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Anti-War Voters Trust McCain to Make Decisions About 'War on Terror'
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Can it work, with public opinion still so firmly against the war? Frank Rich, a liberal stalwart of the New York Times op-ed page, doubts it. He claims that "the mere mention of Iraq is dangerous to Mr. McCain. … It will be a slam-dunk for Democrats to argue that it's long past time for the Iraqis to stand up on a sensible timetable that will allow the Americans to stand down."
But when the issue is war and peace, Democrats should be as wary as George Tenet about predicting a "slam dunk." Frank Rich, like so many others, assumes that voters who are against the war will choose the candidate who is against the war. Ah, if only our fellow citizens were indeed so logical, how much easier it would be to forecast elections -- and what a different nation this would be.
In fact, the polling numbers from late February and early March already show a less logical, more disturbing trend. A clear majority still think the war was a mistake. But when the question is which candidate will do best handling the war, McCain wins every time. In an LA Times/Bloomberg (LAT/B) poll, it's no contest. He outpolls Clinton on the question 51-35 and outpolls Obama 47-34. A Washington Post/ABC (WP/ABC) poll pitted McCain only against Obama. Though the result was closer, McCain still won 48-43. Yet 63% in that poll said the war was not worth fighting.
In a New York Times/CBS News (NYT/CBS) poll, 58% said the U.S. should never have attacked Iraq. Yet again McCain gets the highest score on "making the right decisions on Iraq"; 58% are confident about McCain (27% "very" confident), 57% about Obama (only 20% "very" confident), and 50% about Clinton. Among the crucial independent voters, McCain gets 62% confidence, while Obama gets only 54% and Clinton 51%. Though 83% of Democrats say the war was wrong, a whopping 42% are confident McCain will make the right decisions on the war, while 21% of Democrats have no confidence in Obama and the same number no confidence in Clinton.
How to explain these surprising numbers? Part of the explanation lies in the changing view of the war. Over the last year, the number who say the war is going well jumped from 30% to 48% in the LAT/B poll. The NYT/CBS poll records a similar jump since last June, from 22% to 43%. In the WP/ABC poll, the number who see "significant progress" jumped from 31% to 43% in just the last three months. That increase tracks very closely with the growing political fortunes of McCain, who was all but counted out last summer.
Yet in nearly every poll a majority do not expect this progress to produce success for the U.S. 54% say things are still going badly, in the NYT/CBS poll. And when Pew asked, "Should we bring the troops home as soon as possible?" more said yes than no (though just barely, 49-47). So, while the growing perception that "the surge is working" helps McCain, it's hard to credit that alone for the voter's trust in him.
Another key to McCain's success is his view that Iraq is just one front, though the most vital, in a global war on terrorism. On that global front, voters clearly see him as their most trustworthy defender.
When the LAT/B poll asked, "Who would be best at protecting the country from terrorism?", McCain bested Clinton by the wide margin of 54-27 and Obama by the even wider margin of 58-21. In the Pew poll, 43% said Obama would not be tough enough on foreign policy and national security issues. 37% had the same concern about Clinton, but a mere 16% about McCain. Independents showed the same pattern on the issue as the overall electorate.
Remember the "crisis phone call, 3 AM" commercial that the Clinton campaign used so successfully? Rasmussen Reports was smart enough to ask voters whom they'd rather have answering that phone: Clinton, Obama, or . . . McCain. The two Democrats got only 25% each, while McCain was way ahead with 42%.
These numbers point to the most important factor of all. Most McCain-trusters are not telling the pollsters what they think about competing policies. How many of them really know anything about the various candidates' policies on global terrorism? They hear questions about "crisis," "protecting," and "toughness" as questions about the candidates' character: Who can I really trust? Who will stand firm when the going gets rough? Which one will take care of America in an emergency? Which one has guts?
Those are precisely the questions McCain plans to make central in this year's election. (Take a look at this video from the McCain campaign, where he morphs into Winston Churchill and Teddy Roosevelt.) If he can get even a slim majority to care more about character than rational analysis of policies, he may very well be on the way to the White House.
For a lot of voters, the character question translates (consciously or unconsciously) into: Which candidate will stand up and act like a real man? So it's not surprising that, in the Rasmussen "crisis" poll, McCain did much better among men (51% McCain, 21% Obama, 19% Clinton). But even among women, McCain's 33% narrowly edged out the Democrats, who got 30% each.
If character is the central issue, McCain's often-discussed age can be a big plus too. When the Pew pollsters said "McCain" and asked respondents to say the first word that came to mind, by far the most (55) said "Old." But look at the runners-up: "Honest" (32); "Experienced" (29); "Patriot" (21). If you are looking at an honest experienced patriot, "old" might very well mean wise, mature, settled, dependable. When a world crisis erupts, who would you rather have answering that phone: a stable, battle-tested veteran who has been through it all, or a young kid who is just coming under fire for the first time?
Of course that's one of the questions Hillary Clinton's campaign is bringing to the fore. "Since we now know Sen. McCain will be the nominee for the Republican Party, national security will be front and center in this election. We all know that," she said recently, at a press conference surrounded by a gaggle of retired military officers. Apparently Clinton's strategists don't agree with Paul Krugman, who wrote recently that a focus on the economy "could well give Democrats a huge advantage" -- especially Hillary, because "the shift in electoral focus from Iraq to economic anxiety clearly plays to Mrs. Clinton's strengths."
Krugman assumes that the economy can be the Dems' winning card because it "has overtaken Iraq as the public's biggest concern." But the polls don't give that clear message at all. In the LAT/B poll, 40% say the economy is their number one issue. But add together the 31% who say Iraq and the 15% who say "protecting the country," and the economy takes second place. In the NYT/CBS poll, Iraq, war, and terror add up to 25%, just slightly behind the economy's 29%.
Perhaps Hillary's people think they can play on this ambiguity to have it both ways: focus on national security during the primary season to secure the nomination, then switch the spotlight to the economy in the fall campaign. But if the current polling trends continue, they are taking a huge risk. McCain's "No Surrender" mantra is already scoring more points than Democrats expected. They seem ill-prepared to cope with the power of those two words. If Clinton forces Obama to focus the current contest on the war and security, the Dems are playing right into McCain's only strength.
Some pundits argue that the Democratic candidate have no choice. McCain's campaign against "cut-and-run" surrender -- which boils down to a charge of Democratic cowardice and treason -- is so powerful that his opponent will have to confront it head on and end up making it the central campaign issue. In other words, the Republicans have already found a way to control the terms of the fall debate.
If that's true, the current poll numbers send a warning sign. A lot of voters who oppose the war will be logically consistent and vote for the candidate who wears the label "anti-war" -- but perhaps not enough to give that candidate a victory. The voters who decide the outcome may be those who oppose the war yet choose McCain, because they feel that his superior character makes him best suited to deal with the war.
That drives rational progressives nuts, but their rage and despair won't change the outcome. What could change the outcome is a strategy that faces up to the irrational facts. That might mean starting right now to shift the focus from war to economy. It might mean reframing the war as an economic issue, and finding some other symbolic vehicle for the battle over "character" issues. It might mean whatever other approach the Democratic strategists can invent.
The essential point is to recognize that McCain's only hope is to turn the war from a policy issue into a character issue. Right now, he seems to be doing surprisingly well.
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Posted by: talkville on Mar 12, 2008 1:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Iraq was a well-planned, well-engineered and well-executed exercise in unilateral aggression and invasion of a sovereign country based on half-truths and outright lies and falsehoods. Not long ago this was called imperialism, I don't know what the current term might be. It is by now not so much a 'war' as an entrenching Occupation, being constructed from the ground up and not for the overall benefit of the Iraqi people (or those who remain living to watch it happen). The Occupation even managed to draw in al-qaeda, which had not been there before and which now provides the very pretext for remaining there (something circular about all this?)
But it may very well turn out this article is right. The rapidly deteriorating economic conditions on the domestic side and the ongoing occupation and provocations to the middle east on the foreign side cannot but increase anxieties which, of course, can only mean fears-- and when votes are cast out of fear and raw emotions this is bound to run in favor of the unlikeliest of more reasoned assessments.
In all events, it seems it will be a kind of referendum on a new age of imperial consolidation.
