapons in conservatives' war against sexual autonomy?

But after a decade of the Bush administration pouring millions of taxpayer dollars into abstinence education programs, only to see them fail, that's exactly what's happening.

Study after study has shown that those schooled in abstinence rhetoric are just as sexually active as those who aren't, leaving the right wing with virtually no credibility on the subject. Now, conservatives have to be a little savvier if they want to lie about condoms' effectiveness against sexually transmitted infections, make bogus claims about a link between abortion and breast cancer, or manipulate teens into thinking that premarital sex is damaging to one's self-worth. That's why conservative ideologues have taken abstinence-only discourse outside of the classroom and are trying to woo students through a different strategy: by making abstinence the teen trend of the year.

To boost the no-sex-'til-marriage cool factor, conservatives are co-opting everything from teen magazines to fashion to comedy routines. But behind the trendy talk are the same shame-inducing tactics and medical misinformation that could potentially put teens' self-esteem, health and lives in danger.

Abstinence Chic

The 2008-2009 edition cover of J4G (Just 4 Girls/Just 4 Guys) magazine features a close-up of a smiling girl with a fashionable fur-collared sweater, surrounded by brightly colored headlines like "The Inside Scoop on Guys!" This is a pretty familiar image for teens -- no different than what you'd likely see on the cover of Seventeen or YM. But what a young reader may not know is that J4G's "Inside Scoops on Guys" is really a lesson on dressing modestly. The feature tells the young reader that "guys are visual, so when a girl is dressing to show off (wearing tight pants, low-cut shirts, etc.), it is hard for guys because they are stimulated by what they see."

The piece continues its urge to readers: "(S)tart respecting yourself and your guy friends by dressing modestly" -- equating "respect" with wearing more -- and placing all responsibility on girls to tame the wild beast of young men's sexual desires. The diatribe ends with a suggested clothing Web site so female readers can be fashionable and "still be modest."

A project of the Human Life Alliance, J4G is given out to middle and high school students across the country in an effort to present "the importance of abstinence until marriage." The HLA proudly describes the magazine as "cutting edge," contending on its Web site, "The colorful graphics will catch their attention, and the thought-provoking stories and facts on the inside will challenge them to change the way they think about sex outside of marriage."

The magazine's Q&A advice column features Dr. Mary Paquette, who says birth control causes not only weight gain, acne and depression, but abortion. The same goes for emergency contraception. A 16-year-old pregnant girl seeking advice from the doctor is given all of her options, but with an obvious slant: Dr. Paquette describes parenting and adoption as being "selfless," and abortion as "often thought of as a quick fix." She then contends that abortion is a "painful option" and continues: "Women have described it to me as the most awful thing they have ever been through. Women often block out the memory of it and regret having aborted their baby. Not only do these women have lives haunted by their abortion, but they also have an increased risk of infertility, miscarriage and premature babies. There is also a risk of breast cancer in women who have an abortion. Trying to hide your pregnancy with abortion only leaves you alone to cope with all the depression, pain and regret that follow."

Coming from a doctor, teens are likely too see this as a reliable and accurate source of information, despite the fact that all of these "risks" have been disproved by numerous studies, including the National Cancer Institute's findings in 2003 that abortion is not linked to breast cancer. The magazine fails to inform its readers that Paquette works at AALFA Family Clinic in Minnesota, which identifies itself as a pro-life Christian clinic. Not surprisingly, the clinic does not provide birth control or emergency contraception.

When you flip J4G to the opposite end of the magazine, you'll find "Just for Guys" -- the opposite end of the magazine's gendered spectrum. While the girls are fed messages about modesty and respect amid pink designs and trendy fashion tips, the boys are told to "be a man" -- the mantra juxtaposed against images of sports and pretty girls. One feature article titled "Why Wait?" comes with an epitomized image of teen masculinity: three buff, attractive young studs flexing their arms with dirt smeared on their faces and shirts. The article conveniently matches the picture: It's a story of the author's road from abstinence to a loving marriage, all the while using war as a metaphor for young men's struggle to want to have premarital sex, and urging them to "fight the 'dragon' of sexual temptation while their ladies watch in wonder and admiration."

The other pages of "Just for Guys" include many of the same scare tactics you find in "Just for Girls:" discussing the "dangers" of birth control, incorrectly linking abortion to health risks in both sexes, and downplaying the effectiveness of condoms.

What is dangerous about J4G is that it offers a layer of lies to the young and impressionable; not only are the magazine's staff and publisher manipulating teens by packaging fear and shame-inducing rhetoric in trendy teen wrapping, but that rhetoric is trumpeting medical inaccuracies and deceptive advertisements.

And J4G isn't the only teen zine like this reaching young people's hands. Revolve, a Biblezine made to look like Seventeen, tells girls who want to ask a boy out that it's not appropriate because, "God made guys to be the leaders. That means that they lead in relationships." Jen Magazine, a publication for Morman teen girls, is filled with tips on how to live and dress modestly -- for example, how to wear two pairs of jeans or a bodysuit under your clothes to make sure not a hint of skin is showing where it shouldn't be -- like your shoulders.

The Human Life Alliance has distributed over 150,000 copies of its third edition of J4G for 2008-2009, including a reprint. They've dispensed over 450,000 copies total of J4G since the release of its first edition in 2004, spreading the word widely across the nation to schools, church youth groups and pregnancy centers. Some even made it outside of the U.S. to nations where HIV rates are high, like Uganda and Cameroon -- nations that can't afford to be told that condoms don't work.

Abstinence Comedy

Self-labeled "educational comedian" Keith Deltano dangles a cinderblock over a young male student's genital area to show the ineffectiveness of condoms against HIV. This is one of the many acts Deltano features in his performances that he demonstrates to schools across the country. As the Funny Man of the abstinence-only movement, he's been featured in Christian conservative magazines and has won teaching awards of excellence from the Abstinence Clearinghouse, one of the largest abstinence-only organizations in the country. Deltano's show, "Abstinence is Cool," initially comes off as harmless; videos of his performance show students laughing as he jokes that just because dogs have sex doesn't make them "men," and he continues on to tell them what it means to be a man: "paying your bills, serving your country when called, paying your taxes, going to a job you don't like to support a family you love." But this is just the foreplay; shortly thereafter, you see Deltano strapping a male student to a table onstage and holding a cinderblock over him while yelling closely to his face (Deltano was formerly a military police officer) that there's a 10 to 20 percent chance that the cinderblock will fall on him. This is his metaphor of condoms' ineffectiveness against HIV.

While students laugh at his stunts half in shock, he tells them that laughing means that they get it -- and believe it. In one of his performances, he says: "I'm not laughing at these diseases, I'm laughing at the idea that you can have casual premarital sex with no negative consequences. And you know something, young people? That's what you're laughing at. You agree with me."

Pam Stenzel is another abstinence-only educator who uses comedy as way to engage her audience, and is perhaps even more dangerous than Deltano. While Stenzel also uses fear and shame tactics, she targets young girls specifically by telling them that birth control could kill them. Stenzel's special, "Sex Still Has a Price Tag," starts off charming and funny but quickly escalates to her chilling take on birth control: "Every high school I'm in, without exception, everywhere in this nation, every high school I'm in, I will have a girl write me, e-mail me or come right up to me and say this: 'Well, my mom found out I was having sex, and so she put me on the pill.' Or Depo, the shot, fill in the blank. What is that protecting that girl from? What does birth control protect you from? Pregnancy is what that protects you from. That drug, that hormone, that pill, that shot that this girl is taking has just made her 10 times more likely to contract a disease than if she were not taking that drug. This girl could end up sterile or dead. Thanks Mom. Glad you cared."

