COMMENTS: 152
God's Profits: Faith, Fraud and the GOP Crusade for Values Voters
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Inside the Trinity Christian Church in Irving, Texas, a crowd starts gathering in the afternoon for a Victory Healing and Miracle Service that is to begin at 7 p.m. that evening. People have traveled from as far away as Ohio and Arkansas and Georgia to participate. Most are waiting in the perimeter lobby of the church, camping out with pillows and Bibles, ordering pizza, and waiting for an event that has been hyped on Christian television for months. I approach one woman, an African American member of televangelist Rod Parsley's World Harvest Church in Columbus, Ohio. Judging from her clothes, the woman could scarcely afford the plane ticket she bought to see a performance of the preaching phenomenon whose services she can attend three times a week at home in Columbus. She's almost in a trance, barely able to focus on me or what I am asking her, and she brushes me aside as I inquire about her journey. People are waiting to see healings and miracles; Parsley claims a quarter of a million people have mailed in prayer cloths (and money) so that he could put his "anointing" on them. Once returned to the donor, the prayer cloths can be used to heal anything in a broken life, from depression to cancer to joblessness to debt.
Trinity Christian Church is owned by the Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN), the largest Christian television network in the world, and is on the grounds of the Irving outpost of the Orange County, California-based conglomerate that monopolizes the Christian airwaves with its Word of Faith message of health and wealth. As a movement, not a denomination, Word of Faith has no membership or doctrinal requirements, but its tenets have become embeded in the late-twentieth-century nondenominational movement known as neo-Pentecostalism. Yet while it presents itself as a benign message of hope and purpose, critics of Word of Faith charge that it is a heresy that robs its followers of spiritual fulfillment, an affinity fraud that robs them of their money, and a distortion of the Scriptures, run by authoritarian preachers who rob their followers of their autonomy.
The main tenets of Word of Faith are revelation knowledge, through which the believer derives knowledge directly from God, rather than from the senses; identification, through which the believer is inhabited by God and is another incarnation of Jesus; positive confession, or the power of the believer to call things into existence; the right of believers to divine health; and the right of believers to divine wealth. The believer, a "little god," is anointed and therefore can reject reason in favor of revelation, a "higher knowledge that contradicts the senses." It is through revelation knowledge that the Word of Faith movement has created its alternate universe in which rational thought is rejected and where the media, intellectual thought, science, and any type of critical thinking are scorned. Drawing on the Pentecostal tradition of casting out devils, pursuits associated with the Enlightenment are denounced as the work of Satan.
Parsley has emerged as a leading figure in Christian conservative politics and is a frequent visitor to the Bush White House and Capitol Hill. Many credit him with the GOP victory in his native Ohio in 2004, a result that gave Bush the necessary electoral votes to capture the White House a second time. Although Parsley was well-known in Word of Faith circles for years from his church and his television program, Breakthrough, he became a nationally recognized name in 2004 for his relentless campaigning for Ohio's gay marriage ban.
Well before the service is scheduled to start, the church sanctuary fills up. The best seats are reserved for pastors affiliated with Pars¬ley's franchise, the World Harvest Church Ministerial Fellowship. Soon church employees are shuttling people to overflow rooms inside the TBN studios a couple of parking lots away. I am crammed to the point of immobility in an upper-balcony pew of the four-thousand-seat sanctuary. The praise and worship bands are louder than I've ever experienced at any Word of Faith service, hyping the crowd into a frenzy and making it impossible to talk to anyone around me. People are dancing and singing, reaching their arms out toward the stage and holding their palms cupped upward, all set to receive the anointing.
The overamplified pop music of the Crabb Family, a band frequently featured on TBN programming, is nothing compared to the collective shriek of thousands of whistles that Parsley's assistants pass out in buckets. The whistles, it turns out, are surrogate shofars (the ram's horn blown in synagogues on high holidays) because, Parsley tells us, he couldn't find actual shofars. Parsley has a real shofar for himself, and after he blows it, he anoints himself the arbiter identified in the Gospel of Luke who will announce Jubilee. It's Jubilee, Parsley says with his characteristic absence of humility, "when the prophetic voice announces it. And I'm here to tell you, it's Jubilee." As pandemonium breaks out in the crowd, Parsley continues: "It's time for a perpetual party. Your long face is out of order. Your depression has got to go. . . . No more quiet services, mundane Christianity has got to go. Shout it, it's Jubilee!" He implores his audience to blow their whistles, which he claims can miraculously heal; he proclaims, "All tumors, swallowing problems, and cataracts are healed as people blow the whistles."
Parsley pays homage to his TBN patrons, who are broadcasting the service, saying "Let's thank God for Paul and Jan for making this night possible. We love you." The Crouches, who first hosted Parsley on their programming in 1983, when he was only twenty-six years old, have proclaimed Parsley a prophet who "challenged God's people to break through beyond status quo Christianity - invade enemy territory and overthrow the kingdom of darkness." Parsley recounts that Jan Crouch had "something wrong with her throat for years and God gave her a tremendous healing" after she used one of Parsley's prayer cloths.
Over the course of the evening, Parsley will slay people in the Holy Spirit, lay hands on them, and profess to heal their cancer, homosexuality, and financial problems. He will walk over the pews as people sway and fall to the floor. He will take credit for a woman's new job as a marketing and database manager, which she says she got after she sent Parsley her last $6. He will claim, with two members of his congregation as his witnesses, that he cured their adopted baby who was born without a brain. "His head was the size of his shoulders, nothing but water in that globe," Parsley boasts. "They brought him into service, we laid hands on him. The six o'clock news carried it; the eleven o'clock news carried it. Here are the brain scans. Here's the child with no brain. Here is the child after the prayer with a fully developed, completely normal functioning brain."
Parsley recognizes that for many people his faith healing doesn't quite jibe with his recently acquired -- and carefully cultivated -- status as a political player. In a relatively short time, Parsley has hoisted himself onto the national political stage. He has been named one of the fifty most influential Christians in America and one of the ten most influential GOP religious kingmakers shaping the 2008 race for the White House. In a television broadcast a week before this service, Parsley claimed to be "the only preacher brave enough to be in the White House one day and praying over prayer cloths the next, casting out devils." But his in-your-face attitude spills over into a nationally televised nose-thumbing at his critics, in which he showcases the Word of Faith revelation knowledge. As one Word of Faith follower told me, "In a nutshell, that's what faith is. Believing the word instead of the circumstances." As a result, scholarship, journalism, and other non-biblical pursuits of truth are derided.
Parsley, a Bible college dropout, notes that his political celebrity has mushroomed despite the efforts of skeptics. "Somebody said to me the other day, 'You are the strangest person I've ever seen. . . . One day you're in the halls of Congress and the next day you're shouting and screaming in other tongues and laying hands on prayer cloths.'" Parsley sneers at his imaginary critics. "That's because I don't determine my theology based on my experience. Don't let anybody back you down on truth. Don't let anybody stare over the brim of their glasses with a circle of smoke enwreathing their head. Don't let anybody sitting on a university or college campus or behind a news desk somewhere intimidate you from truth. Once you know you've got ahold of absolute truth, you let nothing turn your plow." The crowd cheers wildly, and people are speaking in tongues, but the din is eclipsed by the earsplitting screech of the whistles.
Like Bush's 2000 campaign slogan, Compassionate Conser¬vatism, Word of Faith preachers often give lip service to their church's community service projects yet worship at the altar of hyperindividualism and unregulated capitalism. Many of these televangelists spend millions of dollars of church funds on luxury jets, take huge salaries out of church coffers to build themselves mansions, and treat themselves to other luxuries like clothes, vacations, and high-end dinners. They use the free advertising of their churches and television shows to sell countless books, tapes, and DVDs of their sermons, raking in millions that go into for-profit church-related enterprises that line their own pockets. All of this activity is rationalized as obeying Jesus' command to spread the Gospel throughout the world. Yet it is all possible precisely because there is virtually no oversight of the preachers' activities. Tax-exempt churches do not file tax returns and are under no obligation to divulge their finances to donors or the public. Where profit-driven church meets the cornerstone of conservative economic ideology, televangelists have been enriching themselves in an unregulated marketplace trading on God, the cult of personality, and American dreams of riches and success.
