COMMENTS: 152
The West to the World: Accept Our Values or Die
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Old European fables of Muslims spreading Islam by the sword are reinvented to convey the impression that Muslims are extremely dangerous, highly irresponsible and pay scant regard to human life. Hence the mantra of disarming Muslim countries of WMD has become the rallying cry of the West directed against the Muslim world.
In some cases the arguments are extended to justify the West's ongoing policy of regime change in Syria, Iran and perhaps Pakistan. However, a close study of Islamic rule in the past contradicts the popular western myth that Muslims are bloodthirsty people anxious to wipe out the rest of mankind in the name of Islam.
The same however, cannot be said about the West. The West armed with its secular doctrine and materialistic world-view proceeded to exploit, plunder and colonize vast populations in order to control resources and maximize wealth.
In pursuit of these newfound riches the West succeeded in destroying civilizations such as the Incas, American Indians, Aztecs, and Aborigines. Those who survived colonization were forcibly converted to Christianity, stripped of their heritage and sold into bondage to western companies. For the indigenous people of Africa, India, Asia, the Middle East and others, the promises of freedom quickly evaporated and were replaced by colonial rule. Rather than show remorse towards such atrocities the West could only gloat at its achievements.
Technologies such as cannons, pistols, steam engines, machine guns, airplanes, mustard gas etc only hastened the acquisition of colonies and the exploitation of their people. Resistance offered by the natives towards their colonial masters was met by brute force -- often resulting in the destruction of entire communities. When the West was not destroying the natives they were too busy annihilating each other in a desperate bid to cling on to their precious colonies. World Wars I and II are prime examples of the destructive nature of western values.
This is a description of the Old World where countries like England, France, and Germany built empires and accumulated immense wealth on the death and destruction of millions of innocent people. Is the New World (America leading the West) any different today?
Take the example of the New World and its relationship with Afghanistan and Iraq. Liberation has become occupation; democracy has given way to colonial rule, devastation is termed precision bombing and the slaughter of innocent Muslims is described as collateral damage. Meanwhile, American and British oil companies are queuing up to exploit the oil wells of Iraq and transport the energy reserves of the Caspian Sea to Europe via Afghanistan.
The Islamic Khilafah in the past never treated mankind in such a barbaric fashion. Neither did the Khilafah spread Islam by force nor destroy civilizations. When Islam spread to Egypt, many Coptic Christians did not embrace Islam and today they still number approximately 7 million. Likewise, when India was opened up to Islam the inhabitants were not coerced into accepting Islam. India today has a population of more than 750 million Hindus.
Compare this to extermination of Muslim and Jews in the courts of the Spanish Inquisitors during the much-coveted European renaissance. Those Jews that survived this Spanish holocaust, were warmly welcomed by the Ottoman Caliphate. In Islamic Spain they flourished and became important members of Islamic society.
Today the world has more to fear from the destructive nature of western values than WMD. In the past these values were enforced upon nations either through direct colonial rule or through tyrannical regimes loyal to the West. Presently, the greatest danger facing mankind is the constant threat of the West imposing its values on the rest of the world through WMD.
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Posted by: csds49 on Feb 21, 2008 12:51 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Define your terms
Posted by: mjglow
» RE: Define your terms
Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com
» RE: Define your terms
Posted by: RadicalPriest
» RE: Define your terms
Posted by: BCcovers
» The history of Christianity...
Posted by: buffeliscious
» We're all brainwashed
Posted by: fearn
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Posted by: Lector on Feb 21, 2008 12:51 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: straw into fool's gold?
Posted by: drmeow
» RE: On colonization
Posted by: DesertStone
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Posted by: emmas on Feb 21, 2008 1:55 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I also don't think that those committing the war crimes (current or past)in Africa, south-east Asia, Latin America and the Middle East have even the remotest interest in promoting anything resembling morality, since they have none. 'Spreading democracy' and so forth is politicode for forcing other countries to put the interests of the United States and it allies ahead of their own, in order to put more wealth in the hands of those who already have so much that they couldn't spend it if they tried.
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» typos
Posted by: emmas
» RE: e: article
Posted by: Vik
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Posted by: Derek Maddox on Feb 21, 2008 3:29 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The fact that Muslims are, or can be, "extremely dangerous, highly irresponsible and pay scant regard to human life" are not being spread by centuries old fables of life during the Crusades. Indeed, I would be absolutely shocked if any US high school taught even one lesson about the Crusades.
No, such impressions are being spread by the evening news. Name one other religious group that is intimately associated with suicide bombings which kill innocent victims. Name one other religious group that condones the stoning of rape VICTIMS because they have dishonored their families. Name one other religious group that posts (regularly posts) videotapes of beheadings and other mutilations of their captives.
The actions of our ancestors, Muslim and western alike, are clouded by the passing of time and the incomplete and inaccurate nature of the existing record. The actions of our modern counterparts, however, are crystal clear and recorded in living (however briefly) color for the world to see.
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» RE: What are we comparing?
Posted by: Overlord
» Please
Posted by: Derek Maddox
» RE: Please
Posted by: emmas
» RE: Please
Posted by: Overlord
» RE: What are we comparing?
Posted by: D. Julian Terry
» RE: Christians
Posted by: DesertStone
» RE: Christians
Posted by: mjabele
» Nothing has Changed! Just Better Packaging for the Rubes!
Posted by: sofla100
» Make up your minds
Posted by: Derek Maddox
» RE: Make up your minds
Posted by: Overlord
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Posted by: leland61 on Feb 21, 2008 3:32 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Old European fables of Muslims spreading Islam by the sword are reinvented to convey the impression that Muslims are extremely dangerous, highly irresponsible and pay scant regard to human life."
What a blatant lie!! Islam did spread itself with fire and sword. It destroyed and subjugated with wild abandon. Where it gained ascendancy Muslims murdered women, children and men as if they were clearing brush on Bush's ranch. Those who were still alive after fire and sword did their work were reduced to near slave status, paid special taxes, were limited as to what sort of business they could enter into, and in some cases simply eliminated altogether.
Two current examples: Saudi Arabia - a ghastly remnant of the 7th century socially, culturally and religiously, using billions in oil money to spread a viscious brand of Islam around the world - Wahabism; allows no other religion to be openly practiced, etc.,etc.
Turkey - home of Eastern Orthodox Christianity. There are hardly any Christians left. Priests, ministers and laypeople still operate at their mortal peril. The restrictions on the Patriarch of Constantinople make any attempt to portray Turkey as a 'secular' democracy a total joke. No wonder the most EU members don't want them in the EU. It is like letting the fox in the hen house.
