COMMENTS: 192
The Delusion Revolution: We're on the Road to Extinction and in Denial
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"The old future's gone," John Gorka sings. "We can't get to there from here."
That insight from Gorka, one of my favorite singer/songwriters chronicling the complexity of our times, deserves serious reflection. Tonight I want to argue that the way in which we humans have long imagined the future must be rethought, as the scope and depth of the cascading crises we face become painfully clearer day by day.
Put simply: We're in trouble, on all fronts, and the trouble is wider and deeper than most of us have been willing to acknowledge. We should struggle to build a road on which we can walk through those troubles -- if such a road is possible -- but I doubt it's going to look like any path we had previously envisioned, nor is it likely to lead anywhere close to where most of us thought we were going.
Whatever our individual conception of the future, we all should re-evaluate the assumptions on which those conceptions have been based. This is a moment in which we should abandon any political certainties to which we may want to cling. Given humans' failure to predict the place we find ourselves today, I don't think that's such a radical statement. As we stand at the edge of the end of the ability of the ecosystem in which we live to sustain human life as we know it, what kind of hubris would it take to make claims that we can know the future?
It takes the hubris of folks such as biologist Richard Dawkins, who once wrote that "our brains ... are big enough to see into the future and plot long-term consequences." Such a statement is a reminder that human egos are typically larger than brains, which emphasizes the dramatic need for a drastic humility.
I read that essay by Dawkins after hearing the sentence quoted by Wes Jackson, an important contemporary scientist and philosopher working at the Land Institute. Jackson's work has most helped me recognize an obvious and important truth that is too often ignored: For all our cleverness, we human beings are far more ignorant than knowledgeable. Human accomplishments -- skyscrapers, the Internet, the mapping of the human genome -- seduce us into believing the illusion that we can control a world that is complex beyond our ability to understand. Jackson suggests that we would be wise to recognize this and commit to "an ignorance-based worldview" that would anchor us in the intellectual humility we will need if we are to survive the often toxic effects of our own cleverness.
Let's review a few of the clever political and theological claims made about the future. Are there any folks here who accept the neoliberal claim that the triumph of so-called "free market" capitalism in electoral democracies is the "end of history" and that there is left for us only tweaking that system to solve any remaining problems? Would anyone like to defend the idea that "scientific socialism" not only explains history but can lay out before us the blueprint for a glorious future? Would someone like to offer an explanation of how the pending return of the messiah is going to secure for believers first-class tickets to the New Jerusalem?
To reject these desperate attempts to secure the future is not to suggest there is no value in any aspect of these schools of thought, nor is my argument that there's nothing possible for us to know or that the knowledge shouldn't guide our action. Instead, I simply want to emphasize the limits of human intelligence and suggest that we be realistic. By realistic, all I mean is that we should avoid the instinct to make plans based on the world we wish existed and instead pay attention to the world that exists. Such realistic thinking demands that we get radical.
Realistically Radical
Imagine that you are riding comfortably on a sleek train. You look out the window and see that not too far ahead the tracks end abruptly and that the train will derail if it continues moving ahead. You suggest that the train stop immediately and that the passengers go forward on foot. This will require a major shift in everyone's way of traveling, of course, but it appears to you to be the only realistic option; to continue barreling forward is to court catastrophic consequences. But when you propose this course of action, others who have grown comfortable riding on the train say, "Well, we like the train, and arguing that we should get off is not realistic."
In the contemporary United States, we are trapped in a similar delusion. We are told that it is "realistic" to capitulate to the absurd idea that the systems in which we live are the only systems possible or acceptable because some people like them and wish them to continue. But what if our current level of First World consumption is exhausting the ecological basis for life? Too bad -- the only "realistic" options are those that take that lifestyle as non-negotiable. What if real democracy is not possible in a nation-state with 300 million people? Too bad -- the only "realistic" options are those that take this way of organizing a polity as immutable. What if the hierarchies on which our lives are based are producing extreme material deprivation for the oppressed and a kind of dull misery among the privileged? Too bad -- the only "realistic" options are those that accept hierarchy as inevitable.
Let me offer a different view of reality: (1) We live in a system that, taken as a whole, is unsustainable, not only over the long haul but in the near term, and (2) unsustainable systems can't be sustained.
How's that for a profound theoretical insight? Unsustainable systems can't be sustained. It's hard to argue with that; the important question is whether or not we live in a system that is truly unsustainable. There's no way to prove definitively such a sweeping statement, but look around at what we've built and ask yourself whether you really believe this world can go forward indefinitely, or even for more than a few decades? Take a minute to ponder the end of the era of cheap fossil energy, the lack of viable large-scale replacements for that energy, and the ecological consequences of burning what remains of it. Consider the indicators of the health of the planet -- groundwater contamination, topsoil loss, levels of toxicity. Factor in the widening inequality in the world, the intensity of the violence, and the desperation that so many feel at every level of society.
Based on what you know about these trends, do you think this is a sustainable system? When you take a moment to let all this wash over you, does it feel to you that this is a sustainable system? If you were to let go of your attachment to this world, is there any way to imagine that this is a sustainable system? Consider all the ways you have to understand the world: Is there anything in your field of perception that tells you that we're on the right track?
To be radically realistic in the face of all this is to recognize the failure of basic systems and to abandon the notion that all we need do is recalibrate the institutions that structure our lives today. The old future -- the way we thought things would work out -- truly is gone. The nation-state and capitalism are at the core of this unsustainable system, giving rise to the high-energy/mass-consumption configuration of privileged societies that has left us saddled with what James Howard Kunstler calls "a living arrangement with no future." The future we have been dreaming of was based on a dream, not on reality. Most of the world that doesn't live with our privilege has no choice but to face this reality. It's time for us to come to terms with it.
The Revolutions of the Past
To think about a new future, we need to understand the present. To do that, I want to suggest a way of thinking about the past that highlights the three major revolutions in human history -- the agricultural, industrial and delusional revolutions.
The agricultural revolution started about 10,000 years ago when a gathering-hunting species discovered how to cultivate plants for food. Two crucial things resulted from that, one ecological and one political. Ecologically, the invention of agriculture kicked off an intensive human assault on natural systems. By that I don't mean that gathering-hunting humans never did damage to a local ecosystem, but only that the large-scale destruction we cope with today has its origins in agriculture, in the way humans have exhausted the energy-rich carbon of the soil, what Jackson would call the first step in the entrenchment of an extractive economy. Human agricultural practices vary from place to place but have never been sustainable over the long term. Politically, the ability to stockpile food made possible concentrations of power and resulting hierarchies that were foreign to gathering-hunting societies. Again, this is not to say that humans were not capable of doing bad things to each other prior to agriculture, but only that what we understand as large-scale institutionalized oppression has its roots in agriculture. We need not romanticize pre-agricultural life to recognize the ways in which agriculture made possible dramatically different levels of unsustainability and injustice.
The industrial revolution that began in the last half of the 18th century in Great Britain intensified the magnitude of the human assault on ecosystems and on each other. Unleashing the concentrated energy of coal, oil and natural gas to run a machine-based world has produced unparalleled material comfort for some. Whatever one thinks of the effect of such comforts on human psychology (and, in my view, the effect has been mixed), the processes that produce the comfort are destroying the capacity of the ecosystem to sustain human life as we know it into the future, and in the present those comforts are not distributed in a fashion that is consistent with any meaningful conception of justice. In short, the way we live is in direct conflict with common sense and the ethical principles on which we claim to base our lives. How is that possible?
The delusional revolution is my term for the development of sophisticated propaganda techniques in the 20th century (especially a highly emotive, image-based advertising system) that have produced in the bulk of the population (especially in First World societies) a distinctly delusional state of being. Even those of us who try to resist it often can't help but be drawn into parts of the delusion. As a culture, we collectively end up acting as if unsustainable systems can be sustained because we want them to be. Much of the culture's storytelling -- particularly through the dominant storytelling institution, the mass media -- remains committed to maintaining this delusional state. In such a culture, it becomes hard to extract oneself from that story.
So, in summary: The agricultural revolution set us on a road to destruction. The industrial revolution ramped up our speed. The delusional revolution has prevented us from coming to terms with the reality of where we are and where we are heading. That's the bad news. The worse news is that there's still overwhelming resistance in the dominant culture to acknowledging that these kinds of discussions are necessary. This should not be surprising because, to quote Wes Jackson, we are living as "a species out of context." Jackson likes to remind audiences that the modern human -- animals like us, with our brain capacity -- have been on the planet about 200,000 years, which means these revolutions constitute only about 5 percent of human history. We are living today trapped by systems in which we did not evolve as a species over the long term and to which we are still struggling to adapt in the short term.
Realistically, we need to get on a new road if we want there to be a future. The old future, the road we imagined we could travel, is gone -- it is part of the delusion. Unless one accepts an irrational technological fundamentalism (the idea that we will always be able to find high-energy/advanced-technology fixes for problems), there are no easy solutions to these ecological and human problems. The solutions, if there are to be any, will come through a significant shift in how we live and a dramatic downscaling of the level at which we live. I say "if" because there is no guarantee that there are solutions. History does not owe us a chance to correct our mistakes just because we may want such a chance.
I think this argues for a joyful embrace of the truly awful place we find ourselves. That may seem counterintuitive, perhaps even a bit psychotic. Invoking joy in response to awful circumstances? For me, this is simply to recognize who I am and where I live. I am part of that species out of context, saddled with the mistakes of human history and no small number of my own tragic errors, but still alive in the world. I am aware of my limits but eager to test them. I try to retain an intellectual humility, the awareness that I may be wrong, while knowing I must act in the world even though I can't be certain. Whatever the case and whatever is possible, I want to be as fully alive as possible, which means struggling joyfully as part of movements that search for the road to a more just and sustainable world.
In this quest, I am often tired and afraid. To borrow a phrase from my friend Jim Koplin, I live daily with "a profound sense of grief." And yet every day that I can remember in recent years -- in the period during which I have come to this analysis -- I have experienced some kind of joy. Often that joy comes with the awareness that I live in a creation that I can never comprehend, that the complexity of the world dwarfs me. That does not lead me to fear my insignificance, but sends me off in an endlessly fascinating search for the significant.
To put it in a bumper-sticker phrase for contemporary pop culture, "The world sucks/it's great to be alive."
About These Crises
I have been talking about multiple crises without naming them in detail. As I have been speaking, I suspect you all have been cataloging them for yourself. For me, they are political (the absence of meaningful democracy in large-scale political units such as the modern nation-state), economic (the brutal inequalities that exist internal to all capitalist systems and between countries in a world dominated by that predatory capitalism), and ecological (the unsustainable nature of our systems and the lifestyles that arise from them). Beyond that, I am most disturbed by a cultural and spiritual crisis, a condition that goes to the core of how we understand what it means to be human.
For me, an understanding of this crisis is rooted in my feminist work on the contemporary pornography industry. Shaped by patriarchy, white supremacy and that predatory corporate-capitalism, pornography provides a disturbing mirror on our collective soul. We live in a world in which large numbers of people (mostly men) derive sexual pleasure from images of cruelty toward and the degradation of women. A smaller number of people (again, mostly men) profit from this industry. And except for a few people rooted in feminism and other radical philosophies on the margins, there is no significant progressive critique of it in contemporary society. Pornography is a place where we can see what the death of empathy looks like; it offers a picture of a world bereft of the fundamental values of compassion and solidarity; it provides a narrative of a people with no sense of shared humanity. Many aspects of the modern world -- this mass-mediated, mass-marketed, mass-medicated world -- can easily strip us of our humanity in ways that slowly leave us incapable of responding to these crises. Along with fretting about the other crises, I worry about that.
Add all this up and it's pretty clear: We're in trouble. Based on my political activism and my general sense of the state of the world, I have come to the following conclusions about political and cultural change in my society:
- It's almost certain that no significant political change will happen in the coming year in the United States because the culture is not ready to face these questions. That suggests this is a time not to propose all-encompassing solutions but to sharpen our analysis in ongoing conversation about these crises. As activists we should continue to act, but there also is a time and place to analyze.
- It's probable that no mass movements will emerge in the next few years in the United States that will force leaders and institutions to face these questions. Many believe that until conditions in the First World get dramatically worse, most people will be stuck in the inertia created by privilege. That suggests that this is a time to expand our connections with like-minded people and create small-scale institutions and networks that can react quickly when political conditions change.
