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Will the Clash of Faiths Go On Forever?

By Daniel Lazare, The Nation. Posted March 4, 2008.


Religious conflict rages on, despite claims we live in a "secular age" -- two authors explore the clash of beliefs.

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Reviewed:

Divided by Faith: Religious Conflict and the Practice of Toleration in Early Modern Europe by Benjamin J. Kaplan

God's Crucible: Islam and the Making of Europe, 570-1215 by David Levering Lewis



Other than outright jihadis like Osama bin Laden and hard-core Zionist settlers in the West Bank, most people would agree that religious zealotry is out of control and ought to be reined in. The question is how to do it. On one side of the debate are the hards, those militant atheists who argue that the problem is not so much religious discord as religion itself, an idea that has given rise to repeated horrors not because it is misapplied or misunderstood but because it is false and therefore a poor guide to reality. Bad theories lead to bad outcomes, which is why the best way to deal with theism is to do to it what Copernicus did to Ptolemy, or Darwin to Lamarck -- finish it off as quickly as possible so the world can move on.

On the other side are the softs, those nice ecumenicists who contend that since it's unlikely that the world's believers will endorse the writings of Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris and Daniel Dennett anytime soon, we had all better learn to live together in our present state. Religion is therefore tolerable as long as it's not used as a justification to harass thy neighbor or condemn him to hell over minute theological differences. Call it the Kumbaya coalition, if you will.



Although it is uncertain how David Levering Lewis fits into this debate based on his seriously misconceived new book, God's Crucible, there is no doubt as to Benjamin Kaplan. Judging from Divided by Faith, his account of the elaborate measures that small groups of Catholics and Protestants took to keep the peace during the wars of religion of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, he is what might be called a hard-core softie, a fanatical believer in religious compromise as the key to preventing conflict. Whereas other historians of the era chronicle all the horrible things that the religious combatants did to one another -- Germany suffered more mass devastation in the Thirty Years War of 1618-48 than it did during World War II -- he describes the ingenious mechanisms Europeans employed to avoid killing one another in the name of a peace-loving Christ. Since such measures were mainly modest and small-scale, the result is history with the big stuff like wars, treaties and affairs of state left out and the minor adjustments and adaptations left in. Exciting it's not. But since life is often unexciting (especially when it's peaceful), Kaplan's version of how people got along in between the era's great battles and confrontations is not unimportant.

We learn from Kaplan that because lords and knights in sixteenth-century Austria enjoyed the right to hold Protestant services in their castles, houses and estates, Protestants in nominally Catholic Vienna would parade through the streets every Sunday morning on their way to some nearby Protestant nobleman's estate, where they would worship freely before heading back home. No one killed them as a consequence of their Auslauf ("walking out"), no one arrested them and no one drove them into exile, no small thing in the fraught climate of the 1570s, when Dutch Protestants and Catholic Habsburgs were battling in the Netherlands and English Puritans were clamoring for the head of Mary, Queen of Scots. In Strasbourg and the southern German towns of Ulm and Biberach, all dominated by Protestants, it was the Catholics who marched every Sunday so they could pray outside the city walls. In Danzig (now Gdansk, Poland), Socinians (otherwise known as Unitarians) marched to the nearby villages of Busków and Straszyn, while in Hamburg Mennonites marched to Altona, now a nearby suburb. All did so unmolested, even though elsewhere in Europe such displays would have been explosive.

Under a policy known as "simultaneum," Catholics and Protestants in biconfessional (dual religious) cities even learned to share the same church. If this sounds unremarkable, consider what would happen today if some rabidly Zionist rabbi and a firebrand imam were required to share the same synagogue or mosque. In liberal Holland -- about which an English diplomat once remarked, "Religion may possibly do more good in other places, but it does less harm here" -- the problem was how to square the freedom of conscience guaranteed by the Union of Utrecht, the 1579 treaty that gave rise to the Dutch republic, with the religious monopoly of the Dutch Reformed Church. The treaty allowed the Dutch to believe in any religion they liked but to practice only one. What to do? With their usual pragmatism, the Dutch settled on a policy of official conformity and unofficial laxity, a policy exemplified by the tiny schuilkerken (literally, "house churches") that members of Holland's substantial Catholic minority were permitted to build in attics, backrooms and courtyards. Cozy and gemütlich, these were the antithesis of the grandiose Baroque structures springing up in Catholic territories. Lacking such outward displays as crosses, bells or towers, they were nonetheless richly outfitted with altars, galleries, organs and vaulted roofs. Since keeping a low profile was essential, one such schuilkerk entered into an elaborate agreement with the Amsterdam town fathers not to park sleds out front, not to allow crowds to congregate or parade through the streets and not to schedule services so that parishioners would interfere with crowds of Protestant worshipers heading off to their own churches.

By seventeenth-century standards, such restrictions were so mild as to be positively disorienting. In 1660 a Dutch Mennonite named Thieleman van Braght waxed nostalgic for the good old days when his group was the most harshly treated sect in the country. Mennonites had stood bravely by their faith during the years of persecution, but with liberalization, he complained, had come a "pernicious worldly-mindedness," a decline in morals and a falling away of religious ardor. Just as the worst way to torture a masochist is to treat him nicely, the worst way to treat a would-be religious martyr is to bombard him with tolerance.

