COMMENTS: 232
Worse Than Fascists: Christian Political Group 'The Family' Openly Reveres Hitler
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The Family was founded 70 years ago by Abraham Vereide, a Norwegian immigrant evangelist based in Seattle. In 1935, Vereide said, God appeared to him in a vision and revealed where Christianity had gone wrong: preoccupation with the poor, the weak and the suffering.
The down-and-out were in no position to bring about the Kingdom of God, Vereide realized. Some Christians believe that the rapture is imminent, but not the Family. They're convinced that Jesus won't return until we get our collective house in order. If they were to wait for the down-and-out to remake the world in God's image, we could be here forever.
Besides, in Seattle in the 1930s, union agitators were making a play for the down-and-out. Christianity promised rewards in the hereafter, but workers in the Pacific Northwest were starting to wonder why they had to wait so long. Instead of competing for market share with the Industrial Workers of the World, Vereide sought a different niche.
His new plan was to target men who were already powerful and turn them to God -- and wouldn't you know it, God hated unions, too.
Through personal relationships and small group encounters, Vereide united captains of industry and politicians as a Biblical bulwark against the increasing power of organized labor.
In the late 1940s, the Family helped roll back key pro-labor provisions of the New Deal. Later, the Family did its part for the Cold War by cultivating anti-communist strongmen around the world, including repressive leaders like Suharto of Indonesia and Jonas Savimbi of Angola.
The roster of current and former Family members includes senators, congressmen, Fortune 500 CEOs, generals and at least one Supreme Court justice. The Family does not publish membership lists, and its members are sworn to secrecy, so a full accounting is impossible.
Sen. Hillary Clinton has been involved with the Family since 1993 when, as first lady, she joined a White House prayer circle for political wives. Clinton has also sought spiritual counseling from the current head of the Family, Doug Coe. Sharlet argues that Clinton's longtime association with the Family has helped her forge working relationships with powerful religious conservatives such as Family member and anti-abortion crusader Sen. Sam Brownback of Kansas.
The Family nurtures the next generation of prayer warriors in suburban dormitories. Sharlet spent nearly a month living at Ivanwald, a dormitory in Virginia where sons of the Family are sent to immerse themselves in Jesus and clean the toilets of congressmen and senators.
The Family also runs a house on C Street in Washington, D.C. The C Street Center has housed a number of federal legislators, including Sen. John Ensign of Nevada. Residents allege that the center is just a cheap place to live, but as an Ivanwald brother, Sharlet saw firsthand that the center is a religious community. As far as the IRS is concerned, the C Street Center is a church.
Members will tell you that the Family is just a group of friends. As Sharlet discovered, 600 boxes of documents at the Billy Graham Center Archives tell a different story.
AlterNet writer Lindsay Beyerstein recently sat down with Jeff Sharlet at a Brooklyn coffee shop to discuss the Family.
Lindsay Beyerstein What is the Family?
Jeff Sharlet: It's an international network of evangelical activists in government, military and business. The Family is dedicated to this idea that Christianity has gotten it all wrong for two thousand years by focusing on the poor, the suffering and the weak.
The Family says that instead, what Christians should do is minister to the up-and-out -- as opposed to the down-and-out -- to those that are already powerful. Because if they can win those people for Christ, they win the whole deal. That's what this network is dedicated to. It includes nonprofit organizations, it includes think tanks, it includes various ministries.
Lindsay Beyerstein: Where did they get the idea that they should be ministering to the up-and-out? There doesn't seem to be a lot basis in Christianity for that view.
Jeff Sharlet: Two places. The founder of the Family, Abraham Vereide, would describe it as his "new revelation" that came to him in the middle of the night, very literally: in a vision from God in 1935 in response to the Great Depression and, more particularly, to a series of very successful labor strikes that he saw as challenging God's sovereignty. So, God comes and gives him this new revelation to say, "This is what I really meant …"
Early on, Vereide and the Family weren't actually talking about scripture, but as time went on they began invoking more and more a particular verse of Paul's Letter to the Romans, which is popular among fundamentalists, Romans:13: "The Powers that Be are Ordained of God." And it goes on to say that if you resist those powers, you're in a lot of trouble. Interpreted literally, this is the key text in authoritarian Christianity. So, that's where they're getting it.
Lindsay Beyerstein: In "The Family," a lot of subjects explicitly state their admiration for Hitler and other authoritarian political figures. How much of that is admiring their style, and how much is admiring their substance?
Jeff Sharlet: I'd argue that there isn't a hell of a lot of difference. I spent a lot of time living with these guys, and I remember at one point asking them, "What's the deal with all this Hitler talk?" And they'd say, "Oh, it's not the ends, it's the means." But to most of us, the means seem pretty bad, too. The means are authoritarianism.
It's pretty close to the substance because it grows out of this very broad movement in the 1930s of elites concluding that democracy has run its course, that democracy was a temporary phase in world history. And so, these people were experimenting with all sorts of different alternatives. And remember, before World War II it was considered a perfectly legitimate and acceptable position to endorse fascism.
Lindsay Beyerstein: When I read the book, I found myself thinking about Umberto Eco's essay, "Eternal Fascism," which provides a kind of checklist of the essential characteristics of fascism. How many of those criteria does the Family meet?
Jeff Sharlet:The book I find helpful as a succinct guide to fascism is a book by historian Robert Paxton. He'll boil it down into five principles or ten principles. The Family's always hovering around 80 percent, but never all the way.
And that's an important distinction to make. I think many progressives want to reduce everything bad to fascism. There's more than one kind of bad under the sun. One of the arguments in this book is that these guys aren't fascists; they're ultimately something worse. They're not fascists because they don't explicitly revere violence. Lots of violence occurs through various dimensions, but in fascism, violence is thought to have redemptive power.
Lindsay Beyerstein: So, they don't literally believe in physical conflict when they describe themselves as warriors for Christ?
Jeff Sharlet: Oh, no. (They think) that's fine, but they don't love violence the way that fascism did. Their leader, Doug Coe, says that the Bible is filled with mass murderers. And it is. The difference is that European fascism was based on this idea that you can only become truly human through violence. The Family will say, oh no, we're pursuing peace. Hitler wasn't pursuing peace. The goal was this constant redemptive violence.
The other thing is they differ in the strictness of their nationalism. The Family is an American ideology, and it has a lot of American ideology involved, but still it was founded by a Norwegian immigrant. It's more pluralist than European fascism that was about cleansing the blood. The Family is an imperial ideology, which is why I think it's ultimately worse than fascism. Since the Second World War, fascism hasn't been a very powerful ideology, but imperialism has.
Lindsay Beyerstein: What kind of empire do they envision?
Jeff Sharlet: They envision the empire that we have. Doug Coe says, "We work with power where we can and build new power where we can't." Usually they can work within power. Rob Shank, another Christian right activist in Washington, says, "The Family is into living with what is."
In the immediate postwar era, they were talking about Christian D-Day and Washington as the world's Christian capital. And World War Three, they were very excited about that, all full-steam ahead. But they sort of subsided and were subsumed into the American Cold War project, which ended up becoming an imperial project.
Lindsay Beyerstein: What did the Family have to do with a B-movie called "The Blob"?
Jeff Sharlet: The best illustration of the Family's involvement in the Cold War was something that I stumbled on by accident: The 1958 film "The Blob." It began at the 1957 National Prayer Breakfast. "The Blob" was a famous horror movie that was a metaphor for Communism. This is their imagination of how Communism spread. At the time, the American imagination couldn't grasp ideology, so it had to be an actual goo that globs more and more people and grows and becomes expansive. As I recall, they have to blow up the town at the end. The logic of "The Blob" is that we must destroy the village in order to save it. That's the logic of Vietnam.
The project actually began at the National Prayer Breakfast. This filmmaker who had been making fundamentalist films, Irvin "Shorty" Yeaworth, was on the lookout for someone to make this film. (The writer) Kate Phillips was a B-movie sci-fi actress. Not a Christian Right person; (she was) there as a guest of a friend of hers. She's there at the breakfast and they become friends. They end up making this movie.
"The Blob" was paralleled with this other movie. This other movie that comes out of the Prayer Breakfast is "Militant Liberty." John Groger, on Family payroll and on the Pentagon payroll, he was obsessed with making these kooky films that were almost too weird for the Pentagon, like "Operation Abolition," because it was so trippy and so bent on blaming the spread of Communism on Japanese youth culture.
Lindsay Beyerstein: On Japanese youth culture?
Jeff Sharlet: Don't forget, there was a pretty powerful Japanese communist movement after the Second World War. Japan would have been a communist country had it not been for us buying their political system wholesale.
So, that's "The Blob." The whole approach represents their understanding of Communism and the way America responded. Tim Weiner, in "Legacy of Ashes," has a devastating critique. The real issue is incompetence -- they never understood who they were fighting. You might say, "Hey, I'm down with anti-communism" -- but they were always bent on fighting with these crazy schemes and networks. That's not the way to combat Stalinism, which is an evil ideology.
It's just as true now, when I look at what the Family does today in the Central Asian Republic. The 1999 Silk Road Strategy Act, sponsored by Sam Brownback, and Rep. Joe Pitts renewed it in 2006. Combat militant Islam in Central Asia by pouring American aid into dictatorial regimes. This same kind of top-down aid.
Thugs have always understood that they could use the Family. … When you see Suharto getting down on his knees and praying to Jesus with members of the Family -- he's Muslim, technically, but he's not even really that; he's a dictator.
Lindsay Beyerstein: Sort of like Daniel Plainview in the movie "There Will Be Blood"? (Plainview is the cynical oil man who makes a big show of converting to Christianity at a revival meeting to consolidate his power in town.)
Jeff Sharlet: Daniel Plainview had more integrity. That's a nice comparison, I hadn't thought of that. Some of these central Asian dictators are not drinking the Kool-Aid.
(At some level, the Family understands.) One member says that he'd rather let in a few wolves then keep out one sheep. I just want to know: When is the sheep getting here? Because all they've got are wolves.
The more interesting analysis is to view it not as cynicism but as a logical outcome of a theology that reveres power. This is not their system not working; it's their system working.
Lindsay Beyerstein: Does this attitude have to do with the Family's unusual theology? In the book you say that they teach a kind of ultrasubjectivism, stripping away all history, doctrine, institutions and all rituals until "religion" is just what pops into your head.
Jeff Sharlet: This is very important. It's a seductive idea for many on the left as well. These attitudes go back to 1930s. It was part of the feeling that democracy had run its course.
Whenever you strip away history, you are stripping away accountability. The irony is that sometimes people on the left make the same kind of noises, like, "We're not going to get all caught up in institutions and religions" -- leaving aside the history of that rhetoric in anti-Catholicism and anti-Semitism.
Whenever you strip away history, you are stripping away things you wish you hadn't done, and accountability for that. When people say that "we're not going to get all caught up in the law and the rules," they mean anti-Semitism. They may not know they mean that that's the history of it.
Lindsay Beyerstein: They think it's bad even to know about history?
Jeff Sharlet: They just don't care. One of the ironies of this book is that now they're in my debt. I know more about the history of their movement than they do. (That's why they were so casual about what ended up in the Family's records at the Billy Graham archives.) It didn't even occur to them that anyone would find anything wrong there, including various government documents that shouldn't have been there.
Lindsay Beyerstein: There's a story in the book that says a lot about how the Family operates, the one about the South African secrecy memo …
Jeff Sharlet: My favorite document in the entire archives. This was, I think, sometime in the '80s, the Family was very involved in South Africa supporting a right-wing black movement lead by Mangosuthu Buthelezi. They were part of a group of white South Africans cultivating him. A Family operative wrote a letter to a colleague saying, "You've got to be very careful, those outside we don't understand. That's why we do things through networks and friendships and travel around. Never put anything too specific on paper." The guy wrote back: "I understand, I've made copies of this for all my co-workers." I don't know whether he was passive aggressive, or just dumb as a brick.