- It's plausible that the systems in place cannot be changed peacefully and that forces set in motion by patriarchy, white supremacy, nationalism and capitalism cannot be reversed without serious ruptures. That suggests that as we plan political strategies for the best-case scenarios, we not forget to prepare ourselves for something much worse.
- Finally, it's worth considering the possibility that our species -- the human with the big brain -- is an evolutionary dead end. I say that not to be depressing but, again, to be realistic. If that's the case, it doesn't mean we should give up. No matter how much time we humans have left on the planet, we can do what is possible to make that time meaningful.
Globalized Tribal Animals
I want to end by celebrating human beings. That may sound odd, given the rather grim nature of my remarks. But I think there's a way to put all this in a perspective that is heartening. I return to Wes Jackson, who doesn't shy away from naming the problems we face and holding humans accountable for our mistakes, individual and collective. But Jackson also often says we also should go easy on ourselves, precisely because we are a species out of context, facing a unique challenge. He reminds us that we are the first species that will have to self-consciously impose limits on ourselves if we are to survive. This is no small task, and we are bound to fail often. I believe that our failures will be easier to accept and overcome if we recognize:
- We are animals. For all our considerable rational capacities, we are driven by forces that cannot be fully understood rationally and cannot be completely controlled.
- We are tribal animals. Whatever kind of political unit we live in, our evolutionary history is in tribes and we are designed to live in relatively small groups, some would say of no more than 150 persons.
- We are tribal animals living in a global world. The consequences of the past 10,000 years of human history have left us dealing with human problems on a global scale, and we can't retreat to gathering-hunting groups of 150 or smaller. Even if our future is going to return us to life at a more local level, as many think it will, at the moment we have a moral obligation to deal with injustice and unsustainability on a global level. That's especially true for those of us living in imperial societies that over the past 500 years have extracted considerable wealth from others around the world.
What does this mean in practice? I think we should proceed along two basic tracks. First, we should commit some of our energy to movements that focus on the question of justice in this world, especially those of us with the privilege that is rooted in that injustice. As a middle-class American white man, I can see plenty of places to continue working, in movements dedicated to ending patriarchy, white supremacy, capitalism, economic domination by the First World, and U.S. wars of aggression.
I also think there is important work to be done in experiments to prepare for what will come in this new future we can't yet describe in detail. Whatever the limits of our predictive capacity, we can be pretty sure we will need ways of organizing ourselves to help us live in a world with less energy and fewer material goods. We have to all develop the skills needed for that world (such as gardening with fewer inputs, food preparation and storage, and basic tinkering), and we will need to recover a deep sense of community that has disappeared from many of our lives. This means abandoning a sense of ourselves as consumption machines, which the contemporary culture promotes, and deepening our notions of what it means to be humans in search of meaning. We have to learn to tell different stories about our sense of self, our connection to others, and our place in nature. The stories we tell will matter, as will the skills we learn.
In my own life, I continue to work on those questions of justice in existing movements, but I have shifted a considerable amount of time to helping build local networks that can create a place for those experiments. Different people will move toward different efforts depending on talents and temperaments; we should all follow our hearts and minds to apply ourselves where it makes sense, given who we are and where we live. After starting with a warning about arrogance, I'm not about to suggest I know best what work people should do.
I am, however, reasonably confident that if we are to make a decent future for ourselves and our children, we have a lot of work to do. John Gorka also expresses that in his song: "The old future's dead and gone/Never to return/There's a new way through the hills ahead/This one we'll have to earn/This one we'll have to earn."
We should not be afraid to face the death of the old future, nor should we be afraid to try to earn a new one. It is the work of all the ages, and it is our work today, more than ever. It is the work that allows one to live, joyously, while in a profound state of grief.
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Posted by: ankhet on Aug 15, 2008 1:00 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How to live within this "creation" is our task, and we've totally screwed it up.
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» RE: Amen...
Posted by: weathered
» RE: Amen...
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: Amen...
Posted by: blondesprite
» RE: Amen... Traditional Culture is The Antitheses of Cultural Evolution
Posted by: VoteHope
» Another timely offering from a "wilderness voice"...
Posted by: SevenStarHand
» Growing Up in the Universe
Posted by: Richard House
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Posted by: mmckinl on Aug 15, 2008 2:15 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As we have seen the it has been the role of finance that has shaped the 20th century. The guilded age brought about WWI as the Great European powers spent and borrowed their way into bankruptcy that could only be remedied with the invention of enemies. WWII, the same as the ravages of the Great Depression lead Germany and Japan and later Italy in search of territory to conquer and loot.
It is now finance that intervenes once again. Our coming wars will be efforts to blind us to the fact that we have been bankrupted once again by Wall Street and that no amount of destruction and bloodshed will deter those that control the monopoly of money creation through fractional reserve banking to preserve their pernicious privilege.
It has been through the debt and debenture of neoliberal banking and disaster capitalism that our fortunes have been sanctioned but these instruments of pillage are now turned on our selves. The very framework of the economy, the production and infrastructure are being neglected, torn apart and dismembered to fuel the fires of consumption of the debt created by fractional reserve banking.
The very life blood of our economy, our money, is carrying the disease of our destruction, the financial cancer of the geometric growth of debt caused by fractional reserve banking.
We need money based on the full faith and credit of the people, not borrowed money with interest that enslaves our environment to so called wealth creation and our futures to debt servitude.
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» RE: Agricultural, Industrial, ... CAPITALIST ... Delusional ...
Posted by: editnetwork
» Better Is Not Always More Spending
Posted by: edgar1
» Why did you ignore the one category of spending that has grown more than any other under Bush?
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: Better Is Not Always More Spending
Posted by: Spot
» 1914 and all that
Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» Disassociated from Reality ..
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: 1914 and all that ... Fractional Reserve Banking is a problem ...
Posted by: mmckinl
» Let the money supply stagnate all it wants
Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» RE: Let the money supply stagnate all it wants ... the problem is ...
Posted by: mmckinl
» RE: Let the money supply stagnate all it wants ... the problem is ...
Posted by: editnetwork
» Mother Jones weighs in . . .
Posted by: editnetwork
» Money is a great deception and delusion
Posted by: SevenStarHand
Comments are closed-
Posted by: andabottleof_rum on Aug 15, 2008 2:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a good article. The anthropological overview of society rapidly morphing upon the advent of agriculture is very valuable. This transition is not nearly discussed enough outside of specialized academic circles; it certainly doesn't play the role in popular leftist political discourse that it should.
Understanding that social inequality and unsustainability grows out of productive activities, which allow self-aggrandizers to concentrate wealth and power, is one of the essential insights for a serious discussion of poverty or environmental degradation. It follows from this insight that inequality and unsustainability are inevitable in a productive economy, as opposed to a more passive foraging economy, which would seem to negate the value of the feel-good simple fixes so often proposed by the political left as well as the right. Hence, perhaps, the general omission of the agricultural and industrial revolutions from popular political debate.
I do have a small quibble with the PC ranking of systems of inequality implied in the author's writing. He invariable lists the problems resulting from the agricultural, industrial, and propaganda revolutions in the order of "patriarch, race . . ." Thus it would seem patriarchy is primary among the world's social problems, race is secondary, and class and empire and war are tertiary, quaternary etc. I'd disagree and argue that it's difficult to say which problems are worst, why, and in what situations.
For example, it could be argued that class is often at least as big of a problem as gender for poor women, as well as poor men, as gender is for wealthy women. Imperialism and war can be as big of problems for rich men in war zones as class is for poor men in relatively stable societies.
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» The current peaking of complexity, and the impending descent to simpler and simpler forms
Posted by: Lloyd Drako
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Posted by: DrGeneNelson on Aug 15, 2008 3:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The root cause is soaring populations, far in excess of the carrying capacity of the local economy.
We are the only species that can develop an accurate model of the future. http://www.Census.gov shows the current world population at 6.72 billion on 15 August 2008. The world population has doubled in about 40 years. Much of that population growth is the consequence of inexpensive petroleum.
Eventually, the world population will be forced to match available resources. Absent voluntary (or coerced) population control, the means include war, famine, and disease. The latter three are painful.
While there were futurists and environmentalists who raised concerns about U.S. overpopulation in the 1970s, they were shouted down by special interests who understood the concept "overpopulation is profitable." Labor gluts drive down middle-class wages. Population gluts drive up the price of the necessaries of life. Usually, the economic beneficiaries of overpopulation are members of the economic elite.
I remember a bumper sticker from about 40 years ago, "condoms, not condominiums." Will our species understand these concepts before it is too late?
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» RE: Overpopulation is Profitable
Posted by: BlammDaddy
» RE: Overpopulation is Profitable
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: "Mostly subconscious" (LastChance's comment)
Posted by: editnetwork
» RE: Overpopulation is Profitable
Posted by: Bambi
» So, America's House of Cards is collapsing...
Posted by: Cathyc
» Jensen's article = REAL BAD, because it does not mention overpopulation
Posted by: stilldreaming
» RE: Overpopulation is Profitable
Posted by: luzyrea
» Root Cause
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
Comments are closed-
Posted by: andabottleof_rum on Aug 15, 2008 3:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a good article. The anthropological overview of society rapidly morphing upon the advent of agriculture is very valuable. This transition is not nearly discussed enough outside of specialized academic circles; it certainly doesn't play the role in popular leftist political discourse that it should.
Understanding that social inequality and unsustainability grow out of productive activities, which allow self-aggrandizers to concentrate surplus resources and therefore power, is one of the essential insights for a serious discussion of poverty or environmental degradation. It follows from this insight that inequality and unsustainability are inevitable in a productive economy, as opposed to a more passive foraging economy, which would seem to negate the value of the feel-good simple fixes so often proposed by the political left as well as the right. Hence, perhaps, the general omission of the agricultural and industrial revolutions from popular political debate.
I do have a small quibble with the PC ranking of systems of inequality that is implied in the author's writing. He invariably lists the problems resulting from the agricultural, industrial, and propaganda revolutions in the order of "patriarchy, race . . ." Thus it would seem patriarchy is primary among the world's social problems, race is secondary, and class and empire and war are tertiary, quaternary etc. I'd disagree and argue that it's difficult to say which problems are worst, why, and in what situations.
For example, it could be argued that class is often at least as big of a problem as gender for poor women, as well as poor men, as gender is for wealthy women. Imperialism and war can be as big of problems for rich men in war zones as class is for poor men in relatively stable societies.
[Just had to correct a few typos]
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» RE: The best commentator I've found on the arc on civilization, the current peaking of
Posted by: ATH
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Posted by: sre on Aug 15, 2008 4:29 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Who Exactly Is The "Government"?
Posted by: edgar1
» RE: Nothing's wrong
Posted by: ATH
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Posted by: Last Chance on Aug 15, 2008 5:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» hyperbole
Posted by: edgar1
» Reality.
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: hyperbole
Posted by: mobilone
» edgar1
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» veggiegrrrl
Posted by: Last Chance
» Out of sight out of mind
Posted by: toddcory
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Posted by: Growthbuster on Aug 15, 2008 5:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The most important part of this message is that 99.9% of us just can't see the forest for the trees. We are so enmeshed in the system that most of the solutions we are considering - even some considered radical - are just tweaks to a system we cannot sustain.
Thank you Robert Jensen! I'll be contacting you to schedule an interview.
Dave Gardner
Producer/Director
Hooked on Growth: Our Misguided Quest for Prosperity
www.growthbusters.com
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Posted by: grmartin on Aug 15, 2008 5:17 AM
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Posted by: kegbot1 on Aug 15, 2008 5:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around. What do you see?
Business people, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy.
You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it."
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» Thankyou
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: Thankyou
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
» inured
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» ....fight to protect it." What"? WHo are the solders that fight? For what?
Posted by: common intelligence
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Posted by: david.model@senecac.on.ca on Aug 15, 2008 5:52 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Information has created a world in which large corporations can operate on a global scale where manufacturing is located in the countries with the cheapest labor thus driving down wages even further.
Information technology has opened the door to the speculative economy where investors divert their money to non-productive investments depriving the real economy of much needed capital. It has also effected the stock market and the concentration of wealth.
