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Report From Iran: Should We Really Bomb These People?

By , AlterNet. Posted April 5, 2008.


The author explains, "Iranians are among the most gracious and hospitable people I've ever met."

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I'm in Shiraz, on the way to Esfahan.

It's good to get out of gray, smoggy Tehran, one of the least photogenic cities in the world, where black is the new black, from the hejabs on down.

One of the attractions of Shiraz is the tomb of Hafez, a Persian poet from the 14th century. It's thronged at night. Iranians bring flowers, then stand or kneel beside the sarcophagus and recite his poems. My personal reaction is, this is how writers should always be treated.

Iranians are among the most gracious and hospitable people I've ever met.

The question, of course, is whether we should bomb these people?

In America today, we tend to see things in Manichaean terms. That is, we divide things into absolute opposites, light and dark, good and evil, us and them.

We could, if we went back far enough, blame that on them. The word Manichaean refers to the Persian prophet Mani (from around 250 AD). The whole notion of good and evil, with man in the middle, having to make a choice, then rewarded and condemned in an afterlife, goes back to an even earlier Persian prophet, Zoroaster, from around 1,000 BC. Those ideas entered Judaism during the Babylonian exile and the liberation of the Jews by Cyrus the Great of Persia, and from there into Christianity.

There are still Zoroastrians and Jews in modern-day Persia, the Islamic Republic of Iran.

These are people with a rich and varied history. A very humanistic history.

The question is, why should we bomb these people?

The answer is that they are part of the Axis of Evil!

Iranians are somewhat confused by that designation.

The United States was attacked on Sept. 11, 2001, by a ragged group of conspirators called Al Qaeda, led by Osama bin Laden, headquartered in Afghanistan, where they were protected and nurtured by the Taliban. The Taliban were, and are, fanatical, fundamentalist Sunnis. They're the ones who put women in burkhas, those full-body coverings and veils; required men to be bearded; and banned all music, television, movies, photographs, statues, stuffed animals and dolls.

The Taliban came to power in 1996. They were supported by Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates.

They were opposed by the Northern Alliance. The Northern Alliance was supported by Russia, India and, most of all, by Iran.

The United States was neutral from 1996 to 2001. After 9/11, we demanded that Afghanistan's Taliban government hand over Osama bin Laden. When it refused, we entered the war, primarily with air power, in support of the Northern Alliance. As Ray Takeyh wrote in Hidden Iran: Paradox and Power in the Islamic Republic:

American links with the Northern Alliance were fragmentary ... Afghan opposition groups [were] suspicious of the United States. Tehran's mediation proved essential ... Iran also provided intelligence ... agreed to rescue American pilots ... allowed some 165,000 tons of U.S. food aid to traverse its territory ... [after the fighting] Iran was instrumental in crafting the interim Afghan government.
Iran's president Khatami said, "Afghanistan provides the two regimes [the United States and Iran] with a perfect opportunity to improve relations."

The Bush administration embraced the people who had given the Taliban and Al Qaeda safe haven (Pakistan) and money (Saudi Arabia and the Emirates) and declared Iran, who aided us in our war against the Taliban, as part of the Axis of Evil.

The question is, shouldn't we bomb them because, in addition to being one of the two remaining parts of the Axis of Evil, they are part of the Islamo-Fascist Alliance to rule the world?

We moved on from the pleasures of Shiraz, to Esfahan which is a treasure. A miracle.

In the 16th century, when Shah Abbas I made it the capital of the Safavid dynasty, it was probably the greatest city in the world. It has been designated a World Heritage Site by UNESCO, along with the Great Wall of China, the Statue of Liberty, the Taj Mahal, and the historic center of St. Petersburg.

There, we connected with a group of 20- and 30-something Iranians, all of whom spoke excellent English, and went out to dinner with them. They were students, medical professionals, and small-business people, four men and three women. Because we were in public, the women wore the required headscarves but managed to make them fashion accessories. They constantly adjusted them with graceful gestures that drew attention to their beauty and femininity. It is worth pointing out that while women in Iran are not as free as in America or Western Europe, they have more freedom and participate more fully in public life than in the rest of the Islamic World.

The conversation was lively and fluid and touched on politics, world affairs, the regime, America, religion and even disbelief.

In the first ten minutes of almost any conversation with an Iranian, he or she will point out that they are not Arabs, they're Persians. They may even say that they don't like Arabs, or, more emphatically, "I hate f**king Arabs."

They liked Americans. They didn't like the regime. They didn't think they could do anything about the current government.

The question is, shouldn't we bomb them to help good people like that? Won't bombing them make them blame their leaders for forcing us to attack them, so they will rise up and change the regime?

A lot of people dislike the regime. And with good cause.

At times it seemed that this was a country where everybody went to prison. Everyone who thought, wrote, had opinions, was political, who had property that could be taken -- save for fervent supporters of the regime -- had gone to prison. Or worse, been tortured and executed.

