COMMENTS: 273
Massive Economic Disaster Seems Possible -- Will Survivalists Get the Last Laugh?
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And the interesting thing about the once-fringe movement at this moment in history is that survivalism has now gone green -- at least in theory.
From peak oil and food crises all the way to catastrophic payback from that bitch Mother Earth, there are more reasons to hide than ever. Conventional society as we know it is already undergoing some disastrous transformations. Ask anyone ducking fires in California, floods in the Midwest or bullets in Baghdad. Maybe it didn't make sense to run for the hills, stockpile water and food, grow your own vegetables and drugs, or unplug from consumerism back when America's budget surplus still existed, its armies weren't burning up all the nation's revenue and its infrastructure wasn't being outsourced to a globalized work force.
But those days are gone, daddy, gone.
What's coming up is weirder. Author, social critic and overall hilarious dude James Kunstler tackled that weirdness, otherwise known as an incoming post-oil dystopia, in his recent novel, World Made by Hand, which has since become one of a handful of survivalist classics. And as Kunstler sees it, whether you are talking about gun nuts or green pioneers, at least you are talking.
"At least they're aware that we've entered the early innings of what could easily become a very disruptive period of our history," the Clusterfuck Nation columnist explains. "Most of them are responding constructively rather than just defensively. They're much more interested in gardening and animal husbandry than firearms."
Not that the gun nuts have gone away. Their ranks have just diversified.
"The gun nuts have been on the scene longer than the peak oil argument has been in play," he adds. "They were initially preoccupied with Big Government and its accompanying narrative fantasy of fascist oppression, which is why they adopted a fascist tone themselves. But peak-oil survivalists are different from the Ruby Ridge generation. They don't think that a bolt-hole in the woods is a very promising strategy. We have no idea at this point what the level of social cohesion or disorder may be, but if the rural areas, especially the agricultural centers, become too lawless for farming, then we'll be in pretty severe trouble because there will be nothing for us to eat."
That's not on the to-do list of author and SurvivalBlog owner James Rawles, who has been getting asked more and more questions by a mainstream press finally waking to the consequences of disaster capitalism, climate crisis and the hyperreal dream of bottomless consumption. He has fielded questions from the New York Times, and he has taken an online beating from conscientious pubs like Grist, but he hasn't gone Hollywood. The times, which are a-changin', have caught up to him.
"There is greater interest in preparedness these days because the fragility of our economy, lengthening chains of supply and the complexity of the technological infrastructure have become apparent to a broader cross section of the populace," Rawles wrote to me via e-mail (but only after asking how many unique monthly visitors AlterNet commanded). "All parties concerned may not realize it, but the left-of-center greens calling for local economies and encouraging farmers markets have a tremendous amount in common with John Birchers decrying globalist bankers and gun owners complaining about their constitutional rights. At the core, for all of them, is the recognition that big, entrenched, centralized power structures are not the answer. They are, in fact, the problem."
Fair enough. But that broad brush fails to recognize the complexities of the very community it is purporting to try to establish. Indeed, difference is what survivalists seem to be running from, whether it is historically the difference between blacks and whites, secularists and true believers, or simply the haves and have-nots. It is that latter crowd that the survivalists seem most worried about. Their separation from society at large is arguably a retreat from community rather than a striving toward it.
"I'd say that survivalism is indeed a celebration of community," Rawles asserts. "It is the embodiment of America's traditional can-do spirit of self-reliance that settled the frontier."
But that's also a generalization, especially when one considers that the word "settled" is a coded reduction for a "near-genocidal wipeout of the frontier's native populations," most if not all of whom were perfecting a survivalist ethic by maximizing their skill sets and living in symbiosis with the land that provided them what they needed in food, tools and medicine. In fact, those settlements would have been hard-pressed to exist without what Rawles earlier described as a "centralized power structure," known as the expansionist United States government and its military, paving the road forward. Each self-reliant mythology carries within it grains of complicity in the community at large, which is a fancy way of saying there's nowhere to run, baby, nowhere to hide.
This is especially true today in our hyperreal, hyperconsuming 21st century, where survivalism has become more of a gadget fantasy than an earnest grasp for community.
"It seems a natural human impulse that we are hard-wired to follow as circumstances require," Kunstler says, "although it is constrained by social and cultural conditioning. To some degree, in our consumer culture, survivalism is related to the gear fetishism you see in popular magazines that purport to be about sporting adventures, but are really about acquiring snazzy equipment. America in 2008 has become a cartoon culture of Hollywood violence that promotes grandiose power fantasies of hyper-individualism and vigilante justice. Add guns and economic hardship, and spice it up with ethnic grievances, and the recipe is not very appetizing."
This future cultural, environmental and geopolitical miasma is where the survivalist and the mainstream converge in agreement. Both camps, pardon the pun, are convinced that we're screwed down the road.
"The next Great Depression will be a tremendous leveler," Rawles prophesies. "If anything, life in the 22nd century will more closely resemble the 19th century than the 20th century. Sadly, the 21st century will probably be remembered as the time of the Great Die-Off."
"I don't consider it a total wipeout," Kunstler counters. "It's a very big change, but people are resilient and resourceful. Look, imagine if you were a person who had survived the Second World War in Europe, and you were walking around Berlin in the spring of 1946, a year after the end of the war. A once-magnificent city has been reduced to rubble. Your culture is lying in ashes. Yet, people pick up and rebuild."
That is, if they're sticking together. If they're scattered and fending for themselves, and taking armed retreat defense tips from SurvivalBlog, that makes rebuilding a bit more complicated. Which, in the end, is where survivalism is most ambiguous. Is it a growing population of forward-looking realists who are smartly preparing for the die-off brought on by climate crisis and economic collapse, so they can pick up themselves and their people, and rebuild with that "can-do" spirit, as Rawles calls it? Or are they simply gadget-fascinated fundamentalists afraid of change and challenge, so afraid that they'd rather hide and hoard than join the fight?
The jury is still out. But, according to Rawles, it will soon have its diversity mirrored by survivalism's changing demographic.
"I think that in the next couple of decades," he explains, "we will witness the formation of some remarkable intentional communities that will feature some unlikely bedfellows: anarchists and Ayn Rand readers, Mennonites and gun enthusiasts, Luddites and techno-geeks, fundamentalist Christians and Gaia worshippers, tree huggers and horse wranglers. We welcome them all. Because the threats are clearly manifold: peak oil, derivatives meltdowns, pandemics, food shortages, market collapses, terrorism, state-sponsored global war and more. In a situation this precarious, I believe that it is remarkably naive to think that mere geographical isolation will be sufficient to shelter communities from the predation of evildoers."
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Posted by: mmckinl on Jul 26, 2008 12:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Powers that Be have known that there would be these oncoming troubles, they have been analyzed and forecast by the intelligence agencies. The peak oil phenomena was clearly demonstrated in America in 1970 as supply diminished. Was it an accident that the Bankruptcy Act was passed in 2005 or that the privately owned and operated Federal Reserve let the banks go wild for hundreds of billions in short term profits? The after effects of world peak oil are well known to those in the know and they have prepared and the picture isn't pretty. They saw this coming and planned accordingly, virtual debtors prison for tens of millions from mortgage debt and hundreds of billions for those in the know to buy into a corporate survival company or build a compound of their own.
Is there a way out of this mess? Yes, but it entails real taxation of the rich and the elimination of the fractional reserve banking system. Two things they are not about to let happen.
They would rather let the situation dictate war and starvation so that their power base can be preserved to dominate the landscape once the violence and chaos subside. The laws are all in place to bring on a police state. Fisa for complete immunity for surveillance and arrest without cause. Rubber bullets, tasers, tear gas and "pain beam vehicles" to answer crowds.
Look for mass starvation and civil war abroad and malnutrition, homelessness and unemployment at home ...
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» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ...
Posted by: kegbot1
» Only MORONS think like that...
Posted by: Cathyc
» Uh, seen our Prezdint lately?
Posted by: pangolin
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ...
Posted by: BlammDaddy
» RE: The Very Rich .....Their money will be worthless
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» Your tinfoil hat is ready
Posted by: Philip Newton
» You Should Look Up Bohemian Grove
Posted by: Gravitas
» RE: You Should Look Up Bohemian Grove
Posted by: Philip Newton
» Your ignorant tinfoil outlook is past ready
Posted by: PointMan
» RE: Your ignorant tinfoil outlook is past ready
Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: Your thinking hat is ready
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Your thinking hat is ready
Posted by: Philip Newton
» why has this site become so user-unfriendly?
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: thanks, ellie, but guess what? My logging in was refused at least first try...
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Looks more like end times,the closer we get to 2012
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ...
Posted by: scienceisnotconsensus
» Psychopathic personalities of our "leaders"
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ...
Posted by: bloominblacksheep
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ...
Posted by: scienceisnotconsensus
» Correction: second paragraph
Posted by: scienceisnotconsensus
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ...
Posted by: scienceisnotconsensus
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ...
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ...
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ...
Posted by: scienceisnotconsensus
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ...
Posted by: 113121
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ...
Posted by: Lauren
» Blackwater to the rescue
Posted by: carbon-based
» All of this has been planned and carefully laid out by the elite...
Posted by: Prophit
» RICH IS RELATIVE
Posted by: grammasanity
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Elijah on Jul 26, 2008 4:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE:Failure to learn from history
Posted by: Sushi
» What exactly is 'Middle-Class' America? Who are they?
Posted by: Cathyc
» Your kidding, right???
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Suzon on Jul 26, 2008 4:42 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Though Wilson's resignation has never been explained (blackmail? threats?), the coup did not take place.
One of the drawbacks to living a bunker is the lack of social opportunities. The point of having diamonds is to have one's wife wear them in public. I suppose that touring opera companies could make a circuit of the various bolt holes, but somehow it wouldn't be the same.
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» The military coup that didn't happen ...
Posted by: harryf200
» Read my comment near the bottom if you want a truly wise solution
Posted by: SevenStarHand
Comments are closed-
Posted by: bthespoon on Jul 26, 2008 4:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The Amish
Posted by: kegbot1
» RE: The Amish
Posted by: hagwind
» Until, that is...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Until, that is...
Posted by: oregoncharles
» Just been super busy...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Until, that is . . .
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Until, that is . . .
Posted by: Lauren
» Yes, the Amish will still thrive
Posted by: Democratic Socialist
» The Amish depend on us
Posted by: gellero1
» Uhm... you do realize...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: The Amish are better off without the gun toting motherfucking NRA.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: The Amish are better off without the gun toting motherfucking NRA.
Posted by: sasquuatch55
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Peak Shrink on Jul 26, 2008 5:36 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The solutions will be myriad, local, and "individual" only in the same way that rhizomes grow.
You are right, Scott, that there is nowhere to run and hide. It isn't enough to just talk about it, though, we need to shut off our TV's (and computers) and actually do the hard work of developing trust between neighbors. And you are also right: we can't buy our way out of it with gizmos either. We actually have to learn to do things differently, basic things our grandparents took for granted.
It is remarkable that life tasks that used to be considered "normal," like putting up food for the winter, are now seen as a part of some bizarre cult.
I see a lot of people frozen and fearing the worst, like dieoff. When they actually start to do the pragmatic, hassle-filled planning that is required, the depression seems to lift, even if the awareness of what's possible doesn't. The future won't be very kind to those who said "I knew I should have done something constructive, but I just didn't have it in me to know where to start." As a psychologist, speaking to people just like this, blown away by their awareness of what's coming, I say "Start anywhere, just get moving." Even most of whom are planning to hold up in their bunkers will come to realize that it's an unworkable plan. We need each other, regardless of how annoying we find one another. We'll also find, as Rawles has said, a fascinating bunch of bedfellows, and recognize that, instead of a left-right line of "conservatives" and "progressives" we'll find more of a circle of opinions, none of which will be more important than the activities we'll all engage in together.
