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How Far Are the Clintons Willing to Go?

By Robert Parry, Consortium News. Posted February 18, 2008.


Hillary has shown she'll do whatever it takes to win, even if that means overriding the majority of voters and skirting campaign finance laws.

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Hillary Clinton, who has built her case for the presidency on her superior "ready on Day One" management skills, burned through almost $130 million of campaign money, had to kick in $5 million from her own murky family funds, and is now pressing her chief financial backers to find creative ways to raise more money.


Some of those financial schemes appear to skirt the law -- as some backers consider putting money into "independent" entities that can spend unlimited sums but aren't supposed to coordinate with the campaign -- while other ideas are more traditional, like appealing to wealthy donors involved with the pro-Israel AIPAC lobby.

Sen. Clinton's new scramble for money -- as well as her campaign's declaration that it is prepared to override the will of the elected Democratic delegates if necessary to secure the nomination -- raise the question of just how far Bill and Hillary Clinton are willing to go to achieve their presidential restoration.

Some Democrats, who have e-mailed me, praise the ruthlessness of the Clinton political machine, arguing that only a readiness to throw sharp elbows can defeat the Republicans this fall. These Democrats hate what they call Barack Obama's "Kumbayah" message of national reconciliation, a reference to the campfire song based on an old African spiritual.

However, other Democrats fear that the Clintons are putting their personal ambitions ahead of what's good for the Party and the country, that they are ready to dirty up Sen. Obama with attack ads and dismiss his millions of supporters as -- what one key Clinton backer called -- "a cult of personality."

If the Clintons overturn the majority will, the Democratic convention in Denver could bring to mind the infamous Chicago convention in 1968 when the Democratic establishment imposed its favored candidate, Vice President Hubert Humphrey, on a rebellious rank-and-file, contributing to the election of Republican Richard Nixon.

Though a repeat of the 1968 violence is unlikely, a Clinton-driven insistence that the will of Democratic voters be cast aside could alienate millions of young people and independents who have rallied to Sen. Obama's message of political change.

In a conference call to reporters last week, Sen. Clinton's communications director, Howard Wolfson, made clear that the campaign was prepared to rely on her superior support among the 796 "superdelegates" -- party insiders and government officials -- to overcome Obama's lead among delegates chosen through primaries and caucuses.

"I want to be clear about the fact that neither campaign is in a position to win this nomination without the support of the votes of the superdelegates," Wolfson said, adding that the Clinton campaign would make no distinction between the caucus/primary delegates and the "superdelegates."



"We are interested in acquiring delegates, period," Wolfson said.

Senior strategist Mark Penn also indicated that the Clinton campaign would press the issue of seating pro-Clinton delegates from Florida and Michigan, where she won unauthorized primaries conducted after the national party barred the states from holding contests before Feb. 5 and after other major candidates agreed not to compete.

The Money Race


The Clinton campaign also is appealing for substantial sums of money to spend on advertisements in upcoming primary states: Texas, Ohio and Pennsylvania.

The Wall Street Journal reported on Feb. 13 that some of Sen. Clinton's top fund-raisers, who have "maxed out" at the individual limit of $2,300 and have tapped out their personal network of donors, are consulting with lawyers about how they can create "independent" groups that can spend unlimited money in support of her campaign.

Susie Tompkins Buell, founder of the Esprit clothing company, was weighing whether to start her own entity for buying ads to promote Clinton or to put money into an existing pro-Clinton organization, like the feminist political organization Emily's List which has already spent about $1 million on Clinton's behalf, the Journal reported.

"We all feel very passionate about it, so the question is, what is the best thing we can do to get her across the finish line?" Buell told the Journal.

The Journal interviewed another Clinton fund-raiser, who declined to be named but who said he might spend $500,000 on pro-Clinton television, radio and newspaper ads.

As the Journal noted, however, "It's not certain that any of the efforts by the Clinton fund-raisers will get off the ground [because] campaign-finance law makes it difficult for campaign insiders to fund independent efforts to elect candidates."

"Independent" campaign initiatives carry both legal and political risks. Not only would a new group have to convince Federal Election Commission lawyers that it is not collaborating with the candidate, the tactic also might remind Democrats of how pro-Republican "independent" organizations, such as Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, attacked -- or "swift-boated" -- Sen. John Kerry's Vietnam War record.

On the other hand, some hyper-partisan Democrats might laud Sen. Clinton for resorting to hardball tactics that have worked for Republicans.

AIPAC Appeal


The Clinton team also was shaking the money trees in more traditional ways.

For instance, campaign finance director Jonathan Mantz met with donors from the American Israel Public Affairs Committee in a Washington hotel lobby when the AIPAC supporters were in town for other business, the Wall Street Journal reported on Feb. 14.

AIPAC wields its legendary influence in Washington, in large part, because of its ability to pour money into cash-strapped political campaigns.

A longtime Democratic operative once recounted an anecdote to explain how AIPAC has amassed its extraordinary clout. He recalled a situation when he was working for a powerful House committee chairman who normally ran unopposed but found himself facing a well-financed Republican challenger.

Unaccustomed to raising large sums of campaign cash, the senior Democrat asked some of his aides to reach out to people they knew. One call was made to AIPAC chief Thomas Dine, who assured the congressman that there was no need to worry.

Suddenly, campaign contributions were pouring in from all over the country, from AIPAC's network of donors. With that one phone call, the congressman's financial problems were solved, assuring both his reelection and his gratitude to AIPAC.

However, given the political sensitivity of the Iraq War -- and AIPAC's perceived support for neoconservative strategies in the Middle East -- many rank-and-file Democrats view the pro-Israel organization with greater suspicion these days.

But the Clinton campaign apparently feels the risk in reaching out to AIPAC is worth the reward.

Sen. Clinton's money scramble also has raised eyebrows about the sources of the Clinton family income. The New York Times' Feb. 15 lead editorial urged Clinton and Sen. John McCain to join Sen. Obama in releasing tax returns that provide details not included in annual congressional disclosure forms.

"The need for greater transparency regarding the income and overall financial dealings of candidates and their spouses was underscored by Mrs. Clinton's recent decision to make a $5 million loan to her campaign," the Times wrote. "The campaign said the money came from her share of the Clintons' joint resources, and that calls attention to the lack of information about their family finances.

"As a former president, Bill Clinton has been making millions annually giving speeches and traveling the globe. What is publicly known about his business dealings is sketchy, and clearer disclosure of them is required to reassure voters that Mrs. Clinton's candidacy is unencumbered by hidden entanglements."

On Feb. 9 at Consortiumnews.com, we published an article that made a similar point, noting that the Clintons have amassed virtually their entire multi-million-dollar fortune (estimated at around $30 million) in the seven years after leaving the White House.

While some of that money is explained from book contracts, the bulk of the family's post-presidential income appears to come from Bill Clinton's lucrative speaking engagements and financial deals with political backers.

The larger campaign question, however, may be whether the Clintons will set any limits on their hunger to return to the White House -- and whether Democrats will view that single-minded determination as a plus or a minus.

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See more stories tagged with: hillary clinton, bill clinton, election 2008

Robert Parry's new book is Secrecy & Privilege: Rise of the Bush Dynasty from Watergate to Iraq."

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Modesty has no place in politics
Posted by: Sojourner on Feb 18, 2008 12:37 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If it weren't for Parry's accusative tone, I might have found the article aimed at examining the very worst dimensions of Clinton's campaign in order to disarm the opposition. But the haughty miss manner's punctiliousness about alleged breaches of etiquette shows Parry aspiring to be opposition. So no defense of the Clintons is required.

When was the last time you heard someone criticized for working as hard as they can to win? That's what we all learned in kindergarten.

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» RE: Modesty has no place in politics Posted by: Moore Hognutz
» Who approves of cheating? Posted by: Sojourner
» what shady things? Posted by: foreverhope
Clinton Repug in Dem clothing
Posted by: RobNLA on Feb 18, 2008 1:25 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What really is the difference between a Republican and Hillary? She's pro-war, in the pocket of the Israel lobby. Is willing to pull dirty tricks to get elected. Thinks it is ok to suppress votes that don't support her. And the list goes on.

This is why many Dems simply won't vote for her. If she does steal the nomination, then she'll lose in the general election.

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» RE: Clinton Repug in Dem clothing Posted by: monkeywrench
» Ahh, so you support corruption Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» RE: Clinton Repug PLUS! Posted by: TarryFaster
» RE: Clinton Repug PLUS! Posted by: Bec59
» Surprised by your hatered Posted by: pierrot
» RE: Clinton Repug in Dem clothing Posted by: fringedweller
Compare with weekend Obama headline
Posted by: anothername on Feb 18, 2008 1:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The headline for the weekend Obama piece on AlterNet asked if Obama was an emotional escape from the Bush years. Today's headline on Clinton is all about doing anything to win. I refuse to lose hope for balanced journalism and reporting but I sure would like to have some evidence of change towards that goal.

While it takes repetitive articles to get messages embedded in minds, I cannot but wonder what issues are happening in the environment, consumer protection, small business support, and numerous other areas that are not being covered in the media.

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Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
» RE: The Shuster Affair Posted by: davescott
One more thought:
Posted by: Tom Degan on Feb 18, 2008 2:26 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some high placed Democrats are hinting that the nomination will be denied to Obama even if he wins the primaries via the so-called "Super Delegate" process.

NOTE TO THE DEMS:
If you even attempt to do that, it's all over. Your base will bolt the party so fast you won't even know what hit you. Think I'm kidding?

Tom Degan

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Or a non-viable one! Posted by: improperly_sedated
» RE: Or a non-viable one! Posted by: nochicagoboys
» Sure I would ... Posted by: skoog5600
» RE: Sure I would ... Posted by: nochicagoboys
» And George W won the 2000 election Posted by: anothername
» Theft?! Posted by: Sparks56
» RE: Theft?! Hillary-ous!!! Posted by: seacaptdon
» Sorry...but... Posted by: Steve Adair
» RE: Sorry...but... Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Sorry...but... Posted by: improperly_sedated
» RE: Sorry...but... Posted by: Steve Adair
» RE: Sorry...but... Posted by: improperly_sedated
» RE: Sorry...but... Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: One more thought: Posted by: marxalot
» RE: One more thought: Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: One more thought: Posted by: Bec59
» spam spam spam spam Posted by: improperly_sedated
» RE: One more thought: Posted by: Quannah
» RE: One more thought: Posted by: liberalibrarian
» liberalibrarian: Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: liberalibrarian: Posted by: liberalibrarian
» RE: One more thought: Posted by: maggzilla
Terrorist
Posted by: HeKnew on Feb 18, 2008 3:22 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Direct Primaries!