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» this part of the premise isn't true
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
» RE: this part of the premise isn't true
Posted by: carlos63
» RE: this part of the premise isn't true
Posted by: aichbe
» RE: this part of the premise isn't true
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Perhaps this may be true
Posted by: cherylholmes
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AlexLawyer on Mar 12, 2008 2:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Depends on what it means to be against the war.
Posted by: Aimleft
» RE: Depends on what it means to be against the war.
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: Depends on what it means to be against the war.
Posted by: Cooltruth
» Kusinich and Paul would be on the dove's list as well...
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
Comments are closed-
Posted by: carbon-based on Mar 12, 2008 2:54 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Neither Clinton or Obama put forth a plan for getting us out of Iraq..they only say we will withdraw immediately..any clear thinking person knows thats not possible so it paints them as inexperienced! No one wants to see their country defeated amid a war with Islamic extremest as well.
They both need to develop something with more substance than "Change" and get out of Iraq ASAP"
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» The problem is that we can't "win" either . . .
Posted by: Moonray
» RE: The problem is that we can't "win" either . . .
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: The problem is that we can't "win" either . . .
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Words vs Action!
Posted by: jareilly
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Posted by: Moonray on Mar 12, 2008 2:57 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rush Limbaugh has been chortling that the Democrats "don't have a chance" and he might be right. Look at the small number of white males who vote for Obama in state after state.
Republicans typically win by tricking working-class whites into voting against their own interests. This time, the Republicans are counting on the inherent racism and sexism of working-class whites to create that same voting trend.
If the Republicans win in November, it will represent a crisis for American democracy. That outcome would signal that most Americans KNOWINGLY embrace militarism, racism, sexism and fiscal stupidity in their choice of leaders, and America would lose what little moral standing it has left. Other developed nations would begin to disassociate themselves from us in a serious way.
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» RE: The electorate is anti-black and anti-woman
Posted by: naryaquid
» RE: The electorate is anti-black and anti-woman
Posted by: raymondg
» RE: The electorate is anti-black and anti-woman
Posted by: naryaquid
» RE: The electorate is anti-black and anti-woman
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: The electorate is anti-black and anti-woman
Posted by: naryaquid
» the vast majority of votes for Hillary were by women . . .
Posted by: Moonray
» RE: The electorate is anti-black and anti-woman
Posted by: Monitor523
» RE: The electorate is anti-black and anti-woman
Posted by: Aimleft
» RE: The electorate is anti-black and anti-woman
Posted by: YogiBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: adamskiinasia on Mar 12, 2008 3:01 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Yes we can ??
Posted by: naryaquid
» RE: Yes we can ??
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Yes we can ??
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: Swedish liberal on Mar 12, 2008 3:35 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The fight against communist aggression and against totalitarianism is and will always be on the top agenda for the American people.
The decision to fight in Vietnam and Iraq was in essence correct but it was extremely poorly executed.
When it comes to setting the US on the right track and at the same time ensure that the mistakes in leaving Vietnam is not made. Leaving the population to a worse government.
The right to self determination does not mean that a totalitarian regime can take over but the right to elf determination comes from the individual.
And in this respect I think most Americans believe that John McCain is best suited to do a ordered retreat as fast as possible without leaving the Iraqi people in as dire straits as teh Vietnamese people was left in.
Unfortunately both Obama and Clinton's policies on Iraq reeks of desperation, get out as soon as possible let the Iraqis fend best they can.
If Obama and Clinton can get it across that they will as McCain combine caution with compassion for teh Iraqi people they might do much better in the polls.
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» RE: The US remembers the disastrous retreat out of Vietnam
Posted by: carbon-based
» Well said! nm
Posted by: Timba
» It is strange that so few on Alternet discuss, instead they preach to truebelievers
Posted by: Swedish liberal
» RE: It is strange that so few on Alternet discuss, instead they preach to truebelievers
Posted by: jareilly
» So the Vietnamese followed the UN charter
Posted by: Swedish liberal
» RE: It is strange that so few on Alternet discuss, instead they preach to truebelievers
Posted by: lenioui
» RE: The US remembers the disastrous retreat out of Vietnam
Posted by: Democritus
» RE: The US remembers the disastrous retreat out of Vietnam
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: The US remembers the disastrous retreat out of Vietnam
Posted by: left_libertarian
» McNamara was right!!!! (in hindsight)
Posted by: xvictor
» RE: The US remembers the disastrous retreat out of Vietnam
Posted by: Ohjin
» RE: The US remembers the disastrous retreat out of Vietnam
Posted by: D. Julian Terry
» RE: The US remembers the disastrous retreat out of Vietnam
Posted by: mkdelta69
» RE: The US remembers the disastrous retreat out of Vietnam
Posted by: mkdelta69
» RE: The US remembers the disastrous retreat out of Vietnam
Posted by: Hovey
» Bullshit alert!
Posted by: sausage
» Yes indeed bullshit alert!
Posted by: Swedish liberal
» RE: Yes indeed bullshit alert!
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Yes indeed bullshit alert!
Posted by: mkdelta69
» This Vietnam vet thinks you're living in a fantasy world . . .
Posted by: Moonray
» So the Vietnamese people chose oppression and poverty
Posted by: Swedish liberal
» You can't even get your abbreviations straight, so . . .
Posted by: Moonray
» RE: So the Vietnamese people chose oppression and poverty
Posted by: left_libertarian
» RE: The US remembers the disastrous retreat out of Vietnam
Posted by: JSquercia
» So why do you not live in China?
Posted by: Swedish liberal
» RE: So why do you not live in China?
Posted by: YogiBear
» VIETNAM TODAY: A NATION SUCCEEDING
Posted by: sofla100
» VIETNAM IS A F**G TOTALITARIAN STATE
Posted by: Swedish liberal
» THIS TRANSITION VIETNAM HERSELF HAD TO GO THROUGH, IT COULD NOT BE IMPOSED!
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: THIS TRANSITION VIETNAM HERSELF HAD TO GO THROUGH, IT COULD NOT BE IMPOSED!
Posted by: YogiBear
» Vietnam did not go through a transformation, it was forced
Posted by: Swedish liberal
» RE: Vietnam did not go through a transformation, it was forced
Posted by: mkdelta69
» RE: VIETNAM IS A F**G TOTALITARIAN STATE
Posted by: left_libertarian
» RE: VIETNAM TODAY: A Third World Country
Posted by: Ayla87
» At the rate the US was killing the people of vietnam
Posted by: chief of okeefe
» RE: At the rate the US was killing the people of vietnam
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: VIETNAM TODAY: A Third World Country
Posted by: mkdelta69
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Roy Eidelson on Mar 12, 2008 3:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: colinmeister on Mar 12, 2008 4:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The whole thing is probably moot
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» You have the money for war?
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» Time to join the War Resisters League
Posted by: thistleblower
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Posted by: Democritus on Mar 12, 2008 4:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McCain's latest scandal was reported in the NY Times, telling of the favors he lavished on his lobbyist friends--the ones who contributed to his campaign. This revelation came before McCain said he never took money from special interests.
Then there were the stories from other POWs about McCain's being called "Songbird" for his collaboration with his North Vietnamese captors during his 5 and a half years as a POW. Perhaps these stories have little merit, but where there's smoke, there is usually a little fire.
With respect to who can "handle" the war in Iraq, McCain has said that he agrees with George W. Bush and the latest "surge." What that surge has done is to create a status quo in which we have three sorts of armed militias--Sunni, Shia, and Kurd--that are just itching to have a go at one another as soon as each thinks it might get the upper hand. At the same time, our occupation forces are hunkering down while the puppet government in Iraq siphons $12 billion a month from our treasury for maintaining our troops there.
So what McCain is proposing in supporting Bush's policies is a road to financial ruin for no benefit whatsoever, and the Iraqi oil money which was supposed to go toward rebuilding Iraq is now contributing to a surplus in the Iraqi treasury.
If that weren't bad enough, there is the question of McCain's bellicose stand against Iran. What the American electorate has to be told--over and over, apparently--is that a McCain presidency will allow him a "do over" with Iran. Judging from the disaster that was Iraq, the coming disaster with Iran will surely put a last nail in the coffin of American imperialism. Would McCain be smarter than that? Not likely. Remember that he graduated fifth from the bottom of his class at Annapolis.
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» Songbird-dangerous territory
Posted by: Timba
» RE: McCain loses on the character issue
Posted by: djnoll
» RE: McCain loses on the character issue
Posted by: 1in5
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Mar 12, 2008 5:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is it America's lust for driving those big-butt vans and SUVs and to keep that macho/individualist attitude?
