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Run, Ralph, Run! (But I Won't Vote for You)

By Joshua Holland, AlterNet. Posted February 25, 2008.


Ralph's no spoiler, but this is not the time for third-party runs.
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In announcing another quixotic presidential bid on Meet the Press, Ralph Nader was his usual cogent self, asking, as he does, why so many in the "liberal intelligentsia" condemn him for discussing the important issues that the two major parties ignore.

Although the Democratic debates during this primary season are about a thousand times better than those of recent years, he was, as usual, right -- why the hell haven't the Democrats come up with a coherent position on trade, for example?

As he spoke, one could almost hear Democrats across the country pulling knives from their sheaths. Another Nader run, another opportunity for Democrats -- even progressive Dems -- to attack him, in the words of Michael Tomasky, "with lupine ferocity."

At the heart of that animalistic urge is the notion that Ralph Nader cost Al Gore the 2000 election and was responsible for placing Shrub in the White House, a revisionist history that's as ludicrous as it is pervasive within Democratic circles. The reality -- the hard data point that makes it a perfectly specious narrative -- is that Al Gore, had he immediately and forcefully demanded a recount of all the votes in the state of Florida, would have won and would probably be finishing up his second term right now. It was his decision -- one that Nader had nothing to do with -- to contest only a handful of counties that would ultimately cost him the presidency (and the United States so much more than that).

What's more, as Ralph said during his appearance on Meet the Press, Democrats are perfectly capable of analyzing a story with multiple variables, but when it comes to election 2000, they focus on just one. Even if Gore hadn't won the most votes in Florida -- according to any of seven standards the courts might have used -- even if we look at just the recounted counties that gave Bush that slim 500-vote lead, there were a dozen other factors that would have tipped the scales. Katherine Harris purged 50,000 (mostly black) eligible voters. Gore decided not to have Bubba Clinton campaign on his behalf, despite Clinton's 65 percent approval rating (which was the highest for a departing president since World War II). Pat Buchanan won little old gray-haired Jewish ladies' votes thanks to the infamous "butterfly ballot." I could go on -- the point is that looking at all of those factors and then blaming a citizen for exercising his right to run for elected office is both intellectually weak and absurd in principle.

Many Democrats, in their misplaced pique, also condemn Nader and his supporters in a profoundly bone-headed way -- they suggest, or at least imply, that it was somehow the duty of progressive-minded people to vote for the Democratic ticket because of the perfidy of the alternative.

The larger comparison is right -- there's a hell of a lot more than a dime's worth of difference between the Dems and the GOP at this point in history -- but the idea that people "owe" their vote to a candidate, even one who fails to fully represent their interests, is not only offensive, it's also counter-productive. The reason is simple: It's anathema to liberal ideology to walk in lock-step with a party. One can piss and moan all one wants about how conservatives are more "disciplined" (think about the idea of a party "disciplining" its members), but the reality is that liberals and progressives will always chafe at the idea of being told how to vote.

But here's the rub: While people don't owe a vote for any candidate, it is in the self-interest of liberals, moderates and even those few remaining "principled conservatives" out there to defeat the reactionaries who have controlled the GOP for the past couple of decades. Smart Democrats, if they're concerned about the impact of a Nader run (which, let's face it, will be minimal after eight years of Bush; Nader got 2.7 percent of the vote in 2000 and in 2004, after one Bush term, he got less than 0.4 percent), will stop bloviating about Nader's "spoiler effect" and start making that explicit appeal to progressives' self-interest.


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Joshua Holland is an AlterNet staff writer.

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Run, Ralph Run!
Posted by: ohb0b on Feb 25, 2008 1:32 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
About time someone else admits Nader didn't cause gore to "lose" the 200 election. If I recall, Gore actually won, but the election was stolen.