Although some observers of the 2006 election have pronounced the conservative Christian movement dead, Parsley's preaching in the service reveals exactly why the Word of Faith movement will play a big role in keeping it alive through the 2008 elections and beyond. While Parsley's audience is under his spell, the mayhem is suddenly suspended when Parsley yells, "Stop! I just heard the Holy Ghost." The audience falls silent, hoping for a direct line from God. Instead, Parsley delivers a political speech.
To his rapt audience, Parsley answers the question he says many people are asking him in the wake of the 2006 midterm election that was a disaster for Republicans. "What happened to the values voters?" Parsley insists that they didn't go away; they just became what he calls "integrity voters," meaning that "they stood up and said regardless of what you espouse with your rhetoric, if your lifestyle doesn't produce godliness, you're not going to have our vote."
Parsley takes his self-created opportunity to parlay his own rendering of "integrity" into his speech, melding his prosperity gospel with a message of individualistic entitlement that fuels the Word of Faith movement. Parsley's own wealth is built on the tithes and offerings he solicits through his church, television show, and Web site, but he justifies taking the donations by claiming that he serves God's kingdom by giving some of the money away. He says that "the government cannot do what the church must," insisting that the church must focus on issues of justice in addition to those of "righteousness." He claims that "if every church in Ohio had done what mine has done in the last year, there would not be one hungry person in the state. Not one hungry person." But he doesn't say what it is his church has done; did it take in the homeless or help people find jobs? That is not clear. But the Word of Faith message, the gospel of money and greed is clear, and Parsley implies - though he offers no proof - that his wealth is godly because he redistributes it. "It's time we stop being intimidated by the naysayers who say it's godly to have nothing. That's a lie, that's a lie. It's godly to believe for more than enough because there are always those who don't have enough."
He will not document his generosity, however. Parsley operates his ministry under tight familial control, with a complete lack of transparency and accountability. But mixed up in his contrived message of his own generosity, he implores his audience to be generous to him. That, the Word of Faith credo goes, will result in givers being blessed with their own financial harvest. With the thousands in the audience repeating each phrase, he tells them to "throw your hands up and say, 'Bless me, Lord! I'm a giver. I'm a tither. I'm going to bless your kingdom. And I receive financial abundance!'"
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: Tom Degan on Jan 22, 2008 12:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What do they do with all that money? Do they operate any homeless shelters? Are there any food programs for the poor? Any food pantries? Homeless shelters? How can anyone who calls himself a "Christian" be a supporter of George W. Bush, the least Christ-like president we've ever had?
Blessed are the peace makers
For they shall be called sons of God.
Blessed are the meek
For they shall inherit the earth.
You see where I'm going with this, don't you? Anyone who professes to be a serious follower of the Prince of Peace and yet supports the murderous agenda of the Bush regime and the GOP is one of the false prophets that Jesus warned us all to beware of.
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
COUNTDOWN: ONE MORE YEAR!
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» RE: What would Jesus think? (He'd weep)
Posted by: vox persona
» Less harshly judged will those be who believe nothing, over those who deceive in God's name.
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: What would Jesus think?
Posted by: ptoddchesser
» RE: What would Jesus think?
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» RE: What would Jesus think?
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» RE: What would Jesus think?
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» RE: What would Jesus think?
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» RE: What would Jesus think?
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: What would Jesus think?
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: What would Jesus think?
Posted by: ot
» RE: What would Jesus think?
Posted by: Vik
» Beware prosperity theology
Posted by: herbal
» RE: Beware prosperity theology
Posted by: symcokid
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Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Jan 22, 2008 1:34 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: don't they have to file 990 tax returns
Posted by: hms2004
» RE: don't they have to file 990 tax returns
Posted by: kk33deg
» Tax churches like any other service industry.
Posted by: sanddollar
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Posted by: AlexLawyer on Jan 22, 2008 1:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Read the Gospels. Whether you believe in Jesus's divinity, or even in God, or not, you'll notice that he had a lot to say about greed, materialism, ostentatious piety and duty to the less fortunate. Nowhere is he recorded as discussing abortion or homosexuality, both of which were prevalent in his time.
So the question is, what does evangelical Christianity have to do with Jesus? Not much, it seems.
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» RE: YOU are so right! What's Jesus Got to Do With It?
Posted by: wawa
» RE: What's Jesus Got to Do With It?
Posted by: bitsfick
» RE: What's Jesus Got to Do With It?
Posted by: bomfog
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Posted by: Smiggsy on Jan 22, 2008 3:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One day I asked them what the color of their blood was.....they couldn't even grasp this very concept of reality & predictably they got upset.
Some of these people are quite simply so stupid they will believe anything. So hilarious its tragic.
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Posted by: halweiner on Jan 22, 2008 4:10 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They pocket it. And they get further benefit from the tithes of fat cats
who own and operate:
Halliburton
Extell
Mobil
Exxon
Lukoil ( now that the Russkies are Capitalists Too)
McDonnell Douglas
and ASSorted defense contractors who only charge
$1,325 for a toilet seat and $1,972 for a hammer.
And the list goes on........
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» RE: The Repugnicant Evangelist
Posted by: phatkhat
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Posted by: walldodger1969 on Jan 22, 2008 4:17 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Ya gottat feel pity for these people
Posted by: ptoddchesser
» RE: Ya gottat feel pity for these people
Posted by: mainspark
» RE: Ya gottat feel pity for these people
Posted by: Gungneir
» RE: Ya gottat feel pity for these people
Posted by: Intellect
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Posted by: Sissy on Jan 22, 2008 4:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In my own view, Religion and Faith are two very different issues. Simply, I do have Faith, but I have much contempt for what I perceive as interference in lives by the "religious factor". I go to church regularly, I contribute to its causes, I run a food panatry and reach out to the homeless. That is what I do. I do not recruit people to come with me, nor do I impose my Faith on anyone else. It is simply my part of life. I do not judge you if your choose not to believe, that is your choice and I believe that we were given the ability to do that....make choices. By the same token while I could have never aborted a pregnancy, I would never, ever assume that I would have the right to impose my personal feeling on you or your loved ones. While I have been married nigh on 40 years, I would never ever tell you who you can or can't marry.
I have been terribly disheartened by what has occurred in the name of Jesus Christ these last 20 years. The Jerry Falwell's, Pat Robertson's, etc. do not come close in my estimation as to what "Faith" is or how we are "supposed" to live. I would never give a dime towards their pent houses, airplanes, trips abroad. But I do believe in the content of the Bible that gives mention over 2000 times for us to feed the poor, be kind to one another, help those in need.
That's what I belive and whether you like it or not, Bless you for what's in your own heart.
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» RE: No Pity Needed ~ Just Some Thought
Posted by: walldodger1969
» RE: No Pity Needed ~ Just Some Thought
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» RE: YOU are both correct No Pity Needed ~ Just Some Thought
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» RE: YOU are both correct No Pity Needed ~ Just Some Thought
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» RE: No Pity Needed ~ Just More Thought
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: No Pity Needed ~ Just Some Thought
Posted by: Intellect
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Posted by: wawa on Jan 22, 2008 5:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
God gave us a brain that we would use it.
A true Christian is one such as the Jesuit 'con' John Dear,
Who has done jail time more than a few times, and is facing even more:
All for being a nonviolent nonconformist who follows The Way Jesus taught one must be to be an authentic follower of his.
The hope of a secure and livable world lies with disciplined nonconformists who are dedicated to justice, peace and brotherhood. -Martin Luther King Jr
My Statement Before the Judge
By John Dear
It's a powerful experience to stand before a judge and be sentenced to jail for saying No to war, injustice and nuclear weapons, something I highly recommend for all followers of the nonviolent Jesus. It really helps clarify one's discipleship, one's citizenship in God's reign of peace, one's faith, hope and love. In these days of war, genocide, nuclear weapons, poverty, executions, abortion, torture, global warming, and violence of every description, it's a great grace to be in trouble with the empire for practicing nonviolence, for daring to offer a word of peace, for serving the God of peace.
