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The Mythology of Boomers Bankrupting Our Healthcare System

By Maggie Mahar, Health Beat. Posted April 10, 2008.


Facts and myths about how the United States' shrinking work force can pay for the health needs of its retirees.

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Berlin, March 13, 2008 -- By bringing 600 government and industry leaders together from more than 50 countries, the "World Health Care Congress Europe" (WHCCE) last month offered a splendid window on the wide variety of solutions that countries around the world are using as they struggle toward healthcare reform. One constant theme of the conference: "No One Thing Works."

When the three-day conference ended, it also was apparent that developed countries share many of the same problems. One that stands out is the fact that our populations are aging. Each country faces the same question: How will a shrinking work force possibly pay for the medicine their nations' retirees will need?

This brings me to Princeton economist Uwe Reinhardt's speech on the very first day of the conference. The only American to speak at WHCCE, Reinhardt focused on what he called "the folklore that people bring to the healthcare policy table." By nature an iconoclast, Reinhardt spent the next 20 minutes shattering some of the myths that have become part of the received wisdom among policymakers.

Begin with the notion that an aging population is a major factor driving healthcare inflation. In the United States this is accepted as a justification for why the nation's healthcare bill now equals more than $2 trillion -- and why we must expect it to climb ever higher.

Bad news is often more gripping than good news, and "if you want to be a popular speaker, you need to feed the paranoia of your audience," Reinhardt observed, pointing to the first slide of his PowerPoint presentation -- a chart illustrating just how quickly we can expect a horde of wrinkly boomers to take over the nation. Some stooped and shriveled, others proudly bloated, these former members of the Pepsi generation will be far more demanding, we're told, than the World War II veterans who preceded them.



A second slide is even more distressing, revealing that healthcare spending on patients over 75 averages about five times what we spend on 40-year-olds.




Yet the next graph that Reinhardt offers is a little puzzling.




Here, we see that the United States spends close to $7,000 per person on care -- even though its population is younger than the citizens of most developed countries, including Germany, Italy and Japan. (Because of a slightly higher fertility rate and an annual intake of 900,000 legal immigrants, the median age in the United States will rise in just three years to 39 over the next quarter-century, before the aging of America really starts to accelerate.) Meanwhile, Japan's population has been graying for some time, yet it spends only $1,000 per person. Could eating fish really make that much difference?

Reinhardt's next graph provides the explanation.




It turns out that when you look at estimates of growth in healthcare spending from 1990 to 2030, a senescent citizenry plays only a minor role in the projected jump from $585 billion (what we laid out for healthcare in 1990) to $14,026 billion (what analysts say we'll ante up in 2030, assuming we continue in our profligate ways).

What will be the biggest factor pushing the tab so much higher? Innovation. "The healthcare industry will continue developing new stuff for every age group," Reinhardt explains. Will that "new stuff" -- in the form of new drugs, devices, tests and procedures -- be worth it? Some of it will be. Some won't. Indeed as this article from Health Affairs reveals, over the past 12 years, rising spending on new medical technologies designed to address heart disease has not meant that more patients have survived. In many areas, we seem to have reached a point of diminishing returns. This also is true in the drug industry, where most new entries are "me too drugs" -- little different from products already on the market.

As I have often discussed, it is usually suppliers, not "patient demand," that drives healthcare inflation. The big ticket items are not the ones patients ask for; they're the ones companies advertise -- or that doctors and hospitals tell us we need. Few chronically ill patients ask to be hospitalized; not many cry out for dialysis, or the chance to spend thousands on cancer drugs; it's the rare person who asks if he can die in an ICU.

"In truth, the aging of the population is not a big problem," Reinhardt says. We really don't have to worry about greedy geezers suddenly clamoring for more care than we can afford. For one, they won't grow old all at once. They'll grow old just as they were born -- over a period of many years.




As Reinhardt mentioned earlier, a speaker who wants to grab his audience's attention may well scale a chart so that the demographic change looks like a wave that could wipe us out -- but the truth is much less sensational.