And what about the defunding and stipulations forced against alternative renewables such as solar and wind or even the illegalization of Industrial Hemp which is not only renewable but does not deplete and has 25000 industrial uses?
And what about all those silly gizmos out there such as IPods and those gigantic HDTVs you can't resist?
Yes, they all require lots and lots of petroleum to manufacture. The rising crude oil prices that have been going on long term and the fact that America REFUSES to consider putting those alternative renewables to work by buying into the lies of Big Oil, Chemical, Agri, etc ... is what is keeping this country occupying one oil-rich nation after another. Well, I'm happy to be conserving and looking for petroleum-free alternative products which I'm surprisingly able to get a 90% success at. Or maybe I'm too frugal like our ancestors before the after WWII folks?
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» Share your backyard bounty
Posted by: thistleblower
» RE: Share your backyard bounty
Posted by: rainingwolf
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Posted by: xvictor on Mar 12, 2008 5:25 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: McCain is as warhawkish as u can get!!!
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: McCain is as warhawkish as u can get!!!
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: left_libertarian on Mar 12, 2008 5:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Iraq
Had no WMD
No ties to al-Quida
Had nothing to do with 9/11
And to think that its military was a direct threat to the US is not only a joke, but an insult to the greatest military the world has ever know.
So to say, as McCain believes, that the war can be 'won:'it's already lost. The lies become a sad truth, Bush and Cheney are free because the Democratic Party does not have a sense of justice and the courage to impeach these criminals
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Posted by: smendler on Mar 12, 2008 5:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: douglashoyt on Mar 12, 2008 6:10 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"I would rather have Obama on my basketball team, Hillary on my debate team, but McCain should run the National Security Team."
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» I sure wouldn't want McCain
Posted by: Ellie1
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Mar 12, 2008 6:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: QCao009 on Mar 12, 2008 6:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McCain talks about "no surrender", but his party surrendered in Vietnam and spun it with our tacit agreement, the Chomsky crowd included. The truth is others have always paid and continue to pay for our so-called victories: the Vietnamese killed, the Iraquis killed, the Afghans killed, the young Americans killed and those walking the streets now homeless and broken and a threat to a civil society because we are not treating them with any civility.
A true leader needs to talk about winning the peace. S(he) can appeal to the voters in a very different way by connecting the dots between a failing economy and a duped war(one we have been tricked and trapped by Iran and our ennemies to enter). A true leader can talk about a global economy and an American economy that can thrive on collaboration and competition and not just shopping and cheap gas.
It is fascinating to watch a young man grow old. A young Bill Clinton was once able to do both: be precise and be concise, talk about one issue and string many issues together. May be Senator Obama will grow into that leadership. So far, a plan of withdrawing and attacking McCain is just not enough on this issue. It simply reflects our shallowness. The Bush/Cheney presidency has really lowered our standard of leadership. Our idea of what a winner is has made all of us losers.
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» RE: Winning; QCao009
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Winning through truth
Posted by: Itsthewater
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Posted by: LeeAnnG on Mar 12, 2008 6:38 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Clinton wins the nomination, the thrust is more likely to be "if Senator Clinton can't even be loyal to her own party, how can she be trusted to have the integrity is takes to be president?"
Clinton's lack of character, her need to win at all costs, and her poor judgement just might be the final straw needed to help the democrats snatch defeat from the jaws of victory again.
I had planned to vote for any democrat, even if I didn't agree with that person's entire platform. Hillary Clinton makes it hard to do that. She has undermined her opponent to the point of appearing to support the other party's candidate. I have no respect for her now, and I have less and less hope that there will be a democrat in the White House next year.
This article is a clear indication to me that Clinton's fearmongering ads and attacks on Obama's competence have the potential to be absolutely devastating to the democrats. I agree with a poster above who said that many Americans are not opposed to the war on principle or because it's illegal imperialism based on lies. Many just don't like it because we are losing; these people would change their minds if their perception was that we were winning. That would explain why the "success" of the "surge" has increased approval ratings of the war.
For awhile it seemed that the democrats might pull off a victory, but that becomes more doubtful every time Clinton uncovers a new campaign tactic. One can only hope that Pennsylvania goes to Obama and she recognizes that she has lost. The former is possible, the latter unlikely.
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» Clinton is only loyal to Clinton
Posted by: chief of okeefe
» RE: Clinton is only loyal to Clinton
Posted by: lenioui
» RE: Handing a campaign to the other side
Posted by: dangerouslysane
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Posted by: surfreality on Mar 12, 2008 6:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Iran is the beneficiary of this failed strategy as they are seen by the majority of Iraqi Shia as the best protectors of their interests. The Iranian President's recent visit to Iraq was a remarkable contrast to that of President Bush.
Bush had to practically sneak in...
The surge is keeping the Iraqi warring factions apart to some degree for now, but it is likely that there will be a horrendous civil war. The question is weather or not we want American troops in the middle of the upcoming bloodbath.
Cost of failed strategy so far: 1000s dead, 3 trillion dollars and world wide enmity.
Value to the jihadists: priceless.
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Posted by: daw13 on Mar 12, 2008 6:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: People see war as good economics
Posted by: Burgerdroid
» RE: People see war as good economics
Posted by: mkdelta69
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Posted by: center_peace on Mar 12, 2008 6:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Every time McCain declares "No Surrender", retort "At what cost?".
After every speech, debate or ad, end it with, "And in the time just we've spent talking, the War in Iraq has just cost the next three generations of your family $______. You OWE it to them to stop this war now."
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» RE: It's the economy...
Posted by: John Edward
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Posted by: sausage on Mar 12, 2008 6:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have already saddled outselves with guilt over an impending bloodbath should American ground forces leave Iraq; unleasing a torrent of suicide jacket-wearing al Qaeda terrors on the world like a whirlwind of evil jinn. Improbable images of hook-nosed demons bombing
sports stadiums and poisoning water supplies are ladled up to us in our newspapers, television and radios.
With images like that dancing in our collective pinheads, perhaps Senator John "He's a war hero" McCain's call for the United States staying 100 years in Iraq isn't such a bad idea after all. We've kept the Germans in check for sixty years and maintained the peace on the Korean peninsula for fifty...so 100 years in Iraq,eh?
To paraphrase comedian George Carlin, that's bullshit and it's bad for you.
Rather than heeding a "war hero" or our own national guilt over the bloodbaths and acts of genocide American inflicted upon itself and foreign peoples in the past, when it comes to Iraq, we must heed the words of M.K. Gandhi to Lord Louis Montbattern on the eve of Indian partition:"You must face the bloodbath and accept it."
It is time we, the American people, stopped being the most cowardly people on the planet who hide their unwarrented fears behind military bombast and threats of nuclear destruction. No more United States of Scaredy Cats.
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Posted by: kirkmuse on Mar 12, 2008 7:08 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All military occupations end by the occupiers going home. It's time to end the occupation and bring our troops home.
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» RE: OCCUPATION--OCCUPATION--OCCUPATION
Posted by: willymack
» RE: OCCUPATION--OCCUPATION--OCCUPATION
Posted by: nochicagoboys
Comments are closed-
Posted by: opmoc on Mar 12, 2008 8:57 AM
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» RE: The Power of Nightmares : The Rise of the Politics of Fear
Posted by: mwildfire
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Posted by: QQOblivion on Mar 12, 2008 9:13 AM
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By the way, with all these coming wars, we may very likely not be fighting all of them "over there". The US may, for the first time in a long time, be fighting a couple of these wars on US soil. You've been warned.
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Posted by: kentigereyes@yahoo.com on Mar 12, 2008 9:18 AM
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Mar 12, 2008 9:25 AM
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Barak Obama, 2002:
"That’s what Im opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.
Now let me be clear: I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity. He’s a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.
But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.
I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences.
I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the middle east, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of Al Queda.
I am not opposed to all wars. I’m opposed to dumb wars."
Hillary Clinton, 2002:
In an October 2002 speech on the Senate floor, Clinton said that if left unchecked, Hussein "will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
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Posted by: Illiteratilumen on Mar 12, 2008 9:25 AM
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Anyone who has ever done a Zogby poll can tell you that the questions are often non-specific and very often leading. Few of them allow for free-form answers and instead force you to choose one of five answers, neither of which capture any sort of complexity.
