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Is There a Dark Side in All of Us?

By Elizabeth Heathcote, The Independent UK. Posted March 14, 2008.


Maverick academic Philip Zimbardo says we are all capable of evil. Is he right?
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On 28 April 2004, Philip Zimbardo was in Washington for a conference. The TV was on in his hotel room and photographs of the abuses carried out in Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq by U.S. servicemen and women flashed across the screen. The images are ingrained in our psyche now, but then they were new. Naked men stacked in a pyramid with soldiers grinning alongside. A female soldier leading a prisoner around on a dog leash. Prisoners forced to simulate sexual acts on each other. A prisoner in a hood balancing precariously on a box in the belief he would be electrocuted if he moved. Like millions of others, Zimbardo was deeply shocked by what he saw, but for the professor emeritus of psychology at Stanford University, California, there was a disturbing element of familiarity.

"I had taken similar images myself 30 years earlier," he says. "And by similar, I mean prisoners with bags over their heads, prisoners stripped naked, prisoners made to do sexually degrading activities. It was very disturbing. [The scenes at Abu Ghraib] recreated emotionally the horrible things I not only saw but that I allowed to continue to happen." The images he is referring to came from one of the most infamous episodes in American academic history, the Stanford Prison Experiment -- a study Zimbardo led in 1971 into the psychological and behavioral effects of imprisonment that swiftly descended into scenes of cruelty and degradation.

Zimbardo hoped he would never see Americans behave so abominably again. The shock of the Abu Ghraib scandal three years ago dashed that hope -- and prompted the then-71-year-old to come to the defense of one of those accused of the terrible crimes committed in the Iraqi prison.

What took place on a peaceful Californian university campus nearly four decades ago still has the power to disturb. Eager to explore the way that "situation" can impact on behavior, the young psychologist enrolled students to spend two weeks in a simulated jail environment, where they would randomly be assigned roles as either prisoners or guards.

Zimbardo's volunteers were bright, liberal young men of good character, brimming with opposition to the Vietnam war and authority in general. All expressed a preference to be prisoners, a role they could relate to better. Yet within days the strong, rebellious "prisoners" had become depressed and hopeless. Two broke down emotionally, crushed by the behavior of the "guards", who had embraced their authoritarian roles in full, some becoming ever-more sadistic, others passively accepting the abuses taking place in front of them.

Transcripts of the experiment, published in Zimbardo's book The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil, record in terrifying detail the way reality slipped away from the participants. On the first day -- Sunday -- it is all self-conscious play-acting between college buddies. On Monday the prisoners start a rebellion, and the guards clamp down, using solitary confinement, sleep deprivation and intimidation. One refers to "these dangerous prisoners". They have to be prevented from using physical force.

Control techniques become more creative and sadistic. The prisoners are forced to repeat their numbers over and over at roll call, and to sing them. They are woken repeatedly in the night. Their blankets are rolled in dirt and they are ordered painstakingly to pick them clean of burrs. They are harangued and pitted against one another, forced to humiliate each other, pulled in and out of solitary confinement.

On day four, a priest visits. Prisoner 819 is in tears, his hands shaking. Rather than question the experiment, the priest tells him, "You're going to have to get less emotional." Later, a guard leads the inmates in chanting "Prisoner 819 did a bad thing!" and blaming him for their poor conditions.

Zimbardo finds 819 covering his ears, "a quivering mess, hysterical", and says it is time to go home. But 819 refuses to leave until he has proved to his fellow prisoners that he isn't "bad". "Listen carefully to me, you're not 819," says Zimbardo. "You are Stewart and my name is Dr Zimbardo. I am a psychologist not a prison superintendent, and this is not a real prison."819 stops sobbing "and looks like a small child awakening from a nightmare", according to Zimbardo. But it doesn't seem to occur to him that things are going too far.

Guard Hellmann, leader of the night shift, plumbs new depths. He wakes up the prisoners to shout abuse in their faces. He forces them to play leapfrog dressed only in smocks, their genitals exposed. A new prisoner, 416, replaces 819, and brings fresh perspective. "I was terrified by each new shift of guards," he says. "I knew by the first evening that I had done something foolish to volunteer for this study."