I really liked hearing from both Jim's. Thanks for launching this discussion on this wonderful site.
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» RE: Kathy McMahon
Posted by: kegbot1
» Yes, odd that preparation became bizarre, and easy things like composting are now complicated
Posted by: Beck
» Exactly... how many even have...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Kathy McMahon
Posted by: Kafwood
» RE: Kathy McMahon
Posted by: snorkeeeee
» Let's start out by reforming the zoning laws and ending the drug wars.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Kathy McMahon
Posted by: Lauren
» Peak oil is bogus.
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kegbot1 on Jul 26, 2008 5:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is too difficult with the space afforded this piece to really get a handle on the situation. I would have also talked to Alex Jones (largest radio audience among survivalists) as well.
I think there are as many explanations and scenarios as to what may happen as people's imaginations can muster.
If we assume that Very Bad Things are going to happen, then the biggest wildcard will be the extent to which the Federal government can maintain control over the country. I do feel our only hope is if they lose control over most of the country - then local communities and perhaps even whole states can work for local solutions. In any case, it won't be pretty and there will be monumental difficulties to overcome but I'd rather have a nation of confederations working cooperatively than top down fascism which cares little for average people.
The second biggest factor to me is the ability of the American mind to wrap itself around the shocks that are coming. I do not foresee any reason for optimism here. I think people will be rendered mentally and psychologically helpless before they are materially helpless.
This makes my first two points important in tandem - a population that has been conditioned to be willfully helpless is going to run full speed into the arms of their government.
Which leads to factor three - localized communities could band together under a cooperative/survivalist ethic but be demonized by a Federal government which will try to crush those movements and bring them to heel with the support of the people who will be told the 'cooperatives' are hoarding food and supplies meant for the broader populations.
Starvation does strange things to otherwise normal people.
If people in this country really knew what was behind all of this they would not be so anxious to place their faith in their government. But we haven't been taught to have faith in ourselves.
Which leads to the other problem -- we have not been conditioned to work cooperatively with each other. Our whole national ethic is 'every person for themselves' and 'you're on your own.' In the age of the lawsuit and the crime show, we have been condition to have a deep and abiding fear and mistrust of our fellow citizens. This, above all, does not bode well for our future under such economic, political and social strains.
Like Marley's ghost if you're looking for comforting words, I sadly have none to give.
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» RE: All over the map
Posted by: harryf200
» RE: All over the map
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: All over the map
Posted by: dirtycrumbs
» RE: All over the map
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: All over the map
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: All over the map
Posted by: kegbot1
» RE: All over the map
Posted by: Dboy
» The whole world starts on your back porch...
Posted by: grammasanity
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Lily H. on Jul 26, 2008 6:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
others! As a conscientious and curious citizen, I used
to attend my area's yearly Preparedness Expos held
each year at my local fairgrounds. Admittedly, I was
of two minds about these groups - first, the gun nuts
and anti-government types were in force, and second,
the back-to-the-landers were attractive what with all
their ingenious ideas to sustain oneself off the grid.
While strolling through the anti-gov't sections, I
wondered "Are ANY of these folks on the level or are
they ALL crazy?" It was at one of these events that
I first saw a blueprint of the supposed "detention
camps" being set up by the military which, naturally,
got the wheels turning, so to speak.
Oddly enough, soon after my last visit to this event,
they suddenly stopped appearing in my area, and I
phoned to inquire if they would be returning..
I was told they would not. Even this turn set me to
query, "Hmmm...why would the Expos suddenly STOP
coming to my area? Could there possibly be a reason
for those in power to influence various venues to
cease leasing to those involved in such?" Interesting
point to consider -- if anyone else here has noticed
a sudden drop-off in Preparedness Expos, please reply.
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» RE: Where Have All The Preparedness Expos Gone?
Posted by: dmann
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Posted by: dutchfarm on Jul 26, 2008 6:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: dutchfarm
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: REX 84
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hagwind on Jul 26, 2008 6:27 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just in case anyone was wondering why the Old Testament is still popular after all these years . . .
P.S. The Parable of the Sower and The Parable of the Talents, by the late Octavia Butler, hold up very well if you're looking for plausible visions of people improvising solutions to the collapse of U.S. society (West Coast division).
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» The central character in the story..
Posted by: Bbear41
» RE: The central character in the story..
Posted by: Lauren
» What I meant was...
Posted by: Bbear41
Comments are closed-
Posted by: European American on Jul 26, 2008 6:27 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What do you think will happen to the section 8 crowd? Middle America already ignores the poor. Do you think the subdivision turned co opt farm will warmly receive browns looking for yet another hand out? Do you know how owns the majority of legal firearms? White college educated males.
The reckoning is nigh.
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» Methinks I’ll also farm Cannabis…
Posted by: European American
» 26000 INDUSTRIAL USES of Cannabis and you're gonna need it alright.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: What makes YOU naively think that it's the white suburb that will HAVE the co-op?
Posted by: European American
» There is no real middle class in America. This isn't the 1970s you know.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: There is no real middle class in America. This isn't the 1970s you know.
Posted by: European American
» RE: TSO CALLED MIDDLE CLASS IS NOT A MIDDLE CLASS-AND IS A CODE WORD FOR SOEMTHING ELSE.
Posted by: avatar_singh
» RE: There is no real middle class in America. This isn't the 1970s you know.
Posted by: anonymous black writer
» RE: What makes YOU naively think that it's the white suburb that will HAVE the co-op?
Posted by: anonymous black writer
» BTW, Guns are food.
Posted by: European American
» Guns are metal, not food.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Guns are metal, not food.
Posted by: European American
» RE: Guns are metal, not food. Also guns are not made in nature, DUH !
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Guns are metal, not food. Also guns are not made in nature, DUH !
Posted by: harryf200
» RE: Guns are metal, not food. Also guns are not made in nature, DUH !
Posted by: john mont
» RE: What makes YOU naively think that it's the white suburb that will HAVE the co-op?
Posted by: tkwilson
» RE: You’ll Be Wishing Y’all Lived in a Southern Lilly White Suburb.
Posted by: avatar_singh
» RE: Y’all in "lilly white suburbs" won't be spared
Posted by: xi_people
» What about my muzzle loader, Bow, cross bow or Kuk
Posted by: European American
» And where are you gonna get them materials to do it?
Posted by: maxpayne
» You’ll Be Wishing Y’all Lived in a Southern Lilly White Suburb -- you are semi-correct
Posted by: Democratic Socialist
» RE: You’ll Be Wishing Y’all Lived in a Southern Lilly White Suburb.
Posted by: anonymous black writer
» ACTUALLY Mexican traditional...
Posted by: Bbear41
» RE: ACTUALLY Mexican traditional...
Posted by: Lauren
» In order to survive, trust will be key
Posted by: Bobsays
Comments are closed-
Posted by: djnoll on Jul 26, 2008 6:28 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a survivalist in the sense that for over 15 years now I have warned people of the Perfect Storm that was coming - economic collapse, climate change, and an aging population. We are now facing all three, and this is just the beginning. Many of those who have the skills to teach us how to think, to grow healthy real food, build homes that last for years, and to create localized economies of small sustainable businesses are dying. They are not the baby boomers, they are our parents. Our children know that we need to change - just watch and listen to the crowds at WALL-E. Children are closer to nature and they understand, but they do not have the skills we need. They say that only the elderly and children fight in revolutions, so maybe for this revolution it is time for the rest of us to step up to the plate. It is time to give up manicured lawns in favor of vegetable gardens and orchards; cars for public transportation or walking; neighborhood gatherings instead of TV and a pizza. It is time to stop pursuing the all mighty dollar and the next great toy, and start paying off our debt and saving our money under the mattress. But mostly why not work with your neighbors to build a sense of neighborhood and community based on trusting each other as a way of learning to work together to solve some of the problems now before it becomes a crisis in your town.
Survival is now and always has been a collective effort, something many of us have forsaken for the sake of modern interests. We need to return to what our grandparents knew - without each other, we have nothing, and no reason to survive. Meet your neighbors, talk about the things happening in your communities, and talk about how you want make changes, then organize, pick a good leader that everyone trusts and who trusts everyone to do their best, and then work to make sure that your towns and cities are self-sufficient and self-sustaining. It can be done, it must be done, because the Perfect Storm is starting and we have very little time left to change before it hits us full force.
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» RE: The answer lies in trust
Posted by: edgeofnowhere
» RE: The answer lies in trust
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: The answer lies in trust- and the willingness to work
Posted by: grammasanity
» RE: The answer lies in trust- and the willingness to work
Posted by: djnoll
Comments are closed-
Posted by: MSharp on Jul 26, 2008 6:31 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
who are dependent on malls and big box
stores such as Wal-Mart and Best Buy.
Because they were
not taught real survival skills
in high school or college, the
chance of them surviving without
these resources are very slim.
There will be many grasshoppers
and very few ants.
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» Better find a former Soldier/Marine turned Neighborhood Gun Nut…
Posted by: European American
» Only rightwing motherfuckers "trust" gun nuts to serve them.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Only rightwing motherfuckers "trust" gun nuts to serve them.
Posted by: harryf200
» RE: Better find a former Soldier/Marine turned Neighborhood Gun Nut…
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Grasshopper or Ant?
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: williameon on Jul 26, 2008 6:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let them live alone in
The Hell they have created.
Pod people insulated from the rest of the World
I envision something else.
FREEDOM,
Choice!
The Green Revolution and a Renaissance
Upgrade the Bill of Rights to include these new unalienable Human Rights:
The Right to:
Clean Air
Pure Water
Health Care
A living wage
Organic locally grown Foods
Green: Energy, Transportation, Homes, Schools and Shopping.
Efficiency instead of extravagance
Recyclable instead of wasteful.
A Totally locally owned and operated Media.
Let's Reaffirm our commitment to these positive progressive creative ideals:
Peace, Patience, Cooperation, Brotherly Love, Compassion, Healing and Helpfulness.
We are here for a reason.
Now is our Time!
This is the task.
These are the tools.
Start where you are and use them.
Let’s take a few baby steps together
Towards a brighter, cleaner tomorrow.
Peace, Survival, Health and Prosperity for ALL!
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» RE: The False God GREED brought us here, What will save us? Right On!
Posted by: angel2shine
» Here's some more rights.
Posted by: gellero1
» RE: Here's some more rights.
Posted by: maxpayne
» The Corpirates want a piece of the Action! Cut them off!
Posted by: williameon
» Ah, willy - if only.
Posted by: thekidde
Comments are closed-
Posted by: drricklippin on Jul 26, 2008 7:09 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Three questions?
-What risks are the most real in your own opinion?
-How likely is it that the risk(s) you choose are indeed catastrophic?
-When will the catastrophe become manifest?
Thanks for any input
Rick Lippin
ralippin@aol.com
The Perception of Risk is Tricky Business.
There seems to be a "catastrophe zeitgeist" going through the culture. Then you have the self destruction vs imposed by organized enemy debate or unstable loner individual act debate
-Economic collapse? (If China calls in its huge debt we have to them?)
-Environmental collapse? (Is Al Gore right?)