People who had lovers and who danced, possessed illegal music, stood up for academic freedom, and were members of minority religions or clergy who didn't support Khomenie's radical re-interpretation of Shia'a Islam, were arrested, harassed, beaten, and thrown out of windows, and lost their jobs and careers, and went to prison. The country also has inflation, unemployment, underemployment and low wages. Heroin addiction is widespread and growing. Opium use is routine, even, according to gossip on the street, in the highest levels of government. Corruption is rampant and everyone knows it.

However, even their opponents gave the regime credit for certain things. Making Iran self-sufficient. Keeping a country of Persians, Kurds, Turkomans, Azerbaijanis, Pashtuns and Arabs together in spite of the centripetal forces of ethnic and tribal loyalties. It's a safe place. There's very little street crime. There are no car bombings. No terrorist incidents. No kidnappings.

An underlying thread became clear through all these conversations. The number one hot-button political issue in Iran is standing up to foreign powers. Their history, since Alexander the Great invaded and burned Persepolis, is one of being invaded, threatened, exploited and subverted by outsiders. As for the 20th century, the British exploited their natural resources, then the United States overthrew their democracy and put a compliant king in charge, and as soon as he was deposed, they were invaded by Saddam Hussein. He received support from America and other Western nations. That war lasted eight years, and Iran had somewhere between 750,000 and 1 million casualties.

The notion that bombing Iran will make the people overthrow the Supreme Leader and the Council of Guardians makes as much sense as imagining that a new 9/11 will make the American people thank Al Qaeda for their inspiration, then rise up and overthrow our president and senate with a government more receptive to Islamic ways.

There is one real argument. It is that if Iran gets nuclear weapons, it will use them. Specifically on Israel.

Iran is, ultimately, ruled by the Supreme Leader. He is deemed to be infallible. In 2003 he issued a fatwa, a ruling of holy law, against the development and use of nuclear weapons. This is when, according to the U.S. National Intelligence Estimate, Iran stopped such developments.

Iran claims it only wants nuclear energy. Countries that produce nuclear energy include Lithuania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Bulgaria, Romania, South Africa, Czech Republic, Mexico and Brazil. At least 56 countries have nuclear research reactors.

So the argument goes back to intentions. That Iran is more dangerous than Russia, more of an enemy than China, more unstable than Pakistan, more warlike than Israel, and more likely to have aggressive leaders who will launch a pre-emptive war than the United States.

If they had nuclear weapons and used them, especially if they used them aggressively, as a first strike, then Israel and the United States would retaliate with far more force and effectively destroy Iran. What we are likely to have in reality is the sort of mutual stand-off we had with the Soviet Union for 50 years.

In addition to Esfahan's astonishing beauty, its historical value, its vibrant culture, arts and crafts, it is home to a nuclear research reactor and it's where uranium is processed toward producing nuclear fuel.

If Iran is bombed, Esfahan will undoubtedly be a target. One of hundreds. Those lovely people that I had dinner with will likely die. If not them, their parents, children, brothers and sisters. The student of English who sat and talked to me about Hafez for two hours. The man who makes the hand-printed table clothes in the bazaar. The mason working on the reconstruction of the great mosque.

I like to think that America can somehow overcome what's happened these last seven years. The unprovoked invasion of another country, the embrace of torture, the assault on civil liberties, the looting of our own economy, the failure to rescue the people of New Orleans and to rebuild it. Somehow.

But bombing Iran because it postures and provokes on the world stage will be a disaster that we won't live down. We might try to say it's something that our leaders did, we had no part in it, we could not stop them. If that's true, and it may be true, that's sadder still.

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Larry Beinhart is the author of "Wag the Dog," "The Librarian," and "Fog Facts: Searching for Truth in the Land of Spin." All available at nationbooks.org.

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"I hate F#%&ing Arabs?!"
Posted by: Obijuan on Apr 5, 2008 12:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find this to be the worst statement in this article. Is this attitude considered a good thing by the author? It sure seems implied. The current state inside Iran, and of Persians outside Iran, is one of denial and self centered ignorance.

Arabs are anywhere from 15-25% of the population in Iran, and are one of several abused minorities there. The author speaks as though the torture and murder of citizens who spoke out was somehow spread evenly though the population. This is a horrible distortion of the truth. It has been and continues to be the ethnic 'minorities' who are oppressed. It was they who spoke out against the Persian ruling class, and it is they who have now all but given in to this pressure to shut up. These peoples were and are abused, imprisoned, and tortured into compliance.

While I do not condone bombing any country, this author makes some very unsubstantiated and exaggerated points to again suggest the idea of an unprovoked war. The implication of the use of force against Israel is a bit alarmist.

In case you missed it, even the author learned that Iran has a significant Jewish population. These Jews are also Persian! This propaganda about destroying Israel is really just nonsense. Over and over we hear this lie. To say that Israel has 'no right to exist' and should be 'wiped off the map' is not far from the truth. These two statements do not imply exterminating the Jews at all. They imply that the region governed now as Israel should in reality be a multi-ethnic democracy ruled by and serving all it's historical residents, instead of only Jewish immigrants, as it is now.