The study is scheduled to run for two weeks. On the evening of Thursday, the fifth day, Zimbardo's girlfriend, Christina Maslach, also a psychologist, comes to meet him for dinner. She is confronted by a line of prisoners en route to the lavatory, bags over their heads, chained together by the ankles. "What you're doing to these boys is a terrible thing," she tells Zimbardo. "Don't you understand this is a crucible of human behavior?" he asks. "We are seeing things no one has witnessed before in such a situation." She tells him this has made her question their relationship, and the person he is.


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Some People Have The Courage To Stand Up Against The Evil
Posted by: opmoc on Mar 14, 2008 3:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If you can't see your own potential for evil ...
Posted by: nc green on Mar 14, 2008 5:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... you are doomed to act it out, willingly or unwillingly, consciously or unconsciously. George W. Bush is a perfect example. Do you think he sees the evil he perpetrates? Hardly.

All of us have the potential to do great evil or great good. We even have the potential to let go of concepts of good and evil and walk the path of enlightenment.

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sure do!
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy on Mar 14, 2008 5:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
look what we allow, in our name, to continue in iraq

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how obvious
Posted by: davidg on Mar 14, 2008 5:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why would this need a post? Of course!

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Bob
Posted by: shariavigilant on Mar 14, 2008 5:57 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If one can learn this important lesson, one is one step closer to thinking for themselves instead of following a utopian pipe dream that all people are inherently good.

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» RE: Freud? Posted by: Longdream
There is a long-term study that was done from the inside out ...
Posted by: TarryFaster on Mar 14, 2008 7:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
on the Nazis! Click here.

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» triple word score! Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
Another stupid test to justify............
Posted by: The Big Raven on Mar 14, 2008 7:27 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How we people can become un-human when given power over life . No suprize here since when did we teach our children to treat each other with true respect and compassion? Unless we call this cattling of children in schools or in front of the teevees life supporting education which will benifit all of humankind of course the fuckers will treat thier fellow humans like shit and abuse them its in this so-called "culture" of violence we all support in one way or another. No one is clean from this the dark side is now in-bred and I can prove it.
Being a REAL Native male gives me a veiw of these north amerikan cuntries that most of you dont even realies. I just laugh my ass off when you folks get soooooooo mad at israel for what they have done and are still doing and you PRETEND that in your country GOD has given YOU my land. And some how by being a white north american your better than others.
Now we all KNOW this is a LIE and when people have too live in a lie and even defend a lie they LOOSE thier conection to humanity and hence we end up treating each other like shit.
I tried to keep this simple if you do not beleive me go ask any grandmother or grandfather if living a lie can produce productive and friendly people and then you will understand and no god is not just yours.
Peace

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The Bad Example!
Posted by: williameon on Mar 14, 2008 7:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That is what we have now.
When you have Evil at the Top.
It flows through the whole system
From the top down.
It is obvious.
This is exactly what they want.
There are no accidents or coincidences here.
Everything is well planned,
Decades into the Future.
And the wheels are greased with BLOOD!

Hold on Carl!
I want to get off.

Things have gotten gradually worst over the last forty five years and
No body knows the difference.
Talk about cooking a frog in gradually boiling water.
Are you done yet?
I have news for you.
Your Goose is cooked!
Add to that long hours, higher prices and no health care
Workers are overworked and under paid.
People are suffering
Three jobs, no health care and in debt.
“Something uniquely American.”
Simple George said!

We are all being held captive by an Evil and Corrupt System.
BU__! SH__! Goes in and
BU__! SH__! Comes out.

They know exactly what they are doing.
The controllers that is.
They are using the most sophisticated
Mind control and conditioning techniques
Know to man or beast.

We are Prisoners in a sick experiment, living in a Rovian jail.
The Faux Media blasts out Garbage 24x7x forever!
The Bulls
Dead Eye and The Shrub
Torture and terrorize
The Prisoners
Feeding them sickening food as
Everything falls apart
You wonder why people are going Mad?
Is that what is troubling you Bud?
Turn it all off.
Shut the door.
Lock them out of your life.
Help create a new, better, separate reality.
Where people matter.

