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Massive Economic Disaster Seems Possible -- Will Survivalists Get the Last Laugh?

By Scott Thill, AlterNet. Posted July 26, 2008.


With multiple crises on the horizon, survivalist views don't seem as marginal as they did before.

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They used to be paranoid preparation nuts who built bomb shelters for a place to duck and cover during nuclear dustups with communist heathens, but their tangled roots go back to the Great Depression for a reason. If you want to get sociological about it, survivalism started out as a response to economic catastrophe. And now, with a cratering stock market, a housing meltdown that has devalued everything in sight, and skyrocketing prices for food, gas and pretty much everything else, survivalists are preparing for -- and are prepared for -- the rerun. In fact, they may be the only people in America feeling good about the prospects of a major crash.

And the interesting thing about the once-fringe movement at this moment in history is that survivalism has now gone green -- at least in theory.

From peak oil and food crises all the way to catastrophic payback from that bitch Mother Earth, there are more reasons to hide than ever. Conventional society as we know it is already undergoing some disastrous transformations. Ask anyone ducking fires in California, floods in the Midwest or bullets in Baghdad. Maybe it didn't make sense to run for the hills, stockpile water and food, grow your own vegetables and drugs, or unplug from consumerism back when America's budget surplus still existed, its armies weren't burning up all the nation's revenue and its infrastructure wasn't being outsourced to a globalized work force.

But those days are gone, daddy, gone.

What's coming up is weirder. Author, social critic and overall hilarious dude James Kunstler tackled that weirdness, otherwise known as an incoming post-oil dystopia, in his recent novel, World Made by Hand, which has since become one of a handful of survivalist classics. And as Kunstler sees it, whether you are talking about gun nuts or green pioneers, at least you are talking.

"At least they're aware that we've entered the early innings of what could easily become a very disruptive period of our history," the Clusterfuck Nation columnist explains. "Most of them are responding constructively rather than just defensively. They're much more interested in gardening and animal husbandry than firearms."

Not that the gun nuts have gone away. Their ranks have just diversified.

"The gun nuts have been on the scene longer than the peak oil argument has been in play," he adds. "They were initially preoccupied with Big Government and its accompanying narrative fantasy of fascist oppression, which is why they adopted a fascist tone themselves. But peak-oil survivalists are different from the Ruby Ridge generation. They don't think that a bolt-hole in the woods is a very promising strategy. We have no idea at this point what the level of social cohesion or disorder may be, but if the rural areas, especially the agricultural centers, become too lawless for farming, then we'll be in pretty severe trouble because there will be nothing for us to eat."

That's not on the to-do list of author and SurvivalBlog owner James Rawles, who has been getting asked more and more questions by a mainstream press finally waking to the consequences of disaster capitalism, climate crisis and the hyperreal dream of bottomless consumption. He has fielded questions from the New York Times, and he has taken an online beating from conscientious pubs like Grist, but he hasn't gone Hollywood. The times, which are a-changin', have caught up to him.

"There is greater interest in preparedness these days because the fragility of our economy, lengthening chains of supply and the complexity of the technological infrastructure have become apparent to a broader cross section of the populace," Rawles wrote to me via e-mail (but only after asking how many unique monthly visitors AlterNet commanded). "All parties concerned may not realize it, but the left-of-center greens calling for local economies and encouraging farmers markets have a tremendous amount in common with John Birchers decrying globalist bankers and gun owners complaining about their constitutional rights. At the core, for all of them, is the recognition that big, entrenched, centralized power structures are not the answer. They are, in fact, the problem."

Fair enough. But that broad brush fails to recognize the complexities of the very community it is purporting to try to establish. Indeed, difference is what survivalists seem to be running from, whether it is historically the difference between blacks and whites, secularists and true believers, or simply the haves and have-nots. It is that latter crowd that the survivalists seem most worried about. Their separation from society at large is arguably a retreat from community rather than a striving toward it.

"I'd say that survivalism is indeed a celebration of community," Rawles asserts. "It is the embodiment of America's traditional can-do spirit of self-reliance that settled the frontier."

But that's also a generalization, especially when one considers that the word "settled" is a coded reduction for a "near-genocidal wipeout of the frontier's native populations," most if not all of whom were perfecting a survivalist ethic by maximizing their skill sets and living in symbiosis with the land that provided them what they needed in food, tools and medicine. In fact, those settlements would have been hard-pressed to exist without what Rawles earlier described as a "centralized power structure," known as the expansionist United States government and its military, paving the road forward. Each self-reliant mythology carries within it grains of complicity in the community at large, which is a fancy way of saying there's nowhere to run, baby, nowhere to hide.

This is especially true today in our hyperreal, hyperconsuming 21st century, where survivalism has become more of a gadget fantasy than an earnest grasp for community.

"It seems a natural human impulse that we are hard-wired to follow as circumstances require," Kunstler says, "although it is constrained by social and cultural conditioning. To some degree, in our consumer culture, survivalism is related to the gear fetishism you see in popular magazines that purport to be about sporting adventures, but are really about acquiring snazzy equipment. America in 2008 has become a cartoon culture of Hollywood violence that promotes grandiose power fantasies of hyper-individualism and vigilante justice. Add guns and economic hardship, and spice it up with ethnic grievances, and the recipe is not very appetizing."

This future cultural, environmental and geopolitical miasma is where the survivalist and the mainstream converge in agreement. Both camps, pardon the pun, are convinced that we're screwed down the road.

"The next Great Depression will be a tremendous leveler," Rawles prophesies. "If anything, life in the 22nd century will more closely resemble the 19th century than the 20th century. Sadly, the 21st century will probably be remembered as the time of the Great Die-Off."

"I don't consider it a total wipeout," Kunstler counters. "It's a very big change, but people are resilient and resourceful. Look, imagine if you were a person who had survived the Second World War in Europe, and you were walking around Berlin in the spring of 1946, a year after the end of the war. A once-magnificent city has been reduced to rubble. Your culture is lying in ashes. Yet, people pick up and rebuild."

That is, if they're sticking together. If they're scattered and fending for themselves, and taking armed retreat defense tips from SurvivalBlog, that makes rebuilding a bit more complicated. Which, in the end, is where survivalism is most ambiguous. Is it a growing population of forward-looking realists who are smartly preparing for the die-off brought on by climate crisis and economic collapse, so they can pick up themselves and their people, and rebuild with that "can-do" spirit, as Rawles calls it? Or are they simply gadget-fascinated fundamentalists afraid of change and challenge, so afraid that they'd rather hide and hoard than join the fight?

The jury is still out. But, according to Rawles, it will soon have its diversity mirrored by survivalism's changing demographic.

"I think that in the next couple of decades," he explains, "we will witness the formation of some remarkable intentional communities that will feature some unlikely bedfellows: anarchists and Ayn Rand readers, Mennonites and gun enthusiasts, Luddites and techno-geeks, fundamentalist Christians and Gaia worshippers, tree huggers and horse wranglers. We welcome them all. Because the threats are clearly manifold: peak oil, derivatives meltdowns, pandemics, food shortages, market collapses, terrorism, state-sponsored global war and more. In a situation this precarious, I believe that it is remarkably naive to think that mere geographical isolation will be sufficient to shelter communities from the predation of evildoers."

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See more stories tagged with: global warming, climate change, food crisis, peek oil, survivalists

Scott Thill runs the online mag Morphizm.com. His writing has appeared on Salon, XLR8R, All Music Guide, Wired and others.

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The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ...
Posted by: mmckinl on Jul 26, 2008 12:55 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Read Naomi Klein on the new companies set up to whisk the very rich by helicopter and private jet to compounds where they can live quite well for years during the "troubles". Even the Waltons of WalMart have a survival compound with everything they need for years.

The Powers that Be have known that there would be these oncoming troubles, they have been analyzed and forecast by the intelligence agencies. The peak oil phenomena was clearly demonstrated in America in 1970 as supply diminished. Was it an accident that the Bankruptcy Act was passed in 2005 or that the privately owned and operated Federal Reserve let the banks go wild for hundreds of billions in short term profits? The after effects of world peak oil are well known to those in the know and they have prepared and the picture isn't pretty. They saw this coming and planned accordingly, virtual debtors prison for tens of millions from mortgage debt and hundreds of billions for those in the know to buy into a corporate survival company or build a compound of their own.

Is there a way out of this mess? Yes, but it entails real taxation of the rich and the elimination of the fractional reserve banking system. Two things they are not about to let happen.

They would rather let the situation dictate war and starvation so that their power base can be preserved to dominate the landscape once the violence and chaos subside. The laws are all in place to bring on a police state. Fisa for complete immunity for surveillance and arrest without cause. Rubber bullets, tasers, tear gas and "pain beam vehicles" to answer crowds.