-Biblical Prophecy of last days from some religious fundamentalists
-Bio-agent catastrophe? (Pandemic flu-natural or anthrax-weaponized by enemy)
-Chemical? (self generated environmental poisoning vs enemy chemical agent attack)
-Nuclear bomb or other radiologic event? (dirty or suitcase bomb)
-Explosive devices? (Non- radiologic bombs)
-others?
Right now with North Korea going nuclear and possibly Iran and the ease of constructing a small nuclear device the betting is on some sort radiologic event.
But within 6 months the focus may change?
With limited resources where do we put our training and prep dollars? It seems we sure were caught blind by 9/11 and Katrina? One enemy imposed -the other natural. Very real catastrophes -not hypothetical.
Dr. Rick Lippin
October 2006
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» RE: Catastrophe Zeitgeist Persists
Posted by: Old Skeptic
» RE: Catastrophe Zeitgeist Persists
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Catastrophe Zeitgeist Persists
Posted by: Lauren
» Something I just learned today and didn't know.......
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: cjwirth on Jul 26, 2008 7:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
According to energy investment banker Matthew Simmons, global oil production is now declining, from 85 million barrels per day to 60 million barrels per day by 2015. During the same time demand will increase 14%.
This is like a 45% drop in 7 years. No one can reverse this trend, nor can we conserve our way out of this catastrophe. Because the demand for oil is so high, it will always be higher than production; thus the depletion rate will continue until all recoverable oil is extracted.
Alternatives will not even begin to fill the gap. And most alternatives yield electric power, but we need liquid fuels for tractors/combines, 18 wheel trucks, trains, ships, and mining equipment.
We are facing the collapse of the highways that depend on diesel trucks for maintenance of bridges, cleaning culverts to avoid road washouts, snow plowing, roadbed and surface repair. When the highways fail, so will the power grid, as highways carry the parts, transformers, steel for pylons, and high tension cables, all from far away. With the highways out, there will be no food coming in from "outside," and without the power grid virtually nothing works, including home heating, pumping of gasoline and diesel, airports, communications, and automated systems.
This is documented in a free 48 page report that can be downloaded, website posted, distributed, and emailed: http://www.peakoilassociates.com/POAnalysis.html
I used to live in NH, but moved to a safer place. Anyone interested in relocating to a nice, pretty, sustainable area, good climate with much rain and good soil?
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» RE: President< Peak Oil Associates International
Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» RE: President< Peak Oil Associates International
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: President< Peak Oil Associates International
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: President< Peak Oil Associates International
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: President< Peak Oil Associates International
Posted by: Dboy
» Demand doesn't always go up unless you allow it to. The less oil, the less the demand will be.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: President< Peak Oil Associates International
Posted by: wildwestspace
» RE: President< Peak Oil Associates International
Posted by: DaPoorChimp
» RE: President< Peak Oil Associates International
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» RE: President< Peak Oil Associates International
Posted by: Lauren
» Well, here is a surprise for you... a letter by the oil CEO's in 2001...
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: vssmith on Jul 26, 2008 7:19 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Jul 26, 2008 7:30 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
JT
Ultimate Anonymity
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» Your right on most of this, but unfortunately you will have to ....
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: DivadNhoj on Jul 26, 2008 7:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Wanna Hear the Painful Truth?
Posted by: Dboy
» We ARE a third world country.
Posted by: pangolin
» The painful truth is we haven't had real capitalism and free markets....
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: edgeofnowhere on Jul 26, 2008 7:32 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Have enough basic food for 6 months (rice, beans, canned tomatoes, cooking oil, tuna, spices, coffee, salt for curing, sugar and honey, t-paper, booze etc. Have a wood stove for heat and/or cooking just in case there is no conventional fuel. Keep at least a good .22 with a scope and plenty of ammo, and a 12 ga. Grow a garden and if you have any room, you might consider raising rabbits (my favorite), chickens or goats. If you are living in the city, good luck to you.
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» RE: Semper preparatus
Posted by: Dboy
» Don't forget oil. We must have salt and oil to survive and we ...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Don't forget oil. We must have salt and oil to survive and we ...
Posted by: djnoll
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Posted by: Philip Newton on Jul 26, 2008 7:37 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course, now their MREs and bottled water are stale and they have a whopping credit card balance. (No idea if it's from buying all that stuff or not, but they are "stuff" people.)
I also feel a coming series of crises, and of course we are in one now, and it's getting worse. These people are precisely, 180 degrees wrong, for the reasons the author states. We will exist by coming together, not flying apart, as thousands of isolated, miserable and frightened survivalists would tell you -- if they could admit their grave errors and come outta their bunkers.
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» Capable people in homogenous communities will come together
Posted by: European American
» Know who's worthless?
Posted by: xi_people
» RE: Capable people in homogenous communities will come together
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» get your head out of the sand - man
Posted by: toddcory
» RE: Getcher maps here, folks!
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Getcher maps here, folks!
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Getcher maps here, folks!
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Getcher maps here, folks!
Posted by: praedor
» RE: Getcher maps here, folks!
Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: Getcher maps here, folks!
Posted by: camanokat
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Posted by: Bbear41 on Jul 26, 2008 7:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Yes, I realize...
Posted by: Bbear41
» RE: obert Heinlein wrote...
Posted by: ranchero42
» RE: obert Heinlein wrote...
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: HughScott on Jul 26, 2008 8:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unfortunately for America's middleclass and working poor, the Bush administration dropped interest rates prematurely to sustain a smoke-and-mirror economy for political gain. Tax breaks for the rich during wartime didn't help matters, either.
Now, as George W. is about to retire and inherit mega-millions from his daddy's neocon-controlled, war-profiteering Carlyle Group, all we can do is blame ourselves for letting greedy Republican and Democratic politicians in Congress bankrupt America.
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» And that's why America needs a 3rd/Independent party for a MAJOR change.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: And that's why America needs a 3rd/Independent party for a MAJOR change.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: We're screwed!
Posted by: buzzsaw
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Posted by: Kafwood on Jul 26, 2008 8:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All the work I do (and I've spent many, many hours doing it) is volunteer and directed at helping my community, so I take umbrage at Scott Thill's assertion that being prepared and/or promoting preparedness is somehow anti-community. While I'm happy to see an article on this topic appear on Alternet, I find the sort of broad stroke criticism in this piece not only facile but counter-productive, and yet (sigh) another example of self-defeating leftism.
Community organizers come in many shapes and sizes - and this work does cross the right/left partisan divide. As in any social mov't (yes! that is what this is), the folks doing the grassroots work aren't getting the headlines. Thill should have taken the time to check out the many organizations listed with PostCarbon.org or Transition Communities, for example to lend more balance to his story.
There has been quite a shift in the few short years of doing this work. When I first began I was nervous and a bit self-conscious about my intentions being misinterpreted by the larger community, but my experience as an anti-war activist helped me get over my own fears of being ridiculed and sticking to the truth as I saw it. During the first year when I did public outreach occasionally someone would challenge me by suggesting I was promoting "hoarding" or "survivalism," even though almost all of what I was presenting were prudent lifestyle practices my grandparents took for granted. Now, I'm being asked to speak and write about short-term preparedness, new kitchen designs, root cellars, food preservation techniques and water storage. And the PreparedTompkins.org booth at this year's Earth Day celebration was packed with visitors looking for practical advice on where to begin transitioning for the times ahead.
We need more prepared community activists willing to take on not just the existential realities of the post-carbon era (which is defining this century) but more people putting their shoulders to wheel to do what needs to be done. I'd like to encourage people who might be sitting on the fence about taking on preparedness work to jump in - and bring your soical conscience with you.
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» RE: Prepared Localism IS Community
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Prepared Localism IS Community
Posted by: govindas
» RE: Prepared Localism IS Community- thank you for saying it so well.
Posted by: grammasanity
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Posted by: sirios on Jul 26, 2008 8:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: CIAO!
Posted by: DaPoorChimp
» RE: CIAO!
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: CIAO!
Posted by: DaPoorChimp
» RE: CIAO!
Posted by: Dboy
» Before WWII an Australian...
Posted by: Bbear41
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Posted by: oregoncharles on Jul 26, 2008 8:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Callenbach also deserves credit for an alarmingly accurate prediction: in his follow-up book, Ecotopia Emerging, he describes the process by which Ecotopia seceded. A key requirement: the US is entangled in an oil war in the Middle East, and essentially decides that the oil is more important than the Pacific NW. Sound familiar?
The other key requirement, besides a tremendous amount of on-the-ground organizing: the secessionists get hold of nuclear weapons and leave one lying around in Washington, D.C. Let's hope that one isn't so prescient. It certainly indicates how practical he thinks secession really is.
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» Always Coming Home
Posted by: grammasanity
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Posted by: Gravitas on Jul 26, 2008 8:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Hey Gravitas
Posted by: 113121
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Posted by: Jasonix on Jul 26, 2008 9:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For me, this has involved learning to identify edible plants, learning about natural agriculture (unlike the high-irrigation, high-intensity agriculture that most folks are unwittingly practicing in their gardens now, which will no longer be tenable once water and fertilizer are in short supply), and learning the basics of hunting and trapping. It also involves getting in truly good physical condition (i.e., being able to swim 25 laps is a much better indicator of genuine physical health than having overly-large muscles that depend on chemical supplements, and while you have the option, you should detox your body from crappy fast food and eat lots of fruits, veggies, nuts, and a moderate amount of lean meat to harden and strengthen yourself) and learning your capacities as a human being. Learn hand-to-hand combat skills - I recommend Krav Maga or the U.S. military's Close Quarters Combat system.
Most importantly, you should have some form of community. Unfortunately, this is probably the hardest to come by in today's America. All the usual venues fail to provide it. The churches are little more than entertainment at this point. The once vibrant civic organizations have disappeared almost entirely. No one's life has any local dimension anymore; one's friends are liable to scattered in a 100 mile radius. But when this crap really starts to hit the fan, this will be the most important thing. Rural places have the best chance of pulling together.
That said, I think true social break-down will take more than just Peak Oil. We don't generate electricity with gas or oil, much, as it is now, so more than likely there will still be electricity supplied by coal in the future - transportation is what will crash as a result of peak oil, and food may become very expensive. The government will be firmly pressed to prevent hunger from causing a full-out revolt. If there is something else on top of peak oil, like nuclear terrorism or an avian flu epidemic, than I think we could see the end of functioning government.
So, assuming there is nothing but peak oil and the mortgage collapse, it's still a good idea to learn how to garden in order to off-set what's likely a non-stop run-up in the price of food. If there is another calamity on top of these two, then things might totally collapse.
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» RE: True survivalism means discipline and skills, not just stocking up food and ammo
Posted by: snorkeeeee
» True that, the gun toters never listen every time we tell them.
Posted by: maxpayne
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Posted by: sre on Jul 26, 2008 9:19 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: nothing's wrong
Posted by: sirios
» RE: nothing's wrong- And If Anybody TRULY Believes That....
Posted by: Animal
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Posted by: david.model@senecac.on.ca on Jul 26, 2008 9:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are solutions to all these problems but it seems that the canary in the coal mine doesn't sing loud enough to save everyone. Although people may be aware of some of these problems, they don't seem to want to take action until directly impacted by one of them. Part of that problem is that too many people are not yet aware that they have been impacted. For example, tropical storms are often caused by global warming and are not just a natural phenomenom.