Look at the Zombies around you
Sleep walking to their death
Rats running on a tread mill
For their lives.
Is this fair and balanced?

It is an evil experiment.
Do you want to be like them?

Turn to the Positive.
Turn to the light.
Reaffirm our positive creative ideals and goals
They are the tools that can help get us
Out of this mess.
Have faith in yourself, family and neighbors.
Care about somebody!
It is our responsibility to change it.

Enough already!

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» RE: The Bad Example! Posted by: dave16
Most of Us
Posted by: Southern Gal on Mar 14, 2008 7:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most of us won't be in a situation where we will be exposed to our dark side and be allowed to inflict torture on others. We won't be part of an experiment or we won't be individual soldiers in the ongoing war against "terror". Collectively, how much responsibility do we carry as citizens of this country who are allowing our goverment and our military to engage in preemptive war for other countries resources and to put our soldiers into these "hard to tell who's the enemy" situations in fighting and the prisoner situations in places like Guantanamo and Abu Grabe?

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PART OF THE DARK SIDE IS A NEED TO PLEASE AUTHORITY
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Mar 14, 2008 7:47 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Acts of cruelty can be justified by credible motives. Proof of loyalty, love, higher purpose, etc. The girl in the famous Guantanamo picture didn't even have to be there. She was 'in love with' the officer. It was her way of impressing him. It helps not to have a conscience. At the very least failure to object to such practices means we're part of the way there. The line is very thin.This behavior does not exist in the animal world.Wonder why they know better. Thanks, ANNA

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» Tell that to my cat Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: Tell that to my cat Posted by: bittershaman
» RE: Untrue. Posted by: Longdream
Not A New Observation
Posted by: NoPCZone on Mar 14, 2008 9:52 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe the atheists are surprised, but this is nothing different than the concept of a human 'sin' nature.

Not advocating for or arguing against-- just observing and commenting.

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» RE: Not A New Observation Posted by: barryr
» RE: Not A New Observation Posted by: pdxlinuxchix
we all have a sin nature
Posted by: billwald on Mar 14, 2008 9:56 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The one Christian doctrine that is verified by history is that we all have a sin nature that contaminates us all, call it defective DNA if you wish. Civilized people fight against their sin nature and try to be good neighbors.

In 6000 years of history there is no evidence of humans becoming more moral creatures. We have learned to do our evil more efficiently and in a more sanitary way.

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» RE: we all have a sin nature Posted by: Longdream
What are the most savage, ferocious
Posted by: willymack on Mar 14, 2008 10:08 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Creatures in the world? Leopards? Bears? Sharks? Wolverines? To answer this question, all you need to do is find the nearest mirror. This ferocity probably came in handy when we were still being chased by sabretooth cats or mammoths, but became obsolete when we invented "civilization", or did it?

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The banality of evil
Posted by: joeunix on Mar 14, 2008 10:26 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Banality of Evil is a phrase coined in 1963 by Hannah Arendt in her work Eichmann in Jerusalem. It describes the thesis that the great evils in history generally--and the Holocaust in particular--were not executed by fanatics or psychopaths, but rather by ordinary people who accepted the premises of official propaganda, and therefore, participated in horrendous acts of repression and violence with the view that their actions were normal.

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» RE: The banality of evil Posted by: Cathyc
» Hannah Arendt is evil????? Posted by: joeunix
» RE: No. Posted by: Longdream
Inherent depravity
Posted by: greatferm on Mar 14, 2008 10:34 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wish I could remember the name of the Philosophy professor who said "The only theological position which can be absolutely established is the one about the inherent depravity of man".

Philip Zimbardo, and Thomas Hobbes, should be required reading for every legislator everywhere, with continuing education to make sure they were always in the forefront of the mind. You want to deny what they say, but, honestly, you can't.

Everyone I know in criminal justice reform work knows all about the Stanford Prison Experiment. We cite it tiresomely, but the public doesn't care. Prisoners are not a political force, they do not vote, or contribute, or have lobbyists, they are permanently discredited, voiceless, and the public does not want to hear about them, they are to be kept off the streets and out of sight and they deserve it.

