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The Startling Truth About Doctors and Diagnostic Errors

By Maggie Mahar and Niko Karvounis, Health Beat. Posted June 19, 2008.


Diagnostic errors happen at alarming rates but remain underdiscussed. Doctors' overconfidence is just one reason why.

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This article originally appeared on Health Beat.

Despite all of the talk about medical errors and patient safety, almost no one likes to talk about diagnostic errors. Yet doctors misdiagnose patients more often than we would like to think. Sometimes they diagnose patients with illnesses they don't have. Other times, the true condition is missed. All in all, diagnostic errors account for 17 percent of adverse events in hospitals, according to the Harvard Medical Practice Study, a landmark study that looks at medical errors.

Traditionally, these errors have not received much attention from researchers or the public. This is understandable. Thinking about missed diagnosis and wrong diagnosis makes everyone -- patients as well as doctors -- queasy. Especially because there is no obvious solution. But this past weekend the American Medical Informatics Association (AMIA) made a brave effort to spotlight the problem, holding its first-ever "Diagnostic Error in Medicine" conference.

Hats off to Bob Wachter, associate chairman of the Department of Medicine at the University of California, San Francisco, and the keynote speaker at the conference. Wachter shared some thoughts on diagnostic errors through his blog Wachter's World.

Wachter begins by pointing out that a misdiagnosis lacks the concentrated shock value that is needed to grab the public imagination. Diagnostic mistakes "often have complex causal pathways, take time to play out, and may not kill for hours [i.e., if a doctor misses myocardial infarction in a patient], days (missed meningitis) or even years (missed cancers)." In short, to understand diagnostic errors, you need to pay attention for a longer period of time -- not something that's easy to do in today's sound-bite driven culture.

Diagnostic errors just aren't media-friendly. When someone is prescribed the wrong medication and they die, the sequence of events is usually rapid enough that the story can be told soon after the tragedy occurs. But the consequences of a mistaken diagnosis are too diffuse to make a nice, punchy story. As Wachter puts it: "They don't pack the same visceral wallop as wrong-site surgery."

Finally, Wachter observes, it's hard to measure diagnostic errors. It's easy to get an audience's attention by telling it that "the average hospitalized patient experiences one medication error a day" or that "the average ICU patient has 1.7 errors per day in their care."

But we don't have equally clean numbers on missed diagnoses. As a result, he points out, "it's difficult to convince policy makers and hospital executives, who are now obsessing about lowering the rates of hospital-acquired infections and falls" to focus on a problem that is much more difficult to tabulate.

This is a recurring problem in programs that strive to improve the quality of care: We are mesmerized by the idea of "measuring" everything. Yet, too often, what is most important cannot be easily measured. Wacther recognizes the urgency of the problem: "As quality and safety movements gallop along, the need to" address diagnostic errors" grows more pressing," he writes. "Until we do, we will face a fundamental problem: A hospital can be seen as a high-quality organization -- receiving awards for being a stellar performer and oodles of cash from P4P programs -- if all of its 'pneumonia' patients receive the correct antibiotics, all its 'CHF' patients are prescribed ACE inhibitors, and all its 'MI' patients get aspirin and beta blockers.

"Even if every one of the diagnoses was wrong."

Why so many errors?

Medicine is shot through with uncertainty; diseases do not always present neatly, in textbook fashion, and every human body is unique. These are just a few reasons why diagnosis is, perhaps, the most difficult part of medicine.

But misdiagnosis almost always can be traced to cognitive errors in how doctors think. When diagnosis is based on simple observation in specialties like radiology and pathology, which rely heavily on visual interpretation, error rates probably range from 2 percent to 5 percent, according to Drs. Eta S. Berner and Mark L. Graber, writing in the May issue of the American Journal of Medicine.

By contrast, in clinical specialties that rely on "data gathering and synthesis" rather than observation, error rates tend to run as high as 15 percent. After reviewing "an extensive and ever-growing literature" on misdiagnosis, Berner and Graber conclude that "diagnostic errors exist at nontrivial and sometimes alarming rates. These studies span every specialty and virtually every dimension of both inpatient and outpatient care."

As the table below reveals, numerous studies show that the rate of misdiagnosis is "disappointingly high" both "for relatively benign conditions" and "for disorders where rapid and accurate diagnosis is essential, such as myocardial infarction, pulmonary embolism, and dissecting or ruptured aortic aneurysms."

STUDY NAME: Shojania et al (2002)
ASSESSED CONDITION: Tuberculosis of the lungs (bacterial infection)
FINDINGS: Reviewing autopsy studies specifically focused on the diagnosis of lung TB, researchers found that 50 percent of these diagnoses were not suspected by physicians before the patient died.

STUDY: Pidenda et al (2001)
CONDITION: Pulmonary embolism ( a blood clot blocks arteries in the lungs)
FINDINGS: This study reviewed diagnosis of fatal dislodged blood clots over a five-year period at a single institution. Of 67 patients who died of pulmonary embolism, clinicians didn't suspect the diagnosis in 37 (55 percent) of them.

STUDY: Lederle et al (1994), von Kodolitsch et al (2000)
CONDITION: Ruptured aortic aneurysm (when a weakened, bulging area in the aorta ruptures)
FINDINGS: These two studies reviewed cases at a single medical center over a seven-year period. Of 23 cases involving these aneurysms in the abdomen, diagnosis of rupture was initially missed in 14 (61 percent); in patients presenting with chest pain, doctors missed the need to dissect the bulging part of the aorta in 35 percent of cases.

STUDY: Edlow (2005)
CONDITION: Subarachnoid hemorrhage (bleeding in a particular region of the brain)
FINDINGS: This study, an updated review of published studies on this particular type of brain bleeding, shows about 30 percent are misdiagnosed on initial evaluation.

STUDY: Burton et al (1998)
CONDITION: Cancer detection
FINDINGS: Autopsy study at a single hospital: of the 250 malignant tumors found at autopsy, 111 were either misdiagnosed or undiagnosed, and in just 57 of the cases, the cause of death was judged to be related to the cancer.

STUDY: Beam et al (1996)
CONDITION: Breast cancer
FINDINGS: Looked at 50 accredited centers agreed to review mammograms of 79 women, 45 of whom had breast cancer. The centers missed cancer in 21 percent of the patients.

STUDY: McGinnis et al (2002)
CONDITION: Melanoma (skin cancer)
FINDINGS: This study, the second review of 5,136 biopsy samples found that diagnosis changed in 11 percent (1.1 percent from benign to malignant, 1.2 percent from malignant to benign, and 8 percent had a change in doctors' ranking of how abnormal the cells were) of the samples over time, suggesting a not insignificant initial error rate.

STUDY: Perlis (2005)
CONDITION: Bipolar disorder
FINDINGS: The initial diagnosis was wrong in 69 percent of patients with bipolar disorder and delays in establishing the correct diagnosis were common.

STUDY: Graff et al (2000)
CONDITION: Appendicitis (inflamed appendix)
FINDINGS: Retrospective study at 12 hospitals of patients with abdominal pain and operations for appendicitis. Of 1,026 patients who had surgery, there was no appendicitis in 110 (10.5 percent); of 916 patients with a final diagnosis of appendicitis, the diagnosis was missed or wrong in 170 (18.6 percent).