Lindsay Beyerstein: In the book you say that the Family treats powerful women like Hillary Clinton as if they belonged to a kind of "third gender" that's female but not subordinate like ordinary women …
Jeff Sharlet: When I was at Ivanwald, I'd see these young women as servants. They came from wealthy families. They were women who have a lot of privileges in life. You'd have expected to have gone on to great things because they started with a big push [LB Note: But the Family had them scrubbing floors and serving coffee.] Then a woman political leader would come around and it would be a whole different story.
There are wives like Grace Nelson, wife of conservative Democrat Bill Nelson. Bill was an astronaut -- still has a spacesuit. He still wears it for occasions.
Lindsay Beyerstein: The suit still fits?
Jeff Sharlet: He's quite trim, I'll give him that. But Grace is obviously the political mover and shaker in that couple. She served on board of the Fellowship Foundation. Still, she's just the wife, secondary. Same with Joanne Kemp. Jack Kemp is a pretty aggressive leader, but it was Joanne who brought Christian ideas to Washington to start the Schaeffer Foundation nonprofit for the study of these ideas.
Two ways third gender works in the Family: There are these very strong wives who oftentimes are very strong-willed people. I'm just reading Katherine Joyce's book on Quiverfull … And the other are women like Hillary Clinton, who's just a man as far as they're concerned.
Lindsay Beyerstein: What's Hillary's involvement with the Family? What is she getting out of it?
Jeff Sharlet: As I was researching the book, I knew Hillary had this strange connection. I didn't think much of it until I was reporting on Sen. Sam Brownback. Everyone knew I was a reporter from "Rolling Stone," probably more liberal than they were. So, a way that a lot of Family people would reach out to be friendly was to tell me that Hillary Clinton was OK with them. They'd tell me that HRC was going for regular spiritual counseling with Doug Coe.
Lindsay Beyerstein: Is she still getting counseling from him?
Jeff Sharlet: This was in 2005, and she refused to say anything about this. When NBC questioned her about this, her only answer was that (she's) not a member and (she) has never given Doug Coe money -- which was a strangely parsed kind of answer.
Lindsay Beyerstein: The Family has some strange ideas about what it means to be chosen by God. Tell me about the incident in the book when Doug Coe's son, David Coe, dropped by Ivanwald to give the brothers instruction on chosenness.
Jeff Sharlet: David Coe used to be the heir apparent in the Family. He's still involved in ministry to congressmen, and at the time he was also meeting with Hillary. He'd come around to talk to the young guys at Ivanwald to talk about his vision of Biblical leadership. One day he says to brother Beau: "Suppose I heard you'd raped three little girls, what would I think of you?" Beau, being a human being, says, "That I'm pretty bad?" But David Coe says: "No, no, I wouldn't. Because you're chosen … like King David."
Lindsay Beyerstein: Does the Family have a different perspective on sexual morality than mainstream fundamentalism?
Jeff Sharlet: In one sense, their sexual morality is a very restrictive, traditional, fundamentalist morality. Yet one of their major influences was Frank Buchman of Moral Re-Armament in the 1930s. He was all but "out" as gay. But he was also one of the early architects of anti-gay invective on the Christian right. He even wrote a pamphlet on how to spot gay men: their green shoes and their affection for suede.
Lindsay Beyerstein: Explicit sexual confession in small groups is a big deal in the Family, right?
Jeff Sharlet: Yes. I started paying attention when I visited Westmont College, a major recruiting base for the Family. Some of the professors are very concerned about the focus on small group sex confessions: Parents are spending $80,000 to send their kids to college, and they go off to become a driver for Doug Coe. Then they tell their parents that they sat in a circle and talked about masturbation. Of course, they don't do that sort of thing at the weekly prayer meeting in the Senate.
Sam Brownback told me, there are two functions of sexual confession: You confess, and they help you. You say, "My girlfriend and I almost held hands the other day." And they say "Don't do it, brother!" It's also a way of creating a bond in the group: If I have had gay thoughts and I tell the group, then they have something on me. And if you say you've cheated on your wife, they have something on you.
Lindsay Beyerstein: Kind of a mutually assured destruction?
Jeff Sharlet: Yeah.
Lindsay Beyerstein: An interesting paradox comes through in the book. The Family is both revolutionary and elitist. They see themselves as warriors fighting to remake the world, but really they are the establishment.
Jeff Sharlet: All that revolutionary rhetoric serves a very status quo version of the world. The real threat of the right is not what they're going to do, but what they've done. You have to consider what happens in America, which is part of the empire, versus what happens in the rest of the world. Here, they think things should stay as they are. Like rolling back FDR's New Deal. FDR came along and said, "Let's change things." The Family said no.
Lindsay Beyerstein: So, you have to consider what happens in America, which is part of the empire, versus what happens in the rest of the world.
Jeff Sharlet: All that revolutionary rhetoric serves a very status quo version of the world. The real threat of the right is not what they're going to do, but what they've done. You have to consider what happens in America, which is part of the empire, versus what happens in the rest of the world. Here, they think things should stay as they are. Like rolling back FDR's New Deal. FDR came along and said, "Let's change things." The Family said no.
Abroad, Suharto was supporting very violent revolution that reasserted hierarchical control. People had gotten out from under colonial yoke; if they go democratic, they might choose socialism or whatever. But Suharto came along and reasserted the hierarchy.
Lindsay Beyerstein: So, the Family loves the revolutionary rhetoric, but they're really about keeping things the way they are?
Jeff Sharlet: It's about the co-optation of cool by Madison Avenue. Counterculture is cool, and it's the bestselling tool ever. Capitalism has always had this understanding that we could use this counterculture rhetoric (as an alternative to communist rhetoric). In the 1950s, Eisenhower recognized that the rhetoric of communism was much more appealing to the average person than rhetoric of capitalism. "Everyone's going to share" is more appealing than "If you're lucky, you'll make a living, and if you're not lucky, it's your own damned fault and you'll suffer."
So, the government in a big way turns toward the Religious Right to market capitalism. It flopped. So, they tried spreading people's capitalism by focusing on the love part.
The right understood that in a way that the left doesn't. A left that organizes itself solely in a reactionary way is missing something. You can't just say: "Look, another corrupt Bush official!" No. What's needed is a much more joyful politics.
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Posted by: andabottleof_rum on Jun 12, 2008 12:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's take the literal interpretation, and if a person believes in the Bible and in Biblical literalism, then the literal interpretation must be taken very seriously, since it is the word of the infinite God, compared to which all else is for all intents and purposes nothing. A camel cannot pass through the eye of a needle. It is impossible. Therefore a rich man cannot enter heaven. It is impossible.
This is the literal interpretation of what the Bible reports Jesus to have said. Therefore if a person is a Biblical literalist Christian, then this interpretation must be a holy truth; it must be absolute, perfect, the word and will of the divine.
Because, in mainline Christian theology, the only alternative to heaven in the afterlife is hell, where the flames burn you but do not consume you forever, the proper literal interpretation should be read to say that all rich men shall burn forever in hell when they die.
Any Christian who doesn't believe rich men are going to hell is not a literalist.
Personally, I'm an atheist with Catholic sympathies, having been raised Catholic, so I don't believe rich people are going to hell. I believe death is simply oblivion, like before we were born (or conceived - or before our embryonic brains developed to the point where we could be aware of anything).
I make the argument above because it should seem obvious to any Christian who prides himself or herself on holding a literal interpretation of the Bible, thereby enhancing that person's sense of purity, that wealth is a sure passport into hell, according to the sources of the person's spiritual views. To a Biblical literalist, like the evangelicals and fundamentalists, allying oneself with the wealthy, or admiring the wealthy, should seem like an abomination. Wealthy people should look like impure filth in the eyes of fundamentalists.
I write this as a reminder for the fundamentalist of what they are supposed to believe as regards wealth.
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» Exactly!
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: xactly!
Posted by: Cybershaman
» Camels and Ropes
Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: Christian fundamentalists share common traits with the so-called 'strict-constructionist'
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: Christian fundamentalist who shun the poor are the greatest hypocrites.
Posted by: TagsNOLA
» RE: Christian fundamentalist who shun the poor are the greatest hypocrites.
Posted by: Christisvictor
» gobbledegoop
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: gobbledegoop
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: do YOU want to be held accountable....
Posted by: yellow
» Their Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus....
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Their Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus....
Posted by: dmmaze6
» Your theology is incorrect
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: ankhet on Jun 12, 2008 1:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Purple Girl on Jun 12, 2008 3:58 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Peter and Paul despised women and resented Mary Magdelene for her closer Proximity to Jesus- thus the made her a Whore, then went about destroying any and all who may have even thought to revere her.
By using their religious dogma they helped the Oppressive Roman empire, that was finally beginning to fail, to conquer others not Only through might- but not a 'Holy Ordained' Mandate.
Now overlay that technique with that of the Neo cons over the last 40 yrs.Hillary's Highjacking of the Women's movement is the most currrent seige and target of such ideology.By using the 'Sexism 'Card she effectively told the World - women are vindictive and feel they are 'Due' and that they Require all Bars be lowered to achieve any task set before them .Bills' 'The Boys are Not Playing Nice' comment was Proof, in their view Women must be handled with Kit gloves. She did not play a different game- but only wanted the Rules changed to accomadate Her.
they needed an infiltrator to begin to undermine the real efforts of Women. Make them look as though they are vindictive, demanding and indignant about being treated like a man.I have no doubt through this subversive process Hillary would have changed a Woman's Right to choose to the right to have our children,by turning the conversation to the idea we are Being forced to Work outside the Home.
Hillary is no doubt a 'Feminist' but she is No Libber.And Her intentions and Motivations have become very clear throughout her Senate and Campaign time.Her 'Obliterate Iran' with Nukes told me she was a Follower of the Hagee Armegeddon Theology.She made my skin crawl with gutteral Apprehension regarding her True Beliefs. And I voted for Bill 2x's and WAS an Avid Defender of Both. Once I was Blind But Now I See.
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» RE: pfeifer999
Posted by: gradioc
» Male dominated church
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Male dominated church
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: pfeifer999
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
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Posted by: Urstrly on Jun 12, 2008 4:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I worked on Capitol Hill, I went to a Moral Rearmament concert. The singers were freshly scrubbed with beauty contest smiles, and they were integrated racially, which was pretty unusual in conservative circles in those days. I was approached by a woman from my Baptist church about joining up. She stressed that they were looking for attractive young people, but something about it gave me the creeps, and I asked her not to contact me again.
Not until I read this on Alternet the first time it ran did I fully understand that the prayer breakfasts had any connection to Moral Rearmament; I suspect most Washingtonians don't.I left the Baptist church and conservative politics behind as I matured, so I have hope that articles like this will wake up young people.
I disagree with Shartlet on one point: how can we say these people don't glorify violence as cleansing? How do you think we got into this war in Iraq, and what about those "Christians" who can't wait for Armageddon?
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» exactly right
Posted by: citizenjoe
» RE: It's Not Overt
Posted by: buberfan
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Posted by: Last Chance on Jun 12, 2008 4:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» You Evidently Live in the 13th century
Posted by: yellow
» The Dalen Book is published by Regnery which means it has a strong right wing bias.
Posted by: yellow
» The 1933 Concordat is sufficient indictment of The Vatican which never really helped European Jews
Posted by: yellow
» RE: please be more thorough
Posted by: yellow
» Dalen is a liar. Your assertion that Jewish leaders requested the Pope's silence is outrageous!!