On Thursday morning, January 24th, I'll stand in Federal Court in Albuquerque, New Mexico and be sentenced for our effort, nearly a year and a half ago now, to visit the office of our Senator. Judge Donald Svet asked us to write letters to him about ourselves, and allowed my co-defendants each to make a statement at their sentencing last November. Here below are excerpts from my notes of what I will say in court on Thursday, if allowed. Regardless of the outcome for me, my prayer is that more and more people will speak out against this evil, ongoing U.S. war on Iraq and in the process, we might all reclaim our fidelity to the nonviolent Jesus.
TBC
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» RE: the corruption of Christianity began
Posted by: wawa
» RE: the corruption of Christianity began
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» RE: the corruption of Christianity began
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
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Posted by: wawa on Jan 22, 2008 5:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jesus was NEVER a Christian, but he was a social justice, radical revolutionary Palestinian devout Jewish road warrior who rose up and challenged the job security of the Temple authorities by teaching the people they did NOT need to pay the priests for ritual baths or sacrificing livestock to be OK with God; for God already LOVED them just as they were:
Sinners, poor, diseased, outcasts, widows, orphans, refugees and prisoners all living under Roman Military Occupation.
What got Jesus crucified was disturbing the status quo of the Roman Occupying Forces of his time, by teaching the subversive concept that Caesar only had power because God allowed it and that God preferred the humble sinner, the poor, diseased, outcasts, widows, orphans, refugees and prisoners all living under Roman Occupation above the elite and arrogant.
The early followers and lovers of Jesus were called members of THE WAY-being THE WAY he taught one should be; Nonviolent, a Peacemaker and one who did the will of the Father .
"What does God require? He has told you o'man! Be just, be merciful, and walk humbly with your Lord." -Micah 6:8
Jesus remained NONVIOLENT and forgiving even while being mocked, whipped and nailed to a cross and he promised that it is the Peacemakers who are the children of God, not the peace-talkers.
2,000 years ago The Cross had NO symbolic religious meaning.
When Jesus said: "Pick up your cross and follow me."
He was issuing a POLITICAL statement, for the main roads in Jerusalem were lined with crucified agitators, rebels, dissidents and any others who disturbed the status quo of the Roman Occupying Forces.
public service message from WAWA:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
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» RE: JC was never a blathering self promoter!
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: When Jesus said: "Pick up your cross and follow me."
Posted by: bitsfick
» RE: When Jesus said: "Pick up your cross and follow me."
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» RE: When Jesus said: "Pick up your cross and follow me."
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» Christ is Anointed with Cannabis!
Posted by: garry minor
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Posted by: colinmeister on Jan 22, 2008 5:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am not convinced that Rod Parsley and other wealthy televangelists are really working to further the GOP agenda. It would seem more likely that they shill for the Republicans as a means to ensure that their tax-free status and freedom from any oversight continues. The GOP is unlikely to bite the hand which feeds it.
I gain my insight into this by the old adage of "Follow the money".
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» RE: Neo-con takes on a whole new meaning.
Posted by: Sissy
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Posted by: wawa on Jan 22, 2008 5:33 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven."
In other words: it is those who know their own spiritual poverty, their own limitations and sins honestly and trust God loves them in spite of themselves who already live in the Kingdom of God.
How comforted we will all be, when we see, we haven't got a clue, as to the depth and breadth of pure love and mercy of The Divine Mystery of The Universe. God's name in ancient Aramaic is Abba which means Daddy as much as Mommy and He/She: The Lord has said, "My ways are not your ways. My thoughts are not yours." -Isaiah 55:8
Christ proclaimed more: "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."
The essence of meek is to be patient with ignorance, slow to anger and never hold a grudge. In other words: how happy you will be when you also know humility; when you know yourself, the good and the bad, for both cut through every human heart.
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, they will be filled."
In other words: how happy you will be when your greatest desire is to do what "God requires, and he has already told you what that is; BE JUST, BE MERCIFUL and walk humbly with your Lord."-Micah 6:8
"Blessed are the merciful, they will be shown mercy." In other words: how happy you will all be when you choose to return only kindness to your 'enemy.'
"For with the measure you measure against another, it will be measured back to you." Christ warns his disciples as he explains the law of karma in Luke 6:27-38.
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they see God."
In other words: how happy you will be when you WAKE UP and see God is already within you, within every man, every woman and every child. The Supreme Being is everywhere, the Alpha and Omega, beginning and end. Beyond The Universe -and yet so small; within the heart of every atom.
"Blessed are The Peacemakers: THEY shall be called the children of God."
Oh how happy the WORLD will be when we all seek justice and pursue it, for there can be none without the other.
"Blessed are those who are persecuted because they do what God requires, theirs is The Kingdom of Heaven."
And one fine day the lion will lie down with The Lamb and man will make war no more and that is the Kingdom of God.
JC also said: "I came that you would have life to the FULL: abundant life."-John 10:10
He was NOT talking about financial wealth; he was talking about thinking deep and living life from the overflow of your heart,
"All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."-Arthur Schopenhauer
e
WAWA
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
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» RE: What JC really said
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: What JC really said
Posted by: oregonox
» RE: What JC really said. What a nonsense!
Posted by: pierrot
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Posted by: fred_53_99 on Jan 22, 2008 5:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jan 22, 2008 5:44 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The truth about religion can be found in these books:
"The Neuropsychological bases of god beliefs" Dr. Michael A. Persinger MD,
psychiatrist 1987 "Religious people are just like my temporal lobe patients"
"The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bi-Cameral Mind" Julian
Jaynes Professor, Harvard University 1976 "Religious people are just like
schizophrenic patients"
"The Psychiatric Interview in Clinical Practice" Roger A. MacKinnon, M.D.,
Robert Michels, M.D. W. B. Saunders Co. 1971 "Religiosity is a common
symptom [of] schizophrenic patients"
"The God delusion" by Richard Dawkins. "Religion is caused by a kind of
computer virus that infects the living computer, the human brain."
"The Science of Good and Evil" by Michael Shermer, 2004 "Morality and Ethics
are now in the jurisdiction of Science and greatly improved thereby."
Many books in the new science called "Sociobiology": Morals and ethics are
instinctive and they evolved.
"God: The Failed Hypothesis" by Victor Stenger Scientific proof that god does
not exist.
"The God Part of the Brain" by Matthew Alper 1996. "The USA is anomolusly
religious because many early founder groups were religiously insane and fleeing
prosecution in Europe. Religion is a genetic disorder."
"The Accidental Mind" by David J. Linden, 2007 Belknap Press of Harvard
University Press. Religion is caused by the extreme klugeyness of the "designed"
by evolution brain. In particular, the narrative creation system cannot be turned
off. It generates false narratives that are believed by the generating person. This is
seen in experiments done in the laboratory. This book has the best explanation of
resistance to evolution: "There has also been an assumption that if one accepts the
idea that life developed without divine intervention, it necessarily follows that all
aspects of religious thought must be rejected. Those who take this line of
argument to extremes argue that when religious thought is rejected moral and
social codes will degenerate and "the law of the jungle" will be all that is left. It is
imagined by religious fundamentalists that those who do not share their particular
religious faith are incapable of leading moral lives." These suppositions are not
true many times over. Linden later mentions that the creationists [intelligent
design advocates] are exactly 180 degrees wrong rather than just a little wrong.
Being exactly wrong, they are unable to unlearn their error. See Sociobiology or
Sciobio.
"Scientists Confront Intelligent Design and Creationism" edited by Petto &
Godfrey, 2007. The ID and creationist crowd are trying to do away with science.
They see science as a "godless religion." The ID and creationist crowd say
training in science is brainwashing. The creationists are seriously mentally ill. It
is religion that is brainwashing.
"Manufacturing Belief" by Lewis Wolpert
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/05/15/lewis_wolpert/
"The End of Faith" and "Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris
"Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon", by Daniel Dennett
Let's do scientific research on religion and find out what causes it.