Clearly, then, minor adjustments to religious practice did for a time succeed in preventing religious strife in the early modern era, which is one reason Kaplan celebrates them. But there is another reason: they are all pre-Enlightenment measures instituted at a time when secularism was still in its infancy. After a detailed discussion of schuilkerken, Sunday parades and the like, Divided by Faith concludes by arguing that the age of secularization that the 1648 Treaty of Westphalia supposedly ushered in with the conclusion of the Thirty Years War may not have been as deeply rooted as is usually thought. Religious persecution was ostensibly on the wane, yet Louis XIV revoked the Edict of Nantes in 1685, depriving Protestant Huguenots of their civil rights and sending some 300,000 of them into exile. Shortly after, the Duke of Savoy succumbed to intense French pressure by summarily ordering descendants of medieval heretics known as the Waldensians to convert to Catholicism. When they revolted instead, he imprisoned some 9,000 of them for months, stood by as two-thirds of them died from their confinement and then sent the rest on a forced march through the snow-covered Alps to Switzerland. From 1702 to 1705, Protestants and Catholics traded tit-for-tat atrocities in the South of France in a particularly brutal conflict known as the War of the Cévennes. In 1731 Catholic authorities expelled some 19,000 Lutherans from the archbishopric of Salzburg, Austria. As late as 1780, rioting and mass destruction erupted in London in response to a modest bill in Parliament aimed at removing a few of the anti-Catholic legal indemnities left over from the previous century. Enlightened sectors of society had assumed that religious hatred was a thing of the past. But the Gordon Riots -- named for the flamboyant Lord George Gordon, leader of the Protestant Association -- showed that antipapism was still a force to be reckoned with.




All these episodes of religious-fueled strife lead Kaplan to a bold and simple conclusion: the Enlightenment has been oversold. The story of a new spirit of secularism chasing away the medieval fog is, he writes,






an ideological construct that perpetuates our ignorance. It is a myth, not only in being at variance with known facts, but in being a symbolic story, with heroes and villains and a moral -- a story told about the past to explain or justify a present state of affairs. According to this myth, toleration triumphed in the eighteenth century because reason triumphed over faith. It triumphed because religion lost its hold on people, and hence its importance as a historical phenomenon.

To the contrary, Kaplan argues that the Enlightenment did not filter down to the masses for the most part and that, in the countryside at least, churches remained as crowded as ever. Rather than suffer a loss of influence, religion changed. New forms of pietism arose among Catholics and Protestants that were private and individualistic. A new generation of theologians argued that there was nothing in religion at odds with strengthening state institutions, educating the masses or upgrading manners and morals. Where previously the Holy Roman Empire had been a bastion of reaction, Emperor Joseph II issued his famous Patents of Toleration in the 1780s declaring that faith is not something that can be forced but "a gift of God." While Catholicism was still the "only saving faith," there was nothing the authorities could or should do with the "unhappy wretches" who refused to accept it other than entrust them to God's mercy. "Without this approach," Joseph said, "we shall not save any greater number of souls, and we shall lose a great many more useful and essential people." The "welfare of the state" and Christian teachings both demanded toleration.

Kaplan does not flinch when it comes to suggesting what all this might mean for global politics in the twenty-first century. Instead of swallowing the Enlightenment line that religion is the enemy, he says, we should recognize that "bona fide religion" comes in all shapes and sizes and that not all are fanatical and intolerant. Rather than defending the myths of the eighteenth century, we should look to the practical, small-bore achievements of the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries: "As limited, tension-ridden, and discriminatory as their accommodations and arrangements were, they can open our eyes to the unique qualities of the toleration we practice today and the possibility of other options." Instead of battling the religious tide, we should concentrate on steering it in a more benign direction.

It's a tempting story, but an erroneous one. Contrary to Divided by Faith, secularization did not begin with the Enlightenment but instead emerged during a considerably earlier period. Its origins can be traced back to the rise of the politiques during the French wars of religion of the 1560s and after -- people like Jean Bodin, the theorist who invented the modern concept of political sovereignty, and King Henry IV, whose famous remark, "Paris is well worth a mass," which the king supposedly uttered after converting from Protestantism to Catholicism in 1593, summed up the growing view that religion was an impediment to statecraft. Religious zealotry was obviously growing, but so too was the realization that sectarian warfare was a dead end, a view amply confirmed by the Thirty Years War. As Swedish, Danish, French, Dutch, Spanish and German troops rampaged across the countryside, religious considerations disappeared amid a welter of bloody betrayals and cynical backstairs deals so convoluted that it is still hard to sort them all out. By the time the slaughter was over, swarms of practical, hard-nosed

politiques had descended on Westphalia to sort out the mess. With negotiators apportioning churches and jurisdictions among the various denominations, it was plain that their chief concern was not the victory of any one sect but putting a lid on the violence so Germany could recover.