Look for mass starvation and civil war abroad and malnutrition, homelessness and unemployment at home ...

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» Uh, seen our Prezdint lately? Posted by: pangolin
» Your tinfoil hat is ready Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: You Should Look Up Bohemian Grove Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: Your thinking hat is ready Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ... Posted by: scienceisnotconsensus
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ... Posted by: scienceisnotconsensus
» Correction: second paragraph Posted by: scienceisnotconsensus
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ... Posted by: scienceisnotconsensus
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ... Posted by: scienceisnotconsensus
» Blackwater to the rescue Posted by: carbon-based
» RICH IS RELATIVE Posted by: grammasanity
Elijah
Posted by: Elijah on Jul 26, 2008 4:41 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are reaping what we have sown!!....the big banking elite have stolen this country and we will pay by a reduced standard of living..it could get real bad...can you imagine an america which has to live only on what it produces??....which is very little.....time to pay the national credit card which the costs of these immoral wars have been put on....maybe time to get some guns and seeds and head for the hills...it got very ugly in 1979 in L.A. during the gas crunch then....only a glimpse at what we are in store for.....elijah

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» Your kidding, right??? Posted by: Prophit
even the rich can have second thoughts...
Posted by: Suzon on Jul 26, 2008 4:42 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Apparently the powers that be considered a military coup when Labour's Harold Wilson was prime minister and posing a threat to the privileges enjoyed by that Vatican-like entity, the independent and self-regulating City of London.

Though Wilson's resignation has never been explained (blackmail? threats?), the coup did not take place.

One of the drawbacks to living a bunker is the lack of social opportunities. The point of having diamonds is to have one's wife wear them in public. I suppose that touring opera companies could make a circuit of the various bolt holes, but somehow it wouldn't be the same.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

The Amish
Posted by: bthespoon on Jul 26, 2008 4:43 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
..will be just fine too.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: The Amish Posted by: kegbot1
» RE: The Amish Posted by: hagwind
» Until, that is... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Until, that is... Posted by: oregoncharles
» Just been super busy... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Until, that is . . . Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Until, that is . . . Posted by: Lauren
» Yes, the Amish will still thrive Posted by: Democratic Socialist
» The Amish depend on us Posted by: gellero1
» Uhm... you do realize... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
Kathy McMahon
Posted by: Peak Shrink on Jul 26, 2008 5:36 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Then there are the emotional reactions to learning about the state of the world affairs. I get letters every day, at Peak Oil Blues from people all over the world, who are shocked, depressed, hopeless, and overwhelmed not only by the future they see coming, but also by the complete lack of serious discussion by the "mainstream" media or politicians.

The solutions will be myriad, local, and "individual" only in the same way that rhizomes grow.

You are right, Scott, that there is nowhere to run and hide. It isn't enough to just talk about it, though, we need to shut off our TV's (and computers) and actually do the hard work of developing trust between neighbors. And you are also right: we can't buy our way out of it with gizmos either. We actually have to learn to do things differently, basic things our grandparents took for granted.

It is remarkable that life tasks that used to be considered "normal," like putting up food for the winter, are now seen as a part of some bizarre cult.

I see a lot of people frozen and fearing the worst, like dieoff. When they actually start to do the pragmatic, hassle-filled planning that is required, the depression seems to lift, even if the awareness of what's possible doesn't. The future won't be very kind to those who said "I knew I should have done something constructive, but I just didn't have it in me to know where to start." As a psychologist, speaking to people just like this, blown away by their awareness of what's coming, I say "Start anywhere, just get moving." Even most of whom are planning to hold up in their bunkers will come to realize that it's an unworkable plan. We need each other, regardless of how annoying we find one another. We'll also find, as Rawles has said, a fascinating bunch of bedfellows, and recognize that, instead of a left-right line of "conservatives" and "progressives" we'll find more of a circle of opinions, none of which will be more important than the activities we'll all engage in together.

I really liked hearing from both Jim's. Thanks for launching this discussion on this wonderful site.

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» RE: Kathy McMahon Posted by: kegbot1
» Exactly... how many even have... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Kathy McMahon Posted by: Kafwood
» RE: Kathy McMahon Posted by: snorkeeeee
» RE: Kathy McMahon Posted by: Lauren
» Peak oil is bogus. Posted by: Prophit
All over the map
Posted by: kegbot1 on Jul 26, 2008 5:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think this article takes too much of a shotgun approach to the situation and is very superficial. Talking to Kunstler is always good but he has several of his own prejudices (i.e. "gun nuts") and also is a unconditional supporter of whatever Israel does. That said, he's been in the forefront of the peak oil/new urbanist movement and has many decent insights.

It is too difficult with the space afforded this piece to really get a handle on the situation. I would have also talked to Alex Jones (largest radio audience among survivalists) as well.

I think there are as many explanations and scenarios as to what may happen as people's imaginations can muster.

If we assume that Very Bad Things are going to happen, then the biggest wildcard will be the extent to which the Federal government can maintain control over the country. I do feel our only hope is if they lose control over most of the country - then local communities and perhaps even whole states can work for local solutions. In any case, it won't be pretty and there will be monumental difficulties to overcome but I'd rather have a nation of confederations working cooperatively than top down fascism which cares little for average people.

The second biggest factor to me is the ability of the American mind to wrap itself around the shocks that are coming. I do not foresee any reason for optimism here. I think people will be rendered mentally and psychologically helpless before they are materially helpless.

This makes my first two points important in tandem - a population that has been conditioned to be willfully helpless is going to run full speed into the arms of their government.

Which leads to factor three - localized communities could band together under a cooperative/survivalist ethic but be demonized by a Federal government which will try to crush those movements and bring them to heel with the support of the people who will be told the 'cooperatives' are hoarding food and supplies meant for the broader populations.

Starvation does strange things to otherwise normal people.

If people in this country really knew what was behind all of this they would not be so anxious to place their faith in their government. But we haven't been taught to have faith in ourselves.

Which leads to the other problem -- we have not been conditioned to work cooperatively with each other. Our whole national ethic is 'every person for themselves' and 'you're on your own.' In the age of the lawsuit and the crime show, we have been condition to have a deep and abiding fear and mistrust of our fellow citizens. This, above all, does not bode well for our future under such economic, political and social strains.

Like Marley's ghost if you're looking for comforting words, I sadly have none to give.

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» RE: All over the map Posted by: harryf200
» RE: All over the map Posted by: Dboy
» RE: All over the map Posted by: dirtycrumbs
» RE: All over the map Posted by: Dboy
» RE: All over the map Posted by: Lauren
» RE: All over the map Posted by: kegbot1
» RE: All over the map Posted by: Dboy
Where Have All The Preparedness Expos Gone?
Posted by: Lily H. on Jul 26, 2008 6:11 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Great topic and link to Kathy McMahon's website and
others! As a conscientious and curious citizen, I used
to attend my area's yearly Preparedness Expos held
each year at my local fairgrounds. Admittedly, I was
of two minds about these groups - first, the gun nuts
and anti-government types were in force, and second,
the back-to-the-landers were attractive what with all
their ingenious ideas to sustain oneself off the grid.

While strolling through the anti-gov't sections, I
wondered "Are ANY of these folks on the level or are
they ALL crazy?" It was at one of these events that
I first saw a blueprint of the supposed "detention
camps" being set up by the military which, naturally,
got the wheels turning, so to speak.

Oddly enough, soon after my last visit to this event,
they suddenly stopped appearing in my area, and I
phoned to inquire if they would be returning..
I was told they would not. Even this turn set me to
query, "Hmmm...why would the Expos suddenly STOP
coming to my area? Could there possibly be a reason
for those in power to influence various venues to
cease leasing to those involved in such?" Interesting
point to consider -- if anyone else here has noticed
a sudden drop-off in Preparedness Expos, please reply.

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dutchfarm
Posted by: dutchfarm on Jul 26, 2008 6:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Google rex 84, it seems not many people are aware of this government program, instituted during Ronald Raygun's administration, so the idea that the mega rich were aware of the coming problems may be true.

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» RE: dutchfarm Posted by: Dboy
» RE: REX 84 Posted by: Lauren
Is the new pornography or what?
Posted by: hagwind on Jul 26, 2008 6:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the years following 9/11 lots of people got off on apocalyptic visions of terrorist strikes on U.S. infrastructure, etc., etc. (Those of us who realized that U.S. infrastructure was collapsing with no outside help yawned and went on to something else.) In previous decades, the apocalypse was brought on by nuclear war or meltdown, but the titillation factor was there. Amazing, isn't it, how easy it is to believe that even if 99.99% of the world's population is blown away, you and I will be among the 0.01% left standing?