As well, information technology has deprived us of some of our civil, political and legal rights. Just look at the 2000 and 2004 elections or the unregulated survellance of citizens.
In addition, it has created a plethora of products such as the increasingly miniaturization of computers, cell phones, and GPS. Their great contribution to consumerism is the much faster rate of both percieved and real obsolecence creating a much greater market for newer generations of these products.
On the bright side, information technology has fashioned a new tool for activists who can now network and plan on a global scale.
Information technology is a very significant revolution in human evolution, one that may accelerate our race towards extinction or generate more hope for awareness and change.
http://www.stateofdarkness.com
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» I agree.
Posted by: Last Chance
» In my opinion, information technology is a recent aspect of the ongoing industrial revolution.
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Aug 15, 2008 6:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because we dont have free minds... because we're enslaved by this corporate fascist system... all these other problems present themselves. But most of the problems you mention are merely symptoms. Be sure to look at the cause of these problems. As long as humanity is controlled by an elite that is actively trying to stampede humanity off a cliff, there is no point in blaming the individual buffalo. Like you said, we are animals. And the occult ruling class uses that fact to its maximum advantage.
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» RE: Why sully the word "revolution"?
Posted by: gsmiley
» What was that number?
Posted by: Last Chance
» If the people knew...
Posted by: PeaceWarrior
» RE: Why sully the word "elite"?
Posted by: zootlux
Comments are closed-
Posted by: QuestionAuthority on Aug 15, 2008 6:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My first question is how we can get off the "train" without a major war that reduces us to barbarism or extinction. The reason I aske this is because any unilateral decision on the part of one country to "get off the train" would immediately be used against it by its enemies that still possess high-technology weaopns. Indeed, the author says that he thinks it may not be possible to peacefully change. It's one thing to point out the problems, it's another to provide realistic solutions or paths. I don't see much of that from the author except for a questionably justified sense of faith in humanity.
My second question is how the author proposes to get the fundamentalist religions to go along without their agreement that humans are social animals. Most religions exault humans as the pinnacle of evolution, placed there by their deity. They are not going to change that point of view - look at the so-called "Rapture" movement, for example. They think their god is going to beam them up like Scotty does to Kirk on Star Trek, leaving the rest of us to die horribly. It's a terribly ungodly, immoral and unmerciful point of view, IMHO. They also claim that their 'sacred' writings predict an all-encomapssing war, so they are looking forward to it rather than trying to avoid it. Look at the current fundamentalist Christian-Israeli links as an example.
Third, I question his assertion that we are not foresighted enough to see the future wreck and the unintended consequences of our industrialization. Rachael Carson was talking about some of this in the 1950's. Look at the environmental movements around the globe. There are plenty of concerned people.
So where does this leave us all? For the moment, in a sinking lifeboat where all the occupants are armed to the teeth and blaming each other for the holes in the hull rather than patching the holes.
I fear for my grand children.
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» The purport of Jensen's article
Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» RE: Serious questions about this article...
Posted by: leafsong1
» Only fifty million Americans?
Posted by: Cathyc
» Why would you say this?
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» RE: Why would you say this?
Posted by: suprmark
» RE: Why would you say this?
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Serious questions about this article...
Posted by: mnstra
» RE: Serious questions about this article...
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ellie on Aug 15, 2008 6:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
there is a Lakota saying 'mitayke oyasin' we are all related, which includes the belief that we are no better then any other person or living entity, including earth itself, and each has an impact on each other, positive or negative...
time for humans to grow up and accept these facts...
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» RE: excellent and articulate article...
Posted by: dayenta
» RE: excellent and articulate article...
Posted by: youtopia
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Posted by: stormywindmill on Aug 15, 2008 6:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» beck- good question.
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: beck- good question. Good for you!
Posted by: Beck
» I'm not sure you get why I shudder
Posted by: Beck
» RE: 75 Million extra mouths ; who are the "extra" ones? You? Me?
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on Aug 15, 2008 6:53 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: BROOMSTICK REVOLUTION
Posted by: EinMD
» Second that
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: Sorry folks........
Posted by: jeffrey7
» No Jeff, presentation is readability and credibility. Stream of consciousness bullroar that's
Posted by: thekidde
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Posted by: TarryFaster on Aug 15, 2008 7:02 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Click here.
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» Yep, Anarchy is what it is...
Posted by: Cathyc
» I see nothing here
Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» RE: I see nothing here
Posted by: TarryFaster
» RE: A More Succinct Explanation
Posted by: youtopia
» RE: A More Succinct Explanation
Posted by: TarryFaster
Comments are closed-
Posted by: PaulK on Aug 15, 2008 7:05 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Or he could have chosen big business's government-approved mass poisoning of the earth's people with carcinogens. A young American's chance of dealing with cancer in her/his lifetime is 1 in 2 now, where it used to be 1 in 1800 before the year 1900. Will we wait until the odds are 9 in 10?
As humans we experiment with sex, which is addictive, and we breeders generally get drawn in to love and marriage and kids (not that gay and lesbian lovers don't wind up with a few kids themselves). Porn seems to be less an earth-ending activity and more a step towards winding up with kids, which is the opposite of earth-ending.
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» RE: Of all the crises in the world, he singles out porn
Posted by: DaBear
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Posted by: Godfather89 on Aug 15, 2008 7:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are going to need novelty and freedom again in the world. We are going to need to take risks and tolerate peoples way of living. We must turn away from the pop culture of extravagance because soon extravagance will have no meaning.
THE PARTY IS OVER
THE DRINKS ARE GONE.
ITS TIME TO GET SOBER,
AND REALIZE WHAT WE HAVE DONE...
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Posted by: Cathyc on Aug 15, 2008 7:25 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The problem with this guy (Robert Jensen) is...
Posted by: dayenta
» RE: The problem with this guy (Robert Jensen) is...
Posted by: grmartin
» RE: The problem with this guy (Robert Jensen) is...
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: The problem with this guy (Robert Jensen) is...
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: The problem with this guy (Robert Jensen) is...
Posted by: richholland
» Fundamental Misunderstanding Of Essay
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BobbieP on Aug 15, 2008 7:26 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The expensive, lethal power reactors and war machines that use atomic fission products are dangerous to all mankind. Yet multiple accidents in France are hushed up to protect the bottom line of a company that is already here in the USA busily applying to build reactors. The UK has canceled their 12 Billion Pound contract for reactors, but the USA prefers a news blackout and lunges mindlessly full speed ahead on the reactors from that same French company.
The Germans studied the consequences of fallout. They found that children are significantly affected by living within 100 miles of a reactor: childhood leukemia and other cancers result. They have decided to dismantle their entire nuclear power program. Of course, we all die from radiation but the kids go first, then in 20 or 30 years the adults follow.
We in the USA are killing ourselves and future generations of every living being. We still have strontium 90 in milk, animals, wine, eggs and baby teeth near reactors or in streams of air that carry this pollution worldwide.
Indian Point is leaking radiation, and the big business is trying madly to turn the failing rectors over to a new company to avoid paying the billions of damage they may soon cause if they are not shut down. The deadly reactors are 35 miles from Manhattan. Doesn't that worry anyone?
Google Tricastin. You will get the official cleaned up, minimized story. The water table is radioactive, and you would be better off drinking wine from Chile, at least until Argentina kicks off its nuclear sub building. Read: subs use weapons grade uranium.
When will intelligence and responsibility reassert? Before it's too late? Or is it too late already?
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» Is it too late already?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: The high road to extinction indeed
Posted by: Dboy
» Not About Individual Problems
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
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Posted by: Carol Burns on Aug 15, 2008 7:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Driving Miss Daisy
Posted by: PeaceWarrior
» It all depends on what you mean by "education"
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: Spiritgirl on Aug 15, 2008 7:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And why are so many Americans abdicating the thinking process? Have we just been dumbed down to the point that we can't or won't even pay enough attention to the avarice, lies, and fraud that is being perpetrated on us?!
Look at t.v. ads any given time of the day - I know that you see the lies! ExxonMobile talking about "how much they are doing for" the environment! The ads Sen. McCain are using are based upon lies, and they should insult the intelligence of every thinking person!
Yes, we are facing an assault of our own making from many, many fronts. The way out is not to bury our heads in the sand, or run around screaming about the sky falling in, the way out is to roll up our sleeves and put one foot in front of the other in a positive direction!
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» RE: Thank you, for the truth....
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: craigandrew on Aug 15, 2008 7:45 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is true that we are at the end of a feast period, and it is also true that we will not know what will be required to survive the coming famine until after it happens, but i do know that sitting around screaming doom, gloom, and "the end of times" like crybabies will certainly not be a trait of survivors.
If we lighten up, and pursue the things the we see will be important to survive the coming famine - as individuals - then we will be far more likely to survive. But, please give up on the whole population surviving... that is just not how evolution works.
Have a nice day. C:)
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» And you know this because your crystal ball told you?
Posted by: EinMD
» i just spit rice and avocado on my laptop
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: i just spit rice and avocado on my laptop; lol
Posted by: phoolish
» RE: We are not going to go extinct...
Posted by: gsmiley
» RE: We are not going to go extinct...
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: to you all...
Posted by: craigandrew
» "But, the species does not go extinct..."
Posted by: Cathyc
» Quite right
Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» Be aware of polarizing politics.
Posted by: craigandrew
» RE: Overshoot and die-back . . .
Posted by: editnetwork
» RE: We are not going to go extinct...
Posted by: youtopia
Comments are closed-
Posted by: goldmarx on Aug 15, 2008 8:00 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jensen really has no desire to offer any kind of progressive critique of pornography. As a Dworkinite, he is committed to its destruction, not to its criticism. It's like saying "Mein Kampf" offered a critique of Judaism.
If you want to see progressive criticism of porn content, the best place is the Pro-Porn Activist blog run by Anthony Kennerson and other folks associated with socialist-feminist porn star Nina Hartley, who has starred in more adult films and videos than any woman in history.
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» Just a lame public speaking convention
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Aug 15, 2008 8:58 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
JT
Ultimate Anonymity
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» RE: Pretty Sad
Posted by: badkitty
» The end is nigh - for America at any rate
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: greatferm on Aug 15, 2008 9:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My sig line has always been "Homo Sapiens; the only species ever to go extinct by choice" and I see no reason to change it. We're still on that course. I also hypothesize that the reason we have not been contacted by any other species in the universe is because technology is universally fatal.
We could grow up, but nobody wants to do that, that would be no fun at all. The answers are clear, very clear, and quite available, but we reject them.
Next up, the resource wars. Nobody can win, but everybody can die, not with a bang, but with a whimper, as we strangle in our own shit.
Meanwhile, enjoy the last golden age.
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» RE: Is any of this news ?
Posted by: Dboy
» I think I can answer that from an historical perspective
Posted by: PaulC
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Posted by: KB72 on Aug 15, 2008 9:06 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Like a kid with a messy room, it is a more productive effort to clean ones room with the idea that it should be done anyway, from a moralistic perspective, and with true involvement, rather than doing in fear of parental wrath.
what we imagine to come true has a bit of a way of occurring. I would rather imagine building a factory of automobiles driven by compressed air technology in my milltown village of people who would like jobs, rather than planning out stockpiles of hoarded foodstuffs. I would much rather plant apple trees to feed my neighbors than fertilize my useless lawn.
"It is the work that allows one to live, joyously, while in a profound state of grief."
Live not in the grief. undefine the ugly, embrace the beauty, and in so embrace the power of our consciousness, or God's power, if you will. Leave behind the green Meme, and look toward self evolution as a path onward.
We don't need to de-construct, we need to just change tracks. but, hard work is at hand, and we can find peace in the work. I am 100% sure of it.
Let's lay down our attachments to fear and distractions. Let's educate ourselves on self- evolution-world evolution and embrace the change.
There is no pre-ordination.
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» RE: self fufilling prophecy
Posted by: greatferm
» RE: self fufilling prophecy
Posted by: KB72
» The article agrees that we should "lay down our attachments to fear" in these words
Posted by: Beck
» RE: self fufilling prophesy
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Aug 15, 2008 9:07 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: HughScott on Aug 15, 2008 9:46 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Horrified that my 14-year-old grandson will experience the terrifying last days of Planet Earth.
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» RE: The article makes me feel happy and horrified at the same time.
Posted by: DaBear
» Feeling "pissed off", DaBear, is an understatement.