Posted by: yellow
» Pfeifer999, you are an anti-semitic liar and so are the openly racist sources you use.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Pfeifer999, you are an anti-semitic liar and so are the openly racist sources you use.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Alternet has rules against personal attacks
Posted by: yellow
» RE: sure, THIS post you don't want to come off as snarky. You fulfill that urge elsewhere.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: sure, I go back in forth in my phone booth
Posted by: poetac
» RE: You Evidently Live in the 13th century
Posted by: Jbuuty
» Your point is well taken on both Religion and Stalin.
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: solrev on Jun 12, 2008 4:48 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Many of those who believe in Black Helicopters are self-professed Christians as well.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh............
Posted by: JeffSharlet
» RE: JeffSharlet
Posted by: JeffSharlet
» RE: What a nut case
Posted by: JeffSharlet
» RE: Worse than Fascism? If not Naziism then Stalinism?
Posted by: JeffSharlet
» Fascism IS a doctrine of empire.
Posted by: citizenjoe
» RE: Fascism IS a doctrine of empire.
Posted by: JeffSharlet
» Indeed, the Romans were imperialists
Posted by: citizenjoe
Comments are closed-
Posted by: citizenjoe on Jun 12, 2008 4:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"And that's an important distinction to make. I think many progressives want to reduce everything bad to fascism. There's more than one kind of bad under the sun. One of the arguments in this book is that these guys aren't fascists; they're ultimately something worse. They're not fascists because they don't explicitly revere violence. Lots of violence occurs through various dimensions, but in fascism, violence is thought to have redemptive."
Of course, you allow that they are authoritarians, hate democracy, want a new world order based on military and corporate power. And of course, all of this requires world conquest such as we see happening in Iraq. This is violence piled on top of violence-- and it is the soul of the fascist program.New fascism pursues these goal under many different ideological guises, even claiming themselves as a sort of new democracy. Mussolini said this himself. I am afraid that Jeff Sharlet does not have the slightest idea of what he is talking about when it comes to fascism. He doesn't get Robert Paxton at all. Here is Paxton: "Hitler and Mussolini , after all, had not tried to be exotic to their fellow citizens. No swastikas in American fascism, but Stars and Stripes and Christian crosses. No fascist salute, but mass recitations of the pledge of allegiance. These symbols contain no whiff of fascism themselves,of course, but an American fascism would transform them into obligatory litmus tests for detecting the internal enemy." And so on. P. 202.
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» No, it isn't.
Posted by: brunowe
» Why do I try to help you?
Posted by: citizenjoe
» You're not...
Posted by: brunowe
» Try to pay attention
Posted by: citizenjoe
» I do, that's why your errors are so obvious
Posted by: brunowe
» We should have a real debate
Posted by: citizenjoe
» I understand your position perfectly
Posted by: brunowe
» You are trying- that is progress, I guess
Posted by: citizenjoe
» You're the one who got it wrong
Posted by: brunowe
» now we get to the heart of it
Posted by: citizenjoe
» RE: now we get to the heart of it
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: now we get to the heart of it
Posted by: citizenjoe
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Posted by: Romans1 on Jun 12, 2008 5:37 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Never heard of them
Posted by: nochicagoboys
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Posted by: scheherezade on Jun 12, 2008 5:46 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Matthew 7:15 -- "Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are savage wolves.
Ezekiel 22:27 "Her princes within her are like wolves tearing the prey, by shedding blood and destroying lives in order to get dishonest gain.
Matthew 24:11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
Matthew 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
Luke 6:26 "Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way.
John 10:12 "He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.
Acts 20:29 "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Revelation 16:13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
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» Thanks for this. I get so many horrible religious forwards from my rightwing family that. . .
Posted by: Beck
» Good luck with your war of words
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Postscript
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Thanks for this. I get so many horrible religious forwards from my rightwing family that. . .
Posted by: scheherezade
» RE: you're exactly right
Posted by: Joni50
» RE: False prophets raking in some coin
Posted by: snideelf
» RE: False prophets raking in some coin,W is mark of the beast
Posted by: whealeydj
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Moonray on Jun 12, 2008 5:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When Obama goes to work on the Tax Code, as he as promised, he should make Job 1 ending the tax break for all religious entities. Enough is enough. Email your congressperson. Better still, show up at his or her door with a picket sign.
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» RE: It's time to end tax exemption for religious groups
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Obama
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: It's time to end tax exemption for religious groups
Posted by: Docent
Comments are closed-
Posted by: magistre on Jun 12, 2008 5:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: This Is Exactly Why
Posted by: desidid
» He Has brought the Third Reich
Posted by: Persephone8
» RE: Prescott Bush?
Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
» Prescott S. Bush, G.H.W. Bush, and G.W. Bush
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Ol' Joe was into many things, but not fascism
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Uh, what about it?
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» What exactly is a 'Fascist'??
Posted by: gellero1
» RE: What exactly is a 'Fascist'??
Posted by: djnoll
» RE: Prescott S. Bush, G.H.W. Bush, and G.W. Bush
Posted by: yirrp
» The Acorn Doesn't Fall So Far From the Tree...
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace
Comments are closed-
Posted by: blather on Jun 12, 2008 5:54 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The Blob
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: The Blob
Posted by: Elmo409
» RE: The Blob, the 1988 remake had even larger religious overtones.
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
Comments are closed-
Posted by: desidid on Jun 12, 2008 6:00 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a Christian I think Jesus had a better understanding of God's Will. And it is there for all to see in the Bible. The acronym that many of us understand to mean don't take the Bible literally, but understand what lies in the heart of it is Basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth. Everything that Jesus preached was about our responsibility, nay our duty, to help and love others. I'm not the best Christian, but I know that much.
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» RE: Jesus Was A Social Anarchist
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Output?
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Output?
Posted by: kevcol
» RE: Output?
Posted by: Docent
» RE: Output? The building of trust and community continues. And actually, Jesus did NOT mean. . .
Posted by: Beck
» Responsibility...
Posted by: yellow
» RE: And Your Responsibility
Posted by: desidid
» RE: And Your Responsibility
Posted by: yellow
» RE: I have news for you: Jesus was a Jew and he was persecuted
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: Ummmm, Maybe cause
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Holy rediculous rhetoric, Batman
Posted by: desidid
» RE: desidid
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Hitler was a catholic swine
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: Hitler was a catholic swine
Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: you are correct...
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: pfeifer999
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Jesus Was A Social Anarchist
Posted by: hms2004
» RE: Jesus Was A Social Anarchist
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
» RE: I hear the same smear on wingnut radio here in Boston
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: Sharing Text From E-mail "Christians" Are Sending Out
Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
» RE: Sharing Text From E-mail "Christians" Are Sending Out
Posted by: badkitty
» Phrases like "globalism" and "New World Order" are dead giveaways that these are clerico-fascists.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Phrases like "globalism" and "New World Order" are dead giveaways that these are clerico-fascists.
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Last Chance on Jun 12, 2008 6:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Spiritgirl on Jun 12, 2008 6:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Jun 12, 2008 7:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
JT
Ultimate Anonymity
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» On the contrary...
Posted by: manatthewindow
» RE: On the contrary...
Posted by: woodford54
» OH, RIGHT..............More TRUTH
Posted by: gellero1
» RE: Hitler?? = Mr. Bush?? HERE'S THE DIFFERENCE
Posted by: gellero1
» RE: Hitler??
Posted by: hms2004
» You must be a right wing troll with your silly adoration of Hitler. And its not very American!!
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Posted by: vegan27 on Jun 12, 2008 7:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some of the facts do not check out. "The Blob" was not a metaphor for communism. The New York Times quoted Jack Harris, the producer of "The Blob", as saying that the idea of the film being a metaphor for the spread of communism was "hogwash." Slate.com quotes the writer of "The Blob", Kate Phillips, saying in 2007: "I wasn't thinking about communism when I wrote it. I was thinking about good and evil."
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» Blob type...
Posted by: Bbear41
» RE: conspiracy theory (or not)?
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Why Is It
Posted by: desidid
» RE: pfeifer999
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh...............I now feel even MORE attracted to your religion.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: conspiracy theory
Posted by: JeffSharlet
» RE: conspiracy theory
Posted by: desidid
» RE: conspiracy theory
Posted by: woodford54
» RE: conspiracy theory
Posted by: JeffSharlet
» RE: conspiracy theory
Posted by: desidid
» RE: conspiracy theory
Posted by: JeffSharlet
» RE: conspiracy theory, cabal is better
Posted by: whealeydj
» RE: conspiracy theory
Posted by: Tombo
» RE: conspiracy theory
Posted by: djnoll
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Jun 12, 2008 7:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's a Christian who turned to other religions and can help you overcome the Christo-Fascists without falling for the war traps:
http://www.stephen-knapp.com
And if you are interested in reframing and going on the offensive, you can still have a look at George Lakoff's site:
http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org
Sure, they may be filled with archive articles only but those articles are still 100% relevant and crucial to progressive success.
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» RE: same ol'
Posted by: Dboy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: JSquercia on Jun 12, 2008 8:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course using their logic we as a Nation are to be CONDEMMED for overthrowing the English CROWN . Wait THAT may explain EVERYTHING (sarcasim)
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Posted by: mamaferryman on Jun 12, 2008 8:26 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And to revier a man who committed so many atrocities is not Christian pity him, teach him, pray for him, but do not revier him.
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» RE: God of HATE???
Posted by: Dboy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Pop on Jun 12, 2008 8:31 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: pop
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Wolf God and his flock.
Posted by: Dboy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Tom Degan on Jun 12, 2008 8:33 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
"The Rant" by Tom Degan
SUGGESTED READING:
Conjectures of a Guilty Bystander
by Tomas Merton
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» RE: Pining For Dorothy Day
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Pining For Dorothy Day
Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: Pining For Dorothy Day
Posted by: hms2004
Comments are closed-
Posted by: schnoggi on Jun 12, 2008 8:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that line about baby-raping is so creepy. it's like he was feeling him out for group entertainment options on the next jungle tour.
this particular strain of the world's most popular heresy has a strong sociopathic flavor, do anything say anything just consume and survive, find and adapt new hosts (mmm, Borg). xtianity is more of a co-opting strategy than it is any actual religion; you find an opportunity, and mutate to fit it. greedy dysfunctional regressive rich people, yes, we can finagle an enzyme/driver/spore to fit that, and now You and Only You are touched by glod. As usual, they are the very thing they say they are crusading against, a great blob subsuming everything in its path.
seriously, a CAT scan. there is something structurally very odd about this mindset. it's like a perpetual motion machine, you put in crap ideology and out comes tons of motivation. and it is a huge loose cannon, with the trigger stuck to ON.
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» What do we do with psychopaths in power?
Posted by: windoe
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Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Jun 12, 2008 9:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, I am STILL waiting to see the following in the article:
"Christian Political Group 'The Family' Openly Reveres Hitler".
I believe I may have picked up something at the checkout stand thinking it was Alternet.
Hmmm, maybe it is.
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» RE: Something very strange~~~~
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Pfeifer999, Are you by Chance a Member of the Opus Dei Society or just an angry Lumpen Proletariat?
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hurricane hugo on Jun 12, 2008 9:06 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
www.youvebeenleftbehind.com
jdfu!
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Posted by: mangell on Jun 12, 2008 9:09 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Then they could wage Holy War on Islam, which has Louis Farrakhan's NOI and a certain Manchurian candidate as a third column in the U.S. The JDL and Opus Dei could be sort of aligned with Blackwater/Family.
This would make a great movie!
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» *spoiler alert!*
Posted by: hurricane hugo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Jun 12, 2008 9:10 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We must remember it's these 'believers' that want to see the 'End Times'. They feel they're so good they'll be swept into heaven on JC's tailwind. What happened to these lost souls?