STUDY: Raab et al (2005)
CONDITION: Cancer pathology (microscopic examination of tissues and cells to detect cancer)
FINDINGS: The frequency of errors in diagnosing cancer was measured at four hospitals over a one-year period. The error rate of pathologic diagnosis was 2 percent to 9 percent for gynecology cases and 5 percent to 12 percent for nongynecology cases; errors ran from what tissues the doctors used, to preparation problems, to misinterpretations of tissue anatomy when viewed under microscope.

STUDY: Buchweitz et al (2005)
CONDITION: Endometriosis (tissue similar to the lining of the uterus is found elsewhere in the body)
FINDINGS: Digital videotapes of the inside of patients' bodies were shown to 108 gynecologic surgeons. Surgeons agreed only 18 percent of the time as to how many tissue areas were actually affected by this condition.

STUDY: Gorter et al (2002)
CONDITION: Psoriatic arthritis (red, scaly skin coupled with join inflammation)
FINDINGS: One of two patients with psoriatic arthritis visited 23 joint and motor specialists; the diagnosis was missed or wrong in nine visits (39 percent).

STUDY: Bogun et al (2004)
CONDITION: Atrial fibrillation (abnormal heart beat in the upper chambers of the heart)
FINDINGS: Review of doctor readings of electro-cardiograms [a graphical recording of the change in body electricity due to cardiac activity] that concluded a patient suffered from this abnormal heart beat found that: 35 percent of the patients were misdiagnosed by the machine, and the error was detected by the reviewing clinician only 76 percent of the time.

STUDY: Arnon et al (2006)
CONDITION: Infant botulism (toxic bacterial infection in newborns' intestines)
FINDINGS: Study of 129 infants in California suspected of having botulism during a five-year period; only 50 percent of the cases were suspected at the time of admission.

STUDY: Edelman (2002)
CONDITION: Diabetes (high blood sugar due to insufficient insulin)
FINDINGS: Retrospective review of 1,426 patients with laboratory evidence of diabetes showed that there was no mention of diabetes in the medical record of 18 percent of patients.

STUDY: Russell et al (1988)
CONDITION: Chest x-rays in the emergency department
FINDINGS: One third of x-rays were incorrectly interpreted by the emergency department staff compared with the final readings by radiologists.

Overconfidence

Misdiagnosis rarely springs from a "lack of knowledge per se, such as seeing a patient with a disease that the physician has never encountered before," Berner and Grave explain. "More commonly, cognitive errors reflect problems gathering data, such as failing to elicit complete and accurate information from the patient; failure to recognize the significance of data, such as misinterpreting test results; or most commonly, failure to synthesize or 'put it all together.'"

The breakdown in clinical reasoning often occurs because the physician isn't willing or able to "reflect on [his] own thinking processes and critically examine [his] assumptions, beliefs, and conclusions." In a word, the physician is too "confident."

Indeed, Berner and Graber find an inverse relationship between confidence and skill. In one study they reviewed, the researchers looked at diagnoses made by medical students, residents and physicians, and asked them how certain they were that they were correct. The good news is that while medical students were less accurate, they also were less confident; meanwhile the attending physicians were the most accurate and highly confident. The bad news is that the residents were more confident than the others, but significantly less accurate than the attending physicians. In another study, researchers found that residents often stayed wedded to an incorrect diagnosis even when a diagnostic decision support system suggested the correct diagnosis.

In a third study of 126 patients who died in the ICU and underwent autopsy, physicians were asked to provide the clinical diagnosis and also their level of uncertainty. Level 1 represented complete certainty, level 2 indicated minor uncertainty, and level 3 designated major uncertainty. Here the punch line is alarming: Clinicians who were "completely certain" of the diagnosis before death were wrong 40 percent of the time.

Overconfidence, or the belief that "I know all I need to know," may help explain what the researchers describe as a "pervasive disinterest in any decision support or feedback, regardless of the specific situation." Studies show that "physicians admit to having many questions that could be important at the point of care, but which they do not pursue. Even when information resources are automated and easily accessible at the point of care with a computer, one study found that only a tiny fraction of the resources were actually used."

Research shows that physicians tend to ignore computerized decision-support systems, often in the form of guidelines, alerts and reminders. "For many conditions, consensus exists on the best treatments and the recommended goals," Berner and Graber point out. Nevertheless, a comprehensive review of medical practice in the United States found that the care provided deviated from recommended best practices half of the time. In one study, the researchers suggest that the high rate of noncompliance with clinical guidelines relates to "the sociology of what it means to be a professional" in our health care system: "Being a professional connotes possessing expert knowledge in an area and functioning relatively autonomously." Many physicians have yet to learn that 21st century medicine is too complex for anyone to know everything -- even in a single specialty. Medicine has become a team sport.

But while it's easy to blame medical "arrogance" for the high rate of errors, "there is ubstantial evidence that overconfidence -- that is, miscalibration of one's own sense of accuracy and actual accuracy -- is ubiquitous and simply part of human nature," Berner and Graber write. "A striking example derives from surveys of academic professionals, 94 percent of whom rate themselves in the top half of their profession. Similarly, only 1 percent of drivers rate their skills below that of the average driver."

In another study published in the same issue of AMJ, Pat Croskerry and Geoff Norman note that such equanimity regarding one's own skills can lead to what's called "confirmation bias." People "anchor" on findings that support their initial assumptions. Given a set of information, it's much easier to pull out the data that proves you right and pat yourself on the back than it is to look at the contradictory evidence and rethink your assumptions. Indeed, Croskerry and Norman observe,"It takes far more mental effort to contemplate disconfirmation -- by considering all the other things it might be -- than confirmation."

Making things all the more difficult is the fact that, at a certain point, the alternative to confirmation bias -- what Croskerry and Norman call "consider the opposite" -- becomes impractical. If a doctor embraces uncertainty, he could easily become paralyzed.

What doctors need to do is to simultaneously make a decision -- and keep an open mind. Often, a doctor must embark on a course of treatment as a way of diagnosing the condition -- all the time knowing that he may be wrong.

Too often, Berner and Graber observe, physicians narrow the diagnostic hypotheses too early in the process, so that the correct diagnosis is never seriously considered. Reliance on advanced diagnostic tests can encourage what they call "premature closure." After all, high-tech diagnostic technologies offer up hard-and-fast data, fostering the illusion that the physician has vanquished medicine's ambiguity.

But in truth, advanced diagnostic tools can miss critical information. The problem is not the technology, but how we use it. Some observers suggest that the newest and most sophisticated tools are more likely to produce false negatives because doctors accept the results so readily.

"In most cases, it wasn't the technology that failed," explains Dr. Atul Gawande in Complications: A Surgeon's Notes on an Imperfect Science. "Rather, the physician did not consider the right diagnosis in the first place. The perfect test or scan may have been available, but the physician never ordered it." Instead, he ordered another test -- and believed it.

"We get this all the time," Bill Pellan of Florida's Penallas-Pasca County Medical Examiner's Office told the New York Times a few years ago. "The doctor will get our report and call and say: 'But there can't be a lacerated aorta. We did a whole set of scans.'

"We have to remind him we held the heart in our hands."

Autopsies

Sometimes physicians are overly confident; sometimes they narrow their hypothesis too early in the diagnostic process. Sometimes they rely too heavily on advanced diagnostic tests and accept the results too quickly. As I explained in part one of this post, these are some of the reasons why physicians misdiagnose their patients up to 15 percent of the time.