Democrats need a gadfly like Nader to remind them who they are supposed to be representing. Which Democratic candidate is campaigning on single payer health care, aggressive corporate crime prosecution, green energy, cutting the bloated military budget, or repealing Taft-Hartley?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Run, Ralph Run! Posted by: aouie01
» RE: semi-chuckle Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: un, Ralph Run! Posted by: carbon-based
» If Kuchinic who Ralph Posted by: SJ
No, Ralph.....please, no
Posted by: vox persona on Feb 25, 2008 1:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Having voted a third party/independent ticket all my life, I understand the value of the protest vote.....but this is more about ego than elections. Even though I wrote him in in 2000, my state didn't have him on the ballot, that was before the debacle in which a partisan 'Supreme' Court halted the counting of the votes to annoint the present Decider in Chief, leading ou present spiral into the Twilight Zone. But this is the time to prevent Mr. '100 years in Iraq' "Keating 5' lobbyist loving McCain from having control of the button, who thinks war is a natural state of being. Please, Ralph, have pity on America.....oh, the humanity!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» I like that Posted by: vox persona
» RE: I like that Posted by: Lauren
» RE: I like that Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: I like that Posted by: bornxeyed
» RE: I like that Posted by: Cooltruth
» RE: No, Ralph.....please, no Posted by: josephq
» RE: No, Ralph.....please, no Posted by: Cooltruth
» RE: Go Ralph, go! Posted by: Doubtom
» no replays please Posted by: Ripcord
You can't defeat the GOP by voting for those who accomodate their agenda
Posted by: Rune on Feb 25, 2008 1:33 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Voting out Republicans is fine and well, but replacing them with Democrats who share their agenda (as Clinton does to a substantial degree) or wish to "bring the country together" by moving more rightward than leftward (Obama's plan and promise) does little to correct the impact of George Bush pretty much getting his way regardless of which party held the majority in Congress.

This IS precisely the time to vote for a third party candidate. When the Democrats are poised to deliver a senator with a dubious record of experience and accomplishment or a senator with feel good appeal but very little strategic savvy backing his words, why waste a vote on their pick for the presidency? Quite simply, we cannot afford any more posturing or capitulation to the corporate overlords who set policy for Republicans and Democrats alike.

The problem is not that Ralph Nader is a third party candidate, the problem is that Ralph Nader is even less likely to be an effective executive than Clinton or Obama--which is pathetic. Nader deserves plenty of criticism for being nothing more than a capable critic himself. Let's not use his personal shortcomings to argue against the concept of a third party candidate at this critical hour, however. With the dismal choices presented thus far, a third party candidate is the best hope for the future of the U.S., however slight the odds of such a leader emerging between now and November.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Well said. Posted by: Artkansas
» Why vote? Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Why VOTE???? Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Well said. Posted by: SJ
» On the mark Posted by: wjfaust
Run, and help frame the agenda
Posted by: nochicagoboys on Feb 25, 2008 1:49 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr. Nader has previously called the Democratic Party “decayed", “too cautious and too indentured” to big corporations, “commercially rigged,” and “very good at electing very bad Republicans". The two major parties, he said, “are converging with more and more similarities towering over the dwindling real differences they’re willing to struggle over.”

From the New York Times article dated February 22nd, Mr. Nader announced his Sunday appearance on Meet The Press in an e-mail message to supporters of his exploratory committee, formed in January, encouraging them to watch and donate money to his effort. “Who will pick up these issues and put them back on the table?” the message asks, after listing causes like single-payer health care and impeaching President Bush -- causes that have been “pulled off the table by the corporatized political machines in this momentous election year.” Now, he's jumped into the race.

With his stinging anti-corporate rhetoric, Mr. Nader is perhaps the leading candidate for real change; real hope. However, given the potential ramifications of a McCain presidency on the parity of the Supreme Court, I will vote for the nominated Democrat, albeit with clothespin attached to my nose, under the following assumption: that my state is deemed a swing-state in this next election. Otherwise, my vote will be cast for Mr. Nader.

I hope others will make the same pledge.

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Third parties yes, Nader no.
Posted by: Osloboditelj on Feb 25, 2008 2:01 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have no intention of voting for a Democrat, and yet I can't support Nader. Not only is he clearly past his time, but he has actively done a lot to discredit himself in the past few years. When you claim to be a progressive champion committed to changing the electoral process, you probably shouldn't effectively disappear until the next time for you to run the same old campaign comes around.

More than that, though, I dislike Nader because he has in recent years harmed what movement there is toward a third party option. First of all, he has made "third party" synonymous with "Nader", which in turn is synonymous for either "joke" or "Republican-empowering spoiler", depending on who you ask (though the "spoiler" argument is, as said in this article, complete bullshit). Let's not forget, either, how he chose to run against the Green Party's actual nominee in 2004, and is likely to do so again, which will be yet another blow to the credibility of the people actually looking to present an alternative. So no, I can't support his run.