This doesn't mean that healthcare spending won't continue to levitate. "But what will drive costs in coming years, will come, not from the demand side of the equation, but from the supply side," says Reinhardt, repeating his theme. We can be certain that, without some significant reforms, suppliers will continue to invent new products for every age group, charging us more and selling us more -- using whatever methods it takes, from direct-to-consumer advertising to promises of near immortality and perpetual youth (just as 120 can be the new 80, 55 can be the new 35!) -- if we just swallow enough pills and replace enough body parts. (Of course remembering to swallow the pills could become a problem around 101, but that's another post).

Moreover, healthcare is labor intensive -- and by 2070, the number of U.S. workers per Medicare beneficiary will have dropped from 3.4 (in 2000) to 1.9. We are already experiencing a shortage of registered nurses -- which has helped raise wages. "Today a RN in California often makes more than a pediatrician," Reinhardt notes. (Though this says more about how niggardly we are when paying our pediatricians than how extravagant we are when paying nurses. See this post on physicians' pay).



Looking ahead, we'll probably need 50 percent more nurses than we employed in 2000. Given the laws of supply and demand, this all but ensures that nurses' wages will continue to rise.




So between the endless inventiveness of those who would overmedicate us to the unavoidable costs of a labor-intensive industry in an aging society, it is the supply side of medicine that is likely to push prices higher. This, says Reinhardt, is what policymakers should be thinking about.

But, he emphasizes, it doesn't have to happen. "If we begin to purge our healthcare system of Waste, Fraud and Abuse," we could save billions, Reinhardt notes. And when it comes to caring for the elderly, he suggests, "If we develop healthcare information technology, we could use it to monitor seniors in their homes -- instead of in nursing homes."

This is just one example of how the United States could bring costs down on the supply side. In addition, Medicare could use its clout to negotiate for lower drug and device prices -- just as other nations do. We could become more discriminating about what we buy from the healthcare industry's suppliers -- insisting on independent medical evidence that the new product or service really is worth the higher price. And patients could refuse to sign on for an elective procedure like knee replacement or prostate surgery unless they are given a chance to share in weighing risks against benefits. (See my post on "informed choice").

Finally, Sweden offers proof that an aging population doesn't have to spell financial disaster. The second day of the conference I interviewed Mona Heurgren, an economist at Sweden's National Board of Health and Welfare, and she pointed out that "while we have the oldest population in the EU, our healthcare costs haven't been rising. Over the last 15 years or so, the share of our citizens who are older has been growing, yet healthcare spending has stayed level at about 9 percent of GDP."

How has Sweden managed the buck the trend? For one, 95 percent of the country's hospitals and doctors use electronic medical records, which guarantee fewer errors and much greater efficiency. (As of three years ago, only 15 percent to 20 percent of U.S doctors' offices and 20 percent to 25 percent of U.S. hospitals had implemented electronic medical records, and adoption continues to move slowly as we try to decide who should pay for healthcare IT).

Moreover, in Sweden, preventive care is free. So no one is tempted to skip a needed Pap smear. Diabetics go for their eye checkups. In the United States, by contrast, many 50-something patients put off care that they can't afford, waiting until they reach the magic age of 65 and qualify for Medicare. At that point, the catch-up care they need can be very expensive and in some cases, their health has been permanently damaged.

Finally, in Sweden, long-term care is included in the national healthcare package, which is financed almost entirely through income taxes. Heurgren estimates that the share of a family's taxes that is used to fund healthcare equals roughly 10 percent of the average household's income. This is roughly what a median-income family in the United States lays out for health insurance -- if it is lucky enough to have an employer able and willing to pay slightly more than 50 percent of the family's healthcare premiums. (Comprehensive insurance for a family now fetches close to $13,000; if the employer pays $7,000, that leaves a family earning $60,000 with premiums of $6,000. Of course, in the United States that family also would face co-pays and deductibles, making healthcare more expensive, as a percentage of gross income, than in Sweden).