The history of Israel is horrible, and next to the extermination of the Native Americans, one of the dirtiest cleansing campaigns in ongoing human history. Yet another imaginary enemy of Israel is Iran, and this is another part of the brilliant way that US tax dollars are continuous funneled to Israel for self defense to the tune of nearly 7 million dollars a day.

The fact remains that the Jews in Iran are economically powerful, and are infinitely better off than the Arabs and other minorities living there or in Israel. Sheez.

You have traveled in Iran, and succeeded in only seeing what your Persian hosts wanted you to see. You have shown us their version of Iran, rather than reality. You have essentially traveled to America, spent time with a group from Westboro Baptist, and decided you understand United States.

A sad excuse for journalism. Thanks for nothing.

obi

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» Thanks Obi Posted by: David/Daoud
» Not Pulitzer material... Posted by: arag
Terrorist
Posted by: HeKnew on Apr 5, 2008 2:52 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We don't have to provide Israel with a proxy army...


Direct Democracy

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» RE: Israel and Christians Posted by: yellow
USA likes suicide
Posted by: richholland on Apr 5, 2008 5:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
China doesnt like it when USA bombs Iran.
The European Union doesnt like it at all.
But it is possible that crazy politicians who destroyed their own country allready will make war.
What would happen to America if you use all the money waisted in Iraq for health insurance, education or repairing roads and bridges???

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» RE: USA likes suicide Posted by: Dboy
USA, Britain & Izrael = The Real Axis of Evil
Posted by: MikeOckhurtz on Apr 5, 2008 5:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Take a look at who is bombing who, who's occupying who's land, who spends more on their military than the rest of the world, and you'll find that the real axis of evil is the US, England and Izrael. Everything each of them say, especially the US and Izrael, is usually reflective about themselves. We have an opposite George (See Costanza in Seinfeld) in the whitehouse, and everything he says about anything usually is the direct opposite in truth and reality.

The Iranians have done nothing, attacked no one, occupied no ones land, stolen no ones money, stolen no ones oil, and unlike Izrael, they have never attacked an American Navy vessel nor have they spied on America in spite of not receiving Billion$ of Dollar$ every year in free US taxpayer money and military aid. Nor, lastly, have the Iranians taken our free US taxpayer funded American Military hardware and technology and then sold it to China as the Izraelis have. yeah, I'd say that Americans have to take a reality check when it comes to their "ally" in the Middle East. I think we have our mis-leaders have their sights set on the wrong target.

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» whatever Posted by: MikeOckhurtz
» Capitol Hill is Israeli Occupied Territory Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: Capitol Hill is Israeli Occupied Territory Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
I am offended by "I hate f**king Arabs."
Posted by: David/Daoud on Apr 5, 2008 5:47 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Does the author have to repeat Iranian racism against their Arab minority? It may be acceptable in western media to make such statements, but it's not acceptable with me! I lived with Arabs in Palestine who were, without exception, very kind and hospitable with me, so I don't accept such comments from anyone, especially one who may know nothing of Arab culture.

David Vickery
(Canada)

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Iran: Should We Really Bomb These People? Americans Will Find That a Perfectly Reasonable Title
Posted by: opmoc on Apr 5, 2008 5:57 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Even Americans who don't want to bomb Iran won't see anything much wrong with the title.

That says a lot about Americans.

Think back to the year 2000. Who was America's big enemy then?

Yet my son visited America in 2000 at the age of 12 - with the local Scout Group.

In England Boy Scouts play silly games, have fun, and eat baked beans and sausages round the campfire.

They were expecting American Boy Scouts to be much the same.

My son spent two weeks learning to fire every weapon there is from a bow and arrow - right up to a machine gun.

He thought American's were completely crazy. It was as if he had spent two weeks with the Hitler Youth in 1937.

Yet you didn't have any real enemies in 2000 - but you were definitely all fired up wanting to bomb and kill someone.

So 9/11 was made to happen to turn all this pent up aggressive energy into real hatred.

Sure a bunch of Bearded Muslims from Afghanistan did it - just so that you could bomb them all to hell. And once started on this gen fest - well - why stop. Lets Bomb Iraq. Lets Invade Iraq and Steal Their Oil. Oh Lets Bomb Iran Now...

They all hate us so lets bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran

You guys have got a serious attitude problem

I'm not saying the British are much better - after all we've doing the same thing for years - but we don't program our kids to be homicidal maniacs at the age of 12 when they join the Boy Scouts at the local Church Hall.

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» Thankyou OPMOC Posted by: David/Daoud
What's good for the Goose.......
Posted by: Phred42 on Apr 5, 2008 6:19 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So the Iranians have a shitty government run by a bunch of insane bastards. Sound Familiar? If that's a reason to bomb them it's also a reason to bomb Crawford.