The New Testiment is full of Jesus' teachings of 'Not making a God of Him' and 'You can do the same as me and greater.' and 'Know that ye are gods.'. Well these folks already made a god-idol out of Jesus so I guess the rest of the really good stuff they overlooked too.
This is what makes them dangerous and should be put on a DHS Terrorist Watch List. They are
Hypocrites,they talk the talk and walk the walk. They are christian in name only and not by deed. One thing for sure,if Jesus was 'God', then there would be no way in hell he would tell us we could do greater than him. So far the only thing we do better than him is KILL PEOPLE IN HIS NAME!!!
Unless you're walking the path of Peace,Compassion and Loving Understanding,you're not walking the path of Christ, you're marching it lock-step with the Anti-Christ. Remember Hitler did'nt hate christians and the then pope Benedict did'nt complain about the burning Jews. Of course
neither did Roosevelt.
Draft Jeffrey7 for Prez '08 P.O.T. Party
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» RE: Aiding the Anti-Christ
Posted by: Dboy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: chiefwanadubie on Jun 12, 2008 9:45 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: we need FREEDOM from RELIGION
Posted by: willymack
» Exactly, willymack, but dont tell those rightwing church boys
Posted by: yale
» Wonderful Idea - DUH!
Posted by: Jbuuty
» In defense of free thinking.
Posted by: yale
» Hey pheif, were ya been hiding?
Posted by: yale
» Ha Ha I remember that
Posted by: yale
» This is the first touching swaggering macho exchange between two rednecks I've ever seen on Alternet
Posted by: yellow
» RE: This is the first touching swaggering macho exchange between two rednecks I've ever seen on Alternet
Posted by: yale
» RE: This is the first touching swaggering macho exchange between two rednecks I've ever seen on Alternet
Posted by: yellow
» RE: This is the first touching swaggering macho exchange between two rednecks I've ever seen on Alternet
Posted by: yale
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jsknow on Jun 12, 2008 11:08 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The founding fathers of this nation were by vast majority Christian. You can find references to Christianity etched in stone all over our most famous government buildings and monuments. They put the phrase “separation of Church and state” in the constitution because they didn’t want misinterpretations of the Bible to govern us and they believed in the right of the people to have freedom of religion not because they were against the Bible or what the Bible says.
One of the great warnings in the Bible tells us not to follow popular notions blindly. The founding fathers trusted God and God says plainly that He will reveal himself to those that diligently seek him. READ THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELF.
A great example of people following blindly is this country’s war on drugs. It sounds good. It promises to protect individuals and society from the dangers of drugs. In reality the drug war does way more harm than the drugs and there are much better ways to deal with drugs and addictions but honest drug education and medical treatment for those with addictions would prevent crooks and crooked politicians from lining their pockets. If you’d like to get some honest insight on the drug war and its political propaganda. Visit this website but you’re going to have to READ IT FOR YOURSELF TOO:
If you're using Internet Explorer web browser use this link: http://jsknow.angelfire.com/home
If you're using any other web browser use this link: http://jsknow.angelfire.com/index.html
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» RE: Fundamentals of the Bible, Christianity and politics
Posted by: Dboy
» Christianity, as all religions, is derivative crap. Get a life.
Posted by: thekidde
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Posted by: billwald on Jun 12, 2008 11:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: BlueGorilla on Jun 12, 2008 11:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In this case a neo-facist indicates that God has directed him to a "top people first"religious path..and also that God has let him know that unions are the devil's organisations (actually I always had a feeling that Jimmy Hoffa was slaughtering cockrels to Beelzebub).
Groups from Ayran supremacists to Christian Communists can find evidence from either the Bible,and/or their psychotic visions,to support their point of view.
Plus religious interpretation often reflects the society in which it is being (re)interpreted.Christianity in South and Central America has often been of a more left wing liberationist type,than the "God hates the poor,the gay ,and decency or reason"type,manufactured on the US right.
The Bible is vast,and whether taken literally or metaphorically,aspects can be read as supporting most political viewpoints.
If any aspect doesn't support your theory,then twist it ...ie the conservative literalists as pointed out above,claim that the rich man/eye of the needle passage is the only metaphor in a sea of literalism..You could also ignore what doesn't suit you,like Bush/B-Liar et al do when it comes to turning the other cheek,or not bearing false witness re wmds.
Now history,as we know is full of people who claim that God has instructed them,Dubya,B-liar,David Koreshi,Joan Of Arc,Saint Paul etc etc.In all likelihood they should have taken their medication,and got some psycho-therapy ,which might have helped their psychosis..and stopped the auditory-or in this guys case-visual hallucinations.
Personally I beleive that there is much that is good and progressive in the Bible,from Jesus defence of prostitutes,to social and racial equality, to anti-Mammon statements,but there are also potential justifications for slavery,racial superiority and particularly in the Torah,a vengeance based justice.
See its so easy to take the bits you like,and ignore the other bits.I'm not a Christian,but I think that the thinker who came closest to Jesus's own agenda was Karl Marx..but I may be unconsciously ignoring a few less egalitarian Christ statements to make my own case.
If im to be honest its all or nothing ,really,but no Christian could possibly carry the weight of all those thousands of contradictions.
We've just got to watch out for the formula, whereby a partial adoption of Christianity (ie the bits that suit a particular case),become's a tool of oppression.In America,this is a weapon used overwhelmingly, by the far right, neo-cons.
It seems that in an increasingly authoritarian ,or semi-theocratic state like the USA ,then a bit of backing from the Bible,or a teatime visit from God is a must,to gain your requisite audience of fools.Or even to become President,or a leading politician.
Secularists and Christians of genuine faith (as opposed to those with convenient hatreds ),hold your nerve,because the "Christian"right is still in the ascent.However in a class ridden society like America, with growing disenchantment at poverty,growing anger at being neo-conned into going to war,declining living standards etc,the cracks in their amateurishly composed religious-political ideology will get wider and wider.
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Posted by: Lauren on Jun 12, 2008 12:05 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you for sharing. It must be great to have a magic book that gives you so much power over other people. So now that I know their magic spell, it cold lose it's punch.
I suppose it literally means MY powers are then ALSO ordained by god, hmm?
I bet that is a spot they didn't want to find themselves in, huh?
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» RE: omans:13: "The Powers that Be are Ordained of God"
Posted by: Dboy
» "Amen" - ignorance is certainly bliss when it come to religion. It seems all "religious"
Posted by: thekidde
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Posted by: master09 on Jun 12, 2008 1:35 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: MOSES
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: MOSES
Posted by: Docent
» No one, anywhere, has been sent by "god" to do anything. Politicians
Posted by: thekidde
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Posted by: chiefwanadubie on Jun 12, 2008 1:38 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: rtmyth on Jun 12, 2008 2:37 PM
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» Apparently, religious opinions run the length of the political spectrum
Posted by: nochicagoboys
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Posted by: PaulK on Jun 12, 2008 2:57 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My father is an old guy who goes fishing now, but back in the day he was heavily into Christianity, stockpiling dozens of guns for the coming Race War, and Fascist economic dogma. I probably took my life in my hands visiting him.
Fascist economics is based on someone's idea that all wealth comes from the soil, e.g. fasces of wheat spring from the soil. Technically this might be true, everything in our houses did come from the ground, but this insight is kind of useless as an economic theory. What useful thing does the theory predict? Does such a theory in any way help me flip burgers? Also, Bill Gates made a huge pile of wealth and he didn't use very much soil or oil to make his CDs. Anyways, my father really had great faith in this economic theory, and he bought the inevitable, "and we may have to kill people for this stupid theory".
Stalinism is mostly the same tag line, "we have to kill people", added to another set of economic theories. The credibility of the theories, or lack thereof, should not be confused with the tag line, "and we have to kill people."
For that matter, Christianity was all about the nonviolent pacifist response of the Jewish people to tyrannical Roman military rule. So the Christian leaders added a tag line: "As He died to make men holy, let us die (actually, let's kill people) to make men free."
The current crop of Christian power-loving ding dongs are just one in a long line of such groups. The previous super-secret Christian group, the Ku Klux Klan, worked from within vast numbers of American churches in the 1920s.
Please strip these brainless Evangelicals away from the ideas of Christianity, from anticommunism, and even from obscure Fascist economic theories if you're really into that sort of thing. Look at the theories fresh -- they're just someone's ideas. Don't paint anyone's political, religious, economic or other ideology with what the power-grubbers say in their name.
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Posted by: securacom-wtc on Jun 12, 2008 4:10 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany. http://www.infowars.com
/print/Bush/grandfather_helped_nazi.htm
Free Documentary on www.video.google.com 'One Nation Under Siege'(1.4hrs). Through the research and personal testimony of over a dozen internationally distinguished authors, journalists, doctors, and military experts (Major General Albert Stubblebine) you will understand the massive and ceaseless control projected onto an unsuspecting populace by a government that may have finally crossed the line from a representative republic to a fascist empire. From the USA PATRIOT Act and the blatant disregard for the Bill of Rights to the outright tracking of every human being on the planet earth, you will be stunned by what U.S. government documents describe for the future of America. http://www.undersiegemovie.com/
USA’s Constitution and currency are being destroyed from within. How? Videos free on www.video.google.com 1) America: Freedom to Fascism, 2 hrs; 2)911 Justice, 18min; 3) The Clinton Chronicles, 1.7 hrs; 4) Endgame: Blueprint for Global Enslavement, 2 hrs, 5) Terrorstorm: A History of False Flag Terror, 2 hrs 6) 911 Mysteries, 2 hrs; 7)The Creature from Jekyll Island, 1hr; 8)Orwell Rolls in His Grave, 2hrs; 9) The War on Democracy, 1.5 hrs; 10) The Energy Non-Crisis, 1 hr; 11)Iraq for Sale 1.2 hr; 12) Zeitgeist, 2 hrs; 13)Ring of Power, 2.5 hrs; 14)Bush link to JFK, 1.5 hrs; 15) The Century of the Self, 4 hrs; 16) Loose Change (2nd ed & Final cut) 2hrs each; 17)John Pilger: The New Rulers of the World; 18) The Money Masters: How International Bankers Gained Control of America, 3.5 hrs 19) Barack Obama CFR info 20) Global Warming or Global Governance 21) The Great Global Warming Swindle 22) Mercury, Autism and The Global Vaccine Agenda 23) The CIA, Mind Control and Satanism 24)George Hunt: UN UNCED Earth Summit 1992 (Population Reduction) 25) End of NAtions - EU Takeover 26) Washington, You're Fired 27) Blackwater: America's Private Army 28) Esoteric Agenda 29) Fiat Empire: Why the Federal Reserve Violates the U.S. COnstitution 30) The Revolution Will not be Televised [USA overthrow of Hugo Chavez] 31) One Nation Under Siege 32)Breaking The Silence - Truth and Lies in the War on Terror, by John Pilger(and all his documentaries) 33)Beyond Treason 1.5hrs
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» Read: Democracy Inc.:Managed democracy and ...
Posted by: davidg
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Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Jun 12, 2008 4:28 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is almost no abomination or perversion that Bush has not accomplished to enhance or create with Him and Rove running our country..
Of course we have to suffer all this because "Impeachment is off the table...!"
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Posted by: bcgirl125 on Jun 12, 2008 5:35 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance143.html
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Posted by: securacom-wtc on Jun 12, 2008 5:58 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2. The IMF is an agency of the UN
3. The U.S. Has not had a Treasury since 1921.
4. The U.S. Treasury is now the IMF.
5. The Attorney General of the U.S. is not employed by the U.S. But is an Agent of INTERPOL which is head quartered in Lyons, France
6. The United States does not have any employees.
7. Social Security Numbers are issued by the UN through the IMF.
8. There are no Judicial courts in America and there has not been since 1789. Judges do not enforce Statutes and Codes. Executive Administrators enforce Statutes and Codes.