For instance, if I "somewhat oppose" the occupation in Iraq instead of "strongly oppose" do I actually mostly support it? Lets say the poll concludes that "Opponents of the war support John McCain". Do those war opponents include those that "somewhat oppose" the war or only those that are "strongly opposed"? Tough to say unless you can actually look at the raw data and the logic used to draw conclusions.
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Posted by: BCcovers on Mar 12, 2008 10:39 AM
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» RE: economy
Posted by: dangerouslysane
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Mar 12, 2008 11:05 AM
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I am glad democrats are getting what they deserve. I hope it continues until they finally understand how futile it is to keep lying to themselves.
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» right ON
Posted by: realtruther
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Posted by: rsmohio on Mar 12, 2008 11:40 AM
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Posted by: rafey on Mar 12, 2008 12:16 PM
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Posted by: aonghus36 on Mar 12, 2008 1:15 PM
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Posted by: bcgirl125 on Mar 12, 2008 2:06 PM
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http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a2818.htm#001
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Posted by: amarilloeldo on Mar 12, 2008 2:26 PM
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If experience is the important factor, McKain appears to be strongest, although quite removed from foreign affairs. If we fear the image of us running home from Iraq with our tail between our legs, then Mc Kain probably looks better. If the ending of hostilities is considered within the context of winner-loser, then McKain probably looks best to the citizens.
The ideas that Hillary has foreign policy experience by osmosis , or that Barrack has foreign policy expertise by natural talent, are unlikely to persuade the voters. The idea that John McKain has more foreign policy experience because of age or because he sat on a committee made of mostly white American men and studied the pentagon budget is more likely to persuade the voters.
Who is defining these issues? Let’s look at another definition we’ve used to understand national elections. For the past 15 or 20 years, states have been branded as either red or blue and accordingly issues have been presented simplistically as either one way or another. There were many reasons for this not the least of which was that the issues can easily be “explained” in sound bites that fit easily between the commercials. [Tangent: news as programmed learning]
Issues are complex. States that might be either blue or red were typecast as populated by ultra-rightists and -leftists, not thoughtful centrists. That always bugged me but i never conveyed my annoyance convincingly, People thought the concept of Blue/Red helpful while I saw it as threatening to our complexity and strength as a nation.
Obama, however, showed us the error. He said, “There are not Red People and Blue People. There are all sorts of Americans, Red, blue and purple and most of us bleed red, white and blue. He killed the curse of the color brand. He took it to where the conclusion of the Red/Blue thing inevitably went and said there are no Red or blue people. You see, Obama really is a man of our children’s generation. Besides having a gift for communication he’s the type of guy who sees no conflict between a redneck and earrings or a delicate young woman and fierce tattoos or even the marriage between the two. His question becomes one of finding the common thread not defining restrictive limitations.
So, in the issue of who will be more able to successfully end the war, Obama might be the guy who can ask of those who fear failure, “What would be success?” When that is answered, success is easy. No one has asked that. Do we want a foreign policy or do we want to have on-going foreign relations. McKain is hardly the person we want developing foreign relations--he’s a Doctor Strangelove. If we want iron-handed foreign policy that brands other nations as either friend or enemy, then McKain’s the guy. If we want a leader who can come to terms with the other nations on this little earth and find ways to use our similarities to the advantage while allowing differences and respecting boundaries, Obama is our only hope. The ideas we have about other peoples, that muslims are superstitious and heinous, that French are complacent, weak and callous, that the Swedish have no joy from being taxed so highly, and that we alone amongst the peoples of the world are the happy, free, smart, and superior, then we will continue to be seen as dim-witted, overweight , narrow-minded imperialists.
Until we take a hand in specifying the context, the questions will be phrased in mind-control contexts. Besides, history shows that prior government experience is a flaw rather than an asset for a president.
.
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Posted by: sofla100 on Mar 12, 2008 2:45 PM
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» Finally someone with the gonads to say what the issue is
Posted by: chief of okeefe
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Posted by: YogiBear on Mar 12, 2008 3:10 PM
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But I doubt either consideration will have much of an effect on the actual tally; most who are anti-war aren't going to throw away their convictions that easily. I expect they'll vote their hearts and hope for the best.
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Posted by: zeroman on Mar 12, 2008 3:26 PM
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that's just not true. what they are saying, if anyone is listening (and not even really hard) is that they DO NOT plan to withdraw from iraq - they go on and on about "our national interests" and talk about a protracted withdrawal over a number of months that can turn into years, with all sorts of caveats about circumstances in which they will redeploy the troops.
that's NOT a withdrawal plan - it's a continuation of imperial meddling. and if no-one asked me to question the imperial nature of our presence in Iraq, and i had to choose between someone who straight out supports empire, and someone who waffles about it, i would probably vote for the one who beats the loudest drum.
The Democrats can win on Iraq too - if they said, clearly, that WE DO NOT BELONG THERE, the Iraqis don't want us there, and the American people don't want us there. And, finally, that we as a country will be SAFER if we get the hell out of the Middle East and give up our goal of controlling the world's oil supplies.
unfortunately, they don't say any such thing, because they believe no such thing - the plan is to continue to exert imperial power but give it a friendlier face. look at their positions on Israel, for crying out loud!
What we need to worry about is not whether a Dem or a Rep will be in office, but about whether we as a people will be organized and active enough to force WHOEVER is in office to end imperialist practice.
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Mar 12, 2008 4:40 PM
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Posted by: wishninja on Mar 12, 2008 5:13 PM
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» RE: Al sadr broke the truse today
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Al sadr broke the truse today
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: chief of okeefe on Mar 12, 2008 6:52 PM
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I guarantee a war that gets nearly all of us killed. No one can be tougher than that!!
I will start attacking everyone and everything America. So elect me!!!
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» RE: If I promise to immediately start a nuclear war will you elect me?
Posted by: mwildfire
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Posted by: chief of okeefe on Mar 12, 2008 7:18 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Then the US would be so preoccupied with the internal problems, it would be in no position to continue it's campaign of aggression against the rest of the planet. This would save the lives of thousands, maybe millions, of people who will die at the hands of that bloodthirsty lunatic McCain.
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» RE: There is no freakin solution except secession
Posted by: realtruther
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Posted by: larryfhilton on Mar 12, 2008 11:08 PM
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Whatever else, Karl Rove is smart, and when the public believes the opponent has more character than his guy, he takes the opponent head on and attacks his strong point--character. That has won for his guys, and will win for the Dems this time, especially in view of the way McCain has rolled over, and over, and over, for the far right, clear up to the torture issue, which is what convinced me that the man no longer has any character. That, and other examples, can even convince our rather stupid electorate, if repeated over, and over, and over again!
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Posted by: LLMystic on Mar 13, 2008 1:53 AM
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At the least, if imperialism is accepted as the objective, the better strategy would be to withdraw the US forces to the new military bases, which can probably be defended adequately, and let the Iraqis sort out their differences.
We can hope that eventually a new dictator will emerge. For as nasty as Saddam Hussein was, he did manage to keep relative order in a "country" which has no real national identity and where tribal and family loyalty is far more important to the people. And though he killed a lot of people to do it, I suspect he killed a lot fewer than the US has. Even if one thinks oil is the objective, the US can not even keep the oil flowing! It would have been far cheaper to let Saddam Hussein run the oil industry, and we would have gotten a lot more oil out of Iraq!
The US has ruined that option. But it is clear that sending more Americans to die and depleting our national wealth is not doing any good for Americans (except for the arms merchants and war profiteers -- and do we really want to enrich these thugs?)
If Iraq splits up into smaller states (as Yugoslavia did when its strong leader Tito died), maybe that is what the people want. After all, Iraq is a colonial creation, never a real country. Why shouldn't the Kurds and Sunnis and Shiites have their own states?
My answer to the "No surrender" rhetoric is to point out the usual cost of such stupidity, which is death and destruction and ruin. That it is just another neo-con lie should also be emphasized. Though I am not sure Americans, many of whom prefer self-deception, even recognize lies any more.
People get the government they deserve! And judging by the government we have been getting, Americans have been very very naughty!
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Posted by: scootenat65 on Mar 13, 2008 7:15 PM
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But just in case I am fitting my grandchildren for desert camo uniforms and buying stock in China.