"Complacency" (i.e., the attitude that "nobody's perfect") also is a factor, reports Drs. Eta S. Berner and Mark L. Graber in the May issue of the American Journal of Medicine. "Complacency reflects tolerance for errors, and the belief that errors are inevitable," they write, "combined with little understanding of how commonplace diagnostic errors are. Frequently, the complacent physician may think that the problem exists, but not in his own practice ..."

It is crucial to recognize that physicians are not simply deceiving themselves: In our fragmented healthcare system, many honestly don't know when they have misdiagnosed a patient. No one tells them -- including the patient.

Sometimes a patient who isn't getting better simply leaves the doctor and finds someone else. His original doctor may well assume that he was finally cured. Or the patient may be discharged from the hospital, relapse three months later, and go to a different ER where he discovers that his symptoms have returned because he was, in fact, misdiagnosed. The doctors who cared for him at the first hospital have no way of knowing; they think they cured him. In other cases, the patient gets better despite the wrong diagnosis. (It is surprising how often bodies heal themselves.) Meanwhile, both doctor and patient assume that the diagnosis was right and that the treatment "worked."

In still other cases, the patient dies, and because everyone assumes that the diagnosis was correct, it is listed as the "cause of death" -- when in fact, another condition killed the patient.

When giving talks to groups of physicians on diagnostic errors, Graber says that he frequently "asks whether they have made a diagnostic error in the past year. Typically, only 1 percent admit to having made such a mistake."

Here, we reach the heart of the problem: what Berner and Graber call "the remarkable discrepancy between the known prevalence of diagnostic error and physician perception of their own error rate." This gap "has not been formally quantified and is only indirectly discussed in the medical literature," they note "but [it] lies at the crux of the diagnostic error puzzle and explains in part why so little attention has been devoted to this problem."

One cannot expect doctors to learn from their mistakes unless they have feedback: At one time, autopsies provided physicians with the information they needed. And the results were regularly discussed at "mortality and morbidity" conferences, where doctors became Monday-morning quarterbacks, discussing what they could have done differently.

But today, "autopsies are done in 10 percent of all deaths; many hospitals do none," notes Dr. Atul Gawande in Complications: A Surgeons Notes on an Imperfect Science. "This is a dramatic turnabout. Throughout much of the 20th century, doctors diligently obtained autopsies in the majority of all deaths ... Autopsies have long been viewed as a tool of discovery, one that has been used to identify the cause of tuberculosis, reveal how to treat appendicitis and establish the existence of Alzheimer's disease.

"So what accounts for the decline?" Gawande asks. "In truth, it's not because families refuse -- to judge from recent studies, they still grant their permission up to 80 percent of the time. Instead, doctors once so eager to perform autopsies that they stole bodies [from graves] have simply stopped asking.

"Some people ascribe this to shady motives," Gawande continues. "It has been said that hospitals are trying to save money by avoiding autopsies, since insurers don't pay for them, or that doctors avoid them in order to cover up evidence of malpractice. And yet," he points out, "autopsies lost money and uncovered malpractice when they were popular, too."

Gawande doesn't believe that fear of malpractice has driven the decline in autopsies. Instead," he writes, "I suspect, what discourages autopsies is medicine's 21st century, tall-in-the-saddle confidence."

This is an important point. Autopsies have fallen out of fashion in recent years: "Between 1972 and 1995, the last year for which statistics are available, the rate fell from 19.1 percent of all deaths to 9.4 percent. A major reason for the decline over this period is that "imaging technologies such as CT scanning and ultrasound have enabled doctors to 'see' such obvious internal causes of death as tumors before the patient dies," says Dr. Patrick Lantz, associate professor of pathology at Wake Forest University Baptist Medical Center. Nowadays an autopsy seems a waste of time and resources.

Gawande agrees: "Today we have MRI scans, ultrasound, nuclear medicine, molecular testing and much more. When somebody dies, we already know why. We don't need an autopsy to find out ... Or so I thought ... " Gawande then goes on to tell the story of a autopsy that rocked him. He had completely misdiagnosed a patient.

What autopsies show

The autopsy has been described as "the most powerful tool in the history of medicine" and the "gold standard" for detecting diagnostic errors. Indeed, Gawande points out that three studies done in 1998 and 1999 reveal that autopsies "turn up a major misdiagnosis in roughly 40 percent of all cases."

A large review of autopsy studies concluded that, "in about a third of the misdiagnoses, the patients would have been expected to live if proper treatment had been administered," Gawande reports. "Dr. George Lundberg, a pathologist and former editor of the Journal of the American Medical Association, has done more than anyone to call attention to these figures. He points out the most surprising fact of all: The rate at which misdiagnosis is detected in autopsy studies have not improved since at least 1938."

When Gawande first heard these numbers he couldn't believe them. "With all of the recent advances in imaging and diagnostics ... it's hard to accept that we have failed to improve over time." To see if this really could be true, he and other doctors at Harvard put together a simple study. They went back into their hospital records to see how often autopsies picked up missed diagnosis in 1960 and 1970, before the advent of CT, ultrasound, nuclear scanning and other technologies, and then in 1980, after those technologies became widely used.

Gawande reports the results of the study: "The researchers found no improvement. Regardless of the decade, physicians missed a quarter of fatal infections, a third of heart attacks and almost two-thirds of pulmonary emboli in their patients who died."

But these numbers may exaggerate the rate of error. As Berner and Graber observe, "Autopsy studies only provide the error rate in patients who die." One can assume that the error rate is much lower in patients who survived.

"For example, whereas autopsy studies suggest that fatal pulmonary embolism is misdiagnosed approximately 55 percent of the time, the misdiagnosis rate for all cases of pulmonary embolism is only 4 percent ..." a large discrepancy also exists regarding the misdiagnosis rate for myocardial infarction: although autopsy data suggest roughly 20 percent of these events are missed, data from the clinical setting (patients presenting with chest pain or other relevant symptoms) indicate that only 2 percent to 4 percent are missed."

Still, they acknowledge that when laymen are trained to pretend to be a patient suffering from specific symptoms, studies show that "internists missed the correct diagnosis 13 percent of the time. Other studies have found that physicians can even disagree with themselves when presented again with a case they have previously diagnosed."

On the question of whether the diagnostic error rate has changed over time, Berner and Graber quote researchers who suggest that the near-constant rate of misdiagnosis found at autopsy over the years probably reflects two factors that offset each other:

  1. diagnostic accuracy actually has improved over time (more knowledge, better tests, more skills);
  2. but as the autopsy rate declines, there is a tendency to select only the more challenging clinical cases for autopsy, which then have a higher likelihood of diagnostic error. A long-term study of autopsies in Switzerland (where the autopsy rate has remained constant at 90 percent) supports the theory that the absolute rate of diagnostic errors is, as suggested, decreasing over time.


Nevertheless, nearly everyone agrees, the rate of diagnostic errors remains too high.

We need to revive the autopsy, Gawande argues. For "autopsies not only document the presence of diagnostic errors, they also provide an opportunity to learn from one's errors (errando discimus) if one takes advantage of the information.

"The rate of autopsy in the United States is not measured anymore," he observes, "but is widely assumed to be significantly 10 percent. To the extent that this important feedback mechanism is no longer a realistic option, clinicians have an increasingly distorted view of their own error rates.

"Autopsy literally means "to see for oneself," Gawande observes, and despite our knowledge and technology, when we look we are often unprepared for what we find. Sometimes it turns out that we had missed a clue along the way or made a genuine mistake. Sometimes we turn out wrong despite doing everything right.