Direct Elections!

Direct Democracy!

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Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
Bad Article
Posted by: bikerdude on Feb 18, 2008 3:22 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This accusatory article is more anti-Clinton blather. I don't know why you would publish such tripe. They are intelligent, competent and feel they can help America. Agressive? Yes. Wrong? No. Wait until you see that Republican slime machine in gear! Lets report on truth and facts and leave this innuendo crap for the likes of Matthews or Faux News.

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» RE: Bad Faith, Sad Truth Posted by: gazooks
Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
» Republican Rooted Posted by: joseph_b26
» agree Posted by: happyhermit
» RE: Bad Article Posted by: davescott
» RE: Bad Article Posted by: rickiey
» RE: Bad Article Posted by: seacaptdon
Lust for power
Posted by: Democritus on Feb 18, 2008 3:35 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nowhere does Lord Acton's famous phrase ring truer than when applied to the Clintons. But not only does power corrupt, it's addictive. You would think that Bill Clinton would be happy to ride off into the sunset on his book deals and lecture appearances. But no, there he is pushing his wife toward the presidential nomination with the power of the Democratic machine behind him. And you know that if Hillary is elected, he will help her call the shots.

There are doubtless those who think that's a good thing. I don't. Bill Clinton's march to the right when pushed by the Gingrich Republicans might have suited the times, but that time is past. We can't go any farther right without becoming a fascist state. (Some would think we're already there.) With Hillary we'd get no repeal of NAFTA, a lukewarm health-care proposal, a continuing but nuanced "war against terror," and no action to get Israel to come to terms with the Palestinians--especiallly if AIPAC becomes her big contributor.

Mrs. Clinton might continue to be an effective Senator from New York. Why she seems insistent on thwarting the ambitions of the democratic wing of the Democratic Party at all costs defies rational explanation.

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» RE: Lust for power Posted by: Bec59
» RE: Lust for power Posted by: C-Dawg Blake
» RE: Lust for power Posted by: Bec59
» RE: Lust for power - Bec? Posted by: foreverhope
» RE: Lust for power Posted by: GPFrank
johncp
Posted by: johnp on Feb 18, 2008 3:42 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Can there be anything more stupid than the accusation, that Hillary "will do anything to win?" The imbecility, the craven hypocrisy, and bullshit of this charge cannot be overstated. Is it really necessary to make it clear that any candidate will do anything to win? I can't believe it's necessary to say this. If anyone wants to see extremes operating here, look to the buffoon that wrote this essay against Hillary. I cannot find words to express how I despise these cowardly Hillary-haters. If you want to see the worst extremes, ask yourself if mainstream media will not do anything and say anything to destroy Hillary's campaign. Media are beneath contempt. Mainstream media have descended below the toilet, to the sewer. The stammering, senile, coward, Wolf Blitzer daily, spits his bile at Hillary, but hides from any possible criticism in response to his filth. The mere existence of creeps like Chris Matthews, Tim Russert and all the other despicable
gasbags on the boob tube, make me shiver with shame and contempt for my gender.

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» RE: johncp Posted by: Democritus
Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
» RE: johncp Posted by: C-Dawg Blake
» RE: johncp Posted by: Bec59
» RE: johncp Posted by: rickiey
Her very candidacy
Posted by: Blink on Feb 18, 2008 3:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
goes against the spirit of the 22nd Amendment. At the very least, can't Bill just shut up and let her give the appearance of running on her own rather than constantly reminding everyone that he's part of the package?

Besides...why vote for Clinton when there is such an attractive alternative --a candidate who will help us achieve Change through the power of Hope.

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» RE: Her very candidacy Posted by: Bec59
» Uh...yeah. Posted by: Blink
» RE: Her very candidacy Posted by: davescott
» Nonsense Posted by: improperly_sedated
» RE: Nonsense Posted by: davescott
» End of debate?!? Posted by: improperly_sedated
» RE: Nonsense Posted by: seacaptdon
» RE: Her very candidacy Posted by: Sparks56
» No kidding Posted by: Blink
» RE: Her very candidacy Posted by: foreverhope
» RE: Her very candidacy Posted by: Sparks56
» Sparks, you are right about LBJ... Posted by: foreverhope
too bad that Hillary can't use her best argument against Obama: the election of Tony Blair in 1997
Posted by: Suzon on Feb 18, 2008 4:03 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
changed nothing. In fact, Blair turned out to be more Thatcherite than Thatcher herself. There was plenty of hope when John Major was turfed out of 10 Downing Street, but the hope was followed by ten years of bitter disappointment.

But the Clintons and the Blairs were too cozy for Hillary to be able to distance herself. She would have to have a brain transplant before I would even consider voting for her. Why not have a properly labeled Republican in the White House? As a friend of mine who grew up in Spain but moved to England said, "At least in Spain under Franco, we knew we were living in a dictatorship!"

Does anyone believe that she has a snowball's chance anyway? The excitement about a possible woman or black president whipped up by the corporate media will evaporate if either one is chosen.

Could the delegates be smart enough to realise that both Clinton and Obama would be demolished by the same powerful forces that created them as the only possible candidates?

Can the delegates wake up and realize that the candidate which would both confound the corporate king-makers and excite the electorate would be John Edwards?

What is the worst that can be said of him? Giving a hairdresser 400 bucks is not in the same league as taking big money from Big Pharma. And having once worked for a hedge fund? How about having quit working for it? Having built a big family home? What would you rather he had done with his money? And he is not a war enthusiast.

Edwards seems to be not only an intelligent man, but one capable of learning. Draft John Edwards!

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Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
» Edwards B.S. again Posted by: freedomlover
» RE: dwards B.S. again Posted by: foreverhope
uh...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Feb 18, 2008 4:42 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Its not HILLARY willing to override what the people want. Well, sure, she will... but more fundamentally it is the DEMOCRATIC PARTY that is so willing to do it for Hillary.

If she gets the nomination it will be because of superdelegates. Between the superdelegates, the media jiggering of who actually gets face time and soundbites to determine who is a "frontrunner", the system of giving entire states to candidates, and the electoral college it becomes obvious that we get to pick between the two candidates that corporate america approves of... and Hillary is obviously the one they want for the Dems this time around. What the people want be damned.

If Hillary gets the nomination then you no longer have legitimate elections... not that you really have them even if she doesn't get it. But at that point they would not only be illigitimate, but also outright fixed.

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» RE: uh... Posted by: foreverhope
In the southern part of Texas, near the town of San Antone
Posted by: solrev on Feb 18, 2008 4:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Clinton has the support of the old demon party and they are dying for the chance to make her the nominee without destroying any chance to win the election. Ohio will have little meaning because independents can vote and independents choose Obama, Clintonites will write it off as those dam independents if Clinton loses. Pennsylvania is a little bit more clouded it appears that independents are switching their registration. Texas is the key, only demons can vote in their primary, and Texas has with a large Latino population and a large women population. If Obama can make strides in these two groups and beat Clinton, the demons will have spoken and the old party masters will have to switch their support to Obama. If Obama does not beat or split Texas, the good old boys may railroad Clinton in, and lose the election. The independents will revolt against the demons along with the youth vote. Do you think that is really the plan of the puppet masters? In any case the game ends at the Alamo.

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» "Latinas" Mexican-American Women Posted by: DigitalAztec
Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
What if it's a dead heat at the convention?
Posted by: brunowe on Feb 18, 2008 5:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For example, neither has enough delegates and their delegate totals are virtually tied. This article makes much of opposing the will of Democratic primary voters but what if the vote totals are close. One letter to the NYTimes suggested that, if the delegate counts are within 5% of each other, that the superdelegates should act at their discretion.

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» superdelegates. Posted by: foreverhope
Interesting Analysis on Administrative Skills of top three Candidates
Posted by: Prairie Waif on Feb 18, 2008 5:04 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This weekend on one of my Sunday Morning News Programs (Washington Week with Gwen Ifill? My neighbor, Tyler stopped by to grab coffee . . . ), a very intersting point was discussed.

WHO has best managed their CAMPAIGN from getting out their grassroots supporters to spread the news to MOST IMPORTANTLY managing the hundreds of millions of Dollars in their campaign "War Chest?"

ANSWER?
Hillary had to provide a $5 Million Personal loan and, even at that, staffers agreed to work without pay.

John McCain was on a toddler's shoestring budget prior to appearing to becoming the RNC Candidate.

Winner of best administrator of a large multi-state, no rules, react as necessary and with panache?

BARACK OBAMA

That isn't bashing McCain or HIllarry, that was the truth. Hmmm..It hadn't even crossed my mind until the discussion came up on the program.

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Rebecca from OHIO
Posted by: Bec59 on Feb 18, 2008 5:33 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hey America! Listen up! Before you go to the polls, bone up on the opposition research that will be coming out as soon as we Democrats pick our nominee-

The Repubs are being nice and quiet about Obama for a big reason. They think Hillary can win the main election, sooo, they are praying that Obama gets the nomination---then the proverbial sh*t will hit the fan hard--all us democrats will be very disenheartened, dispirited----

The die-hard Obama fans will "stay the course" because they will not swallow their pride in their pick, but, the Independents and less disillusioned will jump off the burning band wagon---go to "No Quarter" Larry Johnson "No He Can't Because, Yes, They Will"--google it--read just some of the true stories that are waiting in the wings concerning Obama---not good at all. We need a capable winner. Let's not putz around anymore!

Get thee behind Hillary!

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» RE: ebecca from OHIO Posted by: Bec59
Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
» RE: ebecca from OHIO Posted by: Bec59
» RE: ebecca from OHIO - lol, nervy Posted by: foreverhope
» RE: ebecca from OHIO Posted by: nicR
» RE: ebecca from OHIO Posted by: pizzmoe
» Logic impaired Posted by: improperly_sedated
» Agreed! Posted by: Sparks56
Alternet's anti-Hillary bias
Posted by: BeckySharp on Feb 18, 2008 5:39 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm resigning from Alternet because of it's persistent anti-Hillary bias. Mitt Romney wasn't criticized for funding his own campaign. Nor was John Kerry for dipping into his wife's deep pockets. We need more critique of the issues, not tactics, which every candidate who succeeds pushes to the limit. Sorry,otherwise, I have appreciated Alternet. But I take this personally.

