COMMENTS: 244
Stopping the War Machine: Military Recruiters Must Be Confronted
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Not since the Vietnam War protests of the late 1960s has there been a cause more just than the one you are now engaged in. Who knows better the deep immorality and deception of military recruiters than those of us who, decades ago, entered those same recruiting offices with our fathers, believing in our hearts that we were being told the truth -- only to discover later we had been deceived and terribly betrayed? Many of us paid for that deceit with our lives, years of suffering and bodies and minds that were never the same again. If only someone had warned us, if only someone had had the courage to speak out against the madness that we were being led into, if only someone could have protected us from the recruiters whose only wish was to make their quota, send us to boot camp and hide from us the dark secret of the nightmare which awaited us all.
Over the past five years, I have watched in horror the mirror image of another Vietnam unfolding in Iraq. So many similarities, so many things said that remind me of that war 30 years ago which left me paralyzed and confined to a wheelchair for life. Refusing to learn from the lessons of Vietnam, our government continues to pursue a policy of deception, distortion, manipulation and denial, doing everything it can to hide from the American people their true intentions and agenda in Iraq. As we pass the fifth anniversary of the start of this tragic and senseless war, I cannot help but think of the young men and women who have been wounded, nearly 30,000, flooding Walter Reed, Bethesda, Brooke Army Medical Center and veterans hospitals all across our country. Paraplegics, amputees, burn victims, the blinded, shocked and stunned, brain-damaged and psychologically stressed, a whole new generation of severely maimed men and women who were not even born when I came home wounded to the Bronx Veterans Hospital in New York in 1968.
Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), which afflicted so many of us after Vietnam, is just now beginning to appear among soldiers recently returned from the current war. For some the agony and suffering, the sleepless nights, anxiety attacks and awful bouts of insomnia, alienation, anger and rage will last for decades -- if not their whole lives. They will be trapped in a permanent nightmare of that war, of killing another man, a child, watching a friend die ... fighting against an enemy that can never be seen, while at any moment someone, a child, a woman, an old man -- anyone -- might kill them.
These traumas return home with us and we carry them, sometimes hidden, for agonizing decades. They deeply impact our daily lives, and the lives closest to us. To kill another human being, to take another life out of this world with one pull of a trigger, is something that never leaves you. It is as if a part of you dies with that person. If you choose to keep on living, there may be a healing, and even hope and happiness again, but that scar and memory and sorrow will be with you forever. Why did the recruiters never mention these things? This was never in the slick pamphlets they gave us.
Some of these veterans are showing up at homeless shelters around our country, while others have begun to courageously speak out against the senselessness and insanity of this war and to demand answers from the leaders who sent them there. During the 2004 Democratic National Convention, returning soldiers formed a group called Iraq Veterans Against the War, just as we had marched in Miami in August of 1972 as Vietnam Veterans Against the War. Still others have refused deployment to Iraq, gone to Canada and begun resisting this immoral and illegal war. Like many other Americans, I have seen them on television or at the local veterans hospitals, but for the most part, they remain hidden like the flag-draped caskets of our dead returned to Dover Air Force Base in the dark of night, as this administration continues to pursue a policy of censorship, tightly controlling the images coming out of that war and rarely allowing the human cost of its policy to be seen.
Many of us promised ourselves long ago that we would never allow what happened to us in Vietnam to happen again. We had an obligation, a responsibility, as citizens, as Americans, as human beings, to raise our voices in protest. We could never forget the hospitals, the intensive-care wards, the wounded all around us fighting for their lives, those long and painful years after we came home, those lonely nights. There were lives to save on both sides, young men and women who would be disfigured and maimed, mothers and fathers who would lose their sons and daughters, wives and other loved ones who would suffer for decades to come if we did not do everything we could to stop the momentum of this madness.
Mario Savio once said, "There's a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can't take part, you can't even passively take part, and you've got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you've got to make it stop! And you've got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you're free the machine will be prevented from working at all."
It is time to stop the war machine. It is time for bold and daring action on the part of us all. Precious lives are at stake, both American and Iraqi, and military recruiters must be confronted at every turn, in every high school, every campus, every recruiting office, on every street corner, in every town and city across America. In no uncertain terms we must make it clear to them that by their actions they represent a threat to our community, to our children and all that we cherish. We must explain to them that condemning our young men and women to their death, setting them up to be horribly maimed, and psychologically damaged in a senseless and immoral war, is wrong and unpatriotic and will not be tolerated by Berkeley -- or, for that matter, any town or city in the United States.
The days of deceiving, manipulating and victimizing our young people are over. We have had enough, and I strongly encourage all of you to use every means of creative, nonviolent civil disobedience to stop military recruitment all across our country. I stand with you in this important and courageous fight, and I am confident your actions in the days ahead will inspire countless others across our country to do everything they can to end this deeply immoral and illegal war.
(Note: This statement represents portions of several essays and writings I have done over the past five years. -- R.K.)
Kovic is an outspoken critic of the war in Iraq.
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Posted by: NoPCZone on May 30, 2008 12:34 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Recruiters are not volunteer positions for the most part. Most recruiters are assigned the position, out under quotas and could have their careers ended if they do not produce. Otherwise, these young men and women are under great pressure and most try to honestly do what they have been assigned and honestly present recruits with an accurate picture. Some probably do not, but that is not the case most or all of the time.
When you protest, as you have a legitimate right as a citizen to do, I ask that you do it respectfully. As most of us cannot know what an individual recruiter does in the discharge of their duty, we should give them, individually, the benefit of the doubt that they are honorable members of our armed forces assigned to do a difficult and sometimes conflicting job.
If one knows of a dishonest recruiter they should be reported to the recruiting command, your Congressional delegation and, if necessary, the media. A dishonest recruiter dishonors the service they are a member of, the honorable tradition of service to our nation, the nation at large, the millions who have served and the young men and women willing to serve.
All I ask is that you conduct your protests in an orderly and respectful, but firm, manner. The young man or woman serving as a recruiter may be doing an honest job and only following orders- even possibly ones they do not desire.
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» Well said, with a clarification.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Well Said, with a Caveat
Posted by: 1oyate
» You're so confused. I feel sorry for you.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» A lot of us are confused and our government is the cause.
Posted by: EinMD
» Specifically...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Get Real
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: You're so confused. I feel sorry for you.
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: You're so confused. I feel sorry for you.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» And if you don't have any idea as to what a chain of command is?...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Fix it from the bottom up
Posted by: countingdaisies
» RE: Well Said, with a Caveat
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Well Said, with a Caveat
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Well Said, with a Caveat
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Well Said, with a Caveat
Posted by: sirios
» RE: Well Said, with a Caveat
Posted by: dr_dredd
» Caveat this
Posted by: leafsong1
» "only following orders" = shittiest excuse for anything
Posted by: deborama
» RE: Buyer Beware!
Posted by: desidid
» hey JUST LIKE PIMPS DO TO THEIR 'Talent'... !
Posted by: BlueBerry PickN
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Posted by: Mexitli on May 30, 2008 12:45 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Young people in Tijuana, MX are secretly being recruited in local bars by the U.S. Army, says Fernando Suarez del Solar, founder of The Aztec Warriors for Peace Project aka GuerreroAzteca.org.
Army Recruiters dressed in civilian clothes buy young people beer then encourage them to enlist in exchange for citizenship.
Fernando, father of Jesús Alberto Suárez del Solar Navarro, who was killed in Iraq, would like to see Tijuana, MX become a sanctuary city for conscientious objectors to the war in Iraq.
Recruitment of Tijuana, MX Youth by the U.S. Army Denounced
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Posted by: carbon-based on May 30, 2008 2:54 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Moving our elected politicians to do what we want them to do re protests, hitting their pockets etc, will have a greater effect. Boycott an industry that is supporting politicians that do not work to end the war!
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» RE: Hit the $$$$
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Hit the $$$$
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Hit the $$$$
Posted by: nochicagoboys
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Posted by: blogbooks on May 30, 2008 3:27 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are a few factors in play that make them enlist anyway. First, young men typically have more testosterone than good sense. Second, they are willing to "roll the dice" and see what happens.
Sometimes when your choices in life are confined to working at Burger King or taking your chances in the military, you just take your chances. Most young people that join the military know they could end up dead or injured but they hope they won't and sign up anyway.
You can't stop recruitment as long as the wages, bonuses, and benefits are better than what anyone in the bottom 20% of our economic strata could hope to achieve in the civilian market before the age of 35.
However, as a veteran (OEF/OIF, non-combat) I will say that the military sucks whether you're getting shot at or not.
Still, the new G.I. Bill is going to be a huge recruitment boon for the military and I don't think they're going to have any problem finding warm bodies any time soon because of it.
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» RE: Enlistment
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: enlistment not the only option
Posted by: Jelfring
» RE: nlistment
Posted by: EinMD
» Sure, that's a part of it
Posted by: blogbooks
» Excuses
Posted by: EinMD
» Life's tough, wear a helmet
Posted by: blogbooks
» RE: Life's tough, wear a helmet
Posted by: EinMD
» You're an enraged young person with no capacity for rational thought
Posted by: blogbooks
» NO, the military runs numbers & hopes you blow your head off
Posted by: BlueBerry PickN
» Shove your helmet
Posted by: countingdaisies
» Have you ever been to a McDonalds?
Posted by: Ayla87
» Parents and family can have influence
Posted by: countingdaisies
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Posted by: WaldoMaui on May 30, 2008 3:33 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As Americans, not even in our prayers are we humble, for we see ourselves as the anointed ones, the rightful occupants of our pre-eminent “shining city on a hill.” We suppose that we have forged the most advanced civilization in history.
So how do we as a nation react when faced with a serious challenge? From our lofty perch, what is the most highly evolved response we manage to summon? As a result of engaging all of our intellect and experience and insight, what course of action do we choose to best serve our highest ideals and aspirations?