9. There have not been any Judges in America since 1789. There have just been Administrators.
10. According to the GATT you must have a Social Security number.
11. You are an "Institutional Unit" in which your body and labor are pledged to the UN through the IMF
12. We have One World Government, One World Law and a One World Monetary System
13. Your Social Security number is your slave number. Just about everyone in the World has a Social Security number from the UN through the IMF.
14. The UN is a One World
15. No one on this planet has ever been free. This planet is a Slave Colony. There has always been One World Government. It is just that now it is much better organized and has changed its name as of 1945 to the United Nations. Super Government.
16. New York City is defined in the Federal Regulations as the United Nations. Rudolph Gulliani stated on C-Span that "New York City was the capital of the World" and he was correct.
17. Social Security is not insurance or a contract, nor is there a Trust Fund.
18. Your Social Security check comes directly from the IMF, which is an Agency of the UN
19. You own no property, slaves can't own property. Read the Deed to the property that you think is yours. You are listed as a Tenant.
20. The most powerful court in America is not the United States Supreme Court but, the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania.(who is running the new home Defense program but the Gov from Penns.?
To verify the facts in the preceding paragraphs see (5 U.S.C. 903, 12 U.S.C. 95, 18 U.S.C.A. 914, 22 U.S.C. 263, 285, 286, 287, 288. Public Law 89-719, Public Law 94-564, Public Law 101-167, Public Law 91-151 Public Law 103-465, House Report 103-826 T.D.O 150-10, T.D.O. 92, 41 Stat. Chap 214 pg. 654, Emergency Banking Act 48 Stat. 1, Articles of Agreement 60 Stat. 1440, 20 CFR chapter 111, subpart B 422.103 (b) (2) (2), United Nations Secretariat Revised System of National Accounting, Diversified Metal Products v. IRS et al. CV-93-405E-EJE U.S.D.C.D.I., Cromelin v. United States, 177 F.2d 275, 277 Tomalewski v. United States, 493 F.Supp 673, 675 Foster v. Bork, 425 F.Supp 1318, 1319-20 FRC v. GE 281 U.S. 464, Keller v. PE 261 U.S. 428, United States v. LePatourel, 571 F2d 405, 410, Respublica v. Sweers 1 Dallas 43, INTERPOL Constitution Art. 30, Executive Order 10422, Papal Bulls of 1455 and 1493. 42 Pa.C.S.A. 502. General Agreement on Trade and Tariffs.
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Posted by: Timberbee on Jun 12, 2008 6:24 PM
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Posted by: desidid on Jun 12, 2008 6:27 PM
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Posted by: willymack on Jun 12, 2008 6:42 PM
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Posted by: pbutler on Jun 12, 2008 7:45 PM
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Like most of God's American emissaries, he spends much of his time imploring believers for money.
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Posted by: Jbuuty on Jun 13, 2008 12:24 AM
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Lindsay Beyerstein: Explicit sexual confession in small groups is a big deal in the Family, right?
Jeff Sharlet: Yes. I started paying attention when I visited Westmont College, a major recruiting base for the Family. Some of the professors are very concerned about the focus on small group sex confessions: Parents are spending $80,000 to send their kids to college, and they go off to become a driver for Doug Coe. Then they tell their parents that they sat in a circle and talked about masturbation. Of course, they don't do that sort of thing at the weekly prayer meeting in the Senate.
Sam Brownback told me, there are two functions of sexual confession: You confess, and they help you. You say, "My girlfriend and I almost held hands the other day." And they say "Don't do it, brother!" It's also a way of creating a bond in the group: If I have had gay thoughts and I tell the group, then they have something on me. And if you say you've cheated on your wife, they have something on you.
Lindsay Beyerstein: Kind of a mutually assured destruction?
Jeff Sharlet: Yeah.
I've read other articles by Sharlet (in Harper's and Mother Jones) and while I like much of what he says, he seems to often make some rather broad assumptions without evidence, at least the evidence isn't produced in the articles. I think religious writers like Sharlet need to become more theologically aware of the groups they are studying. The purely sociological and journalistic approach misses a lot because the writer interprets certain actions and certain statements through his/her own 'frames'.
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» RE: Misrepresentation??
Posted by: JeffSharlet
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Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Jun 13, 2008 1:29 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But the catch is that there is NOT one speck of evidence for any god of any kind. And if you did your homework, there is NOT one speck of evidence for the miracle producing Jesus, let alone his father.
I would ask you why we need holy books of any kind to run our lives anyway? Or more importantly to run the lives of OTHERS? (I don't give a rats a$$ what you do to run your own pathetic lives.)
Is it because, for example, all the works of science cannot equal the wisdom of nomadic, cave-dwelling, sheep-sacrificing primitives who thought every animal species in the world lived within walking distance of Noah's house?
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» RE: As if we needed more evidence that...
Posted by: AppleMommie AZ
» The posterior of rodents
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: bitsfick on Jun 13, 2008 3:36 AM
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Posted by: philipcfromnyc on Jun 13, 2008 5:13 AM
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Posted by: trouble on Jun 13, 2008 10:34 AM
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Posted by: j downs on Jun 13, 2008 11:17 AM
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» RE: Jesus could not bite anyone in the ass...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
» RE: Jesus could not bite anyone in the ass...(Evidence...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
» RE: Jesus could not bite anyone in the ass...(Evidence...still need it...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
» RE: Continued...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
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Posted by: kathaksung on Jun 13, 2008 5:01 PM
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He has predicted that God tell him Bush would win the election. Is this God that secret group?
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Posted by: tngreen on Jun 13, 2008 8:20 PM
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Posted by: Jangeen@netzero.net on Jun 14, 2008 3:34 AM
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» RE: Simply put...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
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Posted by: Philip Newton on Jun 16, 2008 4:01 PM
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Grade: A
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Posted by: J_Mo on Jun 17, 2008 7:48 AM
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:P
~J-Mo (not a Satanist)
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Posted by: corgan1003 on Jun 17, 2008 1:08 PM
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Posted by: whealeydj on Jun 18, 2008 11:18 PM
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Posted by: whealeydj on Jun 18, 2008 11:33 PM
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Posted by: thekidde on Jun 19, 2008 7:10 AM
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Posted by: bensobin on Jun 19, 2008 3:22 PM
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If JC is observing all of this, and the other horrors of our day, he must be
wondering if it is all a farce.
Where would he cast DUBYA and the rest of that CABAL ?
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Posted by: pfeifer's day off on Jun 21, 2008 9:01 AM
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Your mention of Cromwell is a red herring (a side issue to distract), as well as a logical fallacy (an incorrect conclusion). Will you be returning to the original issue: the Spanish Inquisition? The Spanish Inquisition was brought to Mexico against Jews, in particular (African Americans, Mexican Indians and Mexicans of mixed races were also persecuted by the Inquisition) in the 16th century C.E. The Roman church would like us to think the Inquisition ended in Mexico in 1821 C.E., but the Inquisition became the Congregation of the Holy Office (circa 1542 C.E.) then Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (circa C.E.). The current pope, Benedict, was head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (the Inquisition) until he became pope.
Actually, Galileo (heliocentrism; convicted but recanted to avoid death penalty) was NOT “the only scientist with whom the Church had any friction”. Copernicus’s book on heliocentrism was put on the Inquisition’s Index of Banned Books, for example. Giordano Bruno (heliocentrism and universalism of physical/natural laws) was burned at the stake by the Roman church. One exception belies “only”. Were cathedral solar observatories independent of the Roman church, at liberty to pursue studies in heliocentrism? No. I thought not. More likely the Roman church tolerated cathedral solar observatories only to pursue lunar theology, to maintain its calendar of those central pagan holidays (Easter—Goddess of Spring and Xmas—birth of God Mithras)? Interestingly, the prophet Jeremiah objected to cutting down a tree out of the forest, decorating the tree with silver and gold, and securing the tree in stationary fashion (Jeremiah 10:2-4). Why do xns persist in this “heathen” practice of xmas trees do you think? What “defensive measure” was issued to murder Jews in France and Germany as the Crusaders marched across Europe before they arrived in Byzantium? Robert of Aguiliers, Albert of Aix, and Radulph of Caen reported that they cannibalized (ate) Muslim children and adults at Maarat (in modern Syria). Historians of those Later Crusades reported that indeed the Crusaders committed fraticide against Orthodox xns and genocide against Jews and Muslims in the Byzantium and its environs. The Crusades lasted considerably longer than 300 years (? To ? C.E.) You do not want to lump all of the Crusades together as evil, much as Muslims do not want to lump all Muslims together as evil, eh?
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» Pfieffer999 and the Edict of the Expulsion of the Jews (Section II)
Posted by: pfeifer's day off
» Pfeifer999, (a) Jesus and Gravity (Section III)
Posted by: pfeifer's day off
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Posted by: andabottleof_rum on Jun 12, 2008 12:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's take the literal interpretation, and if a person believes in the Bible and in Biblical literalism, then the literal interpretation must be taken very seriously, since it is the word of the infinite God, compared to which all else is for all intents and purposes nothing. A camel cannot pass through the eye of a needle. It is impossible. Therefore a rich man cannot enter heaven. It is impossible.
This is the literal interpretation of what the Bible reports Jesus to have said. Therefore if a person is a Biblical literalist Christian, then this interpretation must be a holy truth; it must be absolute, perfect, the word and will of the divine.
Because, in mainline Christian theology, the only alternative to heaven in the afterlife is hell, where the flames burn you but do not consume you forever, the proper literal interpretation should be read to say that all rich men shall burn forever in hell when they die.
Any Christian who doesn't believe rich men are going to hell is not a literalist.
Personally, I'm an atheist with Catholic sympathies, having been raised Catholic, so I don't believe rich people are going to hell. I believe death is simply oblivion, like before we were born (or conceived - or before our embryonic brains developed to the point where we could be aware of anything).
I make the argument above because it should seem obvious to any Christian who prides himself or herself on holding a literal interpretation of the Bible, thereby enhancing that person's sense of purity, that wealth is a sure passport into hell, according to the sources of the person's spiritual views. To a Biblical literalist, like the evangelicals and fundamentalists, allying oneself with the wealthy, or admiring the wealthy, should seem like an abomination. Wealthy people should look like impure filth in the eyes of fundamentalists.
I write this as a reminder for the fundamentalist of what they are supposed to believe as regards wealth.
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» Exactly!
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: xactly!
Posted by: Cybershaman
» Camels and Ropes
Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: Christian fundamentalists share common traits with the so-called 'strict-constructionist'
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: Christian fundamentalist who shun the poor are the greatest hypocrites.
Posted by: TagsNOLA
» RE: Christian fundamentalist who shun the poor are the greatest hypocrites.
Posted by: Christisvictor
» gobbledegoop
Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: gobbledegoop
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: do YOU want to be held accountable....
Posted by: yellow
» Their Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus....
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: Their Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus....
Posted by: dmmaze6
» Your theology is incorrect
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: ankhet on Jun 12, 2008 1:39 AM
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Posted by: Purple Girl on Jun 12, 2008 3:58 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Peter and Paul despised women and resented Mary Magdelene for her closer Proximity to Jesus- thus the made her a Whore, then went about destroying any and all who may have even thought to revere her.
By using their religious dogma they helped the Oppressive Roman empire, that was finally beginning to fail, to conquer others not Only through might- but not a 'Holy Ordained' Mandate.