The list goes on, and on, and on, and on.
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» RE: Only a complete ignoramus
Posted by: Overlord
» You're being a bit selective in your comparisons.....
Posted by: mjabele
» ...cont.
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: ...cont.
Posted by: Overlord
» The Marines will follow orders.....
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: The Marines will follow orders.....
Posted by: Overlord
» RE: ...cont.
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Only a complete ignoramus
Posted by: Overlord
» RE: Only a complete ignoramus
Posted by: BCcovers
» RE: Only a complete ignoramus
Posted by: Overlord
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Posted by: Overlord on Feb 21, 2008 3:48 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Before them there were the British and the French and countless other European powers exploiting nations, colonizing them calling them savages. Shipping 10 million Africans to work in plantations in the Americas, again stolen from the indigenous Indians who were massacred. Before that there were the crusades, religious fanatics murdering everything in their path. The list is too long to be listed here.
The war on terror is not an isolated event, nor the last. It has however removed the mask of human rights, freedom and peace from the face of capitalist colonial hegemonic west. They remain what they were in 1000AD. Blood thirsty plunderes. The world knows now.
There is however some hope, China and India rising economically, the day is not far when they will be able to challenge the hegemony of USA. Though the question remains, will they turn into monsters just like their predecessors.
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» RE: Overlord
Posted by: Persephone8
» RE: Overlord
Posted by: RadicalPriest
» RE: Overlord:better what's that?
Posted by: davidg
» The veneer of civilization is REALLY thin.
Posted by: Ignatz deFyre
» It's not so simple. Human nature came first. Religion later.
Posted by: Ignatz deFyre
» RE: Overlord: THANKS, GOOD STUFF
Posted by: davidg
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Posted by: HeKnew on Feb 21, 2008 3:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Direct Primaries!
Direct Elections!
Direct Democracy!
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Posted by: salamah on Feb 21, 2008 4:14 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: salamah mahdi
Posted by: scheherezade
» RE: salamah mahdi
Posted by: mjglow
» RE: salamah mahdi
Posted by: scheherezade
» RE: salamah mahdi
Posted by: mjglow
» RE: salamah mahdi
Posted by: BCcovers
» RE: salamah mahdi
Posted by: scheherezade
» RE: salamah mahdi
Posted by: emmas
» Christianity at its core is pretty damn sexist
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Christianity at its core is pretty damn sexist
Posted by: scheherezade
» RE: Christianity at its core is pretty damn sexist
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Christianity at its core is pretty damn sexist
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Christianity at its core is pretty damn sexist
Posted by: scheherezade
» RE: Christianity at its core is pretty damn sexist
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Christianity at its core is pretty damn sexist
Posted by: hagwind
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Posted by: hagwind on Feb 21, 2008 5:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not to mention that it seems bizarre to me that we're trying so hard to export values that are killing us off: Treat people like cogs! Buy lots of stuff! All's fair if it gets you rich! Rigged elections and bogus news are OK as long as you call it "democracy"!
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» RE: Bravo!- Exactly
Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale
» RE: Bravo!
Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com
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Posted by: argyle on Feb 21, 2008 6:18 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Eventually their will be no kings. No man will rule over another by right of birth. The vast centers of informational, economic, and political power that is today rested in the hands of the few will be peacefully broken apart. All the resources of the world, and all our vast technology, will be shared with all through a just meritocracy.
It is time to grow up, and it starts through removing the "will of the almighty as perceived through a man" as a just cause of anything at a civil level. The hand of the divine is sure and strong enough to sway the hearts of individuals in order that they might vote as "God intended".
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» RE: Sorry man, but
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Sorry man, but -All religions are MISOGYNISTIC!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Sorry man, but -All religions are MISOGYNISTIC!
Posted by: Basenjis
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Posted by: g50 on Feb 21, 2008 6:51 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dude, every culture has jerkoff aggressors. There is also plenty of loveliness, whether in Cairo, Tehran, Paris or San Francisco. Okay?
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» Not OK
Posted by: fearn
» RE: Not OK
Posted by: g50
» Mr. Mustafa (the author) forgot to mention Saudia Arabia
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: grn1 on Feb 21, 2008 6:58 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Values
Posted by: g50
» What War? You mean INVASION, don't you...
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: scott balogh on Feb 21, 2008 7:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: edgeofnowhere on Feb 21, 2008 8:06 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
nearly enough to control the eons of aggression and murderous suppression of comptition that ensured our success as the hapless planet's dominant species.
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» Another "christian" speaks
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: carbon-based on Feb 21, 2008 8:32 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Please, for all the faults of any western nation, Muslims today have proven to be among the most cruel and intolerant people in any nation.
Unfortunately, most Muslims are peace loving people and are caught up in the fanatical actions of the few. It's about time they stood up and denounced such actions and maybe the world would view them differently.
Just ask yourself - would you rather live in Iran or America (or any other western country).
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» Do the math
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Do the math
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Do the math
Posted by: Crazy H
» Huh?
Posted by: fearn
» RE: Huh?
Posted by: carbon-based
» My place of residence - is NOT America!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: My place of residence - is NOT America!
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: My place of residence
Posted by: Overlord
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Posted by: zeofredo on Feb 21, 2008 9:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe we have created the fervent anti-West attitude in the middle East as a direct result of our policies that have kept Muslim societies much poorer and disadvantaged then our preferential trade partners. By keeping them out of a loop that would allow certain basic comforts for the general population, and showing gross favoritism to nasty systems like the Saudi monarchy, it leads to outrage and a sense of futility among the dispossessed members of society.
Provocation only leads to more provocation... especially when it's done on someone else's home turf and they have nowhere else to run, en masse.
I actually believe that certain progressive behavior, such as freedom for women and critical speech, could be a common feature of these societies as long as people felt they were able to achieve their aims in life. When you are under siege and foraging for food and water, or unable to work after graduation, or feeling powerless to provide for your family, I'm sure anyone in the West would in turn fall into the same unpleasant patterns of behavior that result from such extreme stress.
There is much that needs to be corrected in Muslim culture, but don't forget... it is also a continuation of Judeo-Christian theology, and those faiths have their own questionable histories of war against infidels and restrictive social control. We had our time in the dark not too long ago, remember...
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» RE: Consider this... We (in the west) are still in the dark...
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: nfamous on Feb 21, 2008 9:37 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
White people view the world differently from all other races. Whites see everything as a competition and a struggle. It is a by-product of their evolution in colder, harsher climates where they had to be technologically savvy to survive. Unfortunately for the rest of the planet, whites have now taken their survival ideology to the extreme and now it is actually doing the opposite. White people need to look inside themselves and try to figure out why they see everything as a commodity or something to be exploited. Why is nature your enemy and not your ally? Only whites can save this planet. The rest of us can only delay it and hope that it's enough time for whites to stop their insanity.