The critical question is about the devestation necessary before people are be aroused from their apathetic slumber. Will there still be enough time?
http://www.stateofdarkness.com
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» RE: THE CANARY IN THE COAL MINE doesn't sing:
Posted by: oregoncharles
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Posted by: sre on Jul 26, 2008 9:34 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» This is the kind of ignorance that results when sre the frog is placed in lukewarm water and slowly
Posted by: maxpayne
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Posted by: Menopausal Mick on Jul 26, 2008 9:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We faced Eminent Domain on two different properties in the last five years. We lived in the country but near a very large city. We got tired of having our land stolen to further corporate greed and we moved to a remote area and are learning to be self-sufficient and to live in harmony with the land.
I learned to can food this week. I can't cook. I hate the kitchen and it hates me back but I was able to learn to can food. The pressure cooker didn't even blow up! If I can do it, anyone can. It is amazing what human beings can learn given the proper motivation. Current events give motivation if nothing else.
Is my move to the wilderness a survivalistic desire to hide out? hmm.. well, I watched what can happen to civilization when the infrastructure disappears. I watched the aftermath of Katrina. About three days after the storm, the desperation of the survivors produced urban nightmarish situations and events. So, a little distancing from large urban sites isn't all that much of a crackpot idea in my view.
I look at it this way... If by some miracle things miraculously get better in the half a dozen areas that are about a gnat's arse from going wackaloon, then the skills we are learning are still excellant knowledge and abilities to acquire. It isn't wasted effort to learn to produce all of our food and as much of our energy as we can manage.
For people still living the urban life, have a backyard garden. Gardening is very calming and good for your health anyway. It's a win/win pursuit. Build a backyard worm farm with a large plastic bin and shreaded paper and a bit of sand and a bit of organic earth. You can buy the worms online for under thirty dollars and they will compost your kitchen refuse in about a third of the time of traditional compost methods and produce lovely worm castings for your soil. Google "vermiculture". There are tons of sites with decent instructions for an inexpensive self-made worm farm.
There are many many simple activities that will move one to a more self-sufficient way of life whether your home is in the wilderness or downtown Manhattan.
My question is...why would one fail to become more self-sufficient?
Mick
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Posted by: willymack on Jul 26, 2008 9:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: DaPoorChimp on Jul 26, 2008 9:52 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I like Alternet, but I feel the need to limit my exposure to it and sites like it, as they seem to delight in masturbatory expositions of hopelessly bad news. Feels so good to feel so bad?
It's a good place to come to fulfill one's daily quota of confirmation bias (q.v.): Oh it's all so terribly terribly hopeless in oh so many ways! And, (oh, deep, dark delight!!), even in ways I'd never have imagined on my own!
I speak here as a three decade veteran (Ret.) of an Armageddon-obsessed religious cult, so I know from long personal experience about the power of exposure to and faith in information from too few or insufficiently diversified sources. Years and years trying to read the signs of the End Times into every little tidbit of news we could lay hands on. No preparation for the future (savings, education etc.), since there wasn't going to be one. Well, at least not one in which sound financial, educational or professional planning and effort would benefit one.
Hey, people, it IS possible that this is all gonna go bad, very, very bad. It's also possible that this will happen soon, very, very soon. It IS indeed possible that we're, as it were, latter-day inhabitants of the Roman Empire, circa 475 A.D. (The generally accepted date of the collapse of the Roman Empire being 476 A.D.). We COULD all, or mostly, be verily screwed, and that quite soon.
However---take those deep breaths I advised a few sentences ago---it's also possible that we're NOT! It's possible we'll find our way out of the various messes with no, or minimal, disruption of planetary civilization (OK, OK, such as it is), let alone its catastrophic and utter collapse. And, even if it's not possible to avoid completely The Big Hurt, we may be able to contain and minimize its destructive effects. Hey, it's conceivable that BILLIONS of people will survive, quite intact. Imagine that! We just MAY find the resourcefulness and determination to switch to more sustainable forms of energy, food and potable water production and general living. We may actually figure out, work out, a modus vivendi, or a whole pile of modi vivendi, which permit civilization (I'll assume that most of us here regard civilization a generally good thing) to survive and even thrive. After all, along with being perhaps insufficiently far removed yet from our red-in-tooth-and-claw ancestry, we're also a very tough and clever species.....
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» RE: An Appetite For Destruction? Part I
Posted by: scienceisnotconsensus
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Posted by: alturn on Jul 26, 2008 9:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A local-activist-turned-politician once said a person is one disaster that effects them directly from becoming an activist. This conflaguration of events is about to turn all of the people of the world into activists. Some will fend for themselves, but most will likely understand that we are in a new time where divisions are not the answer, finding unity and realizing interdependence is.
Benjamin Creme has long articulated a different scenario than the survivalists. That a collective voice of the world's people will emerge to counter division and demand sharing, justice and cooperation. That this voice will be seen as the voice of wisdom and will forge a new direction for a humanity that is ready to take the next evolutionary step - one that recognizes that love and service to others and the planet is the prized medium of exchange.
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» RE: Perfect storm yes, yet other future directions are worth considering
Posted by: snorkeeeee
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Posted by: DaPoorChimp on Jul 26, 2008 10:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And, if you're one of those---and I just KNOW you're out there---who finds him/her-self depressed, dismayed or disheartened by so much as the mere speculation that The End may not come, think on that for a while too. Really...think on WHY you're so invested in the notion of Collapse.
My final point in this somewhat discursive essay is that NO ONE knows the future; neither corporate fatcats nor armed-to-the-teeth survivalists nor preachers nor philosophers nor scientists nor fervent believers nor fervent unbelievers has anything but guesses to offer regarding what the future holds.
When I first became exposed to my aforementioned Armageddon-obsessed cult in the late sixties, we were oft assured by our fearless leader (now long deceased) that the Big Events would be occurring in "the next 10 to 15 years". I don't recall ever hearing a prediction past 30 years, and most were in that 10-15 years time frame.
I believed it, and many thousands of my fellow cult members did also, and we structured our lives accordingly.
And, oh, our leader assured us he had to be right because he was speaking, not of himself, but rather under inspiration of none other than the Holy Spirit!
Talk about the Big Guns.
And, oh, by the way, that 30 year outside estimate/prediction? Well, it passed about ten years ago. Obviously, the 10-15 time frame fared even worse when contrasted with reality.
Shucks! Really shoulda continued that education and started a savings plan a bit earlier I guess.
My general inclination these days, convinced as I am that no one can reliably predict the future, is that we may just as well work for the very finest one we can imagine. And hope for the best. I mean, why not?
Peace and long life.
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» RE: An Appetite For Destruction? Part II
Posted by: bcgirl125
» I agree, bcgirl
Posted by: Democratic Socialist
» RE: I agree, bcgirl
Posted by: DaPoorChimp
» RE: I agree, bcgirl
Posted by: kegbot1
» RE: An Appetite For Destruction? Part II
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» RE: An Appetite For Destruction? Part II
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
Comments are closed-
Posted by: DaPoorChimp on Jul 26, 2008 10:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyways, nice to see an entry like alturn's, right there between the two sections of mine. A little optimism is a good thing, even though pessimism sometimes seems, like the dark side of the Force, easier, more seductive.
Peace and long life. And may the Force (you know, the Jedi side. Mostly anyway) be with you.
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Posted by: DaPoorChimp on Jul 26, 2008 10:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now if you'll all excuse me, I've got to get that hose from my car's exhaust pipe out of the damn bathroom window before the neighbors notice it.....
P&LL
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» As I would always tell the visiting Jehovah's Witnesses...
Posted by: stellabloo
» RE: As I would always tell the visiting Jehovah's Witnesses...
Posted by: camanokat
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Posted by: Annapurna1 on Jul 26, 2008 11:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
in the neocon depression..however..the economy does not decline but continues to expand at a breakneck pace..while poverty expands just as rapidly...those who fall into the latter category see the depression for what it is.. but it will never officially exist...(i should also point out the inherent inefficiency in producing wealth that ppl cant afford to buy)...
as such..there will be no economic catastrophe that will dethrone the neocons and start some kind of global apocalypse.. because the neocons are the apocalypse.. and they will cause at least as much suffering and death as a global nuclear war would have...
i wont be around in the 22nd century to find out if neoconservatism has morphed into something more constructive by then..but im more than a bit skeptical about this prospect...and even if that does turn out to be the case..it will by no means excuse the actions of the neocons in the coming century...
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Posted by: snorkeeeee on Jul 26, 2008 12:57 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Something Happening Here.net
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» Good points
Posted by: Democratic Socialist
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Posted by: bcgirl125 on Jul 26, 2008 1:16 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Orlov is great -- here is the link
Posted by: Democratic Socialist
» RE: Orlov is great -- here is the link
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: Democratic Socialist on Jul 26, 2008 1:31 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I like Kunstler's message, but he isn't much help considering he generally doesn't practice what he preaces but spends his time jetting around North America to preach his apocalyptic message and hanging out in his hippy-laden hometown of Saratoga Springs, NY smoking pot, writing novels, and eating IMPORTED organic food along with all of the other aging hippies.
My view is that people need to avoid the unsustainable cities and head back out to the countryside and/or small towns and repopulate it/them. We need to rebuild and repopulate all of the small and medium-sized towns, villages, and rural areas and relearn the host of necessary skills needed to be independent, successful, and cohesive communities just as we used to be before the post-WWII rise of suburbia and America's mega-cities.
We need to rebuild an extensive, tight-knit network of linked small towns/villages and rural areas across America and Canada where we can all work together toward common communal goals, just as it used to be in pre-WWII America, Canada, Europe, Australia, and other Western countries. Additionally, modern technology like the internet can only improve communication, cooperation, and networking opportunities.
If case you haven't noticed this already, let me spell it out clearly: people in cities are utter slaves to The System more than anyone else because they are so dependent on it for nearly all of their needs. Nearly all necessities are imported in to cities from the countryside, and city-dwellers are basically helpless because they depend on The System for even the most basic things like water/food, shelter, electricity, etc. Most life-long city-dwellers (nearly all of them "liberals") are often helplessly dependent types -- they are generally clueless, mollycoddled, lazy, decadent, and prone to mass-hysteria and violence should a crisis or series of crises break out since they no longer know any basic survival skills (and again, there really is no true independence or control of your own destiny in cities because nearly everything is imported in to them).
Out in the countryside though you and your family/group/community are largely responsible for your own destiny. As long as you have the skills and determination, along with a strong community network, you and your family/community can become much less dependent on The System for all of your needs, i.e. you are more able to control how you want to live your life. It is clear that people in cities are generally dependent CONSUMERS (importers) while people in the countryside are generally self/communally-reliant PRODUCERS (exporters) -- which do you prefer to be?
Out in the countryside you can enjoy the beauty of nature and be good stewards of the land (in cities, however, it's all terrible gray concrete and ugly steel); you can avoid pollution, crime, dependence, ethnic/racial strife, and the other pitfalls of urban living; you can rebuild your own schools and other cultural institutions and avoid being indoctrinated and controlled by an overwhelming central government which is run by one-world internationalists, open-borders types, and greedy free-traders; you can set up our own independent media systems, non-corrupt local governments, and strong regional economies; and you can become more self and communally sufficient by relearning critical skills like agriculture, water and soil management, construction, carpentry/forestry, animal husbandry, hunting/foraging, and many other indispensable trades, skills, and occupations which are necessary for long-term survival and cultural continuity but have since been lost as people have been herded in to the cities and suburbs in the past few decades.
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» RE: Silly liberals -- cities are for idiots...