But as Heurgren puts it, with a modest shrug, "We're just a small country in the north." She is suggesting that Sweden is too small to serve as a model for larger nations. It is easier, in many ways, for Sweden to manage the challenges of 21st century medicine in a country where most people are middle-class and social solidarity is part of the culture.

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See more stories tagged with: health care, boomers, boomer generation, health costs, retirees and health

Maggie Mahar is a fellow at the Century Foundation and the author of "Money-Driven Medicine: The Real Reason Health Care Costs So Much" (Harper/Collins 2006).

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Great Article ... The Scare Tactics are Working!
Posted by: mmckinl on Apr 10, 2008 12:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yep, ... the scare tactics are working both on health care and Social Security. The corporate media are going crazy with the twin disasters of SSI and Medicare yet here we see that a solution for health care is very doable, if we get the corporations out of the way.

Spread the news ! But it won't go far with the tax cut crowd, the Health Care Industrial Complex and their media flunkies.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: TAX CUTS Posted by: sasquuatch55
Terrorist
Posted by: HeKnew on Apr 10, 2008 2:13 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Make the American Dream come true!

Direct Democracy

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Direct Democracy will never work Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
Surprised?
Posted by: talkville on Apr 10, 2008 2:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The "Asset" of the Nuclear Boomer Generation, accumulating a vast "Crop" over these last 60 years or so, now needs "Harvesting". The extraction of Equity of all that accumulation must now be gathered up for its Owners. Pensions, Retirement Plans, Insurance Coverages over the last 10 or so years (Clinton years especially!) have diminished or downright vanished ever so 'suddenly'. We Nuclear Boomers are no longer an "Asset"; we are a "Liability", albeit still with some Value to Extract. Overall, however, these new Owners and their Inheritors (remember: they are desperately wanting to repeal the Estate Tax!) would, even if secretly, even if un-consciously, rather see us die off, and as rapidly as possible. Attention needs to be directed now to Forming and Conforming the New Generation, making sure they, too, produce and generate as much profit and value as possible for the Next Harvest.

We always fall for it: this System does not operate for the benefit of "the people"; it operates for the benefit of its Owners. Witness a publication like AARP, chock-full of Insurance ads (Life, mainly and other useful profit generators). It is for THEM and their sister institutions we exist. We are sadly deluded if we think otherwise. The Owners got us, again. Puffing, chugging and tripping along, as it has since the founding, the System still works just as planned.

Being an older curmudgeon, I say to this System: Hail Caesar! We who are dying Do Not Salute you!

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Tom
Posted by: disc golf on Apr 10, 2008 4:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's a good article in that it explodes some popular myths about our rising health care costs. However, if we really want to reduce our health care costs dramatically, prevention is the way to go! Innovation is often useful, but only if such innovation comes AFTER necessary preventative measures have been followed.

There are many examples, so let me just cite one: Cancer reduction. We could reduce our risks of 12 different forms of cancer dramatically by adequate sunshine exposure! (http://tompetrie.net/id8.html) Such adequate sunshine exposure could reduce our risk approx. 50 percent for breast, colon and prostate cancer! Why wasn't THIS in the major newspapers--AND accurately reported? We could reduce our risks of all major illnesses--even so called "chronic illnesses"--by better diets, more exercise, etc.

Part of the problem is that it is profitable to treat "chronic illnesses" but it is not profitable to make folks disease-free.

When Americans start to realize that it's the "free" things (or almost free things) that help them remain out of the system, then our health care costs will decrease. What do I mean?

--Avoidance of vaccinations in most cases
--Avoidance of microwave cooking
--Avoidance of drugs as much as possible (this is, after all, the third or fourth leading cause of death in America!)
--Avoidance of fluoride/fluoridated water (http://tompetrie.net/id6.html)
--Avoidance of refined/processed foods, fast-foods, white sugar, white flour, factory farmed meats/poultry, soda, etc.
--Regular exercise--when possible
--Adequate sleep
--Adequate exposure to sunshine
--Minimal exposure to electromagnetic radiation
--High intake of organic fruits, vegetables, grains, nuts, seeds, etc.

