COMMENTS: 83
Is There a Dark Side in All of Us?
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"I had taken similar images myself 30 years earlier," he says. "And by similar, I mean prisoners with bags over their heads, prisoners stripped naked, prisoners made to do sexually degrading activities. It was very disturbing. [The scenes at Abu Ghraib] recreated emotionally the horrible things I not only saw but that I allowed to continue to happen." The images he is referring to came from one of the most infamous episodes in American academic history, the Stanford Prison Experiment -- a study Zimbardo led in 1971 into the psychological and behavioral effects of imprisonment that swiftly descended into scenes of cruelty and degradation.
Zimbardo hoped he would never see Americans behave so abominably again. The shock of the Abu Ghraib scandal three years ago dashed that hope -- and prompted the then-71-year-old to come to the defense of one of those accused of the terrible crimes committed in the Iraqi prison.
What took place on a peaceful Californian university campus nearly four decades ago still has the power to disturb. Eager to explore the way that "situation" can impact on behavior, the young psychologist enrolled students to spend two weeks in a simulated jail environment, where they would randomly be assigned roles as either prisoners or guards.
Zimbardo's volunteers were bright, liberal young men of good character, brimming with opposition to the Vietnam war and authority in general. All expressed a preference to be prisoners, a role they could relate to better. Yet within days the strong, rebellious "prisoners" had become depressed and hopeless. Two broke down emotionally, crushed by the behavior of the "guards", who had embraced their authoritarian roles in full, some becoming ever-more sadistic, others passively accepting the abuses taking place in front of them.
Transcripts of the experiment, published in Zimbardo's book The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil, record in terrifying detail the way reality slipped away from the participants. On the first day -- Sunday -- it is all self-conscious play-acting between college buddies. On Monday the prisoners start a rebellion, and the guards clamp down, using solitary confinement, sleep deprivation and intimidation. One refers to "these dangerous prisoners". They have to be prevented from using physical force.
Control techniques become more creative and sadistic. The prisoners are forced to repeat their numbers over and over at roll call, and to sing them. They are woken repeatedly in the night. Their blankets are rolled in dirt and they are ordered painstakingly to pick them clean of burrs. They are harangued and pitted against one another, forced to humiliate each other, pulled in and out of solitary confinement.
On day four, a priest visits. Prisoner 819 is in tears, his hands shaking. Rather than question the experiment, the priest tells him, "You're going to have to get less emotional." Later, a guard leads the inmates in chanting "Prisoner 819 did a bad thing!" and blaming him for their poor conditions.
Zimbardo finds 819 covering his ears, "a quivering mess, hysterical", and says it is time to go home. But 819 refuses to leave until he has proved to his fellow prisoners that he isn't "bad". "Listen carefully to me, you're not 819," says Zimbardo. "You are Stewart and my name is Dr Zimbardo. I am a psychologist not a prison superintendent, and this is not a real prison."819 stops sobbing "and looks like a small child awakening from a nightmare", according to Zimbardo. But it doesn't seem to occur to him that things are going too far.
Guard Hellmann, leader of the night shift, plumbs new depths. He wakes up the prisoners to shout abuse in their faces. He forces them to play leapfrog dressed only in smocks, their genitals exposed. A new prisoner, 416, replaces 819, and brings fresh perspective. "I was terrified by each new shift of guards," he says. "I knew by the first evening that I had done something foolish to volunteer for this study."
The study is scheduled to run for two weeks. On the evening of Thursday, the fifth day, Zimbardo's girlfriend, Christina Maslach, also a psychologist, comes to meet him for dinner. She is confronted by a line of prisoners en route to the lavatory, bags over their heads, chained together by the ankles. "What you're doing to these boys is a terrible thing," she tells Zimbardo. "Don't you understand this is a crucible of human behavior?" he asks. "We are seeing things no one has witnessed before in such a situation." She tells him this has made her question their relationship, and the person he is.
Downstairs, Guard Hellmann is yelling at the prisoners. "See that hole in the ground? Now do 25 push-ups, fucking that hole. You hear me?" Three prisoners are forced to be "female camels", bent over, their naked bottoms exposed. Others are told to "hump" them and they simulate sodomy. Zimbardo ends the experiment the following morning.
To read the transcripts or watch the footage is to follow a rapid and dramatic collapse of human decency, resilience and perspective. And so it should be, says Zimbardo. "Evil is a slippery slope," he says. "Each day is a platform for the abuses of the next day. Each day is only slightly worse than the previous day. Once you don't object to those first steps it is easy to say, 'Well, it's only a little worse then yesterday.' And you become morally acclimatised to this kind of evil."
The parallels to atrocities of this and the last century -- atrocities we believe we are distanced from -- are glaring. The behavior of ordinary Germans under the Nazis. The slaughter of Tutsis by their neighbors, the Hutus, in Rwanda. How vulnerable are we to emulating such murderous behavior in similarly extreme circumstances? Very, says Zimbardo. "We are unaware of how much our behavior is influenced by situations, as the situations we are in are usually benign. The Stanford experiment looks at what happens when you put people in a totally new situation, where they don't have habitual coping mechanisms. So they look around. What are other people doing? What is the appropriate way to behave in this new place? If you are a guard, the appropriate way to behave is to demonstrate that the prisoners are powerless and you are powerful."
The seeds of Zimbardo's research were planted in his childhood. Born in 1933 in the Bronx, he lived there until he was 23. "It was and is one of the worst ghettos in America," he says. "I knew good kids who went bad, who ran drugs and got in trouble, went to jail and got killed. And there were other kids who didn't. So I wondered, what makes good people go bad?"
The Stanford experiment caused a media storm and Zimbardo became a star, of sorts. He wrote about it and lectured on it, and life moved on. He married Christina Maslach and the couple had two daughters. His professional gaze turned to other themes, inspired by Stanford. He researched shyness -- "a psychological prison" -- and set up a clinic to treat it. He worked on time perspective ("a day in the experiment began to feel like several days"). And in 2002 he was elected president of the American Psychological Association. Stanford had long been "laid to rest." But when he saw the Abu Ghraib pictures, the past was stirred up again.
"When the American military and Bush administration immediately distanced themselves by saying Abu Ghraib was the work of a few bad apples, I was suspicious," he says. "I knew that in the Stanford experiment, I began with good apples and that it was the place that corrupted them, so my hypothesis was that maybe these soldiers were good apples and it was the barrel at Abu Ghraib that corrupted them."
His response was twofold. First, he went back to the 12 hours of videotape he had from the Stanford Prison Experiment, reviewed it with his students, and made full transcripts. "I decided I really had to present it in great detail because the evil was in the words. It was in how the guards created a psychological system that crushed the prisoners."
Second, he agreed to appear as an expert witness for one of the defendants in the Abu Ghraib trial, Staff Sergeant ' Ivan "Chip" Frederick II. Frederick was the military policeman in charge of the night shift on tiers 1A and 1B, the site of the abuses, and features in some of the pictures.