"Origins of the Modern Mind" by Merlin Donald 1991 "So what did you expect
from a brain that is based on the Chimpanzee brain?
"Atheism, A Case Against God" by George Smith
Other authors: Christopher Hitchens
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» OK, But Science has No Morality
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: OK, But Science has No Morality?
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: OK, But Science has No Morality?
Posted by: sofla100
» This again? The exact same post as before? You still cannot reduce humans to a mere left brain
Posted by: Beck
» Left/Right Brain Division is Not the Issue
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Parsley is a psychopath who has discovered a gold mine.
Posted by: Johnboy
» RE: Parsley is a psychopath who has discovered a gold mine.
Posted by: Intellect
» RE: Parsley is a psychopath who has discovered a gold mine.
Posted by: Intellect
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jan 22, 2008 5:48 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and method of determining truth by doing Scientific experiments and a simple
absolute lack of faith and religion. Nature isn't just the final authority on truth,
Nature is the Only authority. There are zero human authorities. Scientists do not
vote on what is the truth. There is only one vote and Nature owns it. We find out
what Nature's vote is by doing Scientific [public and replicable] experiments.
Scientific [public and replicable] experiments are the only source of truth. [To be
public, it has to be visible to other people in the room. What goes on inside one
person's head isn't public unless it can be seen on an X-ray or with another
instrument.] Science is the ultimate Protestant Reformation in which Religion is
reformed out of existence.
If you want to know the truth about morals and ethics, go to a library and look up
sociobiology or Sciobio. Sociobiology is a new branch of Science but there are
already hundreds of books on it. The origin of the Universe is the subject of
Cosmology which is part of astronomy which is part of the science of physics.
Science has taken over all of the jurisdictions formerly reserved for religion and
philosophy. Philosophy and religion are obsolete.
ANY culture that goes unmodified for 1000 years will endanger its practitioners.
In all of those civilizations that fell, failure to adapt to new circumstances and
failure to foresee problems that had not been experienced in living memory or in
written memory helped cause the downfall. SCIENCE is what enables us to
foresee problems that have never happened to people before. Paleontology tells
us about problems that happened hundreds of millions of years ago. God will not
solve our problems because there is no such critter. We have to solve our own
problems or go extinct. We know a lot about gravity. We can certainly measure
and compute gravity. God is not measurable and therefore does not exist.
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» RE: eligion is obsolete.
Posted by: socialpsych
» RE: ligion is obsolete?
Posted by: craigandrew
» Science is not a substitute or surrogate for the search and longing for meaning, unless. . .
Posted by: Beck
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jan 22, 2008 5:54 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"A BRIEF HISTORY OF DISBELIEF."
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Posted by: HeKnew on Jan 22, 2008 6:03 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Direct Democracy will place Americans in the decision loop and give them the power to decide their own destinies.
Direct Democracy, now
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» RE: Terrorist///Mob rule?
Posted by: HeKnew
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jan 22, 2008 6:06 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
figuring out when the second coming would be required, assuming that the bible
was 100% true in the year zero. That is, when would the bible be down to 50%
true? The popular and professors' answer in 1965 was the year 500. The true
answer: A friend of mine was born and raised in Budapest, Hungary. As an adult,
he came here and stayed. After 25 years, he visited his home town of Budapest.
He was unable to communicate with his high school classmates because the
Hungarian language had changed so much. The correct answer is less than 25
years. The first gospel was not written down until 50 years after the alleged
events and then in a different language. The people who told the story were at
about the same level of civilization as "wild Indians", I mean Native Americans
before Columbus got here. We have all played or seen played the game called
"Telephone" in which a story is passed down a line of re-tellers. By the Sixth re-
telling, the story has no resemblance to the original. The gospel story had to have
been re-told at least 6 times before it was mis-translated the first time. [Note that
whoever wrote it down the first time was free to write whatever he wanted to.
The storytellers were illiterate and unable to check his written text by reading it.
Besides that, he wrote in Greek rather than Aramaic.] Conclusion: There is no
truth anywhere in the bible, and there never was. There is no way to know what
"jesus" or "mohammed" or any other such character actually said or did.
ALL of the jurisdictions that were formerly in the jurisdiction of religion have
been taken over by Science. There is no longer a need to debate the issue.
Religion is an unfortunate side effect of having evolved from a chimpanzee-like
animal in a very brief 6 or 7 million years. "God" will not save us from the
consequences of global warming or an asteroid impact or a tornado because there
is no such critter as "god.".] Ethics and morality are instinctive, not derived from
religion. Female instinct has greater force in morality than male instinct because
the female is in command of the sexual encounter. Look up "Sociobiology". The
origin of the Universe is the subject of Cosmology which is part of astronomy
which is part of the science of physics.
Religion is a SCAM. ANY religion, there are 10,000 to choose from at any one
time. People keep inventing new religions [for the benefit of the "prophet," of
course] and forgetting other religions. ALL preachers, priests, imams, rabbis,
iatolas, etc. belong in jail for "grand theft, bunko type".
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» All Preachers?
Posted by: garry minor
» RE: All preachers belong in jail for grand theft. QUIT REPEATING THE SAME POST
Posted by: maribelle
» I hope you are a teacher
Posted by: davidg
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Posted by: sofla100 on Jan 22, 2008 6:14 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Stopping misdeeds
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Stopping misdeeds
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Stopping misdeeds
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Freud: Mankind Needs to Be Wiped off Earth for the New Species
Posted by: sliver
» RE: Freud: Mankind Needs to Be Wiped off Earth for the New Species
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Freud: Mankind Needs to Be Wiped off Earth for the New Species
Posted by: sliver
» RE: Freud: Mankind Needs to Be Wiped off Earth for the New Species
Posted by: Intellect
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lc on Jan 22, 2008 6:20 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Big Three Religions are the cause of most of the bloodshed going on everywhere today. All three follow the same "Covenant" with a "lord from above" who convinced Abraham to cut off the end of his cock and try to kill his infant son, Isaac.
What's in your pants? If Mr. Winkie is bald then you are part and parcel of the same Covenant no matter how much you curse and swear about religion. Men fight and think like cocks blindly fighting each other to the death. For What? My God is better than your god? The fun thing about the first 5 books of the Old Testament is that they were "made by computer." Hard to accept but after several years studying the Bible Code I have found the truth to be devastating. Google for 'bible code' and follow the matrix. Use your big head instead of your little head "they" have used to control US forever. Google 'bible code' if you dare to explore what is really going on. Where there is smoke there is bound to be fire and brimstone. Now is the beginning time for the return of the Red Dragon.
IM
Belteshazzar
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» RE: In God We Trust
Posted by: BlueTigress
» Frogs
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: Diego on Jan 22, 2008 6:32 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't know penned that little gem but it sure seems to fit.
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» RE: "We Shall Not Be Free
Posted by: bitsfick
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Jan 22, 2008 6:34 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: What can I say?
Posted by: bifheart
» RE: What can I say?
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: Hoot on Jan 22, 2008 7:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
She was a true believer and was taken advantage of in many ways. Over time, even she began to question how money was being used in the 'ministry' to pay for lavish vacations, cars, and Jan's extensive (and expensive) wig collection and clothing.
She witnessed 'donations' of furniture and other valuable items that never reached the intended
'needy' people, but instead went home with one of the 'staff'.
How very sad that so many true believers get caught in this web of self interest and manipulation in the name of God.
God, save me from your followers! C.
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» Save me from my mother...
Posted by: Cathyc
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Posted by: lepidopteryx on Jan 22, 2008 8:00 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He wears designer suits and shoes, a Rolex, and drives a Benz, then gets on the air and tells people that he needs them to send money because the ministry can't make the note on the new radio station it just bought.
And his son talks about how it doesn't matter if you have unexpected expenses like your car breaking down. You need to send the church at least 10% of your gross income and trust God to provide the means to get your car fixed.
I even heard them say once that people should not give money to non-Christian relief organizations. Their logic was that if you gave a hungry person food, but didn't convince him to give his soul to Jesus, then all you were doing was sending him to hell with a full stomach.