Now overlay that technique with that of the Neo cons over the last 40 yrs.Hillary's Highjacking of the Women's movement is the most currrent seige and target of such ideology.By using the 'Sexism 'Card she effectively told the World - women are vindictive and feel they are 'Due' and that they Require all Bars be lowered to achieve any task set before them .Bills' 'The Boys are Not Playing Nice' comment was Proof, in their view Women must be handled with Kit gloves. She did not play a different game- but only wanted the Rules changed to accomadate Her.
they needed an infiltrator to begin to undermine the real efforts of Women. Make them look as though they are vindictive, demanding and indignant about being treated like a man.I have no doubt through this subversive process Hillary would have changed a Woman's Right to choose to the right to have our children,by turning the conversation to the idea we are Being forced to Work outside the Home.
Hillary is no doubt a 'Feminist' but she is No Libber.And Her intentions and Motivations have become very clear throughout her Senate and Campaign time.Her 'Obliterate Iran' with Nukes told me she was a Follower of the Hagee Armegeddon Theology.She made my skin crawl with gutteral Apprehension regarding her True Beliefs. And I voted for Bill 2x's and WAS an Avid Defender of Both. Once I was Blind But Now I See.
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» RE: pfeifer999
Posted by: gradioc
» Male dominated church
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Male dominated church
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: pfeifer999
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
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Posted by: Urstrly on Jun 12, 2008 4:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I worked on Capitol Hill, I went to a Moral Rearmament concert. The singers were freshly scrubbed with beauty contest smiles, and they were integrated racially, which was pretty unusual in conservative circles in those days. I was approached by a woman from my Baptist church about joining up. She stressed that they were looking for attractive young people, but something about it gave me the creeps, and I asked her not to contact me again.
Not until I read this on Alternet the first time it ran did I fully understand that the prayer breakfasts had any connection to Moral Rearmament; I suspect most Washingtonians don't.I left the Baptist church and conservative politics behind as I matured, so I have hope that articles like this will wake up young people.
I disagree with Shartlet on one point: how can we say these people don't glorify violence as cleansing? How do you think we got into this war in Iraq, and what about those "Christians" who can't wait for Armageddon?
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» exactly right
Posted by: citizenjoe
» RE: It's Not Overt
Posted by: buberfan
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Posted by: Last Chance on Jun 12, 2008 4:43 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» You Evidently Live in the 13th century
Posted by: yellow
» The Dalen Book is published by Regnery which means it has a strong right wing bias.
Posted by: yellow
» The 1933 Concordat is sufficient indictment of The Vatican which never really helped European Jews
Posted by: yellow
» RE: please be more thorough
Posted by: yellow
» Dalen is a liar. Your assertion that Jewish leaders requested the Pope's silence is outrageous!!
Posted by: yellow
» Pfeifer999, you are an anti-semitic liar and so are the openly racist sources you use.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Pfeifer999, you are an anti-semitic liar and so are the openly racist sources you use.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Alternet has rules against personal attacks
Posted by: yellow
» RE: sure, THIS post you don't want to come off as snarky. You fulfill that urge elsewhere.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: sure, I go back in forth in my phone booth
Posted by: poetac
» RE: You Evidently Live in the 13th century
Posted by: Jbuuty
» Your point is well taken on both Religion and Stalin.
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: solrev on Jun 12, 2008 4:48 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Many of those who believe in Black Helicopters are self-professed Christians as well.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh............
Posted by: JeffSharlet
» RE: JeffSharlet
Posted by: JeffSharlet
» RE: What a nut case
Posted by: JeffSharlet
» RE: Worse than Fascism? If not Naziism then Stalinism?
Posted by: JeffSharlet
» Fascism IS a doctrine of empire.
Posted by: citizenjoe
» RE: Fascism IS a doctrine of empire.
Posted by: JeffSharlet
» Indeed, the Romans were imperialists
Posted by: citizenjoe
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Posted by: citizenjoe on Jun 12, 2008 4:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"And that's an important distinction to make. I think many progressives want to reduce everything bad to fascism. There's more than one kind of bad under the sun. One of the arguments in this book is that these guys aren't fascists; they're ultimately something worse. They're not fascists because they don't explicitly revere violence. Lots of violence occurs through various dimensions, but in fascism, violence is thought to have redemptive."
Of course, you allow that they are authoritarians, hate democracy, want a new world order based on military and corporate power. And of course, all of this requires world conquest such as we see happening in Iraq. This is violence piled on top of violence-- and it is the soul of the fascist program.New fascism pursues these goal under many different ideological guises, even claiming themselves as a sort of new democracy. Mussolini said this himself. I am afraid that Jeff Sharlet does not have the slightest idea of what he is talking about when it comes to fascism. He doesn't get Robert Paxton at all. Here is Paxton: "Hitler and Mussolini , after all, had not tried to be exotic to their fellow citizens. No swastikas in American fascism, but Stars and Stripes and Christian crosses. No fascist salute, but mass recitations of the pledge of allegiance. These symbols contain no whiff of fascism themselves,of course, but an American fascism would transform them into obligatory litmus tests for detecting the internal enemy." And so on. P. 202.
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» No, it isn't.
Posted by: brunowe
» Why do I try to help you?
Posted by: citizenjoe
» You're not...
Posted by: brunowe
» Try to pay attention
Posted by: citizenjoe
» I do, that's why your errors are so obvious
Posted by: brunowe
» We should have a real debate
Posted by: citizenjoe
» I understand your position perfectly
Posted by: brunowe
» You are trying- that is progress, I guess
Posted by: citizenjoe
» You're the one who got it wrong
Posted by: brunowe
» now we get to the heart of it
Posted by: citizenjoe
» RE: now we get to the heart of it
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: now we get to the heart of it
Posted by: citizenjoe
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Posted by: Romans1 on Jun 12, 2008 5:37 AM
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» RE: Never heard of them
Posted by: nochicagoboys
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Posted by: scheherezade on Jun 12, 2008 5:46 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Matthew 7:15 -- "Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are savage wolves.
Ezekiel 22:27 "Her princes within her are like wolves tearing the prey, by shedding blood and destroying lives in order to get dishonest gain.
Matthew 24:11 "Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
Matthew 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Mark 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
Luke 6:26 "Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way.
John 10:12 "He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.
Acts 20:29 "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
Revelation 16:13 And I saw coming out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits like frogs;
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
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» Thanks for this. I get so many horrible religious forwards from my rightwing family that. . .
Posted by: Beck
» Good luck with your war of words
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Postscript
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Thanks for this. I get so many horrible religious forwards from my rightwing family that. . .
Posted by: scheherezade
» RE: you're exactly right
Posted by: Joni50
» RE: False prophets raking in some coin
Posted by: snideelf
» RE: False prophets raking in some coin,W is mark of the beast
Posted by: whealeydj
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Posted by: Moonray on Jun 12, 2008 5:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When Obama goes to work on the Tax Code, as he as promised, he should make Job 1 ending the tax break for all religious entities. Enough is enough. Email your congressperson. Better still, show up at his or her door with a picket sign.
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» RE: It's time to end tax exemption for religious groups
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Obama
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: It's time to end tax exemption for religious groups
Posted by: Docent
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Posted by: magistre on Jun 12, 2008 5:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: This Is Exactly Why
Posted by: desidid
» He Has brought the Third Reich
Posted by: Persephone8
» RE: Prescott Bush?
Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
» Prescott S. Bush, G.H.W. Bush, and G.W. Bush
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Ol' Joe was into many things, but not fascism
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Uh, what about it?
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» What exactly is a 'Fascist'??
Posted by: gellero1
» RE: What exactly is a 'Fascist'??
Posted by: djnoll
» RE: Prescott S. Bush, G.H.W. Bush, and G.W. Bush
Posted by: yirrp
» The Acorn Doesn't Fall So Far From the Tree...
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace
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Posted by: blather on Jun 12, 2008 5:54 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The Blob
Posted by: JSquercia
» RE: The Blob
Posted by: Elmo409
» RE: The Blob, the 1988 remake had even larger religious overtones.
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
Comments are closed-
Posted by: desidid on Jun 12, 2008 6:00 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a Christian I think Jesus had a better understanding of God's Will. And it is there for all to see in the Bible. The acronym that many of us understand to mean don't take the Bible literally, but understand what lies in the heart of it is Basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth. Everything that Jesus preached was about our responsibility, nay our duty, to help and love others. I'm not the best Christian, but I know that much.
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» RE: Jesus Was A Social Anarchist
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Output?
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Output?
Posted by: kevcol
» RE: Output?
Posted by: Docent
» RE: Output? The building of trust and community continues. And actually, Jesus did NOT mean. . .
Posted by: Beck
» Responsibility...
Posted by: yellow
» RE: And Your Responsibility
Posted by: desidid
» RE: And Your Responsibility
Posted by: yellow
» RE: I have news for you: Jesus was a Jew and he was persecuted
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: Ummmm, Maybe cause
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Holy rediculous rhetoric, Batman
Posted by: desidid
» RE: desidid
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Hitler was a catholic swine
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: Hitler was a catholic swine
Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: you are correct...
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: pfeifer999
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Jesus Was A Social Anarchist
Posted by: hms2004
» RE: Jesus Was A Social Anarchist
Posted by: desidid
Comments are closed-
» RE: I hear the same smear on wingnut radio here in Boston
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: Sharing Text From E-mail "Christians" Are Sending Out
Posted by: Dr. P. Mooney
» RE: Sharing Text From E-mail "Christians" Are Sending Out
Posted by: badkitty
» Phrases like "globalism" and "New World Order" are dead giveaways that these are clerico-fascists.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Phrases like "globalism" and "New World Order" are dead giveaways that these are clerico-fascists.
Posted by: desidid
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Posted by: Last Chance on Jun 12, 2008 6:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Spiritgirl on Jun 12, 2008 6:39 AM
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Posted by: GreyFoxThree on Jun 12, 2008 7:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
JT
Ultimate Anonymity
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» On the contrary...
Posted by: manatthewindow
» RE: On the contrary...
Posted by: woodford54
» OH, RIGHT..............More TRUTH
Posted by: gellero1
» RE: Hitler?? = Mr. Bush?? HERE'S THE DIFFERENCE
Posted by: gellero1
» RE: Hitler??
Posted by: hms2004
» You must be a right wing troll with your silly adoration of Hitler. And its not very American!!
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: vegan27 on Jun 12, 2008 7:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some of the facts do not check out. "The Blob" was not a metaphor for communism. The New York Times quoted Jack Harris, the producer of "The Blob", as saying that the idea of the film being a metaphor for the spread of communism was "hogwash." Slate.com quotes the writer of "The Blob", Kate Phillips, saying in 2007: "I wasn't thinking about communism when I wrote it. I was thinking about good and evil."
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» Blob type...
Posted by: Bbear41
» RE: conspiracy theory (or not)?
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Why Is It
Posted by: desidid
» RE: pfeifer999
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh...............I now feel even MORE attracted to your religion.
Posted by: Beck
» RE: conspiracy theory
Posted by: JeffSharlet
» RE: conspiracy theory
Posted by: desidid
» RE: conspiracy theory
Posted by: woodford54
» RE: conspiracy theory
Posted by: JeffSharlet
» RE: conspiracy theory
Posted by: desidid
» RE: conspiracy theory
Posted by: JeffSharlet
» RE: conspiracy theory, cabal is better
Posted by: whealeydj
» RE: conspiracy theory
Posted by: Tombo
» RE: conspiracy theory
Posted by: djnoll
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Jun 12, 2008 7:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's a Christian who turned to other religions and can help you overcome the Christo-Fascists without falling for the war traps:
http://www.stephen-knapp.com
And if you are interested in reframing and going on the offensive, you can still have a look at George Lakoff's site:
http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org
Sure, they may be filled with archive articles only but those articles are still 100% relevant and crucial to progressive success.