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» RE: Western culture = White culture
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Western culture = White culture
Posted by: g50
» Whites are competitive? I'm white and I'm not competitive!
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: daniel1982 on Feb 21, 2008 10:23 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Like all Muslims, Mr. Abid Mustafa suffers from revisionist history. Islam was spread by the sword. Thats a fact. The Islamic caliphate, in a period of about a hundred years, spread from Spain to Byzantium. Surely Abid does not think that these armies were welcomed. Does he think that Charles Martel wrote a strongly worded letter to the invaders that halted the Islamic expansion into Europe? Ha!
There are many skeletons in the Islamic closet, the problem is that the West is generally much more honest about its history - Muslims are not.
Apart from that, the article is mess. Take this line "Today the world has more to fear from the destructive nature of western values than WMD. ". He cannot possibly think that when someone talks about "Western Values", they're actually referring to the Inquisition, and not things like "Democracy", "Pluralism", "Liberty", "Women's Rights", "Individual rights". Values which are superior to the medieval ethics of Islam.
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» RE: Sure sure
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Sure sure
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Sure sure
Posted by: fearn
» RE: Sure sure
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Sure sure
Posted by: DesertStone
» RE: Sure sure
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Sure sure
Posted by: DesertStone
» RE: Values: the thing that is said and the thing that is done
Posted by: zeofredo
» Apparently you never watched an episode of South Park...
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Apparently you never heard of Andres Serrano or Robert Mapplethorpe
Posted by: Crazy H
» Which have never been carried out
Posted by: freedomlover
» RE: Which have never been carried out
Posted by: Crazy H
» There you'd be wrong
Posted by: freedomlover
» RE: There you'd be wrong
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Uri Avnery begs to differ from your ignorant, Islamophobe rant
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: Uri Avnery begs to differ from your ignorant, Islamophobe rant
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Uri Avnery's analysis vs. Islamophobe's rant
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: Uri Avnery begs to differ from your ignorant, Islamophobe rant
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Uri Avnery begs to differ from your ignorant, Islamophobe rant
Posted by: daniel1982
» Personally, I see the truth as more balanced...
Posted by: mjabele
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Posted by: zeofredo on Feb 21, 2008 11:22 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've enjoyed a glass beer with serious Muslims... just like Catholics (for instance) who are known to murder, sleep around or basically get in trouble, they are people who wriggle out of their religious obligations and just want to cut loose once in a while.
They are maybe more principled and disciplined than a lot of 'upstanding' folk that I see in the vanguard of our society, actually.
So break the ice: say 'hi' to a Muslim!
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» I have befriended Muslims and Catholics and...
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: willymack on Feb 21, 2008 11:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: maxpayne on Feb 21, 2008 2:15 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: sofla100 on Feb 21, 2008 3:34 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The Crusades Continue, Hitler, Stalin and Bush Demonstrate It's More Recent Developments!
Posted by: daniel1982
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Feb 21, 2008 4:35 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Other than a question: how do...
a) life expectancies
and
b) human rights
compare between "the horrible West" and the "sanctified ME"?
Hmmmm....?
Another "indictment of Western Civilization" easily dismissed as religionism. Someone tell me that's not the thrust of the prAggressive pulpit speaking...
P'raps the author hasn't been a beneficiary of a righteous raping in the name of a pervasive, state-sponsored superstition?
As Wallah wills it....
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Posted by: Ydotheyhateus on Feb 21, 2008 5:42 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"...Islam is murderous by nature. Actually, "Muslim" and "terrorist" are synonymous. Every Muslim is a terrorist, every terrorist a Muslim.
A sceptic might ask: How did it happen that the wonderful Western culture gave birth to the Inquisition, the pogroms, the burning of witches, the annihilation of the Native Americans, the Holocaust, the ethnic cleansings and other atrocities without number--but that was in the past. Now Western culture is the embodiment of freedom and progress.
Professor Huntington was not thinking about us in particular. His task was to satisfy a peculiar American craving: the American empire always needs a virtual, world-embracing enemy, a single enemy which includes all the opponents of the United States around the world. The Communists delivered the goods--the whole world was divided between Good Guys (the Americans and their supporters) and Bad Guys (the Commies). Everybody who opposed American interests was automatically a Communist--Nelson Mandela in South Africa, Salvador Allende in Chile, Fidel Castro in Cuba, while the masters of Apartheid, the death squads of Augusto Pinochet and the secret police of the Shah of Iran belonged, like us, to the Free World.
When the Communist empire collapsed, America was suddenly left without a world-wide enemy. This vacuum has now been filled by the Muslims-Terrorists. Not only Osama bin Laden, but also the Chechnyan freedom fighters, the angry North-African youth of the Paris banlieus, the Iranian Revolutionary Guards, the insurgents in the Philippines.
Thus the American world view rearranged itself: a good world (Western Civilization) and a bad world (Islamic civilization). Diplomats still take care to make a distinction between "radical Islamists" and "moderate Muslims", but that is only for appearances' sake. Between ourselves, we know of course that they are all Osama bin Ladens. They are all the same.
This way, a huge part of the world, composed of manifold and very different countries, and a great religion, with many different and even opposing tendencies (like Christianity, like Judaism), which has given the world unmatched scientific and cultural treasures, is thrown into one and the same pot."
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Posted by: boundjymind on Feb 21, 2008 5:47 PM
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» RE: West is generally much more honest about its history - Muslims are not.
Posted by: daniel1982
» NO... it’s not. AT ALL. You need to get beyond your own skeletons...
Posted by: OrwellMan
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Posted by: Mister_PsyOps on Feb 21, 2008 6:12 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the accepted principles or standards of an individual or a group
“Neither did the Khilafah spread Islam by force nor destroy civilizations.”
Sorry, but this just isn’t so.
From the time of the illiterate warlord that was Prophet Mohammad and on to Rashidun and Umayyad Caliphs, to the Ottomans, conquest by empire was the rule not the exception.
All empires conquered their subjects primarily by coercion as in by ancient sword or modern gun not by persuasion (although they still do both). That said, Muslim empire was less bloody than most.
As for the west, “Our Values” are not the values of common folk but the “values” of a parasite corporate criminal class in the west that dictate agendas through an utterly cooked Washington and MSM circus maximus. This is what Einstein called the “ruling class”.
Anyone that knows history beyond the comic book propaganda brand taught at western university level understands this well enough not to be hornswoggled by the usual suspects.