We send our children out into the streets to kill other people’s children.
Forgive me if I conclude that this is a day not to puff out our chests in national pride, but rather, a day to mournfully acknowledge our grotesque lack of imagination in sending our youth to war.
David L. Wilson
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» RE: What We Must Acknowledge on Memorial Day
Posted by: sirios
» RE: What We Must Acknowledge on Memorial Day......what we see.
Posted by: Captainmagic
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Posted by: sheena2u on May 30, 2008 3:45 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Parents were not explained the process beforehand, but the process required parents to send in "Opt Out" forms every semester for each student that had reached the age of 18. Otherwise, the student's were fair game for the recruiters. This also included severely disabled students. An "Opt Out" form is required every semester, and there is a small window of time in which to get it in. If it is not received, every single branch of the services is at liberty to contact the student by phone and mail to try to get them to join the service.
The recruiters are just doing their job. It is the Bush White House that has been responsible for this siege of our innocent students. They could not bring the draft back since it had been so unpopular in the Vietnam war, so they used every possible method of targeting the young and immature, and in keeping in existing soldiers in endlessly recurring tours of duty. Some of the results is that families have disintegrated under the strain, and soldiers have committed suicide at unprecedented rates.
While we face the horrors of war I want everyone to remember that it was the Bush adminstration's failed policies that brought us here.
There were never any Weapons of Mass Destruction. We had no right to invade and attack a sovereign country that had not attacked us, and based on what they might have or what they might think or do if they had the ability. Pre-emptive war is immoral and illegal.
War is always a last, and not a first, resort.
The Bush administration wanted to attack Iraq. There was no relation between Bin Laden and Saddam. There was no problem in Iraq with insurgency and terrorists until we occupied Iraq. We are less safe, thousands of brave soldiers have lost their lives unnecessarily, or are now forced to live with severe disabilities, and thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians have been displaced because of this preciptious, unwise, and badly managed war.
Scott McClellan has written an expose of the Bush administration, and confirmed what most of us have suspected or known all along.
Now we must bring our soldiers home. We must take better care of our veterans. We must be sure the get the best benefits when they get home. No other choice is acceptable. We must support the families. We must build America up again. And we must vote for change in November.
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Posted by: Moonray on May 30, 2008 3:57 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Confronting military recruiters is a waste of time and very, very counterproductive. The community IMMEDIATELY turns against the protesters and any confrontation gives pro-war jugheads an opportunity to thump their chests on local and national television.
Contrary to current popular belief, the anti-war protests of the 1960s were almost completely ineffective in stopping the war, and indeed had just the opposite effect. It wasn't until the Watergate scandal of the early '70s resulted in big changes in Congress that the plug was finally pulled on the Vietnam debacle.
Instead of confronting recruiters, anti-war forces should emphasize their own patriotism and military connections, then politely point out the many flaws in the pro-war policies. Lord knows there are plenty to point out. And, by all means, avoid appearing loud, arrogant, flamboyant or otherwise different from other folks.
I know whereof I speak. As an Army enlisted man in uniform, I was at the Pentagon during a mass protest in 1967 and served in Vietnam the next year.
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» Excellent points!
Posted by: SufiLizard
» Stop aiding and abetting the enemy...boycott right-wing businesses
Posted by: CulturalMutilation
» CulturalMutilation you are worse than right wing and a bigot to boot.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Stop aiding and abetting the enemy...boycott right-wing businesses
Posted by: carbon-based
» Guitar Center is owned by Bain Capital LLC. Romney was a only a partner. So what?
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Wrong wrong....., is wrong
Posted by: grkjr
» RE: Wrong wrong....., is wrong
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Wrong, wrong, wrong -- again! (Not true!)
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Even nonviolent protests will appear unpatriotic on TV
Posted by: Moonray
» RE: ven nonviolent protests will appear unpatriotic on TV
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» It didn't work with Vietnam and isn't working now
Posted by: Moonray
» My history may be rusty
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: My history may be rusty
Posted by: aonghus36
» Read the history; Ike/Nixon laid groundwork for Vietnam
Posted by: Moonray
» RE: Wrong, wrong, wrong -- again!
Posted by: aonghus36
» If MSM ignores demonstrations, why hold them?
Posted by: Moonray
» RE: Wrong, wrong, wrong -- again!
Posted by: leafsong1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on May 30, 2008 4:11 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: When parents in Middle America can go out of their way to fight teaching evolution in schools,
Posted by: desidid
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Posted by: Purple Girl on May 30, 2008 4:14 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have no desire to undercut our military Readiness, but I do Not want any more sent over to the M.E. Granted we must Educate our 'enlistment' age citizens regarding the Criminality of this War. But that must be done from the Top. I have been very concerned there has been a Concerted effort to destroy OUR Armed Services so tha tthe Private Profiteer Mercenaries can be incorporated as a form of OUR Defense.Who do they pledge their allegeince Too- the Top Bidder? so I would prefer only those who have Patriotic Blood coursing through their veins to Defend this Country and US.
Military Service is not the Problem, It is solely a matter of the 'mission' and as far as I'm concerned this One is for the Benefit of ou=nly the saudis/UAE and their Oil Industry Minions- A land Grab.This Is NOT what OUR Military is to be used For- Let the 'royals' & Inc's stop sucking off US to defend THEIR inteerests and Global Stratedgies, DO NOT ALLOW THEM TO HIDE BEHIND US- using our reputation, our Treasures and OUR KIDS BLOOD!
In Fact I'd like to see more Recruiters to encourage Everyone to enlist so that WE may Conquer Those who are Domestic Enemies hiding in our Gov't and Industry. I want Our 'Kids' nad Our 'toys' to come home and start arresting the entire Executive Branch, Majority in both Houses of Congress, about 3/4 of SCOTUS ,along with the 'top Criminals' in the Oil, Auto, Banking and 'Investment' Industry.it is time to initiate the 'Protect & Defend the Constitution and the Citizens From Domestic enemies' part of their Mission Statement
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» spoken like the foul jewish princess you are
Posted by: CulturalMutilation
» cultural mutilation - read purple girl's post again...
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» read it again?
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: cultural mutilation - read purple girl's post again...
Posted by: countingdaisies
» ZOG? Spoken like a true neo-nazi illiterate.
Posted by: yellow
» Interpreter necessary
Posted by: countingdaisies
» Like most ignorant bigots, Cultural Mutilation has all his facts wrong as well. He is clueless.
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: Kahomono on May 30, 2008 4:24 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Stop the imperialist attitude of the government, stop the military adventurism, stop the waste of our military power on non-threats to our national security. THOSE are credible goals. Trying to cut off the supply of personnel? The recruitment strategies are many and varied; old folks like me remember a Vietnam-era recruitment strategy called "the draft."
They will get their bodies. We need to control what they do with them.
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» Let them draft; let them hire mercenaries
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: SufiLizard on May 30, 2008 4:36 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A recruiter got him to sign up ON his 18th birthday, even though he was just starting his Junior year of high school.
After consulting with church members and one of our pastors he came to realize the mistake he had made, but the military doesn't want to get their hooks out of him.
Fortunately he has the support of not only our congregation, but there are a lot of resources in our denomination to help him. But his future is still quite uncertain.
I'd like to see a discussion of specific actions a small group could take to help get recruiters out of our schools.
Or barring that, send recruiters from groups like Christian Peacemaker Teams and other, secular peace groups into the schools to recruit right along-side the military recruiters.
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» Hey, READ THIS and help the kid
Posted by: blogbooks
» RE: Hey, READ THIS and help the kid (Great resource!)
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» For my nephew it was too late for this out, but . . .
Posted by: countingdaisies
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ZombyWoof on May 30, 2008 4:48 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Only if they think they need to fight guerilla warfare against Americans
Posted by: blogbooks
» BS ALERT!!!
Posted by: robbie.seal
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Posted by: KAEL on May 30, 2008 4:49 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If there were a mass disinformation campaign going on in recruiting offices, we would hear about it or have seen a class action suit. The truth is that the vast majority of the military likes the institution they serve as well as the job they do, even if they do not support this war.
The left's pandering about the military is getting over the top - again. Most members did not enlist as an alternative to McDonalds, but as an alternative to all the jobs that were available at the time they were making a job or career choice - the same way every American chooses a job. And most members do not feel they were lied to. Yes, life after the first day on any job is not what one fantacized, but that awakening is no different for a CEO, bank teller or a firefighter.
Soldiers are just like other Americans, some left, some right, but most in the middle and doing a job they like and chose eyes wide open.
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» RE: Freedom to Fight for our Country
Posted by: grkjr
» RE: Freedom to Fight for our Country
Posted by: EinMD
» Brainwashed . . .
Posted by: countingdaisies
» RE: Freedom to Fight for our Country
Posted by: leafsong1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: redbird30328 on May 30, 2008 5:03 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» that AND supporting left-wing "American-Owned" businesses
Posted by: CulturalMutilation
» What's a left wing business. Sounds like more absurdity.
Posted by: yellow
» Don't eat the yellow snow... www.Buyblue.org
Posted by: CulturalMutilation
» Namecalling only shows what an uneducated moron you really are, CM
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: RedFoxOne on May 30, 2008 5:27 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
JT
Ultimate Anonymity
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Posted by: brer on May 30, 2008 5:29 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This February, he met a Navy recruiter who told him he could become a Navy Seal and talked him into signing up.
The kid asked if there would be a problem with his having tried to commit suicide, and the recruiter told him not to tell anyone about it.
The recruiter also told him not to cut his hair, because it was covering some scars from a motorcycle accident he'd had the year before.
This is the kind of recruiting that's being done!
This is the kind of kid we are recruiting. It's no wonder that the suicide rate is so high if they are recruiting sucidal kids to begin with.