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Posted by: grkjr on Mar 13, 2008 8:14 PM
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Posted by: cherylholmes on Mar 13, 2008 10:05 PM
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He is NOT my friend and will never be.
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Posted by: be_fearless on Mar 14, 2008 12:32 AM
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Posted by: ronheri on Mar 15, 2008 1:55 PM
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Posted by: oxheadone on Mar 16, 2008 12:15 AM
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Posted by: wilty on Mar 16, 2008 6:18 PM
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Corporate Fascist Pigs, and who has a temper problem, and at his age, is not reliable, nor is he a MAN, in my book, and for that matter, nor was John Wayne. What a hypeload of crap!
For an advanced society such as ours(?), I feel it is still deeply fixed in mythology, superstition and ignorance.
This isn't about the character of the man, it is about the mind and character of the people who are "anti-war," but pro, stay the course, in every sense of the term.
Here's a mind blow postulate: If Bush were to attack Iran, and this is certainly not a stretch; the same people would say boo, but then re-elect the sumbitch, if for some godforsaken turn of events were to happen, for a third term.
Same reasoning by the author for this postulate, and it all boils down to the totally misinformed, lazy and arrogant people who perpetuaute this God awful nightmare. Also, the Media only take this crap, and then quite ably supermaxes and synergizes it.
Anyone who dare tells the truth around here, is shot down and told to shut up. Jimmy Carter was right about the apathetic citizenry during his day, he got shot down. If Thomas Paine or Thomas Jefferson were to stand up and tell the truth as it horribly is so, they'd be tarred and feathered, and run out of town.
It's the fascism, stupid!
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» RE: right on, Wil
Posted by: GrannyBgood
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Posted by: GrannyBgood on Mar 21, 2008 7:25 AM
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If the Dems don't get their act together, show how it's REALLY going in Iraq, and wake people up, tie that Bushwar Albatross firmly around McCain's neck,
(singing BOMB BOMB BOMB IRAN all the way!)
We'll have lost this one too!
...except it will be worse, because Warmonger McCain will already START OUT with all the dictatorial powers Bush spent his 2 terms amassing!
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Posted by: independent1 on Mar 23, 2008 10:59 PM
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OTH - I think the general points made in the article apply: The Republicans have always been the minority party- only Eisenhower and Reagan managed to "include" the American people or had any sense of duty toward us. The rest - including both Bush regimes, have all been purely corporate puppets, as have been most of the Republicans in both houses of Congress.
Trouble is - according to this article and many people; the Dems have (a) no electable candidates for the White House and (2) are tied to the ninny ('get out at any cost - just like '75') peaceniks as much as the Republicans are tied to the whacko neo-cons and religious right.
Hope is not gone, I agree that the economy must be kept at the forefront and focus must be kept on the many ways Republicans have undercut and betrayed the American people (and thereby - America!).
I recently had "an ordinary American" go after me because I had sent around an email in which I said "we can thank the Republicans" - for the ease with which American companies can lay off American employees (compared to foreign employees). She went on about how our Democratic governor had committed a crime against our economy with her "small business tax." Hah ! - I sent her a copy of a 1995 economics lecture which discussed the very same tax which the current governor was accused of creating! This "rebuttal" from a defender of Republicanism came from: an accountant!! She sure isn't a historian - and that is why we must worry about Mr. and Mrs.
Average Voter.
The Republicans know they have no choice but to lie-lie-lie and lie some more to win elections (just as they did to win the last two). It is up to those who want America to at least survive in better shape than Mexico to see to it they do not win the next election - the White House or either house of Congress. They must be taught a lesson - using this election cycle to do it.
Mr. Obama, by the way - has not said anything like the "get out now" crap being promoted by the peaceniks. That alone recommends him for the Dem candidacy and the White House.
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Posted by: talkville on Mar 12, 2008 1:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Iraq was a well-planned, well-engineered and well-executed exercise in unilateral aggression and invasion of a sovereign country based on half-truths and outright lies and falsehoods. Not long ago this was called imperialism, I don't know what the current term might be. It is by now not so much a 'war' as an entrenching Occupation, being constructed from the ground up and not for the overall benefit of the Iraqi people (or those who remain living to watch it happen). The Occupation even managed to draw in al-qaeda, which had not been there before and which now provides the very pretext for remaining there (something circular about all this?)
But it may very well turn out this article is right. The rapidly deteriorating economic conditions on the domestic side and the ongoing occupation and provocations to the middle east on the foreign side cannot but increase anxieties which, of course, can only mean fears-- and when votes are cast out of fear and raw emotions this is bound to run in favor of the unlikeliest of more reasoned assessments.
In all events, it seems it will be a kind of referendum on a new age of imperial consolidation.
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» this part of the premise isn't true
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
» RE: this part of the premise isn't true
Posted by: carlos63
» RE: this part of the premise isn't true
Posted by: aichbe
» RE: this part of the premise isn't true
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Perhaps this may be true
Posted by: cherylholmes
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Posted by: AlexLawyer on Mar 12, 2008 2:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Depends on what it means to be against the war.
Posted by: Aimleft
» RE: Depends on what it means to be against the war.
Posted by: andabottleof_rum
» RE: Depends on what it means to be against the war.
Posted by: Cooltruth
» Kusinich and Paul would be on the dove's list as well...
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
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Posted by: carbon-based on Mar 12, 2008 2:54 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Neither Clinton or Obama put forth a plan for getting us out of Iraq..they only say we will withdraw immediately..any clear thinking person knows thats not possible so it paints them as inexperienced! No one wants to see their country defeated amid a war with Islamic extremest as well.
They both need to develop something with more substance than "Change" and get out of Iraq ASAP"
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» The problem is that we can't "win" either . . .
Posted by: Moonray
» RE: The problem is that we can't "win" either . . .
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: The problem is that we can't "win" either . . .
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Words vs Action!
Posted by: jareilly
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Posted by: Moonray on Mar 12, 2008 2:57 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rush Limbaugh has been chortling that the Democrats "don't have a chance" and he might be right. Look at the small number of white males who vote for Obama in state after state.
Republicans typically win by tricking working-class whites into voting against their own interests. This time, the Republicans are counting on the inherent racism and sexism of working-class whites to create that same voting trend.
If the Republicans win in November, it will represent a crisis for American democracy. That outcome would signal that most Americans KNOWINGLY embrace militarism, racism, sexism and fiscal stupidity in their choice of leaders, and America would lose what little moral standing it has left. Other developed nations would begin to disassociate themselves from us in a serious way.
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» RE: The electorate is anti-black and anti-woman
Posted by: naryaquid
» RE: The electorate is anti-black and anti-woman
Posted by: raymondg
» RE: The electorate is anti-black and anti-woman
Posted by: naryaquid
» RE: The electorate is anti-black and anti-woman
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: The electorate is anti-black and anti-woman
Posted by: naryaquid
» the vast majority of votes for Hillary were by women . . .
Posted by: Moonray
» RE: The electorate is anti-black and anti-woman
Posted by: Monitor523
» RE: The electorate is anti-black and anti-woman
Posted by: Aimleft
» RE: The electorate is anti-black and anti-woman
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: adamskiinasia on Mar 12, 2008 3:01 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Yes we can ??
Posted by: naryaquid
» RE: Yes we can ??
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Yes we can ??
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: Swedish liberal on Mar 12, 2008 3:35 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The fight against communist aggression and against totalitarianism is and will always be on the top agenda for the American people.
The decision to fight in Vietnam and Iraq was in essence correct but it was extremely poorly executed.
When it comes to setting the US on the right track and at the same time ensure that the mistakes in leaving Vietnam is not made. Leaving the population to a worse government.
The right to self determination does not mean that a totalitarian regime can take over but the right to elf determination comes from the individual.
And in this respect I think most Americans believe that John McCain is best suited to do a ordered retreat as fast as possible without leaving the Iraqi people in as dire straits as teh Vietnamese people was left in.
Unfortunately both Obama and Clinton's policies on Iraq reeks of desperation, get out as soon as possible let the Iraqis fend best they can.
If Obama and Clinton can get it across that they will as McCain combine caution with compassion for teh Iraqi people they might do much better in the polls.