My vote is extremely likely to go to Cynthia McKinney, for what it's worth.

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» RE: Third parties yes, Nader no. Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Third parties yes, Nader no. Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Nader didn't disappear Posted by: B. Spoon
The Dems Asked For It
Posted by: BlackbirdHighway on Feb 25, 2008 2:11 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Dems asked for this:

* Didn't fight back when Bush & The Supremes stole the 2000 election

* Didn't fight back against the Repub election fraud in Ohio in 2004

* Went along with Bush getting us mired in a very costly war in Iraq.

* Didn't fight back against Bush's many impeachable offenses: lying. illegal wiretaps, torture, and much more.

* Didn't fight back against continued funding of the Iraq war.

* Didn't fight back against corporate tax breaks for oil companies. I already give Exxon enough money at the pump, they don't deserve my tax dollars too.

* Haven't fought for the tough changes needed to address global warming.

* Haven't fought for universal health care, just talk about it a lot while doing nothing.

For nearly eight years now, the Dems have just gone along with whatever Bush and the Repubs want. Under no circumstances can they claim that they have earned my vote.

I want to vote for the opposition, not the doormat party. If the Dems would just stand up and be the opposition, I would gladly vote for them.

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» well said! Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» RE: well said! Very Well Said!!!!!!!!!! Posted by: left_libertarian
» RE: The Dems Asked For It Posted by: topbrick
» RE: The Dems Asked For It Posted by: topbrick
» RE: I used to think like that ... Posted by: fringedweller
» No, Not Many People Do Have That Posted by: pdxstudent
» I couldn't agree more! nm Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale
» RE: The Dems Asked For It Posted by: liberalibrarian
» RE: The Dems Asked For It Posted by: amazingjim
» RE: The Dems Asked For It Posted by: MobileSucks
» RE: The Dems Asked For It Posted by: PopRox80
» RE: The Dems Asked For It Posted by: MobileSucks
Official Candidates Left Standing Are Fakes
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps on Feb 25, 2008 2:44 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Though he is a far and away superior to clear and present corporate stooges Hillary and Obama (to say nothing of mad Fascist McCain) Nader also has credibility issues.

Nowhere in his platform does Nader address practical steps to fundamentally transform a de facto corporate crime ruling class system to something approaching sanity.

That would (for example) include dismantling of an unconstitutional "Federal Reserve" Corp private bank fraud, lobbyist ejection from DC and some kind of trustworthy ombudsman oversight to reinstitute the Constitution with its Bill of Rights and its rule of law intact. (nixing corporate personhood is helpful but far from enough)

In other words, there are no real or lasting Nader steps to guarantee valid democracy in place of the Washington-MSM carny show imitation owned by corporate monopoly.

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Ralph
Posted by: mylesh on Feb 25, 2008 3:21 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lots to say but will limit to this:
Mr. Holland rightly attacks the Republicans for the justices and policy chiefs they appoint.
However, not once did the Democrats truly challenge them. The Supreme Ct. was voted for by the Dems when they knew we were getting.

Having competent people in positions of power through appointments only means more efficient corporate hacks. Enron was prosecuted under Bush (reluctantly) but thrived under Clinton.

NAFTA destroyed so much: small farms in Latin America, small businesses in the US, etc. Is that any different than today? We are just seeing the results under Bush.

War? Democrats would only make war more appealing to the masses and the European Union.
Clinton's entire presidency was war with Iraq. Not on the news but in the streets from above.

More later.

Myles Hoenig

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» RE: alph Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: alph Posted by: carbon-based
4.7
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Feb 25, 2008 3:48 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"One can piss and moan all one wants about how conservatives are more 'disciplined'...but the reality is that liberals and progressives will always chafe at the idea of being told how to vote."

I'd like to think so.

It's funny how many "progressives" accused Nader of being washed-up, out-of-touch, irrelevant...but then accused him of "spoiling" the anybody-but-Bush campaign. I mean, if he's really that irrelevant, why are they so worried?