Posted by: HughScott
» I agree, KB72. Contentment will depend on community involvement. But I prefer corn over grain.
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: I agree, KB72. Contentment will depend on community involvement. But I prefer corn over grain.
Posted by: djnoll
Comments are closed-
Posted by: DaBear on Aug 15, 2008 10:01 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One of them showed up here: Given humans' failure to predict the place we find ourselves today, I don't think that's such a radical statement.
Um.... I'm younger than Robert (I think... unless he's a GenXer too) but even I know that's a false statement. Jensen might not have been aware of half the shit going down right now but sonofabitch, batman, BUTTLOADS of writers and artists were making predictions about this shit decades ago. Where the hell was Robert? In his middle-class/owning class academic tower while others were working with their hands, heads and bodies.
Love the piece though. Good fun and a real argument against liberalism and conservatism. Progs are the ONLY people capable of finding solutions to current problems because they aren't afraid the throw out systems that no longer serve them while liberals and conservatives cling to their delusions.
As far as the doom and gloom thing... yeah, I know a lot of owning/middlings who have that funk. We working class people realize it's gonna be some serious shit and lots of us will be cockroach food (more of us at the bottom of the socio-economic heap than from the owning classers to be sure, some things never change). But the difference is, while the middling/owning classers who've awakened from their long privileged nap are depressed "blissfully joyful-depressed" or whatever the fuck their happy-happy class speak calls it at the moment, we at the bottom are faced with two elements of our everyday reality: 1) we will surely be shat upon even more than ever and we are fucking ripshit pissed off about that, not depressed--geezis, some privilege to be depressed or joyful, and 2) we'll do what we always do, be resourceful, dodge, duck, dive, and.... dodge. Chance will determine whether we go extinct or not. More likely nature will weed us back down to a manageable size and hopefully we working people will be among some of that remnant, maybe not. But it's a crapshoot. For us, that's not depressing or joyful, that's just the same old same old, that's our life.
In the meantime, it's back to the dump to scavenge what we can to live one more day on the earth.
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» He mentioned those who predicted this, and he needs another category of those still on the train
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: evasta7 on Aug 15, 2008 10:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nice philosophical stuff, but it's too late for such vague nicities. As per his train analogy, it's time to rudely pull the emergency stop and jump off the train!
There is an underlying assumption in this piece that there's enough time for our awareness of these problems to develop enough over the next 'few' years for us to act.
Wrong.
We are out of time and the main issue is how much additional suffering are we going to add to the future and how much are we going to avoid.
We’ve already exceed global carrying capacity. We are now in “overshoot”. Global population is nearing 7 billion. Global carrying capacity is about 2 billion. (This assumes some level of social justice and a moderate, low by US standards, standard of living.) We will get to that 2 billion number the hard way (wars, famine, disease, and their accompanying losses of environmental quality, freedom, and social justice) OR the less hard way (immediately and drastically reducing our population voluntarily).
It’s also far too late for any “us” vs “them” arguments or any belief that national boundaries and national political/economic systems will do much to help anyone. This is a global issue with local and nation-state consequences. Immigration, for example, is a consequence of overpopulation, not a cause of it.
This is a slow motion crash that requires immediate action, a bit like trying to steer a supertanker by putting in consisten input over a multi year time frame, and that input is stop making babies. (And it was oil that allowed us to get this far out on a limb, and peak oil has already happened.)
For more on this I suggest http://www.paulchefurka.ca One of his best at this site is The Elephant In The Room.
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» RE: Too Late To Be So Vague
Posted by: KB72
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Posted by: VoteHope on Aug 15, 2008 10:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From our religious beginnings of omnipotent fantasies of possible reasons for what we can not control or understand to today’s fragmented, fractionated, appositional, and segmented cultural representations of our species that geographically map out the land masses of the planet, like dogs or other species urinating to stake out their territories, we continue our tradition of primitive primate behavior. We have no humility is the problem. Our identities are centered on our alliance with our inner view of ourselves that becomes superior to other people because of our association with our egocentric gods, who are really alter ego extensions and projections of our own identities, and as groups our countries or national identities. With humility we can and should see ourselves as animals, dangerous animals, that need to use our intelligence more than our hormone driven behaviors, as animals do, to compete, dominate, and control others, resources, and territory, for securing our own self centered interests and genes in the next generation, as all species do.
Only through intelligent separation from our primitive cultural traditions, such as religion, patriotism, and ethnocentrism will we know humility and realize we are animals and start changing our dominant characteristic: the most dangerous life form on the planet, to becoming the most intelligent and humble and progressive life form on the planet.
Until then our cultural traditions have conserved and preserved generation to generation our dysfunctional identities and cultures. This along with progressive technological prowess will only increase our chance for extinction, not progressive and positive cultural evolution that will only come from humility and a real world view of ourselves as one species. All our cultures, that include languages and religions are art forms, and should be seen as great novels or music is, not the basis for intolerance, bigotry, superiority, and the sheer stupidity of war and very possible extinction.
One World.
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» RE: Traditional Culture is Not Evolution
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: Traditional Culture is Perpetual War
Posted by: VoteHope
» RE: Traditional Culture is Not Evolution
Posted by: Dartagnan
» Are we really?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Are we really? Yes, Even Children R Corrupted!
Posted by: VoteHope
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Aug 15, 2008 11:10 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We, the dominate culture deemed these good poeple 'godless' and set about ruining this side of the World so we could be more like the Europe we left. A true failure in thinking.
Believing coal and oil was good for the society as a whole was another great lapse in thought,as was nuclear power,atom bombs and
George Bush...1 and 2.
We can pull our collective asses out of the fire by doing a few simple things. One being,stop wasteful production. In the creation of false needs to be met we've created a wasteful society and an over abundance of landfills. Moreover if we planted trees instead of cutting them down we'd give ourselves a more healthy air quality.
If we quit using the Great Lakes and the Oceans as a garbagwe dump we can restore the health of those systems.
We need to start seeing ourselves as 'part' of the Creation and not the apex of it. We need to recognize plants,animals,the waters and the air we breath is just as equal to us as our other humans are.
We just need to reintroduce Logic and Wisdom into all that we do. Knowlege tells us we can make an atom bomb,Wisdom tells us we're fools to use it. Logic tells us if we cut down the forests we'll have space for growth,Wisdom tells us doing so endangers the lives of all living things as well as destroying the very system that cleans and restores our air.
The Planet is ours to save or lose and it'sa far more important choice than who's going to be the next 'puppet president'.
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» There were never 100 million Indians here
Posted by: gellero1
» RE: There were never 100 million Indians here,wanna bet?
Posted by: jeffrey7
» RE: There were never 100 million Indians here
Posted by: phoolish
Comments are closed-
Posted by: daw13 on Aug 15, 2008 11:40 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Does it matter if his words are wonderful? You're damned right it matters! The leadership needed must bubble up out of the people.
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» Voice of Reason.
Posted by: Last Chance
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Posted by: Frish on Aug 15, 2008 12:17 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My decision, made 45 years ago, not to have children, was not only prescient, but the right one.
Humans are wired wrong.
We cannot continue on Planet Earth, have just enough smarts to RUIN the planet, not enough to RUN it.
Oh well, live long and die off!
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Posted by: Sojourner on Aug 15, 2008 1:07 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I prefer Thoreau’s commentaries on “lives of quiet desperation” and Emerson’s on “silent melancholy” because those show that some things also do not change.
The least this author might do is refer his listeners back to the authentic sources. And maybe then he might admit that he really has nothing new to tell us.
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Posted by: leemiller38 on Aug 15, 2008 1:30 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From here on out I recommend to all concerned about a gloomy future to donate as much as possible to family planning organizations, such as Planned Parenthood, Engenderhealth, Pathfinder, Americans for UNFPA and organizations fighting to maintain or extend reproductive rights like NARAL and the Center for Reproductive Rights. Your money may prevent a lot of suffering, there will be enough already!
If you love children don't have any.
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» RE: Well Stated and interesting, but not much new here'
Posted by: elisevil
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Posted by: practical idealist on Aug 15, 2008 1:55 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The End Point And The End Game
Prologue:
With the rise of communist China, the advent of peak oil, and an unresolved and unprecedented economic crisis in the United States, it’s not hard to see that history is at turning point. Peak oil and a foundering economy are threatening challenges. But how should we perceive China? The majority of the world’s biggest multinationals have set up shop in China. The world’s capitalists have given China their blessing. So what’s to fear? Well, communists “openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling class tremble at a Communist revolution.” At the heart of Marxism is historical materialism. Here it is not ideas that determine history, but the inexorable push of economic determinism. So are we witnessing a revolution in China, a revolution in means? Do they intend to overthrow capitalism by beating them at their own game? Until they allow dissent, allow proponents of democracy to have their say, they should be perceived as such a threat.
And if so how do we meet that threat? For us, history is determined by our free will as we put forward the ideas that meet the challenges that a changing world presents. Yet up to this point we seem to be at loss. And neither Obama nor McCain, as they seek the White House, has presented a clear strategy either for economic recovery or ideological victory.
So, given the gravity of these issues it’s best that we consider the worst-case Marxist scenario and then consider the practical idealism that can resolve these challenges.
http://theendpoint.blogspot.com/
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Posted by: timbottoms on Aug 15, 2008 5:12 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Here's a simple "idea"
Posted by: SevenStarHand
» "...make that time meaningful." Doesn't matter what kind of meaning?
Posted by: Sojourner
» I think you missed the point, just a bit!
Posted by: Frish
» RE: Absolutely Terrible Article
Posted by: youtopia
Comments are closed-
Posted by: nihilozero on Aug 15, 2008 6:39 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another Way of Knowing
&
Primitivism
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» RE: WOW. WOW!
Posted by: phoolish
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Posted by: nemonemini on Aug 15, 2008 6:46 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Darwinism and social crisis
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Posted by: SevenStarHand on Aug 15, 2008 7:09 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Perhaps this generation deserves to be "recycled." That would certainly force the remnant to think a little more deeply. This is a sad, sad, example of what I have feared the most. Far to many people speak well, yet barely think about what they say.
I am utterly disgusted with most of humanity and it's time to go away for a spell. Good luck...
Time to get a clue...
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Posted by: lufinn on Aug 16, 2008 7:09 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For predictable reasons involving human nature and the future inevitability of our cushy and unsustainable lifestyle collapsing, the realities of our society's energy crisis, amongst the myriad other crisis, are being side stepped continually while so-called alternatives that are NOT reality based are being touted as the nation's energy salvation.
It is uncomfortable, it is frightening, it is doom saying. It is happening as we read this.
Over the past hundred and fifty years, our segment of civilization has burned seven hundred years worth of petroleum fuel, at a continuously accelerating rate each year over the last. It is a resource that is almost gone in two aspects. First is the rate at which we consume it and hurl the byproducts into the environment, causing irreparable damage to the earth's climate system that KEEPS US ALIVE! Second is that the real crisis over oil will not begin when the last drop of oil is ceremoniously burned in some weed trimmer, but will occur when more that fifty percent of the populace can no longer afford energy or goods connected with the oil, causing terrible decisions over whether to feed our children or heat the house to keep them from freezing because we cannot afford both any longer. This winter, that will begin here.
It is gong to get worse. It is not going to get better. Yes, there will be tantalizing fluctuations calculated to wag the dog and give small hope while keeping righteous rioters from burning oil companies headquarters and lynching CEO's, but none will have any real substance. All they will serve will be to drive financial markets for profit and have no real effect over the long run on the steady price increases and dwindling supply.
The bad news, no disrespect to Al Gore, is that even if they miraculously installed some new magical carbon neutral alternative and everyone on earth stopped using oil tomorrow at noon, the system would still crash and the environment would take nearly a thousand years to even begin to approach recovery from the abuse we have heaped upon it. The damage that has been done is severe and cannot be listed fully without many pages, so I will mention only a few overwhelming and unsolvable problems.
Massive deforestation of rain and temperate forests, pollution and carbon saturation of our air, pollution of the oceans and over harvesting of them so severely it will lead to probable extinction of most of our food species, and our overpopulation to the point that any major crisis in environment will cause catastrophic loss of human life.
The really bad news is that there are currently NO real alternatives that are workable on the scale necessary to substitute for oil, which Robert has mentioned here.