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» RE: Alternet's anti-Hillary bias Posted by: joseph_b26
superdelegates
Posted by: davescott on Feb 18, 2008 5:42 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Obama has a substantial lead in pledged delegates, I believe Clinton will withdraw. If it is close, she has every reason to pursue superdelegates. If the superdelegates are meant to mindlessly split by the same proportion as the primary delegates, there is no reason for them to exist at all. Obama's overall popular vote barely exceeds Clinton's. The spinning gets tiresome.

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» RE: superdelegates Posted by: jontv
Saint Barack vs the Evil Hillary
Posted by: davescott on Feb 18, 2008 5:46 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Saint Barack vs the Evil Hillary narrative is more than a bit tiresome. As NBC reported, Obama's bill to require reporting of nuclear leaks turned into a pathetically weak request to the NRC to "consider" rules. Exelon employees, the affected party, have been leading contributors.

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oh what sexist horseshit
Posted by: davescott on Feb 18, 2008 5:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
a spouse can't run? a yale law graduate shouldnt run?

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» RE: oh what sexist horseshit Posted by: davescott
The convention is in August. It's February.
Posted by: davescott on Feb 18, 2008 5:57 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's a little early to be getting too excited about some overheated "stolen nomination" scenario. Can we at least let Texas and Ohio vote first?

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offensive comments online
Posted by: bbfmail on Feb 18, 2008 6:11 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You allowed this post:

"Here is an absolute certainty:
Hillary Clinton would "pimp" Chelsea off on the corner of Tenth Avenue and Thirtieth Street at five bucks a shot if she thought it would get her the nomination."

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY

####

I find this very inappropriate and do not know why Alternet allows comments like this to remain online. Your feedback to report inappropriate comments is NOT working.

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» RE: offensive comments online Posted by: Tom Degan
Snatching Defeat from the jaws of victory
Posted by: jebpgh on Feb 18, 2008 6:22 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Parry's comments were to the point. You don't have to be a solid Obama supporter to have the same sentiments about the Clintons and their organization. The "right wing conspiracy" did, much to our dismay, get a lot of things right included the people that the Clintons would surround themselves with. But the most disturbing connection is - and always will be for me - AIPAC. With the Clintons in the WH (and yes, it is the Clintons who will be running things not Hillary folks) AIPCA will once again have a good friend - even better than the last one. This lobby was a leader during the Clinton years in selling the path to war in Iraq. It will be there selling the path to war in Iran. Count on it.

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Skeptical...
Posted by: gquigley on Feb 18, 2008 6:24 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Parry writes, "the infamous Chicago convention in 1968 when the Democratic establishment imposed its favored candidate, Vice President Hubert Humphrey..."

I try to remember who else there was in 1968 who might have better represented the will of the country...but I can't. The bone of contention wasn't so much the nominee as it was the party platform. After RFK was shot, hope went off in all different directions and the fragmentation of the party was clearly the disabling factor; the term anarchy comes to mind. It was a time of national discontent which hasn't yet been revisited.

Humphrey was a decent man, would have been a lot better President than Nixon was, and if he'd been elected because of the 'Democratic establishment', history would look favorably on their 'imposition'.

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Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
» RE: Skeptical... Posted by: jebpgh
» RE: Skeptical... Posted by: anninroosevelt
no presidential dynasties!
Posted by: zooeyhall on Feb 18, 2008 6:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The office of President of the United States should not become a dynastic institution!

Just my two cents.

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Jaws of Victory (Part Two)
Posted by: jebpgh on Feb 18, 2008 6:31 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My other comment is quite simple - the reason that Hillary is so "tested" is because there was so much to "test" her on. If she is successful in obtaining the nomination, the Dems will lose in November -- McCain will draw away the independents and even some Dems. The Clintons will have to account for how they have become multi-millionaires in a short seven year time and they simply will fall apart. Further, the voters will ultimately reject the "co-presidency" which the GOP will pound mercilessly during the general election. McCain, who is ultimately a true nut job will win - even taking some blue states and the Dems can mull over what they should do about it four years from now.

The Clintons lost Democratic control of the House and the Senate, they ruined the opportunity to move to national health insurance, left thousands of welfare families without a life-line, they shoved NAFTA down our throats and cost us millions of good manufacturing jobs sacrificed on the altar of "globalism". They embarrased the nation with Bill's inability to control his sexual urges when the fate of the nation was absolutely on the line, sucked down dozens of loyal supporters along the way and wasted the last four years of his administration in needless controversy. Do we really want to go through this all over again? I'll pass.

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» RE: Jaws of Victory (Part Two) Posted by: maggzilla
Hillary
Posted by: Gail Kerr on Feb 18, 2008 6:33 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
give me a break!! No other candidate is scrutinized, criticized, and/or "wolf-packed" like she is!! Even the fact that her husband is campaigning for her has brought criticism!!! Since when is a spouse to hold back from expressing his/her views? ONLY when it is Hillary and Bill!!! They must really intimidate some people in some pretty high places to incur this hate...kinda makes one want to vote for her all the more!!!!

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» RE: Hillary Posted by: jebpgh
» RE: Hillary Posted by: Bec59
» RE: Hillary Posted by: Bec59
» RE: Hillary Posted by: mclemens
» RE: Hillary Posted by: rickiey
The Bottom Line: Hillary Can Lose
Posted by: Deleuzer on Feb 18, 2008 6:39 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After fifteen years of watching this woman suffer the politics of gender, I must say, I respect Hillary Clinton. She's faced the worst sort of patriarchal demagoguery imaginable and has come out the other side as a viable democratic candidate. However, she can lose. I have been consistently shocked and appalled, but also sobered by how openly (both dems and reps) will say the phrase, "I hate Hillary."

The fact that people openly hate her does not bode well for a general election. McCain can beat a candidate people hate. McCain has the ability to pull democrats to his camp. McCain could beat Hillary. He has no chance to beat Obama.

I am of the anything but a republican camp. Obama guarantees that. The Dems should try to remember the last election. Kerry was the only guy who Bush could beat, so that's who they backed. How about this time they back the one candidate who cannot lose.

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» RE: The Bottom Line: Hillary Can Win Posted by: left_libertarian
Clintons' Ruthless Depravity Knows No Bounds
Posted by: mrtshw on Feb 18, 2008 7:06 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a life-long Arkansan for 64 years ..and counting, thankfully... I voted for Bill Clinton at every opportunity here in Arkansas and in 1992 and 1996. It was only after Bill's shameless sell out to the GOP during his presidency, repeating patterns of his duplicity and even depravity during his Arkansas years, sociopathy covered up by an enabling media which went far beyond his sexual addictions.
I deeply regret I did not explore the Clintons more diligently thirty years ago as I would have uncovered their obvious self-serving hypocrisy,their ruthless ambitions that fully include Hillary as I'm certain Bill and Hillary have been so symbiotically attached since the earliest days of their relationship,
she has been fully aware of and shared in all of Bill's most egriegious decisions since DAY ONE. Those decisions include Bill's politically expedient condoning of the world-wide marketing of aids/hepatitis-tainted blood drawn from Arkansas' prison inmates which continued unabated throughout Bill's 12 year gubernatorial reign (www.factor8movie.com); his turning a blind eye to the 1987 Janie Ward death case investigation, still unsolved despite the primary murder suspect's being the daughter of a still prominent Circuit Judge(Yahoo/Google Janie Ward ); ditto for the 1989 deaths of Kevin Ives and Don Henry likely committed by politically connected figures who have sinced been convicted of other non-related felonies (Yahoo/Google 'The Boys on the Tracks/Mara Leveritt ).
After Bill Clinton's upset defeat by Witt/Warren Stephen's backed GOP investment banker, Frank White,in 1980 following Bill's initial term as Governor; he and Hillary defeated White in 1982 by forever forswearing their ideals and totally allying with Arkansas' Corporate/Moneyed interests; Hillary accepting a lucrative seat on the Board of Wal Mart, Inc.. The Clintons never again challenged the gross pollution practices of the Tysons' controlled Poultry Industry, the Stephens, Family Financial and Newspaper Imperialism, the Waltons' gross employment/marketing/vendor bullying, Arkansas'incredibly inequitable regressive taxation policy in Arkansas, the blatant racism extant in every fiber of Arkansas' cultural fabric. Any serious examination of the Clinton Arkansas years should derail Hillary's ambitions if America were still a
just society.

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To Mr. Robert Parry: You say -
Posted by: NotNeoCon on Feb 18, 2008 7:23 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Hillary Clinton, who has built her case for the presidency on her superior "ready on Day One" management skills, burned through almost $130 million of campaign money, had to kick in $5 million from her own murky family funds, and is now pressing her chief financial backers to find creative ways to raise more money."

I say to you in the strongest terms I'm allowed on the Internet - You, Sir, are full of GD Shit!

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Grating Voice
Posted by: dockboy on Feb 18, 2008 7:35 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't want her, if for nothing else, that irratatingly grating voice.