Just in case anyone was wondering why the Old Testament is still popular after all these years . . .

P.S. The Parable of the Sower and The Parable of the Talents, by the late Octavia Butler, hold up very well if you're looking for plausible visions of people improvising solutions to the collapse of U.S. society (West Coast division).

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» What I meant was... Posted by: Bbear41
You’ll Be Wishing Y’all Lived in a Southern Lilly White Suburb.
Posted by: European American on Jul 26, 2008 6:27 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Homogeneity will be the name of the game. As we have seen in the tight knit Asian cultures, communities will come together if their survival depends on it. Fences could be torn down to produce multiple ¼ acre farms.

What do you think will happen to the section 8 crowd? Middle America already ignores the poor. Do you think the subdivision turned co opt farm will warmly receive browns looking for yet another hand out? Do you know how owns the majority of legal firearms? White college educated males.

The reckoning is nigh.

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» Methinks I’ll also farm Cannabis… Posted by: European American
» BTW, Guns are food. Posted by: European American
» Guns are metal, not food. Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Guns are metal, not food. Posted by: European American
The answer lies in trust
Posted by: djnoll on Jul 26, 2008 6:28 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am just finishing a paper on how to develop sustainable community governance through changing the environment in which government must work through leadership style and civic engagement. What has become predominant through out all the research is that trust is the key factor in accomplishing anything. One of the posters here stated that we should turn off our TVs and computers and get to know our neighbors. Truer words were never said. In our home communities we need to start NOW to create neighborhood alliances and groups to change the way government addresses problems. WE need to take back control of our government, and change the way that government makes decisions. But we can only do that if we work together and genuinely trust each other.

I am a survivalist in the sense that for over 15 years now I have warned people of the Perfect Storm that was coming - economic collapse, climate change, and an aging population. We are now facing all three, and this is just the beginning. Many of those who have the skills to teach us how to think, to grow healthy real food, build homes that last for years, and to create localized economies of small sustainable businesses are dying. They are not the baby boomers, they are our parents. Our children know that we need to change - just watch and listen to the crowds at WALL-E. Children are closer to nature and they understand, but they do not have the skills we need. They say that only the elderly and children fight in revolutions, so maybe for this revolution it is time for the rest of us to step up to the plate. It is time to give up manicured lawns in favor of vegetable gardens and orchards; cars for public transportation or walking; neighborhood gatherings instead of TV and a pizza. It is time to stop pursuing the all mighty dollar and the next great toy, and start paying off our debt and saving our money under the mattress. But mostly why not work with your neighbors to build a sense of neighborhood and community based on trusting each other as a way of learning to work together to solve some of the problems now before it becomes a crisis in your town.

Survival is now and always has been a collective effort, something many of us have forsaken for the sake of modern interests. We need to return to what our grandparents knew - without each other, we have nothing, and no reason to survive. Meet your neighbors, talk about the things happening in your communities, and talk about how you want make changes, then organize, pick a good leader that everyone trusts and who trusts everyone to do their best, and then work to make sure that your towns and cities are self-sufficient and self-sustaining. It can be done, it must be done, because the Perfect Storm is starting and we have very little time left to change before it hits us full force.

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» RE: The answer lies in trust Posted by: edgeofnowhere
Grasshopper or Ant?
Posted by: MSharp on Jul 26, 2008 6:31 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are many people in The U.S.
who are dependent on malls and big box
stores such as Wal-Mart and Best Buy.

Because they were
not taught real survival skills
in high school or college, the
chance of them surviving without
these resources are very slim.

There will be many grasshoppers
and very few ants.

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» RE: Grasshopper or Ant? Posted by: Lauren
The False God GREED brought us here, What will save us?
Posted by: williameon on Jul 26, 2008 6:40 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let them all go to their compounds and rot.
Let them live alone in
The Hell they have created.
Pod people insulated from the rest of the World
I envision something else.
FREEDOM,
Choice!

The Green Revolution and a Renaissance

Upgrade the Bill of Rights to include these new unalienable Human Rights:
The Right to:
Clean Air
Pure Water
Health Care
A living wage
Organic locally grown Foods
Green: Energy, Transportation, Homes, Schools and Shopping.
Efficiency instead of extravagance
Recyclable instead of wasteful.
A Totally locally owned and operated Media.

Let's Reaffirm our commitment to these positive progressive creative ideals:
Peace, Patience, Cooperation, Brotherly Love, Compassion, Healing and Helpfulness.

We are here for a reason.
Now is our Time!
This is the task.
These are the tools.
Start where you are and use them.
Let’s take a few baby steps together
Towards a brighter, cleaner tomorrow.
Peace, Survival, Health and Prosperity for ALL!

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» Here's some more rights. Posted by: gellero1
» RE: Here's some more rights. Posted by: maxpayne
» Ah, willy - if only. Posted by: thekidde
Catastrophe Zeitgeist Persists
Posted by: drricklippin on Jul 26, 2008 7:09 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wrote below in 2006 but believe this catastrophe zeitgeist still exists today.

Three questions?

-What risks are the most real in your own opinion?
-How likely is it that the risk(s) you choose are indeed catastrophic?
-When will the catastrophe become manifest?

Thanks for any input

Rick Lippin
ralippin@aol.com

The Perception of Risk is Tricky Business.

There seems to be a "catastrophe zeitgeist" going through the culture. Then you have the self destruction vs imposed by organized enemy debate or unstable loner individual act debate

-Economic collapse? (If China calls in its huge debt we have to them?)

-Environmental collapse? (Is Al Gore right?)

-Biblical Prophecy of last days from some religious fundamentalists

-Bio-agent catastrophe? (Pandemic flu-natural or anthrax-weaponized by enemy)

-Chemical? (self generated environmental poisoning vs enemy chemical agent attack)

-Nuclear bomb or other radiologic event? (dirty or suitcase bomb)

-Explosive devices? (Non- radiologic bombs)

-others?

Right now with North Korea going nuclear and possibly Iran and the ease of constructing a small nuclear device the betting is on some sort radiologic event.

But within 6 months the focus may change?

With limited resources where do we put our training and prep dollars? It seems we sure were caught blind by 9/11 and Katrina? One enemy imposed -the other natural. Very real catastrophes -not hypothetical.

Dr. Rick Lippin

October 2006

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» RE: Catastrophe Zeitgeist Persists Posted by: Old Skeptic
President< Peak Oil Associates International
Posted by: cjwirth on Jul 26, 2008 7:12 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Event the survivalists will have trouble surviving this catastrophe:

According to energy investment banker Matthew Simmons, global oil production is now declining, from 85 million barrels per day to 60 million barrels per day by 2015. During the same time demand will increase 14%.

This is like a 45% drop in 7 years. No one can reverse this trend, nor can we conserve our way out of this catastrophe. Because the demand for oil is so high, it will always be higher than production; thus the depletion rate will continue until all recoverable oil is extracted.

Alternatives will not even begin to fill the gap. And most alternatives yield electric power, but we need liquid fuels for tractors/combines, 18 wheel trucks, trains, ships, and mining equipment.

We are facing the collapse of the highways that depend on diesel trucks for maintenance of bridges, cleaning culverts to avoid road washouts, snow plowing, roadbed and surface repair. When the highways fail, so will the power grid, as highways carry the parts, transformers, steel for pylons, and high tension cables, all from far away. With the highways out, there will be no food coming in from "outside," and without the power grid virtually nothing works, including home heating, pumping of gasoline and diesel, airports, communications, and automated systems.

This is documented in a free 48 page report that can be downloaded, website posted, distributed, and emailed: http://www.peakoilassociates.com/POAnalysis.html

I used to live in NH, but moved to a safer place. Anyone interested in relocating to a nice, pretty, sustainable area, good climate with much rain and good soil?

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Read Octavia Butler's "Parable of the Sower."
Posted by: vssmith on Jul 26, 2008 7:19 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
She also has a sequel called "Parable of the Talents." It is 2025 and the world has gone to hell--Global Warming etc. Wild gangs roam the streets, a religious madman takes over as president and people fear packs of wild dogs. A great read.

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they are right
Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Jul 26, 2008 7:30 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No doubt about it. Being prepared is key. I stopped keeping money in the bank several months ago. Stock up on food and supplies. Become independent not having to rely on others.

JT
Ultimate Anonymity

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Wanna Hear the Painful Truth?
Posted by: DivadNhoj on Jul 26, 2008 7:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We're one Wall Street crash away from becoming a Third World country. We brought this upon ourselves thinking capitalism and free markets are the way to go.