But don't blame the system for causing this, it is IN US, not a consequence of the system.

If anyone cared, things could be changed, and the methods of making the changes are well known and obvious, just get any group of thinking individuals together and ask them "Suppose your child gets arrested for a serious crime, what could be done about it, short of imprisonment ?" Last time I did it, we got 25 alternatives before we ran out of time.

You can solve it with a simple problem-solving approach, like an engineer. You can solve it with a medical approach, like a doctor. You can solve it with a sociological approach, or ministerial.

But we are addicted, to punishment, and deeply in denial.

As Judge James Gray pointed out years ago, there is reason to lock some people up, because they are dangerous, but we are locking people up because we're mad at them.

Then we go to such lengths to develop, nurture, care for and feed a criminal subculture. Look at any of the documentaries on prisons, see how the hothouse is maintained and cultured. Containment is all, rehabilitation is a cynical joke. If they are not of the criminal culture when they enter, we do all possible to convert them, then we structure their release so as to maximize their potential for returning.

The Criminal-Industrial Complex. There is money to be made, and the subsidies of fear are endless. Cut the schools of you must, but maintain the prisons at whatever the cost. What a business model !
When you can give the public what it wants, and make lots of money doing it, what's not to like ? Problem = Profits

The surgery was successful, although the patient died, but successful because the Doctor got paid, and there will be an endless and growing supply of new patients.

None of this is news. Every year, there are dozens of books about criminal justice reform, all saying basically the same thing, in overwhelming detail, from many points of view. The so called criminal so called justice so called system is a mess, probably unreformable, hopeless, destructive, counterproductive.

But nothing changes, unless it gets worse. Fear rules us all.

Homo Sapiens: the only species ever to go extinct by choice.

greatferm

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War IS Hell
Posted by: QQOblivion on Mar 14, 2008 10:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The abuses at Abu Ghraib, the private contractors going around and randomly shooting civilians, the rapes, the murder of innocents, all the atrocities occurring in Iraq and Afghanistan -- these are inevitable whenever one goes to war. Keep this in mind, America, before you start another war based only on lies!

By the way, I know we ALL have the capacity for evil. But the question is, do Bush and Cheney have the capacity for GOOD? I have seen no evidence at all to support that they do.

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» RE: War IS Hell Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: War IS Hell Posted by: Longdream
Is There a Dark Side in All of Us?
Posted by: Sir Jim on Mar 14, 2008 11:03 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What a Relief - sort of. During the trials of those poor kids caught up and scapegoated for Abu Ghraib, I nearly blew a fuse up up here in Canada.

I wrote everyone in authority, media outlets and the defense atorneysd reminding them of the "Standford Experiments". This was an exact duplicate! I wondered if Zimbardo & Milgram were dead. To learn they were on the barricades was a great relief.

I had studied both in an undergrad Psychology course and even viewed the films. I did not, for a minute, doubt, at the time, the outcome - history is rife with examples.

Some of those kids I understood to be Militia, and not properly-trained Marines - professional soldiers.

I could not believe that the U.S. would be ignorant enough to forget, and defence counsel incompetent enough not to use, those experiments to provide extenuating circumstances - if not to get a "not guilty" finding.

This did not diminish my profound regret for the prisoners, nor for those I had seen online being treated a hell of a lot worse by their own countrymen.

I remember thinking, where are the professors, are people's memories so short? We have seen this before and it is always the lowest on the totem pole who pay the price.

One letter I wrote matched the conditions in Abu exactly step-by-step with Zimbardo's Experiment - and NOBODY would touch it!

I have recently learned that only 1% of the people of Europe tried to help Jews and the forgotten others destined for the camps - a million others went as well - in WWII. In our society (and others), truth is as scarce as hens' teeth.

It was such a relief to read that Zimbardo had come forward, and was active. That was not public - to my knowledge - or I wouldn't have been jumping up and down until the point at which it became obvious I too was being ignored.

