COMMENTS: 133
Huckabee's Biblical Madness: Dispatches From the War on Stupidity
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Mike Huckabee has made a set of controversial statements about the Constitution (amendable), and the Word of God (not-amendable).
It aroused a fair amount of controversy. Which was good. But all of it missed the real point. The real point, or what should be the real point, is that almost every phrase in his statements was factually untrue.
Whether you're a person of faith or a secularist, or trying to balance the two, the discussion should be based on reality, not fantasies or myth-making. Furthermore, failure to confront the falsehoods helps perpetuate our life in a world of nonsense.
Here's what he said.
He later expanded on that in an interview with CNN's Wolf Blitzer.
I have opponents in this race who do not want to change the Constitution. But I believe it's a lot easier to change the Constitution than it would be to change the word of the living God. And that's what we need to do, to amend the Constitution so it's in God's standards rather than try to change God's standards so it lines up with some contemporary view of how we treat each other and how we treat the family.
In actuality, it's far harder to amend the Constitution than the Word of God. Amending the Constitution is a difficult and arduous process. Amending the Word of God is quite easy. Any preacher (like Mr. Huckabee), a Pope, a self proclaimed new prophet, even a mere pundit, can come along and say, "This is actually the word of God! Not that old stuff you used to believe!"
Huckabee: Well, what I'm simply saying, we've changed the Constitution 27 times in 221 years. But the Ten Commandments are still the Ten Commandments. We haven't added or subtracted any of them, and that's my point, is that the Constitution was created with the understanding that it could be changed, we could make changes. ...
Blitzer: But the criticism is you, in effect, would want to amend the Constitution based on the Bible. Is that right?
Huckabee: Well, it's really based on the idea that we've always had a historical understanding that life is precious. We go all the way back to the Declaration of Independence, when the founders made it very clear that all of us are equal. And equality wasn't based on the point of our viability. It wasn't based on our net worth, our personal assets, or ancestry. At the heart of the pro-life movement is the idea of intrinsic worth in value.
Marriage has only meant one thing in all of our historical settings. It's only meant one man/one woman. When someone wants to change that, what we're looking for is an amendment to say let's affirm, not change the definition of marriage. Let's affirm the definition we have, because some states are trying to change it, creating a huge mess for whether or not another state would have to recognize what one state did. And, in fact, why I think we need the constitutional amendment.
Indeed, it happens in the Bible itself, over and over again. It's a big problem for the Western monotheistic tradition. Catholics solved it by not having ordinary people read the Bible for themselves (one of the primary issues of the Protestant Reformation) and having a hierarchy of priests, led by a Pope, to do the reading and then telling people what it means.
Protestants have tried to solve it by developing a whole school of theology called Dispensationalism. It is that God has "dispensed" his wisdom in constantly changing chunks as mankind was prepared to understand them, and it's our collective fault that He didn't set it out clearly the first time.
Islam took the view that the Jews and Christians had corrupted the texts and so God sent Gabriel to Mohammed with a final set of revisions. Joseph Smith was visited by God and Jesus Christ, who told him more or less the same thing (except the bit about Mohammed). Then the Angel Moroni told him where some golden tablets with a different set of revisions written by a guy named Mormon were buried. Smith dug them up. They were in "reformed Egyptian." He translated them, then gave them back to Angel Moroni.
Huckabee says " the Ten Commandments are still the Ten Commandments." Let us leave aside the facts that there are three different versions of the Ten Commandments in the Old Testament and the only one so labeled bears little resemblance to the one usually referred to by that name, and that Protestants, Jews, and Catholics each use a slightly different set of even that one.
The reality is that virtually all contemporary Christian and Jewish groups have amended them. And that any group that tried to enforce them, in the manner called for in the Bible, would be subject to arrest.
The Second Commandment begins: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth ...:"
This clearly forbids all paintings and statues of Jesus (let alone of anything else). It is worth noting that the Catholics simply removed this Commandment from the list and split up the last one into two parts so that they still had ten. It is only taken seriously in Islam, which is why Islamic art contains only designs and calligraphy and why the Taliban (quite correctly, by Biblical injunction) destroyed the giant statues of the Buddha.
But for the most part, this has been simply, and quietly amended. By ignoring it.
The Bible calls for the death penalty for violations of the 4th (keeping the Sabbath), the 5th (honoring your Mother & Father, or more precisely for cursing them), and the 7th (committing adultery.) The Bible adds that "everyone who divorces his wife, except for the cause of fornication, makes her an adulteress, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery."
Obviously, enforcing those penalties would end Christianity as a cultural force in America, as there would be so few of them left. The Tenth Commandment, the one about "coveting," criminalizes thought. Any attempt to enforce it (aside from violating the fundamentals of American law), would remove all the Christians and Jews who were left after the executions required by enforcement of #4, #5, and #7, except for those in a vegetative state.
The Bible is amended far more often, far more casually, with far less debate, than amending the Constitution.
Huckabee's goal is two amendments to the Constitution. One would ban abortion. There is nothing in the Bible that directly forbids abortion. Not a word. Not a jot. So he does a shuffle and slide and he says:
In fact, voting was restricted to white males, and normally, only those white males with a certain amount of personal assets. The historical truth is exactly the opposite of what Huckabee claims.
Well, it's really based on the idea that we've always had a historical understanding that life is precious.
We go all the way back to the Declaration of Independence, when the founders made it very clear that all of us are equal. And equality wasn't based on the point of our viability. It wasn't based on our net worth, our personal assets, or ancestry. At the heart of the pro-life movement is the idea of intrinsic worth in value.
The second would define marriage as "a union between one man and one woman." Nothing in the Bible says that. Based on the examples found in the Bible the rule would more accurately be described as "Marriage is a union between one man and as many women as he can get in the prevailing social climate."
This is not meant as an attack on Mr. Huckabee. Compared to the crowd he's running against, and within the limits of Republican ideology, many of his foreign and domestic policy positions are sane and humane.
The point is that in our public debates the Right Wing postulates certain myths, the mainstream media repeats them, or nods along as if they're not full of obvious untruths, and while the Left may howl in outrage, fails to point out the factual errors and then drive them home. Truly stupid policies can only stand on a foundation of falsehoods.
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Posted by: Lector on Jan 30, 2008 12:51 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For the Protestants, dispensationalism was just another clever excuse for telling people what the Bible meant, so it began all over again. Now any two-bit huckster could step in and tell you that the Lord spoke with him last night. Enter the next huckster, Huckabee who’s going to tell us ignorant folks the Lord wants us to change the Constitution. Why doesn’t he just say it, that the Ten Commandments = US Constitution. Cannot help but continue the mantra that organized religion poisons everything. What an amazing country, how a man like Huckabee, affiliated with a cult church like the Westboro Baptist Church receives legitimacy from a major “non-biased” network like CNN.