Stenzel also talks about how many young women she has counseled have suffered from bulimia, anorexia and suicide from having an abortion that "they couldn't take back." This is despite the fact that the American Psychological Association affirmed in 1989 that abortion "does not pose a psychological hazard for most women," and it doesn't recognize the existence of a "post-abortion traumatic stress syndrome," a popular term used by the anti-choice movement. But Stenzel still travels all over the world, spreading the message to young teens that birth control and abortion could potentially result in their death, all sandwiched in between funny stories and personal anecdotes.

Stenzel and Deltano use comedy as their guise, pushing scare and shame tactics to convince teens to mock the idea of having premarital sex -- that not only is sex not cool, but to make fun of the losers who "risk their lives" with it.

Sex and Social Control

The Sexuality Information and Education Council of the United States (SIECUS) reviewed Pam Stenzel's and Keith Deltano's work last year, deeming their work "fear-based" and "designed to control young people's sexual behavior by instilling in them feelings of dread, guilt and embarrassment."

SIECUS' Martha Kempner, who authored the reviews, contends that Deltano and Stenzel are not only deeming themselves the connoisseurs of what's cool, they are manipulating teens into thinking they're someone to trust. "What's so wrong is that they start this conversation by saying, 'I'm your friend'; they ingratiate themselves into the teen world, create a personal relationship with them and then give this information. ... They're giving blatant misinformation to teens in an attempt to control their behavior, and that's just wrong."

J4G essentially does the same thing; while the text is surrounded by smiling faces and catchy headlines, "the inside scoop" isn't giving teen girls a secret on dating, but a lecture on young women's responsibility -- and only young women's -- to keep "visually sensitive" males away from them by dressing modestly.

"These are old age messages the conservative movement has been putting out there," says Kempner. "It wasn't long ago that these were the same messages that were given to rape victims (who were blamed for what they wore). And that's pretty dangerous to still have out there."

Kempner says educators like themselves need to assist teens in developing a critical eye for misinformation in these messages they're given: "Much of what they're going to consume from the media is going to be inaccurate, so we need to help them figure that out, and the biases, whatever they are."

These "old age" messages Kempner talks of remind us that "abstinence-only" may not be the correct terminology for a movement in which abstinence is not the only lifestyle being pushed here. Rather, it's a broader form of regressive conservatism that longs for a country where abortion is illegal, same-sex relationships are virtually ignored (or demonized) and birth control doesn't exist. This is despite the fact that when these things were all a reality 50 years ago, nearly 9 out of 10 women were still having premarital sex, and thousands of women were dying from illegal abortions every year.

The "Abstinence Chic" approach is not only encouraging kids to refrain from sex until marriage, but is packaging an old-school conservatism of anti-abortion, anti-birth control and anti-sex ideologies into a new, shiny teen trend. What is being pitched as "new" and "in" is in fact the oldest -- and most dangerous -- of ideas.

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See more stories tagged with: abstinence, sex education, abstinence-only education, teens and sexuality

Vanessa Valenti is a New York-based freelance writer and an editor at Feministing.com.

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war on sex, war on drugs
Posted by: cordas on Aug 28, 2008 12:30 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Reading this article openned my eyes to something, I don't know if I have just been unobservant before but it sure seems that exactly the same tactics are being used in both fights with exactly the same effects.... Neither are working.

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» RE: war on sex, war on drugs Posted by: pure_genius
Knowledge is key
Posted by: pure_genius on Aug 28, 2008 1:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I spent most of my childhood in the foster care system. Most of that time was spent in the Bible Belt. I was nine years old when I first learned basic sex ed. I was in a juvenile detention center with kids who were 14 and 15. The educator used a condom and a cucumber.

I didn't have sex until I was 18 and I used protection. There are a multitude of reasons why I waited, but the primary one was not wanting to get a girl pregnant at that age.

I knew so many kids who were going to church every Sunday and being taught abstinence. They engaged in some of the most risky behavior.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Knowledge is key Posted by: Sissy
» RE: Knowledge is key Posted by: PumbyUmpkin
» As a former musician... Posted by: wolfgangmo
» RE: As a former musician... Posted by: ranchero42
False advertising
Posted by: LMNOP on Aug 28, 2008 1:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I nearly fell out of my chair when I read the lede, "Conservatives finally learned that moralizing doesn't keep teens from having sex."

No friggin' way! Next you'll be telling me that they realized that lying doesn't work either.

Then I read on and confirmed that that comment was just an inaccurate teaser to lure potential readers into the column, including people like me who simply refuse to believe that the Christian right realized that moralizing doesn't work and stopped doing it. No way.

Of course they haven't learned that lesson and never will. Never.

How does moralizing in teen zines and through lame Christian comedians not constitute moralizing just the same? And whatever would make anyone think that preaching "abstinence only" in this embarrassing and sure to fail wrapper wasn't moralizing or was an example of these Neanderthals learning?

I guess that we can look forward to another generation of butt sex from the little abstinence-only madonnas. LOL.

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todd
Posted by: toddlip on Aug 28, 2008 3:24 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Watch out for those evil Christians, trying to prevent kids from having sex.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: todd Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: todd Posted by: kwms
» RE: todd Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: todd Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: todd Posted by: LMNOP
» ssegallmd Posted by: emmas
» RE: todd..Pest Control Posted by: BigElectricCat
» RE: todd..Pest Control Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: todd Posted by: TagsNOLA
» RE: todd Posted by: Gisele
» RE: todd Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: todd Posted by: Turiye
» RE: todd Posted by: hms2004
» Hilarious.... Posted by: Fencerider
» RE: Hilarious.... Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Hilarious....it really is. Posted by: Fencerider
» RE: Hilarious....it really is. Posted by: BigElectricCat
» RE: Hilarious....it really is. Posted by: Fencerider
» RE: Hilarious....it really is. Posted by: BigElectricCat
» RE: todd Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: todd Posted by: NWCrow
» RE: todd Posted by: Romans1
» Huh? Posted by: NWCrow
» RE: todd Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: todd Posted by: wwittman
The UK Government's Advertising Strongly Encourages Teen Sex - Using a Condom
Posted by: opmoc on Aug 28, 2008 3:42 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Government advertising campaigns on commercial music radio targetting teenagers to use a condom are similar to their repetetitive drug awareness advertising.

I doubt if it has much if any effect on behaviour, but there is an argument that such repetetive advertising actually encourages such behaviour.

Kids don't want to miss out. They want to conform to the norm.

Whilst I have no objection to education and awareness, the continual indoctrination via radio advertising becomes extremely boring and is largely irrelevant cos most teenage kids spend most of their time on the internet.

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» Not "safe" - "safER" Posted by: truthlover
» RE: Not "safe" - "safER" Posted by: Intellect
What I find so amazing
Posted by: Sissy on Aug 28, 2008 3:55 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is for all the bellicose rants of the Christian Right against abortion, they also rail against birth control. The Bush dictatorship even refuses aide to poor county's that want to educate their people against having too many babies. Judges are sought who will overturn Roe vs. Wade, states are denied funds if they don't incorporate abstinence in their curriculums, but yet once those babies are born they can go to hell or to war, whichever comes first.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» why is it so amazing... Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: why is it so amazing... Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: why is it so amazing... Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: why is it so amazing... Posted by: Intellect
» RE: What I find so amazing Posted by: john mont
» RE: What I find so amazing Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: What I find so amazing Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: What I find so amazing Posted by: crashgrab
» They're sociopaths Posted by: LMNOP
» yikes... Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: They're sociopaths Posted by: Cathyblj
» Maybe - I'm not certain Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: They're sociopaths Posted by: BigElectricCat
» RE: They're sociopaths Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: They're sociopaths Posted by: BigElectricCat
» RE: They're sociopaths Posted by: LMNOP
» What happens in Vegas.. Posted by: BigElectricCat
A little of the subject but:
Posted by: Science1 on Aug 28, 2008 4:01 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Having just returned from Beijing for a 19 day trip for the Olympics and sightseeing, I made
one overall observation.