Another damn show trial - using young and expendable kids - how many more must we see?

There is not one of them who should be in jail - they should be released and debriefed about what happened to them - right now.

Bush has the right to pardon prisoners - if I understand the US System correctly - when he leaves office. US citizens should begin now to lobby for the release of the so-called perpetrators at Abu.

People have recently come to confuse blogging with action. It's time for the professors, lawyers and people familiar with those experiments to get onto Bush's radar - make that poor silly man understand.

Lord Jim

PS

On a US channel some time ago, I saw a situation in which a Navy Commando ought to have been given a postumous medal. Surrounded by forces of the other side, all of his comrades killed around him - they had been caught and cut off on some sort of mission - he was shown being coaxed and baited out of his hiding place.

Can you imagine what his fate would have been? How many of us would not have surrendered. He kept blasting away until they got him.

If that was not bravery above and beyond, and deserving of a medal, what is? If you are going to crucify your troops for what they do wrong, you should reward the ones who perform to professional standards and beyond. Such actions can be overlooked in battle, but this act of heroism - however right or wrong you deem the cause - was on TV! It has been a senseless war, but there have been acts, no doubt on both sides, of courage, compassion and bravery that do provide hope in the face of over-arching evil.

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» RE: Is There a Dark Side in All of Us? Posted by: DonnaSchlesinger
An Evil Nation: America is Seen with Laughter Now When She Tries to Talk Human Rights
Posted by: sofla100 on Mar 14, 2008 11:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The disdain the world has for the USA with Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo is not so much that the USA does these things. I mean, lots of other countries have or still do practice torture and arbitrary detentions. But what they especially do not like is the "USA lecturing them," about human rights. I just read a scathing comment about Bush and the USA by the Russian Foreign Minister. Seems the State Dept. issued a highly critical report of Russia and her manipulation of elections. But, this minister said what right does the USA have to lecture us, when the USA has "legalized torture," and "committed atrocities in Iraq?" I think most everyone in the world can understand that human beings can engage in some very bad behaviors. But, when we have religious preachers or government officials that preach morality (like Spitzer and Bush) and their behavior displays immorality on a grand scale, they lose all the respect, even if it was previously very little, that they once had. It would be so much better if Bush were to come out and admit the USA uses torture, arbitrary detentions, illegal wiretaps, extraordinary renditions, all as common practice in its so called "war against terror," instead of saying "the USA does not torture." Especially when he just vetoed a bill to outlaw waterboarding.

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Torture now an exciting TV show
Posted by: barryr on Mar 14, 2008 11:58 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On Fox, of course

Here's a Mother Jones article about Fox reality show: http://tinyurl.com/yvkt6o


We talk about the Stanford Prison Experiment and Abu Ghraib as if they are remote things that have only a hypothetical relationship to us. We say with hypothetical humility that we don't know if we would do any "better" if thrown into such a situation.

But we ARE in such a situation. We are in the process of becoming comfortable with the idea of torture, and using new, more elaborate definitions to allow torture to happen while telling ourselves that we are still "better" than that. We watch Jack Bauer torture terrorists, we watch Fox torture contestants for ratings, we watch outrage about Abu Ghraib in congress blunted into a bill-and-veto process which makes torture legal. We are in the process of accepting a new normal.

We wonder how we would do if we were assigned the role of prisoner and how we would do with the role of guard. But we have been assigned a role: onlooker.

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» RE: Tsk Tsk, Cathy Posted by: Longdream
Human Rights? Who said it is easy being human?
Posted by: Sojourner on Mar 14, 2008 12:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Human rights are only as good as their enforcement. Otherwise they are just nice ideas.

Enforcement is only as good as its peer review (in courts of law). Without regular peer review enforcers become at least tempted to "do a better job." And an enforcer's better job is always more force. So the question is not whether we always face the danger of overzealous force. The question is whether we accept the necessary mechanisms of correction and limitation on force.

Built into our Bill of Rights is the recognition that there are no "final" solutions. Nothing is final except death, and every advocate of finality, who would close off alternatives, exemplifies Freud's thanatos, the death instinct.