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» We ARE a third world country. Posted by: pangolin
Semper preparatus
Posted by: edgeofnowhere on Jul 26, 2008 7:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is a pretty flip article about something that is very serious and very likely to happen soon. I grew up in a farming/hunting/camping family, so I am pretty well prepared to feed and house myself and family, but I have never experienced social chaos which promises to be a feature of the coming economic collapse. Fact: the dollar is tanking and there is nothing to stop it from going to zero, which is what it is worth. I've always had emergency supplies "just in case", but this is the first time I have ever laid in serious amounts and pulled all my cash out of the bank and converted to gold and silver. The neighbors and community are starting to seriously discuss just what the hell we're going to do if this really happens. NO ONE knows how it will come down, but economic upheaval is always painful. Be ready.

Have enough basic food for 6 months (rice, beans, canned tomatoes, cooking oil, tuna, spices, coffee, salt for curing, sugar and honey, t-paper, booze etc. Have a wood stove for heat and/or cooking just in case there is no conventional fuel. Keep at least a good .22 with a scope and plenty of ammo, and a 12 ga. Grow a garden and if you have any room, you might consider raising rabbits (my favorite), chickens or goats. If you are living in the city, good luck to you.

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» RE: Semper preparatus Posted by: Dboy
Getcher maps here, folks!
Posted by: Philip Newton on Jul 26, 2008 7:37 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My ex and her wingnut spouse were all settled in for (remember?) Y2K. She told my kids they were welcome in their compound. It was clear that Dad would be left to die with the rest of the pinkos. (They didn't consider that I know where they live, or, maybe they did! In any event, it gave rise to my fictional side business of selling guns and maps to where the survivalists are hiding.)

Of course, now their MREs and bottled water are stale and they have a whopping credit card balance. (No idea if it's from buying all that stuff or not, but they are "stuff" people.)

I also feel a coming series of crises, and of course we are in one now, and it's getting worse. These people are precisely, 180 degrees wrong, for the reasons the author states. We will exist by coming together, not flying apart, as thousands of isolated, miserable and frightened survivalists would tell you -- if they could admit their grave errors and come outta their bunkers.

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» Know who's worthless? Posted by: xi_people
» RE: Getcher maps here, folks! Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: Getcher maps here, folks! Posted by: camanokat
Robert Heinlein wrote...
Posted by: Bbear41 on Jul 26, 2008 7:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...A story called 'The Year of the Jackpot,' in which a student of historical cycles noticed that almost all the cycles were peaking in one particular year. In the story, after a lot of weirdness, the sun went nova. I don't expect a nova, but the rest of it seems to be going down as predicted, and that's without paying any attention to the Maya 2012 Doomsday.

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» Yes, I realize... Posted by: Bbear41
» RE: obert Heinlein wrote... Posted by: ranchero42
» RE: obert Heinlein wrote... Posted by: Lauren
We're screwed!
Posted by: HughScott on Jul 26, 2008 8:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Born in 1935, I remember every recession since WWII and they all had one thing in common: To spur a recovery, the government LOWERED interest rates.

Unfortunately for America's middleclass and working poor, the Bush administration dropped interest rates prematurely to sustain a smoke-and-mirror economy for political gain. Tax breaks for the rich during wartime didn't help matters, either.

Now, as George W. is about to retire and inherit mega-millions from his daddy's neocon-controlled, war-profiteering Carlyle Group, all we can do is blame ourselves for letting greedy Republican and Democratic politicians in Congress bankrupt America.

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» RE: We're screwed! Posted by: buzzsaw
Prepared Localism IS Community
Posted by: Kafwood on Jul 26, 2008 8:37 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In 2005, I created a local preparedness site, PreparedTompkins.org, to assist the citizens of the county where I live address the ongoing triple crisis (the 3 E's): energy, environment, economics. In addition to the website, I do outreach at local fairs a few times a year, educating people about building resiliency in our community one household at a time and demonstrating hands-on preparedness projects so people can become active doing something, rather than just feeling anxious or depressed or immobilized (by over thinking) about what's happening on the larger national/global scenes. I belong to a number of local organizations dedicated to localism, social justice and sustainability. And this spring a friend and I launched an online social network to organize food preservation projects in our area through the PreparedTompkins.org website.

All the work I do (and I've spent many, many hours doing it) is volunteer and directed at helping my community, so I take umbrage at Scott Thill's assertion that being prepared and/or promoting preparedness is somehow anti-community. While I'm happy to see an article on this topic appear on Alternet, I find the sort of broad stroke criticism in this piece not only facile but counter-productive, and yet (sigh) another example of self-defeating leftism.

Community organizers come in many shapes and sizes - and this work does cross the right/left partisan divide. As in any social mov't (yes! that is what this is), the folks doing the grassroots work aren't getting the headlines. Thill should have taken the time to check out the many organizations listed with PostCarbon.org or Transition Communities, for example to lend more balance to his story.

There has been quite a shift in the few short years of doing this work. When I first began I was nervous and a bit self-conscious about my intentions being misinterpreted by the larger community, but my experience as an anti-war activist helped me get over my own fears of being ridiculed and sticking to the truth as I saw it. During the first year when I did public outreach occasionally someone would challenge me by suggesting I was promoting "hoarding" or "survivalism," even though almost all of what I was presenting were prudent lifestyle practices my grandparents took for granted. Now, I'm being asked to speak and write about short-term preparedness, new kitchen designs, root cellars, food preservation techniques and water storage. And the PreparedTompkins.org booth at this year's Earth Day celebration was packed with visitors looking for practical advice on where to begin transitioning for the times ahead.

We need more prepared community activists willing to take on not just the existential realities of the post-carbon era (which is defining this century) but more people putting their shoulders to wheel to do what needs to be done. I'd like to encourage people who might be sitting on the fence about taking on preparedness work to jump in - and bring your soical conscience with you.

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CIAO!
Posted by: sirios on Jul 26, 2008 8:38 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
OVERPOPULATION=OUR DEMISE

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» RE: CIAO! Posted by: DaPoorChimp
» RE: CIAO! Posted by: Dboy
» RE: CIAO! Posted by: DaPoorChimp
» RE: CIAO! Posted by: Dboy
» Before WWII an Australian... Posted by: Bbear41
"Ecotopia"
Posted by: oregoncharles on Jul 26, 2008 8:40 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is the title of a book by Ernest Callenbach, published (I think) in the 70's, describing an environmentally sane, "post-peak-oil" society. It's set in the Pacific NW, and assumes that the NW had seceded (successfully). It is also, somewhat unintentionally, a communitarian survivalist text. I think all the readers of this article would find it fascinating - even Rawles.

Callenbach also deserves credit for an alarmingly accurate prediction: in his follow-up book, Ecotopia Emerging, he describes the process by which Ecotopia seceded. A key requirement: the US is entangled in an oil war in the Middle East, and essentially decides that the oil is more important than the Pacific NW. Sound familiar?

The other key requirement, besides a tremendous amount of on-the-ground organizing: the secessionists get hold of nuclear weapons and leave one lying around in Washington, D.C. Let's hope that one isn't so prescient. It certainly indicates how practical he thinks secession really is.

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» Always Coming Home Posted by: grammasanity
Please Take the Opportunity
Posted by: Gravitas on Jul 26, 2008 8:58 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There was a very ignorant and racist response above about hoping to live in a lily white suburb. While he is just off and hateful, it occurs to me that here in Chicago, many on the South Side have an advantage. Many families in the predominately African American south side live in homes with yards. Community leaders should be telling residents to plant gardens and fruit and nut trees in every yard. The young people should learn canning and any extra produce could be taken to one of the many farmers markets. (This is happening already, but on a very small scale!) Despite stereotypes of crime and violence, the south side already has strong communities, many built around churches. If they start now, they could very easily be in a position to turn the tables once the worst of it hits. Too bad the major emphasis now is things like obesity awareness campaigns (to bring their $ to pharma) instead of how to survive the coming chaos.

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» RE: Hey Gravitas Posted by: 113121
True survivalism means discipline and skills, not just stocking up food and ammo
Posted by: Jasonix on Jul 26, 2008 9:12 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The thing that most people don't seem to get is that being prepared isn't just about hording canned food. It's about having a set of skills, physical discipline, and meaningful connections with other people who you can cooperate with in perilous times.

For me, this has involved learning to identify edible plants, learning about natural agriculture (unlike the high-irrigation, high-intensity agriculture that most folks are unwittingly practicing in their gardens now, which will no longer be tenable once water and fertilizer are in short supply), and learning the basics of hunting and trapping. It also involves getting in truly good physical condition (i.e., being able to swim 25 laps is a much better indicator of genuine physical health than having overly-large muscles that depend on chemical supplements, and while you have the option, you should detox your body from crappy fast food and eat lots of fruits, veggies, nuts, and a moderate amount of lean meat to harden and strengthen yourself) and learning your capacities as a human being. Learn hand-to-hand combat skills - I recommend Krav Maga or the U.S. military's Close Quarters Combat system.