The Chinese people were very happy, patriotic
and had observably apparent strong family values.

Yes and they did this without organized religion.

My observation only confirmed my feeling that
religion is all about power and control and of course money. This article made a clear statement concerning how the "abstinence issue"
is really more about power and control over
all aspects of reproduction.

Personally I feel the Christian Right, is
a group more to be concerned about then the war, economy and illegal aliens.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: A little of the subject but: Posted by: annekarina
» RE: A little of the subject but: Posted by: austex_chris
» reality in China Posted by: zorro
Ugh... teen magazines...
Posted by: synx on Aug 28, 2008 4:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Every time I see teens reading "teen magazines" it makes me despair. The fact that they read those things of their own volition shows what a sickness they have in their mind. Colorful advertisements, consumption and guilt, glorifying shallowness, and stroking people's ego for getting all morally righteous. Forget the abstinence message, the only message these magazines deliver is that you shouldn't be content with your life, and that you're a good person if you force other people to feel that way too. Abstinence was never about avoiding sex; it's all about making teens feel bad and insecure, so they stay tied umbilically to their dearest taxpayer funded fundamentalist church, until they're too enmeshed in the insanity to ever escape. Pawns for the corporate elite to use to ruin our votes and our communities, and to destroy what few among us are able to see the snowballing corruption cracking our society apart at the foundations.

I fully support censoring what impressionable teens are allowed to experience, but let them play all the violent video games they want! Shower them with pornography, gay, splatter, whatever floats your boat! Just keep them away from those goddamn teen magazines, away from sitcoms and soap operas, cruel mind viruses of the most unctuous and penetrating, and for God sakes, don't let them watch all that commercial advertising!

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» RE: Ugh... teen magazines... Posted by: herronsmith
The nerds and dorks fight back
Posted by: rugger on Aug 28, 2008 4:11 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hey, I'm fat, ugly and unpopular and can't get laid.

Here's an idea, let's try to convince everyone else that that's cool.

brilliant strategy.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Cover up, Girls! It works in Iraq & Afganistan
Posted by: terradea42 on Aug 28, 2008 4:22 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you cannot see where this is leading, simply look at the Muslim countries. The same tactics and lies about sex are used to control the people. And it works. Women dress very modestly. And instead of guilt or shame, women who engage in sex before marriage get killed. Talk about an effective abstinence program! Go Religion!

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Some teens
Posted by: robchapman on Aug 28, 2008 4:31 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I recently showed Denzel Washington's Great Debaters to a group of young adolescents taking part in Upward Bound.

During a scene showing two of the Debaters in bed together in the morning post coitus, several students spontaneously called out, "Oh they are in TROUBLE."

There are adolescents who want to be good people. They are willing to uphold high standards of morality in all matters including sex.

Adolescents who are willing to commit themselves to high standards of sexual morality and behavior need and deserve our support.

Whatever problems we have politically with the Christian Right should not blind us to the importance of giving young people a period of time to develop themselves without the pressure and intrusion of sexually based relationships.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Some teens Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Some teens Posted by: BeckyD
» RE: Some teens Posted by: BreeMass
» SO Right on, Beck (as always) Posted by: Cathyblj
» RE: Some teens--BAD ANALYSIS Posted by: lexicon
» RE: Some teens--BAD ANALYSIS Posted by: robchapman
» RE: Some teens Posted by: wwittman
Rosta Ruck
Posted by: davescott on Aug 28, 2008 5:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bush and the GOP right have undoubtedly done real harm with this foolishness, like the rest of their foolishness. But I've gotta think this particular idiot message is one very tough sell.

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A Better Idea.
Posted by: fred_53_99 on Aug 28, 2008 5:10 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I got a better idea for these jerks. Why not start a movement to ban any sexual acts on tv and movies. Really boy cott all programs with sexual content. Think about it most of the sex in entainment is between persons not married. The kids won't wanna screw if they don't hear the media selling it 24/7/365. It's a dumb Idea? no more than expecting teens living in a sexually charged culture not want to have sex. Or just have em join a cult.

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» RE: A Better Idea. Posted by: everton9
» RE: A Better Idea. Posted by: trying.to.evolve
» RE: A Better Idea. Posted by: everton9
» really? Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: A Better Idea. Posted by: crashgrab
Mathew 25:41-45
Posted by: fred_53_99 on Aug 28, 2008 5:22 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The right wing does not read this passage"For when I was hungry ,you did not feed me. I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clother and you didi not clothe me. I was sick and in prison and you did not vist me.They will answer Lord when did we see you like this? He will reply whatever you didn't do for one of the least of these you did not do for me"

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» RE: Mathew 25:41-45 Posted by: john mont
» ?????? Posted by: Fencerider
» LOL Posted by: LMNOP
Hmmm...Abtinence Doesn't Protect Children from Pedophiles
Posted by: Elurby on Aug 28, 2008 5:47 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
#######
#######

Liberals' advancing liberalism sexually
molests babies and children.

How?: by removing the SACRED from human
sexuality and framing it as a recreational
sport.

Can abstinence protect babies and
children from the SICK results of
liberals' anything-goes SEXUAL REVOLU-
TION--particularly those babies and
children abused in child-porn?

Read Dr. Judith Reisman's report on the
stunning increase in sex crimes against
babies and children:

"Child-porn crimes have gone from a
rarity on federal court dockets to
a phenomenon, with prosecutions
jumping nationally from a scant 30
in 1995 to more than 2,100 last
year....Typically, they are catching
successful people - engineers,
businessmen, professors and lawyers
- who are under the false impression
that their habit is personal,
harmless and anonymous."

If abstinence doesn't work to corral
teen sex, then it won't work to corral
adults who like to diddle kids.

Go figure, you-tolerate-everything
liberals!

#######
#######

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» LOL (no text) Posted by: LMNOP
Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
WRONG WRONG WRONG!
Posted by: jrmart on Aug 28, 2008 5:49 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WHOA, wait just a friggin minute! I am as radical a left winger as there is but this article, well written and I presume well intended is just plain WRONG.

When 13 and 14 year old have sex, this is SEXUAL AUTONOMY???

I deplore the radical Christian right but I deplore just as much those that see everything, every idea and every action of them as "scary" and vicious and mean minded and short sighted and conspiratorial.

If you think unbridled sexual activity of early teens is their right, is part of their "autonomy" then your a real danger.

The use of "slick" ads and promotions is used successfully and widely throughout the marketing world. Why is it wrong to use it to try to reach those impressionable minds?
Do You advocate teen sex?

Just what is wrong with using modern advertising techniques to teach sexual responsibility.

I am shocked to find this attitude in a forum that is usually sane if not fair and balanced.

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» Puritans... Posted by: wolfgangmo
» RE: WRONG WRONG WRONG! Posted by: BeckyD
» RE: WRONG WRONG WRONG! Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: WRONG WRONG WRONG! Posted by: crashgrab
» No unbridled sex? Posted by: LMNOP
» LMAO!! Posted by: BreeMass
A little Something To know...
Posted by: Godfather89 on Aug 28, 2008 5:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a man with a spiritual path, as such, it is my belief that sex is meant for those who love each other. This love however, does not need marriage to prove this love and commitment. So in effect if the two love each other and are committed to each other and have sex than I see nothing wrong even if they are not married.

It is acting upon that lust on someone else that holds people down, not because you'll burn in hell when you die but because, it can lead to unwanted things like STD's, Unwanted Pregnancy, Relationship Problems (especially if you are with someone else). If your single and acting upon the lust after someone that you dont know from a hole in the wall than you put yourself at risk.