Pace Kaplan, religion was a spent force before the Age of Reason came along. In fact, its exhaustion is what paved the way for the eighteenth-century pietism he celebrates. Not unlike the schuilkerken of the seventeenth century, pietism reflected a new appreciation that religion was increasingly explosive as a public force and could be defused only by being privatized forthwith. Instead of parading about with crucifixes, it was better to retreat into the vastness of the individual soul. Kaplan advances a tortuous argument to the effect that the shock that the freethinker Pierre Bayle expressed over Louis XIV's revocation of the Edict of Nantes was a tacit admission that the Enlightenment did not go very deep. After all, if Louis's action showed that Catholicism was as "savage and intractable" as ever, as Bayle put it, then conditions were little changed. But Bayle's reaction shows the opposite. The Enlightenment created a new frame of reference, one that changed the way people looked at political events. As a consequence, what was formerly normal was now seen as intolerable. Whereas before, someone like Bayle would have merely shrugged at some religious atrocity or other, he was now beside himself with indignation. Intolerance of one sort had to rise so that another sort could fall.

In retrospect, the small-scale arrangements Kaplan extols seem like stopgaps or, worse, ways of filling up the time between explosions. Plainly, the Protestants who strolled through Vienna on their way to a private service singing "Maintain us, Lord, within thy word,/And fend off murd'rous Pope and Turk" were not seeking to ingratiate themselves with their Catholic neighbors. Instead, they were shouting defiance and steeling themselves for the next confrontation. What would be the equivalent of the Auslauf in today's Middle East -- Shiite Muslims parading through Baghdad singing "Maintain us, Allah, and fend off the murd'rous Sunnis"? Or perhaps Jewish settlers chanting "Down with Islam" as they smash their way through the streets of Hebron?

It is quixotic to expect forces like these to act peaceably. While religion is not always intolerant, any ideology that elevates faith over such mundane considerations as reason and evidence is always prey to fanaticism. Meanwhile, it is impossible not to notice a hint of coercion in Kaplan's defense of "bona fide religion" as a possible force for peace and cooperation. What can this possibly mean -- only those religions (or strains thereof) that meet Kaplan's ecumenical standard are "in good faith" and therefore worthy of support, while the ornery ones that insist they're right and everyone else is wrong are not? By the same token, what does this mean for the legions of irate atheists who also insist that they are the only ones who are right? Do they have a place in Kaplan's concordat? Or are they also too disruptive?

Rather than empowering "good" religions and repressing "bad" ones, which is what such distinctions imply, the solution, once again, lies in imposing peace by strictly subordinating religion to the needs of modern society. Whether this requires religion's marginalization, it certainly requires its neutering. Kaplan's postmodern skepticism vis-à-vis religion, progress and science may still be trendy in some quarters (although distinctly less so in the Age of W, with its anti-Darwinism and hostility to science in general). But it is not helping matters. Divided by Faith is proof that bad history can lead to bad prescriptions about contemporary politics -- and vice versa.



Such confusion is also evident in God's Crucible, an account of Islamic-Christian warfare over the course of some seven centuries. Although occasionally vivid and exciting, God's Crucible is essentially a case of a stirring narrative in search of a theme. The nearest Lewis comes to finding one is when he argues that the Franks were wrong to resist a Saracen incursion in 732. If the Moors had prevailed at the Battle of Poitiers (or Tours, as it is also known), Europeans not only would have been exposed to astronomy, trigonometry and Greek philosophy -- all of which Muslims knew but Christians did not -- but also would have gained entrée to "a cosmopolitan, Muslim regnum unobstructed by borders…one devoid of a priestly caste, animated by the dogma of equality of the faithful, and respectful of all religious faiths." Indeed, Lewis calculates that they would have leapt ahead by exactly 267 years, nearly to the year 1000, that is. But since it was the Franks who won, Europe was doomed to continue on a path that God's Crucible characterizes as "economically retarded, balkanized…fratricidal." By "defining itself in opposition to Islam," Lewis writes, Europe wound up making a virtue "out of religious persecution, cultural particularism, and hereditary aristocracy." The result, it would seem, has been religious warfare, riots in Parisian banlieues and rising levels of economic inequality. Evidently, we're still paying the price.

It would be nice to report that Lewis, a professor at NYU and the author of a Pulitzer Prize-winning biography of W.E.B. Du Bois, is being satirical in suggesting that the West would have been better off going Muslim. But he is all too serious. Perhaps hearing a long line of historians from Edward Gibbon to Victor Davis Hanson describe Charles Martel's triumph at Poitiers as a victory for civilization got Lewis's dander up to the point that he decided to write a book saying the opposite. In any event, the basic problem with God's Crucible has to do with the linkage of Islam and cultural advancement, a connection Lewis seems to regard as so simple and self-evident as to render further thought unnecessary. Since tenth-century Córdoba was a large and glittering city -- "the brilliant ornament of the world," in the judgment of a visiting Saxon nun named Hroswitha of Gandersheim -- at a time when Paris was little more than a country town, then, no doubt about it, it was the Muslims who were ahead and the Christian Franks who were behind.

What Lewis fails to recognize is that while a society can be deficient in some respects, it can be advanced in others that eventually prove more important, even if the benefits are not immediately apparent. Lewis points out that the caliphate had a sophisticated system of taxation while the Franks had virtually no tax system at all. But the absence of a tax system was a relief to the peasantry, since it meant that the economic burdens on them would remain comparatively light. He notes that the Muslim emir Abd al-Rahman I had a sophisticated army at his command, whereas all Charlemagne had was a promise from his nobles to assemble every spring with their horses, armor and weaponry. But Rahman I's army was a slave force, whereas Charlemagne's was free, which is no doubt why the Christian side eventually came out on top.