Every alternative suggested so far has one or more of several problems preventing it from feasibility. The largest of these is that most are reliant upon petroleum for production of a key component and therefore cannot be a real alternative. Pie in the sky energy theory is unworkable.
Solar is out other than small scale home projects for the wealthy. The cells, converters and batteries require mining of elements and high energy production costs, as well as a high reliance upon petroleum products in installation and construction. Ever see a wooden solar panel?
Ethanol is off the list because the large crop sizes are driven completely by petroleum based fertilizers, transportation and processing equipment, and the additional fact that all the ethanol producing plants here are coal powered.
continued next post
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Posted by: lufinn on Aug 16, 2008 7:13 AM
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Conservation is a good idea, but oil is still going to run out, period. The gas tank is only so big and we are looking at the bottom.
Nuclear is right out. There is no safe method of storing the most hazardous waste products in existence. Since the elements involved are also quite rare, (besides involving petroleum reliant mining processes to acquire them) building more dangerous nuke plants is not a sane option unless you work for the industry, and in that case they imagine it is more safe than cotton candy.
Wind power is based upon finely tooled metal machinery, (mining the ore is petroleum reliant, remember?) it is expensive, complicated, and would need upkeep such as replacement parts made with that same oil processed metals. Even wires used to transmit electricity are petroleum dependent when you consider the plastics for insulation and that fact there are no solar powered metal smelting operations out there.
Examples are continually thrown at us from very small experiments that seem positively miraculous until taken to a scale required to feasibly supply a large city, not to mention a regional or national grid.
At this point, some clever individual will usually try to insert the old republican oil baron talking point about never underestimating the power of human ingenuity, and that every time mankind has confronted this or some similar problem in history, someone invented something that saved us all. This person has a reality based upon Hollywood, not the real world. There is a simple reality check here. I ask that person to name a single event in history that is similar to this type or level of crisis. Surprise! There has NEVER been a problem like this in human history, period. This is NOT a movie where the actor paid to play the clever good guy inventor comes up with the simple, cheap method of producing unlimited clean energy in a tea cup at the last second, saving mankind and our precious American way of life.
Placing all your faith upon a technology that does not yet exist and at this point is not even on the remote horizon is stupid, not ignorant.
We had all better face the unpleasant and grim realities that the following will happen soon, but there is no definitive, pinpointed date:
A- We are soon to suffer a catastrophic loss of our energy and food production and distribution systems.
B- we are about suffering the collapse of our economic system.
C- We are about to lose our wealthy status on the world.
D- We are about to have a massive reduction in our lifestyle, probably a set back to about the early 1800's technologically speaking.
E- We will probably see a large loss of life resulting from the above.
Now is the time to get REAL and begin gardening, preserving food, finding alternative heating and cooking resources on small scales for your family's survival over the next decades or soon the materials to do so will be past acquiring after the system's collapse.
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» RE: continued
Posted by: timbottoms
» RE: continued
Posted by: lufinn
» RE: continued
Posted by: timbottoms
» RE: continued
Posted by: timbottoms
» RE: continued
Posted by: timbottoms
» RE: carbon neutral
Posted by: lufinn
» RE: carbon neutral
Posted by: timbottoms
» RE: carbon neutral
Posted by: lufinn
» luffin you are wrong
Posted by: hopeforthefuture
» RE: luffin you are wrong
Posted by: hopeforthefuture
» RE: luffin you are wrong
Posted by: hopeforthefuture
» To timbottoms please post some links
Posted by: hopeforthefuture
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Posted by: Daniel35 on Aug 16, 2008 7:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In reality, each and every one of us are responsible for this crash, and could make some effort to avoid it. Unknown factors could work in our favor also, so maybe our actions, along with others', would be enough to make a big difference. The passengers represent the total momentum of this train. The biospheric system is trying reduce the curve in the track, to maintain equilibrium ("Gaia theory"), but it's not prepared for our speed and momentum. Considering the positive feedback effects of global warming, each of us is actually leaning on the accelerator pedal.
Each of us 'exhales' CO2 in many different ways, some in more ways and greater amounts than others. If we see the coming crash as the end of everything we hold dear, any of us who can't convince at least ourselves that our actions have a net result of reducing the odds of a crash should get off the train, completely off, not just in the baggage car.
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Posted by: lufinn on Aug 16, 2008 12:44 PM
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If we were all on a shrinking iceberg with people sliding off the sides as it shrank, it might be a good visual.
The iceberg lasted longer than the Titanic, though, and there is a better analogy.
You are on the Titanic, just after the impact, and the ship is OBVIOUSLY sinking except to those most deluded and deepest in denial. You are in the north Atlantic, in winter, the ship will be submerged in a couple hours, in the frigid water you will only survive minutes, and the closest help is too far away to have any effect on the outcome. Oh, yeah, and there are way too few life boats for everyone.
You see a group of officers passing the captain's hat, each ducking responsibility by passing it to the next and congratulating him on his promotion. (It didn't matter who the captain was after the impact, and it doesn't matter who the president is after this election.)
You stop a passenger and ask them to help you with the last lifeboat, but he tells you one of the officers informed him the crew is downstairs with cases of bubblegum and they are chewing up a storm, and that the hole will be patched in no time at all and the ship will reach NY sooner than anticipated. (The various parts of out government continue to tell us everything is just fine, don't worry, there is no such thing as global warming, and there is lots of oil for years to come.)
You stop another passenger, and she discounts your idea entirely while standing in her expensive ball gown, arguing that the she has been assured you are in no danger, its cold down there in a lifeboat, and there probably isn't any waiting staff to serve her there anyway.
(I don't even want to hear a word about having to unwillingly change to a lower lifestyle.)
You give up on the misinformed masses and after gathering blankets, some food and drink, and some flare pistols, you begin lowering the last lifeboat with anyone of like mind.
It is now moot who or what caused this to be happening, it is now simply a matter of surviving what will be coming down the pike, and not decades from now, actually much sooner.
Brace yourselves.
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» RE: we're on the Titanic
Posted by: phoolish
» RE: we're on the Titanic
Posted by: lufinn
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Posted by: Romans1 on Aug 16, 2008 5:15 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Population leveling off
Posted by: timbottoms
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Posted by: Ignatz deFyre on Aug 18, 2008 10:31 AM
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While in the past wars and human crises were rooted in economic causes, dreams of empire, and natural disasters, today these events are contrived and exploited for economic gain. We are seeing this right now in resource wars, precipitation of food, drug and health crises, and profiteering from natural disaters. Capitalism takes everything, absolutely everything, and tries to monetize it.
We are witnessing the natural consequences of society trying to disembed itself from the parasite that is capitalism. What system will replace it, I don't know. But the withdrawal is starting to look pretty painful.
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Posted by: kyhardhead on Aug 22, 2008 1:32 AM
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But that's OK, because the changes predicted or alluded to are coming, willy-nilly, whether we talk about them or not. And all and none of the talk will slow down the coming, nor change it in any meaningful way. This Brobdingnagian cruise ship we're on here in la-la land has been going full steam ahead now for decades, and we've only just begun, on the fringes, to wonder where it's headed. Very few have a sense of how much lead time it takes to make a turn on this thing; and the turn called for isn't just a gentle tack, but an all-out full reverse.
What's happening is that we're starting to come down from our millennial trip, but the cow is way on down the road now, plumb into the next county. The best we can hope for at this point is that some poor lost goat will come wandering through; more likely, we'll have to learn to do without our milk and butter. It's too late to do anything else.
If you got kids, don't waste your time and energy working to send them through college; college is going to be about as useful as the money you supposedly could earn by going there. Teach 'em how to hunt, and fish, and butcher meat, and grow gardens, and build things; teach 'em a trade or how to fix things with their hands. Those are the "skills" that will keep them alive and get them ahead in the new world a-comin'.
And if you believe in those kinds of things, say a little prayer for the rest and peace of Jimmy Carter, the only truly decent man to hold high office in this country, and who tried to tell us, 30 years ago, when it might have made a difference, what was coming.
And you ask why I don't live here -
Honey, how come you don't move?
- R. Zimmerman
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Posted by: ankhet on Aug 15, 2008 1:00 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How to live within this "creation" is our task, and we've totally screwed it up.
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» RE: Amen...
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» RE: Amen...
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: Amen...
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» RE: Amen... Traditional Culture is The Antitheses of Cultural Evolution
Posted by: VoteHope
» Another timely offering from a "wilderness voice"...
Posted by: SevenStarHand
» Growing Up in the Universe
Posted by: Richard House
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Posted by: mmckinl on Aug 15, 2008 2:15 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As we have seen the it has been the role of finance that has shaped the 20th century. The guilded age brought about WWI as the Great European powers spent and borrowed their way into bankruptcy that could only be remedied with the invention of enemies. WWII, the same as the ravages of the Great Depression lead Germany and Japan and later Italy in search of territory to conquer and loot.
It is now finance that intervenes once again. Our coming wars will be efforts to blind us to the fact that we have been bankrupted once again by Wall Street and that no amount of destruction and bloodshed will deter those that control the monopoly of money creation through fractional reserve banking to preserve their pernicious privilege.
It has been through the debt and debenture of neoliberal banking and disaster capitalism that our fortunes have been sanctioned but these instruments of pillage are now turned on our selves. The very framework of the economy, the production and infrastructure are being neglected, torn apart and dismembered to fuel the fires of consumption of the debt created by fractional reserve banking.
The very life blood of our economy, our money, is carrying the disease of our destruction, the financial cancer of the geometric growth of debt caused by fractional reserve banking.
We need money based on the full faith and credit of the people, not borrowed money with interest that enslaves our environment to so called wealth creation and our futures to debt servitude.
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» RE: Agricultural, Industrial, ... CAPITALIST ... Delusional ...
Posted by: editnetwork
» Better Is Not Always More Spending
Posted by: edgar1
» Why did you ignore the one category of spending that has grown more than any other under Bush?
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: Better Is Not Always More Spending
Posted by: Spot
» 1914 and all that
Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» Disassociated from Reality ..
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: 1914 and all that ... Fractional Reserve Banking is a problem ...
Posted by: mmckinl
» Let the money supply stagnate all it wants
Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» RE: Let the money supply stagnate all it wants ... the problem is ...
Posted by: mmckinl
» RE: Let the money supply stagnate all it wants ... the problem is ...
Posted by: editnetwork
» Mother Jones weighs in . . .
Posted by: editnetwork
» Money is a great deception and delusion
Posted by: SevenStarHand
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Posted by: andabottleof_rum on Aug 15, 2008 2:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a good article. The anthropological overview of society rapidly morphing upon the advent of agriculture is very valuable. This transition is not nearly discussed enough outside of specialized academic circles; it certainly doesn't play the role in popular leftist political discourse that it should.
Understanding that social inequality and unsustainability grows out of productive activities, which allow self-aggrandizers to concentrate wealth and power, is one of the essential insights for a serious discussion of poverty or environmental degradation. It follows from this insight that inequality and unsustainability are inevitable in a productive economy, as opposed to a more passive foraging economy, which would seem to negate the value of the feel-good simple fixes so often proposed by the political left as well as the right. Hence, perhaps, the general omission of the agricultural and industrial revolutions from popular political debate.
I do have a small quibble with the PC ranking of systems of inequality implied in the author's writing. He invariable lists the problems resulting from the agricultural, industrial, and propaganda revolutions in the order of "patriarch, race . . ." Thus it would seem patriarchy is primary among the world's social problems, race is secondary, and class and empire and war are tertiary, quaternary etc. I'd disagree and argue that it's difficult to say which problems are worst, why, and in what situations.
For example, it could be argued that class is often at least as big of a problem as gender for poor women, as well as poor men, as gender is for wealthy women. Imperialism and war can be as big of problems for rich men in war zones as class is for poor men in relatively stable societies.
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» The current peaking of complexity, and the impending descent to simpler and simpler forms
Posted by: Lloyd Drako
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Posted by: DrGeneNelson on Aug 15, 2008 3:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The root cause is soaring populations, far in excess of the carrying capacity of the local economy.
We are the only species that can develop an accurate model of the future. http://www.Census.gov shows the current world population at 6.72 billion on 15 August 2008. The world population has doubled in about 40 years. Much of that population growth is the consequence of inexpensive petroleum.
