COMMENTS: 26
Are You On the Terror Watch List? Good Luck Getting Off It
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Although TSA insists Griffin's name is not on the list and pooh-poohs any possibility of retaliation for Griffin's negative reporting, the reporter has been hassled by various airlines on 11 flights since May. The airlines insist that Griffin's name is on the list.
Congress has asked TSA to look into the tribulations of this prominent passenger.
In a recent op-ed in the Washington Post, probably responding to the controversy over Griffin, Leonard Boyle, the director of the Terrorist Screening Center, defended the watch list, claiming that because terrorists have multiple aliases, the names on the list boiled down to only about 400,000 actual people.
If there are 400,000 terrorists lying in wait to attack the United States, we are all in trouble.
But wait a minute. There has been no major terrorist attack on U.S. soil since 9/11 -- almost seven years ago. Where are all these nefarious evildoers?
Boyle says 95 percent of these people are not American citizens or legal residents and the vast majority aren't even in the United States. He rather sheepishly defends the size of the list by writing, "Its size corresponds to the threat. It's a big world."
That brings up a very important issue. The U.S. government regularly tries to police the world and combat threats to other nations -- in the process, usually generating more enemies.
Examining the 44 organizations on the State Department's highly politicized list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations (FTO), one finds that only a very few currently focus their efforts on U.S. targets. And the U.S. government has even flirted with one anti-Iranian group, the Mujahedin-e Khalq, which was put on the FTO list long ago.
Similarly, the State Department's list of five state sponsors of terrorism has included Cuba and North Korea -- neither of which has actively participated in terrorist attacks in decades. These two countries continued to be on the list for other reasons -- namely U.S. government aversion to them.
On its Web site, the State Department even admits that, "The Democratic People's Republic of Korea (DPRK) was not known to have sponsored any terrorist acts since the bombing of a Korean Airlines flight in 1987."
The Web site also contains an implicit admission that keeping selected countries on the state sponsors list can reap ulterior political benefits for the United States. The Web site notes that under the umbrella of the Six-Party Talks, the United States intends to remove North Korea from the list as that nation takes actions toward getting rid of its nuclear weapons program.
Even the remaining three nations on the list that do sponsor terrorism -- Syria, Iran and Sudan -- don't support groups that focus their attacks on the U.S. Thus, the humongous terrorist watch list for airline travel and the excessively large FTO and state sponsors lists are a few more examples of the United States taking on other nations' security burdens.
Trying to be the "big man on (the world) campus," however, comes at a horrendous cost to American freedom at home.
The terrorist watch list is downright unconstitutional. Under the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution, no warrants shall be issued unless there is probable cause that a crime has been committed.
If the government has such probable cause that a passenger is conspiring to commit a terrorist act on an airplane, it should not hassle that person at the airport when trying to fly or ban him or her from flying; it should arrest them.
But of course the government does not have the evidence to do that for the vast majority of the 400,000 people on the watch list.
And it's apparently not easy to get yourself off the list once you are on it. Although Boyle claims that the TSA constantly scrubs the list for possible mistaken identities of people who have frequent "encounters" with the list, even if they don't file a complaint, Griffin uncovered an innocent passenger with a common name -- James Robinson -- who has complained endlessly and has received no resolution of his case.
Senator Edward Kennedy -- also with a common name -- experienced endless hassles and red tape trying to get his name off the list. If such a well-known figure has such problems, the average misidentified traveler is in big trouble.
And as the economists would say, what about opportunity cost to real security?
The U.S. government should spend the time it devotes to scrutinizing 400,000 people on the watch list, and the vast majority of the 44 FTOs and all of the five countries who don't sponsor anti-U.S. terrorism, on the again rising principal threat from Osama bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and their tens of hard-core al-Qaeda followers operating out of Pakistan.
The American public would be much safer. As the famous Prussian military ruler Fredrick the Great (and closet economist) said, "To defend everything is to defend nothing."
Moreover, under current government policy, we have neither liberty nor security.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: reinaldok on Jul 24, 2008 4:43 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» "Where are all these nefarious evildoers?"
Posted by: opmoc
» RE: "Where are all these nefarious evildoers?"
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: "Where are all these nefarious evildoers?"
Posted by: john mont
» RE: What to expect?
Posted by: ellie
» RE: What to expect?
Posted by: leafsong1
» Where are all these nefarious evildoers?