Lewis further notes that gold coinage had disappeared from Western Europe, especially the portion of Northern France controlled by the Franks; that trade had come to a near standstill; that spices, jade and other imported luxuries "were dimmest memories"; and that the Western European economy had cut itself off from "the Mediterranean engine that had once quickened it." This is all quite true. But he also observes that "food, however, was plentiful" in the Frankish territories, that cattle breeding had improved and that production of brine-preserved fish "made for an energy-fueled diet sufficient to grow the big-boned frames of the typical blond Frank warrior." The question, which he does not address, is what one had to do with the other, what a decline in trade had to do with a rising level of agricultural productivity.



Very much, in fact. In pulling away from the Mediterranean, Northern Europe was indeed closing in on itself. Economic isolation of this sort did not result in economic decline, as Lewis all too readily assumes, but in what sociologist Michael Mann describes as a process of economic intensification. As trade contracted, lords and peasants turned their attention to raising output on their estates and plots of land. Since rents were comparatively low and taxes nonexistent, peasants had an incentive to boost productivity. Humble but important technological innovations began to spread as a consequence: the water mill, the heavy iron plow, the three-crop rotational system (which allowed each field to be used a third more often), plus the horseshoe, the horse collar and more efficient types of harnesses. The upshot was more effective use of animal power, more efficient transport and, from the ninth century through the early thirteenth, a doubling in crop yields, a breakthrough that economic historian Georges Duby has rightly described as the first great agricultural revolution.

Frankish society was rude and unpolished, in other words, but economically dynamic. It was also, relatively speaking, free. Whereas slavery on the northern side of the Pyrenees essentially disappeared by the eleventh century, it remained as widespread as ever on the other. The balkanized European power structure that Lewis decries was equally a two-edged sword. It was inefficient, certainly, but also made autocracy unthinkable. Indeed, that is why Charlemagne's empire ultimately collapsed. The Byzantine political methods that he imported failed to work amid the highly complex structures of the West.

What would have happened if the Muslims had prevailed at Poitiers and then marched to Paris? Assuming they imposed their social system on the Franks' realm rather than looting and moving on, the results might well have been a victory for civilization. But it would have been civilization of a highly autocratic type. Detaching itself from the Mediterranean turned out to be the best thing European society could do, because it ended up charting a different course. Lewis is right to be outraged by the sort of Eurocentric arrogance that leads to denigration of the Muslim world's legitimate cultural achievements. But an equal and opposite Islamocentrism is no less absurd. Whereas his goal is to heal the breach between Islam and the West, the real task is to come up with a revivified Enlightenment frame of reference that renders the entire split irrelevant.


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See more stories tagged with: divided by faith: religio, 570-1215

Daniel Lazare is the author of, most recently, The Velvet Coup: The Constitution, the Supreme Court, and the Decline of American Democracy (Verso).He is currently at work on a book about the politics of Christianity, Judaism and Islam for Pantheon.

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Alas!
Posted by: talkville on Mar 4, 2008 4:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In these aging moments of my life-cycle, I begin to acquire a certain kind of understanding of a mood, an ambience that beset the late 19th century -- Miguel de Unamuno described this as 'a tragic sense of life', Nietzsche's "Birth of Tragedy" and general labors addressed the same issues among others. Then there was Schopenhauer. A certain 'malaise' descending and permeating Europe - and beyond (the eternally 'optimistic' USA felt its winds, but brushed it off in with a touch of bravura and entertained maybe a bit of simulacra) -- this is the NEW world!! Of course, merely 400 years old, our society is but a kid in these developmental things.

The article points out what should be obvious: it's very, very old and it's very very inevitably still here. Fear-full humans have an urge for Absolute Truth, Un-conditioned Truth, something to depend and rely on in un-certain and relative times. But there are many societies on this planet, and among those religions which claim to hold such a Truth there are some who would Convert ALL humans everywhere to it -- evangelical ones. So we have large aggregations of peoples, each claiming an exclusive and unconditional claim to The Truth. And when more than one Absolute Truth is claimed, those who would impose it by means of 'conversion' when they are met with resistance must of course resort to OTHER means of imposing it, it needs Soldiers and Conquerors.

So what else is to be expected from aggressions of contending evangelical and universalizing claims? And unlike Europe, which has a much more cautious and LEARNED experience with these things, now it is OUR turn (suitably mixed in with 'globalization' rhetorics since, of course, "the Business of America is Business".

Faith, by definition, is tautologic and is directed to a not-human realm (that world of Absolutes and un-conditioned and un-historical 'things')

I can only hope these days that the USA finds that other dimension of freedom (one not really emphasized too much by the business-men and -women of these days): Responsibility. Alternately, we've got the weapons, the technology and the know-how to universalize and convert all of us humans to that realm of the Not-Human. Now that would be Absolute Peace, no? I can only say Courage! not Fear!