Eventually, the world population will be forced to match available resources. Absent voluntary (or coerced) population control, the means include war, famine, and disease. The latter three are painful.
While there were futurists and environmentalists who raised concerns about U.S. overpopulation in the 1970s, they were shouted down by special interests who understood the concept "overpopulation is profitable." Labor gluts drive down middle-class wages. Population gluts drive up the price of the necessaries of life. Usually, the economic beneficiaries of overpopulation are members of the economic elite.
I remember a bumper sticker from about 40 years ago, "condoms, not condominiums." Will our species understand these concepts before it is too late?
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» RE: Overpopulation is Profitable
Posted by: BlammDaddy
» RE: Overpopulation is Profitable
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: "Mostly subconscious" (LastChance's comment)
Posted by: editnetwork
» RE: Overpopulation is Profitable
Posted by: Bambi
» So, America's House of Cards is collapsing...
Posted by: Cathyc
» Jensen's article = REAL BAD, because it does not mention overpopulation
Posted by: stilldreaming
» RE: Overpopulation is Profitable
Posted by: luzyrea
» Root Cause
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
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Posted by: andabottleof_rum on Aug 15, 2008 3:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a good article. The anthropological overview of society rapidly morphing upon the advent of agriculture is very valuable. This transition is not nearly discussed enough outside of specialized academic circles; it certainly doesn't play the role in popular leftist political discourse that it should.
Understanding that social inequality and unsustainability grow out of productive activities, which allow self-aggrandizers to concentrate surplus resources and therefore power, is one of the essential insights for a serious discussion of poverty or environmental degradation. It follows from this insight that inequality and unsustainability are inevitable in a productive economy, as opposed to a more passive foraging economy, which would seem to negate the value of the feel-good simple fixes so often proposed by the political left as well as the right. Hence, perhaps, the general omission of the agricultural and industrial revolutions from popular political debate.
I do have a small quibble with the PC ranking of systems of inequality that is implied in the author's writing. He invariably lists the problems resulting from the agricultural, industrial, and propaganda revolutions in the order of "patriarchy, race . . ." Thus it would seem patriarchy is primary among the world's social problems, race is secondary, and class and empire and war are tertiary, quaternary etc. I'd disagree and argue that it's difficult to say which problems are worst, why, and in what situations.
For example, it could be argued that class is often at least as big of a problem as gender for poor women, as well as poor men, as gender is for wealthy women. Imperialism and war can be as big of problems for rich men in war zones as class is for poor men in relatively stable societies.
[Just had to correct a few typos]
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» RE: The best commentator I've found on the arc on civilization, the current peaking of
Posted by: ATH
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Posted by: sre on Aug 15, 2008 4:29 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Who Exactly Is The "Government"?
Posted by: edgar1
» RE: Nothing's wrong
Posted by: ATH
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Posted by: Last Chance on Aug 15, 2008 5:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» hyperbole
Posted by: edgar1
» Reality.
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: hyperbole
Posted by: mobilone
» edgar1
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» veggiegrrrl
Posted by: Last Chance
» Out of sight out of mind
Posted by: toddcory
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Posted by: Growthbuster on Aug 15, 2008 5:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The most important part of this message is that 99.9% of us just can't see the forest for the trees. We are so enmeshed in the system that most of the solutions we are considering - even some considered radical - are just tweaks to a system we cannot sustain.
Thank you Robert Jensen! I'll be contacting you to schedule an interview.
Dave Gardner
Producer/Director
Hooked on Growth: Our Misguided Quest for Prosperity
www.growthbusters.com
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Posted by: grmartin on Aug 15, 2008 5:17 AM
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Posted by: kegbot1 on Aug 15, 2008 5:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around. What do you see?
Business people, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy.
You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it."
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» Thankyou
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: Thankyou
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
» inured
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» ....fight to protect it." What"? WHo are the solders that fight? For what?
Posted by: common intelligence
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Posted by: david.model@senecac.on.ca on Aug 15, 2008 5:52 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Information has created a world in which large corporations can operate on a global scale where manufacturing is located in the countries with the cheapest labor thus driving down wages even further.
Information technology has opened the door to the speculative economy where investors divert their money to non-productive investments depriving the real economy of much needed capital. It has also effected the stock market and the concentration of wealth.
As well, information technology has deprived us of some of our civil, political and legal rights. Just look at the 2000 and 2004 elections or the unregulated survellance of citizens.
In addition, it has created a plethora of products such as the increasingly miniaturization of computers, cell phones, and GPS. Their great contribution to consumerism is the much faster rate of both percieved and real obsolecence creating a much greater market for newer generations of these products.
On the bright side, information technology has fashioned a new tool for activists who can now network and plan on a global scale.
Information technology is a very significant revolution in human evolution, one that may accelerate our race towards extinction or generate more hope for awareness and change.
http://www.stateofdarkness.com
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» I agree.
Posted by: Last Chance
» In my opinion, information technology is a recent aspect of the ongoing industrial revolution.
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Aug 15, 2008 6:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because we dont have free minds... because we're enslaved by this corporate fascist system... all these other problems present themselves. But most of the problems you mention are merely symptoms. Be sure to look at the cause of these problems. As long as humanity is controlled by an elite that is actively trying to stampede humanity off a cliff, there is no point in blaming the individual buffalo. Like you said, we are animals. And the occult ruling class uses that fact to its maximum advantage.
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» RE: Why sully the word "revolution"?
Posted by: gsmiley
» What was that number?
Posted by: Last Chance
» If the people knew...
Posted by: PeaceWarrior
» RE: Why sully the word "elite"?
Posted by: zootlux
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Posted by: QuestionAuthority on Aug 15, 2008 6:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My first question is how we can get off the "train" without a major war that reduces us to barbarism or extinction. The reason I aske this is because any unilateral decision on the part of one country to "get off the train" would immediately be used against it by its enemies that still possess high-technology weaopns. Indeed, the author says that he thinks it may not be possible to peacefully change. It's one thing to point out the problems, it's another to provide realistic solutions or paths. I don't see much of that from the author except for a questionably justified sense of faith in humanity.
My second question is how the author proposes to get the fundamentalist religions to go along without their agreement that humans are social animals. Most religions exault humans as the pinnacle of evolution, placed there by their deity. They are not going to change that point of view - look at the so-called "Rapture" movement, for example. They think their god is going to beam them up like Scotty does to Kirk on Star Trek, leaving the rest of us to die horribly. It's a terribly ungodly, immoral and unmerciful point of view, IMHO. They also claim that their 'sacred' writings predict an all-encomapssing war, so they are looking forward to it rather than trying to avoid it. Look at the current fundamentalist Christian-Israeli links as an example.
Third, I question his assertion that we are not foresighted enough to see the future wreck and the unintended consequences of our industrialization. Rachael Carson was talking about some of this in the 1950's. Look at the environmental movements around the globe. There are plenty of concerned people.
So where does this leave us all? For the moment, in a sinking lifeboat where all the occupants are armed to the teeth and blaming each other for the holes in the hull rather than patching the holes.
I fear for my grand children.
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» The purport of Jensen's article
Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» RE: Serious questions about this article...
Posted by: leafsong1
» Only fifty million Americans?
Posted by: Cathyc
» Why would you say this?
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» RE: Why would you say this?
Posted by: suprmark
» RE: Why would you say this?
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Serious questions about this article...
Posted by: mnstra
» RE: Serious questions about this article...
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
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Posted by: ellie on Aug 15, 2008 6:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
there is a Lakota saying 'mitayke oyasin' we are all related, which includes the belief that we are no better then any other person or living entity, including earth itself, and each has an impact on each other, positive or negative...
time for humans to grow up and accept these facts...
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» RE: excellent and articulate article...
Posted by: dayenta
» RE: excellent and articulate article...
Posted by: youtopia
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Posted by: stormywindmill on Aug 15, 2008 6:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» beck- good question.
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: beck- good question. Good for you!
Posted by: Beck
» I'm not sure you get why I shudder
Posted by: Beck
» RE: 75 Million extra mouths ; who are the "extra" ones? You? Me?
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on Aug 15, 2008 6:53 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: BROOMSTICK REVOLUTION
Posted by: EinMD
» Second that
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: Sorry folks........
Posted by: jeffrey7
» No Jeff, presentation is readability and credibility. Stream of consciousness bullroar that's
Posted by: thekidde
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Posted by: TarryFaster on Aug 15, 2008 7:02 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Click here.
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» Yep, Anarchy is what it is...
Posted by: Cathyc
» I see nothing here
Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» RE: I see nothing here
Posted by: TarryFaster
» RE: A More Succinct Explanation
Posted by: youtopia
» RE: A More Succinct Explanation
Posted by: TarryFaster
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Posted by: PaulK on Aug 15, 2008 7:05 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Or he could have chosen big business's government-approved mass poisoning of the earth's people with carcinogens. A young American's chance of dealing with cancer in her/his lifetime is 1 in 2 now, where it used to be 1 in 1800 before the year 1900. Will we wait until the odds are 9 in 10?
As humans we experiment with sex, which is addictive, and we breeders generally get drawn in to love and marriage and kids (not that gay and lesbian lovers don't wind up with a few kids themselves). Porn seems to be less an earth-ending activity and more a step towards winding up with kids, which is the opposite of earth-ending.
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» RE: Of all the crises in the world, he singles out porn
Posted by: DaBear
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Posted by: Godfather89 on Aug 15, 2008 7:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are going to need novelty and freedom again in the world. We are going to need to take risks and tolerate peoples way of living. We must turn away from the pop culture of extravagance because soon extravagance will have no meaning.
THE PARTY IS OVER
THE DRINKS ARE GONE.
ITS TIME TO GET SOBER,
AND REALIZE WHAT WE HAVE DONE...
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Posted by: Cathyc on Aug 15, 2008 7:25 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The problem with this guy (Robert Jensen) is...
Posted by: dayenta
» RE: The problem with this guy (Robert Jensen) is...
Posted by: grmartin
» RE: The problem with this guy (Robert Jensen) is...
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: The problem with this guy (Robert Jensen) is...
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: The problem with this guy (Robert Jensen) is...
Posted by: richholland
» Fundamental Misunderstanding Of Essay
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
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Posted by: BobbieP on Aug 15, 2008 7:26 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The expensive, lethal power reactors and war machines that use atomic fission products are dangerous to all mankind. Yet multiple accidents in France are hushed up to protect the bottom line of a company that is already here in the USA busily applying to build reactors. The UK has canceled their 12 Billion Pound contract for reactors, but the USA prefers a news blackout and lunges mindlessly full speed ahead on the reactors from that same French company.
The Germans studied the consequences of fallout. They found that children are significantly affected by living within 100 miles of a reactor: childhood leukemia and other cancers result. They have decided to dismantle their entire nuclear power program. Of course, we all die from radiation but the kids go first, then in 20 or 30 years the adults follow.
We in the USA are killing ourselves and future generations of every living being. We still have strontium 90 in milk, animals, wine, eggs and baby teeth near reactors or in streams of air that carry this pollution worldwide.
Indian Point is leaking radiation, and the big business is trying madly to turn the failing rectors over to a new company to avoid paying the billions of damage they may soon cause if they are not shut down. The deadly reactors are 35 miles from Manhattan. Doesn't that worry anyone?
Google Tricastin. You will get the official cleaned up, minimized story. The water table is radioactive, and you would be better off drinking wine from Chile, at least until Argentina kicks off its nuclear sub building. Read: subs use weapons grade uranium.
When will intelligence and responsibility reassert? Before it's too late? Or is it too late already?
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» Is it too late already?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: The high road to extinction indeed
Posted by: Dboy
» Not About Individual Problems
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman
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Posted by: Carol Burns on Aug 15, 2008 7:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Driving Miss Daisy
Posted by: PeaceWarrior
» It all depends on what you mean by "education"
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: Spiritgirl on Aug 15, 2008 7:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And why are so many Americans abdicating the thinking process? Have we just been dumbed down to the point that we can't or won't even pay enough attention to the avarice, lies, and fraud that is being perpetrated on us?!
Look at t.v. ads any given time of the day - I know that you see the lies! ExxonMobile talking about "how much they are doing for" the environment! The ads Sen. McCain are using are based upon lies, and they should insult the intelligence of every thinking person!