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Bombing Iran: a Nazi act of terror
Posted by: citizenjoe on Apr 5, 2008 7:50 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Or should I say "another Nazi act of terror" following the bombing of Baghdad; the devastation of Fallujah,the tortures of Abu Ghraib,and Guantanamo, etc.Do we really think the world does not see this as fascism? Why not? Because we don't have Gestapo rule at home? Really -- we won't call them fascists until they start brutalizing us too? Thats disgusting!

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Nukes -- & An Important Lesson
Posted by: QQOblivion on Apr 5, 2008 8:14 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Keep in mind that some in the administration (most notably Dick Cheney, I believe) have considered using NUCLEAR weapons against "military" targets in Iran, and some of the targets are near populated areas.
And even if the US only uses conventional explosives in any bombing campaign of nuclear sites, if those sites are active then radioactive fallout will be released over the region (contaminating not only Iran, but nearby areas such as Iraq -- and that would poison US troops, never mind the Iraqi population).

I love the point the author makes, by the way, that bombing Iran in order to inspire the people to rise up makes as much sense as assuming that 9-11 would make Americans rise up and overthrow the Bush administration and then install an Islam-inspired government in its place.
So true.
I think that Americans should in general get a lesson in Iran, especially given the misconceptions we have about that nation.
We should get a lesson about ANY country America is likely to bomb.
Thank you for the article.

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» RE: Nukes -- & An Important Lesson Posted by: richholland
Do unto others as you would have others do onto you
Posted by: leemiller38 on Apr 5, 2008 8:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why should WE or anyone bomb anyone else? The fact that this question needs to be posed goes a long way to explain our flawed species. Apparently we are not as knowing or compassionate as we think we are. All hands up, How many of you would like to be bombed?

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If we bomb Iran...
Posted by: HughScott on Apr 5, 2008 10:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
then Reverent Wright will have spoken the truth. If we bomb Iran, God damn America!

Hugh E. Scott, Vietnam vet, ex-USAF pilot, lifelong registered Republican, ARDENT Obama supporter and the author of George Dub-ya Bush, THE PHONY FIGHTER PILOT, published in 2004.

To read a sample chapter and learn about the only smoking-gun proof of White House corruption ever found on the Web, visit www.PhonyFighterPilot.com.

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What People FORGET
Posted by: JSquercia on Apr 5, 2008 10:19 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What people forget is that after 911 there were candlelight vigils in Tehran . We had a PERFECT opportunity to point out that THIS (911) was the work of an EXTREMIST branch of Islam and To try to develop a dialogue with Muslim leaders . We squandered this opportunity
The article makes the totally overloked point that one of allies in the fight against the Talliban was Iran while our so called allies were providing Cover or Money and YET THEY were not identified as part of the Axis of Evil .
WE all know just how reliable an ally the Saudi's have been . They were perfectly happy to have the infidels DEFEND them against Iraq but once the threat gone told us to leave . We have seen their response to Bush's recent pleading to lower Oil Prices . The basically told Dubya to SHOVE IT . Of course in some ways you can't blame them particularly as the dollar slides into oblivion compared to the Euro . The best investment I've made in the past 3 years is the Euro's I forgot to trade in So I guess Prince Saud could tell Dubya it's nothing Personal it's just Business .

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We have learned nothing
Posted by: Sissy on Apr 5, 2008 10:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is the most discouraging thing in the world to me is the fact that we have learned absolutely nothing from the tragedy that has been Iraq. Had that report regarding the suspension of Iran's nuclear program not been leaked in December, there is not one doubt in my mind that we would not be at war with Iran this minute. We were on the way and it was just a matter of time. I believe that it would take very little effort on the part of this administration to still do it and we have a totally ineffective media that will allow it to happen without a question or challenge.

The whole world waits breathlessly for new leadership in this country, as do we. John McCain is NOT the answer for this leadership and the fact that he is doing so well in the polls given his war hawk history absolutely astonishes me.

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Idiot Journalism
Posted by: beautifulady2003 on Apr 5, 2008 10:34 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author of this so-called article is a racist bigoted idiot. The moronic comments about the women and their headscarves was nauseating enough, but then when I got to the "f*cking Arabs" quote, I thought, this is journalism? And by the way, tell the bonehead writer that people don't have to be "nice" for the idea of bombing them to be anathema; they only have to be human beings. Better to continue to try to enlighten the stupid folk out there who are buying into the "axis of evil" crap dished out by Bush and Cheney than to write such worthless pap as this article. There is no reason to make war on Iran - period.

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A most gracious and hospitable people I've ever met...
Posted by: Bearzerker on Apr 5, 2008 11:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... during my experiences in Gulf War 1991...