Zimbardo threw himself into the case, counseling Frederick and his wife. He sought out and examined Frederick's records (unstinting dedication in the service of his country and family). He had Frederick undergo psychological tests (good man vulnerable to isolation, strong desire for approval). He investigated Abu Ghraib, and the conditions there. He made presentations to Frederick's military trial -- but to little or no effect: Frederick was convicted of five charges of abusing Iraqi detainees and received an eight-year sentence.
"There was a real injustice," says Zimbardo. "Colonel Larry James, a psychologist sent to Abu Ghraib to fix it, said that 50 times he was within 100 yards of being blown up or shot. It was 130 degrees. There was feces everywhere; rats running around; 1,000 prisoners, many naked; people screaming. It was hell." Frederick, he explains, worked 12-hour shifts in these conditions without a night off in 40 days. When he finished his shift he would sleep in a cell, "so he was always in prison". Not once in three months did a senior officer come down to his area, says Zimbardo.
In Level 1A, the interrogation center run by the CIA, military intelligence and civilian contractors were looking for information on the insurgency and getting nowhere. They put pressure on Frederick's team to "take the gloves off and soften the prisoners up", says Zimbardo. There is some evidence, he adds, "that the early pictures were staged" so they could show them to other detainees before their interrogation. "Once they got permission to break those prisoners and take those pictures, you have unleashed the dogs."
The sexual abuse was the next stage. "When you have a unit of men and women soldiers, and hundreds of prisoners running around naked, there is a sexual dynamic. Some of those soldiers are having sex with each other, and some of the people arrested were prostitutes. It was a lawless hell.
"When you ask Chip why he did these terrible things, he says 'I don't know what came over me.' He had lost his reason, perspective and judgment. If you had any sense of reason, you would never put yourself in the picture. You are making yourself accused. What were they thinking to do that? The answer is that they weren't thinking."
With Abu Ghraib, Zimbardo extended his theories beyond the "situation" to the "system" that created it. "I would point the finger as high as [President] Bush. With his excessive focus on fear of terrorism, with the lawyers who legalize the definition of torture, he creates the system."
In both situations -- and in others where abuse escalates -- Zimbardo isolates common factors. The first is "deindividuation": the perpetrators become anonymous and stop acting as individuals. The guards in Abu Ghraib were in the habit of removing identifying details on their uniforms; the Stanford experiment guards wore mirrored sunglasses that hid their eyes. The second factor is dehumanization: the prisoners in both situations were seen as hostile and "other". Their physical condition was poor, they smelt, and they were often naked -- like animals. Third, such abuse requires bystander apathy -- the failure of the majority who may not be actively involved to do anything to stop it.
The pressure to go along with the escalation of abuse is huge, says Zimbardo, and would claim most of us. "We all have this egocentric bias to say, 'I would be the hero, I would blow the whistle,'" he says. "But other things being equal, you would do what they did. Though there are always a few who resist. And that is the hope of humankind."
Usually the whistleblower is an outsider, who views the situation with fresh eyes. In his experiment it was Christina. At Abu Ghraib it was 24-year-old reservist Joe Darby, who was shown images of the abuses by a fellow soldier.
At first he thought they were "pretty funny", but found he "could not stop thinking about it". He said that what was happening "violated everything I believed personally". After three agonizing days of feeling torn between loyalty to his friends and to his moral conscience, Darby blew the whistle.
Zimbardo is now researching heroes such as Darby, "ordinary people who do extraordinary things when other people are doing bad or doing nothing". His findings so far indicate that there is nothing in background, belief or personality that would predict who these people will be. The only certain thing, he says, is that "heroes are always deviants": they always question authority. "We just did a study in Italy, where we put people in a situation when authority makes you do something bad, to see who defied. Nothing we measured before would have predicted the outcome. All the people who defied could say is that they were more concerned about this other person than about the experiment or the authority. They showed an ability to empathize."
Most of us live in happy denial; we are never tested. I wonder how it must feel to have been tested as Zimbardo was, and to have been found wanting. He got caught up in the Stanford experiment; enmeshed in the values of the false system he had created, manipulative in protecting it, seemingly impervious to the suffering in front of him.
As a teenager Zimbardo read J.M. Barrie's Admiral Crichton -- the tale of the silent, honorable butler transformed into a leader when the family he works for are marooned on a desert island, had a big effect. "It was one of the early awarenesses I had of the power of the situation." But this awareness did little to affect his own behavior. "Did [Stanford] change my sense of myself? Absolutely. I grew up with the police as the enemy, they're never for you. And I become that thing that all my life I am against.
"At the time, you are not shocked, you are embedded in the situation. There's no guilt, no remorse, because there's no perspective. Afterwards, of course, I was ashamed. I had changed within five days. That is the more powerful lesson of the experiment than how the guards got into it: they were kids, I was a grown-up."
The Stanford Prison Experiment is one of very few academic studies to have made it into the public consciousness. I ask Dr Peter Banister, head of psychology at Manchester Metropolitan University and an expert in prisons, how it is regarded within the discipline. He says it is seen as important, but not necessarily for its findings. "In hindsight it is viewed as being ethically dubious; it is regularly used now in exercises concerning ethical problems in psychology."
"At the time there was no criticism," says Zimbardo. "It was a different era. If I had done the study right now, there is no question that I would be sued by every guard and every prisoner. These studies are in ethical time capsules. They cannot be done in a legitimate way now. In fact, the pendulum has gone so far in the other direction, you can't even ask questions that might be stressful. So my feelings are mixed. Do I want to be part of an infamous study? No."
Zimbardo and his wife live in a four-story house overlooking San Francisco Bay, on the famous Lombard Street. Tourists flock outside, and it is all brightness and light, a long way from evil. The lighthouse beam from Alcatraz Prison, out in the bay, shines into his living-room. "[Stanford] was a little week-long study," he says, "but it has affected my whole life."
'The Lucifer Effect' by Philip Zimbardo (Rider, £8.99) is published in paperback on Thursday
Our dark materials: When the Lucifer Effect strikes
The Milgram Experiment
In the 1960s, Yale psychologist Stanley Milgram explored people's willingness to inflict pain on others when ordered to do so. A subject was ordered by a "teacher" in a lab coat to administer increasingly powerful electric shocks to a "learner" whenever the learner answered a question incorrectly (teacher and learner were role-playing and no shocks were administered). When the learner started screaming from pain, many subjects questioned whether to carry on, but most continued after being assured they would not be held accountable. Milgram carried out his first experiment three months after the start of the trial of Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann. As Milgram put it, "Could it be that Eichmann and his million accomplices in the Holocaust were just following orders? Could we call them all accomplices?"