Yes, we are facing an assault of our own making from many, many fronts. The way out is not to bury our heads in the sand, or run around screaming about the sky falling in, the way out is to roll up our sleeves and put one foot in front of the other in a positive direction!
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» RE: Thank you, for the truth....
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: craigandrew on Aug 15, 2008 7:45 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is true that we are at the end of a feast period, and it is also true that we will not know what will be required to survive the coming famine until after it happens, but i do know that sitting around screaming doom, gloom, and "the end of times" like crybabies will certainly not be a trait of survivors.
If we lighten up, and pursue the things the we see will be important to survive the coming famine - as individuals - then we will be far more likely to survive. But, please give up on the whole population surviving... that is just not how evolution works.
Have a nice day. C:)
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» And you know this because your crystal ball told you?
Posted by: EinMD
» i just spit rice and avocado on my laptop
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: i just spit rice and avocado on my laptop; lol
Posted by: phoolish
» RE: We are not going to go extinct...
Posted by: gsmiley
» RE: We are not going to go extinct...
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: to you all...
Posted by: craigandrew
» "But, the species does not go extinct..."
Posted by: Cathyc
» Quite right
Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» Be aware of polarizing politics.
Posted by: craigandrew
» RE: Overshoot and die-back . . .
Posted by: editnetwork
» RE: We are not going to go extinct...
Posted by: youtopia
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Posted by: goldmarx on Aug 15, 2008 8:00 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jensen really has no desire to offer any kind of progressive critique of pornography. As a Dworkinite, he is committed to its destruction, not to its criticism. It's like saying "Mein Kampf" offered a critique of Judaism.
If you want to see progressive criticism of porn content, the best place is the Pro-Porn Activist blog run by Anthony Kennerson and other folks associated with socialist-feminist porn star Nina Hartley, who has starred in more adult films and videos than any woman in history.
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» Just a lame public speaking convention
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Aug 15, 2008 8:58 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
JT
Ultimate Anonymity
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» RE: Pretty Sad
Posted by: badkitty
» The end is nigh - for America at any rate
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: greatferm on Aug 15, 2008 9:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My sig line has always been "Homo Sapiens; the only species ever to go extinct by choice" and I see no reason to change it. We're still on that course. I also hypothesize that the reason we have not been contacted by any other species in the universe is because technology is universally fatal.
We could grow up, but nobody wants to do that, that would be no fun at all. The answers are clear, very clear, and quite available, but we reject them.
Next up, the resource wars. Nobody can win, but everybody can die, not with a bang, but with a whimper, as we strangle in our own shit.
Meanwhile, enjoy the last golden age.
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» RE: Is any of this news ?
Posted by: Dboy
» I think I can answer that from an historical perspective
Posted by: PaulC
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Posted by: KB72 on Aug 15, 2008 9:06 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Like a kid with a messy room, it is a more productive effort to clean ones room with the idea that it should be done anyway, from a moralistic perspective, and with true involvement, rather than doing in fear of parental wrath.
what we imagine to come true has a bit of a way of occurring. I would rather imagine building a factory of automobiles driven by compressed air technology in my milltown village of people who would like jobs, rather than planning out stockpiles of hoarded foodstuffs. I would much rather plant apple trees to feed my neighbors than fertilize my useless lawn.
"It is the work that allows one to live, joyously, while in a profound state of grief."
Live not in the grief. undefine the ugly, embrace the beauty, and in so embrace the power of our consciousness, or God's power, if you will. Leave behind the green Meme, and look toward self evolution as a path onward.
We don't need to de-construct, we need to just change tracks. but, hard work is at hand, and we can find peace in the work. I am 100% sure of it.
Let's lay down our attachments to fear and distractions. Let's educate ourselves on self- evolution-world evolution and embrace the change.
There is no pre-ordination.
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» RE: self fufilling prophecy
Posted by: greatferm
» RE: self fufilling prophecy
Posted by: KB72
» The article agrees that we should "lay down our attachments to fear" in these words
Posted by: Beck
» RE: self fufilling prophesy
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Aug 15, 2008 9:07 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: HughScott on Aug 15, 2008 9:46 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Horrified that my 14-year-old grandson will experience the terrifying last days of Planet Earth.
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» RE: The article makes me feel happy and horrified at the same time.
Posted by: DaBear
» Feeling "pissed off", DaBear, is an understatement.
Posted by: HughScott
» I agree, KB72. Contentment will depend on community involvement. But I prefer corn over grain.
Posted by: HughScott
» RE: I agree, KB72. Contentment will depend on community involvement. But I prefer corn over grain.
Posted by: djnoll
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Posted by: DaBear on Aug 15, 2008 10:01 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One of them showed up here: Given humans' failure to predict the place we find ourselves today, I don't think that's such a radical statement.
Um.... I'm younger than Robert (I think... unless he's a GenXer too) but even I know that's a false statement. Jensen might not have been aware of half the shit going down right now but sonofabitch, batman, BUTTLOADS of writers and artists were making predictions about this shit decades ago. Where the hell was Robert? In his middle-class/owning class academic tower while others were working with their hands, heads and bodies.
Love the piece though. Good fun and a real argument against liberalism and conservatism. Progs are the ONLY people capable of finding solutions to current problems because they aren't afraid the throw out systems that no longer serve them while liberals and conservatives cling to their delusions.
As far as the doom and gloom thing... yeah, I know a lot of owning/middlings who have that funk. We working class people realize it's gonna be some serious shit and lots of us will be cockroach food (more of us at the bottom of the socio-economic heap than from the owning classers to be sure, some things never change). But the difference is, while the middling/owning classers who've awakened from their long privileged nap are depressed "blissfully joyful-depressed" or whatever the fuck their happy-happy class speak calls it at the moment, we at the bottom are faced with two elements of our everyday reality: 1) we will surely be shat upon even more than ever and we are fucking ripshit pissed off about that, not depressed--geezis, some privilege to be depressed or joyful, and 2) we'll do what we always do, be resourceful, dodge, duck, dive, and.... dodge. Chance will determine whether we go extinct or not. More likely nature will weed us back down to a manageable size and hopefully we working people will be among some of that remnant, maybe not. But it's a crapshoot. For us, that's not depressing or joyful, that's just the same old same old, that's our life.
In the meantime, it's back to the dump to scavenge what we can to live one more day on the earth.
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» He mentioned those who predicted this, and he needs another category of those still on the train
Posted by: Beck
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Posted by: evasta7 on Aug 15, 2008 10:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nice philosophical stuff, but it's too late for such vague nicities. As per his train analogy, it's time to rudely pull the emergency stop and jump off the train!
There is an underlying assumption in this piece that there's enough time for our awareness of these problems to develop enough over the next 'few' years for us to act.
Wrong.
We are out of time and the main issue is how much additional suffering are we going to add to the future and how much are we going to avoid.
We’ve already exceed global carrying capacity. We are now in “overshoot”. Global population is nearing 7 billion. Global carrying capacity is about 2 billion. (This assumes some level of social justice and a moderate, low by US standards, standard of living.) We will get to that 2 billion number the hard way (wars, famine, disease, and their accompanying losses of environmental quality, freedom, and social justice) OR the less hard way (immediately and drastically reducing our population voluntarily).
It’s also far too late for any “us” vs “them” arguments or any belief that national boundaries and national political/economic systems will do much to help anyone. This is a global issue with local and nation-state consequences. Immigration, for example, is a consequence of overpopulation, not a cause of it.
This is a slow motion crash that requires immediate action, a bit like trying to steer a supertanker by putting in consisten input over a multi year time frame, and that input is stop making babies. (And it was oil that allowed us to get this far out on a limb, and peak oil has already happened.)
For more on this I suggest http://www.paulchefurka.ca One of his best at this site is The Elephant In The Room.
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» RE: Too Late To Be So Vague
Posted by: KB72
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Posted by: VoteHope on Aug 15, 2008 10:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From our religious beginnings of omnipotent fantasies of possible reasons for what we can not control or understand to today’s fragmented, fractionated, appositional, and segmented cultural representations of our species that geographically map out the land masses of the planet, like dogs or other species urinating to stake out their territories, we continue our tradition of primitive primate behavior. We have no humility is the problem. Our identities are centered on our alliance with our inner view of ourselves that becomes superior to other people because of our association with our egocentric gods, who are really alter ego extensions and projections of our own identities, and as groups our countries or national identities. With humility we can and should see ourselves as animals, dangerous animals, that need to use our intelligence more than our hormone driven behaviors, as animals do, to compete, dominate, and control others, resources, and territory, for securing our own self centered interests and genes in the next generation, as all species do.
Only through intelligent separation from our primitive cultural traditions, such as religion, patriotism, and ethnocentrism will we know humility and realize we are animals and start changing our dominant characteristic: the most dangerous life form on the planet, to becoming the most intelligent and humble and progressive life form on the planet.
Until then our cultural traditions have conserved and preserved generation to generation our dysfunctional identities and cultures. This along with progressive technological prowess will only increase our chance for extinction, not progressive and positive cultural evolution that will only come from humility and a real world view of ourselves as one species. All our cultures, that include languages and religions are art forms, and should be seen as great novels or music is, not the basis for intolerance, bigotry, superiority, and the sheer stupidity of war and very possible extinction.
One World.
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» RE: Traditional Culture is Not Evolution
Posted by: Last Chance
» RE: Traditional Culture is Perpetual War
Posted by: VoteHope
» RE: Traditional Culture is Not Evolution
Posted by: Dartagnan
» Are we really?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Are we really? Yes, Even Children R Corrupted!
Posted by: VoteHope
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on Aug 15, 2008 11:10 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We, the dominate culture deemed these good poeple 'godless' and set about ruining this side of the World so we could be more like the Europe we left. A true failure in thinking.
Believing coal and oil was good for the society as a whole was another great lapse in thought,as was nuclear power,atom bombs and
George Bush...1 and 2.
We can pull our collective asses out of the fire by doing a few simple things. One being,stop wasteful production. In the creation of false needs to be met we've created a wasteful society and an over abundance of landfills. Moreover if we planted trees instead of cutting them down we'd give ourselves a more healthy air quality.
If we quit using the Great Lakes and the Oceans as a garbagwe dump we can restore the health of those systems.
We need to start seeing ourselves as 'part' of the Creation and not the apex of it. We need to recognize plants,animals,the waters and the air we breath is just as equal to us as our other humans are.
We just need to reintroduce Logic and Wisdom into all that we do. Knowlege tells us we can make an atom bomb,Wisdom tells us we're fools to use it. Logic tells us if we cut down the forests we'll have space for growth,Wisdom tells us doing so endangers the lives of all living things as well as destroying the very system that cleans and restores our air.
The Planet is ours to save or lose and it'sa far more important choice than who's going to be the next 'puppet president'.
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» There were never 100 million Indians here
Posted by: gellero1
» RE: There were never 100 million Indians here,wanna bet?
Posted by: jeffrey7
» RE: There were never 100 million Indians here
Posted by: phoolish
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Posted by: daw13 on Aug 15, 2008 11:40 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Does it matter if his words are wonderful? You're damned right it matters! The leadership needed must bubble up out of the people.
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» Voice of Reason.
Posted by: Last Chance
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Posted by: Frish on Aug 15, 2008 12:17 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My decision, made 45 years ago, not to have children, was not only prescient, but the right one.
Humans are wired wrong.
We cannot continue on Planet Earth, have just enough smarts to RUIN the planet, not enough to RUN it.
Oh well, live long and die off!
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Posted by: Sojourner on Aug 15, 2008 1:07 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I prefer Thoreau’s commentaries on “lives of quiet desperation” and Emerson’s on “silent melancholy” because those show that some things also do not change.
The least this author might do is refer his listeners back to the authentic sources. And maybe then he might admit that he really has nothing new to tell us.
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Posted by: leemiller38 on Aug 15, 2008 1:30 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From here on out I recommend to all concerned about a gloomy future to donate as much as possible to family planning organizations, such as Planned Parenthood, Engenderhealth, Pathfinder, Americans for UNFPA and organizations fighting to maintain or extend reproductive rights like NARAL and the Center for Reproductive Rights. Your money may prevent a lot of suffering, there will be enough already!
If you love children don't have any.