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» Navy recruiters are VERY aggressive
Posted by: blogbooks
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Posted by: Farasien on May 30, 2008 5:56 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After THAT, setp 2... attacking the monetary support for the war effort...
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» One Proud Dipshit
Posted by: robbie.seal
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Posted by: nomoreblinders on May 30, 2008 6:08 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I had 4 dollars 37 cent worth of pennies in a plastic bag when I joined the military
Posted by: blogbooks
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Posted by: sausage on May 30, 2008 6:50 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Besides an aging white person you're looking at one of the causes for the underhanded, deceptive recruiting practices our All Volunteer Force uses to lure young men and women whose "...choices in life are confined to working at Burger King or taking your chances in the military..."(blogbooks).
Remember how all you college educated, neo-Democrats of draft age, especially you 1-A guys argued, between hits on the bong, in dorm bull sessions, "End the draft now! Let those who want to be there, be there!"
Remember how you cheered in 1969 when the architect of our current rudderless economy and godfather to our anti-government politicians and god-grandfather to today's College Republican chickenhawks, Milton J. Friedman, flummoxed General William Westmoreland over whether volunteer recruits were mercenaries and draftees "slaves" or not during Gates Commission hearings. Oh, haw, haw, haw--lookit how that whimpy lookin' economist jes' made a jackass outta that dumbass general!!!
If you don't think that crappy hourly wage McDonalds, Wal Mart and the meat-packing industry gets away paying their employees, guess again. If civilian employers paid as well with as many benefits as does the U.S. military do you think Jessica Lynch or Lynndie England or millions of other boys and girls from impoverished areas of the country flock to the recruiting station?
And the irony of the All Volunteer Force, lost on libertarians of every stripe, including the late Friedman, is, the U.S. military is nothing but a big socialist program all on the taxpayers' dime!
So remember, aging hippies, it was you who wanted an end to the draft and its your grandchildren who are paying the consequences.
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» Conservatives and War Minded Presidents Caused This Mess!
Posted by: sofla100
» So naive. Sorry but somebody voted for those assholes.
Posted by: sausage
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Posted by: Axiom69 on May 30, 2008 7:17 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: If you succeed...
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: If you succeed...
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: If you succeed...
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: If we succeeded we the people would gain even more power back
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: If you succeed.. [Returning to the draft would be a very good option.
Posted by: Squarehead
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Posted by: grkjr on May 30, 2008 8:15 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: sofla100 on May 30, 2008 8:49 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Yep. The military isn't a bad deal as long as you don't get shot/poisoned/blow up.
Posted by: blogbooks
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Posted by: Col. Jackleg on May 30, 2008 9:18 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: emopaul on May 30, 2008 9:29 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.leavemychildalone.org/
and this film:
http://tinyurl.com/euofl
or at this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75Uog_7WrLk
It's hard to fathom how many lives have been ruined by this insane war.
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» And the kids with no parents or parents that don't care?
Posted by: blogbooks
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Posted by: sirios on May 30, 2008 9:33 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: stop fueling!
Posted by: isnamthere
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Posted by: terrymo on May 30, 2008 9:36 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let me tell you about two of them.
Our nephew, Tim, worked long and hard to earn an appointment to West Point. He grew up so much at the Point and learned about discipline and honor. He graduated and went on to helicopter flight school and was quickly promoted to Captain. And he remained the handsome, intelligent, goofy young man he always was. He talked over email to our daughter in March of 2006 and told her that he was proud of his service and of the men and women he was serving with and that his only regret would be if he was not around to see his baby girl grow up.
His helicopter was shot down on April 1, 2006 and he was killed.
Our son-in-law, Ben, met our daughter the very day Tim was killed. He was on leave from his first tour in Iraq. He joined the military after 9/11, not because he had nowhere else to go but because he felt compelled to serve. He was an E5 when Michelle met him and was on his way to his E6 when he deployed for the second time in December 2007, 7 months after they married. He believed strongly in God, his family, his wife, himself and Army discipline.
He was killed on December 26, 2007, an event that was reported and brutally debated in this very forum.
Neither of these young men were lured by an underhanded recruiter nor pushed by economic or educational circumstances. They went with a sense of duty and a belief that they were doing something special for their country.
I find it difficult now to hear young people their age whine and complain and wallow in self-indulgence, when they have done nothing to be of service to anyone.
Do not dishonor the majority of those in the military by tarring all with the same brush.
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» RE: Let me tell you a different story
Posted by: Axiom69
» Under Bush, The American Military No Longer Deserves the Patriotism and Sacrifice of Our Young
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Under Bush, The American Military No Longer Deserves the Patriotism and Sacrifice of Our Young
Posted by: Captainmagic
» RE: Under Bush, The American Military No Longer Deserves the Patriotism and Sacrifice of Our Young
Posted by: grkjr
» RE: Let me tell you a different story
Posted by: Smartcookie
» Well, they get a Darwin award. They self selected themselves for extinction.
Posted by: blogbooks
» You are a sad commentary
Posted by: robbie.seal
» Is honorably dead different than plain dead?
Posted by: countingdaisies
» RE: Is honorably dead different than plain dead?
Posted by: terrymo
» Some of us will not forget
Posted by: robbie.seal
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Posted by: MonkeyDaddy on May 30, 2008 9:43 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I call B.S. on that
Posted by: blogbooks
» Stupid monkey...
Posted by: robbie.seal
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on May 30, 2008 9:52 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
of a 'Higher education'. We can't make the legacy of our times to be the idea that if you disagree with someone it's OK to have them wacked. We must teach the truth about how the media controls the way we think by giving a slant to stories so your mind is guided to the ideals they wish us to support. We must teach them to think for themselves and turn off the TV. We must teach the power of Boycott and Non-support of bad policies and corperate greed,the real New World order. We must teach that it's corperations and not the politicians that run the country,decide when and where wars are fought and which class of people will do the dying. We must teach the truth that the power of Love must overcome the love of power
if we are to become a truly advanced society.
Draft Jeffrey7 for Prez '08
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Posted by: linsayb on May 30, 2008 10:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, I do not agree with banning recruiters. I think that we should push for transparency in military recruiting, but complete abolition is not only unlikely but potentially dangerous. Unfortunately, our current society has created a socio-economic hierarchy that is composed of a class of individuals who have few choices in life, and for many, the military offers a way for them to establish financial security, provide health care for their families (the only universal health are in the United States) and even obtain a college education.
I was a graduate of the College of William and Mary, served as Student Body President and was the director of numerous progressive organizations. I came out of college unable to find a job, with student loans and no health insurance. I did my research and determined that the military was a good way for me to solve many of these problems and that the only job I would accept in the Army was that of a Public Affairs specialist as I knew this would improve my chances of pursuing a career in journalism. Now that I am out of the military, my service has granted me Veterans Affairs health care (despite the problems, at least I have something) for the rest of my life, the GI Bill which I will be using when I begin graduate studies in journalism at U.C. Berkeley in the fall (hopefully Sen. Webb's improved GI Bill will be implemented quickly), my admission to each the six graduate programs I applied for was in part due to the experiences I had in the military.
While in the Army I dedicated my time to helping fellow soldiers understand the military bureaucracy and I now do the same for veterans in understanding the VA. I can say with certainty that I would not be where I am now were it not for the military and I know the are countless others who feel the same.
I am a strong proponent of mandatory government service, military or otherwise, patterned after the programs in countries such as Switzerland and Germany. If the military was comprised of individuals from all walks of life there would be greater transparency and perhaps no need for recruiters at all.
However, this will most likely never happen. That is why it is the responsibility of people, especially veterans, to press for transparency in recruiting, but also press to have ROTC programs reinstated in the several Ivy League schools who dropped them. If you want to ensure a fair and just military, and thus eliminate the possibility of political wars, then you need to pull all Americans together and encourage them to serve their part. We need to reestablish the direct connection between governing officials and those in the military that was so common in WWI and WWII.
I recommend that everyone pick up a copy of the book "AWOL: The Unexcused Absence of America's Upper Classes from Military Service-and How it Hurts Our Country" by Kathy Roth-Douquet and Frank Schaeffer. It will make you think.
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» RE:banning recruiters?
Posted by: Dboy
» You're what's known as an REMF.....
Posted by: Beepath
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Posted by: Ayla87 on May 30, 2008 10:46 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So I'll tell you what: I officially sign the papers in three weeks (provided everything goes well at MEPS). Then I head to Boot Camp in early August. If any of you can offer me a job in Ct for $25k/yr with health insurence, I'll tell my recruiter to take his contract, and his sign on bonus and shove it. Thats all I'm looking for. I don't think thats unreasonable to ask given all my work experience (5+ years, and I'm only 20), education and skills.
If not, then you're the ones who need to shove it. Because the military is offering me a hell of alot more than your bloated government has in my entire life.
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» Correction
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: The recruiters aren't the problem
Posted by: Dboy
» I have skills
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: I have skills
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Young man!?
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: Young man!?
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Only one problem...
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: Only one problem...
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Only one problem...
Posted by: Ayla87
» The Biggest Thing Bloating The Government
Posted by: pdxstudent
» Any job you are qualfied for can be done by an illegal
Posted by: blogbooks
» RE: Any job you are qualfied for can be done by an illegal
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Any job you are qualfied for can be done by an illegal
Posted by: Ayla87
» My advice is go Air Force.
Posted by: blogbooks
» Oh, one more thing.