Deepcut barracks deaths
Between 1995 and 2002, four young army recruits -- Sean Benton, Cheryl James, Geoff Gray and James Collinson -- were found dead as a result of bullet wounds at Princess Royal Barracks in Deepcut, Surrey. The army said the wounds that caused their deaths were self-inflicted while on sentry duty. A BBC Panorama documentary in 2002 then put forward what it claimed was evidence of systematic beatings and abuse at the barracks, alleging that the camp was "dominated by fear, violence and sexual harassment". The possibility of a public inquiry was ruled out. An independent review in 2006 criticised the mistreatment of trainees at Deepcut, but concluded that the deaths were self-inflicted.
Russian Army brutalities
In 2006, Sergeant Alexander Sivyakov of the Russian Army was convicted of beating an 18-year-old private in his care so badly that his legs and genitals had to be removed. The case outraged Russian society, leading to calls for the government to end its policy of national service. In 2004, the Human Rights Watch published a lengthy report about abuses in the army, in which it is alleged that senior NCOs brutally "initiate" new recruits by dedovshchina ("The rule of the grandfathers"). According to The New York Times, at least 292 Russian soldiers were killed by dedovshchina in 2005 and there were 3,500 reports of abuse. The Russian military concedes that 16 of the recruits were murdered, but says the remainder committed suicide. The office of Russia's chief military prosecutor claimed the army was working hard to stamp out abuse.
Welsh children's homes abuse scandal
In February 2000, the North Wales children's homes inquiry, headed by Ronald Waterhouse QC, led to the publication of "The Waterhouse Report", which uncovered one of the 20th century's biggest British child-abuse scandals. It alleged that at least 650 children had been abused in homes in Clwyd and Gwynedd in the 1970s and 1980s. The report also suggested the Welsh Social Services Inspectorate had carried out checks on only five homes over seven years, and noted that complaints were generally dismissed, police investigations poorly carried out and appeals to government ministers ignored. In the wake of the report, it was estimated that 100 people were prosecuted for abusing children in their care, and around 50 more were investigated. At least 12 of the abused children committed suicide, while many more lived troubled lives. Victims included Steven Messham, who claimed to have been abused by over 40 people at the Bryn Estyn children's home in Wrexham. He has since spent much of his life in psychiatric hospitals.
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Posted by: opmoc on Mar 14, 2008 3:06 AM
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BBC Documentary About The Origins Of The War on Terror
MTV Commercial The Holocaust Happenned To People Like Us
Saturday 15 March, the fifth anniversary of the Iraq invasion, will see a day of global protests
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» Evil is not innate. Nobody is born evil.
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Evil is not innate. Nobody is born evil.
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: nc green on Mar 14, 2008 5:17 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All of us have the potential to do great evil or great good. We even have the potential to let go of concepts of good and evil and walk the path of enlightenment.
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» RE: If you can't see your own potential for evil ...
Posted by: Pop
» RE: Your might call it the "Wolf Factor" innate in us.
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: KaptainSpiffy on Mar 14, 2008 5:19 AM
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Posted by: davidg on Mar 14, 2008 5:25 AM
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Posted by: shariavigilant on Mar 14, 2008 5:57 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Bob - what happened to you as an infant?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Freud?
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: TarryFaster on Mar 14, 2008 7:07 AM
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» triple word score!
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: There is a long-term study that was done from the inside out ...
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: The Big Raven on Mar 14, 2008 7:27 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Being a REAL Native male gives me a veiw of these north amerikan cuntries that most of you dont even realies. I just laugh my ass off when you folks get soooooooo mad at israel for what they have done and are still doing and you PRETEND that in your country GOD has given YOU my land. And some how by being a white north american your better than others.
Now we all KNOW this is a LIE and when people have too live in a lie and even defend a lie they LOOSE thier conection to humanity and hence we end up treating each other like shit.
I tried to keep this simple if you do not beleive me go ask any grandmother or grandfather if living a lie can produce productive and friendly people and then you will understand and no god is not just yours.
Peace
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» Living a Lie - its what MOST people do.
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Another stupid test to justify............
Posted by: Gretchen360
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Posted by: williameon on Mar 14, 2008 7:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When you have Evil at the Top.
It flows through the whole system
From the top down.
It is obvious.
This is exactly what they want.
There are no accidents or coincidences here.
Everything is well planned,
Decades into the Future.
And the wheels are greased with BLOOD!
Hold on Carl!
I want to get off.
Things have gotten gradually worst over the last forty five years and
No body knows the difference.
Talk about cooking a frog in gradually boiling water.
Are you done yet?
I have news for you.
Your Goose is cooked!
Add to that long hours, higher prices and no health care
Workers are overworked and under paid.
People are suffering
Three jobs, no health care and in debt.
“Something uniquely American.”
Simple George said!
We are all being held captive by an Evil and Corrupt System.
BU__! SH__! Goes in and
BU__! SH__! Comes out.
They know exactly what they are doing.
The controllers that is.
They are using the most sophisticated
Mind control and conditioning techniques
Know to man or beast.
We are Prisoners in a sick experiment, living in a Rovian jail.
The Faux Media blasts out Garbage 24x7x forever!
The Bulls
Dead Eye and The Shrub
Torture and terrorize
The Prisoners
Feeding them sickening food as
Everything falls apart
You wonder why people are going Mad?
Is that what is troubling you Bud?
Turn it all off.
Shut the door.
Lock them out of your life.
Help create a new, better, separate reality.
Where people matter.
Look at the Zombies around you
Sleep walking to their death
Rats running on a tread mill
For their lives.
Is this fair and balanced?
It is an evil experiment.
Do you want to be like them?
Turn to the Positive.
Turn to the light.
Reaffirm our positive creative ideals and goals
They are the tools that can help get us
Out of this mess.
Have faith in yourself, family and neighbors.
Care about somebody!
It is our responsibility to change it.
Enough already!
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» RE: The Bad Example!
Posted by: dave16
» "Nobody knows the difference" ?
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: Southern Gal on Mar 14, 2008 7:38 AM
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Mar 14, 2008 7:47 AM
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» RE: PART OF THE DARK SIDE IS A NEED TO PLEASE AUTHORITY
Posted by: OldRedleg
» RE: PART OF THE DARK SIDE OldRedleg
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: PART OF THE DARK SIDE OldRedleg
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: PART OF THE DARK SIDE OldRedleg
Posted by: Longdream
» Tell that to my cat
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: Tell that to my cat
Posted by: bittershaman
» RE: PART OF THE DARK SIDE OldRedleg
Posted by: OldRedleg
» Why do the other animals know better?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Untrue.
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: PART OF THE DARK SIDE IS A NEED TO PLEASE AUTHORITY
Posted by: BrianOfNairobi
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Mar 14, 2008 9:52 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not advocating for or arguing against-- just observing and commenting.
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» RE: Not A New Observation
Posted by: barryr
» RE: Evil is an entirely different thing.