Pointless
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» RE: the Lord spoke to Huckabee
Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: the Lord spoke to Huckabee
Posted by: Lector
» RE: the Lord spoke to Huckabee
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: the Lord spoke to Huckabee
Posted by: reval
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Posted by: Jbuuty on Jan 30, 2008 1:53 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Leave Biblical Interpretation to others
Posted by: El Hombre Malo
» RE: Leave Biblical Interpretation to others
Posted by: ohb0b
» RE: "Universal Truths"
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: "Universal Truths"
Posted by: ohb0b
» RE: Leave Biblical Interpretation to others
Posted by: poetac
» RE: Leave Biblical Interpretation to others
Posted by: xenocyd
» RE: Leave Biblical Interpretation to others
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Leave Biblical Interpretation to others
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: Prejudice or Postjudice?
Posted by: factbased
» RE: Leave Biblical Interpretation to others???
Posted by: dkm
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Posted by: bitsfick on Jan 30, 2008 3:25 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Ten Commandments are still the Ten Commandments.
Posted by: EJ
» Only three commandments are legal
Posted by: Sushi
» RE Another Commandment You BETTER listen to, too!
Posted by: Sissy
» RE: Ten Commandments are still the Ten Commandments.
Posted by: solrev
» RE: Commandments
Posted by: Xynyx
» Semi-literate?
Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle
» RE: Ten Commandments are still the Ten Commandments.
Posted by: jareilly
» Illiterate, hell.
Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle
» RE: Illiterate, hell.
Posted by: jareilly
» RE: Illiterate, hell.
Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle
» RE: Illiterate, hell.
Posted by: bitsfick
» RE: Ten Commandments are still the Ten Commandments.
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: Ten Commandments are still the Ten Commandments.
Posted by: papibear
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Posted by: reval on Jan 30, 2008 3:29 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mike Huckabee, 2008: I believe it's a lot easier to change the Constitution than it would be to change the word of the living God. And that's what we need to do is amend the Constitution so it's in God's standards rather than trying to change God's standards so it lines up with some contemporary view of how we treat each other and how we treat the family.
And thus we are left to understand precisely what religion has finally wrought (or should I say, rot) the United States in 206 years.
~Rev. El
Pastor, WVCSR
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» good to see you here, pastor!
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: good to see you here, pastor!
Posted by: Timba
» RE: good to see you here, pastor!
Posted by: reval
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Posted by: davy on Jan 30, 2008 4:16 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The hangman
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: JohnCWalker on Jan 30, 2008 4:20 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Perhaps before you start attacking someone else's facts you should check your own!
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» Catholic Facts??
Posted by: zipper696
» RE: Catholic Facts??
Posted by: JohnCWalker
» When?
Posted by: chaoslegs
» RE: Catholic Facts??
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: Check your Catholic Facts
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Check your Catholic Facts at the Door...
Posted by: Turiye
» RE: Check your Catholic Facts
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: cherylholmes on Jan 30, 2008 4:25 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe his good buddy Kenneth Copeland can be his VP once the IRS vindicates him.
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» RE: Again, we forget the reason there is a US
Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: Again, we forget the reason there is a US
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Again, we forget the reason there is a US
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: Again, we forget the reason there is a US
Posted by: rhinojos
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Posted by: kenhymes on Jan 30, 2008 4:29 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bad history, misinformed theology, and bad political tactics have weakened the potential impact of this site for the last two years. Isn't it time to give it a rest?
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» RE: and... he's losing, so what's your worry?
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: and... he's losing, so what's your worry?
Posted by: thealltheone
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Posted by: PJT on Jan 30, 2008 4:41 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Uh oh Redux
Posted by: Turiye
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Posted by: Sissy on Jan 30, 2008 5:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Will we ever have any peace?
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» RE: Another new "Concern" -- Holy Crap
Posted by: QQOblivion
» RE: Another new "Concern" -- Holy Crap
Posted by: Sissy
» Best news I've heard all day, actually
Posted by: kroenung58
» RE: Best news I've heard all day, actually
Posted by: Sissy
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Posted by: jmmartin on Jan 30, 2008 5:48 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I asked an acquaintance the other day what version of the Bible his church used (he's Catholic) and, innocently, not really knowing the answer, suggested, "The King James?" He said, "Oh, no, no...." I don't think he knew the name of the one used -- Douay, New Jerusalem, whatever -- but I mused: "You know, it's difficult to say what the prophets actually meant since the Bible has been subject to so many translations."
Which is true. The language spoken in Reb Yeshua's time was Aramaic. The N.T. was in Greek, then translated into Latin, then into various other languages, including the poetic English of the St. James. Robert Anton Wilson pointed up the absurdity of claiming that THE Bible says this or that, when, in fact, Aramaic was written in long sentences sans punctuation. Wilson said that there was no way of knowing whether a particular scripture said, "God is now here" or "God is nowhere."
In contract law, we know the importance of a single word. Let's say a typist was taking down a contractual provision saying, e.g., "This contract will terminate if Bozo takes off his clown white." But the attorney dictating the provision told his secretary, "This contract will not terminate if Bozo takes off his clown white." The typist simply forgot the word "not."
Now, I don't know about you, but if I wanted to put my faith in a book that has undergone numerous translations since the magic words were first uttered by the grand panjandrums, I should think I'd want to get my head examined.
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» Great observations!
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» a few more observations..
Posted by: Drclaw
» RE: Taking Off the Clown White
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: counterpoint on Jan 30, 2008 5:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Check out this text comparing just the three versions of the Decalog:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm and then read Frank Zindler's take http://www.atheists.org/church/hangemall.html
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Posted by: jmooney on Jan 30, 2008 6:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The bible is a slew of books cobbled together thousands of years ago by people struggling to make sense of the world around them in the absence of solid scientific and philosophical inquiry. Some of what they say may be useful to people living today, but much of it is just a bunch of useless drivel.
A great thing about our Constitution is that there were folks who wanted it to say that all power comes from god, specifically, the Christian God. But the founders, for all their many faults, realized this was pure folly. All power is supposed to come from "We the people," although that's certainly not necessarily the case in modern-day (or even revolutionary) America.
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» RE: "...word of the living God."
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: keefus55 on Jan 30, 2008 6:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: To what do Presidents swear?
Posted by: jmooney
» RE: To what do Presidents swear?