Plus their is scientific proof that people who love are far more happier than people who lust. Sexual Lust is more so a youth thing because as you get older the lust wheres down and most people come to realize that lust is not as powerful nor worth as much as love.

While I am not in a relationship right now, I have still abstained -despite the comprehensive sex ed- from sex, it is my belief that the religious right has no right to influence teens like this. It is also my belief that when I find the girl I love, I don't care if we are married or not, I will make love to her and I will not hold back nor be guilty for doing so.

So basically it needs some self-control.

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» a "spiritual path" Posted by: aislinnluv
» Ethnocentric Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: thnocentric Posted by: Dboy
your nuts
Posted by: dawnteach on Aug 28, 2008 5:55 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
well I guess it's ok for the world to be out there just fucking, especially our children???. maybe you want your child comming home knocked up or with something that will keep her from ever having children, or better yet something that will slowly end her or his life, what is with you people? anything good your against it? why? you guys always want to shove your beliefs down everyone throats, why should the conservitives be any different than you trying to get their word out. you do by this sleezy magazine. anything positive your ready to stomp on it, or is it cause it's a christian view? actually if you think about it it's a common sense view.i can't believe you would be against our children NOT HAVING SEX???huh. try looking at africa.that is what sex gets ya.. when you do it irrisponsibly with multipal partners. come on, you dems are the one distroying our country with all your warped morals and views and pushing it on everyone else.your motto!! if it feels good do it?? it's the rest of us fighting back. do you guys ever think of the long term effects of issues like this? we may not be able to stop teens from having sex but whats wrong with at least trying to instill some values and hopefully save them from a tragidy.

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» RE: your nuts Posted by: soowee
» sadly... Posted by: aislinnluv
» I rate this attempt a 4.5 Posted by: Curio
» RE: your nuts Posted by: maestra
» Let's try this again... Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: your nuts Posted by: songbird1268
» RE: your nuts Posted by: wwittman
Cultist Christo fundies and fanatic Islamo fundies sure make strange bedfellows these days.
Posted by: maxpayne on Aug 28, 2008 6:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The farther those two sides to their extremes, the closer to being identical they actually are. Whatever happened to love, tolerance, and understanding? Ok, the second one's a tricky one.

P.S.: If we'd defeat the rightwingers at the economic, environmental, and foreign-policy levels, getting through the social issues would automatically be taken care of. And if it's any consolation, Bush has plenty of lapdogs in the DLC/BlueDoggy wing of the Democratic Party to "assist" him.

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STOP PREACHING TO THE WRONG CROWD
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Aug 28, 2008 6:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why not disperse all these do-gooders to the various compounds in Utah, Colorado etc. where 14-15 yr. olds are forced to have sex and babies. They are not sexually promiscuious nor are they influenced by TV. They are systematically raped by older men who are trying to make God happy. This is a serious religious debate that is long overdue. Leave the rest of us and our children alone. Fact is, they're a bunchof hypocrites and wouldn't dare criticize these SOB's. Thanks, ANNA

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Burkas should be Federally mandated, no driving until age 30.
Posted by: grindermonkey on Aug 28, 2008 6:44 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, I know that this is harsh but youth require discipline (beating, thumbscrews and water boarding) in order to keep them faithful, sheep-like and in line with hard core Christianity. This was true in the Middle Ages and since we are on the verge of a New Republico-Christian Dark Age led by insane Messianic politicians nothing less will do. OUT WITH THE THONG, IN WITH THE BURKA. What about that endangered species line of chastity belts by the GAP? Now there is a product we can all believe in.

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» THONG EQUALS BURKA Posted by: Rosasharn
Dumbest article ever!
Posted by: southerndem on Aug 28, 2008 6:49 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You've got to be kidding me. It's creepy to suggest that being abstinent does not make you a loser? Suggesting teenagers wait until marriage to have sex is manipulative and evil? This article infuriated me: as a clinical psychologist, I can argue with anyone that a teenager is too young to be making such an important decision that can have life-altering consequences. I am for anything that encourages kids to wait to have sex; regardless of your political orientation, the fewer people you have sex with, the more special and meaningful it is. Call me old-fashioned, behind the times, whatever you want, but the cold hard fact is that kids in high school should not be having sex. The author of this piece should be ashamed of herself for attacking people who share my point of view, and Alternet should be ashamed of promoting it.

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» Dumbest article ever? Posted by: bornxeyed
» Umm..yeah... Posted by: BreeMass
» Dumbest response ever! Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: Dumbest article ever! Posted by: wwittman
» RE: Dumbest article ever! Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: Dumbest article ever! Posted by: LMNOP
The "Morality" of Abstinence Only education
Posted by: flagsmasher on Aug 28, 2008 6:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the theocrats instituted Abstinece Only education becasue they wanted to teach "morality" . . .

. . . and yet . . .

teens who recieved Abstience Only education are:

twice as likely to have oral sex and

4 times as likely to do anal! (and unprotected too)

This is more "moral" than allowing teens to have acurate information about birth control?

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876
Posted by: 876 on Aug 28, 2008 6:59 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is so creepy about it? If some religious lunatics can get American teenagers from their lives of promiscuous depravity it would be the only good thing they ever did. What is really creepy are grown people who promote sexuality in children. That’s what’s really creepy.

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» RE: Twice the Satisfaction Posted by: BigElectricCat
» Now THAT'S how it's done! Posted by: Curio
» Love it!! Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: 876 Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: BreeMass Posted by: 876
» RE: BreeMass Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: BreeMass Posted by: BigElectricCat
» RE: "Promiscuous depravity" Posted by: grindermonkey
» RE: 876 Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: 876 Posted by: AlineSE
876
Posted by: 876 on Aug 28, 2008 7:01 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Vanessa Valenti is creepy for promoting child sex.

She sounds like some sort of liberal pervert.

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» Not to mention... Posted by: BreeMass
» Trollometrics Posted by: LMNOP
» Freud, anyone? Posted by: AlineSE
the spirit versus the flesh
Posted by: vasumurti on Aug 28, 2008 7:06 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All religions teach sexual restraint: to be concerned with things of the spirit rather than the flesh.

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami writes in The Path of Perfection:

"Yoga does not mean going to some class, paying some money, engaging in gymnastics, and then returning home to drink, smoke, and engage in sex. Such yoga is practiced by societies of the cheaters and the cheated...If one tells you that you can indulge in sex as much as you like and at the same time become a yogi, he is cheating you. If some so-called guru tells you to give him money in exchange for some mantra and that you can go on and engage in all kinds of nonsense, he is just cheating you. Because we want something sublime and yet want it cheaply, we put ourselves in a position to be cheated...if we want perfection in yoga, we have to pay for it by abstaining from sex. Perfection in yoga is not something childish, and Bhagavad-gita instructs us that if we try to make yoga into something childish, we will be cheated. There are many cheaters awaiting us, waiting to take our money, giving us nothing, and then leaving."

The apostle Paul similarly taught his followers to bless their persecutors and not curse them (Romans 12:14), to care for their enemies by providing them with food and drink (12:20), and to pay their taxes and obey all earthly governments (13:1-7). He mentioned giving all his belongings to feed the hungry (I Corinthians 13:3), and taught giving to the person in need (Ephesians 4:23). He told his followers it was wrong to take their conflicts before non-Christian courts rather than before the saints. (I Corinthians 6:1)

Paul wrote, "it is good for a man not to touch a woman," i.e., it is best to be celibate, but because of prevailing immoralities, marriage is allowed. Divorce is allowed in the case of an unbeliever demanding separation. (I Corinthians 7)

Paul repeatedly attacked sexual immorality:

"This is God's will--your sanctification, that you keep yourselves from sexual immorality, that each of you learn how to take his own wife in purity and honor, not in lustful passion like the gentiles who have no knowledge of God." (I Thessalonians 4:3-5)

Paul told his followers not to associate with sexually immoral people (I Corinthians 5:9-12, 6:15,18). He condemned homosexuality (Romans 1:24-27) and incest (I Corinthians 5:1).