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» RE: I live just a few blocks from
Posted by: willymack
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Posted by: Babygoat on Jan 22, 2008 8:30 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
- The mercenarie para military of Blackwater, etc
-The rampage of these false profits ( or it could be $$profits$$- not spiritual)
-The lack of accountability of/by the Bush Adminestration, their disrespect for the Constitution, their psychotic fascination with
a rapture of their own making.....
-The ongoing killing/murder of the innocents
AMOR VS. ROMA (in a nutshell)
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Posted by: craigandrew on Jan 22, 2008 8:36 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think it was to protect their own, but they wrapped it in a touchy-feely cloak of political correctness. How many wars would they have to resolve for how many civilizations (and how damaging would that be to them) if they simply waltzed into every community without forethought.
We don't need to fight religion, just the people who abuse it. And, those people are trying to distract us with religion to get us fighting the religion instead of them. Don't be distracted,..."stay on target...stay on target."
Oh wait, that was Star Wars; my mistake.
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» Prime Directive
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: I'm Confused...
Posted by: particle
» RE: Check your history
Posted by: particle
» RE: Check your history
Posted by: particle
» RE: I'm Confused...
Posted by: craigandrew
» RE: I'm Confused...
Posted by: particle
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Solar Wind on Jan 22, 2008 8:55 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I also cannot believe the utter stupidity of people who believe these insane, grandiose liars.
Surely if there were a God he would have smote them all long ago.
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» RE: Isn't there a law
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Isn't there a law
Posted by: Solar Wind
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Posted by: bitsfick on Jan 22, 2008 9:06 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Hmmmmm, Just thought of something
Posted by: Sissy
» RE: Hmmmmm, Just thought of something
Posted by: factbased
» RE: Hmmmmm, Just thought of something
Posted by: Sissy
» RE: I think the key word here is tolerance
Posted by: bitsfick
» RE: I think the key word here is tolerance
Posted by: Sissy
» RE: I think the key word here is tolerance
Posted by: Afban
» RE: Christians
Posted by: bitsfick
» RE: Christians
Posted by: Sissy
» RE: Hmmmmm, Just thought of something
Posted by: Intellect
Comments are closed-
Posted by: willymack on Jan 22, 2008 9:08 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Orgy Porgy
Posted by: factbased
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Posted by: reval on Jan 22, 2008 9:09 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Manufacturing instruments of great pain and torture and then deriving great pleasure at using these instruments to draw & quarter people with them.
Burning people at the stake - ALIVE
Drowning people.
Exhuming people in order to execute them again.
Derviving great pleasure from the forceable removal of fingernails from "blasphemers."
Declaring women witches & burning them.
Demanding recantation of observable fact at the threat of burning at the stake.
Complyng, and in some cases conspiring, with anti-human & anti-democratic governments in the commission of GENOCIDE.
Robbing the riches of a whole group of people & refusing to return (or atone) it.
Villifing hundreds of learned people simply because their observations contradicted the groups established doctrine.
Now ask yourself this: how can any sane person continue to support a group with that historical record and, in fact, regularly give them the money and means with which to continue perfoming their assult on sanity?
I think we may need to give a little more attention to our understanding of what constitutes sanity.
~Rev. El
Pastor, WVCSR
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» RE: Question
Posted by: Intellect
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Posted by: PaulK on Jan 22, 2008 9:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The bigger problem is preachers who lie about the Bible for the benefit of their political friends. Every single word of the Bible is the Gospel truth EXCEPT for the emphasized parts:
--They gloss over the parable about Lazarus and the rich man. Are there vets living in a park in your city in January? Are there kids who made your clothes in China? Continuing the trend, they gloss over Abraham welcoming strangers, Lot treating strangers better than his own family, "whatsoever you do unto the least of these, you do unto me". Why would parishioners ever vote that way? If our country didn't cause the demise of millions of innocent strangers, how would the Republicans ever get anything done? How would we ever win the conflict in Indochina and the Iraq Occupation?
--They gloss over the "Prince of Peace" part. All the atrocities in the Gospels, killing a village of babies, cutting off a prophet's head on a whim, are just stories that the flock should ignore. The church manages to put an infamous torture instrument right up there on the altar and then the preacher implies that torture might be all right if the President says so. I recently saw a guy with a T-shirt of Jesus wearing a crown of thorns who thought torture was ok. The idea that all who live by the sword will surely die by the sword is tossed into the trash right beside "Love your enemies".
--Civil disobedience is what those sandal-wearing long-haired hippies do. Pushing over the tables of the moneychangers in the temple is an outrageously stupid thing for parishioners to do. That's because Christians don't have temples. They have churches. There's a difference.
--Simplicity, having only one pair of shoes, is a faux pas at church services.
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Posted by: bitsfick on Jan 22, 2008 9:25 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: maxpayne on Jan 22, 2008 9:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ot on Jan 22, 2008 9:54 AM
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Posted by: keefus55 on Jan 22, 2008 10:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fortunately, the hypocrisy of such “Christian” behavior (purported to be founded on principles of love, inclusiveness and acceptance, but which are now being increasingly displayed as narrow intolerance for the beliefs and private sexual behavior of others) is now blatantly on display for the entire world to see. And, particularly in the Presidential campaign of Mr. Huckabee of Arkansas, it has become increasingly laced with ever-bigger lies, blatant bigotry and outright hypocrisy.
That's because it's becoming ever harder for even far right Christians to blindly accept lectures on what is “abnormal” sexual behavior from such institutions as the Roman Catholic Church that still firmly considers celibacy for its priests to be “normal”. This is the same institution that is STILL spending millions in legal fees defending…and trying to cover up and protect…its large cadre of pedophile Priests.
I think it’s also critically important for all of us to remember that, when they set up our country and wrote our Constitution, the Founding Fathers were very careful to include a clear separation between Church and State. Maybe that's because a large number of them (like Thomas Jefferson) were Deists who also knew full well how freedoms quickly evaporate once organized religion (of any genre) mixes with government. And, they were bound and determined NOT to let their new country become a Theocracy.
Anyone who truly believes in the full separation of Church and State should now recognize the current attempts by the right-wing fundamentalist Christians to hijack and control our government as nothing more than their desperate, last-ditch attempt to salvage what’s left of their once complete power to control people’s money, thoughts and lives.
Unfortunately, Mr. Bush (along with the far-right-wing fundamentalist theocrats now in the US Congress and those running for President) are now desperately trying to preserve, protect and then codify those precepts into US law. They now seem bound and determined to ram their far right, “good vs. evil”, Christian fundamentalist religious views down all our throats “by law” whether we (or what's written in our Constitution) happens to agree with them or not.
The noted author Sinclair Lewis probably summed this danger up best when he said that, "If fascism ever comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross".
The bottom line here is that our precious freedoms can be FAR more easily taken from us by religious theocrat zealots pushing “moral values” legislation than by the work of any rag-tag bunch of terrorists.
Hopefully, enough of us will see through this gigantic fundamentalist "power grab" and act accordingly come our turn in the election booth.
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Posted by: otto on Jan 22, 2008 10:07 AM
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Jan 22, 2008 10:16 AM
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ROD PARSLEY IS A CHARLATAN!!!!!!!
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Posted by: BetteM on Jan 22, 2008 11:01 AM
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» Pat Robertson's "goodies" are choking up the traffic on I-64 !
Posted by: maxpayne
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Posted by: LeeAnnG on Jan 22, 2008 11:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Conservative" has real, concrete meanings, and "loopy," "excessive," "diverging from the original message," "denying reality," "twisted," "manipulative," and "absolutely batshit nuts" are not among them.
Conservative actually does have to do with maintaining the status quo, not taking risks, being lowkey, and following the rules established over the years. Current rightwing political and religious adherents don't fit any of this. The neo-cons, warmongers, cut-taxes-and-run-up-the-deficit Bush and Reagan economic cheerleaders, and the far-out religious whackjobs who twist Jesus' words and promote excessive wealth for True Believers are not conservative. They don't deserve that label, which once identified a dignified and even defensible stance. (I am a less than dignified raging liberal, but even I can recognize that other sensible points of view have merit!)