Posted by: Turiye
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Posted by: Cybershaman on Jan 30, 2008 6:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Too many people use scripture as a crutch, to do all their thinking for them, or worse as a weapon to beat others over the head with. There have always been people willing to take advantage of others laziness to extort money out of them. Most religions today are just indoctrination programs intended to create some power structure people can identify with and cling to. The eventual enlightenment of the individual has no place in such a system and actually is detrimental to the power structure.
Robert Anton Wilson is correct when he says that the Roman Empire never really collapsed, it just morphed into the 'Holy Roman Empire' to take political advantage of a popular religious movement.
Those who see scripture as the 'infallible word of God' and then try to impose their interpretation on to others as 'the truth' are only trying to validate their own lack of understanding by making others think as they do. Ironically, "The Way" is not the way.
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Posted by: garry minor on Jan 30, 2008 6:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wonder how will he explain that cannabis is also listed as an incense tree in Song of Songs 4:14? Or how he will he explain that God actually asks for cannabis in Isaiah 43:24, and that it's mentioned again in Jeremiah 6:20 and Ezekiel 27:19? How will he explain the 141 references to anointing or 145 for burning incense in the Good Book?
And why if he is such a believer in Christ does he not teach the fact that the early Christians shared their wealth and would be considered communists by today's standards?
I myself have found it quite amazing the response you get from people that once said if it's between Genesis and Revelation it's true. Suddenly given the "Word of God" they will spit and sputter and reinvent God right before your eyes. Suddenly they will instinctually just know better than God! It's amazing!
People will actually believe a 70 year old lie in favor of God's eternal Word.
Cannabis is proven to destroy tumors, prevent Alzheimers, and promote the growth of brain cells. In Canada and Europe they are using it to treat Alzheimers, autism, MS, epilepsy, nausea, migraine, arthritis, depression, chronic pain, diabetes, asthma, emphysema, cystic fibrosis, Herpes, Parkinsons, Huntingtons, Tourettes, Crohns disease, and more. Pretty impressive for something so evil and illegal huh?
All mammals, birds, fish, and reptiles have cannabinoid receptors throughout their body that work independent of those that govern the heart and lungs. This is why cannabis cannot kill you! In the entire history of man not one death can be attributed to cannabis. Is this just a coincidence?
The cannabis seed just happens to be the single most nutritious thing you can eat. Our Government stockpiles it as a strategic food source under Executive order #12919 yet deny it to us today! Do we have a hunger problem in the world today?
Anything made from oil, coal, timber, or cotton can be made ecologically friendly with hemp. All paper, plastics, packaging, textiles, fuels, lubricants, paints, varnishes, plywood, structural components, many cosmetics, health foods, and more can be made with it. Over 25,000 known products. It will grow without most fertilizers, herbicides, or pesticides to foul the soil and water, in climates and conditions other crops wont grow. It is by far the Earths best source for biomass. But you will never hear it! Canvas is Dutch for cannabis. Are we having energy and pollution problems?
Currently the United States is the only major Nation that does not grow industrial hemp. China now grows 40% of the worlds crop and are developing new technology for fuels, textiles, plastics, paper, and more that will keep the United States at an economic and strategic deficit for years. This information also is being censored by our media. We are being left behind as a Nation and we don't even know it!
Having read the Bible many times and tons of other Scripture I will assure you that they are full of people that also thought they knew better than God. Their worship was nothing but rules taught by men! They were wrong then and they will be proven wrong again!
The Word of God is eternal, mans 70 year old ignorant, racist, moronic, antichristian law is only temporary!
The Book say's so!
Food, fuel, shelter, medicine, pleasure spirituality, unity!
The Tree of Life, Kaneh bosm, Cannabis, Hemp!
Garry Minor
Columbus Cannabis Ministry
Columbus Indiana
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» "God's" First Commandment...
Posted by: P.E.A.C.E.
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Posted by: lesliecaplan on Jan 30, 2008 7:02 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: 'graven images.'
Posted by: vasumurti
» RE: Leslie Caplan
Posted by: LeeAnnG
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Posted by: edraven on Jan 30, 2008 7:06 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You're all delusional. Read it again, it is stupid - - makes no sense.
Sorry, I'm just tired of trying to be nice to crazies.
Ed Graham
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» Amen! I mean, right on!
Posted by: thekidde
» RE: Amen! I mean, right on! II
Posted by: jmooney
» RE: Bullsh!t
Posted by: Realliberal87
» RE: Bullsh!t
Posted by: omatravel
» defense
Posted by: openhouse
» RE: defense
Posted by: Astroboy
» RE: Bullsh!t
Posted by: Gungneir
» To: Gungneir
Posted by: edraven
» RE: To: Gungneir
Posted by: Gungneir
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hemnebob on Jan 30, 2008 7:24 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
to show people that his mentality, this country's mentality with regards to separation of church and state, has become way too blurry and needs to re-clarified so they understand what it truly means.
the fact that this man, or crazy evangelist, wants to mirror the constitution with the bible, warrants him to be humiliated and shown to the door.
i bargain that he will leave the race and become another jerry falwell/pat robertson/oral roberts/jerry swaggert, etc and shame himself by registering at target (once again) for gifts to furnish his new mansion that all his foolish follwers will buy...
oh yeah, mike...
don't forget to register as a wedding recipient again!!!
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/11/13/huckabee/
and i also wish that the IRS keep him in their sights as he is truly a taker and not a giver...
crash and burn mikeeeeeee
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» RE: this is why
Posted by: jmooney
» RE: this is why
Posted by: Xynyx
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Posted by: Spock on Jan 30, 2008 7:28 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Not me - he'd be praying instead of actually covering my back whereas a man of science would
Posted by: thekidde
» RE: Not me - he'd be praying instead of actually covering my back whereas a man of science would
Posted by: jeffr
» Ridiculing faith comes FROM experience.
Posted by: thekidde
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Posted by: Elmo409 on Jan 30, 2008 8:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem is that those like the Huckster base their entire world view on fantasy and myth.
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» RE: eality is incompatible with that kind of faith.
Posted by: Realliberal87
» RE: eality is incompatible with that kind of faith.
Posted by: maddasein
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Posted by: leland61 on Jan 30, 2008 8:14 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:…”
This is what the Bible says and It is clearly talking about idols.
Else liberals like Beinhart would have to concede that the interpretation of the first Amendment to the US Constitution actually supports the willy nilly purchase, carrying and use of firearms by anyone – lunatic or sane person. Because this is what it says if you want to truncate it like Larry did the Biblical verse: Amendment II “…the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”
To imagine that the commandment about idols applies to Jesus – well that is of course what fundies do, but we’re going from Hebrew Scripture to Christian views without taking a breath or giving the brain a chance to actually function.