We are not meant to develop into gods; a more worthwhile task would be to develop into fuller, more dignified, more just, more equitable human beings, away from our animality and always towards our humanity, to make our species worthy of survival here, on this imperfect, fallible, flesh-and-blood planet we inhabit.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Alas! Alas! Alas! Posted by: wawa
» I have a bad habit... Posted by: sanddollar
» RE: I have a bad habit... Posted by: dwaln
» RE: I have a bad habit... Posted by: sanddollar
» RE: I have a bad habit... Posted by: talkville
Religion's no mystery, it's just another illness
Posted by: Moonray on Mar 4, 2008 4:44 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We now have the knowledge to label religion for what is is -- a mental disorder arising from anxiety and abetted by tribalistic tendencies. The ubiquitous nature of this disorder -- it's everywhere, especially where anxiety is intense -- confirms that it's a psychological problem.

Simply put, believing in entities for which no supporting evidence exists is not healthy on many levels. It can lead anywhere, can justify any human behavior, no matter how destructive.

Religion has remained largely immune from serious criticism merely because it has enormous power to intimidate. Politicians -- even sensible ones -- must genuflect to the supersition most prevalent in their communities. Religious leaders have huge amounts of money at their disposal.

It's all very sad, another confirmation that humankind has a long way to go on the road to becoming a rational creature. And because of religious strife -- and the proliferation of nuclear weapons -- it's very likely that journey will end prematurely in the next few decades.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Good article, bad alternet.
Posted by: izzyK on Mar 4, 2008 4:50 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I read this article in the nation a few days ago, I liked it. Lazare stated the obvious about religion and characterized the debate well, i thought.

What I have a problem with is Alternet giving the articles here completely misleading and sensationalist titles. "will the clash of faiths go on forever?" is a ridiculous title that has nothing to do with what the author, Lazare says.

One can infer from the beginning that his answer would be definitively NO, because that's not a question he poses in the article. The question he poses is whether its better for modern civilization to take 1) a militantly secular, atheistic stance to religion, publicly attacking it, as it were.

or 2) whether religous tolerance is a better deal because of either
a)history has shown the effectiveness of secularization throughout the past has been moot.
b) history has shown that certain religions can confer substantial benefits

He finds (2) to be wanting and (1) to be necessary in a world dominated by religous war and suffering caused by fealty to religous beliefs.

I would not be filling up so much space were this not the second time alternet has done screwed up a title. The last Lazare article on here, you may recall, "Among the Disbelievers" got the ridiculous title from alternet of "Why doe an Atheist Get out of Bed in the Morning?". This question was never asked in the article, because it's a stupid question. Rather argue with points in the article, however, most readers just came up with snarky answers to the FAKE title such as : "I turn off my alarm clock, i go to work" adding (unjustly) something to the effect of, "this author is stupid for asking that". Which he didn't.

This article isn't likely to get nearly as much flack, in fact, i expect the responses to be rather tepid. It is just a book re view with some zingers like 'religion should be subordinated to the needs of modern society' thrown in. But the problem with these completely unfitting headline titles needs to be fixed.

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» Misleading title Posted by: sanddollar
» RE: Good article, bad alternet. Posted by: ArtemInox
how we do it: Spiritual Evolution Revolution
Posted by: wawa on Mar 4, 2008 5:25 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It has been said that evolution is being held up by fundamental religiosity which runs through all faith paths and is fueled by fear of 'the other' and arrogance.

According to the 1987 classic, "The Different Drum: Community Making and Peace," Dr. Scott Peck defines the spiritual life as fluid and that one may pass back and forth repeatedly through any of the four-probably more-stages of the soul.

Stage one upon this journey -that begins from within-is essentially our infancy in the spiritual life. Stage one people may claim to love others, but their behavior reflects they love their own pleasure, money, power, prestige, and security above any other. For stage one people, it really is all about them.


Stage two souls seek to "let their light shine" and will live virtuous lives and do many good works. They also can be judgmental of others, self-righteous, rigid of thought, cold of heart, legalistic concrete literal thinkers and may even be guilty of a lukewarm faith.

Stage two souls have not yet been set fully free and prefer the security of a higher human authority than themselves for guidance. They submit to institutions, scripture, dogma, ritual, ministers, or gurus.

Stage three souls have not just fearlessly awoken, they have evolved! This evolution has led them to the realization of what Christ was really talking about in the Sermon of the Mount AKA: The Beatitudes which sound like crazy promises, but are all about waking people up to The Divine.

A stage three soul may well reject Christ as God, but often agree with the philosophy of Jesus, which Thomas Jefferson laid out when he weeded out the miracle stories from the gospels and clarified the teachings and ethics of Christ in: THE LIFE AND MORALS of JESUS of NAZARETH

Stage three souls often become activists for social justice and reform and the increasing wave of humanitarian secularism verses the bondage of religious dogma just may be the way to change the world as we now know it.

Then there is Stage four-and maybe more...