"Whether with living patients or dead, we cannot know until we look. ... But doctors are no longer asking such questions. Equally troubling, people seem happy to let us off the hook. In 1995, the United States National Center for Health Statistics stopped collecting autopsy statistics altogether. We can no longer even say how rare autopsies have become."

If they are going to reflect on their mistakes, physicians need to "see for themselves."

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See more stories tagged with: health, health care, patient care, diagnostics, misdiagnosis, medical error, doctor error

Maggie Mahar is a fellow at the Century Foundation and the author of Money-Driven Medicine: The Real Reason Health Care Costs So Much (Harper/Collins 2006).

Niko Karvounis is a program officer with the Century Foundation in New York City, where he works on issues of socioeconomic inequality and healthcare. He is a regular contributor to Health Beat, the foundation’s healthcare blog.

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Overconfidence and accountability
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Jun 19, 2008 3:57 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Key points.

A lot of them seem to be like spoiled children: overpaid, over-admired, and fussed-over because they managed to get through medical school. We have a long history of thinking they are much smarter than us and have all the answers.

Many are notorious for not listening, and letting their egos get in the way of scientific reasoning. A friend of mine with a long list of health troubles sometimes spends years going from one to the next before she finds one who will take five minutes to listen to her explain her symptoms. And most of the time, the one that stops to listen is the one who ends up making the right diagnosis. Go figure.

The autopsy section brings up the broader issue of accountability. In an otherwise highly-regulated industry, there doesn't seem to be any checks and balances on these guys. A doctor can charge hundreds for a visit, misdiagnose, or do nothing, and still get paid without consequence. Meanwhile, all the patient can do is pay the bill, move on, and try to find a better doctor.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Doctors Should Just Say -"I Don't Know?"
Posted by: drricklippin on Jun 19, 2008 4:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
....But are patients really ready for that?
I think the mature ones are.

Many less mature patients,however,hunger for a "definitive diagnosis" since a specific label serves both medical science purposes and even more importantly serves to contain the diffuse anxiety and inevitable sense of loneliness which accompanies illness.

Yes we have deified medical science thus producing overconfidence and we have deified our doctors making them "MDeities" thus rendering them,like deities, perfect-thus incapable of error.

I blame mostly the paternalistic profession but immature patients share some of the blame for this dynamic.

We need a huge dose of hubris in organized medicine, much more individualizing of patients, and a patient movement (which is beginning) that relates to their doctors in a mature adult to adult manner -not as dependent children to a all knowing "parent".

Thank you Maggie and Niko for an excellent piece on an important topic of diagnostic medical errors which doesn't get the attention it deserves in the broad context of medical errors.

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa
http://medicalcrises.blogspot.com

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» Fair Point Posted by: Gravitas
physicians need to read....
Posted by: ellie on Jun 19, 2008 4:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
after a fun filled trip to the ER (while out of state this past weekend) for a chronic disease I have (tiger got it's tail away from me) and knowing the only option for not dying was a simply a bag or two of IV fluids to kick start the med I already had in me, I ended up with an ER doc who swore that I was in all kinds of horrible trouble and could easily die if I didn't allow him to have his way... he admitted during the big blow up that he last updated his treatment protocols for my disease 15 years ago!!!

signed myself out of the hospital after arguing my way through 2 bags of IV fluid, stuff began to smooth out, med worked and saw my own at home doc yesterday who agreed with me on emergency treatment... ER doc refused to call my own doc who happened to be on call for the weekend for his hospital...

so in retaliation this morning, tracked down ER docs email at the hospital, did a quick lit review for him and sent him a training email for how not to try to kill someone with my disease in the future... bet he doesn't even open the email but I feel better for doing my part...

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» Ever tried to do that? Posted by: photon's feather
» RE: ver tried to do that? Posted by: wolfgangmo75
To err is human, to ask for refund is lawyer
Posted by: flymulla on Jun 19, 2008 4:48 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Despite all of the talk about medical errors and patient safety, almost no one likes to talk about diagnostic errors.
And to forgive is divine, not the lady next door, but the mighty powers that we have above the acid clouds.
The reason we do not want to go to the press or tell anyone about our stupid visit to the particular doctor is, we are the laughing stock. People will laugh at us and say,”But my Susan, took my dog to Dr. Vet. B. Stress. Why don’t you see him? He is reasonable and has the knowledge of human too. He is fast and he is near on that corner. You need no bus.”
In case things go, wrong believe me no one wants to come in the TV and every time you walk, some nod the head and say, “That one.”
It is best to go to the insurance company, tell them all, and get as much as you can then travel to India.
I thank you
Firozali A. Mulla MBA PhD
P.O.Box 6044
Dar-Es-Salaam
Tanzania
East Africa

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They're not all "diagnostic errors"
Posted by: Last Chance on Jun 19, 2008 5:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Twice, so far, doctors have proposed an unnecessary operation that would have brought thousands of dollars to the doctor while risking my health and possibly my life. In NYC a doctor wanted to take out my gaul bladder because he claimed it was "diseased" which was a deliberate lie to get me on the operating table. Fortunately, a neighbor warned me and said he had submitted to gaul bladder removal and had been in failing health ever since. So, I investigated the cause of my stomach pains and nausea and discovered I had been eating to much ice cream. So I stopped, maintained a healthier diet, and never had another problem with my overtaxed gaul bladder.

The second time, a doctor wanted to operate on my prostate because the locally produced alternative medication wasn't working. He said it was "safe but not enough". I smelled another unecessary operation so I simply doubled the dosage and haven't had any problem with my prostate since then. But the poor doctor missed out on several thousand dollars for an operation based on his deliberately false diagnosis, and if I had died from complications it would have been murder. Many other less alert patients may not have survived to tell their stories.

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That is Where Guilt Over Lifestyle Comes In
Posted by: Gravitas on Jun 19, 2008 5:50 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On reason doctors can get away with it is the guilt we have over lifestyle issues. If a person happens to be even the slightest bit "overweight" and something goes wrong, doctors can point the finger at that and the patients will slink away with their tails between their legs, accepting all the blame and never even stopping to think it could be the doctor. Just look at Tim Russert's doctor, speaking to the media about weight right after he died. The man wasn't even that fat. But apparently the doctor felt a need to make sure no one blamed him so he selfishly made a big deal out of covering his own tracks. And the media bought it hook, line and sinker as usual! Tacky and classless all the way around!

Did you know there is actually an older study that found doctors/pilots have a higher rate of small plane crashes? The authors speculate it is because drs fly with a feeling of omnipotence, something instilled in them in medical school. It can be found in "The Doctor/Nurse Game," can't remember the authors offhand.

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» RE: Tim Russert Posted by: sweet_byrd
Statistical analysis in quality control
Posted by: fdgsr on Jun 19, 2008 6:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem comes down to the analysis and handling of quality control data. It is too complicated for the human brain. It requires computer models to handle the myriad a data and its meaning.

To illustrate, go to individual laboratory tests. Each text, by each methodology, by each set of reagents, by each technician, by each instrument, by each circumstantial condition, effect the predictive value of a test. From a laboratory quality control view, sensitivity and specificity are the keys. When sensitivity is 95%, it means that 5% of actual cases would be missed by the test. When specificity is 95%, it means that 5% of positive cases are wrong. These figures are statistically acceptable. But in 100 patients 5 would get a wrong diagnosis and 5 would be missed altogether. In a thousand patients that rises to a hundred errors.