The Bill of Rights is not some academic paper. It grew out of long generations of transmitted experience with authority. Authority is a necessary evil, and if we forget that it is always evil as well as always necessary, the result is predictable. "Question Authority" even when it is held by doctors and psychologists and clergy or the "questioners" themselves.

The best thing I have read recently is from Derrida's "Acts of Religion" where he reviews Walter Benjamin's papers on force. For all Benjamin's (pre-WWII) insight into force, he pursues a fixed finalty that makes him a victim of his own stubborness. No one ever said it is easy being human

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Definitions
Posted by: Ahimsa on Mar 14, 2008 2:36 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've had this itch since I was first confronted with the rhetoric about "evil", so popular in the US.
It is interesting to me that evil keeps being refered to as "a force", as in Star Wars: an entity or energy that pre-exists the deed, even the doer.
Could we say that evil is produced under certain circumstances, through actions that lead to a particular set of consequences that produce suffering?
Defining the animal should be the first thing. It is dangerous to assume that it is a force, a being that needs to be fought or an innate characteristc of our race (the human...)
If we were to go down to nitty gritty definitions, could we equate evil to suffering, or that which produces suffering?
Otherwise we fall in relativisms of who is this thing evil to?
This line of thought would point at the issue of awareness of one's actions and of their consequences.
But it is easier to invoke satan, lucifer or baal as external factors, the same way as it is to point fingers at the "evil doers"
Look at the world around, "evil" appears when circumstances are fertile for it. Evil is not human, it is an abstraction, what is human is the capacity of cahnging our behaviour at will in order to avoid harming each other, in order to avoid "evil".
Hmmm, it is hard to articulate (pardon my clumsyness) but it seems that this popular wisdom is not so wise after all...
Let's step out of the judeo-christian-muslim paradigm for second, can we?

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» RE: Definitions Posted by: bittershaman
Is he right?
Posted by: MobileSucks on Mar 14, 2008 4:54 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
LOL.

No sweet hearts, your liberal angels capable of no wrong.

I'd say chances are YOU are probably pretty evil already. On your own terms. And you very well might not know it. Or you may. But I'd venture to say if you are a progressive, broadly defined, and your even remotely living an "average" American lifestyle -- your a real bad person.

Our society is evil. What is often considered as normal, acceptable behavior, therefore, is evil.

This scientist is talking about _abnormal_ shittyness for the most part, yes? Well, that's fine and fascinating and we can better understand social psychology, but it's worth realizing and remembering that the nuts are already running the nut house.

By the way, I'm for one getting more worried about these last months of the Bush Administration.

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Cripes I wish Zimbardo would shut up
Posted by: drmeow on Mar 14, 2008 7:17 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There were fundamental flaws to the Stanford Prison Experiment including giving different instructions to the guards vs the prisoners and a self selection process which may have lead to some of the worst abuses.

Zimbardo has milked that one experiment for his entire career and it violated some fundamental experimental criteria. Furthermore, unlike a mature scientist who accepts new data as advancing the field, Zimbardo simply attacks any studies that fail to replicate his findings (and there are some). He's an arrogant narcissist (like many academics, especially those in psychology) who I wish would just GO AWAY.

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Moral relativism
Posted by: YogiBear on Mar 14, 2008 8:29 PM   
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We are all animals and all capable of reverting to a more basic nature. Combine that with skewed societal demands and expectations and it's no wonder we act out in absurd ways when left to ourselves. The church always claims it's the humanists and "moral relativists" who have a moral failing, but I think it's the opposite (or often the opposite): those who insist on moral absolutes, I think, are the most susceptible to degradation.

Tell people not to think for themselves; tell them to believe in good and evil (their commanders being the good, of course) and you set them up to crack when incidents occur that strain those beliefs.

I've always been of the belief that moral absolutism is just moral relativism in a different form -- you make justifications for what you will believe and not believe based on arbitrary sets of data. You believe in equal rights, but not for gays. You're against abortion, but find ways to justify bombs dropped carelessly onto school children's heads in war, or justify torturing men of other cultures. You believe in freedom of speech, but seek to keep that speech from being spoken in places your own family can hear or see it.