The real problem with our current "health care system" is that diet and prevention are given cursory, (if any) attention. Only profitable interventions and treatments get any significant attention.

There is a reason my medical expenditures (excluding the costs of organic foods and running shoes), have been practically zero for the previous 35 years: prevention. Prevention is also what helps to keep my clients healthy and typically free from potentially dangerous Rx meds.

Tom, Nutritionist

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A great look at health care
Posted by: BBHOW on Apr 10, 2008 4:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article was great in exposing that an aging population is only one (a small one at that) part of the projected increases in health care spending. It also highlighted a major problem that will be a big driver of increased spending. Lack of access to and use of preventative care. Unfortunately through our cultural stoicism and our growing view that health care all of sorts is now elective we have come to a point where we forgo beneficial preventative care for suspect elective procedures and medications.

Another large area of concern is our shrinking workforce. As it was eloquently pointed out in the article, there are likely to be fewer and fewer health care professionals in the future, which will likely drive up inflation adjusted wages and hence health care spending. Much like our social security program needs to be administered with more care, so does whatever universal health care program that emerges(assuming there is one; fingers crossed). We must be sure to levy enough taxes to adequately fund the program so that when health care spending increases do come we have the ability to withstand and control the costs without cutting coverage, quality, or accessibility. We must not continue to pile financial burden on generations to come. I sincerely hope we are responsible as a society and do not allow this to happen.

-Brad, Actuary

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Health or wealth, choose wisely grasshopper
Posted by: solrev on Apr 10, 2008 5:33 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As long as the discussion is centered on health insurance in place of health care, deception will trump education. What the Surgeon General could do with a database from a single payer boggles my mind. Not only cost data would be available but data on illness, treatments, location, human demographics, the list goes on an on. All we need is some data entry operators entering that information into a cray computer when they process payment. I can just hear all the idiots screaming “you are spying on me”. I have a news flash for you, your individual data is worthless, but normal distribution data is priceless. Beam me up Scottie I have seen enough of the lost world.

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» RE: Exactly Posted by: solrev
The Funnel
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Apr 10, 2008 6:23 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems like nearly every serious problem in this country comes down to the same thing and that is the media. People are subjected to a barrage of propaganda in the guise of news and independent commentary. In itself this would not be so bad if people were aware of what it was, but that is not the case.

I am reminded of a story I heard years ago while the cold war was ongoing. An American was discussing the media with a Soviet citizen who noted that the Soviets were actually better off. His comment was that unlike the situation in America, Soviet citizens all knew that what they read in their newspapers were all lies.

Perhaps the hopeful trend in the U.S. is that we are all coming to understand that all the MSM is feeding us lies.

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» All heat, no light Posted by: realist
» RE: All heat, no light Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
kb
Posted by: kb on Apr 10, 2008 6:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One statistic tells it all: If we importend Britian's NHS, our cost for health care would drop from $7,000 per person to $4,000 and we would get better care, live longer, and be healthier. The British even have healthier teeth.

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look at who is pushing the panic button
Posted by: zooeyhall on Apr 10, 2008 6:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you take a good look at who is pushing the panic button and blaring about the "imminent crisis in Social Security.. the looming crisis in Medicare...etc", it is very revealing. Mostly it is conservative groups like the Heritage Foundation who are doing it. And they have an agenda behind their noisemaking. These are people who hate the very idea of Social Security or any social programs--period. They have been frothing at the mouth about it since FDR passed it in 1934. And of course, the dumb-ass media dutifully and un-critically passes this propaganda to viewers as "news". So that now every young person I talk to (I am 53) believes that there will be no safety net for them when they get older, and that people like me are responsible for it.