At the application level by the physician a whole new set of hazards come into play. The skill of the diagnostician, the predictive value of the tests, and many more, including administrative errors, delays in reporting, failure to recognize patterns, etc.

Lay people and many professionals do not understand statistics and fewer apply them. Medicine is a meld of science and art with statistics and technology to increase life expectancy and reduce morbidity.

Statisticians often are knee-jerk operatives who use the data to present a pretty picture, not to discover determinate errors. This is administratively the goal of statistics. The goal is for advertising effect. Statistics are fudged at the technician level, at the each administrative level involved, and at the professional level. Statistics are both an excuse and protective device, and an incriminating and damaging evidence.

I used quality control in my laboratory experience to find errors that could be avoided, not to destroy anyone. I used it to guide corrections to the highest level of accuracy attainable with the equipment, personnel, and methods used. There is no such condition as perfection except in a perfect model. Perfect models exist only by reference in computer language.

The cost to me was lower pay, lower appreciation, and early retirement. Discovering error is not a high priority, but creating an illusion of perfection and excuses for failure are. I have about ten more years of life left, statistically, but I have no clue as to how much longer I will live or what I will die of. Any one ailment has an acceptable low level of expectation, but when combined with my age and all hazards, I will not live to 150 years. Death be not acceptable, but death is inevitable. Errors are predictable and manageable. I intend to live forever, disease free, and carefree. That is the promise of American democracy and medicine. But, if I do not, who cares?

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This all points to a larger problem
Posted by: form5166 on Jun 19, 2008 6:32 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This tendency towards dependency - on our government, our "experts," our institutions, anyone and anything that we think will "save" us from any distress we may be experiencing. We so often freely and completely hand over all responsibility to anyone who seems like they have all the answers to our problems. Then we whine and cry and initiate lawsuits when we end up even worse off than we were, and broke to boot.
We need to utilize these "experts" as merely resources within a context of taking up the ultimate personal responsibility for our own problems. Yes, some of the most arrogant "experts" will fight for the total control over us that guarantees them continued access to worship and wallets. But keep looking, eventually you will locate actual human beings who have some specialized knowledge, that they are humble about, and who will work with you as part of your team on whatever challenge you may have encountered.
But if you childishly and blindly hand it all over to anyone or anything else to make it all better for you, you probably deserve whatever you will get. No matter how much money you may throw at your saviours, or how many "benefits" you are "entitled" to.

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» You don't get it (all)... Posted by: photon's feather
» Exactly Posted by: EKSwitaj
You can always tell which procedures
Posted by: form5166 on Jun 19, 2008 7:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the insurance companies have decided to put out for, because all of the sudden, everyone is having those particular procedures done. Most likely, there are really good perks going to the doc's who go along with the game plan. It's all so sick and twisted.

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Medical Malpractice is 3rd leading cause of death in US
Posted by: bdcroan on Jun 19, 2008 7:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Medical Malpractice 3rd leading cause of death": This was information was published in a medical journal a few years ago and seemed to get little press. The AMA is only interested in assuring big fat salaries to their members and no continuous improvement loop to the profession. Bad doctors are not weeded out. We rely on the judicial system to do that via malpractice lawsuits, an inefficient method that closes the barn door after the horses escaped. And republicans want caps on awards but don't offer solutions to prevent the injuries that set the matter in motion. Indeed, why would you cap an award where a doctor intentionally diagnosed fictitious breast cancer and did a double radical mastectomy on your breasts just to make some money? We know there are lots of unnecessary surgeries on perfectly healthy people just to enrich the physician.

We pay the most for our healthcare and receive the least compared to other countries. The motto "Patient beware of your doctor" should be hung on every pratictioner's door.

I have my own experience with misdiagnosis for myself and friends. Unfortunately, every patient needs a healthy and knowledgeable advocate to watch over them when they are sick and vulnerable. Our healthcare system is broken.

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Mistakes are costly for the insured too
Posted by: desertrose on Jun 19, 2008 7:39 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In February, I went to the emergency room with an asthma attack. The emergency room doc got me breathing again, and had me stay overnight for observation. Seemed reasonable. However, when I was admitted, I suddenly became a cardiac patient, as a result of a slightly elevated troponine level, caused by the asthma attack. I knew I didn't have a heart problem, I've been a long distance runner for 30 years.
After an EKG, an echocardiogram, a stress test, and contating a patient advocate, I was finally released. That trip to the ER cost my insurance company $27,000 for a two day stay and expensive tests that I didn't need. No wonder health costs are spiraling.

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surgery bill for no surgery
Posted by: kathat on Jun 19, 2008 7:54 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have been sick for months and gone from dr to dr. Finally I end up in ER and am told I have a uretrocele and scheduled for surgery. I wake up from the surgery and am told that he didn't perform the procedure because the uretrocele is larger and higher up than he thought. Later in the recovery room, he states that I didn't need to fix the larger uretrocele and it wasn't what was making me sick.
So now I am back home and sick again. Also I now owe the total of about 1500. for the procedure.
I think doctors are simply good at memorizing facts and thats how they get through medical school...but as far as having commen sense or any kind of committment to their patient it's a joke.
I always look up and research my own illness and have always been correct. This one has me baffled though.
I don't see why they can't have a computer program that they enter symtoms and facts into, and it will spit out some recommeded tests and possible diagnoses. I seriously doubt any doctor who sees patients every 15 minutes and is thinking about his next trip to Aspen can make a correct diagnoses.
All I know is I hate them all and hope I never end up in a nursing home at their mercy.

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Overeducated dolts with a God-complex
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Jun 19, 2008 8:43 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not very often will you find a doctor that will tell you "Medicine isn't an exact science". There are a few but that's it.
In my own life I've had to endure some pretty shoddy medicine practices. I had a spinal cord aneurisim. Most well known hospitals like Mayo and Mt Sinai would'nt touch my case because it needed microscopic laser neurosurgery. Mostly I went miss diagnosed and fed the fear story that the slightest bump could cause my back to expolde and I'd die in mere seconds. Well it turned out nothing could've been further from the truth. But when such information comes to you from someone that speaks with authority,you but it. The thing is such a horid weight,no one should be forced to endure and there's no way to compenstae for such bad medicine practices. Now I deal with the VA. Some of the worst practioners on the Planet!!! I'd almost rather see a Witch Doctor than the VA. Actually I've learned so much about my condition that I know more about it than the Doc's that claim to treat me. Being proactive about your own health is your best medicine.
Learn 'Preventive Medicine'. It's mostly taking better care of yourself,vitamins,drink lots of water,good rest,lots of fruits and veggies and you won't get so much as a cold. Trust the Doc's and you might wind up dead from a hangnail.

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CORRECT GRAVITAS! ON DOCTOR-PATIENT RELATIONSHIPS
Posted by: drricklippin on Jun 19, 2008 8:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sorry you don't have health insurance.

But if and when you get it, you understand the essence of a good mature doctor-patient relationship.

At its very best the doctor gets as much healing as the patient

But few doctors understand that fundamental reality about healing or relationships.