Most importantly, you should have some form of community. Unfortunately, this is probably the hardest to come by in today's America. All the usual venues fail to provide it. The churches are little more than entertainment at this point. The once vibrant civic organizations have disappeared almost entirely. No one's life has any local dimension anymore; one's friends are liable to scattered in a 100 mile radius. But when this crap really starts to hit the fan, this will be the most important thing. Rural places have the best chance of pulling together.

That said, I think true social break-down will take more than just Peak Oil. We don't generate electricity with gas or oil, much, as it is now, so more than likely there will still be electricity supplied by coal in the future - transportation is what will crash as a result of peak oil, and food may become very expensive. The government will be firmly pressed to prevent hunger from causing a full-out revolt. If there is something else on top of peak oil, like nuclear terrorism or an avian flu epidemic, than I think we could see the end of functioning government.

So, assuming there is nothing but peak oil and the mortgage collapse, it's still a good idea to learn how to garden in order to off-set what's likely a non-stop run-up in the price of food. If there is another calamity on top of these two, then things might totally collapse.

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nothing's wrong
Posted by: sre on Jul 26, 2008 9:19 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nothing's wrong now and as long as the US government's on the job, nothing bad can or will happen to us. Have faith in the almighty US. May the US empire last a thousand years! Amen.

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» RE: nothing's wrong Posted by: sirios
THE CANARY IN THE COAL MINE
Posted by: david.model@senecac.on.ca on Jul 26, 2008 9:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All the global crises combined pose a potentially fatal risk to the human species. Destruction of the oceans, depleted fresh water supplies, global warming, toxic pollution of the environment, deforestation, growing poverty,and last but not least the nuclear threat have sped up the clock of human's time on earth.

There are solutions to all these problems but it seems that the canary in the coal mine doesn't sing loud enough to save everyone. Although people may be aware of some of these problems, they don't seem to want to take action until directly impacted by one of them. Part of that problem is that too many people are not yet aware that they have been impacted. For example, tropical storms are often caused by global warming and are not just a natural phenomenom.

The critical question is about the devestation necessary before people are be aroused from their apathetic slumber. Will there still be enough time?

http://www.stateofdarkness.com

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The Boy Who Cried Wolf
Posted by: sre on Jul 26, 2008 9:34 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ever hear of him? He cried "Wolf" so often as a joke that finaly when a wolf did come to get his flock of sheep, no one listened. All of the people posting comments as well as the author of this article are doing nothing but howling about a calamity that is not going to happen. They are jhust like that boy who cried wolf. Get real people. Nothing's really wrong. Life just goes on as it always has.

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Menopausal Mick
Posted by: Menopausal Mick on Jul 26, 2008 9:37 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So the author implies that being more self-sufficient is a crackpot pursuit? hmm... perhaps. I tend to think of myself as being a pragmatist.

We faced Eminent Domain on two different properties in the last five years. We lived in the country but near a very large city. We got tired of having our land stolen to further corporate greed and we moved to a remote area and are learning to be self-sufficient and to live in harmony with the land.

I learned to can food this week. I can't cook. I hate the kitchen and it hates me back but I was able to learn to can food. The pressure cooker didn't even blow up! If I can do it, anyone can. It is amazing what human beings can learn given the proper motivation. Current events give motivation if nothing else.

Is my move to the wilderness a survivalistic desire to hide out? hmm.. well, I watched what can happen to civilization when the infrastructure disappears. I watched the aftermath of Katrina. About three days after the storm, the desperation of the survivors produced urban nightmarish situations and events. So, a little distancing from large urban sites isn't all that much of a crackpot idea in my view.

I look at it this way... If by some miracle things miraculously get better in the half a dozen areas that are about a gnat's arse from going wackaloon, then the skills we are learning are still excellant knowledge and abilities to acquire. It isn't wasted effort to learn to produce all of our food and as much of our energy as we can manage.

For people still living the urban life, have a backyard garden. Gardening is very calming and good for your health anyway. It's a win/win pursuit. Build a backyard worm farm with a large plastic bin and shreaded paper and a bit of sand and a bit of organic earth. You can buy the worms online for under thirty dollars and they will compost your kitchen refuse in about a third of the time of traditional compost methods and produce lovely worm castings for your soil. Google "vermiculture". There are tons of sites with decent instructions for an inexpensive self-made worm farm.

There are many many simple activities that will move one to a more self-sufficient way of life whether your home is in the wilderness or downtown Manhattan.

My question is...why would one fail to become more self-sufficient?

Mick

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So, that's it, huh?
Posted by: willymack on Jul 26, 2008 9:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our economy collapses. (It may well have, already, and is being kept under wraps until dumbya & entourage go into their hidey holes with money stolen from us). As always, our populace is slow to react until they diccover their money is worthless. Hunger impels the wholesale looting of food stores at first, then more affluent looking houses, which are, of course, defended by their owners with guns. Our "civil" order breaks down as the situation degenerates into open warfare between our people, who are just trying to go on living. Weakened by hunger and constant strife, our people welcome the re-emergent scumbags responsible for their plight, as saviors, and the cycle begins anew. We will not have gained one ounce of wisdom or insight from this experience, and any "recovery" will only serve to forstall the inevitable disintegration of what we call civilization, which was foretold by those who knew, and who said "civilization" was UNSUSTAINABLE, but, of course, were ignored. If this seems to be a grim picture, it may turn out to be a best-case scenario. I hope I'm wrong.

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An Appetite For Destruction? Part I
Posted by: DaPoorChimp on Jul 26, 2008 9:52 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All interesting and scary stuff and, one fervently hopes, quite a bit overheated. I think that, from time to time, it'll benefit us all if we just step back, take a few deep breaths, count to ten. And try to get our news, such as it may be, from multiple sources. And beware of the intriguing and rather perverse appetite for cataclysmic thinking and "final" solutions/resolutions.

I like Alternet, but I feel the need to limit my exposure to it and sites like it, as they seem to delight in masturbatory expositions of hopelessly bad news. Feels so good to feel so bad?
It's a good place to come to fulfill one's daily quota of confirmation bias (q.v.): Oh it's all so terribly terribly hopeless in oh so many ways! And, (oh, deep, dark delight!!), even in ways I'd never have imagined on my own!
I speak here as a three decade veteran (Ret.) of an Armageddon-obsessed religious cult, so I know from long personal experience about the power of exposure to and faith in information from too few or insufficiently diversified sources. Years and years trying to read the signs of the End Times into every little tidbit of news we could lay hands on. No preparation for the future (savings, education etc.), since there wasn't going to be one. Well, at least not one in which sound financial, educational or professional planning and effort would benefit one.

Hey, people, it IS possible that this is all gonna go bad, very, very bad. It's also possible that this will happen soon, very, very soon. It IS indeed possible that we're, as it were, latter-day inhabitants of the Roman Empire, circa 475 A.D. (The generally accepted date of the collapse of the Roman Empire being 476 A.D.). We COULD all, or mostly, be verily screwed, and that quite soon.

However---take those deep breaths I advised a few sentences ago---it's also possible that we're NOT! It's possible we'll find our way out of the various messes with no, or minimal, disruption of planetary civilization (OK, OK, such as it is), let alone its catastrophic and utter collapse. And, even if it's not possible to avoid completely The Big Hurt, we may be able to contain and minimize its destructive effects. Hey, it's conceivable that BILLIONS of people will survive, quite intact. Imagine that! We just MAY find the resourcefulness and determination to switch to more sustainable forms of energy, food and potable water production and general living. We may actually figure out, work out, a modus vivendi, or a whole pile of modi vivendi, which permit civilization (I'll assume that most of us here regard civilization a generally good thing) to survive and even thrive. After all, along with being perhaps insufficiently far removed yet from our red-in-tooth-and-claw ancestry, we're also a very tough and clever species.....

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» RE: An Appetite For Destruction? Part I Posted by: scienceisnotconsensus
Perfect storm yes, yet other future directions are worth considering
Posted by: alturn on Jul 26, 2008 9:58 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There seems to be a collective premise that humanity as a whole cannot come together for the good of all.

A local-activist-turned-politician once said a person is one disaster that effects them directly from becoming an activist. This conflaguration of events is about to turn all of the people of the world into activists. Some will fend for themselves, but most will likely understand that we are in a new time where divisions are not the answer, finding unity and realizing interdependence is.