Iran is like any country, dynamic and complex...

making a stay and fight or cut and run decision doesn't really apply WRT Iran it's peoples and its political process... (at least it has one)

The author here makes a compelling argument about "who what where when why and how" about Iran its people and its offenses [real and/or imaginary] and puts forth evidentuary attributes of real importance in the current Police action in Afghanistan [are they allies or not in this cause]

The western MSM seem to be extremely selective in what they cover when it comes to Iran.
As is shown here in this article and with my own personal experiences in the region, I sadly must view western MSM coverage WRT Iran and Iranians with high suspicion...

anything emanating or being directed from the White house of President Bush and his Company is highly suspect as they haven't told a truth or kept a pledge since they came to power 8 years ago....
ergo, I will give the Iranian people my ear till it's proven unworthy,

All hype WRT Iran seems to semantics and slippery slope political machinations of Rethugnicans and Demoncrats alike, with the infotainment MSM being the paid servants of a Goebbels like plan.

In God We Trust?
Who's God?, What Trust?

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Hillary:"To deny the Holocaust places the President of Iran..."
Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal on Apr 5, 2008 11:31 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Connection between Hillary Clinton and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

In a message addressed to the [Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish Organizations (CPMJO)] symposium Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-NY) wrote:

"To deny the Holocaust places the President of Iran in company with the most despicable bigots and historical revisionists. It is an insult not only to the memory of the millions of Jews who suffered and died in the Shoah, but also to the troops of the United States and its allies who, in the fight to liberate Europe from Nazism, bore witness to the reality of the Holocaust. Such comments only add greater urgency to the necessity of denying nuclear weapons to Iran. A nuclear Iran is a danger to Israel, to its neighbors and beyond. The regime’s pro-terrorist, anti-American and anti-Israel rhetoric only underscores the urgency of the threat it poses. US policy must be clear and unequivocal. We cannot and should not – must not – permit Iran to build or acquire nuclear weapons."

"He who controls the present, controls the past. He who controls the past, controls the future." ~ Orwell, 1984

War is Peace | Freedom is Slavery | Ignorance is Strength ~ Orwell, 1984

"Attention! Your attention, please! A newsflash has this moment arrived from the [_______] front. Our forces in [_____ _____] have won a glorious victory. I am authorized to say that the action we are now reporting may well bring the war within measurable distance of its end. Here is the newsflash--" ~ Orwell, 1984

"If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell

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Oh Good Grief
Posted by: dockboy on Apr 5, 2008 12:45 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are not going to bomb Iran, much less go to war with them. Alternet writers and posters have been saying this for over a year, which means we would have already been at war with Iran by now.

But again, you're the same group who believe Bush and company are going to prevent the elections, that the FBI killed MLK, JFK, and RFK. You all need a good dose of reality.

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» RE: Oh Good Grief Posted by: Sissy
» Poppy Bush Was in Dallas on November 22, 1963 Posted by: Adler Berriman Seal
» RE: Oh Good Grief Posted by: MikeOckhurtz
» RE: Oh Good Grief Posted by: Squarehead
Revolution is coming, like it or not, we will be fighting each other.
Posted by: MikeOckhurtz on Apr 5, 2008 1:23 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why not bomb Iran? Their threat to the world is that they can sell oil to the Chinese and India and trade in PetroEuros rather than Petrodollars. The Saudi's are already set up to do it when our country tanks, and it will. Thinks gas is expensive now? Wait until we nuke Iran. It's going to be awful.

Plus, When our economy goes belly up - and it will - Americans will find themselves facing sorrow at home as never before. The only thing left for our mis-leaders to do is to lash out by using the Pentagon muscle as a mouthpiece - at home. There's a reason why our civil liberties, privacy, and the constitution have been tossed aside. It has nothing to do with 9-11. It's all about the coming fascist regime of Corporations and the Christian Extremists taking final control of our government. We will be facing energy blackouts, internet censorship (if it works at all) and corporate police like Blackwater to supplement the cities and towns across America whose budgetary cutbacks will deplete law enforcement. Think you have rights? Free speech zones will be remembered as the last time in America that people could gather to protest and practice political dissent. As it is now you will get tasered and arrested for raising your voice in a question to an asshole elitist Senator like John Kerry. He did nothing about it. If that had been Dennis Kucinich the pigs probably would have tasered HIM.

Anyway, it's going to be mighty cold in America after the nukes go off. And they will, it's just a question of when.

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4.8 million people are already dead and you want to bomb another country
Posted by: unity1 on Apr 5, 2008 1:58 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nothing much shocks me about the US anymore

the news media refuse to comprehend the size of the holocaust that america is waging in the ME

4.8 million people are now dead, gone slaughtered for what ...american hegemony - the Germans killed between 5-6 million and to this day we mourn them but nothing for the 4.8 million dead in americas illegal war

where am i getting this figure from - go check it out

http://gideon.sulekha.com/blog/
post/2007/01/
us-holocaust-denial-bengali-indian-afghan-holocausts.htm

you people are beyond contempt - racist in the extreme and you have exported that racism and your delusional patriotic dogma out into the rest of the world - a relatively NEW country the US is like the spoiled rotten child that wants everything and will take it by force even if that means killing and polluting the entire planet to do so

shame on all of you -

4.8 million dead and your politician's are still talking about war and bombing another country

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On Iran
Posted by: krsierra on Apr 5, 2008 2:31 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I spent 8-years working, teaching and travelling to some of the most remout villages to the capital Tehran hence I might be in a position to make a contribution to this debate.