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» RE: Grating Voice Posted by: improperly_sedated
» ROFLMAO!!!! BRILLIANT! Posted by: foreverhope
» RE: Grating Voice Posted by: pizzmoe
Well you've changed MY MIND. I'm voting for Hillary.
Posted by: weslen1 on Feb 18, 2008 7:38 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm REALLY SICK of hearing all you "talking heads" running Hillary into the ground. Obama gets a free pass even though he's the one who started the dirty tricks in the first place. "Hillary's too ambitious. Of course HE'S not.Hillary wants to win TOO MUCH. Of course HE doesn't. He'd be perfectly happy to LOSE so long as SHE doesn't win. LOL
Now we're being told if Obama loses there will be RIOTS and all kinds of HELL to pay. Has Obama denounced all that BS? NO. He REVELS in it.
You forget that the super delegates have just as much RIGHT to vote as they choose as YOU or I do and there's the Michigan and Florida delegates Hillary won fair and square that she deserves. Obama CHOSE to take his name off of those ballots, no one FORCED him to.
He also doesn't deserve to win JUST BECAUSE HIS WIFE WON'T LET HIM RUN AGAIN. Who cares about HER? That comment she made about Hillary not being able to "Run her OWN household" smacks of someone who HERSELF some time before she latched on to her "money man" was "the other woman" in some other wife's marriage. Blaming the WIFE for her husband's mistakes is what the other woman always DOES. And then she stands up there all "Holier Than Thou" saying it COULD NEVER HAPPEN TO HER. That's NOT a foregone conclusion.
Just because the Main Stream Media and almost ALL the talking heads have annointed Obama as their winner because they want to referee the fight between him and McCain, doesn't mean they are RIGHT. They SELDOM are. If they had given the others a fair chance to be heard, I would have stuck with Kucinich. Hillary and Obama are two of a kind and I don't trust either one of them to care one bit about poor, disabled, elderly OR poor children in this country. Obama's been privileged from the day he was born, RICH and privileged. The Clintons were reviled from day one of Bill's presidency BECAUSE they weren't considered to be in the same league with the RICH Ivy League congress persons who spent 6 years trying to get rid of him early.
Martin Luther King Jr. KNEW what it meant to be poor in this country. Obama hasn't a CLUE. Hillary, at least knows more about being poor than he does, has at least cared enough to find out and has been fighting for the poor nearly her whole life. All Obama wants to do and all he does is repeat Republican talking points about Social Security. He probably wants to let Medicaid "Wither on the vine" as Gingrich wanted by underfunding it til it's dead. So go ahead and hold your riots. I PRAY Hillary wins. Talking Heads be Damned.

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What to think; what to say?
Posted by: willymack on Feb 18, 2008 7:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, rove and his ratpack is apparently ALREADY doing its dirty work, setting us one against another yet again. It seems we haven't learned our lesson from the 2000 & 2004, those shameful debacles which have spawned so much death and destruction. This is far worse than small-minded, mean- spirited backyard, bad mouthing, folks; we're dealing with the future of our nation, and if we don't create an overwhelming consensus and express it in the 2008 election, it'll be SOS and the final straw which breaks the back of our country. The views of both Clinton and Obama have been made crystal clear,and aren't really that far apart. The fact is that those views and goals are far more humane and compassionate than anything the maniacs on the other side are blathering about. They've had their chance, and have used it to rob us blind and kill and maim a lot of people in the process. Putting an end to the mess they created is (or SHOULD be) priority one. If we're looking for perfection in Clinton or Obama it'll be a fool's errand. Take a look in the mirror and see if you observe perfection THERE.. Keep this in mind come election day and forget all the hateful, and untrue vitriol the rethugs are trying to ram down our throats. Keep in mind they WANT us divided so as to create as much a division and as emotional a mob as they can. If this "race" is close as it was in "00 & "04, then we're screwed. In '04, both Florida AND Ohio were rigged, and that's all it took to steal that "election". I don't see anything different in those states, do you? As I said, only an overwhelming plurality of votes nationwide can overcome what is almost certain to be yet another fradulent theft of the White House. Stirring us up and setting us against each other is part of the fraud. Don't let the rat bastards get away with it again, and quit your damn bellyachin'.

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How Far Is Bec59 Willing to Go?
Posted by: C-Dawg Blake on Feb 18, 2008 8:05 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm betting she will break the magical three-figures mark for cut-and-paste, last set by the legendary Elmer of Elmer's glue. (I plead with you: Don't google it.)

Does this masquerade as discourse? Plato is spinning like a top.

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» RE: How Far Is Bec59 Willing to Go? Posted by: Joshua Holland
Unbalanced Coverage
Posted by: Southern Gal on Feb 18, 2008 8:12 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with other posters on Alternet that the coverage of Hillary and Obama has not been balanced. There has been little said about issues and much emotional attacking of Hillary. I am a woman and it makes me angry for people to impose standards on Hillary that they don't apply to Obama as presidential candidates and the "pimping" comments about Chelsea are repulsive. Okay Alternet, why not a breakdown of different progressive issues and a sharing of candidates' words and positions regarding the issues? That would be more helpful to me than this current approach to coverage of the candidates on Alternet. I'm partly to blame here because I impose standards on Alternet that I don't impose on commercial media. I expect emotion and cheap shots from the commercial media. I thought that Alternet was a source for good information that I can rely on and can't get through other media. I'm still waiting and hoping for that factual coverage of issues and positions regarding the two candidates. I am a supporter of Kucinich and
Edwards and I still have not made up my mind about Hillary and Obama.

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» RE: Unbalanced Coverage Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Unbalanced Coverage Posted by: davescott
She'll be a fine Republican Pres
Posted by: RegK on Feb 18, 2008 8:30 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hillary will be just as good a Republican president as Bill was (according to Alan Greenspan, who should know). The monarchy stuff has to stop in this country, too.

The bottom line is that the Democratic party is supposed to be democratic--not have these uber-delegates standing by to undo what the ordinary folks have done. The ubers should vote according to the proportional distribution established by the caucuses and primaries. If they cave to Clinton it will be an utter disgrace to the party--and I'll question my own membership, which goes back 6 generations!

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Hillary represents
Posted by: Quannah on Feb 18, 2008 8:45 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
everything about "old politics." The Party Machine, the Back-Room deals, the regular big donors, the dirty politics. I think after these past seven years, people have had a belly-full of "business as usual." Obama may not be the perfect candidate (and I am not a big supporter of either Clinton or Obama), but there is something a little different about how he is playing this election. Perhaps it's superficial window-dressing. Perhaps it's really the same down beneath the surface. But it appears to be different. And people are ready for "different." And for me, one of the big things is this war. I think he will get us out. I think she will find reasons to keep us there in some capacity. She does, after all, have unquestioning support for Israel, and they want us there so we can bail them out when they need it.

Clinton is in trouble. Her campaign staff is a mess. There is no cohesive message. She keeps trying to re-invent herself in Obama's image and it only makes her look more insincere than she looked before. She's not bringing in the money. She has Bill and his gaffes to contend with. She's running scared and it is obvious.

There may not be a dime's worth of difference between the two Democratic candidates policy-wise, but Obama's persona is a breath of fresh air in an otherwise stale contest.

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I THOUGHT EVERYONE WANTED "CHANGE"
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Feb 18, 2008 8:50 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We've got the most lively campaign and biggest turnout of voters in ages and it's not good enough. Obama and Clinton have brought this country back to life. For that we should be grateful. We are no longer on the sidelines watching the parade of Republicans go by telling us to shut up. The Presidency is well worth fighting for. Nobody should be able to sneak into office the way Bush did, ever again. That alone is "Change". I'll take it. Thanks, ANNA

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» Supercollider!!! Posted by: EJW
there's a good reason
Posted by: liberalibrarian on Feb 18, 2008 9:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
..to vote or not vote for a person. Not. I would like for Obama to quit pointing at me, but that's just me...

I will get behind the Democrat who wins the Primary. Period. And superdeligates are placed in the system for tie breaking like we have.

Until another system is securely in place, it's what we have, folks. We need to take one step at a time or we will not get anywhere.

The journey begins with the first step.

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» RE: there's a good reason Posted by: liberalibrarian
WARNING !!! WARNING !!! THE REAL GOP BOMB THAT WILL DESTROY OBAMA'S PRESIDENTIAL RUN !!!!
Posted by: maxpayne on Feb 18, 2008 9:26 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No, He Can’t Because Yes, They Will

Like Hillary, Obama's just as controversial and the GOP WILL SWIFTBOAT HIM in the worst way that John Kerry and even Dukakis will look like they got mildly attacked. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED !

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Hilary - Do US a Favor a Quit Now
Posted by: lleavitt on Feb 18, 2008 9:31 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
She's mismanaged her campaign on so many levels and now selling out to the folks who want to keep us in Iraq forever?

Why would we want Lady MacBeth for president?

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Yes we can. Obama Should Run As Independent If Denied The Dem Nomination
Posted by: aamer923 on Feb 18, 2008 9:33 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Corrupt party loyalties should not be allowed to suppress this movement. He represents a movement . He is well financed. Yes we can.

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Hopefully as far as it takes to keep that phony Judas Goat out of the Presidency
Posted by: xbj on Feb 18, 2008 9:34 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yeah, that fake Democrat with all the big GOP backing and GOP pundit lovefest, Obama.

He wins the nomination, I'm voting for McCain. I'd rather vote for an asshole insane geezer warmonger who lets you know EXACTLY where he's really coming from, than a fake Democrat spoiler backed by big GOP money who thinks sucking up to the NaziGOP is the ticket to Nirvana. And that's just about the nicest thing I can say about the arrogant, pumped up clueless tried and true GOP idiot. Yes, THAT Obama.

I mean it. I'm going to have a hard enough time if Hillary picks him for her Veep as it is.

Insane McCain, welcome to the Oval Office. The button is right... over.... here.....!

Obama can't win, and I'll cast my vote to prove it.

So all you Hillary haters on THIS side of the fence can just kiss my ass. And pray you fail. BIGTIME.

The Obama Backlash. A mighty wind, and it is a-comin'.

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The ClintonS
Posted by: motamanx on Feb 18, 2008 9:39 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...have had their shot. And it was a pretty good shot-- until the stained dress on the intern. And the questionable pardons at the end.

If Hillary is as smart as she says she is, she would bow out of it for the good of the country and the Democratic party. She will lose to McCain.
There is simply too much baggage of her own making.

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» RE: The ClintonS Posted by: davescott
Thx bec for this "larry c johnson"
Posted by: johnclark on Feb 18, 2008 9:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But who is Larry C. Johnson?

Larry C. Johnson is CEO and co-founder of BERG Associates, LLC, an
international business-consulting firm with expertise combating
terrorism and investigating money laundering. Mr. Johnson works with
US military commands in scripting terrorism exercises, briefs on
terrorist trends, and conducts undercover investigations on
counterfeiting, smuggling and money laundering.

Mr. Johnson, who worked previously with the Central Intelligence
Agency and U.S. State Department’s Office of Counter Terrorism, is a
recognized expert in the fields of terrorism, aviation security,
crisis and risk management.