Posted by: blogbooks
» Sorry, I don't want to sound like I'm recruiting in an anti-recruitment article's comments
Posted by: blogbooks
» RE: Any job you are qualfied for can be done by an illegal
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Any job you are qualfied for can be done by an illegal
Posted by: Ayla87
» The military doesn't always work out how you think
Posted by: blogbooks
» You don't just pull specialized skills out of thin air
Posted by: blogbooks
» There is so much more to offer
Posted by: robbie.seal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: undrgrndgirl on May 30, 2008 11:42 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
when my daughter was a senior in high school she used to get phone calls from the local recruiter ...i don't know what she ever said to him, but one evening i answered the phone [just after bush's illegal invasion of iraq] - he asked for her as if he were a close friend...he had a very deep voice and sounded far more mature than her friends, so i asked who he was and why he was calling. he said "i'm "nancy's" recruiter" - my response was "we don't have a recruiter - we are pacifists in this home do not call here again or i will report it as harassment" and hung up...to my knowledge he never called again.
when the recruiter calls: JUST SAY NO!
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» RE: one of the disturbing things about recruitment...
Posted by: Dboy
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Posted by: Axiom69 on May 30, 2008 11:55 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is the soldier, not the reporter,
who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet,
who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier, not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial.
It is the soldier,
who salutes the flag,
who serves under the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
who allows the protester to burn the flag.
By Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC
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» Soldiers are pawns
Posted by: frantaylor
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: frantaylor
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: frantaylor
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: frantaylor
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: frantaylor
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: frantaylor
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: Ayla87
» And if you believe that...
Posted by: dbarber
» RE: And if you believe that...
Posted by: EncinoM
» Hey! Wake up. This world isn't all sunshine and rainbows kid.
Posted by: blogbooks
» You can romanticize it all you want.
Posted by: EinMD
» Soldiers are pawns to deploy as a tool of corporatism gone wild
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Couldn't resist this....at your gate
Posted by: Captainmagic
» The message this conveys is absolutely correct
Posted by: blogbooks
» RE: The message this conveys is absolutely correct
Posted by: sirios
» Sorry, but Chairman Mao disagrees
Posted by: blogbooks
» RE: Couldn't resist this.
Posted by: sirios
» This is why chaplains should be axed from military
Posted by: Moonray
» What About the Free Market?
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Couldn't resist this.
Posted by: Dboy
» Another True Belivin' God Nazi!
Posted by: Beepath
» RE: Couldn't resist this.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Couldn't resist this [who, unwilling to stand out, executed the men,
Posted by: Squarehead
» Me either
Posted by: robbie.seal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sofla100 on May 30, 2008 1:06 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: willymack on May 30, 2008 1:37 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Can you say...
Posted by: robbie.seal
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Posted by: frantaylor on May 30, 2008 2:06 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't have to bother with an attribution for this quote.
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Posted by: Erik1968 on May 30, 2008 2:47 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It purports to be a social network of moms helping each other decide whether their kids should joing the Navy.
It is actually 100% recruiter propoganda bullshit.
Can't someone stop this? Please?
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» RE: The horror that is NAVYFORMOMS.COM
Posted by: Dboy
» Well, that whole "freedom of the press" and "freedom of expression"...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
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Posted by: badkitty on May 30, 2008 3:03 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on May 30, 2008 4:33 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My argument would be to get the bastards out of power, and thereby sate your desire to despise folks in uniform by letting them come home and quit eating babies, or whatever you fantasize that military members do for fun and profit.
Most of you are hopeless, however, and reasoning fails.
So does civics. Go back to sixth grade.
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» First, you have to get the attention of those in power.
Posted by: countingdaisies
» Indeed. In what is called a "volunteer force"...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: I note that if half the vitriol directed at military members were put to good use...
Posted by: Dboy
» Fail.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Hoorah!!!
Posted by: robbie.seal
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Posted by: Meow_phit_phit on May 30, 2008 4:42 PM
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Posted by: Michaelhetz on May 30, 2008 5:11 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My point is that I would recommend any soldier now in the service to simply stop following orders on moral grounds. The Army Field Manual states that it's the soldier's RESPONSIBILITY not to follow illegal orders. This war is based on lies about defense of freedom and security from terrorists. it is really a corporate war of occupation to secure oil for the energy challenged future and to make obscene profits for energy and war services corporations.
The recruiters also need to be personally responsible and disobey their orders, since swindling more underprivileged youth into joining for the promise of future benefits simply amounts to a bribe. The recruiters and their targets are both in the same economic handcuffs and they see their reward down the road after they have successfully completed their tour of duty. This amounts to blackmail.
The Viet Nam war was ended ultimately by the draft since civilians protested, refused and saw their sons bodies on the evening news.
Yes the media is the biggest part of the puzzle, but they will only be pulled into the story when the soldiers begin to take it on their own shoulders not to participate. When that happens it will be on the evening new, and America will slowly awaken form its hypnotic slumber.
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» It's the soldier's RESPONSIBILITY not to follow illegal orders.
Posted by: robbie.seal
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Posted by: hurricane hugo on May 30, 2008 6:02 PM
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jdfu!
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Posted by: desidid on May 30, 2008 6:47 PM
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» Terrific!
Posted by: countingdaisies
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on May 30, 2008 6:49 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hartford, Connecticut has a population of 124,387.
Of those, 8.3% are children under 5, 30.1% are children under 18, and 9.5% are senior citizens above the age of 65.
This reduces the volunteer pool down to 59581 potential volunteers.
Of those half probably don't even vote and could care less about the issue. This leaves us with 29790 people.
Of those half are probably Republican and would oppose this plan to decrease recruitment. This leaves us with 14895 people.
Of those Democrats probably only 1 in 10 would have a strong enough feeling about the war that they would be willing to volunteer a little bit of their time to help stop it. This leaves us with 1489 people.
Assuming the military recruiters office is open say 12 hours a day, from 8 am to 8 pm that means we would have 84 hours a week we need volunteers there.
Say we would need 2 people there at all times, just in case of a no show or something like that, we wouldn't want to leave the booth empty.
Say the average person signs up for a 4 hour shift, we would need 42 people to volunteer during the week to man the booth.
That brings us to roughly 168 people a month and roughly 2184 people a year.
With 2184 people needed to volunteer for 4 hour shifts a year and a pool of 1489 people that would be willing to volunteer their time, the average person would only need to volunteer twice a year.
This is so easily doable. All we need is organization.
We need to draw up schedules, write the literature, and manage storage of the table and brochures at the end of the day.
We are far more powerful than the government can possibly imagine.
We merely need to recognize it and act on it.
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» My point is that this Could Spread to Cover Every Recruiting Office
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
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Posted by: pdxstudent on May 30, 2008 9:13 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"And perhaps the great day will come when a people, distinguished by wars and victories and by the highest development of a military order and intelligence, and accustomed to make the heaviest sacrifices for these things, will exclaim of its own free will, 'We break the sword,' and will smash its entire military establishment down to its lowest foundations. Rendering oneself unarmed when one had been best-armed, out of a height of feeling---that is the means to real peace, which must always rest on peace of mind; whereas the so-called armed peace, as it now exists in all countries, is the absence of peace of mind. One trusts neither oneself nor one's neighbor and, half from hatred, half from fear, does not lay down arms. Rather perish than hate and fear, and twice rather perish than make oneself hated and feared---this must someday become the highest maxim for every single commonwealth too."
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» RE: The Means To Real Peace
Posted by: Dboy
» Rather Persih?
Posted by: robbie.seal
» You'll Have To Clarify...
Posted by: pdxstudent
» Read the quote
Posted by: robbie.seal
» RE: ead the quote
Posted by: pdxstudent
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Cowardly_lion on May 30, 2008 9:37 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Jeanne on May 30, 2008 10:25 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: smacktastic on May 31, 2008 7:36 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh PLEASE. That old saw about the poor stupid no-hoper underprivileged great unwashed signing up ... come ON!
I enlisted in the Air Force. I also had scholarships to great schools (Princeton, Brown) but I wanted to travel and see something different. Military service is a tradition in my family. My recruiter did not lie to me. Everybody in Basic Training knew what we were in for. During the first Gulf War we all volunteered for front-line jobs.
I did five years and left, but my spouse stayed in as an enlistee, and 20 years later we make the same salary - $70k per year. He and most of his co-workers have earned or are pursuing graduate degrees free of charge. Plus, he can retire right about now and we'll have health care for the rest of our lives.
I'm glad he and I made such a horribly misinformed choice, or we'd probably be working behind a fast food counter in the ghetto today.
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» RE: Oh please!
Posted by: terrymo
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Posted by: wake_up_now on Jun 1, 2008 3:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we stop the War Machine we will all be in the poor house. The Fact is, in the early 70's Nixon made a deal with OPEC (which consists of all the oil producing countries in the Middle East) to only sell oil in US Dollars. This created a high demand for the US Dollar which kept it valuable. Any country that wanted to buy oil needed US Dollars. For all these countries to obtain US Dollars they needed to sell us goods. To recieve these goods all the Government had to do is start up a printing press and make money. We printed money for next to nothing and recieved valuable goods in return. These countries in turn would buy oil from OPEC and then OPEC would invest these dollars in american business (The Stock Market / Banks / Real Estate / Etc.) This is called Petro Dollar Recycling. It all worked like a well oiled machine until the year 2000. That is when Saddam decided to hit us where it hurts and started selling his oil in Euros and exchanging all his US Dollar bank reserves into Euros. All of the sudden Tons of US dollars started comming back to America. That made the value of our dollar drop and the value of the Euro go up. Now our government had to come up with Tons of Euros in exchange. That is a big problem because America can't just print Euros. America has to provide goods to get Euros and that is much harder than just printing US Dollars. Also Big Business lost all the Petro Dollar Recycling Money. (Basically, money Big Business got to play with; money the Government got to play with; and even money us little guys got to play with.) That is why the stock market was strong, our military is strong, Gas was cheap, and stuff from china was so cheap.