During the last 25-years having visited most European countries and as well as some in south and Middle-East resgion I would whole heartedly agree with the writer that the Iranians are probably one of the most hospitable people I have ever meet.

Despite their simplicity of the way they live, many times they took me by surprise with their intelligence, awareness regarding the happenings around the wourld and their very direct participation for the management of their local affairs.

One of the stricking aspect of the local communities that I came accross was the secutity exist no matter where I went irrespective of the time of day or night without seeing any policeman or otherwise.

In smaller towns and villages most of the local dispute are resolved by a few elders and all the services are free!!

Finally the observations would be un-complete if one does not mention the quality and variety of the food they prepare and I recommend that to anyone.

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America at War? Really?
Posted by: justAnEgg on Apr 5, 2008 5:04 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When a high school bully thrashes an innocent weakling, do you call it a "fight"? I thought so. Why, then, you guys keep talking about America being "at war" with Afganistan, Iraq, ... ?

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Bombing Iran....
Posted by: eosrk on Apr 5, 2008 5:43 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
would be 6x the fuck-up on Iraq....and can thrust the region into a civil war...which will involve the big players (china, russia, etc. etc)...then its WWIII!

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Those offended confirm my prejudice against 'well bred' American intellectuals
Posted by: counterpoint on Apr 5, 2008 7:26 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All this hubbub about a reported observation by Beinhart about Iranians hating to be seen as Arabs!
Is it really that hard to deal with reality, one in which not every thought or word has been purified by an Oxford don or a Princeton tutor?
It's the old question about what is more tasteless or obscence: that Cheney said "Fuck you!" to Leahy on the Senate floor, or that he planned and carried out illegal war, occupation, and annihilation of innocents?
Larry Beinhart is one of my heroes: he's one of those cutting through the fog - like the politeness craze! - that keeps most citizens from seeing what is well documented and right before their eyes, and yet is rarely brought into focus. Read his Fog Facts: http://fogfacts.com/ or the election novel The Librarian in which he predicted one of the Orwellian, Goebbel-like tactics later used by Cheney against the Dems: Using almost the same language as the novel's Bush-alike, Cheney said if the Dems get elected we'll be sure to get another Al Qaeda attack - but Beinhart's book said it first.

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Iranins and Arabsand, History of Invasion
Posted by: Siba on Apr 6, 2008 1:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I as Iranian like Arabs. Here are some points to show the conflict between these two neighbor civilisations. First, Iranian Arabs are less than 5% of the Iran population. I have lived for more than 16 years in Khuzestan near the border of Iraq , where majority of Iranian Arabs or Arab Iranians live. Based on my experience, some Iranian saying that they hates Arabs does not mean they hate Iranian Arabs or even does not mean they hate Arabs in other countries including Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Iraq and so on. Iranian feels a historical pain about the invasion of Islamic Arabs’ Army mainly from the country called Saudi Arabia to Iran 12-13 century ago when the Arab oppressors destroyed their so-called glorious culture along with torturing, raping and taking for slavery a number of Iranians, stealing their treasures as well as occupying the country and forcing their language and religion for several bloody centuries. Anyway, this is something reciprocal that you can find between neighbour civilizations with bloody historical conflict. I have seen unfortunately some people from both Soudi Arbia and Iran use the same hatred language towards each other. majority of Iranians who I have lived with do not hate Arabs but they believe Arabs will never like Iranians based on their bloody history. They strongly believe they have never treated Arabs or other country the way that the Arabs treated them and they have never invaded their country as they invaded or supported the invasion. These people hate their government interfering in the Arabs world. Iranian after their era of being so-called superpower has selected a defensive strategy. This is why there is no invasion from Iran to other countries since past several centuries ago this is why the assumption of Iran as threat to his neighbourhoods is not fact. However, regardless of the differences within Iranians in terms of ethnicity, no Iranian tolerates invasion to their country after suffering centuries of fighting with different suppressors. The 8-year active defence against Sadam’s Army and his Arab and non-Arab allies is an example of unity against outside invader where Iranian defended aggressively for the territory called Iran. more than 700000 young Iranians were killed. The experience of Iraq and its ally ’s invasion and the experience of being invaded in world war II while declared indifference reinforce the idea of having a powerful defensive strategies. Iran as a powerful nation in more than 20000 years ago has fulfilled its ambitious for invasion to other countries and occupying other lands and freeing slaves from tyranny regimes (e.g., Babylon) it is now the era of the new superpower, USA, to fulfill such stupid bloody ambitions.
The history has given a lesson to Iran to be defensive not aggressive since from all of that glorious conquers nothing remains than a destroyed historical palaces and monuments. However Iranian pride still remains will not be died simply. The pride does not let them to explicitly accept degrading dependency on others. This is why revolution happened this is why the problem of relationship with USA is not having a profitable communication (they already have) but having a respectful conversation in an explicit level. This is a psychological need for the ruling revolutionary guys or current government where independence is its major identity and claim although it is implicitly and expensively dependent on the support of Russia and China. Independence is also a part of identity of Iranian psychology; however the people are much wiser to play such hypocritical game. They love to have a better life , security and more freedom than stupid play of independence- as they did in the revelation. If they were supposed to be dependent, why they should depend on Russia that separated a big portion of their beloved country around two century ago and now sells its products in double price. USA is the best choice to have such a relation.