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» RE: Well Stated and interesting, but not much new here'
Posted by: elisevil
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Posted by: practical idealist on Aug 15, 2008 1:55 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The End Point And The End Game
Prologue:
With the rise of communist China, the advent of peak oil, and an unresolved and unprecedented economic crisis in the United States, it’s not hard to see that history is at turning point. Peak oil and a foundering economy are threatening challenges. But how should we perceive China? The majority of the world’s biggest multinationals have set up shop in China. The world’s capitalists have given China their blessing. So what’s to fear? Well, communists “openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling class tremble at a Communist revolution.” At the heart of Marxism is historical materialism. Here it is not ideas that determine history, but the inexorable push of economic determinism. So are we witnessing a revolution in China, a revolution in means? Do they intend to overthrow capitalism by beating them at their own game? Until they allow dissent, allow proponents of democracy to have their say, they should be perceived as such a threat.
And if so how do we meet that threat? For us, history is determined by our free will as we put forward the ideas that meet the challenges that a changing world presents. Yet up to this point we seem to be at loss. And neither Obama nor McCain, as they seek the White House, has presented a clear strategy either for economic recovery or ideological victory.
So, given the gravity of these issues it’s best that we consider the worst-case Marxist scenario and then consider the practical idealism that can resolve these challenges.
http://theendpoint.blogspot.com/
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Posted by: timbottoms on Aug 15, 2008 5:12 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Here's a simple "idea"
Posted by: SevenStarHand
» "...make that time meaningful." Doesn't matter what kind of meaning?
Posted by: Sojourner
» I think you missed the point, just a bit!
Posted by: Frish
» RE: Absolutely Terrible Article
Posted by: youtopia
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Posted by: nihilozero on Aug 15, 2008 6:39 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another Way of Knowing
&
Primitivism
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» RE: WOW. WOW!
Posted by: phoolish
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Posted by: nemonemini on Aug 15, 2008 6:46 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Darwinism and social crisis
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Posted by: SevenStarHand on Aug 15, 2008 7:09 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Perhaps this generation deserves to be "recycled." That would certainly force the remnant to think a little more deeply. This is a sad, sad, example of what I have feared the most. Far to many people speak well, yet barely think about what they say.
I am utterly disgusted with most of humanity and it's time to go away for a spell. Good luck...
Time to get a clue...
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Posted by: lufinn on Aug 16, 2008 7:09 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For predictable reasons involving human nature and the future inevitability of our cushy and unsustainable lifestyle collapsing, the realities of our society's energy crisis, amongst the myriad other crisis, are being side stepped continually while so-called alternatives that are NOT reality based are being touted as the nation's energy salvation.
It is uncomfortable, it is frightening, it is doom saying. It is happening as we read this.
Over the past hundred and fifty years, our segment of civilization has burned seven hundred years worth of petroleum fuel, at a continuously accelerating rate each year over the last. It is a resource that is almost gone in two aspects. First is the rate at which we consume it and hurl the byproducts into the environment, causing irreparable damage to the earth's climate system that KEEPS US ALIVE! Second is that the real crisis over oil will not begin when the last drop of oil is ceremoniously burned in some weed trimmer, but will occur when more that fifty percent of the populace can no longer afford energy or goods connected with the oil, causing terrible decisions over whether to feed our children or heat the house to keep them from freezing because we cannot afford both any longer. This winter, that will begin here.
It is gong to get worse. It is not going to get better. Yes, there will be tantalizing fluctuations calculated to wag the dog and give small hope while keeping righteous rioters from burning oil companies headquarters and lynching CEO's, but none will have any real substance. All they will serve will be to drive financial markets for profit and have no real effect over the long run on the steady price increases and dwindling supply.
The bad news, no disrespect to Al Gore, is that even if they miraculously installed some new magical carbon neutral alternative and everyone on earth stopped using oil tomorrow at noon, the system would still crash and the environment would take nearly a thousand years to even begin to approach recovery from the abuse we have heaped upon it. The damage that has been done is severe and cannot be listed fully without many pages, so I will mention only a few overwhelming and unsolvable problems.
Massive deforestation of rain and temperate forests, pollution and carbon saturation of our air, pollution of the oceans and over harvesting of them so severely it will lead to probable extinction of most of our food species, and our overpopulation to the point that any major crisis in environment will cause catastrophic loss of human life.
The really bad news is that there are currently NO real alternatives that are workable on the scale necessary to substitute for oil, which Robert has mentioned here.
Every alternative suggested so far has one or more of several problems preventing it from feasibility. The largest of these is that most are reliant upon petroleum for production of a key component and therefore cannot be a real alternative. Pie in the sky energy theory is unworkable.
Solar is out other than small scale home projects for the wealthy. The cells, converters and batteries require mining of elements and high energy production costs, as well as a high reliance upon petroleum products in installation and construction. Ever see a wooden solar panel?
Ethanol is off the list because the large crop sizes are driven completely by petroleum based fertilizers, transportation and processing equipment, and the additional fact that all the ethanol producing plants here are coal powered.
continued next post
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Posted by: lufinn on Aug 16, 2008 7:13 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Conservation is a good idea, but oil is still going to run out, period. The gas tank is only so big and we are looking at the bottom.
Nuclear is right out. There is no safe method of storing the most hazardous waste products in existence. Since the elements involved are also quite rare, (besides involving petroleum reliant mining processes to acquire them) building more dangerous nuke plants is not a sane option unless you work for the industry, and in that case they imagine it is more safe than cotton candy.
Wind power is based upon finely tooled metal machinery, (mining the ore is petroleum reliant, remember?) it is expensive, complicated, and would need upkeep such as replacement parts made with that same oil processed metals. Even wires used to transmit electricity are petroleum dependent when you consider the plastics for insulation and that fact there are no solar powered metal smelting operations out there.
Examples are continually thrown at us from very small experiments that seem positively miraculous until taken to a scale required to feasibly supply a large city, not to mention a regional or national grid.
At this point, some clever individual will usually try to insert the old republican oil baron talking point about never underestimating the power of human ingenuity, and that every time mankind has confronted this or some similar problem in history, someone invented something that saved us all. This person has a reality based upon Hollywood, not the real world. There is a simple reality check here. I ask that person to name a single event in history that is similar to this type or level of crisis. Surprise! There has NEVER been a problem like this in human history, period. This is NOT a movie where the actor paid to play the clever good guy inventor comes up with the simple, cheap method of producing unlimited clean energy in a tea cup at the last second, saving mankind and our precious American way of life.
Placing all your faith upon a technology that does not yet exist and at this point is not even on the remote horizon is stupid, not ignorant.
We had all better face the unpleasant and grim realities that the following will happen soon, but there is no definitive, pinpointed date:
A- We are soon to suffer a catastrophic loss of our energy and food production and distribution systems.
B- we are about suffering the collapse of our economic system.
C- We are about to lose our wealthy status on the world.
D- We are about to have a massive reduction in our lifestyle, probably a set back to about the early 1800's technologically speaking.
E- We will probably see a large loss of life resulting from the above.
Now is the time to get REAL and begin gardening, preserving food, finding alternative heating and cooking resources on small scales for your family's survival over the next decades or soon the materials to do so will be past acquiring after the system's collapse.
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» RE: continued
Posted by: timbottoms
» RE: continued
Posted by: lufinn
» RE: continued
Posted by: timbottoms
» RE: continued
Posted by: timbottoms
» RE: continued
Posted by: timbottoms
» RE: carbon neutral
Posted by: lufinn
» RE: carbon neutral
Posted by: timbottoms
» RE: carbon neutral
Posted by: lufinn
» luffin you are wrong
Posted by: hopeforthefuture
» RE: luffin you are wrong
Posted by: hopeforthefuture
» RE: luffin you are wrong
Posted by: hopeforthefuture
» To timbottoms please post some links
Posted by: hopeforthefuture
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Daniel35 on Aug 16, 2008 7:52 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In reality, each and every one of us are responsible for this crash, and could make some effort to avoid it. Unknown factors could work in our favor also, so maybe our actions, along with others', would be enough to make a big difference. The passengers represent the total momentum of this train. The biospheric system is trying reduce the curve in the track, to maintain equilibrium ("Gaia theory"), but it's not prepared for our speed and momentum. Considering the positive feedback effects of global warming, each of us is actually leaning on the accelerator pedal.
Each of us 'exhales' CO2 in many different ways, some in more ways and greater amounts than others. If we see the coming crash as the end of everything we hold dear, any of us who can't convince at least ourselves that our actions have a net result of reducing the odds of a crash should get off the train, completely off, not just in the baggage car.
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Posted by: lufinn on Aug 16, 2008 12:44 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we were all on a shrinking iceberg with people sliding off the sides as it shrank, it might be a good visual.
The iceberg lasted longer than the Titanic, though, and there is a better analogy.
You are on the Titanic, just after the impact, and the ship is OBVIOUSLY sinking except to those most deluded and deepest in denial. You are in the north Atlantic, in winter, the ship will be submerged in a couple hours, in the frigid water you will only survive minutes, and the closest help is too far away to have any effect on the outcome. Oh, yeah, and there are way too few life boats for everyone.
You see a group of officers passing the captain's hat, each ducking responsibility by passing it to the next and congratulating him on his promotion. (It didn't matter who the captain was after the impact, and it doesn't matter who the president is after this election.)
You stop a passenger and ask them to help you with the last lifeboat, but he tells you one of the officers informed him the crew is downstairs with cases of bubblegum and they are chewing up a storm, and that the hole will be patched in no time at all and the ship will reach NY sooner than anticipated. (The various parts of out government continue to tell us everything is just fine, don't worry, there is no such thing as global warming, and there is lots of oil for years to come.)
You stop another passenger, and she discounts your idea entirely while standing in her expensive ball gown, arguing that the she has been assured you are in no danger, its cold down there in a lifeboat, and there probably isn't any waiting staff to serve her there anyway.
(I don't even want to hear a word about having to unwillingly change to a lower lifestyle.)
You give up on the misinformed masses and after gathering blankets, some food and drink, and some flare pistols, you begin lowering the last lifeboat with anyone of like mind.
It is now moot who or what caused this to be happening, it is now simply a matter of surviving what will be coming down the pike, and not decades from now, actually much sooner.
Brace yourselves.
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» RE: we're on the Titanic
Posted by: phoolish
» RE: we're on the Titanic
Posted by: lufinn
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Posted by: Romans1 on Aug 16, 2008 5:15 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Population leveling off
Posted by: timbottoms
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Posted by: Ignatz deFyre on Aug 18, 2008 10:31 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While in the past wars and human crises were rooted in economic causes, dreams of empire, and natural disasters, today these events are contrived and exploited for economic gain. We are seeing this right now in resource wars, precipitation of food, drug and health crises, and profiteering from natural disaters. Capitalism takes everything, absolutely everything, and tries to monetize it.
We are witnessing the natural consequences of society trying to disembed itself from the parasite that is capitalism. What system will replace it, I don't know. But the withdrawal is starting to look pretty painful.
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Posted by: kyhardhead on Aug 22, 2008 1:32 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But that's OK, because the changes predicted or alluded to are coming, willy-nilly, whether we talk about them or not. And all and none of the talk will slow down the coming, nor change it in any meaningful way. This Brobdingnagian cruise ship we're on here in la-la land has been going full steam ahead now for decades, and we've only just begun, on the fringes, to wonder where it's headed. Very few have a sense of how much lead time it takes to make a turn on this thing; and the turn called for isn't just a gentle tack, but an all-out full reverse.
What's happening is that we're starting to come down from our millennial trip, but the cow is way on down the road now, plumb into the next county. The best we can hope for at this point is that some poor lost goat will come wandering through; more likely, we'll have to learn to do without our milk and butter. It's too late to do anything else.
If you got kids, don't waste your time and energy working to send them through college; college is going to be about as useful as the money you supposedly could earn by going there. Teach 'em how to hunt, and fish, and butcher meat, and grow gardens, and build things; teach 'em a trade or how to fix things with their hands. Those are the "skills" that will keep them alive and get them ahead in the new world a-comin'.
And if you believe in those kinds of things, say a little prayer for the rest and peace of Jimmy Carter, the only truly decent man to hold high office in this country, and who tried to tell us, 30 years ago, when it might have made a difference, what was coming.
And you ask why I don't live here -
Honey, how come you don't move?
- R. Zimmerman
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