The late, great Kurt Vonnegut wrote that what Jesus had to say was so wonderful, it really doesn't matter if he was god or not. All the wonderfulness of what he said and how he lived has been sucked out of his message by these dreadful, reprehensible liars and leeches who prey upon the poor, ignorant, and lost members of our society.
There are many, many names one might call these vampires, but "conservative" is not one of them.
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» RE: Great article
Posted by: sliver
» RE: Great article
Posted by: Intellect
» Of course!
Posted by: LeeAnnG
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Posted by: tommy1957 on Jan 22, 2008 12:45 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Jeff Hoffman on Jan 22, 2008 1:27 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: All U.S. Churches Are Thieves - AMEN.
Posted by: symcokid
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Posted by: factbased on Jan 22, 2008 2:35 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: warriornation on Jan 22, 2008 4:09 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: What happened to the message?
Posted by: Intellect
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Posted by: paulaH on Jan 22, 2008 4:11 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I also love the way they denounce the evil science, yet they're flying around in jets, broadcasting on television, and using computers, all thanks to science.
Hypocrits.
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» RE: He's telling them to do spellwork
Posted by: factbased
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Posted by: Triffel on Jan 22, 2008 5:07 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
pton and the Reverend Jessie Jackson.
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Posted by: wisegalah on Jan 22, 2008 6:30 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nothing is new.
And as for strangling the politicians with entrails of the last priests, that would be fitting.
The politicians are in deep collusion because they are in the same occupations. Lying, controlling and manipulating other people's lives.
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Posted by: Blink on Jan 22, 2008 8:09 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: This is nothing new
Posted by: Intellect
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Posted by: Suz on Jan 22, 2008 8:33 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And again I say unto you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, Than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God."
To be sure, I can't even begin to pretend to be an authority on the bible--knowing only enough of it from my ever-more-distant, church-forced youth to occasionally recall a few gruesome stories and an odd quote--but this particular passage always pops into my mind when I see or hear about these sorts of avaricious soul-scavengers. So I mull over its rather vivid imagery (A camel through a needle; how deliciously absurd!) and of course, not personally adhering to any particular desert religion, I, in my admittedly happy, self-imposed ignorant state, have just a few questions:
What do you suppose Jesus charged for a good healing? What about for raising the dead? Fine wine-making? Life-coaching?
Why would a true follower and/or leader of Jesus charge poor people for doing what Jesus would do, presumable for free?
How would a true follower and/or leader of Jesus even begin to rationalize such financial cannibalism of his own people to what his supposed savior said above?
If your prayer cloth doesn't work--say, YOUR brain doesn't get any larger AT ALL--do you get your money back? Or does it mean you are just not a worthy enough recipient for the power contained within that sacred square of cotton?
Is is even possible to feel THAT badly, THAT hopeless about yourself and your life? If so, how could you be anything other than prey?
Hmm. Well, see--I DID confess to being ignorant. I think it shows.
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Posted by: coñoloco on Jan 23, 2008 1:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
suicide bombers sacrifice everything
for their religion.
What Sistani,the Iraq ayatollac does facing
the invasion?He sits in his ass.
Had that man gave orders to resist
there was an unsostenible fight for US
forces,he is the one everyone obeys.
Clarics,of any shape sucks.
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» RE: The every Osama
Posted by: TheNamelessCity
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Posted by: mstenger on Jan 25, 2008 1:10 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Intellect on Jan 27, 2008 7:51 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the word "church" were not connected to this scam and so many others like it that perpetrate the same kind of fraud it would be investigated and charges for criminal fraud would be brought.
The problem is that no politician will come out against this nor will district attorneys investigate the obvious fraud being perpetrated upon people who do not have the intelligence to open their eyes.
I wonder how much money this group gets from Bush's faith based raid on our treasury!
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Posted by: mysanal on Jan 28, 2008 2:50 PM
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Posted by: Urstrly on Feb 1, 2008 4:11 AM
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Until telecommunications, the Elmer Gantrys of this world were limited by how many people they could bring under a tent or reach through radio. But now these charlatans can reach out to an entire nation and the world through satellite TV and the internet. Now that the FCC has allowed monopolies to buy up local rural radio stations, you can't even find msm in some areas. Clear Channel specializes in back-to-back preaching that it can broadcast to all its stations.
Imagine you are poor and isolated and someone offers riches and good health to you for your agreement to join their "church." It's a lot easier than heading down to the local welfare office where you're likely to be humiliated.
Why do people prefer faith healing to a decent health care system? Do they feel they don't deserve consistent health care? Are they refusing to take charge of their health habits? Or do they just need to feel that God has chosen them for special treatment in a world in which they pass almost invisible? And what better group to feel superior to than gays and lesbians if it's been drilled into you that they CHOOSE to defy nature? Or that women CHOOSE to abort their pregnancies, regardless of the circumstances of how they got pregnant.
If we addressed some of our basic social problems, these guys would have fewer sheep to prey on. It's not an accident that Pursley's church is located in Ohio, which has taken it on the chin economically from the globalization of the automobile and appliance industries and from the move of corporations to the Sunbelt. Somehow, Dennis Kucinich never found the key to their hearts.
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Posted by: Tom Degan on Jan 22, 2008 12:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What do they do with all that money? Do they operate any homeless shelters? Are there any food programs for the poor? Any food pantries? Homeless shelters? How can anyone who calls himself a "Christian" be a supporter of George W. Bush, the least Christ-like president we've ever had?
Blessed are the peace makers
For they shall be called sons of God.
Blessed are the meek
For they shall inherit the earth.
You see where I'm going with this, don't you? Anyone who professes to be a serious follower of the Prince of Peace and yet supports the murderous agenda of the Bush regime and the GOP is one of the false prophets that Jesus warned us all to beware of.
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
COUNTDOWN: ONE MORE YEAR!
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» RE: What would Jesus think? (He'd weep)
Posted by: vox persona
» Less harshly judged will those be who believe nothing, over those who deceive in God's name.
Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: What would Jesus think?
Posted by: ptoddchesser
» RE: What would Jesus think?
Posted by: lepidopteryx
» RE: What would Jesus think?
Posted by: TagsNOLA
» RE: What would Jesus think?
Posted by: the man with a dog
» RE: What would Jesus think?
Posted by: sanddollar
» RE: What would Jesus think?
Posted by: symcokid
» RE: What would Jesus think?
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: What would Jesus think?
Posted by: ot
» RE: What would Jesus think?
Posted by: Vik
» Beware prosperity theology
Posted by: herbal
» RE: Beware prosperity theology
Posted by: symcokid
Comments are closed-
Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Jan 22, 2008 1:34 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: don't they have to file 990 tax returns
Posted by: hms2004
» RE: don't they have to file 990 tax returns
Posted by: kk33deg
» Tax churches like any other service industry.
Posted by: sanddollar
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AlexLawyer on Jan 22, 2008 1:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Read the Gospels. Whether you believe in Jesus's divinity, or even in God, or not, you'll notice that he had a lot to say about greed, materialism, ostentatious piety and duty to the less fortunate. Nowhere is he recorded as discussing abortion or homosexuality, both of which were prevalent in his time.
So the question is, what does evangelical Christianity have to do with Jesus? Not much, it seems.
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» RE: YOU are so right! What's Jesus Got to Do With It?
Posted by: wawa
» RE: What's Jesus Got to Do With It?
Posted by: bitsfick
» RE: What's Jesus Got to Do With It?
Posted by: bomfog
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Smiggsy on Jan 22, 2008 3:38 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One day I asked them what the color of their blood was.....they couldn't even grasp this very concept of reality & predictably they got upset.
Some of these people are quite simply so stupid they will believe anything. So hilarious its tragic.
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Posted by: halweiner on Jan 22, 2008 4:10 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They pocket it. And they get further benefit from the tithes of fat cats
who own and operate:
Halliburton
Extell
Mobil
Exxon
Lukoil ( now that the Russkies are Capitalists Too)
McDonnell Douglas
and ASSorted defense contractors who only charge
$1,325 for a toilet seat and $1,972 for a hammer.