Posted by: Richard House
Comments are closed-
Posted by: bdcroan on Jul 24, 2008 5:14 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For cbs news report on kennedy:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/
2004/04/06/terror/main610466.shtml
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Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Jul 24, 2008 7:13 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
JT
Ultimate Anonymity
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Jul 24, 2008 7:55 AM
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» Some people on the list:
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: Some people on the list:
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: QQOblivion on Jul 24, 2008 8:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Consequences, plural
Posted by: JNGII
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Posted by: mnstra on Jul 24, 2008 10:19 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Pirate1 on Jul 24, 2008 10:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: sirios on Jul 24, 2008 11:12 AM
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Posted by: Reader11722 on Jul 24, 2008 12:09 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They violate the 1st Amendment by opening mail, caging demonstrators and banning books like America Deceived (book) (by E.A.Blayre III, who is on the list) from Amazon.
They violate the 2nd Amendment by confiscating guns during Katrina.
They violate the 4th Amendment by conducting warrant-less wiretaps.
They violate the 5th and 6th Amendment by suspending habeas corpus.
They violate the 8th Amendment by torturing.
They violate the entire Constitution by starting 2 illegal wars based on lies and on behalf of a foriegn gov't.
Support Dr. Ron Paul and save this great country.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
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Posted by: hiryuu75 on Jul 24, 2008 2:35 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The oh-so-helpful TSA provides a form for completion and submission in case of presumed-erroneous presence of a person's name on the list. After waiting weeks for a response, what I received back was a form letter that was as vague and non-committal as they come (aside from the loathsomely-thick nationalistic phrasing), and which to all intents and purposes basically stated that I "may continue to experience" the same BS I've faced for these months.
Further attempts on my part to get off the list have met with stonewalling or dead-ends. I'm convinced I'll be on it until I die or until we have some serious governmental overhaul. One can hope.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Been there since October of last year...
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: ranchero42 on Jul 24, 2008 3:54 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Ross Wolf on Jul 24, 2008 8:09 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Immediately following are excerpts from a article found at:
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/01/06/18470366.php
"Subsequently in 2008, under the Federal Government’s “Secure Flight Program” the Government will begin not allowing U.S. Citizens on domestic flights until the government has prescreened a passenger’s information against “government Watch Lists.” On its face—that sounds great. Everyone wants safe air travel. The Government states, “Watch Lists” will be used to identify individuals who “may pose” a known or suspected threat to aviation or national security. But what does that mean? “May pose a suspected threat—to national security? U.S. Government officials have called protesters potential terrorists and a threat to national security. The words “May pose a suspected threat…” are so vague one can’t help wonder if that might” apply to individuals wanting to fly to an anti-war or environmental protest. You can read about the Government “Watch Lists” in the “Secure Flight Program” at:
http://www.tsa.gov/what_we_do/layers/secureflight/index.shtm
"Will S.1959 Be Used to Restrict U.S. Citizens Traveling in Their Own Country?
Note: S.1059 is pending in the U.S. Senate.
"Government officials have called lawful protesters potential terrorists and a threat to national security. Will protestors be able to fly after the Senate passes S.1959? "
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Posted by: DanYHKim on Jul 24, 2008 8:56 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can only figure that it's racism. The assumption is that Asians are naturally deferential and compliant, and so are not potential Enemies of the State.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: I'm not trying hard enough
Posted by: ranchero42
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Purple Girl on Jul 25, 2008 6:05 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This appears to happen while I am still typing my comments. I have no doubt that Big Brother is watching- but how closely it individuals before they can even 'send' their thoughts? I find this most often happens while bitching about this admin and interstingly enough Religious Christian Fanatics/extremeist in this country, like Hagee!
Your are not Paranoid if they are truly out to get you- or at least shut you Up!
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: seetheball on Jul 25, 2008 6:51 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He wasn't concerned about whether those who struck were "nefarious evildoers" or not. He immediatly understood what the threat was and what was required in response. He stayed true to that even onto giving his life.
We are not the enemy. We are not the bad guys. "Big brother" is a boogey man, conjured up academics, politicians and others who have a vested interest in the myth's survival. It's called fear mongering. "1984" is a book; a novel. It's revelance, always nebulous, has disappeared.
Lincoln's words about the only enemy we need fear is from our own shores was great for 150 years; 9/11 obviously rendered obsolete. "Obviously" being the key word here.
The threat to our freedoms is from "tens" of followers of Al Qaeda who want you, me, your children, your parents, your dog, your parakeet, your neighbors, the guy who sold you your bagel this morning, and every other American or anybody associated with them, dead.
