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Dem Debate No Game-Changer

By Ari Berman, TheNation.com. Posted February 27, 2008.


No one won. No one lost. And Clinton needed more than a tie to change the course of this race.

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Based on the mega-hype surrounding tonight's Democratic debate in Cleveland, Hillary Clinton needed a soaring victory to resurrect her ailing candidacy. Barack Obama, after a slew of victories in February, just needed to play for a tie.


Both candidates held their own, but there was no defining moment, breakout line or critical game-changer. So, in that sense, Obama won. Clinton will need more than a debate performance between now and March 4 to change the nature of this race.


Tonight was the night when it became obvious just how long this contests has gone on. These candidates have been out on the road for over a year, preparing to run for even longer, and it shows. At the beginning of the debate, Clinton looked visibly irritated and frustrated, making a lame joke about the media's infatuation with Obama. "Maybe we should ask Barack if he's comfortable and needs another pillow," Clinton cracked. That went over about as well as the "Change you can Xerox" line.


The big loser of the night was undoubtedly Tim Russert, whose inane gotcha questioning of both candidates marked a new low for the veteran broadcaster. Debates, especially what could be the final one between Clinton and Obama, should not become stand-ins for Meet the Press. Most voters don't care that Louis Farrakhan endorsed Obama, or when Clinton releases her tax returns, or whether the candidates know the name of Vladmir Putin's hand-picked "successor" in Russia (for the record, his name's Dmitry Medvedev).



Voters would like to know about universal healthcare, but they don't want the candidates to spend sixteen minutes arguing about the intricacies of healthcare mandates. They care less about what a politician said about NAFTA over a decade ago than what they're going to do about current and future trade deals now. Most Democrats like both Clinton and Obama. It remains a mystery why it's so hard for members of the press to figure that out.


There were a few revealing moments. Clinton said she wished she could take back her vote for the war in Iraq. If she'd have bucked her political strategists and foreign policy advisers and voted against the Senate's resolution, she'd probably be the Democratic nominee right now. Obama said he was wrong to stand silent as the Senate provided life support to a vegetating Terri Schiavo.


Obama gives crisper answers than he did at the outset of this campaign. He's better at speaking in soundbites and slapping away smears. His answers about foreign policy proved that, despite what Senator Clinton has said about him, he's ready to take on John McCain and become Commander-In-Chief.


Clinton is a knowledgeable and able debater, but even in comfortable settings, she seems to be swimming against the tide. Her campaign has begun blaming the media for poisoning the minds of the millions of Democratic voters who have expressed a preference for Obama. But she entered the race as the presumptive nominee and retained the aura of "inevitability" for the better part of the campaign. So if Clinton ran as the frontrunner, why didn't her campaign expect to be treated as one?


These debates increasingly tell us less and less. Perhaps it's a good thing that tonight's may be the last one for quite some time.

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Ari Berman is a contributing writer for The Nation and a Ralph Shikes Fellow at the Public Concern Foundation. He's currently based in D.C.

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View:
Terrorist
Posted by: HeKnew on Feb 27, 2008 1:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Direct Primaries!

Direct Elections!

Direct Democracy!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

The Super Bowl of our Lives!
Posted by: williameon on Feb 27, 2008 3:50 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fundamental change in the system must come from the People.
As long as special interests control our Government we will live in a Cor’pirate’ Dictatorship.
The One/Two party system is flawed at best.
We need more and deserve more than this:
Elephant and Donkey Show.
Change must come from with-out.
Only after we become more Peaceful, Neighborly, Cooperative, Patient and Loving, will our government be.
As long as we expect and accept less: the longer things will stay the same.
We need a more inclusive, open, accountable Government with redefined Goals, Ideals and Purpose.
A Government for and by the People instead of for and by The Corporations.

When the Faux Media controls the questions they frame the debate.
For the benefit of their benefactor.
The Candidates attack each other with little blow back going in direction of The Republican Party.
The Reptilians whose message is so dated and obsolete.
That they are now using Democratic talking points.
We all know that!
We must go further.
The Democrats never lost the last two elections.
They stole them.
The question is:
Will we let it happen again?
What is Rovian and his minions working on right now?
Stealing the 2008 election.
As long as he delivers,
We loose.

This is the real SUPER BOWL.