"Make no mistake," warned Paul, "no fornicator or idolater, none who are guilty either of adultery or of homosexual perversion, no thieves or grabbers or drunkards or slanderers or swindlers, will possess the kingdom of God." (I Corinthians 6:9-10 [NEB])

Paul condemned wickedness, immorality, depravity, greed, envy, murder, quarreling, deceit, malignity, gossip, slander, insolence, pride (Romans 1:29-30), drunkenness, carousing, debauchery, jealousy (Romans 13:13), sensuality, magic arts, animosities, bad temper, selfishness, dissensions, envy (Galatians 5:19-21; greediness (Ephesians 4:19; Colossians 3:5), foul speech, anger, clamor, abusive language, malice (Ephesians 4:29-32), dishonesty (Colossians 3:13), materialism (I Timothy 6:6-11), conceit, avarice, boasting and treachery. (II Timothy 3:2-4)

Paul told the gentiles to train themselves for godliness, to practice self-control and lead upright, godly lives (Galatians 5:23; I Timothy 4:7; II Timothy 1:7; Titus 2:11-12). He instructed them to ALWAYS pray constantly. (I Thessalonians 5:17)

Women should cover their heads while worshipping, and long hair on males is dishonorable. (I Corinthians 11:5-14) Christian women are to dress modestly and prudently, and are not to be adorned with braided hair, gold or pearls or expensive clothes. (I Tim. 2:9)

My problem isn't with Christians unable to follow Paul, but the hypocrisy of saying "I believe" and ignoring what their religion dictates.

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» RE: the spirit versus the flesh Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: the spirit versus the flesh Posted by: aki_no_kaze
» RELIGIOUS MIND POISON Posted by: atomic
Alarm misplaced
Posted by: Ambercat on Aug 28, 2008 7:11 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Teens who are already ignoring abstinence-only education will ignore these sorts of transparent ploys as well. If kids aren't listening to their teachers telling them to "wait," they aren't going to take seriously a magazine column because it's written by a doctor. In fact, teens being teens are liable to ignore their OWN doctors. The kids likely to accept these marketing tactics are the same kids who buy what they're taught in abstinence-only classes, and as we've seen, they're not effective.

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Taliban Tactics?
Posted by: Peschko on Aug 28, 2008 7:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am no longer shocked at the conservative tactics utlized to brainwash a society into believing their skewed world view. I have thought for a while now that the rigidity displayed looks alot like communist tactics and nazi tactics with the massive propaganda machine they have in place. This right here proves my point. The reason the women in the middle east - when you get right down to it - dress in the modest and covered way they do is to refrain from arousing desire in men. This is what they would have us do? God help us all if they win this election.

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» RE: American tactics? Posted by: 876
» RE: American tactics? Posted by: crashgrab
Two slightly interconnected issues
Posted by: PaulK on Aug 28, 2008 7:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Issue one is whether sex is good for 10 year olds. No it isn't. How about 20 year olds, they can't legally drink yet because drinking leads to sex. That's a lot harder. For that matter, how about 40 year olds? Why are we so privileged and not them?
Issue two is whether we should set the dumbest bunnies up to fail in life. Do we actually educate, or do we smugly say "Told you so, slut" outside of Planned Parenthood?

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» Issue one isn't an issue Posted by: Curio
Abstinence. Didn't work. Shame, Damn, didn't work.
Posted by: GuitarBill on Aug 28, 2008 7:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What's next? Chastity belts?

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X-POLYGAMIST WIFE in ARIZONA
Posted by: X-POLYGAMIST WIFE on Aug 28, 2008 7:50 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you control the women you control the world!

http://www.bankingonheaven.com

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» Sorry, incorrect. Try again. Posted by: GuitarBill
» RE: Sorry, incorrect. Try again. Posted by: aki_no_kaze
It is so hard for boys to be "visual"
Posted by: luzmejor on Aug 28, 2008 7:58 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I heard this nonsense back in the early 1960s and these creeps still haven't given up trying to blame girls for the sexual abuse perpetrated by males they trust.

I think the solution is quite clear.

We should move all these professional hand-wringers to Iraq, Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, where the girls will be assaulted and killed regularly and they won't need to worry their pointy heads so much about "tight" clothing because girls are already dressed in the Oriental version of hooded white supremacists.

That kind of "christian" could be a lot happier where they can just kill women because they are there and the men feel insufficiently admired by strangers.

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'Pro Birthers', using Taliban tactics
Posted by: Purple Girl on Aug 28, 2008 8:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
they claim the are trying to reduce unwanted pregnancies Right, thus ending the practice of abortion. At the very least they are trying to end the spread of STD's.Both Worthy Causes!
BUT, when you are unwilling to use all methods available to combat both these problems, you motives must be suspect.
so if you discourage Birth control of all forms, and ignore the natural drive, you are working to INCREASE Preganancies.Reason sex Drive kicks in at puberty, because as a species we are capable for reproduction (Survival & Reproduction, basic drives of ALL Living things!)
Abstinence is a great supporting program, if conducted correctly.
End Abortions..Support Education AND
Birth control.
Otherwise you are just cheapening the Human Labor Commodity for the Corps Beenfit and Proving 'God' should have never left our species in charge as Stewards.That means being able to manage yourselves first!Otherwise you are throwing away the 'sense God Gave You'!!!

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Only if they practice it amongst themselves
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Aug 28, 2008 8:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Christian Right has brought us more agony than enlightenment,a morally corrupt governancce and made themselves out to be better than all of us or any other Spiritual
Teaching.
Bright side...if they get their followers to be abstinate there won't be many of them around to fuck things up for the rest of us.
They believe the Anti-Christ will come and they are waiting for him. Abstinance might make that not so...or maybe they just need to look into the mirror to see him.

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these idiots
Posted by: hms2004 on Aug 28, 2008 8:37 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One of the best parts of being a teenager is that at no other point in time in your life you will be able or it will be acceptable for you to have sex with a teenager! It's a good thing that most teens don't buy into this crap.

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xtinez
Posted by: xtine on Aug 28, 2008 8:52 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just to keep things fair, if abstinence only sex education should not be taught in the schools because you don't want other people deciding what message your kids get about sex (a reasonable idea in my opinion), then to be fair, we cannot promote a curriculum that promotes contraception or is even neutral about premarital sex because then we are deciding what message the children of the Christian right should be getting about sex.

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» RE: xtinez Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: xtinez Posted by: 2821ajk
What ignorance
Posted by: Jbuuty on Aug 28, 2008 9:30 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What do you really know about Islam other than your prejudices and stereotypes?

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» RE: What ignorance Posted by: BreeMass
Boys as mindless sexual animals
Posted by: BlueTigress on Aug 28, 2008 9:50 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If that's the way they want to play it, then we should have legislation in place that requires all males to be registered and licensed, and not allowed out in public unless they're on a leash.

Further, ones that are vicious or a nuisance are to be put down quickly and humanely.

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alternative sex - sex alternatives
Posted by: maxsmart on Aug 28, 2008 9:52 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Listen to Joyce Elders, sometimes elders have good advice, you can have sex and not get pregnant and less sts's. There can be abstinence and sex too, the best of both worlds, pleasure, intimacy, healthy lust, everything you ever wanted!! Lets encourage a learners permit without fear and shame. Lets change the debate, let's shake up the inhibitions and liberate our affections.