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» RE: The US remembers the disastrous retreat out of Vietnam
Posted by: carbon-based
» Well said! nm
Posted by: Timba
» It is strange that so few on Alternet discuss, instead they preach to truebelievers
Posted by: Swedish liberal
» RE: It is strange that so few on Alternet discuss, instead they preach to truebelievers
Posted by: jareilly
» So the Vietnamese followed the UN charter
Posted by: Swedish liberal
» RE: It is strange that so few on Alternet discuss, instead they preach to truebelievers
Posted by: lenioui
» RE: The US remembers the disastrous retreat out of Vietnam
Posted by: Democritus
» RE: The US remembers the disastrous retreat out of Vietnam
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: The US remembers the disastrous retreat out of Vietnam
Posted by: left_libertarian
» McNamara was right!!!! (in hindsight)
Posted by: xvictor
» RE: The US remembers the disastrous retreat out of Vietnam
Posted by: Ohjin
» RE: The US remembers the disastrous retreat out of Vietnam
Posted by: D. Julian Terry
» RE: The US remembers the disastrous retreat out of Vietnam
Posted by: mkdelta69
» RE: The US remembers the disastrous retreat out of Vietnam
Posted by: mkdelta69
» RE: The US remembers the disastrous retreat out of Vietnam
Posted by: Hovey
» Bullshit alert!
Posted by: sausage
» Yes indeed bullshit alert!
Posted by: Swedish liberal
» RE: Yes indeed bullshit alert!
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Yes indeed bullshit alert!
Posted by: mkdelta69
» This Vietnam vet thinks you're living in a fantasy world . . .
Posted by: Moonray
» So the Vietnamese people chose oppression and poverty
Posted by: Swedish liberal
» You can't even get your abbreviations straight, so . . .
Posted by: Moonray
» RE: So the Vietnamese people chose oppression and poverty
Posted by: left_libertarian
» RE: The US remembers the disastrous retreat out of Vietnam
Posted by: JSquercia
» So why do you not live in China?
Posted by: Swedish liberal
» RE: So why do you not live in China?
Posted by: YogiBear
» VIETNAM TODAY: A NATION SUCCEEDING
Posted by: sofla100
» VIETNAM IS A F**G TOTALITARIAN STATE
Posted by: Swedish liberal
» THIS TRANSITION VIETNAM HERSELF HAD TO GO THROUGH, IT COULD NOT BE IMPOSED!
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: THIS TRANSITION VIETNAM HERSELF HAD TO GO THROUGH, IT COULD NOT BE IMPOSED!
Posted by: YogiBear
» Vietnam did not go through a transformation, it was forced
Posted by: Swedish liberal
» RE: Vietnam did not go through a transformation, it was forced
Posted by: mkdelta69
» RE: VIETNAM IS A F**G TOTALITARIAN STATE
Posted by: left_libertarian
» RE: VIETNAM TODAY: A Third World Country
Posted by: Ayla87
» At the rate the US was killing the people of vietnam
Posted by: chief of okeefe
» RE: At the rate the US was killing the people of vietnam
Posted by: Ayla87
» RE: VIETNAM TODAY: A Third World Country
Posted by: mkdelta69
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Posted by: Roy Eidelson on Mar 12, 2008 3:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: colinmeister on Mar 12, 2008 4:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The whole thing is probably moot
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» You have the money for war?
Posted by: ReallyBearish
» Time to join the War Resisters League
Posted by: thistleblower
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Posted by: Democritus on Mar 12, 2008 4:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McCain's latest scandal was reported in the NY Times, telling of the favors he lavished on his lobbyist friends--the ones who contributed to his campaign. This revelation came before McCain said he never took money from special interests.
Then there were the stories from other POWs about McCain's being called "Songbird" for his collaboration with his North Vietnamese captors during his 5 and a half years as a POW. Perhaps these stories have little merit, but where there's smoke, there is usually a little fire.
With respect to who can "handle" the war in Iraq, McCain has said that he agrees with George W. Bush and the latest "surge." What that surge has done is to create a status quo in which we have three sorts of armed militias--Sunni, Shia, and Kurd--that are just itching to have a go at one another as soon as each thinks it might get the upper hand. At the same time, our occupation forces are hunkering down while the puppet government in Iraq siphons $12 billion a month from our treasury for maintaining our troops there.
So what McCain is proposing in supporting Bush's policies is a road to financial ruin for no benefit whatsoever, and the Iraqi oil money which was supposed to go toward rebuilding Iraq is now contributing to a surplus in the Iraqi treasury.
If that weren't bad enough, there is the question of McCain's bellicose stand against Iran. What the American electorate has to be told--over and over, apparently--is that a McCain presidency will allow him a "do over" with Iran. Judging from the disaster that was Iraq, the coming disaster with Iran will surely put a last nail in the coffin of American imperialism. Would McCain be smarter than that? Not likely. Remember that he graduated fifth from the bottom of his class at Annapolis.
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» Songbird-dangerous territory
Posted by: Timba
» RE: McCain loses on the character issue
Posted by: djnoll
» RE: McCain loses on the character issue
Posted by: 1in5
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Posted by: maxpayne on Mar 12, 2008 5:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is it America's lust for driving those big-butt vans and SUVs and to keep that macho/individualist attitude?
And what about the defunding and stipulations forced against alternative renewables such as solar and wind or even the illegalization of Industrial Hemp which is not only renewable but does not deplete and has 25000 industrial uses?
And what about all those silly gizmos out there such as IPods and those gigantic HDTVs you can't resist?
Yes, they all require lots and lots of petroleum to manufacture. The rising crude oil prices that have been going on long term and the fact that America REFUSES to consider putting those alternative renewables to work by buying into the lies of Big Oil, Chemical, Agri, etc ... is what is keeping this country occupying one oil-rich nation after another. Well, I'm happy to be conserving and looking for petroleum-free alternative products which I'm surprisingly able to get a 90% success at. Or maybe I'm too frugal like our ancestors before the after WWII folks?
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» Share your backyard bounty
Posted by: thistleblower
» RE: Share your backyard bounty
Posted by: rainingwolf
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Posted by: xvictor on Mar 12, 2008 5:25 AM
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» RE: McCain is as warhawkish as u can get!!!
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: McCain is as warhawkish as u can get!!!
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: left_libertarian on Mar 12, 2008 5:32 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Iraq
Had no WMD
No ties to al-Quida
Had nothing to do with 9/11
And to think that its military was a direct threat to the US is not only a joke, but an insult to the greatest military the world has ever know.
So to say, as McCain believes, that the war can be 'won:'it's already lost. The lies become a sad truth, Bush and Cheney are free because the Democratic Party does not have a sense of justice and the courage to impeach these criminals
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Posted by: smendler on Mar 12, 2008 5:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: douglashoyt on Mar 12, 2008 6:10 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"I would rather have Obama on my basketball team, Hillary on my debate team, but McCain should run the National Security Team."
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» I sure wouldn't want McCain
Posted by: Ellie1
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Mar 12, 2008 6:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: QCao009 on Mar 12, 2008 6:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
McCain talks about "no surrender", but his party surrendered in Vietnam and spun it with our tacit agreement, the Chomsky crowd included. The truth is others have always paid and continue to pay for our so-called victories: the Vietnamese killed, the Iraquis killed, the Afghans killed, the young Americans killed and those walking the streets now homeless and broken and a threat to a civil society because we are not treating them with any civility.
A true leader needs to talk about winning the peace. S(he) can appeal to the voters in a very different way by connecting the dots between a failing economy and a duped war(one we have been tricked and trapped by Iran and our ennemies to enter). A true leader can talk about a global economy and an American economy that can thrive on collaboration and competition and not just shopping and cheap gas.
It is fascinating to watch a young man grow old. A young Bill Clinton was once able to do both: be precise and be concise, talk about one issue and string many issues together. May be Senator Obama will grow into that leadership. So far, a plan of withdrawing and attacking McCain is just not enough on this issue. It simply reflects our shallowness. The Bush/Cheney presidency has really lowered our standard of leadership. Our idea of what a winner is has made all of us losers.
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» RE: Winning; QCao009
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: Winning through truth
Posted by: Itsthewater
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Posted by: LeeAnnG on Mar 12, 2008 6:38 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Clinton wins the nomination, the thrust is more likely to be "if Senator Clinton can't even be loyal to her own party, how can she be trusted to have the integrity is takes to be president?"
Clinton's lack of character, her need to win at all costs, and her poor judgement just might be the final straw needed to help the democrats snatch defeat from the jaws of victory again.