And the list goes on........
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» RE: The Repugnicant Evangelist
Posted by: phatkhat
Comments are closed-
Posted by: walldodger1969 on Jan 22, 2008 4:17 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Ya gottat feel pity for these people
Posted by: ptoddchesser
» RE: Ya gottat feel pity for these people
Posted by: mainspark
» RE: Ya gottat feel pity for these people
Posted by: Gungneir
» RE: Ya gottat feel pity for these people
Posted by: Intellect
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Sissy on Jan 22, 2008 4:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In my own view, Religion and Faith are two very different issues. Simply, I do have Faith, but I have much contempt for what I perceive as interference in lives by the "religious factor". I go to church regularly, I contribute to its causes, I run a food panatry and reach out to the homeless. That is what I do. I do not recruit people to come with me, nor do I impose my Faith on anyone else. It is simply my part of life. I do not judge you if your choose not to believe, that is your choice and I believe that we were given the ability to do that....make choices. By the same token while I could have never aborted a pregnancy, I would never, ever assume that I would have the right to impose my personal feeling on you or your loved ones. While I have been married nigh on 40 years, I would never ever tell you who you can or can't marry.
I have been terribly disheartened by what has occurred in the name of Jesus Christ these last 20 years. The Jerry Falwell's, Pat Robertson's, etc. do not come close in my estimation as to what "Faith" is or how we are "supposed" to live. I would never give a dime towards their pent houses, airplanes, trips abroad. But I do believe in the content of the Bible that gives mention over 2000 times for us to feed the poor, be kind to one another, help those in need.
That's what I belive and whether you like it or not, Bless you for what's in your own heart.
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» RE: No Pity Needed ~ Just Some Thought
Posted by: walldodger1969
» RE: No Pity Needed ~ Just Some Thought
Posted by: Sissy
» RE: YOU are both correct No Pity Needed ~ Just Some Thought
Posted by: wawa
» RE: YOU are both correct No Pity Needed ~ Just Some Thought
Posted by: Sissy
» RE: No Pity Needed ~ Just More Thought
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: No Pity Needed ~ Just Some Thought
Posted by: Intellect
Comments are closed-
Posted by: wawa on Jan 22, 2008 5:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
God gave us a brain that we would use it.
A true Christian is one such as the Jesuit 'con' John Dear,
Who has done jail time more than a few times, and is facing even more:
All for being a nonviolent nonconformist who follows The Way Jesus taught one must be to be an authentic follower of his.
The hope of a secure and livable world lies with disciplined nonconformists who are dedicated to justice, peace and brotherhood. -Martin Luther King Jr
My Statement Before the Judge
By John Dear
It's a powerful experience to stand before a judge and be sentenced to jail for saying No to war, injustice and nuclear weapons, something I highly recommend for all followers of the nonviolent Jesus. It really helps clarify one's discipleship, one's citizenship in God's reign of peace, one's faith, hope and love. In these days of war, genocide, nuclear weapons, poverty, executions, abortion, torture, global warming, and violence of every description, it's a great grace to be in trouble with the empire for practicing nonviolence, for daring to offer a word of peace, for serving the God of peace.
On Thursday morning, January 24th, I'll stand in Federal Court in Albuquerque, New Mexico and be sentenced for our effort, nearly a year and a half ago now, to visit the office of our Senator. Judge Donald Svet asked us to write letters to him about ourselves, and allowed my co-defendants each to make a statement at their sentencing last November. Here below are excerpts from my notes of what I will say in court on Thursday, if allowed. Regardless of the outcome for me, my prayer is that more and more people will speak out against this evil, ongoing U.S. war on Iraq and in the process, we might all reclaim our fidelity to the nonviolent Jesus.
TBC
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» RE: the corruption of Christianity began
Posted by: wawa
» RE: the corruption of Christianity began
Posted by: wawa
» RE: the corruption of Christianity began
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
Comments are closed-
Posted by: wawa on Jan 22, 2008 5:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jesus was NEVER a Christian, but he was a social justice, radical revolutionary Palestinian devout Jewish road warrior who rose up and challenged the job security of the Temple authorities by teaching the people they did NOT need to pay the priests for ritual baths or sacrificing livestock to be OK with God; for God already LOVED them just as they were:
Sinners, poor, diseased, outcasts, widows, orphans, refugees and prisoners all living under Roman Military Occupation.
What got Jesus crucified was disturbing the status quo of the Roman Occupying Forces of his time, by teaching the subversive concept that Caesar only had power because God allowed it and that God preferred the humble sinner, the poor, diseased, outcasts, widows, orphans, refugees and prisoners all living under Roman Occupation above the elite and arrogant.
The early followers and lovers of Jesus were called members of THE WAY-being THE WAY he taught one should be; Nonviolent, a Peacemaker and one who did the will of the Father .
"What does God require? He has told you o'man! Be just, be merciful, and walk humbly with your Lord." -Micah 6:8
Jesus remained NONVIOLENT and forgiving even while being mocked, whipped and nailed to a cross and he promised that it is the Peacemakers who are the children of God, not the peace-talkers.
2,000 years ago The Cross had NO symbolic religious meaning.
When Jesus said: "Pick up your cross and follow me."
He was issuing a POLITICAL statement, for the main roads in Jerusalem were lined with crucified agitators, rebels, dissidents and any others who disturbed the status quo of the Roman Occupying Forces.
public service message from WAWA:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
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» RE: JC was never a blathering self promoter!
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: When Jesus said: "Pick up your cross and follow me."
Posted by: bitsfick
» RE: When Jesus said: "Pick up your cross and follow me."
Posted by: TagsNOLA
» RE: When Jesus said: "Pick up your cross and follow me."
Posted by: Gungneir
» Christ is Anointed with Cannabis!
Posted by: garry minor
Comments are closed-
Posted by: colinmeister on Jan 22, 2008 5:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am not convinced that Rod Parsley and other wealthy televangelists are really working to further the GOP agenda. It would seem more likely that they shill for the Republicans as a means to ensure that their tax-free status and freedom from any oversight continues. The GOP is unlikely to bite the hand which feeds it.
I gain my insight into this by the old adage of "Follow the money".
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» RE: Neo-con takes on a whole new meaning.
Posted by: Sissy
Comments are closed-
Posted by: wawa on Jan 22, 2008 5:33 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven."
In other words: it is those who know their own spiritual poverty, their own limitations and sins honestly and trust God loves them in spite of themselves who already live in the Kingdom of God.
How comforted we will all be, when we see, we haven't got a clue, as to the depth and breadth of pure love and mercy of The Divine Mystery of The Universe. God's name in ancient Aramaic is Abba which means Daddy as much as Mommy and He/She: The Lord has said, "My ways are not your ways. My thoughts are not yours." -Isaiah 55:8
Christ proclaimed more: "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."
The essence of meek is to be patient with ignorance, slow to anger and never hold a grudge. In other words: how happy you will be when you also know humility; when you know yourself, the good and the bad, for both cut through every human heart.
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, they will be filled."
In other words: how happy you will be when your greatest desire is to do what "God requires, and he has already told you what that is; BE JUST, BE MERCIFUL and walk humbly with your Lord."-Micah 6:8
"Blessed are the merciful, they will be shown mercy." In other words: how happy you will all be when you choose to return only kindness to your 'enemy.'
"For with the measure you measure against another, it will be measured back to you." Christ warns his disciples as he explains the law of karma in Luke 6:27-38.
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they see God."
In other words: how happy you will be when you WAKE UP and see God is already within you, within every man, every woman and every child. The Supreme Being is everywhere, the Alpha and Omega, beginning and end. Beyond The Universe -and yet so small; within the heart of every atom.
"Blessed are The Peacemakers: THEY shall be called the children of God."
Oh how happy the WORLD will be when we all seek justice and pursue it, for there can be none without the other.
"Blessed are those who are persecuted because they do what God requires, theirs is The Kingdom of Heaven."