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But what a way to pose questions!
Posted by: talkville on Apr 6, 2008 4:08 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Should we Bomb Iran"? Just the title took me a while to digest: it is moral and ethical (there are distinctions!); it is militant and military (there ARE distinctions!); dare I say it's but a touch, a smidgin, Arrogant?

I hesitated. When confronted with a Question, which is THE confrontation I've had my entire self-conscious life, I of course am inclined to begin to formulate a response, thinking about it. I have to admit that my first, entirely black-humorish inclination was to blurt out an immediate answer: "well, no; why don't we just bomb El Salvador or Mexico or something? They're closer and it would be cheaper! But I bit my tongue -- it doesn't hurt any more, a callous has formed.

Imperial forces are on the move, aggressively. The best any human being can do is to oppose, refuse and reject war-making in particulars and generalities. Whence this propensity of more US citizens than one might care to admit to consider oneself superior, morally and ethically equipped and entitled to Judge? Whence this conception that the Cosmos, the Universe, the Planet and all upon it, including humans domestic and foreign exist for the purpose of increasing the growth of McDonnel-Douglas, Boeing, Exxon, IBM, Blackwater, and the myriad other parasites on the Public Host?

It's time to counter the Priest, the Soldier and the Businessman. Neither Fascism nor Imperialism will ever assure or bring liberty and, much more importantly, liberation. Let's try to be careful with the Should Questions and perhaps focus on the Is and Are ones-- they are sorely lacking in attention. It's sure looking like there are very powerful people who very literally want to re-capitulate and re-enact Armageddon and Apocalypse; they almost seem as though they're enjoying it immensely. Just how does Atavism work? That question looms larger and larger on my mind. I don't think Darwin would be sufficient in these matters.

Charleton Heston died today. Couldn't help the impulse and black-humorish tendency to utter: "now the Apes have one less to oppose them".

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Should it Really be a surprise to an Ameri-can't that people are nice
Posted by: DeaconJ on Apr 6, 2008 7:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If a war in Iraq is really unpopular. And now the home-equity wave is over. Will a war started during a economic recession in denial by major media be more popular? When gasoline shoots up to $10 a gallon and a box of khemical kellogg cereal cost the same will those same hateful minority of Clear Channel AM radio listeners put a fresh yellow magnet on their ailing 1999 Ford Excursion?

Americans are truly the meanest people in the world. That is why toursim is failing and Disney builds it's theme parks abroad. They know. Visiting America through TSA can be no different than entering a maximum security prison. Foreigners identities scrutinized and distrusted. Ameri-can'ts are like prisoners who have been incarcerated so long they believe anything the warden tells them.

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Sensible piece except
Posted by: fifthworld on Apr 6, 2008 7:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
for the enduring lie (official conspiracy theory) about 9/11 - c'mon Larry, you're a thinking man, why continue to be had?!

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» Listen, lunatic fringe . . . Posted by: Scientz
bozhidar bob balkas
Posted by: bozhidar on Apr 6, 2008 9:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
horrornaga portended more wars by US. aggression against vietnam, euphemistically called "vietnam war", also presaged more wars and not fewer, or no war. destruction of palestine by US/IOF was also ominous for lebanon and all asia. (india may b on side,tho)
aggression against iraqi people is a bad omen not only for syria, and iran but also china.
US' trek w. help from rich people to obtain the planet and to destroy socialism and unions is more than halfways to its final destination: wall of china.
the trek may bypass iran initially or until iran is ab. to manufacture a bomb or possess 1 already. then, US/EU will pounce on it and having now proof that iran h. a bomb would shout jubilantly, There u r; we were right; we have saved the world. will iran take the bait? i hope not. in any case, iran will b invaded and dismembered; to rise no more. thank u

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A good read, some minor points...
Posted by: audiodef on Apr 6, 2008 10:30 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A good article. I like the way Beinhart uses sarcasm. However, a few things...

"The United States was attacked on Sept. 11, 2001, by a ragged group of conspirators called Al Qaeda...".

Uh, no. We were attacked by our own government. Plenty of people know that history will bear this out.