Benjamin Creme has long articulated a different scenario than the survivalists. That a collective voice of the world's people will emerge to counter division and demand sharing, justice and cooperation. That this voice will be seen as the voice of wisdom and will forge a new direction for a humanity that is ready to take the next evolutionary step - one that recognizes that love and service to others and the planet is the prized medium of exchange.

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An Appetite For Destruction? Part II
Posted by: DaPoorChimp on Jul 26, 2008 10:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.....(sorry, but I was evidently too long-winded to fit all my blather in one entry. Hey, did y'all know there was a 4000 word limit?! Learn something new every day.)

And, if you're one of those---and I just KNOW you're out there---who finds him/her-self depressed, dismayed or disheartened by so much as the mere speculation that The End may not come, think on that for a while too. Really...think on WHY you're so invested in the notion of Collapse.

My final point in this somewhat discursive essay is that NO ONE knows the future; neither corporate fatcats nor armed-to-the-teeth survivalists nor preachers nor philosophers nor scientists nor fervent believers nor fervent unbelievers has anything but guesses to offer regarding what the future holds.
When I first became exposed to my aforementioned Armageddon-obsessed cult in the late sixties, we were oft assured by our fearless leader (now long deceased) that the Big Events would be occurring in "the next 10 to 15 years". I don't recall ever hearing a prediction past 30 years, and most were in that 10-15 years time frame.
I believed it, and many thousands of my fellow cult members did also, and we structured our lives accordingly.
And, oh, our leader assured us he had to be right because he was speaking, not of himself, but rather under inspiration of none other than the Holy Spirit!
Talk about the Big Guns.

And, oh, by the way, that 30 year outside estimate/prediction? Well, it passed about ten years ago. Obviously, the 10-15 time frame fared even worse when contrasted with reality.
Shucks! Really shoulda continued that education and started a savings plan a bit earlier I guess.

My general inclination these days, convinced as I am that no one can reliably predict the future, is that we may just as well work for the very finest one we can imagine. And hope for the best. I mean, why not?

Peace and long life.

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» I agree, bcgirl Posted by: Democratic Socialist
» RE: I agree, bcgirl Posted by: DaPoorChimp
» RE: I agree, bcgirl Posted by: kegbot1
An Appetite For Destruction, P.S.
Posted by: DaPoorChimp on Jul 26, 2008 10:26 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hey, dammit, I didn't have anywhere near 4000 words! Guess I read that wrong.

Anyways, nice to see an entry like alturn's, right there between the two sections of mine. A little optimism is a good thing, even though pessimism sometimes seems, like the dark side of the Force, easier, more seductive.
Peace and long life. And may the Force (you know, the Jedi side. Mostly anyway) be with you.

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An Appetite For Destruction? P.P.S.
Posted by: DaPoorChimp on Jul 26, 2008 10:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And thanks to all you other folks who also said generally uplifting things. Nice to know you're out there.
Now if you'll all excuse me, I've got to get that hose from my car's exhaust pipe out of the damn bathroom window before the neighbors notice it.....
P&LL

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the depression is already here...
Posted by: Annapurna1 on Jul 26, 2008 11:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and it has been since the dot-com bust broke the proverbial camels' back...but this depression is proceeding in a more orderly fashion under the name "neoconservatism"...

in the neocon depression..however..the economy does not decline but continues to expand at a breakneck pace..while poverty expands just as rapidly...those who fall into the latter category see the depression for what it is.. but it will never officially exist...(i should also point out the inherent inefficiency in producing wealth that ppl cant afford to buy)...

as such..there will be no economic catastrophe that will dethrone the neocons and start some kind of global apocalypse.. because the neocons are the apocalypse.. and they will cause at least as much suffering and death as a global nuclear war would have...

i wont be around in the 22nd century to find out if neoconservatism has morphed into something more constructive by then..but im more than a bit skeptical about this prospect...and even if that does turn out to be the case..it will by no means excuse the actions of the neocons in the coming century...

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Real Survivalists are "Gun Nuts" AND Greens who DO and SHOULD get along with neighbors!
Posted by: snorkeeeee on Jul 26, 2008 12:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The "wackos" of which Kunstler speaks are the very very few bunker and fortress types, who generally have no neighbors, or neighbors that are miles away from them and that's the way they like it. To cast all survivalists as right wing fanatics/white supremists/Jew hating "angry white males" with Spetznaz training through Bo Gritz really, really, shows the ignorance of some posters here. Get a grip! Most of us do just fine in a decently populated rural community that also has a country store, co-op, plenty of neighbors...or is it a "conspiracy" to just want the government and everyone else to leave us alone? but never completely alone. If you want the REAL face of "survivalism" without going to survivalblog and feel like you have to buy something, I have the site for you:
Something Happening Here.net

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» Good points Posted by: Democratic Socialist
Dmitry Orlov's "Reinventing Collapse: The Soviet Example and American Prospects"
Posted by: bcgirl125 on Jul 26, 2008 1:16 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He also has a blog on the topic of peak oil and US economic problems. Google "Club Orlov" to see his musings on the subject. Basically, he contends that America is less well-prepared for collapse than the Soviet Union was, due to lack of public services and basic infrastructure to maintain transportation and public health. America is more prone to absolute anarchy in an emergency.

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» Orlov is great -- here is the link Posted by: Democratic Socialist
Silly liberals -- cities are for idiots...
Posted by: Democratic Socialist on Jul 26, 2008 1:31 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As other people have already talked about here, in the coming crisis the 'diverse' cities will be the last place you want to be...

I like Kunstler's message, but he isn't much help considering he generally doesn't practice what he preaces but spends his time jetting around North America to preach his apocalyptic message and hanging out in his hippy-laden hometown of Saratoga Springs, NY smoking pot, writing novels, and eating IMPORTED organic food along with all of the other aging hippies.

My view is that people need to avoid the unsustainable cities and head back out to the countryside and/or small towns and repopulate it/them. We need to rebuild and repopulate all of the small and medium-sized towns, villages, and rural areas and relearn the host of necessary skills needed to be independent, successful, and cohesive communities just as we used to be before the post-WWII rise of suburbia and America's mega-cities.

We need to rebuild an extensive, tight-knit network of linked small towns/villages and rural areas across America and Canada where we can all work together toward common communal goals, just as it used to be in pre-WWII America, Canada, Europe, Australia, and other Western countries. Additionally, modern technology like the internet can only improve communication, cooperation, and networking opportunities.

If case you haven't noticed this already, let me spell it out clearly: people in cities are utter slaves to The System more than anyone else because they are so dependent on it for nearly all of their needs. Nearly all necessities are imported in to cities from the countryside, and city-dwellers are basically helpless because they depend on The System for even the most basic things like water/food, shelter, electricity, etc. Most life-long city-dwellers (nearly all of them "liberals") are often helplessly dependent types -- they are generally clueless, mollycoddled, lazy, decadent, and prone to mass-hysteria and violence should a crisis or series of crises break out since they no longer know any basic survival skills (and again, there really is no true independence or control of your own destiny in cities because nearly everything is imported in to them).

Out in the countryside though you and your family/group/community are largely responsible for your own destiny. As long as you have the skills and determination, along with a strong community network, you and your family/community can become much less dependent on The System for all of your needs, i.e. you are more able to control how you want to live your life. It is clear that people in cities are generally dependent CONSUMERS (importers) while people in the countryside are generally self/communally-reliant PRODUCERS (exporters) -- which do you prefer to be?

Out in the countryside you can enjoy the beauty of nature and be good stewards of the land (in cities, however, it's all terrible gray concrete and ugly steel); you can avoid pollution, crime, dependence, ethnic/racial strife, and the other pitfalls of urban living; you can rebuild your own schools and other cultural institutions and avoid being indoctrinated and controlled by an overwhelming central government which is run by one-world internationalists, open-borders types, and greedy free-traders; you can set up our own independent media systems, non-corrupt local governments, and strong regional economies; and you can become more self and communally sufficient by relearning critical skills like agriculture, water and soil management, construction, carpentry/forestry, animal husbandry, hunting/foraging, and many other indispensable trades, skills, and occupations which are necessary for long-term survival and cultural continuity but have since been lost as people have been herded in to the cities and suburbs in the past few decades.

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gun nuts?
Posted by: 2NDLTUSMC on Jul 26, 2008 4:22 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let me tell you something. I served as an Officer in the Marine Corp from 1965-1969.
I raised my children to respect others and to shoot. Guns are what kept this country free. If it where not for the people to fight back, then they would have been in slaved. I think you need to read real history, not the crap they taught you in school. The not so real history they teach today. Yes, we will survive.
and as for you, you will follow what ever someone tells you. Like lambs to the chopping block. Just put your head down and wait for the blow to the neck.