The Super Bowl of our lives.

It’s overtime!

No umpires!
No excuses.
and
No explanations.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: The Super Bowl of our Lives! Posted by: carbon-based
these candidates show how important it is for the people to take charge of government
Posted by: Suzon on Feb 27, 2008 4:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One way to put the feet of our elected "representatives" to the fire is to ask compliant Democrats in Congress this question: On what authority did you base your decision refuse to call for the impeachment of George Bush and Dick Cheney?

They should have relied upon some accepted legal or moral principle and should be able to cite it for you. A personal belief is not authoratative.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» what a great question Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: Poor question Posted by: EncinoM
» you know what was meant Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: you know what was meant Posted by: EncinoM
james d granata
Posted by: seilnotnilc on Feb 27, 2008 5:23 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have great respect for the political accumen reflected in the excellent writings of tyro Ari Berman. yet last I checked he is not an interviewer which requires a different set of skills, a great deal more spontaneity and a level of iteraction not relevant to editorializing. therefore, His naming Tim Russert the loser of last nights debate, when he can't as yet carry Mr. Russert's jockstrap, is a tad arrogant.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: james d granata Posted by: Knot_Rich
» RE: james d granata Posted by: Quannah
» RE: james d granata Posted by: seilnotnilc
My take
Posted by: rickiey on Feb 27, 2008 6:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Maybe we should ask Barack if he's comfortable and needs another pillow," Clinton cracked.

She came off REALLY whiny there to me. I was very dissapointed in that.

They care less about what a politician said about NAFTA over a decade ago

Speak for yourself. Clinton's praise of NAFTA is a much more recent contribution, and quite frankly, I care how my President is going to deal with trade inbalances and the economy. Clinton was a huge NAFTA proponent, both before and after, and it has been devastating to America. She is rightfully feeling the criticism of it, because NAFTA is in no small part, part of HER legacy as well.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: My take Posted by: Knot_Rich
The debates seem petty and shallow
Posted by: LeeAnnG on Feb 27, 2008 6:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've only watched parts of the debates, but from what I have seen, they mostly consist of nitpicking non-questions and non-answers. There is a definite lack of real passion or depth, and nothing I've seen quite addresses any real issues.

Clinton, in particular, seems prone to focus on silly, petty attacks, like her pressing Obama to "reject" rather than "refute" Farrakhan's support. At this point, it seems unimportant whether or not Obama "stood by and allowed the Terry Shiavo" incident to occur. It was a ridiculous exercise in futility when it happened, and it's irrelevant now. However, Clinton's support of NAFTA, or lack thereof, is still very important.

Perhaps accusing her of supporting it before she stopped supporting it might not be the best approach. I'd rather see the candidates ask each other the questions concerning this kind of thing than accuse and defend. For example, Obama might have asked Clinton if she was in favor of NAFTA when Bill Clinton was in the White House rather than stating that she was. He could have also asked her what her stand on it is now. (As I said, I didn't watch the entire debate, so this might have happened and I just didn't see it. However, it doesn't seem to be the way either candidate does things.)

I think the word I'd use to best describe the debates in general is "insipid." As great an orator as Obama is, he is not very inspiring during the debates. Maybe an entirely different format is needed, but in spite of the opposition to his newly announced presidency, Ralph Nader managed to be lucid, passionate, courageous, and informative in his interview with Tim Russert on Meet the Press this weekend. During this session, the "right" questions were not necessarily asked, but Nader simply injected the right comments and answers anyway. Too bad he isn't part of the debates; he might be able to strike the missing spark. He spoke of the need for true universal health care, the disparity between the very wealthy and everyone else, the vast sums being wasted every day in Iraq, the hold corporations have over virtually every aspect of our lives, and a variety of other subjects that actually affect us. Kucinich did the same, and he was shut out of the debates, which was a travesty.

On one point I disagree with Mr. Berman. He says that most Democrats like both candidates. That may be true in some places, but most of the people I talk to kind of don't really like either candidate and see both of them as the lesser of two evils against MCain or any Republican. That's not a good situation any way you look at it.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: I agree itz Posted by: Sissy
Dear Hillary, more crude attacks, please!
Posted by: cognitorex on Feb 27, 2008 7:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bash bash Obama now, see what might stick,
Surviving, thriving, he's way more the November pick.