Excerpted from the 3rd in WAWA's
A GREATER AWAKENING series:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/

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» RE: arteminox Posted by: Spot
oxheadone
Posted by: oxheadone on Mar 4, 2008 5:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All human societies, no matter how primitive or advanced, seem to have something resembling 'religion'. While a recent governor of a midwest state said that religion was for the feeble-minded, and many intellectuals seem to agree, the human need to believe something beyond what can be known and demonstrated appears to be very strong. Basically. man has created 'God', judging by the greeks, in his own immage, but more perfect. The harm that has troubled people as a result of religion is very great, but this seems to be a matter of the institutions set up in the name of religion. Our current religious conflicts also involve the invention of the concept of a single god - if there is really only one god, then those who address the one god differently from one's own view must be very seriously at error and are insulting the one god. Religion was far less harmful in the time of Alexander the Great, who could go along paying respect to all the religions of the people he conquered. Perhaps one of the solutions for our religious problems would be to encourage a movement away from monotheism. Also, it might be helpful if Christians recognized that Islam is not a belief in the sense of believing that one finds salvation in Christ, but a total way of life that allows for little toleration. In our modern world where it is easy for a few extremists to do vast harm, it might be time for the leaders of all organized religions to get together and define proper behavior for all who wish to be regarded as true believers. This might save many people and also save the religions concerned.

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» RE: oxheadone Posted by: wawa
» RE: oxheadone Posted by: Spot
» RE: oxheadone Posted by: Spot
WILL IT GO ONE FOREVER?
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Mar 4, 2008 7:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It has so far. ANNA

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» RE: WILL IT GO ONE FOREVER? Posted by: willymack
» RE: WILL IT GO ONE FOREVER? Posted by: donl51
» Nothing is forever... Posted by: Gungneir
» RE: WILL IT GO ONE FOREVER? Posted by: Doggycuny
Pre-separation of church and state is for the nostalgic.
Posted by: Sojourner on Mar 4, 2008 7:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The implementation of separation of church and state continues. However, that's only about institutional or organized religion. There's another side to that story.

Yes, our encounter with theocrats abroad and here in the US shows that it is still possible to claim the authority of religion to kill or injure others for their own good. That's what will never change. But don't blame it on religion.

Europe, so I hear, employs organized religion only for rites of passage--births, marriage, death, etc. A recent Pew study shows even Bible Belt America slowly moving in that direction--more people identifying themselves as "unaffiliated." If that coordinates with a higher quality of life, it escapes me.

But we have an ethos where the marketplace of ideas grows. Thank goodness. Religion that relies on a royalist vocabulary, on superstition and on authoritarianism belongs with the ages that thought we were the center of the universe. It has taken us a long time to come to terms with the changes. For us the sun still "rises" and "sets." Is it any surprise then that, for many, angels and devils, good and evil spirits still lurk in the shadows?

We will have religion so long as we keep asking Leibniz's question, "Why is there something rather than nothing, since nothing would have been easier." I guess I'm religious because I am interested in some of the answers to that.

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Worry not. Angel Bush is here.
Posted by: Doggycuny on Mar 4, 2008 7:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My Republican friends told me that it says in the Bible that God will send an angel around 2004-2008 to save the world from Muslims. My Republican friends said that Bush is that angel and that he will win the war of Good vs Evil. So don't worry about the ongoing fights around the world, Bush has a plan in place, with the help of God, that will fix everything up nice and that pretty soon the Good Christians of the world will be dancing and singing on our way to Jerusalem to kick out the Muslims and the Jews. Well, maybe the Jews can stay. Can't remember if we are letting the Jews stay or not, but we are definately kicking out the Muslims.

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People need an imaginery friend
Posted by: leemiller38 on Mar 4, 2008 7:53 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People are their own worst enemy. Perhaps that is the reason for the need for an imaginary friend who will make everything OK in a crazy world. A world where greedy elites promote and fund (with our money) so much that is morally wrong and at cross purposes to our achievement of a sustainable rational society. There is no supernatural being to pull our chestnuts out of the fire. We are all alone in this no matter what people desire to imagine and we appear to be headed for a population crash on a degraded planet. Expect no imaginary friend to the rescue.

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It never ceases to amaze...
Posted by: Rishy on Mar 4, 2008 8:12 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...me that the rabid anti religion cult has co-opted the tactics of that which they profess so loudly to hate and be so very superior to.

Shaming, repudiation, ad hominem attacks--how original of you.

This for instance: "To attribute qualities to mundane objects and forces that are beyond the scope of physical sciences is foolish."

If one were to follow this "logic" to its full (and faulty) conclusion one would never expand the scope of physical science. I wonder if the author of that screed has any concept of how germ theory was developed (or the resistance to it from the medical community of the time--WHAT?!? You believe disease is caused by things you can’t see???? You're "foolish"!)

*sigh!* I am so very weary of the self proclaimed intelligentsia using religion or the lack thereof as the litmus test for their little "we're better than you" club. They pursue the thing so....well....religiously.

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» RE: It never ceases to amaze... Posted by: factbased
» RE: It never ceases to amaze... Posted by: factbased
» Question for fact-based Posted by: sanddollar
» RE: Question for fact-based Posted by: sanddollar
» RE: Question for fact-based Posted by: factbased
» RE: Question for fact-based Posted by: sanddollar
» RE: Question for fact-based Posted by: factbased
» Thanx Spot and factbased Posted by: sanddollar
Religious thinking is becoming more popular than ever
Posted by: opmoc on Mar 4, 2008 8:44 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most people now take almost everything they "know" on faith. Its a case of mass indoctrination from your TV screen and your Newspaper to dumb you down with useless crap and to stop you from thinking logically.