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» RE:Three Cheers!! Posted by: Andie927
» RE: 4.7 Posted by: davescott
» RE: 4.7 Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: People are happy to be told how to vote Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
PS
Posted by: mylesh on Feb 25, 2008 3:53 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm backing McKinney.
I hope she runs a new safe state strategy. Stay away from the states that are safe for the D and R. Make them sweat. Make them earn every vote. And then let the Democrats blame themselves when their candidate can't reach these voters.
Myles H

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» RE: PS Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale
» RE: PS Posted by: sanddollar
Silly Me: "Ralph Won, Bush Lost, Gore ..."
Posted by: aouie01 on Feb 25, 2008 3:53 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
(Warning silliness follows)
"Al Gore is not a spoiler. Ralph Nader won the election. George Bush lost. So, did Al Gore. George and Al stole the election from Ralph. Some are under the misconception that this stealing was from mass misreporting of the vote counts largely co-ordinated by the Democratic party and the Republican party, but that is a falseness. The truth is that the election was stolen by a combination of the following two egregious wrongs of masterminded enfranchisement and disenfranchisement. The first wrong is the enfranchisement of those who freely choose only amongst the choices presented by the mass media and are oblivious to almost all of the other choices. The other significant wrong is the disenfranchisement of most of the people living in the American Empire (all the places that those who govern the government of USA control militarily or economically). A vote which takes into account the educated wishes of all those in the American Empire would have clearly shown Ralph Nader as the leading choice. Hence Ralph won the popular choice of those in the American Empire who can make well educated choices, but the election was stolen from Ralph."
Semi-jokingly,
Silly Me

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» Yep, stolen elections Posted by: Cathyc
» Yep, stolen elections Posted by: Cathyc
But you won't vote for him???? Spare me the Bull.
Posted by: maxaron on Feb 25, 2008 3:56 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Holland,

You spend your intellectual effort explaining why Nader was not to blame for the Democrat's losses on 2002 & 2004 but then you say in your last paragraph that you will not vote for Nader this time around. What a lot of baloney. Talk about recidivist stupidity!

Nader's presence in the 2000 election was directly the responsibility of a split democratic party whose naive sense of realpolitik had schizoid notions about Nader. In reality Nader's political shtick is noteworthy only for the devastation left in his wake. This do-gooder has been a wolf in sheep's clothing for the past 8 years and no measure of ascribing blame to others will redeem him in my eyes as a egocentric spoiler.

I weep for the thousands of lives his skewed sense of righteousness has cost. The State of our nation and its current malaise. Spare me, Holland, put the blame at his front door..where it clearly belongs.

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» ???? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: ???? Posted by: 2dogarage
» RE: ???? Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: ???? Posted by: 2dogarage
» nader himself on youtube Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: What are you saying, gazooks? Posted by: HeidiLockwood
Hillary Huckabee
Posted by: Tom Degan on Feb 25, 2008 3:57 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ralph is in the running. Now ask yourselves this question: Whom do you think is going to keep "the base" in line - Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama?

It's a good question. Particularly if you consider the possibilty that the Clintonistas might try to steal this thing by seating the Michigan and Florida delegation. If that happens, it's all over, baby! Senator Clinton won those contests only by accindent. Who knows how many people stayed home because the knew their voted didn't count? Had that not been the case, the results would probably been very different indeed.

Jon Stewart asked a very good question on Larry King Live last night: What makes those people "super delegates"? Were they bitten by a radio-active beetle? If the Clinton campaign is able to steal this thing, the party's base will bolt to Nader so fast, they won't know what hit them.

We can't afford to have the White House in the hands of the GOP for another four years.

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
"The Rant" by Tom Degan

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» RE: Hillary Huckabee Posted by: Lauren
» I take issue with that, Lauren! Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: Hillary Huckabee Posted by: outsideagitator
» RE: Hillary Huckabee Posted by: MobileSucks
Perfect time for a Nader run
Posted by: Democritus on Feb 25, 2008 3:59 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's curious that Mr. Holland would say all the right things about Ralph Nader, and yet say that this is no time for a third-party run.

Au contraire, it is the best of times for a third-party candidacy. With Dennis Kucinich forced from the race because corporate Democrats are trying to steal his House seat, and with Edwards declining to run uphill anymore, Ralph Nader is the best person I can think of to hold the Democratic nominee's feet to the fire and continue to press for progressive values.