Look carefully behind the curtain whenever any "gloom and doom" predictors start their blabbing. You can usually find someone with an agenda.

Thank you, Alternet, for posting this article!

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Not quite an ostrich essay...
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Apr 10, 2008 7:40 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...maybe more like fake left, go right.

The author's premise, that with a little slight of hand a few power point slides we can turn a ~55-60 trillion dollar unfunded liability into no real biggie doesn't wash, and I can give you a trillion reasons why, in equal stacks of bout 57.

And that's just the medicare/social security portion that our aging baby boomers will require, if things continue as the presently are.

Bottom line: Taxpayers are now on the hook for a record $59.1 trillion in liabilities, a 2.3% increase from 2006. That amount is equal to $516,348 for every U.S. household. By comparison, U.S. households owe an average of $112,043 for mortgages, car loans, credit cards and all other debt combined.

Unfunded promises made for Medicare, Social Security and federal retirement programs account for 85% of taxpayer liabilities. State and local government retirement plans account for much of the rest.
snip

You'd think after such bad press over accounting practices, governmentals would come clean with the books, and address how we are going to keep Medicare and Social Security in the business of still being there. We can be--rightly--miffed at Ken Lay and Enron (etc.), but we mostly shrug when our elected officials play with numbers in a way that puts the country on a collision course with reneging on its promises.

Yes, the author is correct in that gramps is probably not going to be responsible for that much of an increase in my HSA account, that fraud, waste, and abuse do contribute to my health care costs, that new, expensive pills are--often--not all that helpful. I disagree with him in the general area of medical technology--diagnostics and better patient education have led to some startling declines in the cancer rate in the nation--some of the first good news in many, many years, while (broadly) "pills/therapies" such herceptin (nothing but a gd monoclonal antibody) that cost billions to research and thousands of dollars to provide have extended the life span of a patient with a metastatic tumor by only an average of 4-6 months. Gleevec, which was touted to be a breakthrough cancer drug, appears only effective in treating a small number of liquid tumors, and eventual resistance of the tumor cells is common.

But I digress. None of those observations are capable of changing the laws of addition and subtraction. The author reminds us of Ken Lay, putting on a brave face and insisting that, "no reason to be uptight, everything is basically ok"...right up until the math caught up with him, and everyone else who owned Enron.

Folks, we own this nation, and we're going to be in the same situation as Enron shareholders when the math finally strikes, regardless of the platitudes offered.

It's time to stop denying our Medicare bills and Social Security liabilities and find a way to pay them, if we value the return they provide. There is indeed a crisis looming, and we have every right to be worried about what it will mean for our country.

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» I Agree Posted by: mattcoa
While You Are Waiting
Posted by: Southern Gal on Apr 10, 2008 7:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While you are waiting for sane healthcare policies and national health insurance for all, you need to eat lots of locally grown organic (if possible) fruits and vegetables, exercise regularly (take a walk and enjoy) do deep breathing when you're stressed, turn off the television, talk to your family and neighbors, spend time with your pets, listen to good music, try to get as much sleep as you can and read Alternet to stay informed ( you may have to exercise and deep breathe some more after you read some of the articles about how we the people are getting screwed).

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astilbe
Posted by: acers on Apr 10, 2008 8:04 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Social Solidarity. Magic words. I am so tired of living in a herd of cats.
It feels like a cop-out to move to a country with good, reasonable health care at my age, although I am of Swedish descent and could move. When I was younger, it would surely have been an option if I had known the mess this country would get into. But hindsight is just that,behind us. So I stick with it and support better health care whenever I can.
This country seems so much to believe in 'I've got mine, you can go jump in the lake, or whatever.' Social Solidarity...caring what happens to all of us. Even those who have fallen through the cracks. Maybe we'll evolve.

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American dietary habits and environmental pollution are the culprits
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Apr 10, 2008 8:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People who come to the U.S. and who adopt U.S. eating practices: high-fructose corn syrup in everything, high levels of meat and fat in the diet, pesticides and preservatives in everything, etc.