Well, the governments solution was to go to war with Iraq, take over their banks, and swith their oil sales back to US Dollars. Of course they needed to make the Axis of Evil / Terror excuse to get the American people behind the effort. The U.S. Government was praying for 911 a year before it happened. There is proof of that. In reallity 911 was the perfect excuse they needed. And I think they helped it along. Yes, I belive they would help kill some of us to save their play money. People get killed for money all the time and our government is no different.
Anyway, I don't want to get off track. Now Iran has started selling its oil in Euros and that will need to be stopped. As their Tons of Dollars start coming back we are all feeling the affect. Gas is over $4.00 a gallon, prices at Walmart / Kmart are on the rise, house prices are falling, and the stock market is weaker. And it is going to get worse unless we expand our War Machine to Iran.
We all need to realize that we can vote Democrats into office, or Republicans into office, and the War Machine will continue. The excuse may change a little. With Republicans it's to fight the Axis of Evil. With Democrates we will be told the war is a fight for Humanity. When all along the war is to make sure oil is sold in U.S. Dollars. And the fact is, if we want to live the American lifestyle, we are going to have to support this War. And keep the recruting offices full of our young men and women.
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» RE: Saving our way of life
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Saving our way of life
Posted by: wake_up_now
» RE: Saving our way of life
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Saving our way of life
Posted by: wake_up_now
» RE: Saving our way of life
Posted by: nochicagoboys
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Dboy on Jun 1, 2008 9:09 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
-- Barack Obama on Iraq, July 27, 2004, Chicago Tribune
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Posted by: Ky Lake Dave on Jun 1, 2008 7:00 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: STOP RECRUITTING AND START DRAFTING!
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» As long as there are evil people
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: As long as there are evil people
Posted by: terrymo
» RE: As long as there are evil people
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: As long as there are evil people
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: As long as there are evil people
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» As long as there are evil people...
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: As long as there are evil people...
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: We have Nukes, We Don't Need a Standing Army
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
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Posted by: robbie.seal on Jun 2, 2008 9:02 AM
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» RE: Thank you for your sacrifice
Posted by: terrymo
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Posted by: mjones29384 on Jun 26, 2008 11:56 AM
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The argument against these kinds of wars is much simpler: they don't work. Bush spent a trillion dollars of tax payer's money on the war and has nothing to show for it other than an economy in shambles, broken foreign relationships, security scares at airports, and $4/gal prices at the pump. Bush is an abject failure, even by the most "conservative" standards.
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Posted by: NoPCZone on May 30, 2008 12:34 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Recruiters are not volunteer positions for the most part. Most recruiters are assigned the position, out under quotas and could have their careers ended if they do not produce. Otherwise, these young men and women are under great pressure and most try to honestly do what they have been assigned and honestly present recruits with an accurate picture. Some probably do not, but that is not the case most or all of the time.
When you protest, as you have a legitimate right as a citizen to do, I ask that you do it respectfully. As most of us cannot know what an individual recruiter does in the discharge of their duty, we should give them, individually, the benefit of the doubt that they are honorable members of our armed forces assigned to do a difficult and sometimes conflicting job.
If one knows of a dishonest recruiter they should be reported to the recruiting command, your Congressional delegation and, if necessary, the media. A dishonest recruiter dishonors the service they are a member of, the honorable tradition of service to our nation, the nation at large, the millions who have served and the young men and women willing to serve.
All I ask is that you conduct your protests in an orderly and respectful, but firm, manner. The young man or woman serving as a recruiter may be doing an honest job and only following orders- even possibly ones they do not desire.
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» Well said, with a clarification.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Well Said, with a Caveat
Posted by: 1oyate
» You're so confused. I feel sorry for you.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» A lot of us are confused and our government is the cause.
Posted by: EinMD
» Specifically...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Get Real
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: You're so confused. I feel sorry for you.
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: You're so confused. I feel sorry for you.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» And if you don't have any idea as to what a chain of command is?...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Fix it from the bottom up
Posted by: countingdaisies
» RE: Well Said, with a Caveat
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Well Said, with a Caveat
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Well Said, with a Caveat
Posted by: EinMD
» RE: Well Said, with a Caveat
Posted by: sirios
» RE: Well Said, with a Caveat
Posted by: dr_dredd
» Caveat this
Posted by: leafsong1
» "only following orders" = shittiest excuse for anything
Posted by: deborama
» RE: Buyer Beware!
Posted by: desidid
» hey JUST LIKE PIMPS DO TO THEIR 'Talent'... !
Posted by: BlueBerry PickN
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Mexitli on May 30, 2008 12:45 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Young people in Tijuana, MX are secretly being recruited in local bars by the U.S. Army, says Fernando Suarez del Solar, founder of The Aztec Warriors for Peace Project aka GuerreroAzteca.org.
Army Recruiters dressed in civilian clothes buy young people beer then encourage them to enlist in exchange for citizenship.
Fernando, father of Jesús Alberto Suárez del Solar Navarro, who was killed in Iraq, would like to see Tijuana, MX become a sanctuary city for conscientious objectors to the war in Iraq.
Recruitment of Tijuana, MX Youth by the U.S. Army Denounced
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Posted by: carbon-based on May 30, 2008 2:54 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Moving our elected politicians to do what we want them to do re protests, hitting their pockets etc, will have a greater effect. Boycott an industry that is supporting politicians that do not work to end the war!
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» RE: Hit the $$$$
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Hit the $$$$
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Hit the $$$$
Posted by: nochicagoboys
Comments are closed-
Posted by: blogbooks on May 30, 2008 3:27 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are a few factors in play that make them enlist anyway. First, young men typically have more testosterone than good sense. Second, they are willing to "roll the dice" and see what happens.
Sometimes when your choices in life are confined to working at Burger King or taking your chances in the military, you just take your chances. Most young people that join the military know they could end up dead or injured but they hope they won't and sign up anyway.
You can't stop recruitment as long as the wages, bonuses, and benefits are better than what anyone in the bottom 20% of our economic strata could hope to achieve in the civilian market before the age of 35.
However, as a veteran (OEF/OIF, non-combat) I will say that the military sucks whether you're getting shot at or not.
Still, the new G.I. Bill is going to be a huge recruitment boon for the military and I don't think they're going to have any problem finding warm bodies any time soon because of it.
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» RE: Enlistment
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: enlistment not the only option
Posted by: Jelfring
» RE: nlistment
Posted by: EinMD
» Sure, that's a part of it
Posted by: blogbooks
» Excuses
Posted by: EinMD
» Life's tough, wear a helmet
Posted by: blogbooks
» RE: Life's tough, wear a helmet
Posted by: EinMD
» You're an enraged young person with no capacity for rational thought
Posted by: blogbooks
» NO, the military runs numbers & hopes you blow your head off
Posted by: BlueBerry PickN
» Shove your helmet
Posted by: countingdaisies
» Have you ever been to a McDonalds?
Posted by: Ayla87
» Parents and family can have influence
Posted by: countingdaisies
Comments are closed-
Posted by: WaldoMaui on May 30, 2008 3:33 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As Americans, not even in our prayers are we humble, for we see ourselves as the anointed ones, the rightful occupants of our pre-eminent “shining city on a hill.” We suppose that we have forged the most advanced civilization in history.
So how do we as a nation react when faced with a serious challenge? From our lofty perch, what is the most highly evolved response we manage to summon? As a result of engaging all of our intellect and experience and insight, what course of action do we choose to best serve our highest ideals and aspirations?
We send our children out into the streets to kill other people’s children.
Forgive me if I conclude that this is a day not to puff out our chests in national pride, but rather, a day to mournfully acknowledge our grotesque lack of imagination in sending our youth to war.
David L. Wilson
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» RE: What We Must Acknowledge on Memorial Day
Posted by: sirios
» RE: What We Must Acknowledge on Memorial Day......what we see.
Posted by: Captainmagic
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Posted by: sheena2u on May 30, 2008 3:45 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Parents were not explained the process beforehand, but the process required parents to send in "Opt Out" forms every semester for each student that had reached the age of 18. Otherwise, the student's were fair game for the recruiters. This also included severely disabled students. An "Opt Out" form is required every semester, and there is a small window of time in which to get it in. If it is not received, every single branch of the services is at liberty to contact the student by phone and mail to try to get them to join the service.
The recruiters are just doing their job. It is the Bush White House that has been responsible for this siege of our innocent students. They could not bring the draft back since it had been so unpopular in the Vietnam war, so they used every possible method of targeting the young and immature, and in keeping in existing soldiers in endlessly recurring tours of duty. Some of the results is that families have disintegrated under the strain, and soldiers have committed suicide at unprecedented rates.
While we face the horrors of war I want everyone to remember that it was the Bush adminstration's failed policies that brought us here.
There were never any Weapons of Mass Destruction. We had no right to invade and attack a sovereign country that had not attacked us, and based on what they might have or what they might think or do if they had the ability. Pre-emptive war is immoral and illegal.
War is always a last, and not a first, resort.
The Bush administration wanted to attack Iraq. There was no relation between Bin Laden and Saddam. There was no problem in Iraq with insurgency and terrorists until we occupied Iraq. We are less safe, thousands of brave soldiers have lost their lives unnecessarily, or are now forced to live with severe disabilities, and thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians have been displaced because of this preciptious, unwise, and badly managed war.
Scott McClellan has written an expose of the Bush administration, and confirmed what most of us have suspected or known all along.
Now we must bring our soldiers home. We must take better care of our veterans. We must be sure the get the best benefits when they get home. No other choice is acceptable. We must support the families. We must build America up again. And we must vote for change in November.
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Posted by: Moonray on May 30, 2008 3:57 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Confronting military recruiters is a waste of time and very, very counterproductive. The community IMMEDIATELY turns against the protesters and any confrontation gives pro-war jugheads an opportunity to thump their chests on local and national television.