“The point is that in our public debates the Left Wing postulates certain myths, the mainstream media repeats them, or nods along as if they're not full of obvious untruths, and while the Right may howl in outrage, fails to point out the factual errors and then drive them home. Truly stupid policies can only stand on a foundation of falsehoods.”
Having made the appropriate changes to Larry’s closing ex cathedra statement, I agree.
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» RE: Larry might think about engaging his brain before writing.
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Larry might think about engaging his brain before writing.
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Larry might think about engaging his brain before writing.
Posted by: redfrog
» RE: Larry might think about engaging his brain before writing.
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Larry might think about engaging his brain before writing.
Posted by: Curio
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on Jan 30, 2008 9:15 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jesus told us we 'Could do the same as he and Greater'. If you're supreme you damn sure are'nt going to tell folks they can be greater than you. He also told us we have eternal life.
Then he had to 'Walk his Talk'. He had to prove that it did'nt matter how awfully we are beaten,clubbed or killed,we never know death. Remember,he showed us that.
So instead of living in the self-assured peace of knowing the Truth, we fall for the spoon fed misinterpretation of Dead Guy on a Stick unworthyness.
So Mike took liberties with the Bible.Everyone has ever since it was written.
Thank God there is enough of the Truth left in it that 'Those with eyes will see and those with ears shall hear'. Don't worry God Loves the mistaken too.
Draft Jeffrey7 for Prez
www.youtube.com/RevJeffrey7
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Posted by: vasumurti on Jan 30, 2008 10:00 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I also have a problem with pro-life Christians who adhere to a double-standard: i.e., they insist their stand against abortion be applied to everyone, including others who may not share their faith, but then they embrace moral relativism when it suits them, e.g., “Your religion says it’s wrong to kill animals for food, clothing or sport; mine doesn’t.”
There ARE Christian vegetarians and vegans, of whom I have the deepest respect. I don't take it seriously when meat-eaters say, "The Bible permits us to eat meat," because the Bible was also used to uphold human slavery. The Bible can even be used to justify abortion:
Genesis 38:24 says Tamar’s pregnancy was discovered three months after conception, presumably because it was visible at the time. This was positive proof that she was sexually active. Because she was a widow, without a husband, she was assumed to be a prostitute. Her father-in-law, Judah, ordered that she be burned alive for her crime.
If Tamar’s fetuses had been considered to have any value whatsoever, her execution would have been delayed until after their birth. There was no condemnation on Judah for deciding to take this action.
Similarly, Exodus 21:22-24 says if two men are fighting and one injures a pregnant woman and the fetus is killed, he shall repay her according to the degree of injury inflicted upon her, and not the fetus.
Author Brian McKinley, a born-again Christian, sums up the passage as: “Thus we can see that if the baby is lost, it does not require a death sentence—it is not considered murder. But if the woman is lost, it is considered murder and is punished by death.”
Can you imagine 18th century Christians telling abolitionists, "We don't need to free our slaves...That’s 'good works’…we don’t have to ‘work’ for our salvation...All we have to do is accept Jesus...Paul said Jesus told him three times, ‘my grace is sufficient for thee,’ ...we don't need to free our slaves..." ?
Or how about an 18th century Christian preacher who tells his followers, “You don’t have to free your slaves…All you have to do is accept Jesus.” ?
None of the religious arguments pro-life Christians make to justify the status quo with regards to animals would make any sense if this were 300 years ago, and we were discussing the abolition of human slavery instead of animal slavery, and I think the same holds true with regards to abortion. I'm surprised pro-choice Christians haven't tried to deny rights to the unborn using the same religious arguments pro-life Christians use to deny rights to animals!
We really live in a secular society. Secular arguments are religiously neutral and are thus applicable to everyone, including atheists and agnostics. The pro-life movement ALREADY HAS the support of organized religion. Instead of preaching to the choir, i.e., wasting time with religion, pro-lifers should focus on prenatal development, genetics, DNA, RNA, etc. to make their case to mainstream secular society.
Again, the pro-life movement desperately needs religious diversity. It's already stereotyped as being predominantly Christian (Catholic, fundamentalist, born again, etc.) and will need to become completely secular as it attempts to convince the courts, legislatures, universities, philosophers, ethicists, etc. that human zygotes and embryos should be regarded as legal persons.
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» RE: abortion, the Bible, and the pro-life movement
Posted by: Gungneir
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Posted by: willymack on Jan 30, 2008 10:49 AM
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Posted by: maxpayne on Jan 30, 2008 11:05 AM
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» RE: Mike Huckabee is nothing more than a phoney cultural "populist"
Posted by: CatDad
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Posted by: 911truth on Jan 30, 2008 1:26 PM
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» RE: 911 inside job
Posted by: Gungneir
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jan 30, 2008 2:00 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: LIGION HAS NO PLACE IN GOVERNMENT OR NOT PAYING TAXES.
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: LIGION HAS NO PLACE IN GOVERNMENT yet the CONSTITUTION DOES
Posted by: Turiye
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Posted by: yantacaw on Jan 30, 2008 4:18 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Such thinking is a cultivated sickeness of the mind and emotions, spread like a disease by commonly-provable liars whose age-old lies are in turn enabled by failing cultures, like ours, whose corrupt power fonts work to legitimate unthinking acceptance of Authority (religious and/or political) among the citizens, for various, and always nefarious, anti-democratic end goals.
By contrast: If a political candidate in most-any Western European country, today, spouts such Huckabeean religious gibberish, average voters there immediately understand it for what it really is: Manipulative claptrap, propagated by emotionally immature individuals who remain unable to even cognitively toilet-train their own, personal existential fears, let alone be able to wisely hold official power over other people and the workings of a democratic government.
In Europe, a Huckabee-type candidate doesn't even rise high enough (politically) to ever get a chance to be laughed off the national stage. He/She is, in most cases, democratically eliminated by a far less hypnotized electorate at the local level, for obvious delusional thinking.
Granted: It's not silly or delusional for any human to speculatively posit a metaphysical First Cause, or to seek some kind of Higher-grounding for human moral law.
But it will always be a bogus manoeuver (until a Doctrinal God actually comes down out of the sky), for to any human (especially a political candidate) to claim
religious-cum-political Truths about human matters, while offering no more proof than his/her subjective belief in the Bible or the Koran or in any other font of "Received Knowledge."
It's precisely because much of the Moslem world still, hypnotically, reveres the elistist bullshit of "Received Knowledge" from the Koran that most Moslem societies remain civilly primitive and politically elitist.
And, to the extent America's Religious Right intends that the same kind of Received [Christian] Authority should rule human policital cognition here at home, we Americans, too, have need to fight against our own 'Taliban' and their domestic enablers.