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Posted by: lwbaby on Feb 21, 2008 7:37 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It has always bugged me that when South African apathied was all the focus of rage we acted but we just shrug off women being killed for being raped as *Cultural Differences*.
So yes, our values are better than anyone's who tell women they can't work. Or drive. Or choose who they want to marry. Or submit to genital mutilation. Or get stoned to death for being raped.
Our culture IS superior when it comes to women's rights. No other culture in the world respects women the way we do.
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» RE: I suggest looking in the mirror once in a while
Posted by: yellows
» RE: I suggest looking in the mirror once in a while
Posted by: lwbaby
» RE: I suggest looking in the mirror once in a while
Posted by: yellows
» RE: I suggest looking in the mirror once in a while
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: You do know that Saudi regime exists because of our government, don't you?
Posted by: daniel1982
» Not so much that I'd want to invade them.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: You do know that Saudi regime exists because of our government, don't you?
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: If our vlues mean that women can work or drive m.
Posted by: mandiwrite
» RE: If our vlues mean that women can work or drive m.
Posted by: mandiwrite
» RE: If our vlues mean that women can work or drive m.
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: If our vlues mean that women can work or drive m.
Posted by: mandiwrite
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus on Feb 21, 2008 8:18 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The point is this. Islam, like other religions, distinguishes between legitimate and illegitimate acts of violence.
In fact, Muslims are at least as likely as Americans to condemn targeting civilians as morally wrong. A recent study shows that 46% of Americans think that "bombing and other attacks intentionally aimed at civilians" are "never justified," while 24% believe these attacks are "often or sometimes justified."
Contrast this with data taken the same year from some of the largest majority Muslim nations, where 74% of respondents in Indonesia agreed that terrorist attacks are "never justified"; in Pakistan, that figure was 86%; in Bangladesh, 81% , and in Iran 80%.
But what do Muslims across the world think about extremism and terrorism?
A Gallup study of some 40 majority Muslim countries, "Who Speaks for Islam? What a Billion Muslims Think," reveals that Muslims everywhere are deeply concerned about extremism. Gallup also found that the primary driver for sympathy for terrorism was not piety, but politics.
Similar trends have been identified by other studies on suicide bombers.
The Qur'an does not advocate or condone illegitimate violence or terrorism. The Islamic tradition places extensive limits on the use of violence and rejects terrorism, hijackings, and hostage taking. However, Muslims are permitted, indeed at times required to defend their religion, their families, and the Islamic community from aggression.
Throughout history, given the power of religion to legitimate and inspire, the Quran like the Bible has been interpreted and misinterpreted to justify resistance and liberation struggles, extremism and terrorism, holy and unholy wars. The Qur'an and the Bible contain verses about fighting and warfare. Both their prophets (Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon and Muhammad were also warriors) and scriptures reflect the violent contexts in which their communities developed.
The Quran provides guidelines for conducting war: who is to fight and who is exempted (Quran 48:17, 9:91), when hostilities must stop (Quran 2:192), and how prisoners should be treated (Quran 47:4). Most important, verses such as 2:194 emphasize that warfare and the response to violence and aggression must be proportional: "Whoever transgresses against you, respond in kind." According to Islamic law, for a war to be morally justifiable it must be fought in defense of the faith; cannot be waged primarily for material gain and possession; must respect the rights of non-combatants (lives, freedom, property); must not harm women, children, old people and invalids or torture prisoners of war or demolish places of worship and kill religious leaders.
John L. Esposito is University Professor and Professor of Religion and International Affairs, Georgetown University and author of What Everyone Needs to Know about Islam and Unholy War: Terror in the Name of Islam. He also is founding director of the Prince Alwaleed bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding at Georgetown's Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service
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» RE: Prof. Esposito refutes 'Protocols of the Elders of Islamofascists'
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Thank US government for Taliban, Saudi regime, and Iranian mullahs
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: Thank US government for Taliban, Saudi regime, and Iranian mullahs
Posted by: daniel1982
Comments are closed-
Posted by: gellero on Feb 22, 2008 6:44 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Indonesia and Malaysia are more secular and don't have that Wahabist 'cut their heads off' mentality, and are capable of making our iPods and other advanced goods, and having a progressive culture. I don't think Islam is the problem, it's the Immams who spout the Wahabist venom. As long as they exist, the Middle East is doomed to a Medieval lifestyle.
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» RE: I'm Waiting.............
Posted by: saltoafronteira
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Posted by: nigelbest on Feb 23, 2008 10:21 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the enemy isnt over there - it's up there
the most powerful have 100,000 times as much moneypower as the average, and 99% of people are below the average - the most powerful are 100,000,000 times more powerful than the world median person
money is power - 90% of people get between 100th and 10,000th of the average pay/hr - 99% get less than the world average pay of US$40/hr [that's the average if you pay all housewives and students in the world as well [who also work]] - the most overpaid get 100,000 times the average pay/hr, 100,000,000 times the world median pay/hr, 1,000,000,000 times the world lowest pay/hr
draw the graph of moneypower and bear it in mind - 0.1mm for the lowest pay, 1cm for the person better paid than 90% of humans, one metre for the average, 100,000 metres for the highest
history is not made, political decisions are not made, national actions are not taken, by the west or the east, but by the most powerful
a person with a billion can hire a million soldiers for 1000 days at $1/day - a person with a billion can hire 100,000 soldiers for 1000 days at $10/day
the enemy is super-super-extreme moneypower inequality
yes, the super-powerful [in west and east] wear sheep's clothing in public - say god is on their side - [god don't say nuttin'] - to fool the slaves, the cannonfodder
if only all the violence was directed towards the 0.00001% most overpaid, overpowerful!