I had planned to vote for any democrat, even if I didn't agree with that person's entire platform. Hillary Clinton makes it hard to do that. She has undermined her opponent to the point of appearing to support the other party's candidate. I have no respect for her now, and I have less and less hope that there will be a democrat in the White House next year.
This article is a clear indication to me that Clinton's fearmongering ads and attacks on Obama's competence have the potential to be absolutely devastating to the democrats. I agree with a poster above who said that many Americans are not opposed to the war on principle or because it's illegal imperialism based on lies. Many just don't like it because we are losing; these people would change their minds if their perception was that we were winning. That would explain why the "success" of the "surge" has increased approval ratings of the war.
For awhile it seemed that the democrats might pull off a victory, but that becomes more doubtful every time Clinton uncovers a new campaign tactic. One can only hope that Pennsylvania goes to Obama and she recognizes that she has lost. The former is possible, the latter unlikely.
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» Clinton is only loyal to Clinton
Posted by: chief of okeefe
» RE: Clinton is only loyal to Clinton
Posted by: lenioui
» RE: Handing a campaign to the other side
Posted by: dangerouslysane
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Posted by: surfreality on Mar 12, 2008 6:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Iran is the beneficiary of this failed strategy as they are seen by the majority of Iraqi Shia as the best protectors of their interests. The Iranian President's recent visit to Iraq was a remarkable contrast to that of President Bush.
Bush had to practically sneak in...
The surge is keeping the Iraqi warring factions apart to some degree for now, but it is likely that there will be a horrendous civil war. The question is weather or not we want American troops in the middle of the upcoming bloodbath.
Cost of failed strategy so far: 1000s dead, 3 trillion dollars and world wide enmity.
Value to the jihadists: priceless.
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Posted by: daw13 on Mar 12, 2008 6:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: People see war as good economics
Posted by: Burgerdroid
» RE: People see war as good economics
Posted by: mkdelta69
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Posted by: center_peace on Mar 12, 2008 6:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Every time McCain declares "No Surrender", retort "At what cost?".
After every speech, debate or ad, end it with, "And in the time just we've spent talking, the War in Iraq has just cost the next three generations of your family $______. You OWE it to them to stop this war now."
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» RE: It's the economy...
Posted by: John Edward
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Posted by: sausage on Mar 12, 2008 6:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have already saddled outselves with guilt over an impending bloodbath should American ground forces leave Iraq; unleasing a torrent of suicide jacket-wearing al Qaeda terrors on the world like a whirlwind of evil jinn. Improbable images of hook-nosed demons bombing
sports stadiums and poisoning water supplies are ladled up to us in our newspapers, television and radios.
With images like that dancing in our collective pinheads, perhaps Senator John "He's a war hero" McCain's call for the United States staying 100 years in Iraq isn't such a bad idea after all. We've kept the Germans in check for sixty years and maintained the peace on the Korean peninsula for fifty...so 100 years in Iraq,eh?
To paraphrase comedian George Carlin, that's bullshit and it's bad for you.
Rather than heeding a "war hero" or our own national guilt over the bloodbaths and acts of genocide American inflicted upon itself and foreign peoples in the past, when it comes to Iraq, we must heed the words of M.K. Gandhi to Lord Louis Montbattern on the eve of Indian partition:"You must face the bloodbath and accept it."
It is time we, the American people, stopped being the most cowardly people on the planet who hide their unwarrented fears behind military bombast and threats of nuclear destruction. No more United States of Scaredy Cats.
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Posted by: kirkmuse on Mar 12, 2008 7:08 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All military occupations end by the occupiers going home. It's time to end the occupation and bring our troops home.
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» RE: OCCUPATION--OCCUPATION--OCCUPATION
Posted by: willymack
» RE: OCCUPATION--OCCUPATION--OCCUPATION
Posted by: nochicagoboys
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Posted by: opmoc on Mar 12, 2008 8:57 AM
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google video
wiki description
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» RE: The Power of Nightmares : The Rise of the Politics of Fear
Posted by: mwildfire
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Posted by: QQOblivion on Mar 12, 2008 9:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
By the way, with all these coming wars, we may very likely not be fighting all of them "over there". The US may, for the first time in a long time, be fighting a couple of these wars on US soil. You've been warned.
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Posted by: kentigereyes@yahoo.com on Mar 12, 2008 9:18 AM
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Mar 12, 2008 9:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Barak Obama, 2002:
"That’s what Im opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.
Now let me be clear: I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity. He’s a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.
But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.
I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences.
I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the middle east, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of Al Queda.
I am not opposed to all wars. I’m opposed to dumb wars."
Hillary Clinton, 2002:
In an October 2002 speech on the Senate floor, Clinton said that if left unchecked, Hussein "will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
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Posted by: Illiteratilumen on Mar 12, 2008 9:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyone who has ever done a Zogby poll can tell you that the questions are often non-specific and very often leading. Few of them allow for free-form answers and instead force you to choose one of five answers, neither of which capture any sort of complexity.
For instance, if I "somewhat oppose" the occupation in Iraq instead of "strongly oppose" do I actually mostly support it? Lets say the poll concludes that "Opponents of the war support John McCain". Do those war opponents include those that "somewhat oppose" the war or only those that are "strongly opposed"? Tough to say unless you can actually look at the raw data and the logic used to draw conclusions.
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Posted by: BCcovers on Mar 12, 2008 10:39 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: economy
Posted by: dangerouslysane
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Mar 12, 2008 11:05 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am glad democrats are getting what they deserve. I hope it continues until they finally understand how futile it is to keep lying to themselves.
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» right ON
Posted by: realtruther
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Posted by: rsmohio on Mar 12, 2008 11:40 AM
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Posted by: rafey on Mar 12, 2008 12:16 PM
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Posted by: aonghus36 on Mar 12, 2008 1:15 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: bcgirl125 on Mar 12, 2008 2:06 PM
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http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a2818.htm#001
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Posted by: amarilloeldo on Mar 12, 2008 2:26 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If experience is the important factor, McKain appears to be strongest, although quite removed from foreign affairs. If we fear the image of us running home from Iraq with our tail between our legs, then Mc Kain probably looks better. If the ending of hostilities is considered within the context of winner-loser, then McKain probably looks best to the citizens.
The ideas that Hillary has foreign policy experience by osmosis , or that Barrack has foreign policy expertise by natural talent, are unlikely to persuade the voters. The idea that John McKain has more foreign policy experience because of age or because he sat on a committee made of mostly white American men and studied the pentagon budget is more likely to persuade the voters.
Who is defining these issues? Let’s look at another definition we’ve used to understand national elections. For the past 15 or 20 years, states have been branded as either red or blue and accordingly issues have been presented simplistically as either one way or another. There were many reasons for this not the least of which was that the issues can easily be “explained” in sound bites that fit easily between the commercials. [Tangent: news as programmed learning]
Issues are complex. States that might be either blue or red were typecast as populated by ultra-rightists and -leftists, not thoughtful centrists. That always bugged me but i never conveyed my annoyance convincingly, People thought the concept of Blue/Red helpful while I saw it as threatening to our complexity and strength as a nation.
Obama, however, showed us the error. He said, “There are not Red People and Blue People. There are all sorts of Americans, Red, blue and purple and most of us bleed red, white and blue. He killed the curse of the color brand. He took it to where the conclusion of the Red/Blue thing inevitably went and said there are no Red or blue people. You see, Obama really is a man of our children’s generation. Besides having a gift for communication he’s the type of guy who sees no conflict between a redneck and earrings or a delicate young woman and fierce tattoos or even the marriage between the two. His question becomes one of finding the common thread not defining restrictive limitations.
So, in the issue of who will be more able to successfully end the war, Obama might be the guy who can ask of those who fear failure, “What would be success?” When that is answered, success is easy. No one has asked that. Do we want a foreign policy or do we want to have on-going foreign relations. McKain is hardly the person we want developing foreign relations--he’s a Doctor Strangelove. If we want iron-handed foreign policy that brands other nations as either friend or enemy, then McKain’s the guy. If we want a leader who can come to terms with the other nations on this little earth and find ways to use our similarities to the advantage while allowing differences and respecting boundaries, Obama is our only hope. The ideas we have about other peoples, that muslims are superstitious and heinous, that French are complacent, weak and callous, that the Swedish have no joy from being taxed so highly, and that we alone amongst the peoples of the world are the happy, free, smart, and superior, then we will continue to be seen as dim-witted, overweight , narrow-minded imperialists.