No matter that Huckabee is now, arguably, out of the presidential picture: American religious fundamentalism remains a form of destructive mass hypnosis, the cause and cure of which must be the daily concen of all un-hypnotized citizens.
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» RE: Why are Americans so Hypnotized?
Posted by: Gungneir
» RE: Why are Americans so Hypnotized?
Posted by: yantacaw
» RE: Why are Americans so Hypnotized?
Posted by: Gungneir
» RE: Why are Americans so Hypnotized?
Posted by: yantacaw
» RE: Why are Americans so Hypnotized?
Posted by: Gungneir
» RE: Why are Americans so Hypnotized?
Posted by: yantacaw
» RE: Why are Americans so Hypnotized?
Posted by: Gungneir
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Posted by: maddasein on Jan 30, 2008 7:00 PM
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Posted by: fdgsr on Jan 30, 2008 8:56 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyway, the story is that as Moses descended the mountain after being given three plaques by God, each with five commandments, Moses stumbled over a rock and five of commandments were broken on the spot before they could even be delivered to the Children of Israel. When the Children of Israel received the other ten, they proceeded, as children do, to disobey the Father. The rest of the commandments were broken within a week and Moses was pissed off and uttered some choice epithets, then tossed the pieces in the Sinai. He ranted and raved to the former slaves and threatened them until they wound up wondering in the desert for 40 years. It is a mystery that any of the commandments got into print, because it is doubtful that Moses could read the language they were chiseled in.
God told Moses, "I am what I am." At least Muslims understand that and do not make any images of God, or any representation in gold or stone, let alone elevating an illegitimate kid to take over the function of God, from his Heavenly Father. Muhammad paraphrased God's statement to Moses, "I am what I am." further explaining it to mean that "There is no other God except the one and only Allah. Muhammad is not a God, son of God, or a holy ghost, but a Prophet only."
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Posted by: JayHaden on Jan 31, 2008 12:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: WOW WHAT STUPIDITY
Posted by: maddasein
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Posted by: funnyguy on Feb 1, 2008 9:40 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I recall an interview with George Bush many years ago, when he was pronouncing his religiosity, the interviewer, quite innocently, asked him, "What is your favorite story from the Bible?" The moron couldn't respond, he couldn't remember one fucking lesson from the Bible, yet guys like Bush and Huckabee want to define Christianity for the rest of us AND MAKE US LIVE BY THEIR DEFINITIONS. Of course, the only lesson Bush learned from the Bible was to stop snorting cocaine and stop being a blackout drunk. A good lesson for him, I suppose, but some of us don't need that lesson enshrined in the U.S. Constitution
I look forward to more writing by the author.
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Posted by: durruti on Feb 2, 2008 4:42 PM
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Posted by: thealltheone on Feb 2, 2008 4:51 PM
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Posted by: myersqi on Feb 3, 2008 4:49 PM
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Posted by: willyd1962 on Feb 4, 2008 2:18 PM
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» RE: WOW!!!!
Posted by: jc1234
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Posted by: Lector on Jan 30, 2008 12:51 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For the Protestants, dispensationalism was just another clever excuse for telling people what the Bible meant, so it began all over again. Now any two-bit huckster could step in and tell you that the Lord spoke with him last night. Enter the next huckster, Huckabee who’s going to tell us ignorant folks the Lord wants us to change the Constitution. Why doesn’t he just say it, that the Ten Commandments = US Constitution. Cannot help but continue the mantra that organized religion poisons everything. What an amazing country, how a man like Huckabee, affiliated with a cult church like the Westboro Baptist Church receives legitimacy from a major “non-biased” network like CNN.
Pointless
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» RE: the Lord spoke to Huckabee
Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: the Lord spoke to Huckabee
Posted by: Lector
» RE: the Lord spoke to Huckabee
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: the Lord spoke to Huckabee
Posted by: reval
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Posted by: Jbuuty on Jan 30, 2008 1:53 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Leave Biblical Interpretation to others
Posted by: El Hombre Malo
» RE: Leave Biblical Interpretation to others
Posted by: ohb0b
» RE: "Universal Truths"
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: "Universal Truths"
Posted by: ohb0b
» RE: Leave Biblical Interpretation to others
Posted by: poetac
» RE: Leave Biblical Interpretation to others
Posted by: xenocyd
» RE: Leave Biblical Interpretation to others
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Leave Biblical Interpretation to others
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: Prejudice or Postjudice?
Posted by: factbased
» RE: Leave Biblical Interpretation to others???
Posted by: dkm
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Posted by: bitsfick on Jan 30, 2008 3:25 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Ten Commandments are still the Ten Commandments.
Posted by: EJ
» Only three commandments are legal
Posted by: Sushi
» RE Another Commandment You BETTER listen to, too!
Posted by: Sissy
» RE: Ten Commandments are still the Ten Commandments.
Posted by: solrev
» RE: Commandments
Posted by: Xynyx
» Semi-literate?
Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle
» RE: Ten Commandments are still the Ten Commandments.
Posted by: jareilly
» Illiterate, hell.
Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle
» RE: Illiterate, hell.
Posted by: jareilly
» RE: Illiterate, hell.
Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle
» RE: Illiterate, hell.
Posted by: bitsfick
» RE: Ten Commandments are still the Ten Commandments.
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: Ten Commandments are still the Ten Commandments.
Posted by: papibear
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Posted by: reval on Jan 30, 2008 3:29 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mike Huckabee, 2008: I believe it's a lot easier to change the Constitution than it would be to change the word of the living God. And that's what we need to do is amend the Constitution so it's in God's standards rather than trying to change God's standards so it lines up with some contemporary view of how we treat each other and how we treat the family.
And thus we are left to understand precisely what religion has finally wrought (or should I say, rot) the United States in 206 years.
~Rev. El
Pastor, WVCSR
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» good to see you here, pastor!
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: good to see you here, pastor!
Posted by: Timba
» RE: good to see you here, pastor!
Posted by: reval
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Posted by: davy on Jan 30, 2008 4:16 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The hangman
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: JohnCWalker on Jan 30, 2008 4:20 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Perhaps before you start attacking someone else's facts you should check your own!
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» Catholic Facts??
Posted by: zipper696
» RE: Catholic Facts??
Posted by: JohnCWalker
» When?
Posted by: chaoslegs
» RE: Catholic Facts??
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: Check your Catholic Facts
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Check your Catholic Facts at the Door...
Posted by: Turiye
» RE: Check your Catholic Facts
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: cherylholmes on Jan 30, 2008 4:25 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe his good buddy Kenneth Copeland can be his VP once the IRS vindicates him.