Posted by: Romantic Violence
» It's not a coincidence that the word "civilization" comes from the Latin word for "city"...
Posted by: mjabele
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Posted by: 2NDLTUSMC on Jul 26, 2008 4:22 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I raised my children to respect others and to shoot. Guns are what kept this country free. If it where not for the people to fight back, then they would have been in slaved. I think you need to read real history, not the crap they taught you in school. The not so real history they teach today. Yes, we will survive.
and as for you, you will follow what ever someone tells you. Like lambs to the chopping block. Just put your head down and wait for the blow to the neck.
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Posted by: harryf200 on Jul 26, 2008 6:05 PM
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Just give me a gun and one bullet - you can have the gun back later.
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» RE: Federal Government or local War Lords?
Posted by: Dboy
» Why, Have You Heard Something I Haven't?
Posted by: ranchero42
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Posted by: phoenix redhawk on Jul 26, 2008 7:00 PM
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Survivalism is an everyday human operation, but not limited to humans. Some folks are better at survival than others, but .9999% work at it.
The American Indians failed to meet the challenge of western civilization and thus they nearly disappeared off the landscape, but with the introduction of casinos they are making a come back and their survivalism has taken hold. Good for them. Unfortunately they are striving to restore the old paradigm instead of entering a new and dynamic prosperity....too bad. They got to give up the one with the earth crap. Casinos are not one with the earth got that?
Back to the modern day survivalists. They see the warning signs and they are responding. For those who fail to prepare they will go into a survival mode once the dooh dooh hits the fan, but much like the American Indians it will be too little too late.
America will survive and the nation will be better for the hardship. There will be the late survivalists that will make it and they will often talk about the Great American Depression of 2009. 2009 is the magic year folks. Bolt down the hatches and pay off your debts if you can or prepare a bankruptcy that will protect your hard earned assets. Don't allow anyone to just come and take your property, especially the corrupt bankers that created the problem and then perpetuated the fraud. If I wasn't such a nice guy I would suggest that we hang the bankers and the lawyers and a few politicians right along side them for good measure, but that wouldn't be very nice now would it?
Do you guys really think Obama is sane? I know McCain is a nut cake, but folks don't be fooled Obama is just as bad! We allowed the best candidate to get away...Ron Paul...ugh!
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» RE: Survivalism is Nothing New
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: Reader11722 on Jul 26, 2008 10:00 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They violate the 1st Amendment by opening mail, caging demonstrators and banning books like America Deceived (book) from Amazon.
They violate the 2nd Amendment by confiscating guns during Katrina.
They violate the 4th Amendment by conducting warrant-less wiretaps.
They violate the 5th and 6th Amendment by suspending habeas corpus.
They violate the 8th Amendment by torturing.
They violate the entire Constitution by starting 2 illegal wars based on lies and on behalf of a foriegn gov't.
Support Dr. Ron Paul and save this great country.
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» RE: Time to survive
Posted by: DaPoorChimp
» RE: Time to survive
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: ranchero42 on Jul 26, 2008 10:21 PM
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Posted by: GeorgeSalt on Jul 26, 2008 10:34 PM
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Posted by: govindas on Jul 26, 2008 10:53 PM
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Due to intensive chemical agriculture,the soil will also react by refusing to yield food...as it is so poisoned!
It is now the turn of India,vietnam,Africa to enjoy life through new economic and prosperous life!
http://varnasrama.org [localized organic agricultural villages]
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» RE: Predictions for the next 20 yrs.
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: Buckshot00 on Jul 26, 2008 11:02 PM
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Posted by: Turiye on Jul 26, 2008 11:45 PM
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Posted by: SevenStarHand on Jul 27, 2008 1:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All of these disaster scenarios flow from one assumption; that people will forever remain too dumb to realize that the reliance upon and existence of money is the root cause of the problem, not a solution. What we are actually heading towards is a new civilization founded upon wisdom and cooperation, instead of the delusion and folly of the ancient deception known as money.
We now have the opportunity to realize that it will be easier to transition to a civilization and societal model that guarantees everyone is cared for, with a home, food, medical care, etc. And were not talking about communism or some other negative result. The illusory barriers erected by the brain-dead reliance upon money, instead of wisdom and cooperation, can be removed. Likewise, the times of relying upon evil and greedy leaders who rule with and because of money can be thrown to trash heap of history. We now finally have the incentive and the experience to think outside of the proverbial box and kick the bums out forever.
This is the long-awaited chance for true freedom, not fear and disaster...
Money is the lifeblood of the powerful and the chains and key to human enslavement...
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» RE: There is one radical solution that will proactively prevent disaster...
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: Old Skeptic on Jul 27, 2008 4:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Were the ancient Maya right?
Posted by: richholland
» RE: Were the ancient Maya right?
Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale
» RE: Were the ancient Maya right?
Posted by: Old Skeptic
» RE: Were the ancient Maya right?
Posted by: harryf200
» Ed Cayce predicted...
Posted by: Bbear41
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Posted by: EMB on Jul 27, 2008 4:16 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 27, 2008 5:28 AM
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Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 27, 2008 6:04 AM
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» Re: I lived in a cookie-cutter town where clotheslines were banned
Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale
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Posted by: maxpayne on Jul 27, 2008 6:30 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But what if you don’t have an acre of land? A lot of suburbanites and city-dwellers ask if they can put a small wind turbine on the roof of their home or even their office building, in the style of other green building tactics. This would seem to make sense, as it would prevent the cost of purchasing a tower, and you may say, "That’s where my solar panels are anyway…." However, there are a few important differences between installing a turbine in an open field and on a city rooftop:
* The wind quality is different on a roof or in the city. Rooftop ledges create a lot of turbulence, which makes finding the necessary pockets of fast-moving, dense air more difficult. As a rule of thumb, the hub of a wind turbine should be at least 30 feet higher than anything else in the immediate vicinity to take advantage of the greater wind speeds at greater heights, without interference from trees or buildings.
* Most roofs are not designed to hold the weight of a turbine. Nor are they usually built to withstand the constant vibrations that a spinning object will inevitably send though a building.
* City zoning regulations usually prohibit this type of home improvement (however, the cities of Chicago and San Francisco have recently granting permits for "urban wind" installations).
Reform the zoning laws and get hemp legalized. Buildings made of hemp are not only more environmentally friendly but are also stronger and more durable. This will make it even easier and more secure for wind turbines and solar panels to be installed.
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Posted by: poorighteousteacher on Jul 27, 2008 11:12 AM
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Posted by: Bbear41 on Jul 27, 2008 10:13 PM
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» RE: I have looked into...
Posted by: dannrusso
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Posted by: richholland on Jul 28, 2008 5:20 AM
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But 80% of the people must survive in a CITY.
Think about New York with at least 10 buildings like 9/11.
Read about Berlin 1945, Warzava 1944, London 1944,Bagdad 1991 etc.
Now there is peace and money for a social, medical network but what you will have in a real collaps of civilization???
Where are the books and organizations? So please forget about the romantic barbecue survival.It is survival between corpses and concrete.
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» RE: survival books
Posted by: JERSEYDAN
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Posted by: JakobFabian01 on Jul 28, 2008 4:18 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's possible that after the collapse, the Amish will have the status of peasants and the gun-toting troglodytes will have the status of feudal lords. But I suspect that this new feudalism will not last long. Without planes, bombs, and tanks, the feudal lords will fall, and the rebellious peasants will succeed. The last bullets will be exchanged for seeds.
By the way, I'm not a survivalist. I'm a socialist. I believe it's just possible - not likely, but possible - that we will learn to share our surplus wealth before we waste it all in fighting pointless wars against each other. Rather than achieving equality by means of the "zero solution" of universal subsistence agriculture, we may just manage to preserve a few high-tech conveniences like the Internet, hospitals, libraries, and long-distance transportation.
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Posted by: dayahka on Jul 28, 2008 7:16 PM
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Posted by: Godfather89 on Jul 31, 2008 6:24 AM
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If you are obsessed with short term stimulation than you are impulsive. Impulsiveness is based around emotions and ones current situation. When the bad things finally come most people will surrender whatever liberty they have left for their own security, not knowing that they are walking straight into a full police state.
Those who realize this will be pressured to act with even more haste to preserve the American Constitution in America sparking a real Revolution against this police state.
The ultimate price for ignorance in a once free society such as ours is the lose of liberty. We are screwed because, we ignorantly allowed ourselves to get screwed. We were to busy partying and having fun that we lost sight of what really matters. Now we are going to pay the ultimate price.
The powers that be are more opened about their real actions because, we are ignorant and we actually think everything they do for us is for our best interests.
WELL THE PARTY IS OVER...
THE DRINKS ARE GONE...
ITS TIME TO GET SOBER...
AND REALIZE WHAT WE HAVE DONE...
[We = Sheeple Mentality]
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Posted by: thekidde on Jul 31, 2008 10:38 AM
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Posted by: joaocleitao on Aug 1, 2008 4:47 PM
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We are building a community. A solution for peak oil, financial and economic meltdown, climate change and happiness.
www.relocatenow.eu
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Posted by: Bobsays on Aug 2, 2008 6:52 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: blogbooks on Aug 2, 2008 12:55 PM
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Posted by: sre on Aug 2, 2008 6:54 PM
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Posted by: sre on Aug 3, 2008 6:06 PM
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USA forever!!
We will rule the world. Freedom at the point of the sword is the only way to go. We shall overcome!
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» RE: I've noticed
Posted by: Dianka
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Posted by: Dianka on Aug 20, 2008 12:47 PM
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Since the '80's, America hasn't given a damn about the poor. Our progressive community ignores US poverty, although in recent years, they seem to be seeing the economic hardships of the middle class (remaining oblivious to the vast growth of sub-middle America). When Clinton repealed welfare -- a policy that was central to the growth and stability of America's middle class following WWII -- today's progressive movement yawned with indifference, failing to grasp the impact that these policies would have on average workers. Too bad.
I'm not proud that, when I hear of people losing their jobs, homes, etc., I have the urge to throw back some of the wisdom they previously bestowed upon the poor, like "Get a job! If one doesn't pay enough, get two! Quit whining, get up every morning, work hard and play by all the rules, pull yourself up by the bootstraps, look for a hand up not a handout..." and so on.
But I can't/don't want to do that.. My hope is that we learn a few things along the way. America's poor were never a "them" to our "us". The poor are, and always have been "we the people". When we allow government to strip out the very programs and policies that are, indeed, central to the socio-economic stability of the nation, we are harming ourselves. It's like allowing the foundation of your house to crumble. When a country turns its back on the poor, the nation will collapse.
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Posted by: mmckinl on Jul 26, 2008 12:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Powers that Be have known that there would be these oncoming troubles, they have been analyzed and forecast by the intelligence agencies. The peak oil phenomena was clearly demonstrated in America in 1970 as supply diminished. Was it an accident that the Bankruptcy Act was passed in 2005 or that the privately owned and operated Federal Reserve let the banks go wild for hundreds of billions in short term profits? The after effects of world peak oil are well known to those in the know and they have prepared and the picture isn't pretty. They saw this coming and planned accordingly, virtual debtors prison for tens of millions from mortgage debt and hundreds of billions for those in the know to buy into a corporate survival company or build a compound of their own.
Is there a way out of this mess? Yes, but it entails real taxation of the rich and the elimination of the fractional reserve banking system. Two things they are not about to let happen.