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Ourageous policy
Posted by: ninaalt on Aug 28, 2008 10:00 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My question is, which are these schools, because if they are public schools, using our taxpayers dollars, this type of teaching should be regulated, and the voters in the district, who support the school, should approve. Moreover, the federal government must continue with a proper HIV/AIDS campaign that is serious, science-backed and sensible.
Lastly, the proponents of this absurd sex education must know that those kids that are not having sex yet are having lots of oral sex, which also presents dangers to physical and mental sex.
These "teachers" live in a bubble and their plans are dangerous.

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Women And Religion: Sexism In The Christian Tradition
Posted by: JerseyGuy on Aug 28, 2008 10:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A very good explanation of where this stuff came from originally can be found here:
http://www.ffrf.org/fttoday/1998/jan_feb98/walker.html

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» great article, thank you!! Posted by: goatini
GSong
Posted by: gsong on Aug 28, 2008 10:50 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How is this article's approach any different from the one it critiques? It seems to use the very scaremongering technique that it castigates the Christian right for using, e.g. "Now they have a creepy new tactic," What is being pitched as "new" and "in" is in fact the oldest -- and most dangerous -- of ideas." I was hoping it would move the conversation forward.

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» RE: GSong Posted by: DaBear
» RE: GSong Posted by: mercury613
The Virtual Elephant on this Comment Board
Posted by: Megnificent on Aug 28, 2008 10:52 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not everyone grows up and marries! *Shocking* I know. Not everyone can (LGBT youth) and not everyone necessarily wants to. For instance, I'm a 21 year old strait woman with a career. I am also a student at a very expensive university. I barely have time to date. I don't even know if I WANT to ever get married. Does that mean I spend my whole life without sex? God knows these people don't advocate masturbation. Some people die before they marry. Some people are asexual. Some people have long term relationships that are virtually sexless, and are happy in them. Some people wait until marriage, and then realize that they have no chemistry or they realize that the person they married wants different things sexually than they do. The point is, we need to learn how to allow people the freedom to develop their own unique sexuality that does not harm others (unless you're into BDSM).

I didn't grow up with ANY sex education- abstinence or otherwise. Everything I learned I virtually taught myself. I had a very positive first sexual experience that I initiated. I talk to friends all the time (girls and boys) who had TERRIBLE stories of losing their virginity. Kinda makes one want to major in sex therapy!

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» Good point! Posted by: BreeMass
The other weapon is the ABC Family channel
Posted by: DaBear on Aug 28, 2008 11:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To boost the no-sex-'til-marriage cool factor, conservatives are co-opting everything from teen magazines to fashion to comedy routines. But behind the trendy talk are the same shame-inducing tactics and medical misinformation that could potentially put teens' self-esteem, health and lives in danger.

Watch a few episodes of "Secret Life of the American Teenager" and the abstinence only bullshit is so thick I find myself in shock and disbelief. Aside from the shockingly horrible script (inexplicably "dropped out" plot points, dialogue smacking of 1st-year drama student work, overly simplistic story formation) and the caricatures of "adults", the "info" and thematic material in SLOTAT embodies in every way exactly what Valenti is exposing in the piece. We had to stop watching it, mainly because of it's seductive appeal to our tween daughter despite her awareness of the bullshit; she can now write a paper on the misinformation and disinformation the episodes foist on an audience but she isn't old enough yet to see the different between the "pretty main character" and the Xtian fundie agenda posing as a dramatic-comedy series (it's also arguable which the producers wanted, drama or comedy). It's damned scary sometimes.

Given ABC Family's lineup, I'm a little surprised Valenti didn't cite the series or the channel in the piece. Maybe those parts got cut by her editors (damned editors, always insisting that all readers have only short attention spans).

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I think we need to give kids a little more credit...
Posted by: tHetrIp on Aug 28, 2008 11:58 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
when I was in 6th grade, we were given free Spiderman comics. Suspicious, a few of us thumbed through them to find - in a matter of seconds, mind you - that we'd been given anti-drug propaganda that succeeded only in making Spiderman (not the drugs) look lame. Evan at 11 years old we knew if someone gives you something that ought not to be free, he is likely selling something else.
In junior high, we had the police anti-drug presentation and laughed when one cop mispronounced "shrooms" and again when he passed around a bag of weed that was of such obviously poor quality, none of us - even at 13 years old - would even consider smoking it. Mission accomplished!
We had some douchebag show the entire school a series of accident photos - dead bodies, brains, and all - while talking about the dangers of drunk driving, and claiming - ludicrously - not to be using scare tactics, merely trying to "educate" us. He was booed.
We had the abstinence presentation in high school, which left everyone in the room praying: "God, if you're up there, and you're merciful, please provide me a good job, so I don't wind up some ridiculously-dressed, under-sexed, 20-something dork, jumping around cracking weak jokes for an unimpressed bunch of high-schoolers for my paychecque!"
Kids generally aren't stupid. They know bullshit when they see it and, as long as we foster a healthy suspicion of authority figures, we likely needn't worry about the "hip" and "savvy" new propaganda being thrown their way. Let these people keep shoveling money down the rat hole - just make sure it's their money and not yours.

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Consequences
Posted by: Romans1 on Aug 28, 2008 11:59 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My daughter is hip, cool, and popular enough to have a wide variety of friends. She is a born-again Christian and passionately pro-life. She is waiting until marriage to have sex and she is happy and well adjusted.

She is also tired of picking up the pieces of her friends' shattered lives after they have made the decision to have sex before marriage. But she will continue to do so as long as she has to.

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» RE: Consequences Posted by: wwittman
» The point is... Posted by: Romans1
» RE: The point is... Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: Consequences Posted by: mercury613
» RE: Consequences Posted by: crashgrab
» RE: Consequences Posted by: Romans1
» RE: Consequences Posted by: BreeMass
» RE: Consequences Posted by: crashgrab
Psychoanalyze the religious freaks
Posted by: TheNamelessCity on Aug 28, 2008 12:10 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and try to find out why they are so obsessed with sex and sexuality. I suppose it's too much to expect them to be obsessed instead with world peace, feeding the poor, opposing warmongers and corporations, ending social injustices and updating their bronze age doctrines into something less hateful, conformist, authoritarian, and exclusionary. The millions these idiots spend on anti-gay and anti-sex advertising could be used for better projects.

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Revolt in 2100
Posted by: manderson on Aug 28, 2008 12:14 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Robert Heinlein foresaw this thing, in general, happening in 1952. He wrote a book about the United States being taken over around the turn of the century by a religious Theocracy, started by a "charismatic" preacher, which ruled (and had sex with whoever it chose to) for 100 years, until deposed from within. During the time it ruled, science came to a screeching halt, except that which was devoted to warfare, torture, and domination (sound kinda familiar?)

The religious "right" (I hate to compare ideology on a line nowadays, but it will serve as a noun for the purpose) is alloyed with Corporate power, and obedience to it. It is Capitalism and Religion bound together in a package that any old hard-line patriarchal authoritarian Stalinist or Maoist would see in a heartbeat.

what's next----the Bhurka, killing women who are raped? Christian genital mutilation? I wonder if it'll stop those Congressmen (and others, like Jimmy Swaggert) from soliciting sex and drugs in bus stop bathrooms and motels.

I guess you can't argue with "God", the bully---Jesus Christ Rambo. It saves those who follow him from actually THINKING about how fucking stupid they are.