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Not A New Observation
Posted by: pdxlinuxchix
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Posted by: billwald on Mar 14, 2008 9:56 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In 6000 years of history there is no evidence of humans becoming more moral creatures. We have learned to do our evil more efficiently and in a more sanitary way.
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» RE: we all have a sin nature
Posted by: barryr
» RE: we all have a sin nature
Posted by: Longdream
» No evidence of humans becoming more moral?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: No evidence of humans becoming more moral?
Posted by: BrianOfNairobi
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Posted by: willymack on Mar 14, 2008 10:08 AM
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Posted by: joeunix on Mar 14, 2008 10:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The banality of evil
Posted by: Cathyc
» Hannah Arendt is evil?????
Posted by: joeunix
» RE: Hannah Arendt - and the "Banality of Evil"
Posted by: Cathyc
» Ah, now I understand. And you may be correct
Posted by: joeunix
» RE: No.
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Hannah Arendt - and the "Banality of Evil"
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: greatferm on Mar 14, 2008 10:34 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Philip Zimbardo, and Thomas Hobbes, should be required reading for every legislator everywhere, with continuing education to make sure they were always in the forefront of the mind. You want to deny what they say, but, honestly, you can't.
Everyone I know in criminal justice reform work knows all about the Stanford Prison Experiment. We cite it tiresomely, but the public doesn't care. Prisoners are not a political force, they do not vote, or contribute, or have lobbyists, they are permanently discredited, voiceless, and the public does not want to hear about them, they are to be kept off the streets and out of sight and they deserve it.
But don't blame the system for causing this, it is IN US, not a consequence of the system.
If anyone cared, things could be changed, and the methods of making the changes are well known and obvious, just get any group of thinking individuals together and ask them "Suppose your child gets arrested for a serious crime, what could be done about it, short of imprisonment ?" Last time I did it, we got 25 alternatives before we ran out of time.
You can solve it with a simple problem-solving approach, like an engineer. You can solve it with a medical approach, like a doctor. You can solve it with a sociological approach, or ministerial.
But we are addicted, to punishment, and deeply in denial.
As Judge James Gray pointed out years ago, there is reason to lock some people up, because they are dangerous, but we are locking people up because we're mad at them.
Then we go to such lengths to develop, nurture, care for and feed a criminal subculture. Look at any of the documentaries on prisons, see how the hothouse is maintained and cultured. Containment is all, rehabilitation is a cynical joke. If they are not of the criminal culture when they enter, we do all possible to convert them, then we structure their release so as to maximize their potential for returning.
The Criminal-Industrial Complex. There is money to be made, and the subsidies of fear are endless. Cut the schools of you must, but maintain the prisons at whatever the cost. What a business model !
When you can give the public what it wants, and make lots of money doing it, what's not to like ? Problem = Profits
The surgery was successful, although the patient died, but successful because the Doctor got paid, and there will be an endless and growing supply of new patients.
None of this is news. Every year, there are dozens of books about criminal justice reform, all saying basically the same thing, in overwhelming detail, from many points of view. The so called criminal so called justice so called system is a mess, probably unreformable, hopeless, destructive, counterproductive.
But nothing changes, unless it gets worse. Fear rules us all.
Homo Sapiens: the only species ever to go extinct by choice.
greatferm
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Posted by: QQOblivion on Mar 14, 2008 10:41 AM
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By the way, I know we ALL have the capacity for evil. But the question is, do Bush and Cheney have the capacity for GOOD? I have seen no evidence at all to support that they do.
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» RE: War IS Hell
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: War IS Hell
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: We don't know that for a fact now do we?
Posted by: imcnotu
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Posted by: Sir Jim on Mar 14, 2008 11:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wrote everyone in authority, media outlets and the defense atorneysd reminding them of the "Standford Experiments". This was an exact duplicate! I wondered if Zimbardo & Milgram were dead. To learn they were on the barricades was a great relief.
I had studied both in an undergrad Psychology course and even viewed the films. I did not, for a minute, doubt, at the time, the outcome - history is rife with examples.
Some of those kids I understood to be Militia, and not properly-trained Marines - professional soldiers.
I could not believe that the U.S. would be ignorant enough to forget, and defence counsel incompetent enough not to use, those experiments to provide extenuating circumstances - if not to get a "not guilty" finding.
This did not diminish my profound regret for the prisoners, nor for those I had seen online being treated a hell of a lot worse by their own countrymen.
I remember thinking, where are the professors, are people's memories so short? We have seen this before and it is always the lowest on the totem pole who pay the price.
One letter I wrote matched the conditions in Abu exactly step-by-step with Zimbardo's Experiment - and NOBODY would touch it!
I have recently learned that only 1% of the people of Europe tried to help Jews and the forgotten others destined for the camps - a million others went as well - in WWII. In our society (and others), truth is as scarce as hens' teeth.
It was such a relief to read that Zimbardo had come forward, and was active. That was not public - to my knowledge - or I wouldn't have been jumping up and down until the point at which it became obvious I too was being ignored.
Another damn show trial - using young and expendable kids - how many more must we see?
There is not one of them who should be in jail - they should be released and debriefed about what happened to them - right now.
Bush has the right to pardon prisoners - if I understand the US System correctly - when he leaves office. US citizens should begin now to lobby for the release of the so-called perpetrators at Abu.
People have recently come to confuse blogging with action. It's time for the professors, lawyers and people familiar with those experiments to get onto Bush's radar - make that poor silly man understand.
Lord Jim
PS
On a US channel some time ago, I saw a situation in which a Navy Commando ought to have been given a postumous medal. Surrounded by forces of the other side, all of his comrades killed around him - they had been caught and cut off on some sort of mission - he was shown being coaxed and baited out of his hiding place.
Can you imagine what his fate would have been? How many of us would not have surrendered. He kept blasting away until they got him.
If that was not bravery above and beyond, and deserving of a medal, what is? If you are going to crucify your troops for what they do wrong, you should reward the ones who perform to professional standards and beyond. Such actions can be overlooked in battle, but this act of heroism - however right or wrong you deem the cause - was on TV! It has been a senseless war, but there have been acts, no doubt on both sides, of courage, compassion and bravery that do provide hope in the face of over-arching evil.
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» RE: Is There a Dark Side in All of Us?
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Is There a Dark Side in All of Us?
Posted by: DonnaSchlesinger
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Posted by: sofla100 on Mar 14, 2008 11:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» An Evil Nation: America is Seen with Laughter?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: An Evil Nation: America is Seen with Laughter?
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: An Evil Nation: America is Seen with Laughter Now When She Tries to Talk Human Rights
Posted by: dayenta
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Posted by: barryr on Mar 14, 2008 11:58 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's a Mother Jones article about Fox reality show: http://tinyurl.com/yvkt6o
We talk about the Stanford Prison Experiment and Abu Ghraib as if they are remote things that have only a hypothetical relationship to us. We say with hypothetical humility that we don't know if we would do any "better" if thrown into such a situation.