Moral absolutes might be good for (and possibly necessary for) setting up and securing the basic framework of society, hierarchal guideposts to follow to keep a people operating under the same laws and pretenses, but make them out of stone and that's where the problems always kick in.

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Denial is no pretext
Posted by: talkville on Mar 15, 2008 4:09 AM   
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Ignoring the work and findings of psychology over these last couple of hundred years belies a perilous social and cultural atmosphere we're currently in. "The road to hell....."

"Consciousness is a surface" said Nietzsche (a profound psychologist and empiricist! a scientist!). Below the surface it's still dark, murky, vague, mis-understood. It's dark all right! It's prudent to have awareness of findings such as those of Zimbardo's and many, many others. The vast range of human capacities and capabilities and 'competencies' is no cause for hubris, especially today. Our capacities for cruelty are un-equaled in other species, and there's many a historical time when such capacities were labeled as 'good' or 'for your own good'. The worst thing is denial and considering one-self as 'a Good Man or Woman' and acting under such warrant.

There's a bit of 'bad-apple' in each one of us just as those lowest-ranked scapegoats of Abu Ghraib had, and it's uncomfortably easy to fall into actions of that nature ("for the Greater Good?).

It's best to struggle to understand these things in ourselves first. Then, perhaps, we can walk together carefully and slowly and seek a more just, more dignified, more equitable way of living, away from our animalic nature towards a truly human one. We are making the future right now; we can certainly make a better one than this, Darwin and Spencer notwithstanding.

It would be foolish and faith-based to deny a darker side in ourselves; there is great need not of fear but of courage these days and first of all in ourselves as human individuals. A better world is possible.

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Frame "Evil" As The Animal Brain We All Possess
Posted by: drricklippin on Mar 15, 2008 6:09 AM   
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Commenter YogiBear saya above "we are all animals".

Yogi is right in part because our brain cortex which has a superego and is capable of giving us "goodness" can in times of stress or for other reasons be overridden by our animal parts of our brain which has no sense of right or wrong or morality or ethics.These are human constructs.We do not need discussions of God or Lucifer to drive the dialogue.

The animal brain knows one thing - survive to reproduce

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton, Pa

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time to face the t ruth.......
Posted by: using on Mar 15, 2008 11:16 AM   
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we may all have evil in us....but....all evil is not equal......

the german soldiers who caught the fever of Hitler and carried out his orders....are NOT on the same level as Hitler and his gang.

The leaders of industry and government in Germany and arround the world who helped bring Hitler to power and supported him....knowing what he was...and readily agreeing t o rid themselves of him and his lowly gang of monsters as soon as he brought Germany (which means their industry and economy) back to glory, and who were in the process, willingly permitting the robbery, enslavement and murder of millions upon millions of people....that is an evil far outweighing even Hitler's released craziness upon the world. And the tragidy.....is that Cain's evil..which are in different doses made possible by most of the Abel's....are reborn in each society that we rebuilt with our ingenuity and creativity and hard work.
The time has come for those who are capable of sight.... to acknowledge the underpinnings of our disgraceful truth, as the psychologist of the study that took place in the college that simulated a prison did, and figure out how we can group together to control evil while helping human nature evolve to a higher self. And with our disregard for the survival of life on this planet, and the corp stranglehold on the world economy, we are quickly running out of time.

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Can anyone stand up to torture?
Posted by: holojojo on Mar 16, 2008 5:10 PM   
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Evil as a concept doesn't draw me much.I'd like to think I was immune to what I've decided to call "evil". My Grandfather served in India and was captured and tortured. He gave me a tip I'll never forget; tell them everything, as quickly as you can, because no-one can resist having their skin ripped off. Mind you, he was a POW in Burma. He told me one thing, though, one thing; that you'll confess to anything if someone's ripping your balls off, and there's no way you should feel bad about doing it. So my answer is no, nobody can or should or need to stand up to torture - and shame on anyone who thinks it's a valid or reliable source of information. Grotesque, America, vile - get rid of Bush!

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