Contrary to current popular belief, the anti-war protests of the 1960s were almost completely ineffective in stopping the war, and indeed had just the opposite effect. It wasn't until the Watergate scandal of the early '70s resulted in big changes in Congress that the plug was finally pulled on the Vietnam debacle.
Instead of confronting recruiters, anti-war forces should emphasize their own patriotism and military connections, then politely point out the many flaws in the pro-war policies. Lord knows there are plenty to point out. And, by all means, avoid appearing loud, arrogant, flamboyant or otherwise different from other folks.
I know whereof I speak. As an Army enlisted man in uniform, I was at the Pentagon during a mass protest in 1967 and served in Vietnam the next year.
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» Excellent points!
Posted by: SufiLizard
» Stop aiding and abetting the enemy...boycott right-wing businesses
Posted by: CulturalMutilation
» CulturalMutilation you are worse than right wing and a bigot to boot.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Stop aiding and abetting the enemy...boycott right-wing businesses
Posted by: carbon-based
» Guitar Center is owned by Bain Capital LLC. Romney was a only a partner. So what?
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Wrong wrong....., is wrong
Posted by: grkjr
» RE: Wrong wrong....., is wrong
Posted by: desidid
» RE: Wrong, wrong, wrong -- again! (Not true!)
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Even nonviolent protests will appear unpatriotic on TV
Posted by: Moonray
» RE: ven nonviolent protests will appear unpatriotic on TV
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» It didn't work with Vietnam and isn't working now
Posted by: Moonray
» My history may be rusty
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: My history may be rusty
Posted by: aonghus36
» Read the history; Ike/Nixon laid groundwork for Vietnam
Posted by: Moonray
» RE: Wrong, wrong, wrong -- again!
Posted by: aonghus36
» If MSM ignores demonstrations, why hold them?
Posted by: Moonray
» RE: Wrong, wrong, wrong -- again!
Posted by: leafsong1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on May 30, 2008 4:11 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: When parents in Middle America can go out of their way to fight teaching evolution in schools,
Posted by: desidid
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Posted by: Purple Girl on May 30, 2008 4:14 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have no desire to undercut our military Readiness, but I do Not want any more sent over to the M.E. Granted we must Educate our 'enlistment' age citizens regarding the Criminality of this War. But that must be done from the Top. I have been very concerned there has been a Concerted effort to destroy OUR Armed Services so tha tthe Private Profiteer Mercenaries can be incorporated as a form of OUR Defense.Who do they pledge their allegeince Too- the Top Bidder? so I would prefer only those who have Patriotic Blood coursing through their veins to Defend this Country and US.
Military Service is not the Problem, It is solely a matter of the 'mission' and as far as I'm concerned this One is for the Benefit of ou=nly the saudis/UAE and their Oil Industry Minions- A land Grab.This Is NOT what OUR Military is to be used For- Let the 'royals' & Inc's stop sucking off US to defend THEIR inteerests and Global Stratedgies, DO NOT ALLOW THEM TO HIDE BEHIND US- using our reputation, our Treasures and OUR KIDS BLOOD!
In Fact I'd like to see more Recruiters to encourage Everyone to enlist so that WE may Conquer Those who are Domestic Enemies hiding in our Gov't and Industry. I want Our 'Kids' nad Our 'toys' to come home and start arresting the entire Executive Branch, Majority in both Houses of Congress, about 3/4 of SCOTUS ,along with the 'top Criminals' in the Oil, Auto, Banking and 'Investment' Industry.it is time to initiate the 'Protect & Defend the Constitution and the Citizens From Domestic enemies' part of their Mission Statement
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» spoken like the foul jewish princess you are
Posted by: CulturalMutilation
» cultural mutilation - read purple girl's post again...
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» read it again?
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» RE: cultural mutilation - read purple girl's post again...
Posted by: countingdaisies
» ZOG? Spoken like a true neo-nazi illiterate.
Posted by: yellow
» Interpreter necessary
Posted by: countingdaisies
» Like most ignorant bigots, Cultural Mutilation has all his facts wrong as well. He is clueless.
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Kahomono on May 30, 2008 4:24 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Stop the imperialist attitude of the government, stop the military adventurism, stop the waste of our military power on non-threats to our national security. THOSE are credible goals. Trying to cut off the supply of personnel? The recruitment strategies are many and varied; old folks like me remember a Vietnam-era recruitment strategy called "the draft."
They will get their bodies. We need to control what they do with them.
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» Let them draft; let them hire mercenaries
Posted by: leafsong1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: SufiLizard on May 30, 2008 4:36 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A recruiter got him to sign up ON his 18th birthday, even though he was just starting his Junior year of high school.
After consulting with church members and one of our pastors he came to realize the mistake he had made, but the military doesn't want to get their hooks out of him.
Fortunately he has the support of not only our congregation, but there are a lot of resources in our denomination to help him. But his future is still quite uncertain.
I'd like to see a discussion of specific actions a small group could take to help get recruiters out of our schools.
Or barring that, send recruiters from groups like Christian Peacemaker Teams and other, secular peace groups into the schools to recruit right along-side the military recruiters.
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» Hey, READ THIS and help the kid
Posted by: blogbooks
» RE: Hey, READ THIS and help the kid (Great resource!)
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» For my nephew it was too late for this out, but . . .
Posted by: countingdaisies
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ZombyWoof on May 30, 2008 4:48 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Only if they think they need to fight guerilla warfare against Americans
Posted by: blogbooks
» BS ALERT!!!
Posted by: robbie.seal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: KAEL on May 30, 2008 4:49 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If there were a mass disinformation campaign going on in recruiting offices, we would hear about it or have seen a class action suit. The truth is that the vast majority of the military likes the institution they serve as well as the job they do, even if they do not support this war.
The left's pandering about the military is getting over the top - again. Most members did not enlist as an alternative to McDonalds, but as an alternative to all the jobs that were available at the time they were making a job or career choice - the same way every American chooses a job. And most members do not feel they were lied to. Yes, life after the first day on any job is not what one fantacized, but that awakening is no different for a CEO, bank teller or a firefighter.
Soldiers are just like other Americans, some left, some right, but most in the middle and doing a job they like and chose eyes wide open.
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» RE: Freedom to Fight for our Country
Posted by: grkjr
» RE: Freedom to Fight for our Country
Posted by: EinMD
» Brainwashed . . .
Posted by: countingdaisies
» RE: Freedom to Fight for our Country
Posted by: leafsong1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: redbird30328 on May 30, 2008 5:03 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» that AND supporting left-wing "American-Owned" businesses
Posted by: CulturalMutilation
» What's a left wing business. Sounds like more absurdity.
Posted by: yellow
» Don't eat the yellow snow... www.Buyblue.org
Posted by: CulturalMutilation
» Namecalling only shows what an uneducated moron you really are, CM
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Posted by: RedFoxOne on May 30, 2008 5:27 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
JT
Ultimate Anonymity
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Posted by: brer on May 30, 2008 5:29 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This February, he met a Navy recruiter who told him he could become a Navy Seal and talked him into signing up.
The kid asked if there would be a problem with his having tried to commit suicide, and the recruiter told him not to tell anyone about it.
The recruiter also told him not to cut his hair, because it was covering some scars from a motorcycle accident he'd had the year before.
This is the kind of recruiting that's being done!
This is the kind of kid we are recruiting. It's no wonder that the suicide rate is so high if they are recruiting sucidal kids to begin with.
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» Navy recruiters are VERY aggressive
Posted by: blogbooks
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Posted by: Farasien on May 30, 2008 5:56 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After THAT, setp 2... attacking the monetary support for the war effort...
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» One Proud Dipshit
Posted by: robbie.seal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: nomoreblinders on May 30, 2008 6:08 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I had 4 dollars 37 cent worth of pennies in a plastic bag when I joined the military
Posted by: blogbooks
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sausage on May 30, 2008 6:50 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Besides an aging white person you're looking at one of the causes for the underhanded, deceptive recruiting practices our All Volunteer Force uses to lure young men and women whose "...choices in life are confined to working at Burger King or taking your chances in the military..."(blogbooks).
Remember how all you college educated, neo-Democrats of draft age, especially you 1-A guys argued, between hits on the bong, in dorm bull sessions, "End the draft now! Let those who want to be there, be there!"
Remember how you cheered in 1969 when the architect of our current rudderless economy and godfather to our anti-government politicians and god-grandfather to today's College Republican chickenhawks, Milton J. Friedman, flummoxed General William Westmoreland over whether volunteer recruits were mercenaries and draftees "slaves" or not during Gates Commission hearings. Oh, haw, haw, haw--lookit how that whimpy lookin' economist jes' made a jackass outta that dumbass general!!!
If you don't think that crappy hourly wage McDonalds, Wal Mart and the meat-packing industry gets away paying their employees, guess again. If civilian employers paid as well with as many benefits as does the U.S. military do you think Jessica Lynch or Lynndie England or millions of other boys and girls from impoverished areas of the country flock to the recruiting station?
And the irony of the All Volunteer Force, lost on libertarians of every stripe, including the late Friedman, is, the U.S. military is nothing but a big socialist program all on the taxpayers' dime!
So remember, aging hippies, it was you who wanted an end to the draft and its your grandchildren who are paying the consequences.
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» Conservatives and War Minded Presidents Caused This Mess!
Posted by: sofla100
» So naive. Sorry but somebody voted for those assholes.
Posted by: sausage
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Axiom69 on May 30, 2008 7:17 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: If you succeed...
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: If you succeed...
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: If you succeed...
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: If we succeeded we the people would gain even more power back
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» RE: If you succeed.. [Returning to the draft would be a very good option.
Posted by: Squarehead
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Posted by: grkjr on May 30, 2008 8:15 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: sofla100 on May 30, 2008 8:49 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Yep. The military isn't a bad deal as long as you don't get shot/poisoned/blow up.