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa

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» Too easy on the bastards! Posted by: photon's feather
Throwing in my rant
Posted by: shannasmusic on Jun 19, 2008 9:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are still paying off hundreds of dollars for an E.R. diagnosis of "a pulled muscle." Turned out my husband couldn't breathe at the time because he had mono, and his spleen was enlarged. He found that out a week or so later, when his illness forced him to go to in to our family physician. Now we are paying off a correct diagnosis on top of the ER visit.

I tend to do extensive google searches on the symptoms before going in to the doctor. Then the doctor and I can diagnose together. Patients definitely need to inform themselves. As a good friend of mine has said, they call the profession a "practice" for a reason.

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basic model is flawed
Posted by: spanky on Jun 19, 2008 10:28 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have been seeing a Traditional Chinese Medicine guy for anxiety and depression issues and during our initial consultation (which was 90 minutes and no charge - imagine that from a western doc), he drew up a pie chart representing the typical western doctor/patient model.

The doctor's responsibility was about 90% of the chart, and the patient just a tiny 10% sliver. The implication is that the patient comes to the doctor with no information, poor accounting of their symptoms, unwillingness to modify behavior, and poor understanding of interaction between mind, body, spirit; AND that the doctor has all the answers and is always right.

In his TCM model, the patient has 50% of the pie, doctor has 25%, and remaining 25% is left to fate, genetics, and other intangibles or factors which can't be controlled.

Conventional western medicine simply does not work for lots of things. For acute problems, life threatening illness, injury western medicine can be a life saver. But for chronic issues, basic health, complex mutlifaceted issues, etc western medicine is generally useless at best, downright dangerous at worst.

Instead of heading straight to your drug-pusher MD for that stomach problem or headache or emotional issue, how about acupuncture, massage, chiropractic, detox, diet, exercise, spiritual practice, meditation?

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Would You Like Fries With That MRI?
Posted by: NoPCZone on Jun 19, 2008 11:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just like seemingly everything else in America, the hurry-up and the bottom-line hustle has long ago invaded American Medicine. When you get someone looking at too many examinations too quickly for too long, mistakes are going to rear their ugly head. You would think that, especially given the price charged to read it, a Radiologist would take longer to read your CT or MRI than the kid behind the counter at Starbucks. If you knew the truth it would scare you to death.

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an alarming misdiagnosis of my own
Posted by: lawstudent08 on Jun 19, 2008 11:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Last fall I started suffering from severe shortness of breath and chest pain. I'm 24. I spent a week in the hospital and the doctors discharged me with a diagnosis of high blood pressure. Well, yeah, I had high blood pressure, but obviously something more was wrong. I went to a different ER 2 months later with the same symptoms, and I was told I was just constipated. Two weeks later, I went home for Christmas and got a third opinion, because I could barely walk 10 feet without getting short of breath. I was immediately admitted to the hospital with a diagnosis of congestive health failure. I lost 50 pounds in 5 days in the hospital, and it was all extra fluid building up in my system because of my damaged heart. I wasn't weighing myself regularly during the time leading up to the last hospitalization, or I would have noticed 10-pound weight gains overnight. Before the final hospital stay with the right diagnosis, I got to the point where I honestly thought it was all in my head and I must have just eaten too much junk food that week.

The kicker: that first week-long hospital stay cost $15,000. Luckily I was only responsible for about $1000 of it, but that's still $1000 too much for the shitty care they gave me.

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All these errors are exactly the reason
Posted by: steven w on Jun 19, 2008 1:21 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
why tort reform has been pushed so hard.

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» Tort Reform? Let's reframe: Posted by: bdcroan
All you people need to get a clue
Posted by: True2Blue on Jun 19, 2008 4:45 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a physician, it's always astounding to see the public at large pile-on after an article such as this is written. First of all, don't you realize that there's an entire industry devoted to bashing the medical system, and that articles such as these are it's core function, written by people who, surprise surprise, make money off of it? They love to talk on and on about "errors," but never tell you just how they define an error, whether it's trivial, or has no effect on patient outcome. You see, that would lower the error rate a lot, and that weakens their point.

Regardless of your profession, if I followed you around all day, and made note of every single thing you said and did, believe me, I would find lots of errors, too. Some of them might even be serious, but unknown, unless you had someone watching you every second. Hmm.

Yes, all doctors make mistakes, some more than others. Mistakes are also made by lawyers, accountants, plumbers, electricians, and priests. When a doctor makes a serious mistake, believe me, the patient and family know about it, unless they're completely clueless about modern medicine. And if there's hardship because of the mistake, an insurance company will pay. They often pay even when there was no hardship and no mistake, but that's a different issue.

What about the mistakes that kill people? Yes, doctors live with that risk every day. Do you think it's fun? No. I'd rather my profession not give me or anyone else that power. But then there would be no medical system at all.

And you say your doctor is arrogant and doesn't listen to you? Common sense says to get a new doctor. Most people by far still have that choice. For those that don't, you might want to work on changing the system.

And you think doctors make too much money? We probably think that about your profession, too. It seems to be human nature that each person believes anyone who makes more than they do is overpaid. But it's market forces at work. Doctors work very long hours and put in 7-10 years of training AFTER college. You won't find anyone who wants to do that for $40K per year. I'd be curious to know just how many of you complaining about doctors' salaries, who begrudge your doctor the $20 copay you owe, have no problem going to a pro football or basketball game, thus contributing more money to the illiterate millionaires you're watching.

And be sure to overlook the myriad of people who actually like their doctor, get good medical care, have had life-threatening illnesses diagnosed and treated, and send me cookies and fruit at Christmas.

And all the rest of you bitter people, I hope not to see you in my office the next time you have chest pain or a seizure or shortness of breath, because I'm an arrogant, uncaring, money-hungry moron. Instead, take a drive down to your local stadium, and ask for the star quarterback. He'll fix you right up.

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» Oh, you poor dear. Posted by: SpiderWoman
» RE: Oh, you poor dear. Posted by: True2Blue
» Where do you live?! Posted by: photon's feather
» I live in Massachusetts... Posted by: mjabele
» EXCUSE ME... Can you not read? Posted by: photon's feather
» And when did I say... Posted by: mjabele
» I agree with the doc. Posted by: wolfgangmo75
welcome to the world of iatrogenesis
Posted by: brianct on Jun 19, 2008 8:21 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Iatrogenesis is a very common thing in professional orthodox medicine. It kills more people than the military, and yet hardly is ever addressed beyond promise of more band aids.

Death by Medicine

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Three years ago my mom was in a doctor-induced decline
Posted by: Callibrarian on Jun 19, 2008 10:57 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
She wasn't feeling well, her body ached, she would have sharp pains, all these other problems.

Then I looked at the meds she was taking, starting with the first on prescribed.

My mother was on so many drugs you would have thought she had the same doctor as Elvis. The order went something like this: The first was for cholestoral. One side effect was high blood pressure. Instead of taking her off that med and putting her on a new one, the doctor prescribed something for high blood pressure, which caused sharp pain. So she was put on a pain killer, which caused constipation, so the doctor prescribed something for her constipation which caused pain in a different area. So the doctor gave her a stronger pain killer to alternate with the previous one. Then my mother started feeling depressed because she was sick all the time (imagine that!), thus the doctor gave her something for depression, and so on. By the end of the summer she was on 10 medications, 9 OF WHICH WERE TREATING THE SIDE EFFECTS CAUSED BY THE DRUG PRESCRIBED DIRECTLY BEFORE IT!