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Complexities..
Posted by: BlueGorilla on Aug 28, 2008 12:35 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To a lefty male,with some feminist leanings ,there is at first glance,a modicum of sense in the advice to young girls,as reported in the article.
We are living in an age where "ultra-femininity" is heavily encouraged.The message sent out by teen mags to young women, is "be girly,or be left behind".
There are only a few "types" for young women to choose from today..and they all revolve around sexiness and girliness,at the expense of other attributes.
Where once feminism,offered a resistance to this mainstream construction of women's identity,such theories are increasingly marginalized,though not extinguished.
Some of the blame for this marginalization of more thoughtful feminism, can be attributed to the shallowness of the popular"post-feminism"which basically says that ,such acts as being a pole dancer, are empowering for women.
This ideological failure,has allowed room for the neo-cons, to come along,and offer an alternative to the "be sexy,or die trying" role.
The social environment has always commodified women,but now it is in overdrive.Showing as much ,of what little flesh they have,(gotta be skinny,or your no one,hey girls!?) is the norm in cities and towns throughout the west.
What is wrong with young women resisting that social pressure?if they so choose?In itself nothing.
The problem is though,that the neo-cons aren't setting out to support empowerment,they are merely replacing one set of controls,with another.The free market,so beloved of the neo-cons,has adverse effects,which the cons find a little too wild and uncontrolled.These right wingers,wish to control that sex drive,like all authoritarian groups set out to do.Though this time it is God's name,and is on many levels "anti-women."
As a largely heterosexual male,I am attracted to the female bodies on display ,but and here is the point for me..its for me,to control my desires,and no one else..and having male led movements ,controlling womens sexuality is dangerous.
Really it would be healthier, if society led by woman,were to offer a few decent alternatives to women,beyond JUST sexual objectification.
That isnt to deny womens sexuality,cos it would be a grim world without it (if your a straight guy,or a woman),its just that there has to be more to a person.
In my mind,this multi-dimensional personality,along with assertiveness and self awareness,makes a woman much more attractive,than if she is a victim of social forces,who just worries about hair,nails and make up all day.Change has to come from women themselves though.
The opposite view to this,the neo-con view,although an alternative to objectification, would lead to an endorsement, of a Taleban style, forced cover up of women,(its funny,how neo-cons and Taleban are sssooo similar in outlook,they should make friends again).

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You create what you defend against
Posted by: mercury613 on Aug 28, 2008 12:42 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These heads-in-the-sand religious crazies are creating their own abysmal reality. We are biologically programmed to want to have sex from the moment we hit puberty. The more sex is turned into the forbidden fruit, the more kids are going to want it. It's human nature, and no amount of "faith", praying, marketing, comedy or anything else is ever, ever going to change that.

That's not to say that we should encourage kids to have sex at an early age when they are not emotionally prepared for it, but the only thing that will work is giving kids all the information and all the options. Anything else virtually guarantees bad choices.

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Pre-marital is not the same as casual
Posted by: nen on Aug 28, 2008 1:34 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would like to add my personal thoughts on this matter if I may. I notice that the messages in the Christian propaganda featured here largely equate pre-marital sex with casual sex. I'd like to speak out against that idea. It's easy to assume, when you are a monogamous person, that everyone is monogamous because it's difficult to imagine a life other than the one you've experienced. However, polyamorous relationships are no less loving than monogamous ones. Love one feels for each individual in this world is different. This is why the love one has for one's wife is not the same as the love one has for one's daughter. It doesn't mean that you love either of them any LESS.

I started my relationship with the wonderful lady who is now my wife as a casual weekly or bi-weekly "play time" if you will. We are both trans and it was hard for us to make intimate relationships where we could be sure we could trust the other person with our bodies and hearts and respect us for the person we are. This sort of "playing around" I would call casual. It did become serious later but I'm speaking about this to make a distinction.

My wife and I have an open relationship. The rule: you can bring someone home as long as you share. We invited a good friend of ours to our bed for some fun. Now this bit of intimacy is NOT casual. Why not? Because we both love and trust this person and want to share something beautiful with them.

As such, not all extra-marital relations are casual or even wrong (ie: cheating). That's the point I'm making here.

I know some people reading this must be wrinkling their noses in disgust, but do consider a point before you dismiss my views as crazy. Consider, that in the Christian view, the world started out with Adam and Eve. God loved these two people equally. Now, if love were a finite thing, of limited quantity, we would all be in a great deal of trouble. There are many MANY more than just two people on this earth at the moment.

I would ask of all Christians reading this comment: do you believe that you have only a billionth of God's love? I don't care how big it is, that's a very tiny fraction. Consider also, that the Bible tells us to love as God loves. That means everyone equally. If God is love, then love is limitless and infinite. I am not Christian. I used to be and decided that it wasn't for me. But I enjoin you, please, use your own logic when telling others what to do with their hearts and bodies.

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In my perfect world ...
Posted by: realmuzik on Aug 28, 2008 3:24 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There would be no encroachment of advertising of any sort on public spaces because the advertising industry will be outlawed The real culprit here is that the ad industry is reaping the rewards of spreading lies. Gee ... what's new?

There is a growing movement of young people actually rising up and demanding realistic sex-ed courses. I applaud these brave young people for exercising their First Amendment right to stand up and speak out for their own welfare.

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yeah.. in "those countries"
Posted by: theallegro on Aug 28, 2008 4:13 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
yeah... could you imagine a woman leaving the house without a guardian in a majority Muslim country? certainly not the most populous Muslim country, Indonesia, which had a female PRESIDENT: Megawati Sukarnoputri... or Pakistan, another well-known Islamic Republic, having Benazir Bhutto serve multiple terms as Prime Minister. Get your facts straight. Saudi Arabia and, to a lesser extent, Iran, are not the definition of "the Muslim world". They are the exception rather than the rule... The Saudis' extreme interpretation of Islam (women can't even drive cars there - a situation unique to Saudi Arabia alone) happens to spread to the uneducated through their use of oil money to fund "religious schools"- but they must have missed the part of the Quran that states that Kingdoms are un-Islamic. Saudi Arabia is a big, big part of the problem that people blame on Islam in general - and most of their policies are solely designed to keep the wealth in the hands of the decadent royal family. Iran is in a similar situation, but women DO hold high positions in Iranian society - even if they are forced to "dress modestly". What a strange world we live in, where oil money can change the perception of an entire religion to the point that it actually starts to change the religion in certain practitioners' minds... Just remember - on 9/11/01 - even according to the official government story (inserted just so i don't have to hear conspiracy theories: whether they are true or not is irrelevant to my point), the majority of the terrorists were SAUDIS.

Islam does not equal Saudi Arabia, and even Arab culture does not equal Saudi culture. The Nejd (center of Saudi Arabia) has been populated by what we in the West would consider "backward tribes" since well before the foundation of Islam. Come on.

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EMS
Posted by: ems on Aug 28, 2008 4:33 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't think young women should be held responsible for "awakening the sexual beast" in young men.

I don't think we should look at men as God's designated relationship leaders (and I could point out Biblical passages to support this view from Genesis and from I Corinthians).

However, I don't think the "tactics" mentioned here are all that creepy. How are they really that different from all the other media young people (and old people) are showered with?

The point the author makes about young women going on the pill or Depo or "fill in the blank" and these methods not preventing STDs is true. Sure, it's a scare tactic to keep kids from having sex. But it's also true!

And of my friends from high school and college who did have abortions, I can safely say that three out of the four I knew about really did struggle very much emotionally after having an abortion. Why would we expect "most women" to have NO psychological impact from going through an abortion?

As far as the media stuff goes, I think the bottom line is we need to teach our children how to analyze, how to read between the lines of just about EVERYTHING they read, see or hear. No news source, no history book, no radio talk show, not even the Bible -- is without an agenda. At least somewhat of an agenda.