Posted by: blogbooks
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Col. Jackleg on May 30, 2008 9:18 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: emopaul on May 30, 2008 9:29 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.leavemychildalone.org/
and this film:
http://tinyurl.com/euofl
or at this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75Uog_7WrLk
It's hard to fathom how many lives have been ruined by this insane war.
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» And the kids with no parents or parents that don't care?
Posted by: blogbooks
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Posted by: sirios on May 30, 2008 9:33 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: stop fueling!
Posted by: isnamthere
Comments are closed-
Posted by: terrymo on May 30, 2008 9:36 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let me tell you about two of them.
Our nephew, Tim, worked long and hard to earn an appointment to West Point. He grew up so much at the Point and learned about discipline and honor. He graduated and went on to helicopter flight school and was quickly promoted to Captain. And he remained the handsome, intelligent, goofy young man he always was. He talked over email to our daughter in March of 2006 and told her that he was proud of his service and of the men and women he was serving with and that his only regret would be if he was not around to see his baby girl grow up.
His helicopter was shot down on April 1, 2006 and he was killed.
Our son-in-law, Ben, met our daughter the very day Tim was killed. He was on leave from his first tour in Iraq. He joined the military after 9/11, not because he had nowhere else to go but because he felt compelled to serve. He was an E5 when Michelle met him and was on his way to his E6 when he deployed for the second time in December 2007, 7 months after they married. He believed strongly in God, his family, his wife, himself and Army discipline.
He was killed on December 26, 2007, an event that was reported and brutally debated in this very forum.
Neither of these young men were lured by an underhanded recruiter nor pushed by economic or educational circumstances. They went with a sense of duty and a belief that they were doing something special for their country.
I find it difficult now to hear young people their age whine and complain and wallow in self-indulgence, when they have done nothing to be of service to anyone.
Do not dishonor the majority of those in the military by tarring all with the same brush.
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» RE: Let me tell you a different story
Posted by: Axiom69
» Under Bush, The American Military No Longer Deserves the Patriotism and Sacrifice of Our Young
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Under Bush, The American Military No Longer Deserves the Patriotism and Sacrifice of Our Young
Posted by: Captainmagic
» RE: Under Bush, The American Military No Longer Deserves the Patriotism and Sacrifice of Our Young
Posted by: grkjr
» RE: Let me tell you a different story
Posted by: Smartcookie
» Well, they get a Darwin award. They self selected themselves for extinction.
Posted by: blogbooks
» You are a sad commentary
Posted by: robbie.seal
» Is honorably dead different than plain dead?
Posted by: countingdaisies
» RE: Is honorably dead different than plain dead?
Posted by: terrymo
» Some of us will not forget
Posted by: robbie.seal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: MonkeyDaddy on May 30, 2008 9:43 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I call B.S. on that
Posted by: blogbooks
» Stupid monkey...
Posted by: robbie.seal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jeffrey7 on May 30, 2008 9:52 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
of a 'Higher education'. We can't make the legacy of our times to be the idea that if you disagree with someone it's OK to have them wacked. We must teach the truth about how the media controls the way we think by giving a slant to stories so your mind is guided to the ideals they wish us to support. We must teach them to think for themselves and turn off the TV. We must teach the power of Boycott and Non-support of bad policies and corperate greed,the real New World order. We must teach that it's corperations and not the politicians that run the country,decide when and where wars are fought and which class of people will do the dying. We must teach the truth that the power of Love must overcome the love of power
if we are to become a truly advanced society.
Draft Jeffrey7 for Prez '08
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Posted by: linsayb on May 30, 2008 10:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, I do not agree with banning recruiters. I think that we should push for transparency in military recruiting, but complete abolition is not only unlikely but potentially dangerous. Unfortunately, our current society has created a socio-economic hierarchy that is composed of a class of individuals who have few choices in life, and for many, the military offers a way for them to establish financial security, provide health care for their families (the only universal health are in the United States) and even obtain a college education.
I was a graduate of the College of William and Mary, served as Student Body President and was the director of numerous progressive organizations. I came out of college unable to find a job, with student loans and no health insurance. I did my research and determined that the military was a good way for me to solve many of these problems and that the only job I would accept in the Army was that of a Public Affairs specialist as I knew this would improve my chances of pursuing a career in journalism. Now that I am out of the military, my service has granted me Veterans Affairs health care (despite the problems, at least I have something) for the rest of my life, the GI Bill which I will be using when I begin graduate studies in journalism at U.C. Berkeley in the fall (hopefully Sen. Webb's improved GI Bill will be implemented quickly), my admission to each the six graduate programs I applied for was in part due to the experiences I had in the military.
While in the Army I dedicated my time to helping fellow soldiers understand the military bureaucracy and I now do the same for veterans in understanding the VA. I can say with certainty that I would not be where I am now were it not for the military and I know the are countless others who feel the same.
I am a strong proponent of mandatory government service, military or otherwise, patterned after the programs in countries such as Switzerland and Germany. If the military was comprised of individuals from all walks of life there would be greater transparency and perhaps no need for recruiters at all.
However, this will most likely never happen. That is why it is the responsibility of people, especially veterans, to press for transparency in recruiting, but also press to have ROTC programs reinstated in the several Ivy League schools who dropped them. If you want to ensure a fair and just military, and thus eliminate the possibility of political wars, then you need to pull all Americans together and encourage them to serve their part. We need to reestablish the direct connection between governing officials and those in the military that was so common in WWI and WWII.
I recommend that everyone pick up a copy of the book "AWOL: The Unexcused Absence of America's Upper Classes from Military Service-and How it Hurts Our Country" by Kathy Roth-Douquet and Frank Schaeffer. It will make you think.
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» RE:banning recruiters?
Posted by: Dboy
» You're what's known as an REMF.....
Posted by: Beepath
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ayla87 on May 30, 2008 10:46 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So I'll tell you what: I officially sign the papers in three weeks (provided everything goes well at MEPS). Then I head to Boot Camp in early August. If any of you can offer me a job in Ct for $25k/yr with health insurence, I'll tell my recruiter to take his contract, and his sign on bonus and shove it. Thats all I'm looking for. I don't think thats unreasonable to ask given all my work experience (5+ years, and I'm only 20), education and skills.
If not, then you're the ones who need to shove it. Because the military is offering me a hell of alot more than your bloated government has in my entire life.
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» Correction
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: The recruiters aren't the problem
Posted by: Dboy
» I have skills
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: I have skills
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Young man!?
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: Young man!?
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Only one problem...
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: Only one problem...
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Only one problem...
Posted by: Ayla87
» The Biggest Thing Bloating The Government
Posted by: pdxstudent
» Any job you are qualfied for can be done by an illegal
Posted by: blogbooks
» RE: Any job you are qualfied for can be done by an illegal
Posted by: Dboy
» RE: Any job you are qualfied for can be done by an illegal
Posted by: Ayla87
» My advice is go Air Force.
Posted by: blogbooks
» Oh, one more thing.
Posted by: blogbooks
» Sorry, I don't want to sound like I'm recruiting in an anti-recruitment article's comments
Posted by: blogbooks
» RE: Any job you are qualfied for can be done by an illegal
Posted by: Squarehead
» RE: Any job you are qualfied for can be done by an illegal
Posted by: Ayla87
» The military doesn't always work out how you think
Posted by: blogbooks
» You don't just pull specialized skills out of thin air
Posted by: blogbooks
» There is so much more to offer
Posted by: robbie.seal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: undrgrndgirl on May 30, 2008 11:42 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
when my daughter was a senior in high school she used to get phone calls from the local recruiter ...i don't know what she ever said to him, but one evening i answered the phone [just after bush's illegal invasion of iraq] - he asked for her as if he were a close friend...he had a very deep voice and sounded far more mature than her friends, so i asked who he was and why he was calling. he said "i'm "nancy's" recruiter" - my response was "we don't have a recruiter - we are pacifists in this home do not call here again or i will report it as harassment" and hung up...to my knowledge he never called again.
when the recruiter calls: JUST SAY NO!
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» RE: one of the disturbing things about recruitment...
Posted by: Dboy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Axiom69 on May 30, 2008 11:55 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is the soldier, not the reporter,
who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet,
who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer,
who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier, not the lawyer,
who has given us the right to a fair trial.
It is the soldier,
who salutes the flag,
who serves under the flag,
and whose coffin is draped by the flag,
who allows the protester to burn the flag.
By Father Dennis Edward O'Brien, USMC
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» Soldiers are pawns
Posted by: frantaylor
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: frantaylor
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: frantaylor
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: frantaylor
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: frantaylor
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: frantaylor
» RE: Who's the chess master?
Posted by: Ayla87
» And if you believe that...
Posted by: dbarber
» RE: And if you believe that...
Posted by: EncinoM
» Hey! Wake up. This world isn't all sunshine and rainbows kid.
Posted by: blogbooks
» You can romanticize it all you want.
Posted by: EinMD
» Soldiers are pawns to deploy as a tool of corporatism gone wild
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Couldn't resist this....at your gate
Posted by: Captainmagic
» The message this conveys is absolutely correct
Posted by: blogbooks
» RE: The message this conveys is absolutely correct
Posted by: sirios
» Sorry, but Chairman Mao disagrees
Posted by: blogbooks
» RE: Couldn't resist this.
Posted by: sirios
» This is why chaplains should be axed from military
Posted by: Moonray
» What About the Free Market?
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Couldn't resist this.
Posted by: Dboy
» Another True Belivin' God Nazi!
Posted by: Beepath
» RE: Couldn't resist this.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Couldn't resist this [who, unwilling to stand out, executed the men,
Posted by: Squarehead
» Me either
Posted by: robbie.seal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sofla100 on May 30, 2008 1:06 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: willymack on May 30, 2008 1:37 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Can you say...