When I confronted the doctor she told me I didn't know what I was talking about, that one of the drugs didn't cause muscle pain (even though it said so in the literature), that another medication was fine to take and had few side effect (it was Vioxx) and that I didn't have a medical degree. But apparently I have something better---common sense. After seeing the way she treated my mother, I had my mother swicth doctors. The new one prescribed a new drug without big side effects, put a stop to the other ones, and now she only has little pains now and then. But what I beat myself up about is I never complained to the hospital what was going on. How many patients did the old doctor wind up killing?

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» Stop beating yourself up! Posted by: photon's feather
Doctors vs Lay People
Posted by: SpiderWoman on Jun 20, 2008 3:20 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article discusses extensively how often, and why, doctors misdiagnose. It's frightening. People have responded with their own stories of medical errors and mistreatment. One doctor has written acknowledging that such problems exist and refusing to let members of his profession off the hook. He gives us some hope that, maybe, just maybe, there are enough good doctors out there to counter the bad ones.

Then, two doctors act as apologists for the members of their profession, offering no ideas about how to resolve this problem or assuage the concerns and anger of the people who have written because their experiences indicate that the article is on target.

Those doctors seem to embody the attitude of their profession that so angers lay people. Arrogance. Assumption that they're entitled to incomes that most people can't even dream of. Redirection away from the subject at hand - medical practitioners' errors. Condescension towards their critics.

We're told to find another doctor - as if most of us really do have such a choice. Insurance companies don't support doctor shopping. When ill, people don't have time or energy to doctor shop. When referred to a specialist, people are not given a choice.

Comparisons with other professions. No other profession has people's lives in their hands. Doctors should take pride in being held to a high standard, not complain about it.

The statement was made: "What about the mistakes that kill people? Yes, doctors live with that risk every day." But, the people on the receiving end of those mistakes live with them for the rest of their lives, sometimes die from them. To expect the patient, the one on the receiving end, to feel sorry for the doctor's "risk" is - well, silly. That the doctor seemed more concerned about his own risk in terms of medical error than that of his patients is quite telling.

If a doctor is so sure that he's doing a good job and convinced that his patients love him, then why should he get so upset because a few people here complain about mistreatment? Why not ask, instead, how he can assure that he isn't one of those bad docs, and also how those bad docs could be removed from practice?

Whether doctors are the "primary" part of the healthcare problem or not, they are part of it and could surely do more to do a better job. As this article points out, the best tool in finding out about medical errors, autopsy, is hardly ever used anymore. Why aren't the doctors addressing this point - or any of the others made in the article?

This article wasn't about insurance or anything other than doctor misdiagnoses, which it does a good job of both documenting and explaining. Doctors who truly care should be responding to this and trying to find solutions, not being apologists for their profession.

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» Cont..... Posted by: mjabele
» Cont..... Posted by: mjabele
» My comments are mostly about bad doctors Posted by: photon's feather
Good article, followed by terrible posts.
Posted by: mjabele on Jun 20, 2008 10:19 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In point of fact, I'm doubtful that most posters even bothered to read this 6-page article. If they had, they might have noted towards the end that there's considerable evidence to suggest that the misdiagnosis rate has actually FALLEN over the past several decades - i.e., that "missed diagnoses" have actually become LESS rather than more common, contrary to what so many seem to prefer to believe. However, at the same time I fully agree with the article's basic point that the rate remains too high, and that we should continue to try to improve. Given the stakes involved, knowing personally that I've missed even one diagnosis a year would make me wonder about possible ways to improve.

Another point made in the article but missed by posters - and I find this deeply amusing, yet at the same time entirely consistent with my general impression of AlterNet's often smug and self-satisfied readership - is that the phenomenon of "medical arrogance" which so many of you like to dwell on in your comments actually represents nothing more than an extension of the overconfidence that most ordinary NON-medical people display in many of their professional and even non-professional (the article mentioned driving) activities. My wife, for instance - a business major who, tellingly perhaps, doesn't read AlterNet - immediately responded to my comments vis a vis this article by mentioning a study which apparently documented widespread "self-over-rating" of management skills among business managers.

The point, of course, is not so much that physicians don't need to improve, but rather that their faults aren't necessarily any different from those of non-medical people (including AlterNet readers) - it's just that the stakes are much higher given that health and often life are at risk, and the need to "do better" is therefore arguably more acute.

This, however, doesn't seem to really be what most posters want to hear, and rather than commenting or perhaps expanding on some of the points raised in this generally thoughtful piece, all we get is a chain of doctor-bashing posts.

There are a number of potential ways to reduce misdiagnosis rates, among which giving physicians more time to do their work in is one I don't want to neglect to mention, given my own primary care background; but the real key, as the article suggests, probably lies in changing thinking patterns during medical training, so that those fairly common tendencies toward "overconfidence" that we see in the general population - i.e., managers, drivers, etc. - end up becoming a bit more tempered by caution, humility, and, hopefully, a tendency toward repeated self-questioning and self-reflection. It's possible to do that - I certainly encountered clinicians with this kind of wisdom during my own medical training, and have tried to instill similar values into the providers I've been involved in training myself.

I can't help but add that some humility, self-questioning, and self-reflection might benefit some of the AlterNet readership as well.

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» Fair enough... Posted by: mjabele
» You just don't get it. Posted by: photon's feather
» No..... Posted by: mjabele
» Cont..... Posted by: mjabele
the effect of listening on talking
Posted by: sweet_byrd on Jun 20, 2008 10:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"One cannot expect doctors to learn from their mistakes unless they have feedback"

This is undoubtedly true. Patients need to keep their doctors (and former doctors) informed of what the real problem was so that they can learn to do things better the next time.

But most people give up on a doctor for a reason -- the staff is rude or incompetent, the doctor seems brusque and uncaring, or any number of other reasons. The article even mentions that "The breakdown in clinical reasoning often occurs because the physician isn't willing or able to 'reflect on [his] own thinking processes and critically examine [his] assumptions, beliefs, and conclusions.'".

Those who wonder why patients leave a doctor and never return -- do they think patients can't tell when a doctor jumps to a conclusion too quickly or too conveniently? Do they think we don't know that we're on a conveyor belt at the doctor's office, and that the staff wants nothing so much as to get us in and out as quickly as possible? When we as patients feel un-listened to, we metaphorically vote with our feet. And why would we spend our time telling the doctor who got it wrong what the correct diagnosis was when they didn't listen to us the first time? My assumption (and I wouldn't be surprised at all if it is a widespread one) would be that the doctor would ignore me again. Why should I set myself up for that? On the nebulous possibility that the doctor will listen this time and thus incrementally better their patient care? -- sorry, but that seems to remote a possibility and a benefit for me to spend my time on.

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» You're not alone! Posted by: photon's feather
» RE: You're not alone! Posted by: pomes
Re: Tim Russert
Posted by: sweet_byrd on Jun 20, 2008 10:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was absolutely appalled at the (blessedly brief) media discussion of Mr. Russert's weight. Given how stigmatized weight is in this culture, it was tantamount to the proverbial "speaking ill of the dead". Doesn't anyone have any decency any more? I suppose I'm not shocked -- being overweight is freighted with cultural baggage that ranges from unintelligence and lack of personal responsibility to poor personal hygiene (even when these assumptions are blatantly contradicted by the facts).