But we ARE in such a situation. We are in the process of becoming comfortable with the idea of torture, and using new, more elaborate definitions to allow torture to happen while telling ourselves that we are still "better" than that. We watch Jack Bauer torture terrorists, we watch Fox torture contestants for ratings, we watch outrage about Abu Ghraib in congress blunted into a bill-and-veto process which makes torture legal. We are in the process of accepting a new normal.
We wonder how we would do if we were assigned the role of prisoner and how we would do with the role of guard. But we have been assigned a role: onlooker.
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» Normalised abuse and violence
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Tsk Tsk, Cathy
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Torture now an exciting TV show
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Torture now an exciting TV show
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: Sojourner on Mar 14, 2008 12:26 PM
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Enforcement is only as good as its peer review (in courts of law). Without regular peer review enforcers become at least tempted to "do a better job." And an enforcer's better job is always more force. So the question is not whether we always face the danger of overzealous force. The question is whether we accept the necessary mechanisms of correction and limitation on force.
Built into our Bill of Rights is the recognition that there are no "final" solutions. Nothing is final except death, and every advocate of finality, who would close off alternatives, exemplifies Freud's thanatos, the death instinct.
The Bill of Rights is not some academic paper. It grew out of long generations of transmitted experience with authority. Authority is a necessary evil, and if we forget that it is always evil as well as always necessary, the result is predictable. "Question Authority" even when it is held by doctors and psychologists and clergy or the "questioners" themselves.
The best thing I have read recently is from Derrida's "Acts of Religion" where he reviews Walter Benjamin's papers on force. For all Benjamin's (pre-WWII) insight into force, he pursues a fixed finalty that makes him a victim of his own stubborness. No one ever said it is easy being human
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» Authority versus Arrogant Authoritarians
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Authority versus Arrogant Authoritarians
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: Ahimsa on Mar 14, 2008 2:36 PM
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It is interesting to me that evil keeps being refered to as "a force", as in Star Wars: an entity or energy that pre-exists the deed, even the doer.
Could we say that evil is produced under certain circumstances, through actions that lead to a particular set of consequences that produce suffering?
Defining the animal should be the first thing. It is dangerous to assume that it is a force, a being that needs to be fought or an innate characteristc of our race (the human...)
If we were to go down to nitty gritty definitions, could we equate evil to suffering, or that which produces suffering?
Otherwise we fall in relativisms of who is this thing evil to?
This line of thought would point at the issue of awareness of one's actions and of their consequences.
But it is easier to invoke satan, lucifer or baal as external factors, the same way as it is to point fingers at the "evil doers"
Look at the world around, "evil" appears when circumstances are fertile for it. Evil is not human, it is an abstraction, what is human is the capacity of cahnging our behaviour at will in order to avoid harming each other, in order to avoid "evil".
Hmmm, it is hard to articulate (pardon my clumsyness) but it seems that this popular wisdom is not so wise after all...
Let's step out of the judeo-christian-muslim paradigm for second, can we?
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» The article describes behavior not abstractions.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Definitions
Posted by: bittershaman
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Posted by: MobileSucks on Mar 14, 2008 4:54 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No sweet hearts, your liberal angels capable of no wrong.
I'd say chances are YOU are probably pretty evil already. On your own terms. And you very well might not know it. Or you may. But I'd venture to say if you are a progressive, broadly defined, and your even remotely living an "average" American lifestyle -- your a real bad person.
Our society is evil. What is often considered as normal, acceptable behavior, therefore, is evil.
This scientist is talking about _abnormal_ shittyness for the most part, yes? Well, that's fine and fascinating and we can better understand social psychology, but it's worth realizing and remembering that the nuts are already running the nut house.
By the way, I'm for one getting more worried about these last months of the Bush Administration.
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Posted by: drmeow on Mar 14, 2008 7:17 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Zimbardo has milked that one experiment for his entire career and it violated some fundamental experimental criteria. Furthermore, unlike a mature scientist who accepts new data as advancing the field, Zimbardo simply attacks any studies that fail to replicate his findings (and there are some). He's an arrogant narcissist (like many academics, especially those in psychology) who I wish would just GO AWAY.
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» RE: Cripes I wish Zimbardo would shut up
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Cripes I wish Zimbardo would shut up
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: YogiBear on Mar 14, 2008 8:29 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tell people not to think for themselves; tell them to believe in good and evil (their commanders being the good, of course) and you set them up to crack when incidents occur that strain those beliefs.
I've always been of the belief that moral absolutism is just moral relativism in a different form -- you make justifications for what you will believe and not believe based on arbitrary sets of data. You believe in equal rights, but not for gays. You're against abortion, but find ways to justify bombs dropped carelessly onto school children's heads in war, or justify torturing men of other cultures. You believe in freedom of speech, but seek to keep that speech from being spoken in places your own family can hear or see it.
Moral absolutes might be good for (and possibly necessary for) setting up and securing the basic framework of society, hierarchal guideposts to follow to keep a people operating under the same laws and pretenses, but make them out of stone and that's where the problems always kick in.
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Posted by: talkville on Mar 15, 2008 4:09 AM
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"Consciousness is a surface" said Nietzsche (a profound psychologist and empiricist! a scientist!). Below the surface it's still dark, murky, vague, mis-understood. It's dark all right! It's prudent to have awareness of findings such as those of Zimbardo's and many, many others. The vast range of human capacities and capabilities and 'competencies' is no cause for hubris, especially today. Our capacities for cruelty are un-equaled in other species, and there's many a historical time when such capacities were labeled as 'good' or 'for your own good'. The worst thing is denial and considering one-self as 'a Good Man or Woman' and acting under such warrant.
There's a bit of 'bad-apple' in each one of us just as those lowest-ranked scapegoats of Abu Ghraib had, and it's uncomfortably easy to fall into actions of that nature ("for the Greater Good?).
It's best to struggle to understand these things in ourselves first. Then, perhaps, we can walk together carefully and slowly and seek a more just, more dignified, more equitable way of living, away from our animalic nature towards a truly human one. We are making the future right now; we can certainly make a better one than this, Darwin and Spencer notwithstanding.
It would be foolish and faith-based to deny a darker side in ourselves; there is great need not of fear but of courage these days and first of all in ourselves as human individuals. A better world is possible.
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Posted by: drricklippin on Mar 15, 2008 6:09 AM
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Yogi is right in part because our brain cortex which has a superego and is capable of giving us "goodness" can in times of stress or for other reasons be overridden by our animal parts of our brain which has no sense of right or wrong or morality or ethics.These are human constructs.We do not need discussions of God or Lucifer to drive the dialogue.
The animal brain knows one thing - survive to reproduce
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton, Pa
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Posted by: using on Mar 15, 2008 11:16 AM
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the german soldiers who caught the fever of Hitler and carried out his orders....are NOT on the same level as Hitler and his gang.