think of people as being of a height in proportion to their moneypower - someone 100,000 times the height of the average, 10,000,000 times the height of the median income - and then rethink history past and present - and future - how much can you care about creatures 10,000,000th of your size? - or about creatures 100,000th of your size? - or even about creatures 100th of your size [the merely very rich]? - the people 100th your size [people with 1000 times the world average income, which is $40/hr - people with $40,000/hr] are just pawns, the 99% of people on below average pay/hr are just invisible dust on the chessboard
these men [hidden behind the public faces of politics, behind presidents and queens] the most heartless, diabolical, inhuman, grasping, cunning, paranoid, acquisitive, mass-murdering, warmongering, cannonfoddering, pleonectic, terrorising, torturing, bullying, brutal, reptilian, self-disguising, duplicitous, arrogant humans - who have got where they are by maximal moneypower monomania, by being more acquisitive than everyone else in the world, who have sometimes come up from mafias and druglordship, are the cause and source of war, crime and the 3000-year growth of weaponry
it is they who own and operate the matrix, use 99.9999% of humans as batteries - $1 billion at 10% doubles every 7 years, multiplies by 1000 every 70 years - money is paper blood
they *use* your identification with your country, your leaders, your gods - your willingness to demonise foreigners - your swallowing of their media rhetoric - they play you like harps - they keep you looking outward for enemies, instead of looking up - they successfully hide 99.99% of their deeds
one person cannot work more than about 10% harder than the average per hour - pay justice is equal pay for equal **work** - no one can work more than 100 hrs x 50 weeks x 50 yrs = 250,000 hrs/lifetime - so the highest *self-earned* lifetime income is *definitely* less than $10 million -
vigilantly effectively limit fortunes to $10 million and you won't have any war, you won't have nuclear extinction racing towards you, you won't have environmental degradation, you won't have a billion offshoot problems, you won't have [continued]
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» RE: Not the West, not Islam - the super-powerful, the matrix operators
Posted by: nigelbest
» RE: Not the West, not Islam - the super-powerful, the matrix operators
Posted by: nigelbest
» RE: Not the West, not Islam - the super-powerful, the matrix operators
Posted by: fleabitn
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Posted by: Kendall41 on Feb 24, 2008 2:30 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: bobtr900 on Feb 24, 2008 12:02 PM
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» RE: And the Pope...
Posted by: saltoafronteira
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Posted by: csds49 on Feb 21, 2008 12:51 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Define your terms
Posted by: mjglow
» RE: Define your terms
Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com
» RE: Define your terms
Posted by: RadicalPriest
» RE: Define your terms
Posted by: BCcovers
» The history of Christianity...
Posted by: buffeliscious
» We're all brainwashed
Posted by: fearn
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Posted by: Lector on Feb 21, 2008 12:51 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: straw into fool's gold?
Posted by: drmeow
» RE: On colonization
Posted by: DesertStone
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Posted by: emmas on Feb 21, 2008 1:55 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I also don't think that those committing the war crimes (current or past)in Africa, south-east Asia, Latin America and the Middle East have even the remotest interest in promoting anything resembling morality, since they have none. 'Spreading democracy' and so forth is politicode for forcing other countries to put the interests of the United States and it allies ahead of their own, in order to put more wealth in the hands of those who already have so much that they couldn't spend it if they tried.
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» typos
Posted by: emmas
» RE: e: article
Posted by: Vik
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Posted by: Derek Maddox on Feb 21, 2008 3:29 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The fact that Muslims are, or can be, "extremely dangerous, highly irresponsible and pay scant regard to human life" are not being spread by centuries old fables of life during the Crusades. Indeed, I would be absolutely shocked if any US high school taught even one lesson about the Crusades.
No, such impressions are being spread by the evening news. Name one other religious group that is intimately associated with suicide bombings which kill innocent victims. Name one other religious group that condones the stoning of rape VICTIMS because they have dishonored their families. Name one other religious group that posts (regularly posts) videotapes of beheadings and other mutilations of their captives.
The actions of our ancestors, Muslim and western alike, are clouded by the passing of time and the incomplete and inaccurate nature of the existing record. The actions of our modern counterparts, however, are crystal clear and recorded in living (however briefly) color for the world to see.
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» RE: What are we comparing?
Posted by: Overlord
» Please
Posted by: Derek Maddox
» RE: Please
Posted by: emmas
» RE: Please
Posted by: Overlord
» RE: What are we comparing?
Posted by: D. Julian Terry
» RE: Christians
Posted by: DesertStone
» RE: Christians
Posted by: mjabele
» Nothing has Changed! Just Better Packaging for the Rubes!
Posted by: sofla100
» Make up your minds
Posted by: Derek Maddox
» RE: Make up your minds
Posted by: Overlord
Comments are closed-
Posted by: leland61 on Feb 21, 2008 3:32 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Old European fables of Muslims spreading Islam by the sword are reinvented to convey the impression that Muslims are extremely dangerous, highly irresponsible and pay scant regard to human life."
What a blatant lie!! Islam did spread itself with fire and sword. It destroyed and subjugated with wild abandon. Where it gained ascendancy Muslims murdered women, children and men as if they were clearing brush on Bush's ranch. Those who were still alive after fire and sword did their work were reduced to near slave status, paid special taxes, were limited as to what sort of business they could enter into, and in some cases simply eliminated altogether.
Two current examples: Saudi Arabia - a ghastly remnant of the 7th century socially, culturally and religiously, using billions in oil money to spread a viscious brand of Islam around the world - Wahabism; allows no other religion to be openly practiced, etc.,etc.
Turkey - home of Eastern Orthodox Christianity. There are hardly any Christians left. Priests, ministers and laypeople still operate at their mortal peril. The restrictions on the Patriarch of Constantinople make any attempt to portray Turkey as a 'secular' democracy a total joke. No wonder the most EU members don't want them in the EU. It is like letting the fox in the hen house.
The list goes on, and on, and on, and on.
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» RE: Only a complete ignoramus
Posted by: Overlord
» You're being a bit selective in your comparisons.....
Posted by: mjabele
» ...cont.
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: ...cont.
Posted by: Overlord
» The Marines will follow orders.....
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: The Marines will follow orders.....
Posted by: Overlord
» RE: ...cont.
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Only a complete ignoramus
Posted by: Overlord
» RE: Only a complete ignoramus
Posted by: BCcovers
» RE: Only a complete ignoramus
Posted by: Overlord
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Overlord on Feb 21, 2008 3:48 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Before them there were the British and the French and countless other European powers exploiting nations, colonizing them calling them savages. Shipping 10 million Africans to work in plantations in the Americas, again stolen from the indigenous Indians who were massacred. Before that there were the crusades, religious fanatics murdering everything in their path. The list is too long to be listed here.
The war on terror is not an isolated event, nor the last. It has however removed the mask of human rights, freedom and peace from the face of capitalist colonial hegemonic west. They remain what they were in 1000AD. Blood thirsty plunderes. The world knows now.
There is however some hope, China and India rising economically, the day is not far when they will be able to challenge the hegemony of USA. Though the question remains, will they turn into monsters just like their predecessors.
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» RE: Overlord
Posted by: Persephone8
» RE: Overlord
Posted by: RadicalPriest
» RE: Overlord:better what's that?
Posted by: davidg
» The veneer of civilization is REALLY thin.
Posted by: Ignatz deFyre
» It's not so simple. Human nature came first. Religion later.