As a country, we have the worst diet. This leads to a high incidence of heart disease, liver damage, diabetes, high blood pressure, cancer and other ailments. That's really what results in exploding medical bills for families as people age.

We also have a high level of exposure to air and water pollution, though here the separation is more along economic lines - industrial pollution is allowed in poor neighborhoods, but not in wealthy ones, although it all trickles down into the food and water supply that everyone relies on.

There are two solutions to the dietary problem, both difficult. One involves forcing the U.S. food and agribusiness industry to clean up its practices. Another involves getting American consumers to change their shopping and cooking practices. Cook grains, buy organic vegetables, and select protein sources carefully. Eat lower on the food chain, as well- it's better for you and for the environment. Buy food at farmer's markets and make a general rule not to buy any processed foodstuffs. Don't buy any food that's been imported into the country. That means big profit losses for Global Agri-Food Inc., but oh well.

The environmental pollution problem is equally massive, equally damaging to health, and can be harder to avoid. Any child living in a high-traffic area with diesel trucks runs a serious risk of developing asthma, for example. While a screen for environmental pollutants in the body (mercury, lead, pesticides, hormone mimics, arsenic, etc) should be a normal part of a yearly medical checkup, the chemical industry has worked overtime to prevent that from happening (see Bill Moyers: http://www.pbs.org/tradesecrets/)

Intergenerational bickering will do nothing to solve the problem. We need some basic institutions put in place, including a National Health Care System (after the British or Canadian or French systems) that includes pollutant screening and dietary counseling for patients.

The only question I have for the baby boomers is: what the hell happened? You started off with such wonderful dreams, and look what it turned into: Reaganomics and the rise of grotesque personal greed as the acceptable moral standard for public behavior. Hippies turned yuppies turned loyal system apparatchiks. Sure, a gross generalization, but it has a little bit of truth to it, doesn't it?

Overall population issues are a lot more complicated than most people are willing to admit. For example, see Putin calls for steps to end drop in population:

""Right," Putin answered. "The Defense Ministry knows what the main thing is. Really, I am going to speak about love, women, children" - the assembled officials applauded - "family, and Russia's most acute problem today: demography."

Putin then warned that Russia's population has been declining by almost 700,000 people a year.

The underlying data is grim. In 2004,for every 16 Russians who died, only 10.4 babies were born, according to the most recently available official data. And the average age of death for a Russian man was 58.9 years, far below other industrial nations and roughly two decades behind the average age at death of an American male."

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It starts at the meal table!!
Posted by: xvictor on Apr 10, 2008 8:50 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are many folks who eat so blindly that they care not what their body looks like on the outside, let alone how the inside of their body looks like. Drastically cut down consumption of steaks, chops, london broils, filet mignon, hamburgers, sausages, bacon, roast beef, pot roast, hot dogs, etc.

Move your ass a lot more. Patronize your local gym more often. cut down on the constant munchies while watching TV.

Simple things like the above will improve your quality of life and save you from ingesting a lifetime of expensive anti-cholesterol pills and other prescriptions and avoiding medical procedures like cutting you open to do heart surgery, etc. You'll also do the environment a big favor.

But most folks will not do these simple things. It takes a bit of will power to dissuage a lifetime of gluttony. With that in mind, I may invest in funeral stocks. It will not be long before I hit pay dirt! You careless folks out there, make me rich!!!

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Greed!
Posted by: Gravitas on Apr 10, 2008 9:55 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am glad that the article mentioned cutting out fraud and waste. While the American public has been convinced they are killing themselves with their knives and forks (guilty folk are easier to manipulate!) Pharma and other health providers have been ripping off the system left and right. I found it funny that some aging state representative from Mississippi (Mayhall) introduced a bill to prohibit fat people from eating in restaurants. His wanted to call attention to the strain obesity places on medicaid. But guess what? His former company DuPont-Merck was settling with the gov for defrauding medicaid at the very same time. That didn't make the headlines. A coincidence I am sure!