Mr. Johnson has analyzed terrorist incidents for a variety of media
including the Jim Lehrer News Hour, National Public Radio, ABC’s
Nightline, NBC’s Today Show, the New York Times, CNN, Fox News, and
the BBC. Mr. Johnson has authored several articles for publications,
including Security Management Magazine, the New York Times, and The
Los Angeles Times. He has lectured on terrorism and aviation security
around the world, including the Center for Research and Strategic
Studies at the Ecole Polytechnique in Paris, France. He represented
the U.S. Government at the July 1996 OSCE Terrorism Conference in
Vienna, Austria.

From 1989 until October 1993, Larry Johnson served as a Deputy
Director in the U.S. State Department’s Office of Counter Terrorism.
He managed crisis response operations for terrorist incidents
throughout the world and he helped organize and direct the US
Government’s debriefing of US citizens held in Kuwait and Iraq, which
provided vital intelligence on Iraqi operations following the 1990
invasion of Kuwait. Mr. Johnson also participated in the investigation
of the terrorist bombing of Pan Am 103. Under Mr. Johnson’s leadership
the U.S. airlines and pilots agreed to match the US Government’s two
million-dollar reward.

From 1985 through September 1989 Mr. Johnson worked for the Central
Intelligence Agency. During his distinguished career, he received
training in paramilitary operations, worked in the Directorate of
Operations, served in the CIA’s Operation’s Center, and established
himself as a prolific analyst in the Directorate of Intelligence. In
his final year with the CIA he received two Exceptional Performance
Awards.

Mr. Johnson is a member of the American Society for Industrial Security. He taught at The American University’s School of International Service (1979-1983) while working on a Ph.D. in political science. He has a M.S. degree in Community Development from the University of Missouri (1978), where he also received his B.S. degree in Sociology, graduating Cum Laude and Phi Beta Kappa in 1976.

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» Yes, Obama is prepared Posted by: foreverhope
Wanting to Win??
Posted by: tooltimetim on Feb 18, 2008 9:52 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course Hillary wants to win, just as Obama wants to win as well and going as far as they can to win is what each candidate is doing...isn't that why they call it a race...

At least we (The Dems) haven't resorted to tampering with voting machines or disenfranchising voters...

As far as super delegates...if you don't like the system.. vote for folks who are willing to represent your true wants and desires and change the way the system works.....


I am so tired of the Hillary bashing morons who are obviously intimidated by her strenghth and determination to become our next president. Of course i should expect that our media would be against a woman, after all most of it is owned by a man that is not even a US citizen....

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Clinton bashing
Posted by: Olivias Oma on Feb 18, 2008 10:04 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That does it, I'm so sick of Clinton bashing that I'm now unsubscribing from AlterNet,since it has joined the mass-media.I've known the Clintons for years(since he was Gov in AR., and a good neighbor), and they are good people.

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» RE: Clinton bashing Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: Clinton bashing Posted by: rickiey
Hillary = Ambition without integrity = dangerous combination
Posted by: seacaptdon on Feb 18, 2008 10:05 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some time back, while Hillary Clinton was the front runner and mot of the media was singing her praises and ignoring her faults, I remember reading one comment from someone who said (paraphrased) "The problem with Hilliary Clinton is not that she is ambitious, but that she had ambition without integrity." We have already had 7+ years of a President who skirts the law and ignores it when he does not like it, do we really need another President who has this same moral value? Just a thought...

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They voted in Hindenburg as the lesser evil and got . . . Guess Who?
Posted by: mclemens on Feb 18, 2008 10:07 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For me, one of the most vital contributions of late 60s-early 70s feminism was the aphorism “The personal is political.” Lately, it seems, political ramifications of personal expressions of partisanship among us lefties seem to be fueling the same kind of craw-thumping distraction which has the right wing of this country squabbling over whether focusing on human rights for blastocysts should trump tax cuts for the most privileged 1%.

The Clintons have a long record now of talking populist/progressive to win support and then acting elitist/reactionary with accession to power. I think that’s the real beef a lot of progressives have with Hillary: we remember the bombing of Kosovo and Somalia; 500,000 Iraqi children dead due to a decade of sanctions; NAFTA; “the end of Welfare as we know it;” the 1996 telecommunications bill that set the stage for the monolithic merger of MSM; the crime bill which has done as much harm to black folks as anything the 90s had to offer; gutting healthcare by demanding a seat for the predatory insurers; and on and on and on. These may be the eyes-right policies of McAuliffe’s DNC, but they sure aren’t progressive – not by a long shot.

At the same time, it’s undoubtedly true that Obama doesn’t have a record like that (“experience”), but many of us see that as a strength, similar to how lots of folks (mostly on the right) think the guaranteed election of naifs through instituting term limits will clear up government corruption.

In any event, escalating rhetoric about how this election can save us from becoming Germany in 33 is as counterproductive as Huntington’s propagandistic blather about the clash of civilizations. Let’s not throw out dialectical materialism along with Stalin and Brezhnev. As top-heavy with money and establishment power the US elective system is, as vapid and puerile the MSM coverage, the grassroots catch fire when enough people’s personal lives are affected. The freaky-deaky rioters at the 68 Democratic conventions were joined in less than 4 years by the grandmas and mechanics who were on the march by 72 – when enough fart sacks came home to Main Street, that is. RMN and HK be very justly damned to one of the lowest circles of hell, that’s what ended the war: enough feet on the street and – sometimes – a well-placed brick in hand. Prescient as ever, Frederick Douglass noted, as we should all recall: "If there is no struggle there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation…want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightening. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters…. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will."

Feminism taught me that community and cooperation is the healthy alternative to competition. How ironic that this woman running for president on the (supposedly) progressive stump would be so competitively partisan, so antithetical to a progressive platform; that the black candidate would be talking about “transcending race” to a nation that has never even formally addressed a history of indigenous genocide and its heaping coffers of filthy lucre bled from three centuries plus of involuntary African servitude. Doesn’t the saying go, “If voting changed anything, they’d make it illegal”?

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xbj --- in his own words ...
Posted by: johnclark on Feb 18, 2008 10:14 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just want everybody here to see troll xbj. i got bogged down on a few posts myself. My advise, book yr. trips to Ohio/Texas & get on the Obama canvass freight train! It does no go to engage this troll.

xbj says:

Oh, I get it. The question you don't ask yourself is WHY he would find a need to praise war criminals like Bush and Reagan IN THE FIRST PLACE. What could possibly be gained by doing that, unless you were one of them?

Obama is a brilliant orator; but he forgets sometime that he's pretending to be a Democrat, and that's his biggest problem.

Let's see:

1. Won't let himself be pinned down as to whether he'd have all troops out by 2009 seconds after Hillary said she have them out by the end of the first year in office if all went well (meaning a veto-proof filibuster-proof Democratic majority)...

CHECK. GOP.

2. Hates Hillary, palpably and obviously.

CHECK. GOP

3. Smoked and did cocaine

CHECK. GOP

4. Praises Reagan.

CHECK. GOP

5. Digs WAY DEEP DOWN to find the ONLY thing he could credibly praise Bush for.

CHECK. GOP

6. Scowls. Frowns. Scary negative hateful looks in eyes during speeches. Often sounds angry, while talking about reconciliation with the other side.

CHECK. GOP

And here's where the Lieberman analogy fits like a glove.

Karl Rove Tactic #176, Playbook Page #2

Insure you are behind BOTH candidates in the election so either way you win.

If Gore-Lieberman had won and Bush had lost in 2000, they would have had a bullet in Gore's head within a month of office, we would have GOP President Lieberman, and 9-11 would have gone ahead as planned, and nothing would have changed, except we'd have the teacher from South Park "Uh-huhm ok"-ing us through the debacle of Iraq instead of drunken coked out frog-blower-upper frat boy. (Obama, take note; what REAL Demorats ALL think of Bush. Repeat to yourself 1000 times every morning and every evening: Bush. Reagan. Bad. Hillary. Bill. Good.)

If Obama wins the nomination through the shenanigans here in Nevada, and suicides himself against the GOP candidate, Rove wins.

If Obama somehow through all miracles wins, then they pull their second 9-11 and Obama leads the US through the nuking of Irag (and hopefully, the massive nuclear retaliation of the combined arsenals of China and Russia.) If Hillary miraculously wins and picks Obama as a running mate, she gets the bullet, we get the Lieberman 9-11 II Plan B, and Rove wins.

It's called stacking the playing field; hedging your bets.

It's how Rove works. It's how he always worked. He only left the White House because it was going to be damned hard running the Obama campaign with all the press corps following him everywhere.

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» go canvass for hillary then Posted by: johnclark
Why the viciousness from Hillararians?
Posted by: seacaptdon on Feb 18, 2008 10:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In reading so many comments within the AlterNet blogs, I have noticed one thing, which seems to be common not only with the Hillary Clinton campaign but also with her backers.... they can only spew forth negative attacks and rhetoric on those who disagree with them and who dare point out obvious problems with her candidacy. They almost never answer the questions and concerns with intelligent responses or reasonable discourse disputing the criticisms and concerns, they only get angry and hateful or run away (cancel membership). It reminds me of the childish behavior of the Rebublican Congressmen/Congresswomen who walked out because they did not like being questioned over the warrantless wiretaps/eavesdropping and corporate immunity. If they had reasonable explanations or answers, why do they run away? Stay and speak up if you think you are in the right... or is it that you know the concerns and criticisms are legitimate and you have no answer????

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» As someone ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: As someone ... Posted by: data23
» Sorry Josh Posted by: johnclark
» RE: Sorry Josh Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Sorry Josh Posted by: C-Dawg Blake
Hate Machine
Posted by: mboerner on Feb 18, 2008 10:21 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Voting, rooting for Obama is fine. But must we democrats join the republican hate machine? And don't think they won't do to Obama what they did to the Clintons.

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Please - policy-wise, Obama and Clinton are essentially identical.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Feb 18, 2008 10:26 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's beyond me as to why people are getting excited over some Barack Clinton / Hillary Obama matchup (residual Super Bowl fever?). The candidates are really very similar:

1) We can expect decent Supreme Court appointments from both candidates. (P.S. if a President is found to have attained his office via fraud, are his Supreme Court appointments subject to dismissal?)