As for being a spoiler, Nader answered that Sunday on "Meet the Press." If the Democrats can't win in 2008, he said, then maybe the Party should be disbanded. Ralph will be no spoiler. Instead he will serve as a conscience for the Democratic Party. Will I vote for him? That will depend on how well the Democratic nominee heeds his conscience.

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One small suggestion...
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Feb 25, 2008 4:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"So, Democrats should stop telling people whom to support or what to do with their votes. This is America, and that's just wrong."

I thought that was the basis of electoral politics - replace "telling people whom to support" is the same as "promoting a candidate".

The real reason a lot of people are furious with Nader is not so much is spoiler behavior, but his tacit and active support for GW Bush after the stolen 2000 election, including a failure to condemn his fraudulent selection, on one hand, and his lack of political action other than to run against Democratic candidates every four years.

Here's a must read on Nader and Bush:
Ralph Nader's political olive branch to Bush, March 2001"

"Nader and Weissman sought to couch their enthusiasm for aspects of the Bush administration—above all its extreme nationalist and unilateralist predilections—in measured terms. The article, published March 7, began:

“If it took Richard Nixon to go to China, could George W. Bush be the president who ends corporate welfare as we know it?

“That doesn't appear likely. But in a budget outline that offers little reason to smile to those concerned about the concentration of corporate power, the Bush administration has offered a glimmer of hope on the corporate-welfare front.” . . .

Nader's conceptions may not be terribly profound, but he is not as credulous as he makes out. He is not unaware, for example, of the significance of the timing of his article, and, even more to the point, where it appeared. That Nader rushed into print in the first weeks of the new administration, indeed, within days of Bush's nationally televised budget address, and published his flattering missive on the op-ed pages of the Wall Street Journal, was itself a political statement.

The Journal was no doubt delighted to feature a laudatory piece from the supposedly “left” Nader. Its op-ed pages are notorious as the repository for the most unabashed attacks on democratic rights and the most brazen defenses of wealth and privilege. The Journal serves as the semi-official house organ of the Republican right and spearheaded two political coups in recent years: the ultimately unsuccessful attempt to topple the Clinton administration in the sex-scandal-driven impeachment campaign, and the successful effort to install Bush through the suppression of votes in Florida.

To anyone who has seriously followed Nader's political trajectory, the Wall Street Journal olive branch to the Bush administration could not have come as a complete surprise. . .


Nader is ignorable.

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» RE: One small suggestion... Posted by: Democritus
» A distiction with difference Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: A distiction with difference Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: A distiction with difference Posted by: mahabhusuku
» counterproductive Democrat asses Posted by: MobileSucks
» RE: One small suggestion... Posted by: PennyG.
» Try the Wall Street Journal instead. Posted by: thoughtcriminal
Talk about inexperience
Posted by: Urstrly on Feb 25, 2008 4:12 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Gotta say, I don't think Nader's going to have any traction this time. He can posture all he likes on the high road but people are more engaged on the left than any time I can remember since the sixties, and they're not so despairing as to throw away their votes on a man who has never been elected to any public office. Besides, he's really late to the party.

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sorry, josh -- no way
Posted by: jsheeler on Feb 25, 2008 4:32 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
my comment was so long i had to blog it. you are dead wrong here.

http://getangrywithme.typepad.com

titled "alternet gets it dead wrong (for once)"

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» RE: sorry, josh -- no way Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: sorry, josh -- no way Posted by: Basenjis
» Yeah, no kidding Posted by: HeidiLockwood
Nader is an American Hero and not because he was 'captured'
Posted by: peridot on Feb 25, 2008 4:31 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
but because he has fought a long and righteous battle against the corporate monster that has replaced democracy in America. Given what passes for 'public service' in America and having witnessed the kind of creeps and crooks that populate the halls of government and industry, (including those who wear the democrat label) attacking Mr. Nader is repulsive, mean-spirited, and plainly stupid for anyone who seeks a progressive American government. The left is always in a state of hysteria because the truth doesn't find airtime and the 'leadership' refuses to go looking. Nader brings out important questions that NEED to be talked about. That is the real reason he is dismissed by the corporate 'left'. I think we can agree that there are powerful interest groups that play an inordinate and detrimental role in policy making in the United States. Who would be the person likely to confront them? Well, I doubt that it is going to be any of the 'team players' in the democratic party.
Whatever a person might think about Ralph Nader, he has never surrendered and he cannot be captured by anything or anyone. And just as a passing thought, just why did Mr. Obama change his position on Palestine. Gosh, it turns out to be identical to Mr. McCain's, and Mrs. Clintons, and Gosh... I guess the same as every officeholder and officeseeker in the USA