Maybe we should also stop worshipping longevity! Or at least let the people who don't want to spend their entire lives obsessed with eaking out every last minute alone! They will save us in the long run!

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Health Care Industry Greed and Individual Greed
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com on Apr 10, 2008 10:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Talk to any person out there and ask them if they want to die. What do you think they will say?

Part of the problem is while people will say they don't want to live forever, when faced with meeting the reaper most tend to ask the doctor what their options are to treat the disease they have.

The health care industry is more than happy to provide newer, more effective, more expensive treatments to anyone who will buy them. And we consumers are willing to take them as long as we can afford them, sometimes even if we can't because of our fear of death, and especially when we the individual isn't footing the bill.

Death is a natural process and extending life to the point that we are feeble, unable to move, and senile is just pointless and incredibly expensive.

In many ways, normal health insurance is bad, it encourages us to take as much as we can from the health care pot above and beyond what we put into it.

The same would be true with a single payer system unless it had some kind of caps.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be some kind of disaster insurance for people in car accidents or people who are unlucky and get cancer or some other disease at a young age.


But the expectation that we all have the right to live longer than the average no matter how we have treated our bodies, no matter our remaining quality of life, and no matter how much of a drain we are on others is selfish and greedy, every bit as greedy as the health care industry.

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Gee!
Posted by: badkitty on Apr 10, 2008 11:11 AM   
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Sweden's healthcare sounds a lot like Kaiser. For those of you outside of the West Coast and Ohio, at least here in northern California all our Kaiser medical records are available electronically to medical staff. And preventive care is the usual $20 office visit, in most cases.

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» RE: Gee! Posted by: maggiem
Wanna bet
Posted by: willymack on Apr 10, 2008 11:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That if we go to a true universal, single-payer, government (tax) funded health care system, and wait 10 years to ask people if they'd rather have it the way it used to be, that they'd say "hell, yes"? My bet is that they'd say "Hell NO!". But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

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A man's gotta believe in something-
Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Apr 10, 2008 12:50 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe I'll have another drink! And how, you say, does that measure up to modern medicine? Well, if I must, medical doctors take one course in pharmacology as first year med students and earn 3 credits. That's it folks, after that these glorified pushers are the patsies of the pharmaceutical detail boys that push the little purple pills and other poisons for the suckers to ingest. Me, I prefer the acquired taste of good beer, wines and liquor which we now know does more for the old ticker than anything the quacks push. Toss in a chocolate now and then and you may have whupped the demons that sicken most folks. Oh, it also helps to live in a society that gives a damn about its people, provides good paying jobs that breed decency and pride and enable the working class to sleep well knowing they can pay their bills and provide for the families. Think that might promote good health? I'll drink to that!!!!!

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MEDICAL FASCISM
Posted by: HANGTRAITORS on Apr 10, 2008 3:08 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
our profit centered medical dictatorship is the problem.. JUST REMEMBER WHEN EVERYONE IS HEALTHY THEY GO OUT OF BUSINESS,, THATS A CONFLICT OF INTEREST... THEY ARE INTERESTED IN LONG EXPENSIVE ILLNESSS , NOT QUICK CURES AND WELLNESS.......
http://www.whale.to/a/medical_mafia.html

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» RE: MEDIEVAL MEDICAL FASCISM..! Posted by: TJ-stars4peace
» RE: MEDIEVAL MEDICAL FASCISM..! Posted by: sasquuatch55
Maggie Mahar
Posted by: maggiem on Apr 10, 2008 4:11 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tom--

While I am all in favor of preventive medicine, it doesn't save money.

The truth is that with good preventive care,
people live longer. And eventually, they still get sick and die. So they need more health care for more years.

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» RE: Maggie Mahar Posted by: drricklippin
We've Been Duped to Think We Need More In Medicine
Posted by: drricklippin on Apr 10, 2008 4:14 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maggie-Thanks for reporting from Berlin.