Science is devalued and given an even lower social rating than astrology.

Western society is becoming zombiefied. Whilst this isn't being achieved by religion as such - its is being done by same psychological techniques as used in religious indoctrination.

ON the subject of religion I would recommend the comments of Pat Condell

Pat Condell

Whilst I personally reject all religion, I still manage to have a spiritual awareness that some might interpret as a belief in a kind of God. I however, think it is far more likely to be a kind of mental illness.

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Religion is a mental illness
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Mar 4, 2008 9:15 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Religion began when the first scoundrel met the first fool."
~Voltaire

Voltaire renounced religion; he believed in the separation of church and state and in religious freedom.

A firm believer in the rationality of mankind, Voltaire once claimed that "One hundred years from my day there will not be a Bible in the earth except one that is looked upon by an antiquarian curiosity seeker."

Boy was he wrong on that account! We could only wish this mental illness would go away, but it is a much to lucrative business.

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» RE: eligion is a mental illness Posted by: Granny Annie
» Not Necessarily Posted by: Spot
dipconsult
Posted by: dipconsult on Mar 4, 2008 9:21 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, religion has led to much awfulness, but atheism may well have won the Guiness Book of Records entry for most mayhem and murder. A. Hitler, J. Stalin and Tojo in my lifetime slaughtered or led to the slaughter between them of hundreds of millions in the name of their -isms. Nothing new except the scale - remember Ghengis Khan?

It isn't religion or atheism - it's humanity that's the problem. When I came out of British Movietone News newsreel in April 1945 showing the liberation of Belsen, I remarked to my friend, another schoolboy, that the Germans were utterly disgusting. He replied "not just the Germans - all of us are capable of the same. It just depends on the circumstances".

Maybe Evil has a "wavelength" very close to the "wavelength" of God, and a much stronger signal which is easier and more entertaining to listen to. So when a lot of believers pray and think they are in contact with God, they are in fact in touch with the 'Evil One'.

If atheists, agnostics, and all religious people could just agree on one simple proposition - that, whatever religion or none, we all should strive each day only to do good, that might be a common point of departure.

But then you have the state (our state whichever it is) not individuals, making us kill eachother!

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» It's all about faith Posted by: factbased
» RE: dudelette Posted by: Spot
I had a revelation...
Posted by: Bbear41 on Mar 4, 2008 10:39 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...While contemplating religion the other day. It was, "The only commandment that matters is 'Be good to each other.'

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» RE: I had a revelation... Posted by: willymack
A Synopsis
Posted by: LeeAnnG on Mar 4, 2008 10:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Someone sent this to me, so I can't take credit. Having grown up going to an evangelical church with my grandparents, I found this synopsis to be right on the money.

"Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telephatically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree."

If I knew more about Islam, it might be possible to do the same kind of thing with it. Most religions can probably be reduced to this kind of absurdity. It's all made up to help people explain the unexplainable, reduce the fear of death and the unknown, and (the best reason) to help us find ways to live better lives.

Often this last does not work, and religions become forces of destruction, repression, and violence. And when you look at any religious dogma, most of it really and truly is pretty farfetched.

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» RE: A Synopsis Posted by: Gungneir
» RE: A Synopsis Posted by: Spot
» RE: A Synopsis Posted by: Gungneir
» Of course! Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Of course! Posted by: Spot
Ahhh...the wonders of FAITH
Posted by: zooeyhall on Mar 4, 2008 1:21 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You just gotta have FAITH!

And that's the nature of religion. You cannot be secure in your FAITH knowing there are others out there who believe their FAITH is "the" FAITH.

So you can never feel secure in your religion until you have exterminated, to the last and least, all opposing faiths.

And--thanks to FAITH--before long you are burning witches at the stake and crashing jet liners into skyscrapers.

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» hate to bust your bubble... Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» Nope Posted by: factbased
The clash will always continue
Posted by: jchernic on Mar 4, 2008 3:19 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's keep it simple. Religions or faiths, whatever name you use, are political entities. And as such, they each have their own agendas and ideologies, all of which they use to control, or attempt to control, whatever secular political bodies exist. This was true for as long as man was somewhat organized and will be true for as long as organized religions or faiths exist.

So the clash will continue - but not for the good of mankind. Need current examples? Just read today's news stories (Holland, our primary elections, the Mid-East, et al.)

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The worlds new disease: religion. wait til big pharma. gets ahold of this one.
Posted by: yale on Mar 4, 2008 5:48 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Until now I didnt think big pharma. could ever contribute anything worth while to our nation, or, for the world for that matter. But here it is! a cure for the most infectious disease: religion. When they find out just how many of us are sick, the dollar signs will be doing a meltdown on their, wheres our next cool billion gonna come from meter. But as we all know, big pharma. rarely comes up with any cures, they still might be capable of finding a way to make all the side affects go away. Wow, a world free of religious repercussions, ya know, things are starting to look up.

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I say we should get all religious zealots and....
Posted by: rhinojos on Mar 4, 2008 5:58 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
put them in a place that nobody uses, some desert somewhere, and let them fight it out. Then we kill the remaining "winners."

Sometimes I think thats the only way we can get rid of of such delusional people.