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» RE: Again, we forget the reason there is a US
Posted by: aislinnluv
» RE: Again, we forget the reason there is a US
Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Again, we forget the reason there is a US
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: Again, we forget the reason there is a US
Posted by: rhinojos
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Posted by: kenhymes on Jan 30, 2008 4:29 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bad history, misinformed theology, and bad political tactics have weakened the potential impact of this site for the last two years. Isn't it time to give it a rest?
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» RE: and... he's losing, so what's your worry?
Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: and... he's losing, so what's your worry?
Posted by: thealltheone
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Posted by: PJT on Jan 30, 2008 4:41 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Uh oh Redux
Posted by: Turiye
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Posted by: Sissy on Jan 30, 2008 5:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Will we ever have any peace?
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» RE: Another new "Concern" -- Holy Crap
Posted by: QQOblivion
» RE: Another new "Concern" -- Holy Crap
Posted by: Sissy
» Best news I've heard all day, actually
Posted by: kroenung58
» RE: Best news I've heard all day, actually
Posted by: Sissy
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Posted by: jmmartin on Jan 30, 2008 5:48 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I asked an acquaintance the other day what version of the Bible his church used (he's Catholic) and, innocently, not really knowing the answer, suggested, "The King James?" He said, "Oh, no, no...." I don't think he knew the name of the one used -- Douay, New Jerusalem, whatever -- but I mused: "You know, it's difficult to say what the prophets actually meant since the Bible has been subject to so many translations."
Which is true. The language spoken in Reb Yeshua's time was Aramaic. The N.T. was in Greek, then translated into Latin, then into various other languages, including the poetic English of the St. James. Robert Anton Wilson pointed up the absurdity of claiming that THE Bible says this or that, when, in fact, Aramaic was written in long sentences sans punctuation. Wilson said that there was no way of knowing whether a particular scripture said, "God is now here" or "God is nowhere."
In contract law, we know the importance of a single word. Let's say a typist was taking down a contractual provision saying, e.g., "This contract will terminate if Bozo takes off his clown white." But the attorney dictating the provision told his secretary, "This contract will not terminate if Bozo takes off his clown white." The typist simply forgot the word "not."
Now, I don't know about you, but if I wanted to put my faith in a book that has undergone numerous translations since the magic words were first uttered by the grand panjandrums, I should think I'd want to get my head examined.
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» Great observations!
Posted by: LeeAnnG
» a few more observations..
Posted by: Drclaw
» RE: Taking Off the Clown White
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: counterpoint on Jan 30, 2008 5:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Check out this text comparing just the three versions of the Decalog:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/crt/whichcom.htm and then read Frank Zindler's take http://www.atheists.org/church/hangemall.html
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Posted by: jmooney on Jan 30, 2008 6:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The bible is a slew of books cobbled together thousands of years ago by people struggling to make sense of the world around them in the absence of solid scientific and philosophical inquiry. Some of what they say may be useful to people living today, but much of it is just a bunch of useless drivel.
A great thing about our Constitution is that there were folks who wanted it to say that all power comes from god, specifically, the Christian God. But the founders, for all their many faults, realized this was pure folly. All power is supposed to come from "We the people," although that's certainly not necessarily the case in modern-day (or even revolutionary) America.
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» RE: "...word of the living God."
Posted by: Bibsi
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Posted by: keefus55 on Jan 30, 2008 6:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: To what do Presidents swear?
Posted by: jmooney
» RE: To what do Presidents swear?
Posted by: Turiye
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Posted by: Cybershaman on Jan 30, 2008 6:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Too many people use scripture as a crutch, to do all their thinking for them, or worse as a weapon to beat others over the head with. There have always been people willing to take advantage of others laziness to extort money out of them. Most religions today are just indoctrination programs intended to create some power structure people can identify with and cling to. The eventual enlightenment of the individual has no place in such a system and actually is detrimental to the power structure.
Robert Anton Wilson is correct when he says that the Roman Empire never really collapsed, it just morphed into the 'Holy Roman Empire' to take political advantage of a popular religious movement.
Those who see scripture as the 'infallible word of God' and then try to impose their interpretation on to others as 'the truth' are only trying to validate their own lack of understanding by making others think as they do. Ironically, "The Way" is not the way.
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Posted by: garry minor on Jan 30, 2008 6:41 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wonder how will he explain that cannabis is also listed as an incense tree in Song of Songs 4:14? Or how he will he explain that God actually asks for cannabis in Isaiah 43:24, and that it's mentioned again in Jeremiah 6:20 and Ezekiel 27:19? How will he explain the 141 references to anointing or 145 for burning incense in the Good Book?
And why if he is such a believer in Christ does he not teach the fact that the early Christians shared their wealth and would be considered communists by today's standards?
I myself have found it quite amazing the response you get from people that once said if it's between Genesis and Revelation it's true. Suddenly given the "Word of God" they will spit and sputter and reinvent God right before your eyes. Suddenly they will instinctually just know better than God! It's amazing!
People will actually believe a 70 year old lie in favor of God's eternal Word.
Cannabis is proven to destroy tumors, prevent Alzheimers, and promote the growth of brain cells. In Canada and Europe they are using it to treat Alzheimers, autism, MS, epilepsy, nausea, migraine, arthritis, depression, chronic pain, diabetes, asthma, emphysema, cystic fibrosis, Herpes, Parkinsons, Huntingtons, Tourettes, Crohns disease, and more. Pretty impressive for something so evil and illegal huh?
All mammals, birds, fish, and reptiles have cannabinoid receptors throughout their body that work independent of those that govern the heart and lungs. This is why cannabis cannot kill you! In the entire history of man not one death can be attributed to cannabis. Is this just a coincidence?
The cannabis seed just happens to be the single most nutritious thing you can eat. Our Government stockpiles it as a strategic food source under Executive order #12919 yet deny it to us today! Do we have a hunger problem in the world today?
Anything made from oil, coal, timber, or cotton can be made ecologically friendly with hemp. All paper, plastics, packaging, textiles, fuels, lubricants, paints, varnishes, plywood, structural components, many cosmetics, health foods, and more can be made with it. Over 25,000 known products. It will grow without most fertilizers, herbicides, or pesticides to foul the soil and water, in climates and conditions other crops wont grow. It is by far the Earths best source for biomass. But you will never hear it! Canvas is Dutch for cannabis. Are we having energy and pollution problems?
Currently the United States is the only major Nation that does not grow industrial hemp. China now grows 40% of the worlds crop and are developing new technology for fuels, textiles, plastics, paper, and more that will keep the United States at an economic and strategic deficit for years. This information also is being censored by our media. We are being left behind as a Nation and we don't even know it!