For news cycles can be a friend,
Particularly as and when they end.

--cognitorex--

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Hillary down for the count!
Posted by: carbon-based on Feb 27, 2008 8:00 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, the dems are doing a great job of beating each other to death. amazing how they complained last election about the GOP dirty tricks - who would have known that they were taking notes - or maybe the GOP stole the Dems play book!

""Most voters don't care that Louis Farrakhan endorsed Obama"..--- you're kidding right! One of the most racist people in the country and no one cares???..you sure bet they care..so does Obama as he tried to distance himself from the endorsement! especially after his wife is seeming to be a bit racist herself!

"or when Clinton releases her tax returns" - wouldn't you like to know which Arab country has her in their pocket, or who Clinton is lobbying for (Free jet trips etc..)

""or whether the candidates know the name of Vladmir Putin's hand-picked "successor"."" - It sure would be nice to know they have an idea of who's who.

Despite the debate and how they were more concerned about bashing each other than "what are they going to do for "me" - Obama is on a role and in my opinion cannot be stopped! Hillary took a "right cross" and is out!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Mrs.Obama, racist? Posted by: jmooney
» RE: Mrs.Obama, racist? Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Mrs.Obama, racist? Posted by: Quannah
» RE: Mrs.Obama, racist? Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: Hillary down for the count! Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Hearing problem? Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Hearing problem? Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: As usual. Posted by: Longdream
willys cold nose
Posted by: collins101 on Feb 27, 2008 9:00 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
obama has been getting a free pass thru out this campaign and Hillary has been dumped upon constantly. repubs are going to vote for obama in texas/ohio because they know Hillary can beat McCain.
Hillary is smarter and would do much better in a debate w/McCain. so people you go on and vote for Barack(hope/change/swoon/faint) Obama. you'll get McCain with the Bush policies that will drive this country further down the toilet. if obama was a white man he wouldn't have a chance against Hillary.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: willys cold nose Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: willys cold nose Posted by: jmooney
» RE: willys cold nose Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: IF OBAMA WERE A WHITE WOMAN, Posted by: foreverhope
willys cold nose
Posted by: collins101 on Feb 27, 2008 9:00 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
obama has been getting a free pass thru out this campaign and Hillary has been dumped upon constantly. repubs are going to vote for obama in texas/ohio because they know Hillary can beat McCain.
Hillary is smarter and would do much better in a debate w/McCain. so people you go on and vote for Barack(hope/change/swoon/faint) Obama. you'll get McCain with the Bush policies that will drive this country further down the toilet. if obama was a white man he wouldn't have a chance against Hillary.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

willys cold nose
Posted by: collins101 on Feb 27, 2008 9:00 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
obama has been getting a free pass thru out this campaign and Hillary has been dumped upon constantly. repubs are going to vote for obama in texas/ohio because they know Hillary can beat McCain.
Hillary is smarter and would do much better in a debate w/McCain. so people you go on and vote for Barack(hope/change/swoon/faint) Obama. you'll get McCain with the Bush policies that will drive this country further down the toilet. if obama was a white man he wouldn't have a chance against Hillary.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Smarter? Posted by: jmooney
» RE: Smarter? Posted by: seilnotnilc
» RE: willys cold nose Posted by: carbon-based
willys cold nose
Posted by: collins101 on Feb 27, 2008 9:00 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
obama has been getting a free pass thru out this campaign and Hillary has been dumped upon constantly. repubs are going to vote for obama in texas/ohio because they know Hillary can beat McCain.
Hillary is smarter and would do much better in a debate w/McCain. so people you go on and vote for Barack(hope/change/swoon/faint) Obama. you'll get McCain with the Bush policies that will drive this country further down the toilet. if obama was a white man he wouldn't have a chance against Hillary.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: why all the posts Posted by: solrev
» RE: willys cold nose Posted by: seilnotnilc
Hillary looked rattled.....
Posted by: Voicedude on Feb 27, 2008 9:23 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
....and I don't mean in a 'there's no parity' kind of way. I mean in the living up to the 'hysterical females shouldn't be world leaders' kind of way. Sad for her to let that slip and get carried away like that.

She lived up to the stereotype, and I'll bet lost some of her supporters after that. Agree with her or not, her reaction seemed defensive and a bit unhinged.