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small d democrat
Posted by: Lee in Maine on Feb 25, 2008 4:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think it's time to consider a method of voting that will allow people to vote preferentially - make a conscience vote and then a pragmatic vote. It's what Australia does, it works and is truly democratic. We did it in the Maine Democratic caucus. It is empowering to be able to make a statement and know that you're not "throwing away" your vote, you can declare your next preference. No more electoral college.

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» RE: small d democrat Posted by: Lauren
» Lee in Maine Posted by: Basenjis
Nader for President
Posted by: arthur_ide on Feb 25, 2008 4:44 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a liberal Democrat for the past 50 years, who has never voted for anyone who was not a Democrat, and as the former Chair of the Iowa Hardin County Democrats who worked tirelessly for Gore and Edwards with time and money and my home, believing in the right of all women to elect abortion, of people not government voting for or against a war, of requiring hire education standards, fixing a bankrupt economy, and ending outsourcing and deficit spending, if Obama is the Democratic candidate with his name-calling and pandering, I will vote for Nader and leave the DNC that disenfranchises voters because they chose a different date--which is their right--and not subject to a DNC decision. Go Ralph!

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» RE: Nader for President Posted by: MobileSucks
GO FOR THE GEEZERS
Posted by: shd1230 on Feb 25, 2008 5:21 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yeah, baby--McCain is over 70 and Nader is around the same age, I believe. What we really need in the White House is--a GEEZER! (Well, Ronald Reagan is now regarded by the Repubs. as the Second Coming--so why not?

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» RE: GO FOR THE GEEZERS Posted by: Basenjis
It won't matter
Posted by: davescott on Feb 25, 2008 5:34 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nader should be rotting in prison for the egomania that led him to run in 2000 -- when the major parties offered a dramatic difference. Without Nader's run, there might not have been an Iraq or massive tax cuts -- the jackass helped elect Bush. But Nader only matters in the freakish election we had in 2000. He's never taken enough votes to get funding. Obama will outshine him for star appeal. He's a sad little clown, a Harold Stassen, ending a great career in a fit of indulgent irrelevance.

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» RE: It won't matter Posted by: left_libertarian
» RE: It won't matter Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: It won't matter Posted by: MobileSucks
» And... Posted by: HeidiLockwood
» RE: It won't matter Posted by: rhinojos
Its ALWAYS time for a 3rd party run
Posted by: corazon on Feb 25, 2008 5:43 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I would love to see the strangle hold both partys have on congress broken. I would love to see Greens,Liberterians, right alongside Dems and Repugs. It takes the kind of grass roots support that Ron Paul invigorated to get this going.

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old man observer
Posted by: davy on Feb 25, 2008 5:53 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is it with these old men, why don't they have some fun for a change instead of attention seeking.

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otto
Posted by: otto on Feb 25, 2008 5:55 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks again, Josh...you cover the topic well, almost too well. And now maybe I can quit feeling guilty for voting for Nader in 2000, even though my absentee ballot up here in Canada didn't effect the Michigan results.

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If You Believe Bush and Cheney are Criminals
Posted by: left_libertarian on Feb 25, 2008 6:03 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How could you vote for a Democrat?

They had the chance to impeach Bush and Cheney for their many crimes - and did nothing.

Impeachment is not discussed during Clinton and Obama's debates.

Have the Democrats forgotten that the Iraq War was based on lies which are documented?

It seems that the Democrats will let Bush and Cheney, not only walk away free without paying for their crimes, but these thugs will get a government pension and a full security detail.

What is wrong?

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Pathetic Old Man
Posted by: FlowerGirl on Feb 25, 2008 6:06 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nader has to get out of the race for president. He should be in local politics only. He's embarrassing himself... again. There is no point in him being in the mix, not now or ever again... no one wants him for president, and he knows it. He's seventy-three years old... he's too old and so is McCain. Nader should just stay on the lecture circuit and try to change what people are thinking on a smaller, local level.