Having read the Bible many times and tons of other Scripture I will assure you that they are full of people that also thought they knew better than God. Their worship was nothing but rules taught by men! They were wrong then and they will be proven wrong again!
The Word of God is eternal, mans 70 year old ignorant, racist, moronic, antichristian law is only temporary!
The Book say's so!
Food, fuel, shelter, medicine, pleasure spirituality, unity!
The Tree of Life, Kaneh bosm, Cannabis, Hemp!
Garry Minor
Columbus Cannabis Ministry
Columbus Indiana
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» "God's" First Commandment...
Posted by: P.E.A.C.E.
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Posted by: lesliecaplan on Jan 30, 2008 7:02 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: 'graven images.'
Posted by: vasumurti
» RE: Leslie Caplan
Posted by: LeeAnnG
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Posted by: edraven on Jan 30, 2008 7:06 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You're all delusional. Read it again, it is stupid - - makes no sense.
Sorry, I'm just tired of trying to be nice to crazies.
Ed Graham
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» Amen! I mean, right on!
Posted by: thekidde
» RE: Amen! I mean, right on! II
Posted by: jmooney
» RE: Bullsh!t
Posted by: Realliberal87
» RE: Bullsh!t
Posted by: omatravel
» defense
Posted by: openhouse
» RE: defense
Posted by: Astroboy
» RE: Bullsh!t
Posted by: Gungneir
» To: Gungneir
Posted by: edraven
» RE: To: Gungneir
Posted by: Gungneir
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hemnebob on Jan 30, 2008 7:24 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
to show people that his mentality, this country's mentality with regards to separation of church and state, has become way too blurry and needs to re-clarified so they understand what it truly means.
the fact that this man, or crazy evangelist, wants to mirror the constitution with the bible, warrants him to be humiliated and shown to the door.
i bargain that he will leave the race and become another jerry falwell/pat robertson/oral roberts/jerry swaggert, etc and shame himself by registering at target (once again) for gifts to furnish his new mansion that all his foolish follwers will buy...
oh yeah, mike...
don't forget to register as a wedding recipient again!!!
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/11/13/huckabee/
and i also wish that the IRS keep him in their sights as he is truly a taker and not a giver...
crash and burn mikeeeeeee
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» RE: this is why
Posted by: jmooney
» RE: this is why
Posted by: Xynyx
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Posted by: Spock on Jan 30, 2008 7:28 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Not me - he'd be praying instead of actually covering my back whereas a man of science would
Posted by: thekidde
» RE: Not me - he'd be praying instead of actually covering my back whereas a man of science would
Posted by: jeffr
» Ridiculing faith comes FROM experience.
Posted by: thekidde
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Elmo409 on Jan 30, 2008 8:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem is that those like the Huckster base their entire world view on fantasy and myth.
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» RE: eality is incompatible with that kind of faith.
Posted by: Realliberal87
» RE: eality is incompatible with that kind of faith.
Posted by: maddasein
Comments are closed-
Posted by: leland61 on Jan 30, 2008 8:14 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
“Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them:…”
This is what the Bible says and It is clearly talking about idols.
Else liberals like Beinhart would have to concede that the interpretation of the first Amendment to the US Constitution actually supports the willy nilly purchase, carrying and use of firearms by anyone – lunatic or sane person. Because this is what it says if you want to truncate it like Larry did the Biblical verse: Amendment II “…the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”
To imagine that the commandment about idols applies to Jesus – well that is of course what fundies do, but we’re going from Hebrew Scripture to Christian views without taking a breath or giving the brain a chance to actually function.
“The point is that in our public debates the Left Wing postulates certain myths, the mainstream media repeats them, or nods along as if they're not full of obvious untruths, and while the Right may howl in outrage, fails to point out the factual errors and then drive them home. Truly stupid policies can only stand on a foundation of falsehoods.”
Having made the appropriate changes to Larry’s closing ex cathedra statement, I agree.
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» RE: Larry might think about engaging his brain before writing.
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Larry might think about engaging his brain before writing.
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Larry might think about engaging his brain before writing.
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» RE: Larry might think about engaging his brain before writing.
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: Larry might think about engaging his brain before writing.
Posted by: Curio
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on Jan 30, 2008 9:15 AM
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Jesus told us we 'Could do the same as he and Greater'. If you're supreme you damn sure are'nt going to tell folks they can be greater than you. He also told us we have eternal life.
Then he had to 'Walk his Talk'. He had to prove that it did'nt matter how awfully we are beaten,clubbed or killed,we never know death. Remember,he showed us that.
So instead of living in the self-assured peace of knowing the Truth, we fall for the spoon fed misinterpretation of Dead Guy on a Stick unworthyness.
So Mike took liberties with the Bible.Everyone has ever since it was written.
Thank God there is enough of the Truth left in it that 'Those with eyes will see and those with ears shall hear'. Don't worry God Loves the mistaken too.
Draft Jeffrey7 for Prez
www.youtube.com/RevJeffrey7
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Posted by: vasumurti on Jan 30, 2008 10:00 AM
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I also have a problem with pro-life Christians who adhere to a double-standard: i.e., they insist their stand against abortion be applied to everyone, including others who may not share their faith, but then they embrace moral relativism when it suits them, e.g., “Your religion says it’s wrong to kill animals for food, clothing or sport; mine doesn’t.”
There ARE Christian vegetarians and vegans, of whom I have the deepest respect. I don't take it seriously when meat-eaters say, "The Bible permits us to eat meat," because the Bible was also used to uphold human slavery. The Bible can even be used to justify abortion:
Genesis 38:24 says Tamar’s pregnancy was discovered three months after conception, presumably because it was visible at the time. This was positive proof that she was sexually active. Because she was a widow, without a husband, she was assumed to be a prostitute. Her father-in-law, Judah, ordered that she be burned alive for her crime.
If Tamar’s fetuses had been considered to have any value whatsoever, her execution would have been delayed until after their birth. There was no condemnation on Judah for deciding to take this action.
Similarly, Exodus 21:22-24 says if two men are fighting and one injures a pregnant woman and the fetus is killed, he shall repay her according to the degree of injury inflicted upon her, and not the fetus.
Author Brian McKinley, a born-again Christian, sums up the passage as: “Thus we can see that if the baby is lost, it does not require a death sentence—it is not considered murder. But if the woman is lost, it is considered murder and is punished by death.”
Can you imagine 18th century Christians telling abolitionists, "We don't need to free our slaves...That’s 'good works’…we don’t have to ‘work’ for our salvation...All we have to do is accept Jesus...Paul said Jesus told him three times, ‘my grace is sufficient for thee,’ ...we don't need to free our slaves..." ?