Posted by: robbie.seal
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Posted by: frantaylor on May 30, 2008 2:06 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't have to bother with an attribution for this quote.
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Posted by: Erik1968 on May 30, 2008 2:47 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It purports to be a social network of moms helping each other decide whether their kids should joing the Navy.
It is actually 100% recruiter propoganda bullshit.
Can't someone stop this? Please?
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» RE: The horror that is NAVYFORMOMS.COM
Posted by: Dboy
» Well, that whole "freedom of the press" and "freedom of expression"...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
Comments are closed-
Posted by: badkitty on May 30, 2008 3:03 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on May 30, 2008 4:33 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My argument would be to get the bastards out of power, and thereby sate your desire to despise folks in uniform by letting them come home and quit eating babies, or whatever you fantasize that military members do for fun and profit.
Most of you are hopeless, however, and reasoning fails.
So does civics. Go back to sixth grade.
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» First, you have to get the attention of those in power.
Posted by: countingdaisies
» Indeed. In what is called a "volunteer force"...
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: I note that if half the vitriol directed at military members were put to good use...
Posted by: Dboy
» Fail.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» Hoorah!!!
Posted by: robbie.seal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Meow_phit_phit on May 30, 2008 4:42 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Michaelhetz on May 30, 2008 5:11 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My point is that I would recommend any soldier now in the service to simply stop following orders on moral grounds. The Army Field Manual states that it's the soldier's RESPONSIBILITY not to follow illegal orders. This war is based on lies about defense of freedom and security from terrorists. it is really a corporate war of occupation to secure oil for the energy challenged future and to make obscene profits for energy and war services corporations.
The recruiters also need to be personally responsible and disobey their orders, since swindling more underprivileged youth into joining for the promise of future benefits simply amounts to a bribe. The recruiters and their targets are both in the same economic handcuffs and they see their reward down the road after they have successfully completed their tour of duty. This amounts to blackmail.
The Viet Nam war was ended ultimately by the draft since civilians protested, refused and saw their sons bodies on the evening news.
Yes the media is the biggest part of the puzzle, but they will only be pulled into the story when the soldiers begin to take it on their own shoulders not to participate. When that happens it will be on the evening new, and America will slowly awaken form its hypnotic slumber.
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» It's the soldier's RESPONSIBILITY not to follow illegal orders.
Posted by: robbie.seal
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hurricane hugo on May 30, 2008 6:02 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
jdfu!
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Posted by: desidid on May 30, 2008 6:47 PM
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» Terrific!
Posted by: countingdaisies
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on May 30, 2008 6:49 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hartford, Connecticut has a population of 124,387.
Of those, 8.3% are children under 5, 30.1% are children under 18, and 9.5% are senior citizens above the age of 65.
This reduces the volunteer pool down to 59581 potential volunteers.
Of those half probably don't even vote and could care less about the issue. This leaves us with 29790 people.
Of those half are probably Republican and would oppose this plan to decrease recruitment. This leaves us with 14895 people.
Of those Democrats probably only 1 in 10 would have a strong enough feeling about the war that they would be willing to volunteer a little bit of their time to help stop it. This leaves us with 1489 people.
Assuming the military recruiters office is open say 12 hours a day, from 8 am to 8 pm that means we would have 84 hours a week we need volunteers there.
Say we would need 2 people there at all times, just in case of a no show or something like that, we wouldn't want to leave the booth empty.
Say the average person signs up for a 4 hour shift, we would need 42 people to volunteer during the week to man the booth.
That brings us to roughly 168 people a month and roughly 2184 people a year.
With 2184 people needed to volunteer for 4 hour shifts a year and a pool of 1489 people that would be willing to volunteer their time, the average person would only need to volunteer twice a year.
This is so easily doable. All we need is organization.
We need to draw up schedules, write the literature, and manage storage of the table and brochures at the end of the day.
We are far more powerful than the government can possibly imagine.
We merely need to recognize it and act on it.
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» My point is that this Could Spread to Cover Every Recruiting Office
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pdxstudent on May 30, 2008 9:13 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"And perhaps the great day will come when a people, distinguished by wars and victories and by the highest development of a military order and intelligence, and accustomed to make the heaviest sacrifices for these things, will exclaim of its own free will, 'We break the sword,' and will smash its entire military establishment down to its lowest foundations. Rendering oneself unarmed when one had been best-armed, out of a height of feeling---that is the means to real peace, which must always rest on peace of mind; whereas the so-called armed peace, as it now exists in all countries, is the absence of peace of mind. One trusts neither oneself nor one's neighbor and, half from hatred, half from fear, does not lay down arms. Rather perish than hate and fear, and twice rather perish than make oneself hated and feared---this must someday become the highest maxim for every single commonwealth too."
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» RE: The Means To Real Peace
Posted by: Dboy
» Rather Persih?
Posted by: robbie.seal
» You'll Have To Clarify...
Posted by: pdxstudent
» Read the quote
Posted by: robbie.seal
» RE: ead the quote
Posted by: pdxstudent
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Cowardly_lion on May 30, 2008 9:37 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Jeanne on May 30, 2008 10:25 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: smacktastic on May 31, 2008 7:36 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh PLEASE. That old saw about the poor stupid no-hoper underprivileged great unwashed signing up ... come ON!
I enlisted in the Air Force. I also had scholarships to great schools (Princeton, Brown) but I wanted to travel and see something different. Military service is a tradition in my family. My recruiter did not lie to me. Everybody in Basic Training knew what we were in for. During the first Gulf War we all volunteered for front-line jobs.
I did five years and left, but my spouse stayed in as an enlistee, and 20 years later we make the same salary - $70k per year. He and most of his co-workers have earned or are pursuing graduate degrees free of charge. Plus, he can retire right about now and we'll have health care for the rest of our lives.
I'm glad he and I made such a horribly misinformed choice, or we'd probably be working behind a fast food counter in the ghetto today.
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» RE: Oh please!
Posted by: terrymo
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Posted by: wake_up_now on Jun 1, 2008 3:12 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we stop the War Machine we will all be in the poor house. The Fact is, in the early 70's Nixon made a deal with OPEC (which consists of all the oil producing countries in the Middle East) to only sell oil in US Dollars. This created a high demand for the US Dollar which kept it valuable. Any country that wanted to buy oil needed US Dollars. For all these countries to obtain US Dollars they needed to sell us goods. To recieve these goods all the Government had to do is start up a printing press and make money. We printed money for next to nothing and recieved valuable goods in return. These countries in turn would buy oil from OPEC and then OPEC would invest these dollars in american business (The Stock Market / Banks / Real Estate / Etc.) This is called Petro Dollar Recycling. It all worked like a well oiled machine until the year 2000. That is when Saddam decided to hit us where it hurts and started selling his oil in Euros and exchanging all his US Dollar bank reserves into Euros. All of the sudden Tons of US dollars started comming back to America. That made the value of our dollar drop and the value of the Euro go up. Now our government had to come up with Tons of Euros in exchange. That is a big problem because America can't just print Euros. America has to provide goods to get Euros and that is much harder than just printing US Dollars. Also Big Business lost all the Petro Dollar Recycling Money. (Basically, money Big Business got to play with; money the Government got to play with; and even money us little guys got to play with.) That is why the stock market was strong, our military is strong, Gas was cheap, and stuff from china was so cheap.
Well, the governments solution was to go to war with Iraq, take over their banks, and swith their oil sales back to US Dollars. Of course they needed to make the Axis of Evil / Terror excuse to get the American people behind the effort. The U.S. Government was praying for 911 a year before it happened. There is proof of that. In reallity 911 was the perfect excuse they needed. And I think they helped it along. Yes, I belive they would help kill some of us to save their play money. People get killed for money all the time and our government is no different.
Anyway, I don't want to get off track. Now Iran has started selling its oil in Euros and that will need to be stopped. As their Tons of Dollars start coming back we are all feeling the affect. Gas is over $4.00 a gallon, prices at Walmart / Kmart are on the rise, house prices are falling, and the stock market is weaker. And it is going to get worse unless we expand our War Machine to Iran.
We all need to realize that we can vote Democrats into office, or Republicans into office, and the War Machine will continue. The excuse may change a little. With Republicans it's to fight the Axis of Evil. With Democrates we will be told the war is a fight for Humanity. When all along the war is to make sure oil is sold in U.S. Dollars. And the fact is, if we want to live the American lifestyle, we are going to have to support this War. And keep the recruting offices full of our young men and women.
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» RE: Saving our way of life
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Saving our way of life
Posted by: wake_up_now
» RE: Saving our way of life
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Saving our way of life
Posted by: wake_up_now
» RE: Saving our way of life
Posted by: nochicagoboys
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Dboy on Jun 1, 2008 9:09 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
-- Barack Obama on Iraq, July 27, 2004, Chicago Tribune
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Posted by: Ky Lake Dave on Jun 1, 2008 7:00 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: STOP RECRUITTING AND START DRAFTING!
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» As long as there are evil people
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: As long as there are evil people
Posted by: terrymo
» RE: As long as there are evil people
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: As long as there are evil people
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: As long as there are evil people
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» As long as there are evil people...
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: As long as there are evil people...
Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: We have Nukes, We Don't Need a Standing Army
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
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Posted by: robbie.seal on Jun 2, 2008 9:02 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Thank you for your sacrifice
Posted by: terrymo
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Posted by: mjones29384 on Jun 26, 2008 11:56 AM
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The argument against these kinds of wars is much simpler: they don't work. Bush spent a trillion dollars of tax payer's money on the war and has nothing to show for it other than an economy in shambles, broken foreign relationships, security scares at airports, and $4/gal prices at the pump. Bush is an abject failure, even by the most "conservative" standards.
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