2) We can also expect a continuation of the neoliberal agenda of the WTO, World Bank, Group of Eight, Paris Club, IMF-system under both Obama and Clinton, as opposed to the Republican neoconservative militaristic "forget economic warfare, here come the Marines!" approach.

3) Both candidates, in cooperation with Congress, are likely to return us to the pre-Patriot Act era, and perhaps even support the dissolution of the proto-fascist "Homeland Security" mentality. ("Homeland" is a phrase that reeks of empire and colonialism. There is the homeland, and then there are the foreign colonies that feed the homeland. Only empires have homelands.)

The future of expanding domestic surveillance and the Big Brother Corporate State is still up in the air, as both Clinton and Obama excused themselves from voting on the AT&T/Verizon "retroactive immunity from prosecution" FISA bill that passed recently.

4) Both candidates will probably support the neoliberal agenda in Iraq - some degree of regional autonomy, as long as U.S. interests get access to the oil. The candidates haven't been asked directly about this.

Oddly enough, the Iraqi oil unions continue to claim that they can produce Iraqi oil using domestic expertise - that no foreign investment (i.e. control) is needed, as long as they can get access to the funds from current Iraqi oil sales. They want to nationalize their oil and sell it to the highest bidder, be it Russia, China, India, Europe or the U.S. This topic has been banned from discussion in the U.S. press.

5) The health care plans are slightly different but neither one would establish a national health care system as in Britain and Canada. The U.S. continues to slip towards the Third World in terms of overall health statistics, and the growing gap between rich and poor is reflected in the two-tier health care system. Neither candidate really has a plan to reverse that trend.

Anyway, for a better article on the politics of the close Clinton-Obama contest for the Democratic nomination, see the Center for Independent Media's new startup, the Washington Independent:

Democratic Strategists Brace for Tight Races
Despite Obama's Recent Momentum, Clinton Leads in Texas, Ohio and Pennsylvania


and

Howard Dean Faces Tough Choices
Without a Clear Democratic Primary Winner, DNC Chair Could Mediate Solution


The only real issue right now is whether the public vote or smoky backroom politics will decide the candidacy. If the public vote goes to the winning candidate, then all is well. If it's awarded on a political or legal technicality despite the popular vote (as in Gore vs. Bush 2000), then people will be disgusted.

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Some very twisted logic that the Democratic Party would be wise to heed
Posted by: xbj on Feb 18, 2008 10:35 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Now bear with me, folks, it's going to get deep in here for a moment.

So let's see, according to Obama cultheads Hillary is a witch, and her voters are all twisted hate filled Republican warmongers. And a lot of other nasty lying stuff that doesn't need to be repeated here, you get the drift.

And Obama is Jesus F. Christ, and his disciples want a world of love and peace and holding hands with the GOP.

OK, IF this was true, (and I'm not saying it is) WE'D ALL BETTER HOPE OBAMA PULLS OUT AND THE DEMOCRATIC CONVENTION NOMINATES HILLARY.

And here's why:

IF Hillary supporters are insufferable jerks and the monsters the Obama people are making them out to be, THEY WILL ALL VOTE FOR MCCAIN IN THE GENERAL ELECTION RATHER THAN EVER VOTE FOR OBAMA. Out of spite. Because that's just how evil Hillary is and Hillary supporters are.

Obama supporters, on the other hand, being the elevated ones, the more morally pure and righteous ones, WOULD NEVER EVER VOTE FOR MCCAIN just to PROVE A POINT.

So that decides it. The Democratic Party had better let the evil Hildebeast have the nomination, or else all her evil wicked supporters (starting with me and I am NOT kidding, the tone of most of this post in tongue in cheek but my voting for McCain if Obama gets the nomination is most assuredly NOT) are going to vote for McCain, and added to the GOP vote, he will absolutely win.

Obama cultheads are far TOO moral, far TOO good, far TOO righteous, far too love and peace dovey dovey to EVER VOTE FOR A MCCAIN.

So there you have it. Run with THAT, RoveObamabots....

Not bad for a troll, eh?

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» SURE I am... Posted by: xbj
Same Ole!
Posted by: kirktc on Feb 18, 2008 10:37 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sounds like what I've had to pick from in past elections! (Bush,Clinton,Bush.) I'm breaking the chain, I'm voting for our future, I'm voting Obama's message(Yes we can), I'm voting for Obama!!!!!!!!!!!#1

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» No, you can't! Posted by: xbj
» RE: No, you can't! Posted by: kirktc
» RE: No, you can't! Posted by: jmooney
» RE: Same Ole! Posted by: johnclark
Same Ole!
Posted by: kirktc on Feb 18, 2008 10:48 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm breaking from conventional thinking, again. Old dogs are so hard to retrain, but hey, they can be........
Fired up and ready to vote for Obama, I love our children, they are so smart. A LOT smarter then us. When they see something GOOD, they go after it..........

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xbj seems to be the only clueless person posting here
Posted by: seacaptdon on Feb 18, 2008 10:56 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I cannot believe the underwhelming ignorance xbj spews forth... maybe it needs to go back at take a good look at the facts and get a reality check...

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Same Ole!
Posted by: kirktc on Feb 18, 2008 10:58 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No, I have a lot of trick pony's, just like me. We're very versital people, with very diversified backgrounds. Dang smart too...
Vote for change, vote with us, Vote for Obama!

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America's Collective "Enough is Enough"
Posted by: katefranklin on Feb 18, 2008 10:54 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All the Clintonites that are lamenting Obama's uplifting themes are missing an important point. Unity is not something that just makes us feel warm and fuzzy inside, it is actually the key ingredient in getting reforms through in Washington. E.g., it was the hyper-partisanism of the Clintons in the 90s that killed Hillary's health care plan. Eight years of Bush has been our penance for the failures and pettiness of the Clinton years.

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Putrid and pathetic
Posted by: jmooney on Feb 18, 2008 11:29 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Clintons are putrid and pathetic and must be repudiated at the polls. Democrats in Wisconsin, Texas and Ohio must carefully consider if they want this unscrupulous, dysfunctional, couple in the White House again. I do not and will NOT vote for the Clintons if they are nominated.

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» RE: Putrid and pathetic Posted by: pizzmoe
Mary S.
Posted by: maryMS on Feb 18, 2008 11:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why is the amount of money raised the yardstick that is used as to how qualified a candidate is? Has the media setup money as the measuring tool because they make heaps of dollars when they air (mostly negative) ads from the candidates.

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» Campaign Finance Reform Posted by: anothername
Wow, another anti-Clinton Article
Posted by: Jersey Devil on Feb 18, 2008 12:02 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well we can all guess who Bob Parry of Nobody Cares News is going to vote. What type of Consortium does the news pr Bob, Republican? This is a knife job from word one. What if the Voters want Hillary on the basis of her ability to face down the Republican Attack Machine, who's talking points with which you seem to have intimate knowledge. The Republican Party wants Obama because he is fresh meat for their swiftboat grinders. Hillary is tough, knows how to fight back, and is a proven winner in the face of Republican sliming. Besides she scares the poop out of the Republican leaderships. Obama gives great motivational lectures that encourage us to hope for change. So Democrats need to decide if they want a doer, or a dreamer for President. The past two presidential elections should be warning enough about dreamers. Hillary is a doer and not afraid to fight while Obama wants to make nice and still thinks you can deal with the Devil.

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How far will the Clintons go
Posted by: zarabeth on Feb 18, 2008 12:08 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Obama wins fair and square and then the Clintons succeed in getting Florida and Michigan to count despite their previous pledge not to campaign there, or if they use nefarious means and tricky counting of superdelegates to get Hillary the nomination, I am changing from Democrat to Independent. I would be totally disgusted. She will lose the support of a LOT of voters if she/they pull this. We need a new president, but we need one we can trust, not one who would pull this kind of BS.

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» RE: So, "guilty until proved innocent"? Posted by: animalleaderisgreat
NO REDEEMING VALUE
Posted by: outrider on Feb 18, 2008 1:05 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The question is not how far Senator Clinton and ex-President Clinton will go to win but rather how far Robert Parry and AlterNet will go to defeat Senator Clinton. There appears to be no limit. Robert Parry has lost any semblance he might have had of being an investigative reporter. AlterNet is not helping its image either when it continually elects to print unjustified defamatory articles about political candidates which do little but evoke valueless and detestable comments..

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sick of this
Posted by: data23 on Feb 18, 2008 1:08 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Man, put Hillary in an article and everyone's claws come out. I don't think I've ever seen so many comments removed(I can imagine what was said).I'm an Obama person myself but I still can't get over the hostility that Hillary generates on this site. It's all making my noggin hurt..

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» RE: sick of this Posted by: pizzmoe
What Everyone Needs to Know about Hillary
Posted by: carolleo on Feb 18, 2008 1:33 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With Hillary Clinton now running for President, and people actually supporting her candidacy, it's time for me to let everyone know once again, about an evil of which the Clintons are guilty that's so horrific, few will even address it.

I've been here for the past 10 years because, while Bill Clinton was governor of Arkansas, the ADC was harvesting plasma from prisoners they knew to have hepitits B and C, HIV, and even full-blown AIDS, and selling it to pharmaceutical companies which made it into medicines that have killed millions of people worldwide.

The prison plasma program re-used needles and tubing, thereby infecting most of their donor base which wasn't already infected. They set the collection machines to over-bleed the donors, draining most of their plasma from some prisoners. They re-froze and shipped plasma which had been rendered unfit by thawing.

They violated every single medical protocol for the collection of human blood and blood plasma!

The FDA kept shutting them down, and governor Bill Clinton kept getting the program re-named and re-certified.

They harvested approximately 2,500 units of plasma weekly. They paid the prisoners $5 a unit in commissary script - then raised the prices in the commissary. Some prisoners were paid in narcotic drugs, rather than script.

They sold the plasma for $70 and up per unit, netting an income from this atrocity of between $9 and $10 million a year. The Arkansas legislature wrote a law - #19-4-801 - which exempted the ADC from having to account for this money.

Tens of millions of dollars simply "evaporated" into thin air, and suddenly po'-boy Bill Clinton - lowest-paid governor in the country - had millions of dollars with which to launch his first Presidential campaign.

Some Arkansas prisoners saw the pay-out sheets from the plasma program. Governor Clinton's name was at the top, and he got the lion's share. The plasma program wasn't a scandal at the time, and no one had any idea there was anything more than "routine" graft and corruption going on, so those records were destroyed.