Posted by: Ignatz deFyre
» RE: Overlord: THANKS, GOOD STUFF
Posted by: davidg
Comments are closed-
Posted by: HeKnew on Feb 21, 2008 3:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Direct Primaries!
Direct Elections!
Direct Democracy!
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Posted by: salamah on Feb 21, 2008 4:14 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: salamah mahdi
Posted by: scheherezade
» RE: salamah mahdi
Posted by: mjglow
» RE: salamah mahdi
Posted by: scheherezade
» RE: salamah mahdi
Posted by: mjglow
» RE: salamah mahdi
Posted by: BCcovers
» RE: salamah mahdi
Posted by: scheherezade
» RE: salamah mahdi
Posted by: emmas
» Christianity at its core is pretty damn sexist
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Christianity at its core is pretty damn sexist
Posted by: scheherezade
» RE: Christianity at its core is pretty damn sexist
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Christianity at its core is pretty damn sexist
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Christianity at its core is pretty damn sexist
Posted by: scheherezade
» RE: Christianity at its core is pretty damn sexist
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Christianity at its core is pretty damn sexist
Posted by: hagwind
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hagwind on Feb 21, 2008 5:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not to mention that it seems bizarre to me that we're trying so hard to export values that are killing us off: Treat people like cogs! Buy lots of stuff! All's fair if it gets you rich! Rigged elections and bogus news are OK as long as you call it "democracy"!
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» RE: Bravo!- Exactly
Posted by: AngryWhiteFemale
» RE: Bravo!
Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com
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Posted by: argyle on Feb 21, 2008 6:18 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Eventually their will be no kings. No man will rule over another by right of birth. The vast centers of informational, economic, and political power that is today rested in the hands of the few will be peacefully broken apart. All the resources of the world, and all our vast technology, will be shared with all through a just meritocracy.
It is time to grow up, and it starts through removing the "will of the almighty as perceived through a man" as a just cause of anything at a civil level. The hand of the divine is sure and strong enough to sway the hearts of individuals in order that they might vote as "God intended".
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» RE: Sorry man, but
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Sorry man, but -All religions are MISOGYNISTIC!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Sorry man, but -All religions are MISOGYNISTIC!
Posted by: Basenjis
Comments are closed-
Posted by: g50 on Feb 21, 2008 6:51 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dude, every culture has jerkoff aggressors. There is also plenty of loveliness, whether in Cairo, Tehran, Paris or San Francisco. Okay?
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» Not OK
Posted by: fearn
» RE: Not OK
Posted by: g50
» Mr. Mustafa (the author) forgot to mention Saudia Arabia
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: grn1 on Feb 21, 2008 6:58 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Values
Posted by: g50
» What War? You mean INVASION, don't you...
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: scott balogh on Feb 21, 2008 7:33 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: edgeofnowhere on Feb 21, 2008 8:06 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
nearly enough to control the eons of aggression and murderous suppression of comptition that ensured our success as the hapless planet's dominant species.
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» Another "christian" speaks
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: carbon-based on Feb 21, 2008 8:32 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Please, for all the faults of any western nation, Muslims today have proven to be among the most cruel and intolerant people in any nation.
Unfortunately, most Muslims are peace loving people and are caught up in the fanatical actions of the few. It's about time they stood up and denounced such actions and maybe the world would view them differently.
Just ask yourself - would you rather live in Iran or America (or any other western country).
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» Do the math
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Do the math
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Do the math
Posted by: Crazy H
» Huh?
Posted by: fearn
» RE: Huh?
Posted by: carbon-based
» My place of residence - is NOT America!
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: My place of residence - is NOT America!
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: My place of residence
Posted by: Overlord
Comments are closed-
Posted by: zeofredo on Feb 21, 2008 9:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe we have created the fervent anti-West attitude in the middle East as a direct result of our policies that have kept Muslim societies much poorer and disadvantaged then our preferential trade partners. By keeping them out of a loop that would allow certain basic comforts for the general population, and showing gross favoritism to nasty systems like the Saudi monarchy, it leads to outrage and a sense of futility among the dispossessed members of society.
Provocation only leads to more provocation... especially when it's done on someone else's home turf and they have nowhere else to run, en masse.
I actually believe that certain progressive behavior, such as freedom for women and critical speech, could be a common feature of these societies as long as people felt they were able to achieve their aims in life. When you are under siege and foraging for food and water, or unable to work after graduation, or feeling powerless to provide for your family, I'm sure anyone in the West would in turn fall into the same unpleasant patterns of behavior that result from such extreme stress.
There is much that needs to be corrected in Muslim culture, but don't forget... it is also a continuation of Judeo-Christian theology, and those faiths have their own questionable histories of war against infidels and restrictive social control. We had our time in the dark not too long ago, remember...
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» RE: Consider this... We (in the west) are still in the dark...
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: nfamous on Feb 21, 2008 9:37 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
White people view the world differently from all other races. Whites see everything as a competition and a struggle. It is a by-product of their evolution in colder, harsher climates where they had to be technologically savvy to survive. Unfortunately for the rest of the planet, whites have now taken their survival ideology to the extreme and now it is actually doing the opposite. White people need to look inside themselves and try to figure out why they see everything as a commodity or something to be exploited. Why is nature your enemy and not your ally? Only whites can save this planet. The rest of us can only delay it and hope that it's enough time for whites to stop their insanity.
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» RE: Western culture = White culture
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Western culture = White culture
Posted by: g50
» Whites are competitive? I'm white and I'm not competitive!
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: daniel1982 on Feb 21, 2008 10:23 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Like all Muslims, Mr. Abid Mustafa suffers from revisionist history. Islam was spread by the sword. Thats a fact. The Islamic caliphate, in a period of about a hundred years, spread from Spain to Byzantium. Surely Abid does not think that these armies were welcomed. Does he think that Charles Martel wrote a strongly worded letter to the invaders that halted the Islamic expansion into Europe? Ha!
There are many skeletons in the Islamic closet, the problem is that the West is generally much more honest about its history - Muslims are not.
Apart from that, the article is mess. Take this line "Today the world has more to fear from the destructive nature of western values than WMD. ". He cannot possibly think that when someone talks about "Western Values", they're actually referring to the Inquisition, and not things like "Democracy", "Pluralism", "Liberty", "Women's Rights", "Individual rights". Values which are superior to the medieval ethics of Islam.
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» RE: Sure sure
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Sure sure
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Sure sure
Posted by: fearn
» RE: Sure sure
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Sure sure
Posted by: DesertStone
» RE: Sure sure
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Sure sure
Posted by: DesertStone
» RE: Values: the thing that is said and the thing that is done
Posted by: zeofredo
» Apparently you never watched an episode of South Park...