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» RE: same ol'
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: JSquercia on Jun 12, 2008 8:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course using their logic we as a Nation are to be CONDEMMED for overthrowing the English CROWN . Wait THAT may explain EVERYTHING (sarcasim)
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Posted by: mamaferryman on Jun 12, 2008 8:26 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And to revier a man who committed so many atrocities is not Christian pity him, teach him, pray for him, but do not revier him.
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» RE: God of HATE???
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: Pop on Jun 12, 2008 8:31 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: pop
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Wolf God and his flock.
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: Tom Degan on Jun 12, 2008 8:33 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
"The Rant" by Tom Degan
SUGGESTED READING:
Conjectures of a Guilty Bystander
by Tomas Merton
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» RE: Pining For Dorothy Day
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Pining For Dorothy Day
Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: Pining For Dorothy Day
Posted by: hms2004
Comments are closed-
Posted by: schnoggi on Jun 12, 2008 8:58 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that line about baby-raping is so creepy. it's like he was feeling him out for group entertainment options on the next jungle tour.
this particular strain of the world's most popular heresy has a strong sociopathic flavor, do anything say anything just consume and survive, find and adapt new hosts (mmm, Borg). xtianity is more of a co-opting strategy than it is any actual religion; you find an opportunity, and mutate to fit it. greedy dysfunctional regressive rich people, yes, we can finagle an enzyme/driver/spore to fit that, and now You and Only You are touched by glod. As usual, they are the very thing they say they are crusading against, a great blob subsuming everything in its path.
seriously, a CAT scan. there is something structurally very odd about this mindset. it's like a perpetual motion machine, you put in crap ideology and out comes tons of motivation. and it is a huge loose cannon, with the trigger stuck to ON.
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» What do we do with psychopaths in power?
Posted by: windoe
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Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Jun 12, 2008 9:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, I am STILL waiting to see the following in the article:
"Christian Political Group 'The Family' Openly Reveres Hitler".
I believe I may have picked up something at the checkout stand thinking it was Alternet.
Hmmm, maybe it is.
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» RE: Something very strange~~~~
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Pfeifer999, Are you by Chance a Member of the Opus Dei Society or just an angry Lumpen Proletariat?
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: hurricane hugo on Jun 12, 2008 9:06 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
www.youvebeenleftbehind.com
jdfu!
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Posted by: mangell on Jun 12, 2008 9:09 AM
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Then they could wage Holy War on Islam, which has Louis Farrakhan's NOI and a certain Manchurian candidate as a third column in the U.S. The JDL and Opus Dei could be sort of aligned with Blackwater/Family.
This would make a great movie!
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» *spoiler alert!*
Posted by: hurricane hugo
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on Jun 12, 2008 9:10 AM
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We must remember it's these 'believers' that want to see the 'End Times'. They feel they're so good they'll be swept into heaven on JC's tailwind. What happened to these lost souls?
The New Testiment is full of Jesus' teachings of 'Not making a God of Him' and 'You can do the same as me and greater.' and 'Know that ye are gods.'. Well these folks already made a god-idol out of Jesus so I guess the rest of the really good stuff they overlooked too.
This is what makes them dangerous and should be put on a DHS Terrorist Watch List. They are
Hypocrites,they talk the talk and walk the walk. They are christian in name only and not by deed. One thing for sure,if Jesus was 'God', then there would be no way in hell he would tell us we could do greater than him. So far the only thing we do better than him is KILL PEOPLE IN HIS NAME!!!
Unless you're walking the path of Peace,Compassion and Loving Understanding,you're not walking the path of Christ, you're marching it lock-step with the Anti-Christ. Remember Hitler did'nt hate christians and the then pope Benedict did'nt complain about the burning Jews. Of course
neither did Roosevelt.
Draft Jeffrey7 for Prez '08 P.O.T. Party
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» RE: Aiding the Anti-Christ
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: chiefwanadubie on Jun 12, 2008 9:45 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: we need FREEDOM from RELIGION
Posted by: willymack
» Exactly, willymack, but dont tell those rightwing church boys
Posted by: yale
» Wonderful Idea - DUH!
Posted by: Jbuuty
» In defense of free thinking.
Posted by: yale
» Hey pheif, were ya been hiding?
Posted by: yale
» Ha Ha I remember that
Posted by: yale
» This is the first touching swaggering macho exchange between two rednecks I've ever seen on Alternet
Posted by: yellow
» RE: This is the first touching swaggering macho exchange between two rednecks I've ever seen on Alternet
Posted by: yale
» RE: This is the first touching swaggering macho exchange between two rednecks I've ever seen on Alternet
Posted by: yellow
» RE: This is the first touching swaggering macho exchange between two rednecks I've ever seen on Alternet
Posted by: yale
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Posted by: jsknow on Jun 12, 2008 11:08 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The founding fathers of this nation were by vast majority Christian. You can find references to Christianity etched in stone all over our most famous government buildings and monuments. They put the phrase “separation of Church and state” in the constitution because they didn’t want misinterpretations of the Bible to govern us and they believed in the right of the people to have freedom of religion not because they were against the Bible or what the Bible says.
One of the great warnings in the Bible tells us not to follow popular notions blindly. The founding fathers trusted God and God says plainly that He will reveal himself to those that diligently seek him. READ THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELF.
A great example of people following blindly is this country’s war on drugs. It sounds good. It promises to protect individuals and society from the dangers of drugs. In reality the drug war does way more harm than the drugs and there are much better ways to deal with drugs and addictions but honest drug education and medical treatment for those with addictions would prevent crooks and crooked politicians from lining their pockets. If you’d like to get some honest insight on the drug war and its political propaganda. Visit this website but you’re going to have to READ IT FOR YOURSELF TOO:
If you're using Internet Explorer web browser use this link: http://jsknow.angelfire.com/home
If you're using any other web browser use this link: http://jsknow.angelfire.com/index.html
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» RE: Fundamentals of the Bible, Christianity and politics
Posted by: Dboy
» Christianity, as all religions, is derivative crap. Get a life.
Posted by: thekidde
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Posted by: billwald on Jun 12, 2008 11:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: BlueGorilla on Jun 12, 2008 11:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In this case a neo-facist indicates that God has directed him to a "top people first"religious path..and also that God has let him know that unions are the devil's organisations (actually I always had a feeling that Jimmy Hoffa was slaughtering cockrels to Beelzebub).
Groups from Ayran supremacists to Christian Communists can find evidence from either the Bible,and/or their psychotic visions,to support their point of view.
Plus religious interpretation often reflects the society in which it is being (re)interpreted.Christianity in South and Central America has often been of a more left wing liberationist type,than the "God hates the poor,the gay ,and decency or reason"type,manufactured on the US right.
The Bible is vast,and whether taken literally or metaphorically,aspects can be read as supporting most political viewpoints.
If any aspect doesn't support your theory,then twist it ...ie the conservative literalists as pointed out above,claim that the rich man/eye of the needle passage is the only metaphor in a sea of literalism..You could also ignore what doesn't suit you,like Bush/B-Liar et al do when it comes to turning the other cheek,or not bearing false witness re wmds.
Now history,as we know is full of people who claim that God has instructed them,Dubya,B-liar,David Koreshi,Joan Of Arc,Saint Paul etc etc.In all likelihood they should have taken their medication,and got some psycho-therapy ,which might have helped their psychosis..and stopped the auditory-or in this guys case-visual hallucinations.
Personally I beleive that there is much that is good and progressive in the Bible,from Jesus defence of prostitutes,to social and racial equality, to anti-Mammon statements,but there are also potential justifications for slavery,racial superiority and particularly in the Torah,a vengeance based justice.
See its so easy to take the bits you like,and ignore the other bits.I'm not a Christian,but I think that the thinker who came closest to Jesus's own agenda was Karl Marx..but I may be unconsciously ignoring a few less egalitarian Christ statements to make my own case.
If im to be honest its all or nothing ,really,but no Christian could possibly carry the weight of all those thousands of contradictions.
We've just got to watch out for the formula, whereby a partial adoption of Christianity (ie the bits that suit a particular case),become's a tool of oppression.In America,this is a weapon used overwhelmingly, by the far right, neo-cons.
It seems that in an increasingly authoritarian ,or semi-theocratic state like the USA ,then a bit of backing from the Bible,or a teatime visit from God is a must,to gain your requisite audience of fools.Or even to become President,or a leading politician.
Secularists and Christians of genuine faith (as opposed to those with convenient hatreds ),hold your nerve,because the "Christian"right is still in the ascent.However in a class ridden society like America, with growing disenchantment at poverty,growing anger at being neo-conned into going to war,declining living standards etc,the cracks in their amateurishly composed religious-political ideology will get wider and wider.
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Posted by: Lauren on Jun 12, 2008 12:05 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you for sharing. It must be great to have a magic book that gives you so much power over other people. So now that I know their magic spell, it cold lose it's punch.
I suppose it literally means MY powers are then ALSO ordained by god, hmm?
I bet that is a spot they didn't want to find themselves in, huh?
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» RE: omans:13: "The Powers that Be are Ordained of God"
Posted by: Dboy
» "Amen" - ignorance is certainly bliss when it come to religion. It seems all "religious"
Posted by: thekidde
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Posted by: master09 on Jun 12, 2008 1:35 PM
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» RE: MOSES
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: MOSES
Posted by: Docent
» No one, anywhere, has been sent by "god" to do anything. Politicians
Posted by: thekidde
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Posted by: chiefwanadubie on Jun 12, 2008 1:38 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: rtmyth on Jun 12, 2008 2:37 PM
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» Apparently, religious opinions run the length of the political spectrum
Posted by: nochicagoboys
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Posted by: PaulK on Jun 12, 2008 2:57 PM
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My father is an old guy who goes fishing now, but back in the day he was heavily into Christianity, stockpiling dozens of guns for the coming Race War, and Fascist economic dogma. I probably took my life in my hands visiting him.
Fascist economics is based on someone's idea that all wealth comes from the soil, e.g. fasces of wheat spring from the soil. Technically this might be true, everything in our houses did come from the ground, but this insight is kind of useless as an economic theory. What useful thing does the theory predict? Does such a theory in any way help me flip burgers? Also, Bill Gates made a huge pile of wealth and he didn't use very much soil or oil to make his CDs. Anyways, my father really had great faith in this economic theory, and he bought the inevitable, "and we may have to kill people for this stupid theory".
Stalinism is mostly the same tag line, "we have to kill people", added to another set of economic theories. The credibility of the theories, or lack thereof, should not be confused with the tag line, "and we have to kill people."
For that matter, Christianity was all about the nonviolent pacifist response of the Jewish people to tyrannical Roman military rule. So the Christian leaders added a tag line: "As He died to make men holy, let us die (actually, let's kill people) to make men free."
The current crop of Christian power-loving ding dongs are just one in a long line of such groups. The previous super-secret Christian group, the Ku Klux Klan, worked from within vast numbers of American churches in the 1920s.
Please strip these brainless Evangelicals away from the ideas of Christianity, from anticommunism, and even from obscure Fascist economic theories if you're really into that sort of thing. Look at the theories fresh -- they're just someone's ideas. Don't paint anyone's political, religious, economic or other ideology with what the power-grubbers say in their name.