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Federal Government or local War Lords?
Posted by: harryf200 on Jul 26, 2008 6:05 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seems to me that post crash, it'll be a bloody dog-eat-dog existence.

Just give me a gun and one bullet - you can have the gun back later.

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Survivalism is Nothing New
Posted by: phoenix redhawk on Jul 26, 2008 7:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In this modern western world up until lately survival was gettng a job and keeping it and because that was as easy as falling of a log we didn't see holding a job as survivalism.

Survivalism is an everyday human operation, but not limited to humans. Some folks are better at survival than others, but .9999% work at it.

The American Indians failed to meet the challenge of western civilization and thus they nearly disappeared off the landscape, but with the introduction of casinos they are making a come back and their survivalism has taken hold. Good for them. Unfortunately they are striving to restore the old paradigm instead of entering a new and dynamic prosperity....too bad. They got to give up the one with the earth crap. Casinos are not one with the earth got that?

Back to the modern day survivalists. They see the warning signs and they are responding. For those who fail to prepare they will go into a survival mode once the dooh dooh hits the fan, but much like the American Indians it will be too little too late.

America will survive and the nation will be better for the hardship. There will be the late survivalists that will make it and they will often talk about the Great American Depression of 2009. 2009 is the magic year folks. Bolt down the hatches and pay off your debts if you can or prepare a bankruptcy that will protect your hard earned assets. Don't allow anyone to just come and take your property, especially the corrupt bankers that created the problem and then perpetuated the fraud. If I wasn't such a nice guy I would suggest that we hang the bankers and the lawyers and a few politicians right along side them for good measure, but that wouldn't be very nice now would it?

Do you guys really think Obama is sane? I know McCain is a nut cake, but folks don't be fooled Obama is just as bad! We allowed the best candidate to get away...Ron Paul...ugh!

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Time to survive
Posted by: Reader11722 on Jul 26, 2008 10:00 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The current madness in the world is caused by worthless paper money and a even more worthless Federal Reserve (private banks that issue our money, for shame on us). Fiat money, yet another infringement on our rights by the gov't. Add it to the ever-growing list of violations:
They violate the 1st Amendment by opening mail, caging demonstrators and banning books like America Deceived (book) from Amazon.
They violate the 2nd Amendment by confiscating guns during Katrina.
They violate the 4th Amendment by conducting warrant-less wiretaps.
They violate the 5th and 6th Amendment by suspending habeas corpus.
They violate the 8th Amendment by torturing.
They violate the entire Constitution by starting 2 illegal wars based on lies and on behalf of a foriegn gov't.
Support Dr. Ron Paul and save this great country.

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» RE: Time to survive Posted by: DaPoorChimp
» RE: Time to survive Posted by: Dboy
Nice Photo. Is That A Survivalist...
Posted by: ranchero42 on Jul 26, 2008 10:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Or the Sergeant-At-Arms at the Log Cabin convention?

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Apocalypticism
Posted by: GeorgeSalt on Jul 26, 2008 10:34 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've always been fascinated with apocalypticism. I grew up in a rather religious family in a small town in rural Pennsylvania, so I heard about the impending End Times throughout my childhood. Later I learned that this is a common theme that has run through Western thought for more than 2,000 years. Many Romans believed that their empire was the pinnacle of human achievement, and when it fell, the world would end -- the themes found in the Book of Revelation are hardly original. I suspect that apocalypticism might be a faint echo from the fall of Rome, which probably did seem like the end of the world to those who lived through it.

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Predictions for the next 20 yrs.
Posted by: govindas on Jul 26, 2008 10:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Due to very heavy karma or reactions to actions, the US population in general will have to pay for the wars they started;taxpayers also participate in the murders!They are already paying,with killed,wounded and mentally deranged soldiers...Wild fires,floods etc are also part of the reactions,and poverty,due to bankrupcy also...It is quite possible to get some missiles on the US cities soon!

Due to intensive chemical agriculture,the soil will also react by refusing to yield food...as it is so poisoned!

It is now the turn of India,vietnam,Africa to enjoy life through new economic and prosperous life!

http://varnasrama.org [localized organic agricultural villages]

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Be Prepared
Posted by: Buckshot00 on Jul 26, 2008 11:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Cheap insurance. Food shortages reported across the board, Iowa losing 8 billion in crops this year. Peak oil, war, economic pick your disaster. Forget the crossbows, blow guns, sling shot get real equipment to survive. www.snare-trap-survive.com

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SHAME ON JOSH HOLLAND FOR NOTHING ON JUDICIARY HEARINGS!! SUPPOSE EVERYONE WHO KEEPS TELLING........
Posted by: Turiye on Jul 26, 2008 11:45 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.....EVER GD PERSON, AS IF THIS IS A NEW AND DIFFERENT NOVEL BETTER GET CRACKING ON THE OTHER NAOMIS "SHOCK DOCTRINE", ONLY BEEN OUT FOR A GAZILLION YEARS, SHIT IF YOU WEREN'T AWARE OF THIS AND HAD TO BUY A BOOK TO TELL YOU AGAIN I UNDERSTAND YOUR LAZINESS ABOUT NOT DOING A DAMN THING, LIKE GOING TO THE HEARINGS!!

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There is one radical solution that will proactively prevent disaster...
Posted by: SevenStarHand on Jul 27, 2008 1:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we eliminated money and simply strove to cooperate, there would be no great crisis in the future, no looming debts, no debacles, just a wiser and easier life for everyone...

All of these disaster scenarios flow from one assumption; that people will forever remain too dumb to realize that the reliance upon and existence of money is the root cause of the problem, not a solution. What we are actually heading towards is a new civilization founded upon wisdom and cooperation, instead of the delusion and folly of the ancient deception known as money.

We now have the opportunity to realize that it will be easier to transition to a civilization and societal model that guarantees everyone is cared for, with a home, food, medical care, etc. And were not talking about communism or some other negative result. The illusory barriers erected by the brain-dead reliance upon money, instead of wisdom and cooperation, can be removed. Likewise, the times of relying upon evil and greedy leaders who rule with and because of money can be thrown to trash heap of history. We now finally have the incentive and the experience to think outside of the proverbial box and kick the bums out forever.

This is the long-awaited chance for true freedom, not fear and disaster...

Money is the lifeblood of the powerful and the chains and key to human enslavement...

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Were the ancient Maya right?
Posted by: Old Skeptic on Jul 27, 2008 4:00 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The ancient Maya predicted that the earth (or at least this cycle of their world) would end in December of 2012 (assuming that the archaeologists translated the carvings correctly, of course.) I forget if it is supposed to end on the 12th or the 21st, but I guess we'll find out if they were right in about 4 years. Or maybe they got it wrong and it has already happened: in 2000 when the Supreme Court gave the White House to Bush!

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» RE: Were the ancient Maya right? Posted by: richholland
» RE: Were the ancient Maya right? Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale
» RE: Were the ancient Maya right? Posted by: Old Skeptic
» Ed Cayce predicted... Posted by: Bbear41
Mennonites/the depression
Posted by: EMB on Jul 27, 2008 4:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My grandmother lived through and barely remembers the "Great Depression" of the 1930's. She lived in a self-sustaining mennonite community (Kansas). All she remembers is her mother once turned her skirt inside out to re-sew it and make it look like new. She also left that community to marry my grandfather (A Lutheran?!) and did not agree with their views of community/women.

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GOD IS SEVERELY PUNISHING AMERICA TO ETERNAL DAMNATION !!!!
Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 27, 2008 5:28 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And this is what America gets for taking everything for granted and waging wars to STEAL STEAL STEAL all the while banning peaceful ideas and solutions !

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By the way, do a google search on "clothes line" "big government" zoning
Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 27, 2008 6:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And find out why your government is against another energy saving idea. Hint: clothes line vs washer/dryer .

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Another important issue. Wind energy and hemp.
Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 27, 2008 6:30 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Small wind systems are most practical for individuals or businesses located in areas with above-average wind speeds, and with at least half an acre of open land to allow the wind to "stretch its legs." Regions where electricity prices are also especially high make small wind systems an attractive investment.

But what if you don’t have an acre of land? A lot of suburbanites and city-dwellers ask if they can put a small wind turbine on the roof of their home or even their office building, in the style of other green building tactics. This would seem to make sense, as it would prevent the cost of purchasing a tower, and you may say, "That’s where my solar panels are anyway…." However, there are a few important differences between installing a turbine in an open field and on a city rooftop:

* The wind quality is different on a roof or in the city. Rooftop ledges create a lot of turbulence, which makes finding the necessary pockets of fast-moving, dense air more difficult. As a rule of thumb, the hub of a wind turbine should be at least 30 feet higher than anything else in the immediate vicinity to take advantage of the greater wind speeds at greater heights, without interference from trees or buildings.
* Most roofs are not designed to hold the weight of a turbine. Nor are they usually built to withstand the constant vibrations that a spinning object will inevitably send though a building.
* City zoning regulations usually prohibit this type of home improvement (however, the cities of Chicago and San Francisco have recently granting permits for "urban wind" installations).