Or how about an 18th century Christian preacher who tells his followers, “You don’t have to free your slaves…All you have to do is accept Jesus.” ?
None of the religious arguments pro-life Christians make to justify the status quo with regards to animals would make any sense if this were 300 years ago, and we were discussing the abolition of human slavery instead of animal slavery, and I think the same holds true with regards to abortion. I'm surprised pro-choice Christians haven't tried to deny rights to the unborn using the same religious arguments pro-life Christians use to deny rights to animals!
We really live in a secular society. Secular arguments are religiously neutral and are thus applicable to everyone, including atheists and agnostics. The pro-life movement ALREADY HAS the support of organized religion. Instead of preaching to the choir, i.e., wasting time with religion, pro-lifers should focus on prenatal development, genetics, DNA, RNA, etc. to make their case to mainstream secular society.
Again, the pro-life movement desperately needs religious diversity. It's already stereotyped as being predominantly Christian (Catholic, fundamentalist, born again, etc.) and will need to become completely secular as it attempts to convince the courts, legislatures, universities, philosophers, ethicists, etc. that human zygotes and embryos should be regarded as legal persons.
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» RE: abortion, the Bible, and the pro-life movement
Posted by: Gungneir
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Posted by: willymack on Jan 30, 2008 10:49 AM
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Posted by: maxpayne on Jan 30, 2008 11:05 AM
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» RE: Mike Huckabee is nothing more than a phoney cultural "populist"
Posted by: CatDad
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Posted by: 911truth on Jan 30, 2008 1:26 PM
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» RE: 911 inside job
Posted by: Gungneir
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jan 30, 2008 2:00 PM
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» RE: LIGION HAS NO PLACE IN GOVERNMENT OR NOT PAYING TAXES.
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: LIGION HAS NO PLACE IN GOVERNMENT yet the CONSTITUTION DOES
Posted by: Turiye
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Posted by: yantacaw on Jan 30, 2008 4:18 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Such thinking is a cultivated sickeness of the mind and emotions, spread like a disease by commonly-provable liars whose age-old lies are in turn enabled by failing cultures, like ours, whose corrupt power fonts work to legitimate unthinking acceptance of Authority (religious and/or political) among the citizens, for various, and always nefarious, anti-democratic end goals.
By contrast: If a political candidate in most-any Western European country, today, spouts such Huckabeean religious gibberish, average voters there immediately understand it for what it really is: Manipulative claptrap, propagated by emotionally immature individuals who remain unable to even cognitively toilet-train their own, personal existential fears, let alone be able to wisely hold official power over other people and the workings of a democratic government.
In Europe, a Huckabee-type candidate doesn't even rise high enough (politically) to ever get a chance to be laughed off the national stage. He/She is, in most cases, democratically eliminated by a far less hypnotized electorate at the local level, for obvious delusional thinking.
Granted: It's not silly or delusional for any human to speculatively posit a metaphysical First Cause, or to seek some kind of Higher-grounding for human moral law.
But it will always be a bogus manoeuver (until a Doctrinal God actually comes down out of the sky), for to any human (especially a political candidate) to claim
religious-cum-political Truths about human matters, while offering no more proof than his/her subjective belief in the Bible or the Koran or in any other font of "Received Knowledge."
It's precisely because much of the Moslem world still, hypnotically, reveres the elistist bullshit of "Received Knowledge" from the Koran that most Moslem societies remain civilly primitive and politically elitist.
And, to the extent America's Religious Right intends that the same kind of Received [Christian] Authority should rule human policital cognition here at home, we Americans, too, have need to fight against our own 'Taliban' and their domestic enablers.
No matter that Huckabee is now, arguably, out of the presidential picture: American religious fundamentalism remains a form of destructive mass hypnosis, the cause and cure of which must be the daily concen of all un-hypnotized citizens.
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» RE: Why are Americans so Hypnotized?
Posted by: Gungneir
» RE: Why are Americans so Hypnotized?
Posted by: yantacaw
» RE: Why are Americans so Hypnotized?
Posted by: Gungneir
» RE: Why are Americans so Hypnotized?
Posted by: yantacaw
» RE: Why are Americans so Hypnotized?
Posted by: Gungneir
» RE: Why are Americans so Hypnotized?
Posted by: yantacaw
» RE: Why are Americans so Hypnotized?
Posted by: Gungneir
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Posted by: maddasein on Jan 30, 2008 7:00 PM
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Posted by: fdgsr on Jan 30, 2008 8:56 PM
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Anyway, the story is that as Moses descended the mountain after being given three plaques by God, each with five commandments, Moses stumbled over a rock and five of commandments were broken on the spot before they could even be delivered to the Children of Israel. When the Children of Israel received the other ten, they proceeded, as children do, to disobey the Father. The rest of the commandments were broken within a week and Moses was pissed off and uttered some choice epithets, then tossed the pieces in the Sinai. He ranted and raved to the former slaves and threatened them until they wound up wondering in the desert for 40 years. It is a mystery that any of the commandments got into print, because it is doubtful that Moses could read the language they were chiseled in.
God told Moses, "I am what I am." At least Muslims understand that and do not make any images of God, or any representation in gold or stone, let alone elevating an illegitimate kid to take over the function of God, from his Heavenly Father. Muhammad paraphrased God's statement to Moses, "I am what I am." further explaining it to mean that "There is no other God except the one and only Allah. Muhammad is not a God, son of God, or a holy ghost, but a Prophet only."
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Posted by: JayHaden on Jan 31, 2008 12:24 AM
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» RE: WOW WHAT STUPIDITY
Posted by: maddasein
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Posted by: funnyguy on Feb 1, 2008 9:40 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I recall an interview with George Bush many years ago, when he was pronouncing his religiosity, the interviewer, quite innocently, asked him, "What is your favorite story from the Bible?" The moron couldn't respond, he couldn't remember one fucking lesson from the Bible, yet guys like Bush and Huckabee want to define Christianity for the rest of us AND MAKE US LIVE BY THEIR DEFINITIONS. Of course, the only lesson Bush learned from the Bible was to stop snorting cocaine and stop being a blackout drunk. A good lesson for him, I suppose, but some of us don't need that lesson enshrined in the U.S. Constitution
I look forward to more writing by the author.
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Posted by: durruti on Feb 2, 2008 4:42 PM
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Posted by: thealltheone on Feb 2, 2008 4:51 PM
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Posted by: myersqi on Feb 3, 2008 4:49 PM
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Posted by: willyd1962 on Feb 4, 2008 2:18 PM
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» RE: WOW!!!!
Posted by: jc1234
Vancouver's Games Will Be the Gayest Olympics Ever
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