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Posted by: securacom-wtc on Jun 12, 2008 4:10 PM
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George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany. http://www.infowars.com
/print/Bush/grandfather_helped_nazi.htm
Free Documentary on www.video.google.com 'One Nation Under Siege'(1.4hrs). Through the research and personal testimony of over a dozen internationally distinguished authors, journalists, doctors, and military experts (Major General Albert Stubblebine) you will understand the massive and ceaseless control projected onto an unsuspecting populace by a government that may have finally crossed the line from a representative republic to a fascist empire. From the USA PATRIOT Act and the blatant disregard for the Bill of Rights to the outright tracking of every human being on the planet earth, you will be stunned by what U.S. government documents describe for the future of America. http://www.undersiegemovie.com/
USA’s Constitution and currency are being destroyed from within. How? Videos free on www.video.google.com 1) America: Freedom to Fascism, 2 hrs; 2)911 Justice, 18min; 3) The Clinton Chronicles, 1.7 hrs; 4) Endgame: Blueprint for Global Enslavement, 2 hrs, 5) Terrorstorm: A History of False Flag Terror, 2 hrs 6) 911 Mysteries, 2 hrs; 7)The Creature from Jekyll Island, 1hr; 8)Orwell Rolls in His Grave, 2hrs; 9) The War on Democracy, 1.5 hrs; 10) The Energy Non-Crisis, 1 hr; 11)Iraq for Sale 1.2 hr; 12) Zeitgeist, 2 hrs; 13)Ring of Power, 2.5 hrs; 14)Bush link to JFK, 1.5 hrs; 15) The Century of the Self, 4 hrs; 16) Loose Change (2nd ed & Final cut) 2hrs each; 17)John Pilger: The New Rulers of the World; 18) The Money Masters: How International Bankers Gained Control of America, 3.5 hrs 19) Barack Obama CFR info 20) Global Warming or Global Governance 21) The Great Global Warming Swindle 22) Mercury, Autism and The Global Vaccine Agenda 23) The CIA, Mind Control and Satanism 24)George Hunt: UN UNCED Earth Summit 1992 (Population Reduction) 25) End of NAtions - EU Takeover 26) Washington, You're Fired 27) Blackwater: America's Private Army 28) Esoteric Agenda 29) Fiat Empire: Why the Federal Reserve Violates the U.S. COnstitution 30) The Revolution Will not be Televised [USA overthrow of Hugo Chavez] 31) One Nation Under Siege 32)Breaking The Silence - Truth and Lies in the War on Terror, by John Pilger(and all his documentaries) 33)Beyond Treason 1.5hrs
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» Read: Democracy Inc.:Managed democracy and ...
Posted by: davidg
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Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Jun 12, 2008 4:28 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is almost no abomination or perversion that Bush has not accomplished to enhance or create with Him and Rove running our country..
Of course we have to suffer all this because "Impeachment is off the table...!"
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Posted by: bcgirl125 on Jun 12, 2008 5:35 PM
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http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance143.html
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Posted by: securacom-wtc on Jun 12, 2008 5:58 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2. The IMF is an agency of the UN
3. The U.S. Has not had a Treasury since 1921.
4. The U.S. Treasury is now the IMF.
5. The Attorney General of the U.S. is not employed by the U.S. But is an Agent of INTERPOL which is head quartered in Lyons, France
6. The United States does not have any employees.
7. Social Security Numbers are issued by the UN through the IMF.
8. There are no Judicial courts in America and there has not been since 1789. Judges do not enforce Statutes and Codes. Executive Administrators enforce Statutes and Codes.
9. There have not been any Judges in America since 1789. There have just been Administrators.
10. According to the GATT you must have a Social Security number.
11. You are an "Institutional Unit" in which your body and labor are pledged to the UN through the IMF
12. We have One World Government, One World Law and a One World Monetary System
13. Your Social Security number is your slave number. Just about everyone in the World has a Social Security number from the UN through the IMF.
14. The UN is a One World
15. No one on this planet has ever been free. This planet is a Slave Colony. There has always been One World Government. It is just that now it is much better organized and has changed its name as of 1945 to the United Nations. Super Government.
16. New York City is defined in the Federal Regulations as the United Nations. Rudolph Gulliani stated on C-Span that "New York City was the capital of the World" and he was correct.
17. Social Security is not insurance or a contract, nor is there a Trust Fund.
18. Your Social Security check comes directly from the IMF, which is an Agency of the UN
19. You own no property, slaves can't own property. Read the Deed to the property that you think is yours. You are listed as a Tenant.
20. The most powerful court in America is not the United States Supreme Court but, the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania.(who is running the new home Defense program but the Gov from Penns.?
To verify the facts in the preceding paragraphs see (5 U.S.C. 903, 12 U.S.C. 95, 18 U.S.C.A. 914, 22 U.S.C. 263, 285, 286, 287, 288. Public Law 89-719, Public Law 94-564, Public Law 101-167, Public Law 91-151 Public Law 103-465, House Report 103-826 T.D.O 150-10, T.D.O. 92, 41 Stat. Chap 214 pg. 654, Emergency Banking Act 48 Stat. 1, Articles of Agreement 60 Stat. 1440, 20 CFR chapter 111, subpart B 422.103 (b) (2) (2), United Nations Secretariat Revised System of National Accounting, Diversified Metal Products v. IRS et al. CV-93-405E-EJE U.S.D.C.D.I., Cromelin v. United States, 177 F.2d 275, 277 Tomalewski v. United States, 493 F.Supp 673, 675 Foster v. Bork, 425 F.Supp 1318, 1319-20 FRC v. GE 281 U.S. 464, Keller v. PE 261 U.S. 428, United States v. LePatourel, 571 F2d 405, 410, Respublica v. Sweers 1 Dallas 43, INTERPOL Constitution Art. 30, Executive Order 10422, Papal Bulls of 1455 and 1493. 42 Pa.C.S.A. 502. General Agreement on Trade and Tariffs.
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Posted by: Timberbee on Jun 12, 2008 6:24 PM
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Posted by: desidid on Jun 12, 2008 6:27 PM
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Posted by: willymack on Jun 12, 2008 6:42 PM
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Posted by: pbutler on Jun 12, 2008 7:45 PM
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Like most of God's American emissaries, he spends much of his time imploring believers for money.
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Posted by: Jbuuty on Jun 13, 2008 12:24 AM
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Lindsay Beyerstein: Explicit sexual confession in small groups is a big deal in the Family, right?
Jeff Sharlet: Yes. I started paying attention when I visited Westmont College, a major recruiting base for the Family. Some of the professors are very concerned about the focus on small group sex confessions: Parents are spending $80,000 to send their kids to college, and they go off to become a driver for Doug Coe. Then they tell their parents that they sat in a circle and talked about masturbation. Of course, they don't do that sort of thing at the weekly prayer meeting in the Senate.
Sam Brownback told me, there are two functions of sexual confession: You confess, and they help you. You say, "My girlfriend and I almost held hands the other day." And they say "Don't do it, brother!" It's also a way of creating a bond in the group: If I have had gay thoughts and I tell the group, then they have something on me. And if you say you've cheated on your wife, they have something on you.
Lindsay Beyerstein: Kind of a mutually assured destruction?
Jeff Sharlet: Yeah.
I've read other articles by Sharlet (in Harper's and Mother Jones) and while I like much of what he says, he seems to often make some rather broad assumptions without evidence, at least the evidence isn't produced in the articles. I think religious writers like Sharlet need to become more theologically aware of the groups they are studying. The purely sociological and journalistic approach misses a lot because the writer interprets certain actions and certain statements through his/her own 'frames'.
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» RE: Misrepresentation??
Posted by: JeffSharlet
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Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Jun 13, 2008 1:29 AM
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But the catch is that there is NOT one speck of evidence for any god of any kind. And if you did your homework, there is NOT one speck of evidence for the miracle producing Jesus, let alone his father.
I would ask you why we need holy books of any kind to run our lives anyway? Or more importantly to run the lives of OTHERS? (I don't give a rats a$$ what you do to run your own pathetic lives.)
Is it because, for example, all the works of science cannot equal the wisdom of nomadic, cave-dwelling, sheep-sacrificing primitives who thought every animal species in the world lived within walking distance of Noah's house?
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» RE: As if we needed more evidence that...
Posted by: AppleMommie AZ
» The posterior of rodents
Posted by: Philip Newton
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Posted by: bitsfick on Jun 13, 2008 3:36 AM
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Posted by: philipcfromnyc on Jun 13, 2008 5:13 AM
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Posted by: trouble on Jun 13, 2008 10:34 AM
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Posted by: j downs on Jun 13, 2008 11:17 AM
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» RE: Jesus could not bite anyone in the ass...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
» RE: Jesus could not bite anyone in the ass...(Evidence...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
» RE: Jesus could not bite anyone in the ass...(Evidence...still need it...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
» RE: Continued...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
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Posted by: kathaksung on Jun 13, 2008 5:01 PM
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He has predicted that God tell him Bush would win the election. Is this God that secret group?
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Posted by: tngreen on Jun 13, 2008 8:20 PM
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Posted by: Jangeen@netzero.net on Jun 14, 2008 3:34 AM
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» RE: Simply put...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal
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Posted by: Philip Newton on Jun 16, 2008 4:01 PM
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Grade: A
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Posted by: J_Mo on Jun 17, 2008 7:48 AM
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:P
~J-Mo (not a Satanist)
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Posted by: corgan1003 on Jun 17, 2008 1:08 PM
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Posted by: whealeydj on Jun 18, 2008 11:18 PM
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Posted by: whealeydj on Jun 18, 2008 11:33 PM
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Posted by: thekidde on Jun 19, 2008 7:10 AM
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Posted by: bensobin on Jun 19, 2008 3:22 PM
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If JC is observing all of this, and the other horrors of our day, he must be
wondering if it is all a farce.
Where would he cast DUBYA and the rest of that CABAL ?
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Posted by: pfeifer's day off on Jun 21, 2008 9:01 AM
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Your mention of Cromwell is a red herring (a side issue to distract), as well as a logical fallacy (an incorrect conclusion). Will you be returning to the original issue: the Spanish Inquisition? The Spanish Inquisition was brought to Mexico against Jews, in particular (African Americans, Mexican Indians and Mexicans of mixed races were also persecuted by the Inquisition) in the 16th century C.E. The Roman church would like us to think the Inquisition ended in Mexico in 1821 C.E., but the Inquisition became the Congregation of the Holy Office (circa 1542 C.E.) then Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (circa C.E.). The current pope, Benedict, was head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (the Inquisition) until he became pope.
Actually, Galileo (heliocentrism; convicted but recanted to avoid death penalty) was NOT “the only scientist with whom the Church had any friction”. Copernicus’s book on heliocentrism was put on the Inquisition’s Index of Banned Books, for example. Giordano Bruno (heliocentrism and universalism of physical/natural laws) was burned at the stake by the Roman church. One exception belies “only”. Were cathedral solar observatories independent of the Roman church, at liberty to pursue studies in heliocentrism? No. I thought not. More likely the Roman church tolerated cathedral solar observatories only to pursue lunar theology, to maintain its calendar of those central pagan holidays (Easter—Goddess of Spring and Xmas—birth of God Mithras)? Interestingly, the prophet Jeremiah objected to cutting down a tree out of the forest, decorating the tree with silver and gold, and securing the tree in stationary fashion (Jeremiah 10:2-4). Why do xns persist in this “heathen” practice of xmas trees do you think? What “defensive measure” was issued to murder Jews in France and Germany as the Crusaders marched across Europe before they arrived in Byzantium? Robert of Aguiliers, Albert of Aix, and Radulph of Caen reported that they cannibalized (ate) Muslim children and adults at Maarat (in modern Syria). Historians of those Later Crusades reported that indeed the Crusaders committed fraticide against Orthodox xns and genocide against Jews and Muslims in the Byzantium and its environs. The Crusades lasted considerably longer than 300 years (? To ? C.E.) You do not want to lump all of the Crusades together as evil, much as Muslims do not want to lump all Muslims together as evil, eh?
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» Pfieffer999 and the Edict of the Expulsion of the Jews (Section II)
Posted by: pfeifer's day off
» Pfeifer999, (a) Jesus and Gravity (Section III)
Posted by: pfeifer's day off
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