The bottom line is that everything the Clinton's have is paid for by the suffering and deaths of untold millions of innocent people all over the world.

The suffering and deaths brought about so that Bill Clinton - and possibly Hillary - could become President will continue until science finds cures for or vaccines against those viruses, or until the end of time. The final numbers of people who will suffer and die so that the Clintons could reap wealth and power, will be known but to God.

The Clinton's are evil. Not rhetorical evil, but REAL, GENUINE evil, and they're apparently under the protection of some supernatural Evil that lets them continue to prosper in wealth and power because of their sins.

Please see my web site about my brother's death and the plasma program at http://www.geocities.com/BloodCows, and Kelly Duda's site about his documentary film Factor 8: The Arkansas Prison Blood Scandal, at http://www.factor8movie.com

If Americans continue to elect evil leaders, things are just going to keep getting worse. I don't yet know who I'll vote for - I am not comfortable with any of them - but I do know one thing for sure: I'll vote for
ANYBODY BUT HILLARY!

Please help spread the word. We can't keep hiring monsters to lead us, and wondering why America is struggling to keep our place in the world.

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Film: AIDS Scandal in Clinton's Arkansas
Posted by: carolleo on Feb 18, 2008 1:37 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Film: AIDS Scandal in Clinton's Arkansas
A shocking new documentary shows how inmates at an Arkansas prison were paid to donate blood even though authorities knew they had AIDS and hepatitis.
The movie "Factor 8: The Arkansas Prison Blood Scandal" by filmmaker Kelly Duda discloses that Arkansas, then under the leadership of Gov. Bill Clinton, allowed the contaminated blood from prisoners to be exported during the 1980s and 1990s to be used in the making of clotting agents for hemophiliacs.
As a result, thousands of people in the United Kingdom and other countries contracted AIDS or potentially fatal hepatitis, according to the UK's Sunday Herald.
Duda's film will premiere at the American Film Institute Festival in Los Angeles on November 8.
It reveals for the first time how officials at Cummins Penitentiary doctored inmates' medical records to hide the fact that they were carrying the diseases, the Herald reports.
In the movie, former inmate and hepatitis sufferer Bill Douglas, who regularly donated plasma, said: "They didn't care if you had to crawl to get there as long as you were able to give blood. You were never checked."
Dr. Edwin Barron, a medical administrator at Cummins who resigned after about a year, told the filmmaker: "They did little or no screening of anybody."
And Randal Morgan, who was deputy director of the department of corrections in Arkansas from 1981 to 1996, declared: "It would be ludicrous that Bill Clinton did not know that the plasma program was experiencing problems."
Source: NewsMax Archives 11/4/2005

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The Clinton's will do whatever it takes to win..
Posted by: pizzmoe on Feb 18, 2008 2:16 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As opposed to who?

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This thread
Posted by: hurricane hugo on Feb 18, 2008 2:19 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
has to have set a record for most posts removed.

jdfu!

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» One word... shills Posted by: xbj
» RE: This thread Posted by: johnclark
» RE: This thread Posted by: data23
War Criminals in The White House and Still They Cannot Leave the Clinton's Alone!
Posted by: sofla100 on Feb 18, 2008 2:52 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When you consider Bush in the White House and McCain possibly on the way, people who are real criminals, then why all the vilification of Clinton and Hillary? Is the purpose to wreck the Democratic party? Let's see, Clinton gets investigated relentlessly for year on end while in the White House, and he finally gets impeached for oral sex with a willing intern (or lying about it I guess). Meanwhile, Bush starts an illegal war, and then wiretaps illegally. Next, the Congress acts to retroactively give him immunity for his illegal actions. Then you have this same President who endorses torture and violating the Geneva Conventions. He also creates a concentration camp in Cuba, clearly again in violation of international law and puts people there without trial or recourse to the courts. It just goes on and on with Bush. As for McCain, he has already indicated torture is now A-OK, and the quest for USA control of the Middle East, and presumably the World, is to continue unabated. So, isn't it silly and ludicrous to go after the Clinton's, especially Hillary, because she sticks up for herself? I think because she is a strong woman, she violates the expected status quo for how "women are suppose to act." And, this miffs people. As for Bill, his economy was billions less in deficits and people were wealthier then under GW Bush, so there is a lot of jealousy floating around. Lastly, I am an Obama supporter, but am sick of this crap of going after the Clinton's for nothing much more then innuendo's and made up trifles.

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This is why Separation of Church and State is Important
Posted by: dbarber on Feb 18, 2008 3:20 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If people simply wanted to construct shrines to Hillary and Obama and pray to them as the demigods they obviously consider them to be, no one else would have to worry about it.

But instead, they're running for office, and so anyone who comments on the flaws and misdeeds of either of the two is forced to endure cries of "Heresy!!" "Sacrilege!" and BLAAAASPHEMY!!!" Of course, that's not the words they use, but when people's emotions override their abilities to think critically, and their ability to worship their idols gets compromised when others point out they have feet of clay and are wearing no clothes, that essentially is what it boils down to.

Of course, both of them have only the best interests of the nation at heart, which sounds great until you realize that neither one of the two has done diddly-SQUAT!! to counter the activites of Big Dubya while serving in the Senate, so their good intentions don't seem to amount to much.

To me, the basic difference is the amount of corruption which has accrued to each. Hillary's been playing the game longer, so naturally, on a national level, she has more under (and over) the table deals she'll be held to if she gets into office. Obama has ties to regional interests which are just as shady, but he hasn't had the chance to ruthlessly throw any allies to the wolves yet, so his viciousness is an X-factor.

But to all of their loyal supporters: do any of you think you and your interests wouldn't get sold out in a heartbeat if it was to the advantage of either one of these pols? While you get the warm fuzzies out of whatever symbology this election furnishes you with, the rest of us will have to live in a country that doesn't run on either hope OR faith, and whoever runs it CAN'T just coast on good intentions (or CLAIMS of good intentions); the previous regime made sure of that.

In the meantime, for Alternet to avoid being critical just because you've already decided YOUR candidate is the only one who can save our nation would be (what's the PC term?) 'developmentally disabled'. And if the legion of Hillary supporters cancelling their subscriptions means the rest of us will be spared their tiresome rants, I for one welcome it.

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Bad advice from Neo-Cons?
Posted by: GPFrank on Feb 18, 2008 3:23 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Two most troubling parts about Bill Clinton's foreign policy was his failure to appreciate the opportunity after the collapse of the Soviet Union,instead leaving the people to the mercy of the Party bureaucrats who became oligarchs under Friedmanite banking policies, and the lack of any defense of workers rights under NAFTA. and here it seems the Clinton campaign is getting funds from the same people. In regard to "Greater Russia " we now have an adversary under one of the smartest leaders and we are having anti-US types of socialism in South America. Could the supporters of the Clinton campaign give us any assurances about these issues except repeating the bromide that Obama will do the same?

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McCain will fuel the Jihad and Terrorism, at least a Better Hope under Clinton
Posted by: sofla100 on Feb 18, 2008 3:40 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The neocons and a McCain would push the USA right into nuclear conflict with Russia if we let them. Obama will engage in dialogue and diplomacy, something missing from Bush, and at least we have a chance. As for Hillary, she will tend to be a Bush-lite, I believe, and tends towards the neocons, but still believes in diplomacy. As for Al-Queda, a vote for McCain is a vote for terrorism and Al Queda, it is a vote for Osama Bin Laden. Why? Because McCain is going to fuel the jihad by escalating Iraq, he will "green light" Israel going into Syria and into Iran, plans she has long had on the books. The result of all this will be immense hatred in the Muslim world, like nothing we have ever seen. I mean, it will really, really get bad. And, I hope our cities don't go. So, we cannot have a McCain. Hillary, still a problem, but not a war nut, and at least not to a severe extent.

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never trust anybody who wants power this much!
Posted by: phindrup on Feb 18, 2008 3:43 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The one, overriding reason not to support Hilary is her desperation to win.
Obama may not do a great job as president. The certainty is that neither McCain or will do any better than Bush.

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RE: How Far is AMERICA Willing to Go?
Posted by: Bibsi on Feb 19, 2008 2:27 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WOW, Sharon. You said it all better than I've seen anyone do it. Keep it up; hang tough.

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Remember the 2000 Election: Of, By, and For the People???
Posted by: artie on Feb 18, 2008 5:31 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Clinton's political tactics certainly force us to face not only the question "Throughout our history, have we ever been a democracy; if so, to what extent?" but also the question "Do we want it to be more so than before?" For so much of our history, so much of our populace have been disenfranchised: the "unpropertied," females, so-called "people of color" (indigenous peoples, slaves, former slaves, Asians), soldiers and others between 18 and 21 years of age, ex-convicts, and those voters that the computer disenfranchised! Obama's emphasis on "we" engenders hope that the denouement of our country's oligarchy has been written. The Clintons' tactics certainly demonstrate that they are not of this hope. To begin to build a more democratic country, a more democratic Democratic party, the Clintons' appeal to superdelegates must not go unchallenged.....

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Hillary supporters = Ron Paul supporters
Posted by: data23 on Feb 18, 2008 6:47 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
when it comes to the level of rabid, reactionary vitriol they spew at anyone who doesn't share their point of view. So many of them are such mean spirited folks, you can feel their spit on your face just reading some of these posts. I'll sit back now and watch the nasty replies come in! Grrr!!!

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Information is power
Posted by: liberalibrarian on Feb 18, 2008 7:34 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ok--

I've read all the posts. Like most Alternet posters, I read several books a week, Internet, blogs, etc. (also it's my job!:)

I liked what Dan Abrams had to say this evening in his program--let's let the people have the rest of their say and stop spinning the whole thing as if it were a sporting event. Good for him.

I remember Jack Kennedy and his speeches and how he rallied the young people--I admire the 60's and all the change it brought to both women and African-Americans as well as other disenfranchised people. I was there... But, as history spans out, it turns out he was a rather mediocre president and in fact, Bobby pretty much saved us from war re: the bay of pigs.

If Obama is the wave of the future, great. I'm willing to bank on a new 60's for that revolution should have won...but what I am going to do now is speak out for unity. The Democrats need to take out the neocons. Whichever ticket, up/down pres/vp it takes. Let them campaign--it's what they do.