"The notion that bombing Iran will make the people overthrow the Supreme Leader and the Council of Guardians makes as much sense as imagining that a new 9/11 will make the American people thank Al Qaeda for their inspiration, then rise up and overthrow our president and senate with a government more receptive to Islamic ways."

Good statement. I'd end it with "real democracy" instead of "Islamic ways".

"At least 56 countries have nuclear research reactors."

All I can say is... BOOM.

"I like to think that America can somehow overcome what's happened these last seven years. The unprovoked invasion of another country, the embrace of torture, the assault on civil liberties, the looting of our own economy, the failure to rescue the people of New Orleans and to rebuild it."

Again, it should factually be "the unprovoked invasion of the American people by its own government...". Otherwise, spot on!

"But bombing Iran because it postures and provokes on the world stage will be a disaster that we won't live down. We might try to say it's something that our leaders did, we had no part in it, we could not stop them. If that's true, and it may be true, that's sadder still."

I agree it would be the saddest thing in human history. But it's just not true. The People DO have the power. When the masses stop sniveling in fear, realising that a life of drudgery and pointless toil is no life at all, and take back their rights, there will be no way to stop them.

A good read, I enjoyed it.

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» I think . . . Posted by: Scientz
Iran is a "bogeyman" for the failed war in Iraq
Posted by: sofla100 on Apr 6, 2008 1:18 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The USA wants to bomb Iran essentially for the mistake GW Bush made by invading Iraq. The USA got rid of Saddam, Tehran's biggest enemy. Years of war couldn't do it. Now, Tehran and Baghdad are cozing up. Muslims who share much in common. Leaving Tel Aviv and Washington squealing. The only thing left for America now is to make Iran into a bogeyman. Despite having no nukes and no WMD programs, GW Bush would have you believe they are ready to start WWIII. With what, by throwing hand gernades or firing M-16's? It's all ridiculous. But, now the USA has nothing left (except to make a bogeyman) after handing Tehran such a great victory. So much for the wisdom of "pre-emptive" war.

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Federation of American Scientists tells us why America creates conflicts around the globe
Posted by: PakiBoy on Apr 6, 2008 8:39 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
US global Arms Sales

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the last 7 years?
Posted by: mateluna on Apr 7, 2008 1:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article good in presenting ironically the most common pretexts to invade Iran. However, the rebuttal was not as good.

You also did not mention, when talking about the Taliban and the support of Al Qaeda, the support of the US. Saying the US "remained neutral", is manipulating the truth. The US supported the fight against the soviets in Afghanistan in the 80s, and bred what we call today Al-Qaeda. A far cry from neutrality.

At the end, you state "I like to think that America can somehow overcome what's happened these last seven years. The unprovoked invasion of another country, the embrace of torture, the assault on civil liberties, the looting of our own economy, the failure to rescue the people of New Orleans and to rebuild it. Somehow".

I hope you understand that while these past 7 years have been horrible, they are not but one of the extremist manifestations of US foreign policy, of which there are many horrible examples.

And when you discussed (ironically) that Iran was more likely to use the nuclear weapons (that they do not have), you should have mentioned that, when it comes to intentions, and carrying those intentions out, there only one country in the history of mankind which has used nuclear weapons against innocent and defenseless civilians (twice). An act that continues to be one of the many unpunished crimes against humanity committed by that country.

This country calls itself the "beacon of democracy".

Any takers?

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The U.S. created Al CIAda in the 80's
Posted by: drfun on Apr 7, 2008 3:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
when Osma Bin Laden was described as a "Freedom Fighter" by Ronald Reagan.
The I hate *&($&* Arab post, is just another member of the Bu$h cabal who obviously feel the same with the illegal occupations in Afghanistan and Iraq and the farce "War on Terror". By killing innocent Muslims, one of the fastest growing ethnic groups in the world today, which threaten the NWO's agenda.
The U.S. has too much invested into its military industrial complex and needs to have an enemy in order to utilize this over-priced, debt-ridden resource, and Iran happens to be a sore spot in the PNAC membership who seek revenge from the Shah overthrow days.
A Confederate General Pike, who devised secret society's after the Civil War, predicted quite accurately 2 of the former world wars and foretells the 3rd would be Islam against Zionism, with its beginning around Basara, Iraq.
There is also the Biblical prophecies that play into some of these zealots substance abused (with multiple convictions) minds.
Throw in the NWO ideas of destroying the U.S. military capabilities and the $, which Bu$h is being most successful at.
Can bring one to the conclusion that it don't matter how hospitable the Iranians are, it's just a matter of when, not if they will be bombed.

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Good Article
Posted by: dowbuzzell on Apr 10, 2008 3:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
this was a excellent article. Thank-You...

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My Solution To All Problems
Posted by: TheWatchman on Apr 17, 2008 5:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hi.

I'm new here.

The only way we can be truely free is to bring down the laws Prisons Police Stations Boarders
Bills but not us with it.
Then and only then will we truely be free.

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