The big questions in medicine over the next several decades are-

1)Does it work?(efficacy)
2)Does it harm? (is risk greater than benefit?)

But getting most patients to agree that more is not necessarily better in Medicine is no easy task. Especially in the US where the ethic of "more" is reflective of our immature culture. And yet where many citizens have "none".

We are beginning to see a growing percentage of patients start to realize that organized medicine(like organized religion)has essentially duped us Building on genuine,truly great achievements of the past they tell us we need more of the same.We don't. More of the same instead is backfiring.

As you and Reinhardt say the suppliers will not cease selling the benefits of their endless technolgies. But we are indeed on that part of the bio-medical technology curve where the benefits of new technologies are minimal to non-existant at best-harmful at worst-expensive always.

Paternalistic organized medicine has infantilized us into thinking we need more- we don't. Their telling us so is generally a cruel hoax.

We need to move away from our dependency mind set and just say "no"

We need to grow up.

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton,Pa

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Maggie Mahar
Posted by: maggiem on Apr 10, 2008 4:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let me clarify something--

Social Security is not going broke. That is a myth spread by conservatives who would like to
get rid of it by privatizing it.

Medicare (completely separate funding) is running out of money. I will be posting about this on http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/the-coffee-house/ tomorrow.

And Medicare is going broke, not becaue the boomers are aging, but because it is covering too many new drugs, tests, procedures and treatments that are very, very expensive, and often not effective.

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» RE: Maggie Mahar Posted by: drricklippin
» Sigh. Posted by: ABetterFuture
Um
Posted by: InsertNameHere on Apr 10, 2008 5:12 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What healthcare system?

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anybody seen the movie , "Logan's Run?"
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Apr 10, 2008 5:59 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
anybody seen the movie , "Logan's Run?"
it's a 70s sci-fi fantasy where folks are required to "beam up" at age 30...quite the message. i'm willing to give up my own life at 75 (or maybe even 70) to make way for the needier coming up. anyone else willing to end their life early as a "gift" to society?

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» Why? Posted by: Centavo
Peter Orszag Chair of the CBO already covered this..!
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Apr 11, 2008 8:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our Chairman of the Congressional Budget Office the great Peter Orszag already covered this issue a few months ago showing clearly that it is not the additional numbers of so called baby boomers that puts undo pressure on the health care system and Medicare but the out of control rising costs within and of the Medical industry costs rising at 10-14% per year..!

Try and find the Congressional Budget Office report and or go to C-span archive to see it explained by him of C-span Journal on which he was a quest to point this out..!

Of course the Only Solution is Single Payer Health Care and I will not Vote for Anyone that does not endorse or advocate Single Payer Health Care just like Bush and Cheney and Obama and Clinton both of them, and McCain and Pelosi have..!

If you do not demand Single Payer Health Care of these miserable examples for candidates for the presidency of the United States then you don't deserve it and you'll never get it..

Single Payer Health Care is a fundamental part and aspect of one of the reforms we need so desperately to save and modernize and strengthen our nation and serve it's people's best interest..

The others are to Nationalize the American Oil Companies, Nationalize our Airlines and Peg the Sub Prime Mortgages at 2-3% of the Fed Rate and or Prime lending rate so avert a housing and huge financial crisis..also set Federal Usery Rates at 18.9% and no higher an that for only the most extreme cases..!

If you saw George Soros on Charlie Rose last night who I often disagree with he for once recognizes what I have seen ans said for a long time that balance and moderation is required for a market system to function..!

In the tradition of John Stuart Mill who said at the end of his life I am a Democratic Socialist it is the best of both worlds but only for these Infrastructural assets..!

With these infrastructural modifications we could create an economic boom but the Republican fascist party does not want a strong vibrant middle class they want poor miserable workers who are under educated and live at a subsistence level and the Democrats are not much better to be honest about it...!

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