I wondered what any discussion of Mr. Russert's weight was supposed to accomplish. The man is dead (may he rest in peace) -- it isn't like this will convince him to diet! Was it merely to blame him for his own early demise? I don't see anyone bringing up "dangerous occupations" in any discussion of the FDNY personnel who died in the WTC. All it did, form my point of view, was illustrate how deeply contemptuous this society is of "being fat" -- to the point that they are willing to disparage a dead man during media coverage that was generally billed as a "tribute" to him.

People disgust me. Given the choice between adding excess pounds and engaging the kind of rude, inhumane behavior that was displayed, I'd rather be fat any day. Weight doesn't say anything about the content of one's character, unlike the other.

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I'm not a doctor but ....
Posted by: runswithscissors on Jun 20, 2008 6:53 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a nurse in an extremely busy GP office and I will be the first to say that we make mistakes. We are human and err from time to time. So, I'd like to ask for a little help from you, the public, to assist us in diagnosing and treating you.

1. Know your medications. Bring a list, bring the bottles, have your pharmacist on speed dial, whatever it takes. We do not know what you take. Yes, you've been coming here for 20 yrs but so have all those other people in the waiting room who are irritated now because I have to spend 10 minutes trying to figure out what that tiny white pill you take for your "pressure" is. (actually I know this one, it's probably HCTZ)

2. Schedule an appointment. I can't tell you how many pts just show up and want to talk to one of us for "just a second". You can see the waiting room is packed, that we are running behind, and yet, you will stop me in the middle of assisting another pt, who actually HAS an appt, to ask if I can look at your rash "real quick". Um, no, I can't. But if you go over there and talk to Sally she'll be glad to schedule you an appt. Oh, by the way, we're working you in so there will be a wait.

3. We don't treat over the phone. I know you've had this before, I know that Zpack worked for you last time but you must come in to be examined.

4. Don't give me your diagnosis, give me your symptoms. I know you feel like hell.. but I don't know what "the crud" is. I don't know what "same thing as last time" is either. I have an idea of what "all stove up" is but please, explain it to me anyway.

5. Please, do us both a favor and call your pharmacy BEFORE your bottle is empty. Many times the pharmacy must wait for an approval from our office before they can refill your medicine and we handle those messages between pts. Or during our lunch hour, or long after the rest of you have gone home for the day.

6. Tell me the truth. If you smoke 2 packs a day tell me. Honestly, we can smell you coming but still, tell me how much you smoke. And gentlemen, please don't tell me you are there for a physical when the fact is all you want is a prescription for Viagra. We're all adults here, there's no need to be coy and waste everyone's time.

7. Step on the scale. Just step on the scale. If you insist on emptying your pockets please do it before I call you back to the room. Ladies, your flip flops do not weigh 10 lbs. Your eyeglasses don't weigh anything either. And no, I'm not deducting 20 lbs for your clothing. Seriously, if you are overweight, do you think no one notices until you get on the scale?

8. One at a time please. I know you and your spouse "became one" at the altar but for our purposes you are not. It's best that the doctor focus on only one of you during the visit. Exceptions are made for the elderly and small children.

9. Results take time. That goes for test results and for the healing results of your medication. You were in yesterday, received an injection, started your antibiotic but today you still feel bad! Well, it's not magic. You have a virus and it just takes time. As for test results.. they must be interpreted, dictated, printed, faxed and shown to the physician. I know this is a fast food society we live in now but if you figure out how to Google your own results please let me know. Otherwise we all just have to wait.

10. We really do care. Most of us would not be in this profession if we didn't care. I know we seem to be cold at times but please remember that we are AT WORK. We're thinking, we're juggling, we're trying to figure out what will make you feel better.

I love my job. Help me to help you. Thank you.

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» RE: I'm not a nurse but .... Posted by: asilsfable
» RE: I'm not a nurse but .... Posted by: runswithscissors
» RE: I'm not a doctor but .... Posted by: AvalonSeeker
Medical Zionism
Posted by: Paxmana1 on Jun 24, 2008 3:08 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These people are extremely well paid for what they do but I swear these medics have abandoned the Hippocratic principles upon which they were founded .. the synthetic pills are a killers charter .. there is no scientific evidence .. millions die on an annual basis and millions in third world countries are treated as guinea pigs.

The Materia Medica is a killers charter .. My copy of Martindales contains thousands of these monograph killer pills and not one of the mongraphs is free of extremely nasty side effects.

Bash Doctors? what about the Patient Bashing, with this gutter pharmacy with which they medicate us. Dr Rath who was treating African AIDS victims on a nutritional basis in South Africa has been hauled in front of the SA Medical Mafia .. thats what they do to dissenters.I think they have accused him of being unethical .. ROFL

Sue these medical monsters out of business and give the money to the millions who have been harmed but have no voice. Pharmageddon stalks the slums of the world with dripping needles and lethal pills.

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» Uh-oh... Posted by: pomes
Why is our health care system in shambles?
Posted by: pomes on Jun 25, 2008 4:29 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Three words: health care rationing.

If you don't like it that way, try these three: duty to die.

Google those terms and learn a lot. Medical "ethics" is about bringing us from the sanctity of life to euthanasia. The real problem is that there's too many of us, and a lot of us are going to have to die so the elite can have more safari grounds.

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Derek Bye, Poole, Dorset
Posted by: Helenor on Jun 27, 2008 3:21 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1] The Sickness. Throughout the centenaries the western world, through medical science, have found cures to prevent many of the health problems associated with the twentieth centenary. Some diseases still perplex doctors and scientists, such as cancer and arthritis. Together with the implications of Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob [CJD], these medical conditions will test the very best experts of medical research in the new millennia. However, one disease, which has been allowed and encouraged to proliferate and become the biggest financial drain on the NHS, without any check, or embarrassment to those who inflict this dreaded disease, is the condition ‘Iatrogenesis.’ No, this is not a condition contacted through eating fruit or vegetables drenched in herbicides or pesticides, or through drinking water polluted with contaminates. Iatrogenesis is a medical condition, induced by a physician on man, caused by his/her medical intervention, through medical error, medical drug abuse, wrong diagnostic procedures or treatment.

2] The Deceit.
Throughout the centenary many a means has been conjured-up to disguise Iatrogenesis from the patient. More commonly known amongst the medical profession as a MEDICAL COCK-UP, doctors have hidden their incompetence under the pretence of very rare conditions for years. Sample excuses used to deceive are - unexplained cause of death, genetic disorders, degenerative decease of the liver and a very rare condition. Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy, [PSBP] Myalgic Encephalomyelitis, [ME] are also labels used to victimise parents and patients. However, their latest means to disassociate themselves from medical error and medical drug abuse is to suggest the patient have an unusual predisposition to medicine or vaccines. If a predisposition to medicine or vaccines is used as an excuse for death, why are we vaccinating children like cattle? [Herd Vaccination].

By prescribing unlicensed drugs to children with no data, no efficacy, no forensic scientific paediatric toxicology is criminal. This hidden agenda by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Royal College of Pathology is no advancement to paediatric medicine, but a deliberate ploy to camouflage the inefficiencies of pharmaceutical products for children.

This self-preservation by the medical profession is done to uphold their position of privilege in their known culture of deceit. In addition, the perpetrators of Iatrogenesis are able though the collaborating postures of pharmaceutical industries and coroners minimise the risk of exposing doctor’s illegal, clinical abuse of medical drugs, through the outdated ritual of a coroner’s inquest. Our children have become a ‘pharmaceutical paradise’ and death by natural causes remains the paediatric sin bin.

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