The leaders of industry and government in Germany and arround the world who helped bring Hitler to power and supported him....knowing what he was...and readily agreeing t o rid themselves of him and his lowly gang of monsters as soon as he brought Germany (which means their industry and economy) back to glory, and who were in the process, willingly permitting the robbery, enslavement and murder of millions upon millions of people....that is an evil far outweighing even Hitler's released craziness upon the world. And the tragidy.....is that Cain's evil..which are in different doses made possible by most of the Abel's....are reborn in each society that we rebuilt with our ingenuity and creativity and hard work.
The time has come for those who are capable of sight.... to acknowledge the underpinnings of our disgraceful truth, as the psychologist of the study that took place in the college that simulated a prison did, and figure out how we can group together to control evil while helping human nature evolve to a higher self. And with our disregard for the survival of life on this planet, and the corp stranglehold on the world economy, we are quickly running out of time.
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Posted by: holojojo on Mar 16, 2008 5:10 PM
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Posted by: opmoc on Mar 14, 2008 3:06 AM
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BBC Documentary About The Origins Of The War on Terror
MTV Commercial The Holocaust Happenned To People Like Us
Saturday 15 March, the fifth anniversary of the Iraq invasion, will see a day of global protests
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» Evil is not innate. Nobody is born evil.
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Evil is not innate. Nobody is born evil.
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: nc green on Mar 14, 2008 5:17 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All of us have the potential to do great evil or great good. We even have the potential to let go of concepts of good and evil and walk the path of enlightenment.
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» RE: If you can't see your own potential for evil ...
Posted by: Pop
» RE: Your might call it the "Wolf Factor" innate in us.
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: KaptainSpiffy on Mar 14, 2008 5:19 AM
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Posted by: davidg on Mar 14, 2008 5:25 AM
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Posted by: shariavigilant on Mar 14, 2008 5:57 AM
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» RE: Bob - what happened to you as an infant?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Freud?
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: TarryFaster on Mar 14, 2008 7:07 AM
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» triple word score!
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: There is a long-term study that was done from the inside out ...
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: The Big Raven on Mar 14, 2008 7:27 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Being a REAL Native male gives me a veiw of these north amerikan cuntries that most of you dont even realies. I just laugh my ass off when you folks get soooooooo mad at israel for what they have done and are still doing and you PRETEND that in your country GOD has given YOU my land. And some how by being a white north american your better than others.
Now we all KNOW this is a LIE and when people have too live in a lie and even defend a lie they LOOSE thier conection to humanity and hence we end up treating each other like shit.
I tried to keep this simple if you do not beleive me go ask any grandmother or grandfather if living a lie can produce productive and friendly people and then you will understand and no god is not just yours.
Peace
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» Living a Lie - its what MOST people do.
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Another stupid test to justify............
Posted by: Gretchen360
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Posted by: williameon on Mar 14, 2008 7:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When you have Evil at the Top.
It flows through the whole system
From the top down.
It is obvious.
This is exactly what they want.
There are no accidents or coincidences here.
Everything is well planned,
Decades into the Future.
And the wheels are greased with BLOOD!
Hold on Carl!
I want to get off.
Things have gotten gradually worst over the last forty five years and
No body knows the difference.
Talk about cooking a frog in gradually boiling water.
Are you done yet?
I have news for you.
Your Goose is cooked!
Add to that long hours, higher prices and no health care
Workers are overworked and under paid.
People are suffering
Three jobs, no health care and in debt.
“Something uniquely American.”
Simple George said!
We are all being held captive by an Evil and Corrupt System.
BU__! SH__! Goes in and
BU__! SH__! Comes out.
They know exactly what they are doing.
The controllers that is.
They are using the most sophisticated
Mind control and conditioning techniques
Know to man or beast.
We are Prisoners in a sick experiment, living in a Rovian jail.
The Faux Media blasts out Garbage 24x7x forever!
The Bulls
Dead Eye and The Shrub
Torture and terrorize
The Prisoners
Feeding them sickening food as
Everything falls apart
You wonder why people are going Mad?
Is that what is troubling you Bud?
Turn it all off.
Shut the door.
Lock them out of your life.
Help create a new, better, separate reality.
Where people matter.
Look at the Zombies around you
Sleep walking to their death
Rats running on a tread mill
For their lives.
Is this fair and balanced?
It is an evil experiment.
Do you want to be like them?
Turn to the Positive.
Turn to the light.
Reaffirm our positive creative ideals and goals
They are the tools that can help get us
Out of this mess.
Have faith in yourself, family and neighbors.
Care about somebody!
It is our responsibility to change it.
Enough already!
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» RE: The Bad Example!
Posted by: dave16
» "Nobody knows the difference" ?
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: Southern Gal on Mar 14, 2008 7:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Mar 14, 2008 7:47 AM
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» RE: PART OF THE DARK SIDE IS A NEED TO PLEASE AUTHORITY
Posted by: OldRedleg
» RE: PART OF THE DARK SIDE OldRedleg
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: PART OF THE DARK SIDE OldRedleg
Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: PART OF THE DARK SIDE OldRedleg
Posted by: Longdream
» Tell that to my cat
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: Tell that to my cat
Posted by: bittershaman
» RE: PART OF THE DARK SIDE OldRedleg
Posted by: OldRedleg
» Why do the other animals know better?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Untrue.
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: PART OF THE DARK SIDE IS A NEED TO PLEASE AUTHORITY
Posted by: BrianOfNairobi
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Posted by: NoPCZone on Mar 14, 2008 9:52 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not advocating for or arguing against-- just observing and commenting.
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» RE: Not A New Observation
Posted by: barryr
» RE: Evil is an entirely different thing.
Posted by: NoPCZone
» RE: Not A New Observation
Posted by: pdxlinuxchix
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Posted by: billwald on Mar 14, 2008 9:56 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In 6000 years of history there is no evidence of humans becoming more moral creatures. We have learned to do our evil more efficiently and in a more sanitary way.
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» RE: we all have a sin nature
Posted by: barryr
» RE: we all have a sin nature
Posted by: Longdream
» No evidence of humans becoming more moral?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: No evidence of humans becoming more moral?
Posted by: BrianOfNairobi
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Posted by: willymack on Mar 14, 2008 10:08 AM
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Posted by: joeunix on Mar 14, 2008 10:26 AM
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» RE: The banality of evil
Posted by: Cathyc
» Hannah Arendt is evil?????
Posted by: joeunix
» RE: Hannah Arendt - and the "Banality of Evil"
Posted by: Cathyc
» Ah, now I understand. And you may be correct
Posted by: joeunix
» RE: No.
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Hannah Arendt - and the "Banality of Evil"
Posted by: Longdream
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Posted by: greatferm on Mar 14, 2008 10:34 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Philip Zimbardo, and Thomas Hobbes, should be required reading for every legislator everywhere, with continuing education to make sure they were always in the forefront of the mind. You want to deny what they say, but, honestly, you can't.