It's up to us to think things through.
P.S. CBS is on my s list for their cartoon rendering of "superdelegates"--give is a break.
Peace,
Liberal Librarian

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The simple fact is
Posted by: popsicle67 on Feb 18, 2008 7:41 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We should not reward this woman with the chance to be president. She set the worst example possible by staying with her husband after he repeatedly
pissed on her publicly by having sex with another woman in the White House. I am sure he is not the first President to do so, but I don't trust a woman would put up with that type of treatment without saying something. Even if she said that she was okay with the adultery, she should have at least condemned the manner and location as being abusive to her and the country. Her willingness to accept anything to hold onto the spotlight does not bode well for
the country under her Presidency

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» RE: The simple fact is Posted by: Greatdameinthemorning
» RE: The simple fact is Posted by: foreverhope
» RE: The simple fact is Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: The simple fact is Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: The simple fact is Posted by: left_libertarian
» RE: The simple fact is Posted by: bittershaman
Banana Republic?
Posted by: sal paradise on Feb 18, 2008 7:48 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hillary could make a better president than her husband was and I have a lot of respect for the job he did. But after 28 years of either a Bush or a Clinton in the White House (Old Bush 12 years - Clinton 8 years - Bush 8 years) I say enough is enough! Can anyone really get excited about another potential 8 years of the same? That would be a staggering 36 years! That is a more than a generation folks. We are starting to look like a banana republic and for this reason alone I'm going with Obama. I'm truly exited to actually have a choice for change.

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Hillary Clinton:Pro War and Anti-Liberty
Posted by: left_libertarian on Feb 18, 2008 8:10 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The two reasons I will not vote for Senator Clinton:

She voted for the Iraq War Resolution and the Patriot Act.

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QUESTION: How many Senate and House seats are open this year and in what states? does anyone know?
Posted by: foreverhope on Feb 18, 2008 10:10 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the past 24 hours or so it has been nagging at this old political junkie, now the curiousity is eating at me. WHY is everyone ONLY talking about the presidential candidates in this election? That seems odd to me?

How many republicans turned out for primaries and caucuses? It was VERY VERY LOW I believe. That should be at least some indication of what the republican turnout will be in the general. The repugs are at an all time low. We will have to screw up pretty damn bad to lose the general, but it would BE GREAT to win BIG and sweep in other dems! That is what the next leader of this country needs for real change.

A MANDATE.

Republicans up for election or reelection will be shunning GWB big time, at least in public.

Ugggg....I keep seeing that pic of Bush with his arms around McCain, and that kiss on the forehead, ick! ewwwwwww! Gross.

Did you see the Romney endorsement? could Mitt have been ANY further away from McCain when they shook hands? lol....And Hucklebee just will NOT go away, pumping up his lecture fees and running the same homie tv ads over and over.

ANYWAY, in the states, both red and blue, that Obama has so far taken by wide margins, breaking traditional demographic barriers, how many have house and senate elections this year? How many states have governors running this year?

In many instances the dem votes favored Obama two or three to every vote for Hillary. Many of these were newly registered dems, independents and moderates, lol, and Reagan dems.

SO, it IS logical, at least IMO, and something I am sure the dem party leaders are also aware of, that these enthusiastic optimistic new voters COULD creat a substantial sweep for quite a few dems also running for the house and senate, potentially giving dems a solid mandate in both, AND giving Obama the mandate he will need for significant change to occur as quickly as possible.

TALK ABOUT BEING READY ON DAY ONE! YIPPPEEEE!!

Across the board it can only be good news for other dems up for election.

I CAN NOT BELIEVE THE DEM PARTY WON'T USE ALL THAT POSITIVE ENERGY, PUT IT TO WORK ASAP, IGNORING THE IMPACT OBAMA SUPPORTERS CAN HAVE ON OTHER DEM CANDIDATES IN THE GENERAL.

IMO that would be a very serious error in political judgement.

Sure wouldn't be very encouraging or logical to just ignore these new voters because they voted for Obama and say oh well whatever, maybe they will stick around anyway.

Can anyone do the math on this? I am surprised there doesn't seem to be even a whisper of this anywhere, very curious.

One more old white grandma voting for Obama

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Problems Hillary cannot solve
Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Feb 18, 2008 10:45 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Apart from her undistinguished Senate resume, Hillary has never demonstrated a grasp of the issues troubling most voters and lacks the talent to inspire confidence in her ability to evoke change. More troubling to me is her election will introduce the precedent of a co-presidency with her husband and I think it is evident that the nation has seen and heard enough from him. If she is nominated, my view is that she will lose the vast Obama base of supporters and she will rally the Republicans and others to renewed hatred of her husband that will snatch defeat from a locked victory in November. We will be left to ponder where McCain/Lieberman-Huckaby-(?) will lead us and the depths we currently experience under Bushshit/Chain-gang will worsen. Thus, is "victory" at any cost laudable in Hillary's case or is it the insurmountable problem that the nation can ill-afford?

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we're screwed
Posted by: samurai on Feb 18, 2008 10:47 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let me just say that I was an Obama supporter till just a week ago, until I learned that he is being sponsored by the biggset nutjob of them all, Zbigniew Brzezinski. If you think Bush was a warmonger, you probably ain't seen the big "Z" in action. Sticking it to the Russians with Kosovar independence was his brainchild. The problem is that the Russians aint no piggly wiggly act like Iraq. If you screw around too much with the Russians, trying to engineer a Russia-China war and so on, it's going to bit you in the a.. much more than a few yahoos in Iraq.

But get this, Zbigniew is also chummy with Billary through his protege Madman Albright. So the American people are screwed no matter what.

That said, I can't stand Billary's race baiting. Their latest gimmick is to brand Obama as a "plagiarist", just like what people once tried to do with MLK (the unwritten implication is that black men can't think on their own). Never mind that Billary was exposed planting questions in the audience a while back. Billary might just get the race war they're aiming for, if this kind of crap continues.

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lwithers
Posted by: lwithers on Feb 18, 2008 11:54 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mr. Parry's article about the Clinton's is so obviously slanted I don't think it deserves any comment whatsoever.

It is a pity such writers exist.....

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» RE: lwithers Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: lwithers Posted by: gabbyone
Gimme a break!
Posted by: Bibsi on Feb 19, 2008 1:49 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do what it takes to win?? Like Bush LiteII who stole two elections? I don't give a shit what it takes for Hillary to win, but it won't be illegal; it won't be shenanigans with FL voters and the goddamn Supremes' appointing this shitass we've had to live with seven years and see on television until we vomited, or in 2004, in OH and FL with voter fraud, and lest we forget Nader, who was partly responsible for Gore's loss in 2000 who is just as much of a megalomaniac as Dumbya, just smarter. You third party people are responsible for the horrible devastation wrought on this country this seven years; so, do it again. "Vote your conscience," whatever the hell that is; it will do nothing to override the unspeakable policies of Bush Lite.

His daddy's endorsement of McCain is a Pyrrhic victory at best; no one wants another Bush, and the first one didn't do very well and was roundly defeated by Bill Clinton.

Many of you who call yourselves "progressives" are simple iconoclasts who rebel against anything which doesn't fit into you teeny world view. So get off your asses and help elect a president who can do something to get our country back! Or stay home and NOT vote.

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God
Posted by: sp00n67 on Feb 19, 2008 8:21 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is possibly the last chance you Americans have to get it right. Time is running out, the ice is almost gone, the Oceans are poluted and too warm, the trees are dying and clean water is scarce. The change you need is much more than you see. The point of no return is upon you now. If I had to choose between Hillbilly and Barack's wife I would vote for Mrs.Obama as she is also a real human being with a heart for change. Bill Clinton is a lobyist and would run things for the next 8 years. They had their turn already as nothing would change. If they steal the nomination, Mc Cain has a chance. I sent you Jesus and now Barack he's their for a reason and Hillary is not.

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» RE: God Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
Support for AIPAC
Posted by: elmysterio on Feb 19, 2008 4:17 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Reaching out to AIPAC for financial support is like selling your soul to devil and ensures that the candidate will maintain the status quo when it comes to things like Iraq, Iran & Israel.

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
Gullible Americans
Posted by: Mokonzi on Feb 21, 2008 8:16 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Gullible Americans

It will never cease to amaze me watching your political process. By they way, do you have one? Is there a real democracy in your country? I wonder...

Your Constitution has been shredded, country and Citizens indebted, Health care decimated, Army stretched to the limit and you go on believing the parties that made this occur over the last 100 plus years will actually change or improve the mess you are in.

Gullible - that is what you all are.

Get the Corporations out of your system and take control of your finances. He who issues money has all the power!!! Focus all your attention where it matters most and do not be distracted by the sold out media.

Rome did not crumble overnight...

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Six of one; a half dozen of the other.
Posted by: Scottffolliott on Feb 22, 2008 5:00 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Clinton may destroy the Democrats' chances in 2008 when she loses the nomination; she certainly will destroy the Democrats' chances in 2008 were she to be the nominee." Dr.Zimmerman Robert

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Unfair criticism
Posted by: ajrfman on Feb 23, 2008 2:07 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think Hillary Clinton is receiving unfair criticism from the media, and from Obama. Even the race card has been played against her and Bill Clinton. Then there was that comment from a McCain woman supporter, calling her a bitch. I am sure if the woman had used the "n" word for Obama, there would have been an uproar against the McCain supporter (and rightly so). I like Obama, but even he is unfairly criticizing Clinton. His mailings about her health plan are not right.

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» RE: Unfair criticism Posted by: desidid
» RE: Unfair criticism Posted by: ajrfman
It's Politics Baby
Posted by: maggzilla on Feb 23, 2008 8:15 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm so sick of the whiming Obama supporters who think that politcs is a clean game. It's not, it is dirty and down right stinky and to parade around like Obama is free of the dirt and stench is pathetic.

Go ahead Democrats--pick another whimpy Kerry-esc type of candidate and watch as the GOP keeps control of the presidency. Hillary is a shark--I love that about her and is what I expect from a strong leader.

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» RE: It's Politics Baby Posted by: desidid
» RE: It's Politics Baby Posted by: foreverhope
» RE: It's Politics Baby Posted by: ajrfman
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