Here are the two wisest things I have heard on 9/11 and our security threat: from a 16 yr old girl at ground zero, visiting from Oregon: "Not until then did I realize how much they hated us and wanted us dead."
And, from a 19 yr old high school drop out: "How do you plan flying airplanes into buildings?"
That's the threat today, not our government. Grown ups know that. It is nice for Iavn Eland to mock the threats posed by Islamic fuindamentalists and the meaning of 9/11; it supports his view that it is not a real threat. The facts, that being 9/11, speak differently.
It was eight years between the first bombing of the WTC and 9/11. People then mocked the idea of searching for "nefarious evildoers" then, too. They were wrong.
It's great fun to discard the deaths of thousands of innocents by referring to those who indiscriminatly murdered thousands mockingly as "evildoers" but what were they? Not so bad doers? Every one of your readers whouldn't hesitate an eyeblink to refer to Bush or Cheney as "evil" but people who hijack jetliners and fly them into buildings? Heck, they're not American, they're not Western, they're not white, they're not Judeo-Christian; and they attacked us! They must, somehow, be innocent.
Here's what two firemen who were there reported: there were two people lying in the lobby of WTC 1. The man was already dead, burned to death. There was a woman lying beside him. "She was naked; her skin was burned off. Her eyes and throat were sealed shut. She tried to speak. She perished within two minutes."
Another said: "They were falling out of the sky and exploding."
But that's nothing to take seriously. So much more fun, despite the truth that hit us all in the face, 9/11, to hold onto our precious dogma. To pretend that all we have to do to secure our freedoms is to rail against false enemies who are not hitting back; that takes no courage and no sacrifice.
Recently, returning from Italy, I was delayed in reentering the country. My passport "came up weird" I was told. There was some sort of match to somebody suspicious somewhere. I thought, now this is a great irony. The officers could not have been more polite. After about an hour the issue was resolved, my passport pleasantly returned and I was on my way.
The horror.
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Posted by: reinaldok on Jul 24, 2008 4:43 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» "Where are all these nefarious evildoers?"
Posted by: opmoc
» RE: "Where are all these nefarious evildoers?"
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: "Where are all these nefarious evildoers?"
Posted by: john mont
» RE: What to expect?
Posted by: ellie
» RE: What to expect?
Posted by: leafsong1
» Where are all these nefarious evildoers?
Posted by: Richard House
Comments are closed-
Posted by: bdcroan on Jul 24, 2008 5:14 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For cbs news report on kennedy:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/
2004/04/06/terror/main610466.shtml
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Jul 24, 2008 7:13 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
JT
Ultimate Anonymity
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: leafsong1 on Jul 24, 2008 7:55 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Some people on the list:
Posted by: fanny666
» RE: Some people on the list:
Posted by: Dboy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: QQOblivion on Jul 24, 2008 8:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Consequences, plural
Posted by: JNGII
Comments are closed-
Posted by: mnstra on Jul 24, 2008 10:19 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Pirate1 on Jul 24, 2008 10:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: sirios on Jul 24, 2008 11:12 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: Reader11722 on Jul 24, 2008 12:09 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They violate the 1st Amendment by opening mail, caging demonstrators and banning books like America Deceived (book) (by E.A.Blayre III, who is on the list) from Amazon.
They violate the 2nd Amendment by confiscating guns during Katrina.
They violate the 4th Amendment by conducting warrant-less wiretaps.
They violate the 5th and 6th Amendment by suspending habeas corpus.
They violate the 8th Amendment by torturing.
They violate the entire Constitution by starting 2 illegal wars based on lies and on behalf of a foriegn gov't.
Support Dr. Ron Paul and save this great country.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hiryuu75 on Jul 24, 2008 2:35 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The oh-so-helpful TSA provides a form for completion and submission in case of presumed-erroneous presence of a person's name on the list. After waiting weeks for a response, what I received back was a form letter that was as vague and non-committal as they come (aside from the loathsomely-thick nationalistic phrasing), and which to all intents and purposes basically stated that I "may continue to experience" the same BS I've faced for these months.
Further attempts on my part to get off the list have met with stonewalling or dead-ends. I'm convinced I'll be on it until I die or until we have some serious governmental overhaul. One can hope.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: Been there since October of last year...