Everyone I know in criminal justice reform work knows all about the Stanford Prison Experiment. We cite it tiresomely, but the public doesn't care. Prisoners are not a political force, they do not vote, or contribute, or have lobbyists, they are permanently discredited, voiceless, and the public does not want to hear about them, they are to be kept off the streets and out of sight and they deserve it.
But don't blame the system for causing this, it is IN US, not a consequence of the system.
If anyone cared, things could be changed, and the methods of making the changes are well known and obvious, just get any group of thinking individuals together and ask them "Suppose your child gets arrested for a serious crime, what could be done about it, short of imprisonment ?" Last time I did it, we got 25 alternatives before we ran out of time.
You can solve it with a simple problem-solving approach, like an engineer. You can solve it with a medical approach, like a doctor. You can solve it with a sociological approach, or ministerial.
But we are addicted, to punishment, and deeply in denial.
As Judge James Gray pointed out years ago, there is reason to lock some people up, because they are dangerous, but we are locking people up because we're mad at them.
Then we go to such lengths to develop, nurture, care for and feed a criminal subculture. Look at any of the documentaries on prisons, see how the hothouse is maintained and cultured. Containment is all, rehabilitation is a cynical joke. If they are not of the criminal culture when they enter, we do all possible to convert them, then we structure their release so as to maximize their potential for returning.
The Criminal-Industrial Complex. There is money to be made, and the subsidies of fear are endless. Cut the schools of you must, but maintain the prisons at whatever the cost. What a business model !
When you can give the public what it wants, and make lots of money doing it, what's not to like ? Problem = Profits
The surgery was successful, although the patient died, but successful because the Doctor got paid, and there will be an endless and growing supply of new patients.
None of this is news. Every year, there are dozens of books about criminal justice reform, all saying basically the same thing, in overwhelming detail, from many points of view. The so called criminal so called justice so called system is a mess, probably unreformable, hopeless, destructive, counterproductive.
But nothing changes, unless it gets worse. Fear rules us all.
Homo Sapiens: the only species ever to go extinct by choice.
greatferm
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Posted by: QQOblivion on Mar 14, 2008 10:41 AM
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By the way, I know we ALL have the capacity for evil. But the question is, do Bush and Cheney have the capacity for GOOD? I have seen no evidence at all to support that they do.
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» RE: War IS Hell
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: War IS Hell
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: We don't know that for a fact now do we?
Posted by: imcnotu
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Posted by: Sir Jim on Mar 14, 2008 11:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wrote everyone in authority, media outlets and the defense atorneysd reminding them of the "Standford Experiments". This was an exact duplicate! I wondered if Zimbardo & Milgram were dead. To learn they were on the barricades was a great relief.
I had studied both in an undergrad Psychology course and even viewed the films. I did not, for a minute, doubt, at the time, the outcome - history is rife with examples.
Some of those kids I understood to be Militia, and not properly-trained Marines - professional soldiers.
I could not believe that the U.S. would be ignorant enough to forget, and defence counsel incompetent enough not to use, those experiments to provide extenuating circumstances - if not to get a "not guilty" finding.
This did not diminish my profound regret for the prisoners, nor for those I had seen online being treated a hell of a lot worse by their own countrymen.
I remember thinking, where are the professors, are people's memories so short? We have seen this before and it is always the lowest on the totem pole who pay the price.
One letter I wrote matched the conditions in Abu exactly step-by-step with Zimbardo's Experiment - and NOBODY would touch it!
I have recently learned that only 1% of the people of Europe tried to help Jews and the forgotten others destined for the camps - a million others went as well - in WWII. In our society (and others), truth is as scarce as hens' teeth.
It was such a relief to read that Zimbardo had come forward, and was active. That was not public - to my knowledge - or I wouldn't have been jumping up and down until the point at which it became obvious I too was being ignored.
Another damn show trial - using young and expendable kids - how many more must we see?
There is not one of them who should be in jail - they should be released and debriefed about what happened to them - right now.
Bush has the right to pardon prisoners - if I understand the US System correctly - when he leaves office. US citizens should begin now to lobby for the release of the so-called perpetrators at Abu.
People have recently come to confuse blogging with action. It's time for the professors, lawyers and people familiar with those experiments to get onto Bush's radar - make that poor silly man understand.
Lord Jim
PS
On a US channel some time ago, I saw a situation in which a Navy Commando ought to have been given a postumous medal. Surrounded by forces of the other side, all of his comrades killed around him - they had been caught and cut off on some sort of mission - he was shown being coaxed and baited out of his hiding place.
Can you imagine what his fate would have been? How many of us would not have surrendered. He kept blasting away until they got him.
If that was not bravery above and beyond, and deserving of a medal, what is? If you are going to crucify your troops for what they do wrong, you should reward the ones who perform to professional standards and beyond. Such actions can be overlooked in battle, but this act of heroism - however right or wrong you deem the cause - was on TV! It has been a senseless war, but there have been acts, no doubt on both sides, of courage, compassion and bravery that do provide hope in the face of over-arching evil.
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» RE: Is There a Dark Side in All of Us?
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Is There a Dark Side in All of Us?
Posted by: DonnaSchlesinger
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Posted by: sofla100 on Mar 14, 2008 11:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» An Evil Nation: America is Seen with Laughter?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: An Evil Nation: America is Seen with Laughter?
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: An Evil Nation: America is Seen with Laughter Now When She Tries to Talk Human Rights
Posted by: dayenta
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Posted by: barryr on Mar 14, 2008 11:58 AM
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Here's a Mother Jones article about Fox reality show: http://tinyurl.com/yvkt6o
We talk about the Stanford Prison Experiment and Abu Ghraib as if they are remote things that have only a hypothetical relationship to us. We say with hypothetical humility that we don't know if we would do any "better" if thrown into such a situation.
But we ARE in such a situation. We are in the process of becoming comfortable with the idea of torture, and using new, more elaborate definitions to allow torture to happen while telling ourselves that we are still "better" than that. We watch Jack Bauer torture terrorists, we watch Fox torture contestants for ratings, we watch outrage about Abu Ghraib in congress blunted into a bill-and-veto process which makes torture legal. We are in the process of accepting a new normal.
We wonder how we would do if we were assigned the role of prisoner and how we would do with the role of guard. But we have been assigned a role: onlooker.
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» Normalised abuse and violence
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Tsk Tsk, Cathy
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Torture now an exciting TV show
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Torture now an exciting TV show
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Posted by: Sojourner on Mar 14, 2008 12:26 PM
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Enforcement is only as good as its peer review (in courts of law). Without regular peer review enforcers become at least tempted to "do a better job." And an enforcer's better job is always more force. So the question is not whether we always face the danger of overzealous force. The question is whether we accept the necessary mechanisms of correction and limitation on force.