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sorry, but "secularism" (aka "secular humanism"; aka "humanism")
Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Mar 4, 2008 8:02 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is just ANOTHER religion...(i know from whence i speak, i have been a member of: buddhism, presbyterianism, mormanism & other non-denominational "christians" as well as humanism - to me each of these groups (except the buddhists)were ALL holier than thou "i'm right and they are wrong" HATE-filled groups - each group espoused love and understanding for all - but NONE (including the 'seculars') were actually able to DO it.


if it weren't for religion we stupid humans would find other things to hate and kill each other over - you know, like tennis shoes and football teams.

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Fear Doubt Uncertainty and more FEAR
Posted by: ArtemInox on Mar 4, 2008 9:26 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Really.....That is what it comes down to. Most people just cant deal with the fact that we don't know what we are doing here, that all of it may not matter, that we may or may not exist in some form after death, that everything we see happening around us could be meaningless, pointless. That regardless of how many new toys and technologies the species has, we are, as a species, still just animals barely out of the stone age, stil in the dark ages, and headed for who knows what.

For years I have known all religion is bullshit born of fear and uncertainty, and deciding that uncertainty is preferable to self-delusion, do not waste my time with it. Yet some times, I think it must be nice to be able to believe in something greater than us that is keeping track of things. Maybe there is. I dont KNOW. Neither does any one else. When the species is willing to accept this, there will be no need for religion. Probably not going to happen anytime soon, so on it will go.

http://www.addictedtoaggravation.com/

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dirt guy
Posted by: dwaln on Mar 4, 2008 9:36 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Still, a man he hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." There are many reasons to explore when considering why any of us want to believe anything. Our conflict of interest with both Truth and Complexity, gets back to the dilemma that our self interest is a mix of physical, social, mental, psychological, and ideological concerns.

What is really at issue is that our species has a tremendous ability to fool our selves about all kinds of things. We do it quite simply by being selective about what we focus on and what we overlook. I call it self brain-stuffing.

Brain stuffing works to give us enough certitude to face the day. It gives us the confidence to support our favorite candidate etc..

It is not just Religion, it is the process of how we fortify any of our positions that further some mix of our self interest that ends up costing someone else.

Plenty of room for improvement all around.

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religions at war
Posted by: donl51 on Mar 5, 2008 12:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Or thats how I see it,earlier this evening I was listening to Chris Hitchens telling that there are about 15-16% full athiests in this country,I'm 63 been an athiest since about 18-20 years old in the service which really had nothing to do w/my''droping out'' so to speak,more a combination of unanswerable questions,lots of reading,common sense and inteligence did it for me,plus,I guess I did'nt feel that insecure and needy,too me god,religion, whichevers is a cult of sorts no different than the ancients worshipping the sun, which kinda makes more sence, warmth, light,life...anyway the way I also feel is that most''pious''heavy-duty church goers go because its expected, makes you part of the community, makes you look good ,some really do believe and thats good for them! whatever you feel you need for your head!, beats most drugs 'cept pot,but thats another story,lot more non-believers over in Europe, Asia has Budhism,which is a way of life,no magical gods and all that!I was born into a basic catholic family,basic meaning our parents smart and wonderfull as they were gave us enough to start out with, and as we grew make our own choices,turns out we're of differing stages of non-beleivers,used to love hearing about the gangsters who goes out robs,kills 59 people goes to see their priest, lies,..a few words in latin,big donation in the sunday basket,they're all bsst of pals,then you've a nut case that talks to god and god's going to help us while accross the pond gods going to supply 72 virgins so that bunch can kill the infidels for their god,and back here again ,one is better than the other and everyone is doing a lot of killing,!Popes are hypocrits,helped the nazis,,they've ton's of money ,their own intelligence network and police,and to heip the needy they get other needy to shell what little they have to help others!...did those puritans really have to land on our shores? a sign pointing straight south would have been nice!

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Religion is just a bit of fun!
Posted by: Doggycuny on Mar 5, 2008 7:22 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't think people should take religion so seriously. I am a practising Christain/Muslim but also think some of the Hindu ideas are fun - I like the guy with the elephant head, he's cool looking. Both the bible and koran have some jibberish in them, but generally they're quite fun to read - I just take the bits I like from both books. I am gonna read some Buddist stuff and then write my own bible, kinda like what Joseph Smith did when he invented the Mormans - I just read a few holy books and then write my own taking stuff from all of them. (But I'll make sure my grammar and spelling are accurate, unlike Smith, so at least SOME people will think its divine - ha ha ha !)

And I'll leave out the depressing stories that the bible and koran have. There's no point in having them. Kids don't like those depressing stories and if you want your religion to spread you gotta attract the kids at a young age. I will probably add some stories about Harry Potter, or Lord of the Rings, something with some wizards and monsters and stuff.

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John L.
Posted by: JOHN L. on Mar 5, 2008 9:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ALL these crackpots-err, ''religeons'' preach love, peace, justice, etc. All these-(your choice)-practice hate and murder, slavery of one sort or another, class separation, etc, all that "civilization" claims to oppose.

Just as it is only workers who produce, not bankers or their politicians; it is only individuals who do "good works", not religions or their magics.

It is self evident.
~Old74

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