....and Obama STILL hasn't said anything of any importance!!!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: maybe Posted by: solrev
» RE: Hillary looked rattled..... Posted by: foreverhope
» RE: Hope! Posted by: Longdream
» Longdream! Posted by: foreverhope
Barack and the Republicans
Posted by: anothername on Feb 27, 2008 11:19 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
On NPR's Morning Edition today (Feb. 27, 2008), I finally heard somebody pull something concrete from Barack Obama's Audicity of Hope, and reported it correctly. This is the first time I have heard any such thing in the year that Obama has been campaigning. The comment was that in the book Obama said he supports global trade with some worker protections. All other comments I have heard have implied that Obama does not support global trade agreements, writ large, or were just generic comments that Obama has wonderful books.

As for the Republican comment, I have observed many Republicans, and a few Democrats, take proof of a lie directly and, without batting an eyelash, switch to another lie or to a different argument. For months I have had the impression that Obama has learned this tactic.

One of the above posters reference hope/change/swoon/faint. I'm curious about that reference. During the Iowa caucuses, there seemed to be a pattern during Obama's speeches that three-quarters of the way through someone in the front of the crowd would faint or otherwise seem ill and Obama would ask if he/she were okay, without missing a beat in the rhythm of his speech. It happened often enough, with just the one person each time, and at the same time in the speech, that I have wondered if it were part of the show.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Wha?
Posted by: Quasar on Feb 27, 2008 11:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't think either B or C is saying anything new or more in depth than what most readers or interested spectators of this campaign already know: as if being a candidate gives them access to info that no one else is privy to - that they can then re-formulate (read: dumb down) for the rest of us. We know a lot about healthcare. We know a lot about Iraq. We know a lot about our schools. We know a lot about our crappy infrastructure. The information is out there. We live it. And we're pretty smart too. So what are we really asking for them to tell us? The fact of the matter is that universal healthcare will REQUIRE buy in from public and private entities across the board, including health insurance to succeed. To suggest otherwise is a lie; but it is the lie that we want to hear and that they now have to defend. Iraq? How can we leave? How can we stay? We won't do either and we will do both that's how.

In the end, there are only two reasons for the way things are the way they are: it is either because we do not have the politcal will to change them or because we are saitisfied with the way things are no matter what we say to the contrary.

Hope is not a plan but it is also not a lie. Hope can become will to power. But a plan alone - I don't care how detailed it is - is truly just another campaign platitude.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Ok, we know
Posted by: willymack on Feb 27, 2008 11:34 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What the "experts" said about the latest Democratic debate. What's more important, in my view, is what the people thought. They gave Obama a 70% to Hillary's 30%. The experts are far outnumbered by the voters, and Obama has confounded all their opinions and predictions so far. What worries me is the number of bubbleheaded fools who say they'll vote for mccain. This is really scary, and I hope Obama surprises us once again come election day.

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» RE: That's my score, too. Posted by: Longdream
So much for Mrs. Clinton's "Experience"
Posted by: keefus55 on Feb 27, 2008 12:19 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As for Mrs. Clinton's "I'm ready on day one" mantra, I find it ironic that she apparently didn't have enough "experience" to know when her "divide and conquer" campaign strategy simply wasn't working (after last night's debate, she apparently still doesn't).

She also apparently doesn't have enough "experience" to realize when her "no expense is too great" campaign managers were blowing through $130 Million in campaign money like drunken sailors. Nor did she have the mental wherewithal to fully grasp that she just might want to have a "Plan B" for use after Super Tuesday, just in case "Plan A" (her coronation) didn't work out exactly the way she'd planned it.

For someone who claims to have been "tested" and has lots of "experience", her actions to date with her (now sinking) campaign simply don't show it.

To the contrary, her nearly blind reliance on guru-delivered strategies, her arrogant insistence on following the same rhetorical line even when it obviously isn't working, her absolute inflexibility in adapting her strategy and tactics to her opposition, along with her blatantly apparent, utter inability to formulate new strategies or to improvise new and innovative tactics when her long-held pre-conceptions were found to be so obviously faulty, ALL bring to mind the failed leadership traits of the person who now occupies the office she so desperately covets:

President George W. Bush.