Until we take a hand in specifying the context, the questions will be phrased in mind-control contexts. Besides, history shows that prior government experience is a flaw rather than an asset for a president.
.
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Posted by: sofla100 on Mar 12, 2008 2:45 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Finally someone with the gonads to say what the issue is
Posted by: chief of okeefe
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Posted by: YogiBear on Mar 12, 2008 3:10 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But I doubt either consideration will have much of an effect on the actual tally; most who are anti-war aren't going to throw away their convictions that easily. I expect they'll vote their hearts and hope for the best.
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Posted by: zeroman on Mar 12, 2008 3:26 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that's just not true. what they are saying, if anyone is listening (and not even really hard) is that they DO NOT plan to withdraw from iraq - they go on and on about "our national interests" and talk about a protracted withdrawal over a number of months that can turn into years, with all sorts of caveats about circumstances in which they will redeploy the troops.
that's NOT a withdrawal plan - it's a continuation of imperial meddling. and if no-one asked me to question the imperial nature of our presence in Iraq, and i had to choose between someone who straight out supports empire, and someone who waffles about it, i would probably vote for the one who beats the loudest drum.
The Democrats can win on Iraq too - if they said, clearly, that WE DO NOT BELONG THERE, the Iraqis don't want us there, and the American people don't want us there. And, finally, that we as a country will be SAFER if we get the hell out of the Middle East and give up our goal of controlling the world's oil supplies.
unfortunately, they don't say any such thing, because they believe no such thing - the plan is to continue to exert imperial power but give it a friendlier face. look at their positions on Israel, for crying out loud!
What we need to worry about is not whether a Dem or a Rep will be in office, but about whether we as a people will be organized and active enough to force WHOEVER is in office to end imperialist practice.
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Posted by: leafsong1 on Mar 12, 2008 4:40 PM
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Posted by: wishninja on Mar 12, 2008 5:13 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Al sadr broke the truse today
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Al sadr broke the truse today
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: chief of okeefe on Mar 12, 2008 6:52 PM
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I guarantee a war that gets nearly all of us killed. No one can be tougher than that!!
I will start attacking everyone and everything America. So elect me!!!
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» RE: If I promise to immediately start a nuclear war will you elect me?
Posted by: mwildfire
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Posted by: chief of okeefe on Mar 12, 2008 7:18 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Then the US would be so preoccupied with the internal problems, it would be in no position to continue it's campaign of aggression against the rest of the planet. This would save the lives of thousands, maybe millions, of people who will die at the hands of that bloodthirsty lunatic McCain.
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» RE: There is no freakin solution except secession
Posted by: realtruther
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Posted by: larryfhilton on Mar 12, 2008 11:08 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whatever else, Karl Rove is smart, and when the public believes the opponent has more character than his guy, he takes the opponent head on and attacks his strong point--character. That has won for his guys, and will win for the Dems this time, especially in view of the way McCain has rolled over, and over, and over, for the far right, clear up to the torture issue, which is what convinced me that the man no longer has any character. That, and other examples, can even convince our rather stupid electorate, if repeated over, and over, and over again!
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Posted by: LLMystic on Mar 13, 2008 1:53 AM
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At the least, if imperialism is accepted as the objective, the better strategy would be to withdraw the US forces to the new military bases, which can probably be defended adequately, and let the Iraqis sort out their differences.
We can hope that eventually a new dictator will emerge. For as nasty as Saddam Hussein was, he did manage to keep relative order in a "country" which has no real national identity and where tribal and family loyalty is far more important to the people. And though he killed a lot of people to do it, I suspect he killed a lot fewer than the US has. Even if one thinks oil is the objective, the US can not even keep the oil flowing! It would have been far cheaper to let Saddam Hussein run the oil industry, and we would have gotten a lot more oil out of Iraq!
The US has ruined that option. But it is clear that sending more Americans to die and depleting our national wealth is not doing any good for Americans (except for the arms merchants and war profiteers -- and do we really want to enrich these thugs?)
If Iraq splits up into smaller states (as Yugoslavia did when its strong leader Tito died), maybe that is what the people want. After all, Iraq is a colonial creation, never a real country. Why shouldn't the Kurds and Sunnis and Shiites have their own states?
My answer to the "No surrender" rhetoric is to point out the usual cost of such stupidity, which is death and destruction and ruin. That it is just another neo-con lie should also be emphasized. Though I am not sure Americans, many of whom prefer self-deception, even recognize lies any more.
People get the government they deserve! And judging by the government we have been getting, Americans have been very very naughty!
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Posted by: scootenat65 on Mar 13, 2008 7:15 PM
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But just in case I am fitting my grandchildren for desert camo uniforms and buying stock in China.
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Posted by: grkjr on Mar 13, 2008 8:14 PM
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Posted by: cherylholmes on Mar 13, 2008 10:05 PM
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He is NOT my friend and will never be.
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Posted by: be_fearless on Mar 14, 2008 12:32 AM
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Posted by: ronheri on Mar 15, 2008 1:55 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: oxheadone on Mar 16, 2008 12:15 AM
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Posted by: wilty on Mar 16, 2008 6:18 PM
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Corporate Fascist Pigs, and who has a temper problem, and at his age, is not reliable, nor is he a MAN, in my book, and for that matter, nor was John Wayne. What a hypeload of crap!
For an advanced society such as ours(?), I feel it is still deeply fixed in mythology, superstition and ignorance.
This isn't about the character of the man, it is about the mind and character of the people who are "anti-war," but pro, stay the course, in every sense of the term.
Here's a mind blow postulate: If Bush were to attack Iran, and this is certainly not a stretch; the same people would say boo, but then re-elect the sumbitch, if for some godforsaken turn of events were to happen, for a third term.
Same reasoning by the author for this postulate, and it all boils down to the totally misinformed, lazy and arrogant people who perpetuaute this God awful nightmare. Also, the Media only take this crap, and then quite ably supermaxes and synergizes it.
Anyone who dare tells the truth around here, is shot down and told to shut up. Jimmy Carter was right about the apathetic citizenry during his day, he got shot down. If Thomas Paine or Thomas Jefferson were to stand up and tell the truth as it horribly is so, they'd be tarred and feathered, and run out of town.
It's the fascism, stupid!
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» RE: right on, Wil
Posted by: GrannyBgood
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Posted by: GrannyBgood on Mar 21, 2008 7:25 AM
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If the Dems don't get their act together, show how it's REALLY going in Iraq, and wake people up, tie that Bushwar Albatross firmly around McCain's neck,
(singing BOMB BOMB BOMB IRAN all the way!)
We'll have lost this one too!
...except it will be worse, because Warmonger McCain will already START OUT with all the dictatorial powers Bush spent his 2 terms amassing!
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Posted by: independent1 on Mar 23, 2008 10:59 PM
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OTH - I think the general points made in the article apply: The Republicans have always been the minority party- only Eisenhower and Reagan managed to "include" the American people or had any sense of duty toward us. The rest - including both Bush regimes, have all been purely corporate puppets, as have been most of the Republicans in both houses of Congress.
Trouble is - according to this article and many people; the Dems have (a) no electable candidates for the White House and (2) are tied to the ninny ('get out at any cost - just like '75') peaceniks as much as the Republicans are tied to the whacko neo-cons and religious right.
Hope is not gone, I agree that the economy must be kept at the forefront and focus must be kept on the many ways Republicans have undercut and betrayed the American people (and thereby - America!).
I recently had "an ordinary American" go after me because I had sent around an email in which I said "we can thank the Republicans" - for the ease with which American companies can lay off American employees (compared to foreign employees). She went on about how our Democratic governor had committed a crime against our economy with her "small business tax." Hah ! - I sent her a copy of a 1995 economics lecture which discussed the very same tax which the current governor was accused of creating! This "rebuttal" from a defender of Republicanism came from: an accountant!! She sure isn't a historian - and that is why we must worry about Mr. and Mrs.
Average Voter.
The Republicans know they have no choice but to lie-lie-lie and lie some more to win elections (just as they did to win the last two). It is up to those who want America to at least survive in better shape than Mexico to see to it they do not win the next election - the White House or either house of Congress. They must be taught a lesson - using this election cycle to do it.
Mr. Obama, by the way - has not said anything like the "get out now" crap being promoted by the peaceniks. That alone recommends him for the Dem candidacy and the White House.
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