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At the risk of sounding like an old &^%*.....
Posted by: playitsam on Aug 28, 2008 4:33 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree that some of these tactics are creepy. The idea that girls shouldn't ask boys out because males need to lead, sounds reminds me of that old Dusty Springfield song "Wishin' and Hopin' as in "Wear your hair just for him, do the things he likes to do...." As someone who is 61 yrs old, that's the kind of nonsense we were imbued with as young girls. However, in all fairness, let's get real here. Abortion IS painful. It's not necessarily physically painful, but when a woman decides to end a pregnancy, she is doing something that is probably going to cause some psychological pain. Anyone who thinks that women just can go blithely on their way after an abortion or after making the difficult decision to give a baby up for adoption, doesn't understand that women really do have some built-in biological differences. I realize that's not considered politically correct, but it's true. Also, a little modesty and dressing appropriately wouldn't hurt a lot of people. I could never be a Mormon, but if you accept that or any other faith, modesty is part of the package. I don't know about all religions, but Christianity in all its forms as well as Judaism and certainly Muslims want both sexes to be modest in their dress. We're not expected to come to the office dressed in party clothes. School should be treated the same way. There is a risk in labeling any call for restraint or modesty on the part of both sexes a "war on sex." It sounds to me to be too much like the constant complaint we hear from the Christian right about a "War on Religious Faith" or the infamous "War On Christmas." These are simply cheap rallying cries that do nothing but elevate rhetoric on both sides. Young people really don't need to be sexually active while they are still teens. There's nothing wrong with abstinence. And, yes, condoms have been known to fail. Young people need to understand that too.

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getting dust on your gift
Posted by: aki_no_kaze on Aug 28, 2008 8:21 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I hear a lot from religious fanatics that "sex is a gift from god" (insert whatever "god" you like here).

now, I was recently married and we got some WONDERFUL gifts from our friends and family, some were decorative, most were practical (which was what we asked for). We use these practical gifts regularly, as we feel to do otherwise would be a great insult to those who gave them to us.

"Wow! thanks a microwave... let me put that back in the box and tuck it away in the closet so it doesn't get damaged."

sexuality is a gift like a microwave, it was meant to be used (that "go forth and multiply" thing), to purposefully shun the gift, never use it, even ignore that you even got it... well if someone did that to a gift I gave that was meant to be used, I would be pretty dang upset.

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The Ridiculous Right...........
Posted by: tap17x on Aug 28, 2008 9:27 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.........has clevery made a false connection between SEX and MORALITY as if sex were the same as violence. It's not and there's no connection but the populace if asked will say that premarital sex is immoral - except for the majority that's actually doing it. The RR must get their sex-morality association from that worst of all possible books, the Bible, which has caused more misery than almost anything else.

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Of all life's fears . . .
Posted by: Walks-in-Storms on Aug 29, 2008 6:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of all life's fears none has exceeded my fear of this society's ideologically sick attitudes toward sex.

This society and nation with its relentless imprisonment of the innocent (read that victims of false rape charges and everything the like) is a fearsome one, its blundering and bungling criminal justice system, its hideous prison system, its political correctness . . . and on, and on, and on.

But then what would you expect of a nation, all of whose related social systems are degraded by women? Anyone who wishes to see why the U.S. is the world's laughingstock where sex is concerned need only look to militant feminism.

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» RE: Of all life's fears . . . Posted by: mercury613
» RE: Of all life's fears . . . Posted by: crashgrab
you remind me of some dear friends
Posted by: mombot on Aug 29, 2008 11:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A married couple I used to know some years ago were like you and your wife. A very open relationship, and loved each other completely. Different strokes for different folks! What works for one couple won't for others, and if it hurts no one and is private, it's none of my or any else's business.

Rock on!

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Anything that keeps
Posted by: Jeanne on Aug 29, 2008 7:33 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the Christian right wing from breeding is a good thing.

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» RE: Excellent point... Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
» RE: Anything that keeps Posted by: jstepp590
If you can control...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Aug 30, 2008 8:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...one of the most powerful forces of nature, human sexuality, you can probably get them to believe and do almost anything.

This basic tenet has been know by the religious since the founding of the Catholic Church.

That means you can get them to even die for their Invisible Friends...like the Shrub did.

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Remind you of anything?
Posted by: Ms T on Aug 31, 2008 2:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These "new" tactics to control young urges are highly reminiscent of tactics used by the Taliban and other extreme Muslim factions. Women wind up being the ones punished for enticing the men, who can't be expected to control their urges when faced with least suggestion of otherness. Under the Taliban in Afghanistan, women were stoned for wearing nail polish! Sad.

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I'm sure that allah, the " one god" that these " christians" profess to hate , would agree with this
Posted by: cherylsass123 on Aug 31, 2008 3:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the girls are supposed to dress modestly, not ask the guys out, etc. blah blah. birth control and abortion lead to mental illness and breast cancer. what a bunch of horseshit they are trying to sell to the youths! funny that this was mentioned in NOW , Ms. magazine, many others as being what is taught in abstinence. and yes, I'm sure the future VP my sister's voting for with old grampa mc jerk- also agrees with this shit.
and so, my 87 year old mom was telling me about " those foreign women working at kohls in brookfield[ CT] and how they wear the scarves over their head. why do they have to dress that way?" she wanted to know.
I explained " because they have to remain faithful to allah and their moslem religion! a moslem woman once explained that they do this so that they will not tempt the men into sin by looking pretty!" sounds familiar???

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
What's Wrong with an Abstinence Campaign?
Posted by: Hrpufnstuff on Sep 2, 2008 7:12 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The entire premise of the article is strange. Is abstinence a bad thing to promote? Is promoting social causes wrong?

Personally, I don't see any reason why progressives should be against abstinence. It does no harm, and it can do good. Instead of complaining, progressives should come up with an abstinence-option within their own system. One gets the impression, however, that abstinence has become a knee-jerk issue: it must be bad if conservatives are for it.

If it's the propaganda side of the campaign that we find objectionable... well, what can we say about that? If promoting social causes is wrong, then progressives have no reason to exist.

Maybe it's the religious/conservative "style" of abstinence that gives offense. That is an easy thing to correct: offer a better alternative -- better than prudishness and better than moral indifference to the vulgarity of the lives of young people in this country.

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Is Mc Cain a Born-Again Adulterer ?
Posted by: Richmond on Sep 3, 2008 5:05 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am sick and tired of righteous Republicans who claim to believe The Bible is literally true from cover-to-cover , that there are no mistakes in it , and that every single word in it was directly inspired by God . If they really , really , really , and truly , truly ,truly , believed the actual teachings of Yehoshua The Mashiah ( Hebrew for Jesus The Christ ) regarding marriage and divorce , they would never have nominated John McCain for President . After returning from Vietnam , and discovering that his wife was no longer as attractive as she once was , he began having extra-marital affairs , and ended up dumping her for a woman eighteen years younger than himself ... Incidentally , his second wife was also a heiress to a fortune made by selling booze . ( I guess it was only born-again booze . ) . You can check this out on Wikipedia . If you look up divorce in the New Testament , you will discover that Yehosha stated that whoever divorces his wife and marries another , commits adultery . Some righteous Republicans quote only those parts of Scripture that fit their political purposes . " Hypocrisy of hypocrisies , hypocrisy of hypocrisies ; all is hypocrisy and a striving after the dollar ! " Rich Parker

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OK
Posted by: jstepp590 on Sep 4, 2008 6:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I truly do not care if the conservatives want to make abstinance "trendy" or advertise it to move our society closer to that ideal through persuasion. What I have a problem with is when they try to use the law and power of the government to shove those views down the throats of people who do not want it.

Besides, good luck! It's not immorality they are fighting but biology. The bible says "be fruitful and multiply". Just exactly how did they expect that was going to happen anyway! LOL

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