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Hillary's two attempts at humor betrayed her.
Posted by: garciamukamuka on Feb 27, 2008 12:22 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What did she think people who had not seen the Saturday Night Live skit would think of her [copied] joke? And if she didn't mind going first, why'd she bring it up?

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Thank God They're Done--I Hope
Posted by: JohnJlws on Feb 27, 2008 1:01 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've watched almost all the debates on both sides of this thing. So, in unison, everyone can say "get a life." The first debate I watched with the 37 Reagan wannabes jockeying for who would wear the "I'm the most like Reagan" hat made me think "the dems can run a gerbil." I haven't changed that opinion much, although McCain has credentials far above a gerbil. Not that I'd want him in the sequel, GW-2: Idiot and Idioter, as our president. I'm just sort of tired of blowing stuff up and that's what McCain offers (as does Clinton mostly, if you check out her rather scary advisors).

I am mildly (very mildly) disappointed, however, that Obama is focused on NAFTA, but I understand why--it's a flag burning issue that will help him get votes in Ohio and get elected and that's a good outcome. And, I'm an Obama supporter and with what I've read of the Clintons I'd struggle a little (a very little) if it came down to Clinton vs. McCain. I'd go with Clinton in the end as her election would be more historic than would electing someone who remembers things, from personal experience, like Teddy Roosevelt's charge (not really, but seriously McCain is more "seasoned," and sometimes senile, than most our grandparents).

NAFTA isn't the problem with the loss of jobs in the U.S. We are. The Japanese started producing better cars than our folks were imagining decades before anyone thought they could produce more than those little umbrellas that go in drinks (then the Taiwanese took over that industry, so the Japanese needed something else--they went with electronics and combustion engines--good call). And, most of us don't think twice about going into those suffocating big box stores because we can save a small fortune buying garbage from China, India, Brazil or Iran for that matter.

The preceding are just "we miss the point" examples of what's wrong with the debate of NAFTA. The Japanese (and others) graduate engineers and scientists and we graduate attorneys and "liberal arts" majors (and there's nothing wrong with the "liberal arts," but don't ask any of us to design a circuit board or evaluate the genome project, but would you like me to super-size that order?). And, we're great at being a consumer nation and we're better at finding the "best" deal than any other collective group of people in the world. And, yes, China just sticks us and sticks us to death with unfair trade policies.

So, let's quit debating NAFTA and start debating how we're going to deal with China's unfair trading policy, how we're going to tell the Saudis that we're not going to be held hostage to their oil or their rather peculiar way they have of treating their people, like women, and how we're going to deal with a whole host of other countries who basically are dumping their crap on the world market using essentially slave labor, zero safety and environmental (although we can't crow too loudly on this score) standards and watching in glee as we troop into the big box paradise and snarf up the latest and greatest "deal." "Look, at this great tool I got at the big box store, Bob. Only $39.95 and it will pick up a dime off a sheet of glass!" "Yep, they had a ton of em. Just a ton. C'mon, I'll drive you."

It's not illegal immigration, NAFTA, or any of those other make believe evils that are costing the U.S. its jobs. It's us, but to accept that fact means we also have to accept personal responsibility and rather than do that I'll get an attorney.

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Ms Cheryl Lynne Oropal
Posted by: cherylsass123 on Feb 27, 2008 7:20 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
to be honest, that f***ing jerk, russert , did screw things up for hillary, along with " princess katie" couric and all the rest of them. TOO BAD they did not do the same for old gazoo johnnie boy Mc Bush! and even though I am volunteering for the hillary campaign, if mr. obama [ whom, in many ways, is more of a MS. Obama [feminist] than most "straight" men tend to be! :)] gets the democrat nomination , I will surely vote for him! as a woman, I have to say this. anything but "JOHN MC COAT HANGER" as what women would be stupid enough to vote for john mc bush, an ol' conservative DOG whom often sleeps with so called "christian" FLEAS such as sam alito, judge roberts, and every pro-life pile of shit there is in this once great till "king george bush" the first and second, country, is his good friend and "advisor" on sexual/reproductive matters! and thanks , alternet, for the link to NARAL's site! now I may be able to pound some sense into my very own sister's head, whom already said she will vote for john mc same!

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» RE: Ms Cheryl Lynne Oropal Posted by: Longdream
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