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Apparently you never heard of Andres Serrano or Robert Mapplethorpe
Posted by: Crazy H
» Which have never been carried out
Posted by: freedomlover
» RE: Which have never been carried out
Posted by: Crazy H
» There you'd be wrong
Posted by: freedomlover
» RE: There you'd be wrong
Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Uri Avnery begs to differ from your ignorant, Islamophobe rant
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: Uri Avnery begs to differ from your ignorant, Islamophobe rant
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Uri Avnery's analysis vs. Islamophobe's rant
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: Uri Avnery begs to differ from your ignorant, Islamophobe rant
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Uri Avnery begs to differ from your ignorant, Islamophobe rant
Posted by: daniel1982
» Personally, I see the truth as more balanced...
Posted by: mjabele
Comments are closed-
Posted by: zeofredo on Feb 21, 2008 11:22 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've enjoyed a glass beer with serious Muslims... just like Catholics (for instance) who are known to murder, sleep around or basically get in trouble, they are people who wriggle out of their religious obligations and just want to cut loose once in a while.
They are maybe more principled and disciplined than a lot of 'upstanding' folk that I see in the vanguard of our society, actually.
So break the ice: say 'hi' to a Muslim!
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» I have befriended Muslims and Catholics and...
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: willymack on Feb 21, 2008 11:20 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: maxpayne on Feb 21, 2008 2:15 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: sofla100 on Feb 21, 2008 3:34 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The Crusades Continue, Hitler, Stalin and Bush Demonstrate It's More Recent Developments!
Posted by: daniel1982
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Posted by: ABetterFuture on Feb 21, 2008 4:35 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Other than a question: how do...
a) life expectancies
and
b) human rights
compare between "the horrible West" and the "sanctified ME"?
Hmmmm....?
Another "indictment of Western Civilization" easily dismissed as religionism. Someone tell me that's not the thrust of the prAggressive pulpit speaking...
P'raps the author hasn't been a beneficiary of a righteous raping in the name of a pervasive, state-sponsored superstition?
As Wallah wills it....
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Posted by: Ydotheyhateus on Feb 21, 2008 5:42 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"...Islam is murderous by nature. Actually, "Muslim" and "terrorist" are synonymous. Every Muslim is a terrorist, every terrorist a Muslim.
A sceptic might ask: How did it happen that the wonderful Western culture gave birth to the Inquisition, the pogroms, the burning of witches, the annihilation of the Native Americans, the Holocaust, the ethnic cleansings and other atrocities without number--but that was in the past. Now Western culture is the embodiment of freedom and progress.
Professor Huntington was not thinking about us in particular. His task was to satisfy a peculiar American craving: the American empire always needs a virtual, world-embracing enemy, a single enemy which includes all the opponents of the United States around the world. The Communists delivered the goods--the whole world was divided between Good Guys (the Americans and their supporters) and Bad Guys (the Commies). Everybody who opposed American interests was automatically a Communist--Nelson Mandela in South Africa, Salvador Allende in Chile, Fidel Castro in Cuba, while the masters of Apartheid, the death squads of Augusto Pinochet and the secret police of the Shah of Iran belonged, like us, to the Free World.
When the Communist empire collapsed, America was suddenly left without a world-wide enemy. This vacuum has now been filled by the Muslims-Terrorists. Not only Osama bin Laden, but also the Chechnyan freedom fighters, the angry North-African youth of the Paris banlieus, the Iranian Revolutionary Guards, the insurgents in the Philippines.
Thus the American world view rearranged itself: a good world (Western Civilization) and a bad world (Islamic civilization). Diplomats still take care to make a distinction between "radical Islamists" and "moderate Muslims", but that is only for appearances' sake. Between ourselves, we know of course that they are all Osama bin Ladens. They are all the same.
This way, a huge part of the world, composed of manifold and very different countries, and a great religion, with many different and even opposing tendencies (like Christianity, like Judaism), which has given the world unmatched scientific and cultural treasures, is thrown into one and the same pot."
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Posted by: boundjymind on Feb 21, 2008 5:47 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: West is generally much more honest about its history - Muslims are not.
Posted by: daniel1982
» NO... it’s not. AT ALL. You need to get beyond your own skeletons...
Posted by: OrwellMan
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps on Feb 21, 2008 6:12 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the accepted principles or standards of an individual or a group
“Neither did the Khilafah spread Islam by force nor destroy civilizations.”
Sorry, but this just isn’t so.
From the time of the illiterate warlord that was Prophet Mohammad and on to Rashidun and Umayyad Caliphs, to the Ottomans, conquest by empire was the rule not the exception.
All empires conquered their subjects primarily by coercion as in by ancient sword or modern gun not by persuasion (although they still do both). That said, Muslim empire was less bloody than most.
As for the west, “Our Values” are not the values of common folk but the “values” of a parasite corporate criminal class in the west that dictate agendas through an utterly cooked Washington and MSM circus maximus. This is what Einstein called the “ruling class”.
Anyone that knows history beyond the comic book propaganda brand taught at western university level understands this well enough not to be hornswoggled by the usual suspects.
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Posted by: lwbaby on Feb 21, 2008 7:37 PM
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It has always bugged me that when South African apathied was all the focus of rage we acted but we just shrug off women being killed for being raped as *Cultural Differences*.
So yes, our values are better than anyone's who tell women they can't work. Or drive. Or choose who they want to marry. Or submit to genital mutilation. Or get stoned to death for being raped.
Our culture IS superior when it comes to women's rights. No other culture in the world respects women the way we do.
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» RE: I suggest looking in the mirror once in a while
Posted by: yellows
» RE: I suggest looking in the mirror once in a while
Posted by: lwbaby
» RE: I suggest looking in the mirror once in a while
Posted by: yellows
» RE: I suggest looking in the mirror once in a while
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: You do know that Saudi regime exists because of our government, don't you?
Posted by: daniel1982
» Not so much that I'd want to invade them.
Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: You do know that Saudi regime exists because of our government, don't you?
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: If our vlues mean that women can work or drive m.
Posted by: mandiwrite
» RE: If our vlues mean that women can work or drive m.
Posted by: mandiwrite
» RE: If our vlues mean that women can work or drive m.
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: If our vlues mean that women can work or drive m.
Posted by: mandiwrite
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Posted by: Ydotheyhateus on Feb 21, 2008 8:18 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The point is this. Islam, like other religions, distinguishes between legitimate and illegitimate acts of violence.