Reform the zoning laws and get hemp legalized. Buildings made of hemp are not only more environmentally friendly but are also stronger and more durable. This will make it even easier and more secure for wind turbines and solar panels to be installed.

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It's Better to be Safe, than Sorry.
Posted by: poorighteousteacher on Jul 27, 2008 11:12 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Even if an economic, biological, and/or nuclear catastrophe doesn't occur, there is something to be said for the locally focused, self-sustained lifestyle. Smaller government is more efficient and effective, and true happiness is shared in a small, tight-knit community. The majority of Americans are unaware of discussions of this nature. As Americans, we have been conditioned to consume, and derive our self-satisfaction from what we purchase and acquire- which quickly fades and must be constantly renewed. Most of us don't have the time or know-how to design, build, or construct what we need or want. But, the satisfaction and appreciation of making and repairing what you need to live is extraordinary. We as a nation no longer feel this, so we buy and buy and buy cheap crap from overseas, that even at the factory level- we used to make ourselves. Reduced to a demeaning service economy and living on borrowed money, may be the root cause of depression and mental illness in this country. The possibility of impending disaster is evident to the vigilant. But, I want to become self-sufficient for my own sanity and family's happiness.

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I have looked into...
Posted by: Bbear41 on Jul 27, 2008 10:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...The virtual world called second life. Recently I read an account of huge, restricted retirement communities in Florida. Sounded a LOT like 2nd life (except they can't fly)

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» RE: I have looked into... Posted by: dannrusso
survival books
Posted by: richholland on Jul 28, 2008 5:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I read several survival books; how to fish salmon, prepare a fire, walk thtough the woods.
But 80% of the people must survive in a CITY.
Think about New York with at least 10 buildings like 9/11.
Read about Berlin 1945, Warzava 1944, London 1944,Bagdad 1991 etc.
Now there is peace and money for a social, medical network but what you will have in a real collaps of civilization???
Where are the books and organizations? So please forget about the romantic barbecue survival.It is survival between corpses and concrete.

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» RE: survival books Posted by: JERSEYDAN
There are no real survivalists on this thread.
Posted by: JakobFabian01 on Jul 28, 2008 4:18 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are no real survivalists on this thread. That's because they understand that if our highly centralized, high-tech civilization collapses, the Internet will be the FIRST THING TO GO.

It's possible that after the collapse, the Amish will have the status of peasants and the gun-toting troglodytes will have the status of feudal lords. But I suspect that this new feudalism will not last long. Without planes, bombs, and tanks, the feudal lords will fall, and the rebellious peasants will succeed. The last bullets will be exchanged for seeds.

By the way, I'm not a survivalist. I'm a socialist. I believe it's just possible - not likely, but possible - that we will learn to share our surplus wealth before we waste it all in fighting pointless wars against each other. Rather than achieving equality by means of the "zero solution" of universal subsistence agriculture, we may just manage to preserve a few high-tech conveniences like the Internet, hospitals, libraries, and long-distance transportation.

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Imaginary Possibility does not equal Actuality
Posted by: dayahka on Jul 28, 2008 7:16 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are two types of people: catastrophists and regularists. The survivalists are catastrophists; some are religious millennialists who urge that we "cling to Jesus" to be raptured, while others are secular millennialists who want us to cling to our Smith and Wessons. I don't think a single predicted catastrophe has ever happened (Isaiah and a few other after-the-fact prophets notwithstanding). These survivalists are often very entertaining (like Kuntsler), but don't bet the farm on anything they say or do. We will face difficulties, but we'll muddle through somehow and come up with different but not necessarily better social and economic arrangements. I grew up without electricity, refrigeration, or flush toilets, and would have no trouble returning to those days. I think we'll manage.

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Ignorance and Preparedness
Posted by: Godfather89 on Jul 31, 2008 6:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ignorance is the act of not knowing whether or not purposely. Our society is based around ignorance, just look at the entertainment industry it brings in so much money its ridiculous. This tells tells me something, that we are more obsessed with short-term stimulation than we are in regards to being a disciplined and vigilant people.

If you are obsessed with short term stimulation than you are impulsive. Impulsiveness is based around emotions and ones current situation. When the bad things finally come most people will surrender whatever liberty they have left for their own security, not knowing that they are walking straight into a full police state.

Those who realize this will be pressured to act with even more haste to preserve the American Constitution in America sparking a real Revolution against this police state.

The ultimate price for ignorance in a once free society such as ours is the lose of liberty. We are screwed because, we ignorantly allowed ourselves to get screwed. We were to busy partying and having fun that we lost sight of what really matters. Now we are going to pay the ultimate price.

The powers that be are more opened about their real actions because, we are ignorant and we actually think everything they do for us is for our best interests.

WELL THE PARTY IS OVER...
THE DRINKS ARE GONE...
ITS TIME TO GET SOBER...
AND REALIZE WHAT WE HAVE DONE...

[We = Sheeple Mentality]

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Yadda, yadda, yadda. We've shat on our environment, our intellect, our commons and ourselves.
Posted by: thekidde on Jul 31, 2008 10:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We shall reap the just desserts of greed, discompassion and cruelty and it won't be pretty. Humanity will implode and leave the Earth a better place - no gods, no wars, just natural selection trying to come up with something better than people.

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Plan B
Posted by: joaocleitao on Aug 1, 2008 4:47 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do you have a Plan B for your life?

We are building a community. A solution for peak oil, financial and economic meltdown, climate change and happiness.

www.relocatenow.eu

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In order to survive, trust will be key
Posted by: Bobsays on Aug 2, 2008 6:52 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And you just aren't going to trust some dude you don't know who turns up in rags looking for a handout, let alone he is not of your race. Germany rebuilt because Germans are hard workers, have enormous pride in their culture, technology and high standards. What pride is there with a population already living a ghetto existance when the shit hits the fan? These dudes are going to go neolithic, Mad Max on you. The kind of stuff they already do in the public housing estates: getting high, setting up vicious gangs and bopping each other, convoy sex with unwilling teenage girls- it's already ugly. And you think these dudes are going to be setting up multiracial, macrobiotic co-ops?

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The key will be to survive the first 3 years...after that there won't be many people left
Posted by: blogbooks on Aug 2, 2008 12:55 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you can survive the first 3 years of a true systemic collapse then your chances of survival will go way up.

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Who cares?
Posted by: sre on Aug 2, 2008 6:54 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nothing bad can or will happen to most of us. The US is God's chosen country, and He'll look out for us.

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I've noticed
Posted by: sre on Aug 3, 2008 6:06 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As gas prices head lower, more people seem to be driving. The little hiccup in prices has corrected itself. We'll see much lower gas prices as the economy goes back to its normal robust self.
USA forever!!
We will rule the world. Freedom at the point of the sword is the only way to go. We shall overcome!

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» RE: I've noticed Posted by: Dianka
economic distaster
Posted by: Dianka on Aug 20, 2008 12:47 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My first response to the increasing hardships of Americans is to remind them that our social/economic system is structured to maintain a level of poverty. The number of poor expands and contracts based on a range of factors, but even during the best of economic times, many people are left behind.

Since the '80's, America hasn't given a damn about the poor. Our progressive community ignores US poverty, although in recent years, they seem to be seeing the economic hardships of the middle class (remaining oblivious to the vast growth of sub-middle America). When Clinton repealed welfare -- a policy that was central to the growth and stability of America's middle class following WWII -- today's progressive movement yawned with indifference, failing to grasp the impact that these policies would have on average workers. Too bad.

I'm not proud that, when I hear of people losing their jobs, homes, etc., I have the urge to throw back some of the wisdom they previously bestowed upon the poor, like "Get a job! If one doesn't pay enough, get two! Quit whining, get up every morning, work hard and play by all the rules, pull yourself up by the bootstraps, look for a hand up not a handout..." and so on.

But I can't/don't want to do that.. My hope is that we learn a few things along the way. America's poor were never a "them" to our "us". The poor are, and always have been "we the people". When we allow government to strip out the very programs and policies that are, indeed, central to the socio-economic stability of the nation, we are harming ourselves. It's like allowing the foundation of your house to crumble. When a country turns its back on the poor, the nation will collapse.

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