They would rather let the situation dictate war and starvation so that their power base can be preserved to dominate the landscape once the violence and chaos subside. The laws are all in place to bring on a police state. Fisa for complete immunity for surveillance and arrest without cause. Rubber bullets, tasers, tear gas and "pain beam vehicles" to answer crowds.
Look for mass starvation and civil war abroad and malnutrition, homelessness and unemployment at home ...
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» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ...
Posted by: kegbot1
» Only MORONS think like that...
Posted by: Cathyc
» Uh, seen our Prezdint lately?
Posted by: pangolin
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ...
Posted by: BlammDaddy
» RE: The Very Rich .....Their money will be worthless
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» Your tinfoil hat is ready
Posted by: Philip Newton
» You Should Look Up Bohemian Grove
Posted by: Gravitas
» RE: You Should Look Up Bohemian Grove
Posted by: Philip Newton
» Your ignorant tinfoil outlook is past ready
Posted by: PointMan
» RE: Your ignorant tinfoil outlook is past ready
Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: Your thinking hat is ready
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Your thinking hat is ready
Posted by: Philip Newton
» why has this site become so user-unfriendly?
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: thanks, ellie, but guess what? My logging in was refused at least first try...
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Looks more like end times,the closer we get to 2012
Posted by: sasquuatch55
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ...
Posted by: scienceisnotconsensus
» Psychopathic personalities of our "leaders"
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ...
Posted by: bloominblacksheep
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ...
Posted by: scienceisnotconsensus
» Correction: second paragraph
Posted by: scienceisnotconsensus
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ...
Posted by: scienceisnotconsensus
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ...
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ...
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ...
Posted by: scienceisnotconsensus
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ...
Posted by: 113121
» RE: The Very Rich Are the The Survivalists ...
Posted by: Lauren
» Blackwater to the rescue
Posted by: carbon-based
» All of this has been planned and carefully laid out by the elite...
Posted by: Prophit
» RICH IS RELATIVE
Posted by: grammasanity
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Posted by: Elijah on Jul 26, 2008 4:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE:Failure to learn from history
Posted by: Sushi
» What exactly is 'Middle-Class' America? Who are they?
Posted by: Cathyc
» Your kidding, right???
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: Suzon on Jul 26, 2008 4:42 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Though Wilson's resignation has never been explained (blackmail? threats?), the coup did not take place.
One of the drawbacks to living a bunker is the lack of social opportunities. The point of having diamonds is to have one's wife wear them in public. I suppose that touring opera companies could make a circuit of the various bolt holes, but somehow it wouldn't be the same.
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» The military coup that didn't happen ...
Posted by: harryf200
» Read my comment near the bottom if you want a truly wise solution
Posted by: SevenStarHand
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Posted by: bthespoon on Jul 26, 2008 4:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The Amish
Posted by: kegbot1
» RE: The Amish
Posted by: hagwind
» Until, that is...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Until, that is...
Posted by: oregoncharles
» Just been super busy...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Until, that is . . .
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Until, that is . . .
Posted by: Lauren
» Yes, the Amish will still thrive
Posted by: Democratic Socialist
» The Amish depend on us
Posted by: gellero1
» Uhm... you do realize...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: The Amish are better off without the gun toting motherfucking NRA.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: The Amish are better off without the gun toting motherfucking NRA.
Posted by: sasquuatch55
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Posted by: Peak Shrink on Jul 26, 2008 5:36 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The solutions will be myriad, local, and "individual" only in the same way that rhizomes grow.
You are right, Scott, that there is nowhere to run and hide. It isn't enough to just talk about it, though, we need to shut off our TV's (and computers) and actually do the hard work of developing trust between neighbors. And you are also right: we can't buy our way out of it with gizmos either. We actually have to learn to do things differently, basic things our grandparents took for granted.
It is remarkable that life tasks that used to be considered "normal," like putting up food for the winter, are now seen as a part of some bizarre cult.
I see a lot of people frozen and fearing the worst, like dieoff. When they actually start to do the pragmatic, hassle-filled planning that is required, the depression seems to lift, even if the awareness of what's possible doesn't. The future won't be very kind to those who said "I knew I should have done something constructive, but I just didn't have it in me to know where to start." As a psychologist, speaking to people just like this, blown away by their awareness of what's coming, I say "Start anywhere, just get moving." Even most of whom are planning to hold up in their bunkers will come to realize that it's an unworkable plan. We need each other, regardless of how annoying we find one another. We'll also find, as Rawles has said, a fascinating bunch of bedfellows, and recognize that, instead of a left-right line of "conservatives" and "progressives" we'll find more of a circle of opinions, none of which will be more important than the activities we'll all engage in together.
I really liked hearing from both Jim's. Thanks for launching this discussion on this wonderful site.
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» RE: Kathy McMahon
Posted by: kegbot1
» Yes, odd that preparation became bizarre, and easy things like composting are now complicated
Posted by: Beck
» Exactly... how many even have...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Kathy McMahon
Posted by: Kafwood
» RE: Kathy McMahon
Posted by: snorkeeeee
» Let's start out by reforming the zoning laws and ending the drug wars.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Kathy McMahon
Posted by: Lauren
» Peak oil is bogus.
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: kegbot1 on Jul 26, 2008 5:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is too difficult with the space afforded this piece to really get a handle on the situation. I would have also talked to Alex Jones (largest radio audience among survivalists) as well.
I think there are as many explanations and scenarios as to what may happen as people's imaginations can muster.
If we assume that Very Bad Things are going to happen, then the biggest wildcard will be the extent to which the Federal government can maintain control over the country. I do feel our only hope is if they lose control over most of the country - then local communities and perhaps even whole states can work for local solutions. In any case, it won't be pretty and there will be monumental difficulties to overcome but I'd rather have a nation of confederations working cooperatively than top down fascism which cares little for average people.
The second biggest factor to me is the ability of the American mind to wrap itself around the shocks that are coming. I do not foresee any reason for optimism here. I think people will be rendered mentally and psychologically helpless before they are materially helpless.
This makes my first two points important in tandem - a population that has been conditioned to be willfully helpless is going to run full speed into the arms of their government.
Which leads to factor three - localized communities could band together under a cooperative/survivalist ethic but be demonized by a Federal government which will try to crush those movements and bring them to heel with the support of the people who will be told the 'cooperatives' are hoarding food and supplies meant for the broader populations.
Starvation does strange things to otherwise normal people.
If people in this country really knew what was behind all of this they would not be so anxious to place their faith in their government. But we haven't been taught to have faith in ourselves.
Which leads to the other problem -- we have not been conditioned to work cooperatively with each other. Our whole national ethic is 'every person for themselves' and 'you're on your own.' In the age of the lawsuit and the crime show, we have been condition to have a deep and abiding fear and mistrust of our fellow citizens. This, above all, does not bode well for our future under such economic, political and social strains.
Like Marley's ghost if you're looking for comforting words, I sadly have none to give.
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» RE: All over the map
Posted by: harryf200
» RE: All over the map
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: All over the map
Posted by: dirtycrumbs
» RE: All over the map
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: All over the map
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: All over the map
Posted by: kegbot1
» RE: All over the map
Posted by: Dboy
» The whole world starts on your back porch...
Posted by: grammasanity
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Posted by: Lily H. on Jul 26, 2008 6:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
others! As a conscientious and curious citizen, I used
to attend my area's yearly Preparedness Expos held
each year at my local fairgrounds. Admittedly, I was
of two minds about these groups - first, the gun nuts
and anti-government types were in force, and second,
the back-to-the-landers were attractive what with all
their ingenious ideas to sustain oneself off the grid.
While strolling through the anti-gov't sections, I
wondered "Are ANY of these folks on the level or are
they ALL crazy?" It was at one of these events that
I first saw a blueprint of the supposed "detention
camps" being set up by the military which, naturally,
got the wheels turning, so to speak.
Oddly enough, soon after my last visit to this event,
they suddenly stopped appearing in my area, and I
phoned to inquire if they would be returning..
I was told they would not. Even this turn set me to
query, "Hmmm...why would the Expos suddenly STOP
coming to my area? Could there possibly be a reason
for those in power to influence various venues to
cease leasing to those involved in such?" Interesting
point to consider -- if anyone else here has noticed
a sudden drop-off in Preparedness Expos, please reply.
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» RE: Where Have All The Preparedness Expos Gone?
Posted by: dmann
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Posted by: dutchfarm on Jul 26, 2008 6:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: dutchfarm
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: REX 84
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: hagwind on Jul 26, 2008 6:27 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just in case anyone was wondering why the Old Testament is still popular after all these years . . .
P.S. The Parable of the Sower and The Parable of the Talents, by the late Octavia Butler, hold up very well if you're looking for plausible visions of people improvising solutions to the collapse of U.S. society (West Coast division).
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» The central character in the story..
Posted by: Bbear41
» RE: The central character in the story..
Posted by: Lauren
» What I meant was...
Posted by: Bbear41
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Posted by: European American on Jul 26, 2008 6:27 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What do you think will happen to the section 8 crowd? Middle America already ignores the poor. Do you think the subdivision turned co opt farm will warmly receive browns looking for yet another hand out? Do you know how owns the majority of legal firearms? White college educated males.
The reckoning is nigh.
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» Methinks I’ll also farm Cannabis…
Posted by: European American
» 26000 INDUSTRIAL USES of Cannabis and you're gonna need it alright.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: What makes YOU naively think that it's the white suburb that will HAVE the co-op?
Posted by: European American
» There is no real middle class in America. This isn't the 1970s you know.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: There is no real middle class in America. This isn't the 1970s you know.
Posted by: European American
» RE: TSO CALLED MIDDLE CLASS IS NOT A MIDDLE CLASS-AND IS A CODE WORD FOR SOEMTHING ELSE.
Posted by: avatar_singh
» RE: There is no real middle class in America. This isn't the 1970s you know.
Posted by: anonymous black writer
» RE: What makes YOU naively think that it's the white suburb that will HAVE the co-op?
Posted by: anonymous black writer
» BTW, Guns are food.
Posted by: European American
» Guns are metal, not food.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Guns are metal, not food.
Posted by: European American
» RE: Guns are metal, not food. Also guns are not made in nature, DUH !
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Guns are metal, not food. Also guns are not made in nature, DUH !
Posted by: harryf200
» RE: Guns are metal, not food. Also guns are not made in nature, DUH !
Posted by: john mont
» RE: What makes YOU naively think that it's the white suburb that will HAVE the co-op?
Posted by: tkwilson
» RE: You’ll Be Wishing Y’all Lived in a Southern Lilly White Suburb.
Posted by: avatar_singh
» RE: Y’all in "lilly white suburbs" won't be spared
Posted by: xi_people
» What about my muzzle loader, Bow, cross bow or Kuk
Posted by: European American
» And where are you gonna get them materials to do it?
Posted by: maxpayne
» You’ll Be Wishing Y’all Lived in a Southern Lilly White Suburb -- you are semi-correct
Posted by: Democratic Socialist
» RE: You’ll Be Wishing Y’all Lived in a Southern Lilly White Suburb.
Posted by: anonymous black writer
» ACTUALLY Mexican traditional...
Posted by: Bbear41
» RE: ACTUALLY Mexican traditional...