In fact, Muslims are at least as likely as Americans to condemn targeting civilians as morally wrong. A recent study shows that 46% of Americans think that "bombing and other attacks intentionally aimed at civilians" are "never justified," while 24% believe these attacks are "often or sometimes justified."
Contrast this with data taken the same year from some of the largest majority Muslim nations, where 74% of respondents in Indonesia agreed that terrorist attacks are "never justified"; in Pakistan, that figure was 86%; in Bangladesh, 81% , and in Iran 80%.
But what do Muslims across the world think about extremism and terrorism?
A Gallup study of some 40 majority Muslim countries, "Who Speaks for Islam? What a Billion Muslims Think," reveals that Muslims everywhere are deeply concerned about extremism. Gallup also found that the primary driver for sympathy for terrorism was not piety, but politics.
Similar trends have been identified by other studies on suicide bombers.
The Qur'an does not advocate or condone illegitimate violence or terrorism. The Islamic tradition places extensive limits on the use of violence and rejects terrorism, hijackings, and hostage taking. However, Muslims are permitted, indeed at times required to defend their religion, their families, and the Islamic community from aggression.
Throughout history, given the power of religion to legitimate and inspire, the Quran like the Bible has been interpreted and misinterpreted to justify resistance and liberation struggles, extremism and terrorism, holy and unholy wars. The Qur'an and the Bible contain verses about fighting and warfare. Both their prophets (Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon and Muhammad were also warriors) and scriptures reflect the violent contexts in which their communities developed.
The Quran provides guidelines for conducting war: who is to fight and who is exempted (Quran 48:17, 9:91), when hostilities must stop (Quran 2:192), and how prisoners should be treated (Quran 47:4). Most important, verses such as 2:194 emphasize that warfare and the response to violence and aggression must be proportional: "Whoever transgresses against you, respond in kind." According to Islamic law, for a war to be morally justifiable it must be fought in defense of the faith; cannot be waged primarily for material gain and possession; must respect the rights of non-combatants (lives, freedom, property); must not harm women, children, old people and invalids or torture prisoners of war or demolish places of worship and kill religious leaders.
John L. Esposito is University Professor and Professor of Religion and International Affairs, Georgetown University and author of What Everyone Needs to Know about Islam and Unholy War: Terror in the Name of Islam. He also is founding director of the Prince Alwaleed bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding at Georgetown's Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service
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» RE: Prof. Esposito refutes 'Protocols of the Elders of Islamofascists'
Posted by: daniel1982
» RE: Thank US government for Taliban, Saudi regime, and Iranian mullahs
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: Thank US government for Taliban, Saudi regime, and Iranian mullahs
Posted by: daniel1982
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Posted by: gellero on Feb 22, 2008 6:44 PM
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Indonesia and Malaysia are more secular and don't have that Wahabist 'cut their heads off' mentality, and are capable of making our iPods and other advanced goods, and having a progressive culture. I don't think Islam is the problem, it's the Immams who spout the Wahabist venom. As long as they exist, the Middle East is doomed to a Medieval lifestyle.
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» RE: I'm Waiting.............
Posted by: saltoafronteira
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Posted by: nigelbest on Feb 23, 2008 10:21 AM
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the enemy isnt over there - it's up there
the most powerful have 100,000 times as much moneypower as the average, and 99% of people are below the average - the most powerful are 100,000,000 times more powerful than the world median person
money is power - 90% of people get between 100th and 10,000th of the average pay/hr - 99% get less than the world average pay of US$40/hr [that's the average if you pay all housewives and students in the world as well [who also work]] - the most overpaid get 100,000 times the average pay/hr, 100,000,000 times the world median pay/hr, 1,000,000,000 times the world lowest pay/hr
draw the graph of moneypower and bear it in mind - 0.1mm for the lowest pay, 1cm for the person better paid than 90% of humans, one metre for the average, 100,000 metres for the highest
history is not made, political decisions are not made, national actions are not taken, by the west or the east, but by the most powerful
a person with a billion can hire a million soldiers for 1000 days at $1/day - a person with a billion can hire 100,000 soldiers for 1000 days at $10/day
the enemy is super-super-extreme moneypower inequality
yes, the super-powerful [in west and east] wear sheep's clothing in public - say god is on their side - [god don't say nuttin'] - to fool the slaves, the cannonfodder
if only all the violence was directed towards the 0.00001% most overpaid, overpowerful!
think of people as being of a height in proportion to their moneypower - someone 100,000 times the height of the average, 10,000,000 times the height of the median income - and then rethink history past and present - and future - how much can you care about creatures 10,000,000th of your size? - or about creatures 100,000th of your size? - or even about creatures 100th of your size [the merely very rich]? - the people 100th your size [people with 1000 times the world average income, which is $40/hr - people with $40,000/hr] are just pawns, the 99% of people on below average pay/hr are just invisible dust on the chessboard
these men [hidden behind the public faces of politics, behind presidents and queens] the most heartless, diabolical, inhuman, grasping, cunning, paranoid, acquisitive, mass-murdering, warmongering, cannonfoddering, pleonectic, terrorising, torturing, bullying, brutal, reptilian, self-disguising, duplicitous, arrogant humans - who have got where they are by maximal moneypower monomania, by being more acquisitive than everyone else in the world, who have sometimes come up from mafias and druglordship, are the cause and source of war, crime and the 3000-year growth of weaponry
it is they who own and operate the matrix, use 99.9999% of humans as batteries - $1 billion at 10% doubles every 7 years, multiplies by 1000 every 70 years - money is paper blood
they *use* your identification with your country, your leaders, your gods - your willingness to demonise foreigners - your swallowing of their media rhetoric - they play you like harps - they keep you looking outward for enemies, instead of looking up - they successfully hide 99.99% of their deeds
one person cannot work more than about 10% harder than the average per hour - pay justice is equal pay for equal **work** - no one can work more than 100 hrs x 50 weeks x 50 yrs = 250,000 hrs/lifetime - so the highest *self-earned* lifetime income is *definitely* less than $10 million -
vigilantly effectively limit fortunes to $10 million and you won't have any war, you won't have nuclear extinction racing towards you, you won't have environmental degradation, you won't have a billion offshoot problems, you won't have [continued]
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» RE: Not the West, not Islam - the super-powerful, the matrix operators
Posted by: nigelbest
» RE: Not the West, not Islam - the super-powerful, the matrix operators
Posted by: nigelbest
» RE: Not the West, not Islam - the super-powerful, the matrix operators
Posted by: fleabitn
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Posted by: Kendall41 on Feb 24, 2008 2:30 AM
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Posted by: bobtr900 on Feb 24, 2008 12:02 PM
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» RE: And the Pope...
Posted by: saltoafronteira
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