Posted by: Dboy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ranchero42 on Jul 24, 2008 3:54 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ross Wolf on Jul 24, 2008 8:09 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Immediately following are excerpts from a article found at:
http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2008/01/06/18470366.php
"Subsequently in 2008, under the Federal Government’s “Secure Flight Program” the Government will begin not allowing U.S. Citizens on domestic flights until the government has prescreened a passenger’s information against “government Watch Lists.” On its face—that sounds great. Everyone wants safe air travel. The Government states, “Watch Lists” will be used to identify individuals who “may pose” a known or suspected threat to aviation or national security. But what does that mean? “May pose a suspected threat—to national security? U.S. Government officials have called protesters potential terrorists and a threat to national security. The words “May pose a suspected threat…” are so vague one can’t help wonder if that might” apply to individuals wanting to fly to an anti-war or environmental protest. You can read about the Government “Watch Lists” in the “Secure Flight Program” at:
http://www.tsa.gov/what_we_do/layers/secureflight/index.shtm
"Will S.1959 Be Used to Restrict U.S. Citizens Traveling in Their Own Country?
Note: S.1059 is pending in the U.S. Senate.
"Government officials have called lawful protesters potential terrorists and a threat to national security. Will protestors be able to fly after the Senate passes S.1959? "
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: DanYHKim on Jul 24, 2008 8:56 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can only figure that it's racism. The assumption is that Asians are naturally deferential and compliant, and so are not potential Enemies of the State.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
» RE: I'm not trying hard enough
Posted by: ranchero42
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Purple Girl on Jul 25, 2008 6:05 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This appears to happen while I am still typing my comments. I have no doubt that Big Brother is watching- but how closely it individuals before they can even 'send' their thoughts? I find this most often happens while bitching about this admin and interstingly enough Religious Christian Fanatics/extremeist in this country, like Hagee!
Your are not Paranoid if they are truly out to get you- or at least shut you Up!
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: seetheball on Jul 25, 2008 6:51 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He wasn't concerned about whether those who struck were "nefarious evildoers" or not. He immediatly understood what the threat was and what was required in response. He stayed true to that even onto giving his life.
We are not the enemy. We are not the bad guys. "Big brother" is a boogey man, conjured up academics, politicians and others who have a vested interest in the myth's survival. It's called fear mongering. "1984" is a book; a novel. It's revelance, always nebulous, has disappeared.
Lincoln's words about the only enemy we need fear is from our own shores was great for 150 years; 9/11 obviously rendered obsolete. "Obviously" being the key word here.
The threat to our freedoms is from "tens" of followers of Al Qaeda who want you, me, your children, your parents, your dog, your parakeet, your neighbors, the guy who sold you your bagel this morning, and every other American or anybody associated with them, dead.
Here are the two wisest things I have heard on 9/11 and our security threat: from a 16 yr old girl at ground zero, visiting from Oregon: "Not until then did I realize how much they hated us and wanted us dead."
And, from a 19 yr old high school drop out: "How do you plan flying airplanes into buildings?"
That's the threat today, not our government. Grown ups know that. It is nice for Iavn Eland to mock the threats posed by Islamic fuindamentalists and the meaning of 9/11; it supports his view that it is not a real threat. The facts, that being 9/11, speak differently.
It was eight years between the first bombing of the WTC and 9/11. People then mocked the idea of searching for "nefarious evildoers" then, too. They were wrong.
It's great fun to discard the deaths of thousands of innocents by referring to those who indiscriminatly murdered thousands mockingly as "evildoers" but what were they? Not so bad doers? Every one of your readers whouldn't hesitate an eyeblink to refer to Bush or Cheney as "evil" but people who hijack jetliners and fly them into buildings? Heck, they're not American, they're not Western, they're not white, they're not Judeo-Christian; and they attacked us! They must, somehow, be innocent.
Here's what two firemen who were there reported: there were two people lying in the lobby of WTC 1. The man was already dead, burned to death. There was a woman lying beside him. "She was naked; her skin was burned off. Her eyes and throat were sealed shut. She tried to speak. She perished within two minutes."
Another said: "They were falling out of the sky and exploding."
But that's nothing to take seriously. So much more fun, despite the truth that hit us all in the face, 9/11, to hold onto our precious dogma. To pretend that all we have to do to secure our freedoms is to rail against false enemies who are not hitting back; that takes no courage and no sacrifice.
Recently, returning from Italy, I was delayed in reentering the country. My passport "came up weird" I was told. There was some sort of match to somebody suspicious somewhere. I thought, now this is a great irony. The officers could not have been more polite. After about an hour the issue was resolved, my passport pleasantly returned and I was on my way.
The horror.
[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]
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