Built into our Bill of Rights is the recognition that there are no "final" solutions. Nothing is final except death, and every advocate of finality, who would close off alternatives, exemplifies Freud's thanatos, the death instinct.
The Bill of Rights is not some academic paper. It grew out of long generations of transmitted experience with authority. Authority is a necessary evil, and if we forget that it is always evil as well as always necessary, the result is predictable. "Question Authority" even when it is held by doctors and psychologists and clergy or the "questioners" themselves.
The best thing I have read recently is from Derrida's "Acts of Religion" where he reviews Walter Benjamin's papers on force. For all Benjamin's (pre-WWII) insight into force, he pursues a fixed finalty that makes him a victim of his own stubborness. No one ever said it is easy being human
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» Authority versus Arrogant Authoritarians
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Authority versus Arrogant Authoritarians
Posted by: Sojourner
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Posted by: Ahimsa on Mar 14, 2008 2:36 PM
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It is interesting to me that evil keeps being refered to as "a force", as in Star Wars: an entity or energy that pre-exists the deed, even the doer.
Could we say that evil is produced under certain circumstances, through actions that lead to a particular set of consequences that produce suffering?
Defining the animal should be the first thing. It is dangerous to assume that it is a force, a being that needs to be fought or an innate characteristc of our race (the human...)
If we were to go down to nitty gritty definitions, could we equate evil to suffering, or that which produces suffering?
Otherwise we fall in relativisms of who is this thing evil to?
This line of thought would point at the issue of awareness of one's actions and of their consequences.
But it is easier to invoke satan, lucifer or baal as external factors, the same way as it is to point fingers at the "evil doers"
Look at the world around, "evil" appears when circumstances are fertile for it. Evil is not human, it is an abstraction, what is human is the capacity of cahnging our behaviour at will in order to avoid harming each other, in order to avoid "evil".
Hmmm, it is hard to articulate (pardon my clumsyness) but it seems that this popular wisdom is not so wise after all...
Let's step out of the judeo-christian-muslim paradigm for second, can we?
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» The article describes behavior not abstractions.
Posted by: Sojourner
» RE: Definitions
Posted by: bittershaman
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Posted by: MobileSucks on Mar 14, 2008 4:54 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No sweet hearts, your liberal angels capable of no wrong.
I'd say chances are YOU are probably pretty evil already. On your own terms. And you very well might not know it. Or you may. But I'd venture to say if you are a progressive, broadly defined, and your even remotely living an "average" American lifestyle -- your a real bad person.
Our society is evil. What is often considered as normal, acceptable behavior, therefore, is evil.
This scientist is talking about _abnormal_ shittyness for the most part, yes? Well, that's fine and fascinating and we can better understand social psychology, but it's worth realizing and remembering that the nuts are already running the nut house.
By the way, I'm for one getting more worried about these last months of the Bush Administration.
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Posted by: drmeow on Mar 14, 2008 7:17 PM
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Zimbardo has milked that one experiment for his entire career and it violated some fundamental experimental criteria. Furthermore, unlike a mature scientist who accepts new data as advancing the field, Zimbardo simply attacks any studies that fail to replicate his findings (and there are some). He's an arrogant narcissist (like many academics, especially those in psychology) who I wish would just GO AWAY.
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» RE: Cripes I wish Zimbardo would shut up
Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Cripes I wish Zimbardo would shut up
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: YogiBear on Mar 14, 2008 8:29 PM
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Tell people not to think for themselves; tell them to believe in good and evil (their commanders being the good, of course) and you set them up to crack when incidents occur that strain those beliefs.
I've always been of the belief that moral absolutism is just moral relativism in a different form -- you make justifications for what you will believe and not believe based on arbitrary sets of data. You believe in equal rights, but not for gays. You're against abortion, but find ways to justify bombs dropped carelessly onto school children's heads in war, or justify torturing men of other cultures. You believe in freedom of speech, but seek to keep that speech from being spoken in places your own family can hear or see it.
Moral absolutes might be good for (and possibly necessary for) setting up and securing the basic framework of society, hierarchal guideposts to follow to keep a people operating under the same laws and pretenses, but make them out of stone and that's where the problems always kick in.
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Posted by: talkville on Mar 15, 2008 4:09 AM
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"Consciousness is a surface" said Nietzsche (a profound psychologist and empiricist! a scientist!). Below the surface it's still dark, murky, vague, mis-understood. It's dark all right! It's prudent to have awareness of findings such as those of Zimbardo's and many, many others. The vast range of human capacities and capabilities and 'competencies' is no cause for hubris, especially today. Our capacities for cruelty are un-equaled in other species, and there's many a historical time when such capacities were labeled as 'good' or 'for your own good'. The worst thing is denial and considering one-self as 'a Good Man or Woman' and acting under such warrant.
There's a bit of 'bad-apple' in each one of us just as those lowest-ranked scapegoats of Abu Ghraib had, and it's uncomfortably easy to fall into actions of that nature ("for the Greater Good?).
It's best to struggle to understand these things in ourselves first. Then, perhaps, we can walk together carefully and slowly and seek a more just, more dignified, more equitable way of living, away from our animalic nature towards a truly human one. We are making the future right now; we can certainly make a better one than this, Darwin and Spencer notwithstanding.
It would be foolish and faith-based to deny a darker side in ourselves; there is great need not of fear but of courage these days and first of all in ourselves as human individuals. A better world is possible.
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Posted by: drricklippin on Mar 15, 2008 6:09 AM
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Yogi is right in part because our brain cortex which has a superego and is capable of giving us "goodness" can in times of stress or for other reasons be overridden by our animal parts of our brain which has no sense of right or wrong or morality or ethics.These are human constructs.We do not need discussions of God or Lucifer to drive the dialogue.
The animal brain knows one thing - survive to reproduce
Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton, Pa
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Posted by: using on Mar 15, 2008 11:16 AM
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the german soldiers who caught the fever of Hitler and carried out his orders....are NOT on the same level as Hitler and his gang.
The leaders of industry and government in Germany and arround the world who helped bring Hitler to power and supported him....knowing what he was...and readily agreeing t o rid themselves of him and his lowly gang of monsters as soon as he brought Germany (which means their industry and economy) back to glory, and who were in the process, willingly permitting the robbery, enslavement and murder of millions upon millions of people....that is an evil far outweighing even Hitler's released craziness upon the world. And the tragidy.....is that Cain's evil..which are in different doses made possible by most of the Abel's....are reborn in each society that we rebuilt with our ingenuity and creativity and hard work.
The time has come for those who are capable of sight.... to acknowledge the underpinnings of our disgraceful truth, as the psychologist of the study that took place in the college that simulated a prison did, and figure out how we can group together to control evil while helping human nature evolve to a higher self. And with our disregard for the survival of life on this planet, and the corp stranglehold on the world economy, we are quickly running out of time.
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Posted by: holojojo on Mar 16, 2008 5:10 PM
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