Posted by: Lauren
» In order to survive, trust will be key
Posted by: Bobsays
Comments are closed-
Posted by: djnoll on Jul 26, 2008 6:28 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a survivalist in the sense that for over 15 years now I have warned people of the Perfect Storm that was coming - economic collapse, climate change, and an aging population. We are now facing all three, and this is just the beginning. Many of those who have the skills to teach us how to think, to grow healthy real food, build homes that last for years, and to create localized economies of small sustainable businesses are dying. They are not the baby boomers, they are our parents. Our children know that we need to change - just watch and listen to the crowds at WALL-E. Children are closer to nature and they understand, but they do not have the skills we need. They say that only the elderly and children fight in revolutions, so maybe for this revolution it is time for the rest of us to step up to the plate. It is time to give up manicured lawns in favor of vegetable gardens and orchards; cars for public transportation or walking; neighborhood gatherings instead of TV and a pizza. It is time to stop pursuing the all mighty dollar and the next great toy, and start paying off our debt and saving our money under the mattress. But mostly why not work with your neighbors to build a sense of neighborhood and community based on trusting each other as a way of learning to work together to solve some of the problems now before it becomes a crisis in your town.
Survival is now and always has been a collective effort, something many of us have forsaken for the sake of modern interests. We need to return to what our grandparents knew - without each other, we have nothing, and no reason to survive. Meet your neighbors, talk about the things happening in your communities, and talk about how you want make changes, then organize, pick a good leader that everyone trusts and who trusts everyone to do their best, and then work to make sure that your towns and cities are self-sufficient and self-sustaining. It can be done, it must be done, because the Perfect Storm is starting and we have very little time left to change before it hits us full force.
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» RE: The answer lies in trust
Posted by: edgeofnowhere
» RE: The answer lies in trust
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: The answer lies in trust- and the willingness to work
Posted by: grammasanity
» RE: The answer lies in trust- and the willingness to work
Posted by: djnoll
Comments are closed-
Posted by: MSharp on Jul 26, 2008 6:31 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
who are dependent on malls and big box
stores such as Wal-Mart and Best Buy.
Because they were
not taught real survival skills
in high school or college, the
chance of them surviving without
these resources are very slim.
There will be many grasshoppers
and very few ants.
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» Better find a former Soldier/Marine turned Neighborhood Gun Nut…
Posted by: European American
» Only rightwing motherfuckers "trust" gun nuts to serve them.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Only rightwing motherfuckers "trust" gun nuts to serve them.
Posted by: harryf200
» RE: Better find a former Soldier/Marine turned Neighborhood Gun Nut…
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Grasshopper or Ant?
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: williameon on Jul 26, 2008 6:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let them live alone in
The Hell they have created.
Pod people insulated from the rest of the World
I envision something else.
FREEDOM,
Choice!
The Green Revolution and a Renaissance
Upgrade the Bill of Rights to include these new unalienable Human Rights:
The Right to:
Clean Air
Pure Water
Health Care
A living wage
Organic locally grown Foods
Green: Energy, Transportation, Homes, Schools and Shopping.
Efficiency instead of extravagance
Recyclable instead of wasteful.
A Totally locally owned and operated Media.
Let's Reaffirm our commitment to these positive progressive creative ideals:
Peace, Patience, Cooperation, Brotherly Love, Compassion, Healing and Helpfulness.
We are here for a reason.
Now is our Time!
This is the task.
These are the tools.
Start where you are and use them.
Let’s take a few baby steps together
Towards a brighter, cleaner tomorrow.
Peace, Survival, Health and Prosperity for ALL!
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» RE: The False God GREED brought us here, What will save us? Right On!
Posted by: angel2shine
» Here's some more rights.
Posted by: gellero1
» RE: Here's some more rights.
Posted by: maxpayne
» The Corpirates want a piece of the Action! Cut them off!
Posted by: williameon
» Ah, willy - if only.
Posted by: thekidde
Comments are closed-
Posted by: drricklippin on Jul 26, 2008 7:09 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Three questions?
-What risks are the most real in your own opinion?
-How likely is it that the risk(s) you choose are indeed catastrophic?
-When will the catastrophe become manifest?
Thanks for any input
Rick Lippin
ralippin@aol.com
The Perception of Risk is Tricky Business.
There seems to be a "catastrophe zeitgeist" going through the culture. Then you have the self destruction vs imposed by organized enemy debate or unstable loner individual act debate
-Economic collapse? (If China calls in its huge debt we have to them?)
-Environmental collapse? (Is Al Gore right?)
-Biblical Prophecy of last days from some religious fundamentalists
-Bio-agent catastrophe? (Pandemic flu-natural or anthrax-weaponized by enemy)
-Chemical? (self generated environmental poisoning vs enemy chemical agent attack)
-Nuclear bomb or other radiologic event? (dirty or suitcase bomb)
-Explosive devices? (Non- radiologic bombs)
-others?
Right now with North Korea going nuclear and possibly Iran and the ease of constructing a small nuclear device the betting is on some sort radiologic event.
But within 6 months the focus may change?
With limited resources where do we put our training and prep dollars? It seems we sure were caught blind by 9/11 and Katrina? One enemy imposed -the other natural. Very real catastrophes -not hypothetical.
Dr. Rick Lippin
October 2006
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» RE: Catastrophe Zeitgeist Persists
Posted by: Old Skeptic
» RE: Catastrophe Zeitgeist Persists
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Catastrophe Zeitgeist Persists
Posted by: Lauren
» Something I just learned today and didn't know.......
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cjwirth on Jul 26, 2008 7:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
According to energy investment banker Matthew Simmons, global oil production is now declining, from 85 million barrels per day to 60 million barrels per day by 2015. During the same time demand will increase 14%.
This is like a 45% drop in 7 years. No one can reverse this trend, nor can we conserve our way out of this catastrophe. Because the demand for oil is so high, it will always be higher than production; thus the depletion rate will continue until all recoverable oil is extracted.
Alternatives will not even begin to fill the gap. And most alternatives yield electric power, but we need liquid fuels for tractors/combines, 18 wheel trucks, trains, ships, and mining equipment.
We are facing the collapse of the highways that depend on diesel trucks for maintenance of bridges, cleaning culverts to avoid road washouts, snow plowing, roadbed and surface repair. When the highways fail, so will the power grid, as highways carry the parts, transformers, steel for pylons, and high tension cables, all from far away. With the highways out, there will be no food coming in from "outside," and without the power grid virtually nothing works, including home heating, pumping of gasoline and diesel, airports, communications, and automated systems.
This is documented in a free 48 page report that can be downloaded, website posted, distributed, and emailed: http://www.peakoilassociates.com/POAnalysis.html
I used to live in NH, but moved to a safer place. Anyone interested in relocating to a nice, pretty, sustainable area, good climate with much rain and good soil?
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» RE: President< Peak Oil Associates International
Posted by: Lloyd Drako
» RE: President< Peak Oil Associates International
Posted by: oregoncharles
» RE: President< Peak Oil Associates International
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: President< Peak Oil Associates International
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: President< Peak Oil Associates International
Posted by: Dboy
» Demand doesn't always go up unless you allow it to. The less oil, the less the demand will be.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: President< Peak Oil Associates International
Posted by: wildwestspace
» RE: President< Peak Oil Associates International
Posted by: DaPoorChimp
» RE: President< Peak Oil Associates International
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» RE: President< Peak Oil Associates International
Posted by: Lauren
» Well, here is a surprise for you... a letter by the oil CEO's in 2001...
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: vssmith on Jul 26, 2008 7:19 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Jul 26, 2008 7:30 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
JT
Ultimate Anonymity
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» Your right on most of this, but unfortunately you will have to ....
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: DivadNhoj on Jul 26, 2008 7:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Wanna Hear the Painful Truth?
Posted by: Dboy
» We ARE a third world country.
Posted by: pangolin
» The painful truth is we haven't had real capitalism and free markets....
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: edgeofnowhere on Jul 26, 2008 7:32 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Have enough basic food for 6 months (rice, beans, canned tomatoes, cooking oil, tuna, spices, coffee, salt for curing, sugar and honey, t-paper, booze etc. Have a wood stove for heat and/or cooking just in case there is no conventional fuel. Keep at least a good .22 with a scope and plenty of ammo, and a 12 ga. Grow a garden and if you have any room, you might consider raising rabbits (my favorite), chickens or goats. If you are living in the city, good luck to you.
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» RE: Semper preparatus
Posted by: Dboy
» Don't forget oil. We must have salt and oil to survive and we ...
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Don't forget oil. We must have salt and oil to survive and we ...
Posted by: djnoll
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Philip Newton on Jul 26, 2008 7:37 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course, now their MREs and bottled water are stale and they have a whopping credit card balance. (No idea if it's from buying all that stuff or not, but they are "stuff" people.)
I also feel a coming series of crises, and of course we are in one now, and it's getting worse. These people are precisely, 180 degrees wrong, for the reasons the author states. We will exist by coming together, not flying apart, as thousands of isolated, miserable and frightened survivalists would tell you -- if they could admit their grave errors and come outta their bunkers.
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» Capable people in homogenous communities will come together
Posted by: European American
» Know who's worthless?
Posted by: xi_people
» RE: Capable people in homogenous communities will come together
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» get your head out of the sand - man
Posted by: toddcory
» RE: Getcher maps here, folks!
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Getcher maps here, folks!
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Getcher maps here, folks!
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Getcher maps here, folks!
Posted by: praedor
» RE: Getcher maps here, folks!
Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: Getcher maps here, folks!
Posted by: camanokat
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Bbear41 on Jul 26, 2008 7:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Yes, I realize...
Posted by: Bbear41
» RE: obert Heinlein wrote...
Posted by: ranchero42
» RE: obert Heinlein wrote...
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: HughScott on Jul 26, 2008 8:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unfortunately for America's middleclass and working poor, the Bush administration dropped interest rates prematurely to sustain a smoke-and-mirror economy for political gain. Tax breaks for the rich during wartime didn't help matters, either.
Now, as George W. is about to retire and inherit mega-millions from his daddy's neocon-controlled, war-profiteering Carlyle Group, all we can do is blame ourselves for letting greedy Republican and Democratic politicians in Congress bankrupt America.
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» And that's why America needs a 3rd/Independent party for a MAJOR change.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: And that's why America needs a 3rd/Independent party for a MAJOR change.
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: We're screwed!
Posted by: buzzsaw
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Kafwood on Jul 26, 2008 8:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All the work I do (and I've spent many, many hours doing it) is volunteer and directed at helping my community, so I take umbrage at Scott Thill's assertion that being prepared and/or promoting preparedness is somehow anti-community. While I'm happy to see an article on this topic appear on Alternet, I find the sort of broad stroke criticism in this piece not only facile but counter-productive, and yet (sigh) another example of self-defeating leftism.
Community organizers come in many shapes and sizes - and this work does cross the right/left partisan divide. As in any social mov't (yes! that is what this is), the folks doing the grassroots work aren't getting the headlines. Thill should have taken the time to check out the many organizations listed with PostCarbon.org or Transition Communities, for example to lend more balance to his story.
There has been quite a shift in the few short years of doing this work. When I first began I was nervous and a bit self-conscious about my intentions being misinterpreted by the larger community, but my experience as an anti-war activist helped me get over my own fears of being ridiculed and sticking to the truth as I saw it. During the first year when I did public outreach occasionally someone would challenge me by suggesting I was promoting "hoarding" or "survivalism," even though almost all of what I was presenting were prudent lifestyle practices my grandparents took for granted. Now, I'm being asked to speak and write about short-term preparedness, new kitchen designs, root cellars, food preservation techniques and water storage. And the PreparedTompkins.org booth at this year's Earth Day celebration was packed with visitors looking for practical advice on where to begin transitioning for the times ahead.
We need more prepared community activists willing to take on not just the existential realities of the post-carbon era (which is defining this century) but more people putting their shoulders to wheel to do what needs to be done. I'd like to encourage people who might be sitting on the fence about taking on preparedness work to jump in - and bring your soical conscience with you.
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» RE: Prepared Localism IS Community
Posted by: maxpayne
» RE: Prepared Localism IS Community
Posted by: govindas
» RE: Prepared Localism IS Community- thank you for saying it so well.
Posted by: grammasanity
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sirios on Jul 26, 2008 8:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: CIAO!
Posted by: DaPoorChimp
» RE: CIAO!
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: CIAO!
Posted by: DaPoorChimp
» RE: CIAO!
Posted by: Dboy
» Before WWII an Australian...
Posted by: Bbear41
Comments are closed-
Posted by: oregoncharles on Jul 26, 2008 8:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Callenbach also deserves credit for an alarmingly accurate prediction: in his follow-up book, Ecotopia Emerging, he describes the process by which Ecotopia seceded. A key requirement: the US is entangled in an oil war in the Middle East, and essentially decides that the oil is more important than the Pacific NW. Sound familiar?
The other key requirement, besides a tremendous amount of on-the-ground organizing: the secessionists get hold of nuclear weapons and leave one lying around in Washington, D.C. Let's hope that one isn't so prescient. It certainly indicates how practical he thinks secession really is.
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» Always Coming Home
Posted by: grammasanity
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Gravitas on Jul 26, 2008 8:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Hey Gravitas
Posted by: 113121
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jasonix on Jul 26, 2008 9:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For me, this has involved learning to identify edible plants, learning about natural agriculture (unlike the high-irrigation, high-intensity agriculture that most folks are unwittingly practicing in their gardens now, which will no longer be tenable once water and fertilizer are in short supply), and learning the basics of hunting and trapping. It also involves getting in truly good physical condition (i.e., being able to swim 25 laps is a much better indicator of genuine physical health than having overly-large muscles that depend on chemical supplements, and while you have the option, you should detox your body from crappy fast food and eat lots of fruits, veggies, nuts, and a moderate amount of lean meat to harden and strengthen yourself) and learning your capacities as a human being. Learn hand-to-hand combat skills - I recommend Krav Maga or the U.S. military's Close Quarters Combat system.
Most importantly, you should have some form of community. Unfortunately, this is probably the hardest to come by in today's America. All the usual venues fail to provide it. The churches are little more than entertainment at this point. The once vibrant civic organizations have disappeared almost entirely. No one's life has any local dimension anymore; one's friends are liable to scattered in a 100 mile radius. But when this crap really starts to hit the fan, this will be the most important thing. Rural places have the best chance of pulling together.
That said, I think true social break-down will take more than just Peak Oil. We don't generate electricity with gas or oil, much, as it is now, so more than likely there will still be electricity supplied by coal in the future - transportation is what will crash as a result of peak oil, and food may become very expensive. The government will be firmly pressed to prevent hunger from causing a full-out revolt. If there is something else on top of peak oil, like nuclear terrorism or an avian flu epidemic, than I think we could see the end of functioning government.
So, assuming there is nothing but peak oil and the mortgage collapse, it's still a good idea to learn how to garden in order to off-set what's likely a non-stop run-up in the price of food. If there is another calamity on top of these two, then things might totally collapse.
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» RE: True survivalism means discipline and skills, not just stocking up food and ammo
Posted by: snorkeeeee
» True that, the gun toters never listen every time we tell them.
Posted by: maxpayne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sre on Jul 26, 2008 9:19 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: nothing's wrong
Posted by: sirios
» RE: nothing's wrong- And If Anybody TRULY Believes That....
Posted by: Animal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: david.model@senecac.on.ca on Jul 26, 2008 9:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are solutions to all these problems but it seems that the canary in the coal mine doesn't sing loud enough to save everyone. Although people may be aware of some of these problems, they don't seem to want to take action until directly impacted by one of them. Part of that problem is that too many people are not yet aware that they have been impacted. For example, tropical storms are often caused by global warming and are not just a natural phenomenom.
The critical question is about the devestation necessary before people are be aroused from their apathetic slumber. Will there still be enough time?
http://www.stateofdarkness.com
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» RE: THE CANARY IN THE COAL MINE doesn't sing:
Posted by: oregoncharles
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sre on Jul 26, 2008 9:34 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» This is the kind of ignorance that results when sre the frog is placed in lukewarm water and slowly
Posted by: maxpayne
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Menopausal Mick on Jul 26, 2008 9:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We faced Eminent Domain on two different properties in the last five years. We lived in the country but near a very large city. We got tired of having our land stolen to further corporate greed and we moved to a remote area and are learning to be self-sufficient and to live in harmony with the land.
I learned to can food this week. I can't cook. I hate the kitchen and it hates me back but I was able to learn to can food. The pressure cooker didn't even blow up! If I can do it, anyone can. It is amazing what human beings can learn given the proper motivation. Current events give motivation if nothing else.
Is my move to the wilderness a survivalistic desire to hide out? hmm.. well, I watched what can happen to civilization when the infrastructure disappears. I watched the aftermath of Katrina. About three days after the storm, the desperation of the survivors produced urban nightmarish situations and events. So, a little distancing from large urban sites isn't all that much of a crackpot idea in my view.
I look at it this way... If by some miracle things miraculously get better in the half a dozen areas that are about a gnat's arse from going wackaloon, then the skills we are learning are still excellant knowledge and abilities to acquire. It isn't wasted effort to learn to produce all of our food and as much of our energy as we can manage.
For people still living the urban life, have a backyard garden. Gardening is very calming and good for your health anyway. It's a win/win pursuit. Build a backyard worm farm with a large plastic bin and shreaded paper and a bit of sand and a bit of organic earth. You can buy the worms online for under thirty dollars and they will compost your kitchen refuse in about a third of the time of traditional compost methods and produce lovely worm castings for your soil. Google "vermiculture". There are tons of sites with decent instructions for an inexpensive self-made worm farm.
There are many many simple activities that will move one to a more self-sufficient way of life whether your home is in the wilderness or downtown Manhattan.
My question is...why would one fail to become more self-sufficient?
Mick
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Posted by: willymack on Jul 26, 2008 9:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: DaPoorChimp on Jul 26, 2008 9:52 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I like Alternet, but I feel the need to limit my exposure to it and sites like it, as they seem to delight in masturbatory expositions of hopelessly bad news. Feels so good to feel so bad?
It's a good place to come to fulfill one's daily quota of confirmation bias (q.v.): Oh it's all so terribly terribly hopeless in oh so many ways! And, (oh, deep, dark delight!!), even in ways I'd never have imagined on my own!
I speak here as a three decade veteran (Ret.) of an Armageddon-obsessed religious cult, so I know from long personal experience about the power of exposure to and faith in information from too few or insufficiently diversified sources. Years and years trying to read the signs of the End Times into every little tidbit of news we could lay hands on. No preparation for the future (savings, education etc.), since there wasn't going to be one. Well, at least not one in which sound financial, educational or professional planning and effort would benefit one.
Hey, people, it IS possible that this is all gonna go bad, very, very bad. It's also possible that this will happen soon, very, very soon. It IS indeed possible that we're, as it were, latter-day inhabitants of the Roman Empire, circa 475 A.D. (The generally accepted date of the collapse of the Roman Empire being 476 A.D.). We COULD all, or mostly, be verily screwed, and that quite soon.
However---take those deep breaths I advised a few sentences ago---it's also possible that we're NOT! It's possible we'll find our way out of the various messes with no, or minimal, disruption of planetary civilization (OK, OK, such as it is), let alone its catastrophic and utter collapse. And, even if it's not possible to avoid completely The Big Hurt, we may be able to contain and minimize its destructive effects. Hey, it's conceivable that BILLIONS of people will survive, quite intact. Imagine that! We just MAY find the resourcefulness and determination to switch to more sustainable forms of energy, food and potable water production and general living. We may actually figure out, work out, a modus vivendi, or a whole pile of modi vivendi, which permit civilization (I'll assume that most of us here regard civilization a generally good thing) to survive and even thrive. After all, along with being perhaps insufficiently far removed yet from our red-in-tooth-and-claw ancestry, we're also a very tough and clever species.....
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» RE: An Appetite For Destruction? Part I
Posted by: scienceisnotconsensus
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Posted by: alturn on Jul 26, 2008 9:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A local-activist-turned-politician once said a person is one disaster that effects them directly from becoming an activist. This conflaguration of events is about to turn all of the people of the world into activists. Some will fend for themselves, but most will likely understand that we are in a new time where divisions are not the answer, finding unity and realizing interdependence is.
Benjamin Creme has long articulated a different scenario than the survivalists. That a collective voice of the world's people will emerge to counter division and demand sharing, justice and cooperation. That this voice will be seen as the voice of wisdom and will forge a new direction for a humanity that is ready to take the next evolutionary step - one that recognizes that love and service to others and the planet is the prized medium of exchange.
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» RE: Perfect storm yes, yet other future directions are worth considering
Posted by: snorkeeeee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: DaPoorChimp on Jul 26, 2008 10:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And, if you're one of those---and I just KNOW you're out there---who finds him/her-self depressed, dismayed or disheartened by so much as the mere speculation that The End may not come, think on that for a while too. Really...think on WHY you're so invested in the notion of Collapse.
My final point in this somewhat discursive essay is that NO ONE knows the future; neither corporate fatcats nor armed-to-the-teeth survivalists nor preachers nor philosophers nor scientists nor fervent believers nor fervent unbelievers has anything but guesses to offer regarding what the future holds.
When I first became exposed to my aforementioned Armageddon-obsessed cult in the late sixties, we were oft assured by our fearless leader (now long deceased) that the Big Events would be occurring in "the next 10 to 15 years". I don't recall ever hearing a prediction past 30 years, and most were in that 10-15 years time frame.
I believed it, and many thousands of my fellow cult members did also, and we structured our lives accordingly.
And, oh, our leader assured us he had to be right because he was speaking, not of himself, but rather under inspiration of none other than the Holy Spirit!
Talk about the Big Guns.
And, oh, by the way, that 30 year outside estimate/prediction? Well, it passed about ten years ago. Obviously, the 10-15 time frame fared even worse when contrasted with reality.
Shucks! Really shoulda continued that education and started a savings plan a bit earlier I guess.
My general inclination these days, convinced as I am that no one can reliably predict the future, is that we may just as well work for the very finest one we can imagine. And hope for the best. I mean, why not?
Peace and long life.
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» RE: An Appetite For Destruction? Part II
Posted by: bcgirl125
» I agree, bcgirl
Posted by: Democratic Socialist
» RE: I agree, bcgirl
Posted by: DaPoorChimp
» RE: I agree, bcgirl
Posted by: kegbot1
» RE: An Appetite For Destruction? Part II
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
» RE: An Appetite For Destruction? Part II
Posted by: tommy_slothrop
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Posted by: DaPoorChimp on Jul 26, 2008 10:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyways, nice to see an entry like alturn's, right there between the two sections of mine. A little optimism is a good thing, even though pessimism sometimes seems, like the dark side of the Force, easier, more seductive.
Peace and long life. And may the Force (you know, the Jedi side. Mostly anyway) be with you.
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Posted by: DaPoorChimp on Jul 26, 2008 10:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now if you'll all excuse me, I've got to get that hose from my car's exhaust pipe out of the damn bathroom window before the neighbors notice it.....
P&LL
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