And one fine day the lion will lie down with The Lamb and man will make war no more and that is the Kingdom of God.
JC also said: "I came that you would have life to the FULL: abundant life."-John 10:10
He was NOT talking about financial wealth; he was talking about thinking deep and living life from the overflow of your heart,
"All truth passes through three stages: First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."-Arthur Schopenhauer
e
WAWA
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
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» RE: What JC really said
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: What JC really said
Posted by: oregonox
» RE: What JC really said. What a nonsense!
Posted by: pierrot
Comments are closed-
Posted by: fred_53_99 on Jan 22, 2008 5:34 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jan 22, 2008 5:44 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The truth about religion can be found in these books:
"The Neuropsychological bases of god beliefs" Dr. Michael A. Persinger MD,
psychiatrist 1987 "Religious people are just like my temporal lobe patients"
"The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bi-Cameral Mind" Julian
Jaynes Professor, Harvard University 1976 "Religious people are just like
schizophrenic patients"
"The Psychiatric Interview in Clinical Practice" Roger A. MacKinnon, M.D.,
Robert Michels, M.D. W. B. Saunders Co. 1971 "Religiosity is a common
symptom [of] schizophrenic patients"
"The God delusion" by Richard Dawkins. "Religion is caused by a kind of
computer virus that infects the living computer, the human brain."
"The Science of Good and Evil" by Michael Shermer, 2004 "Morality and Ethics
are now in the jurisdiction of Science and greatly improved thereby."
Many books in the new science called "Sociobiology": Morals and ethics are
instinctive and they evolved.
"God: The Failed Hypothesis" by Victor Stenger Scientific proof that god does
not exist.
"The God Part of the Brain" by Matthew Alper 1996. "The USA is anomolusly
religious because many early founder groups were religiously insane and fleeing
prosecution in Europe. Religion is a genetic disorder."
"The Accidental Mind" by David J. Linden, 2007 Belknap Press of Harvard
University Press. Religion is caused by the extreme klugeyness of the "designed"
by evolution brain. In particular, the narrative creation system cannot be turned
off. It generates false narratives that are believed by the generating person. This is
seen in experiments done in the laboratory. This book has the best explanation of
resistance to evolution: "There has also been an assumption that if one accepts the
idea that life developed without divine intervention, it necessarily follows that all
aspects of religious thought must be rejected. Those who take this line of
argument to extremes argue that when religious thought is rejected moral and
social codes will degenerate and "the law of the jungle" will be all that is left. It is
imagined by religious fundamentalists that those who do not share their particular
religious faith are incapable of leading moral lives." These suppositions are not
true many times over. Linden later mentions that the creationists [intelligent
design advocates] are exactly 180 degrees wrong rather than just a little wrong.
Being exactly wrong, they are unable to unlearn their error. See Sociobiology or
Sciobio.
"Scientists Confront Intelligent Design and Creationism" edited by Petto &
Godfrey, 2007. The ID and creationist crowd are trying to do away with science.
They see science as a "godless religion." The ID and creationist crowd say
training in science is brainwashing. The creationists are seriously mentally ill. It
is religion that is brainwashing.
"Manufacturing Belief" by Lewis Wolpert
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/05/15/lewis_wolpert/
"The End of Faith" and "Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris
"Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon", by Daniel Dennett
Let's do scientific research on religion and find out what causes it.
"Origins of the Modern Mind" by Merlin Donald 1991 "So what did you expect
from a brain that is based on the Chimpanzee brain?
"Atheism, A Case Against God" by George Smith
Other authors: Christopher Hitchens
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» OK, But Science has No Morality
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: OK, But Science has No Morality?
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: OK, But Science has No Morality?
Posted by: sofla100
» This again? The exact same post as before? You still cannot reduce humans to a mere left brain
Posted by: Beck
» Left/Right Brain Division is Not the Issue
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Parsley is a psychopath who has discovered a gold mine.
Posted by: Johnboy
» RE: Parsley is a psychopath who has discovered a gold mine.
Posted by: Intellect
» RE: Parsley is a psychopath who has discovered a gold mine.
Posted by: Intellect
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jan 22, 2008 5:48 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and method of determining truth by doing Scientific experiments and a simple
absolute lack of faith and religion. Nature isn't just the final authority on truth,
Nature is the Only authority. There are zero human authorities. Scientists do not
vote on what is the truth. There is only one vote and Nature owns it. We find out
what Nature's vote is by doing Scientific [public and replicable] experiments.
Scientific [public and replicable] experiments are the only source of truth. [To be
public, it has to be visible to other people in the room. What goes on inside one
person's head isn't public unless it can be seen on an X-ray or with another
instrument.] Science is the ultimate Protestant Reformation in which Religion is
reformed out of existence.
If you want to know the truth about morals and ethics, go to a library and look up
sociobiology or Sciobio. Sociobiology is a new branch of Science but there are
already hundreds of books on it. The origin of the Universe is the subject of
Cosmology which is part of astronomy which is part of the science of physics.
Science has taken over all of the jurisdictions formerly reserved for religion and
philosophy. Philosophy and religion are obsolete.
ANY culture that goes unmodified for 1000 years will endanger its practitioners.
In all of those civilizations that fell, failure to adapt to new circumstances and
failure to foresee problems that had not been experienced in living memory or in
written memory helped cause the downfall. SCIENCE is what enables us to
foresee problems that have never happened to people before. Paleontology tells
us about problems that happened hundreds of millions of years ago. God will not
solve our problems because there is no such critter. We have to solve our own
problems or go extinct. We know a lot about gravity. We can certainly measure
and compute gravity. God is not measurable and therefore does not exist.
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» RE: eligion is obsolete.
Posted by: socialpsych
» RE: ligion is obsolete?
Posted by: craigandrew
» Science is not a substitute or surrogate for the search and longing for meaning, unless. . .
Posted by: Beck
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jan 22, 2008 5:54 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"A BRIEF HISTORY OF DISBELIEF."
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: HeKnew on Jan 22, 2008 6:03 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Direct Democracy will place Americans in the decision loop and give them the power to decide their own destinies.
Direct Democracy, now
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» RE: Terrorist///Mob rule?
Posted by: HeKnew
Comments are closed-
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jan 22, 2008 6:06 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
figuring out when the second coming would be required, assuming that the bible
was 100% true in the year zero. That is, when would the bible be down to 50%
true? The popular and professors' answer in 1965 was the year 500. The true
answer: A friend of mine was born and raised in Budapest, Hungary. As an adult,
he came here and stayed. After 25 years, he visited his home town of Budapest.
He was unable to communicate with his high school classmates because the
Hungarian language had changed so much. The correct answer is less than 25
years. The first gospel was not written down until 50 years after the alleged
events and then in a different language. The people who told the story were at
about the same level of civilization as "wild Indians", I mean Native Americans
before Columbus got here. We have all played or seen played the game called
"Telephone" in which a story is passed down a line of re-tellers. By the Sixth re-
telling, the story has no resemblance to the original. The gospel story had to have
been re-told at least 6 times before it was mis-translated the first time. [Note that
whoever wrote it down the first time was free to write whatever he wanted to.
The storytellers were illiterate and unable to check his written text by reading it.
Besides that, he wrote in Greek rather than Aramaic.] Conclusion: There is no
truth anywhere in the bible, and there never was. There is no way to know what
"jesus" or "mohammed" or any other such character actually said or did.
ALL of the jurisdictions that were formerly in the jurisdiction of religion have
been taken over by Science. There is no longer a need to debate the issue.
Religion is an unfortunate side effect of having evolved from a chimpanzee-like
animal in a very brief 6 or 7 million years. "God" will not save us from the
consequences of global warming or an asteroid impact or a tornado because there
is no such critter as "god.".] Ethics and morality are instinctive, not derived from
religion. Female instinct has greater force in morality than male instinct because
the female is in command of the sexual encounter. Look up "Sociobiology". The
origin of the Universe is the subject of Cosmology which is part of astronomy
which is part of the science of physics.
Religion is a SCAM. ANY religion, there are 10,000 to choose from at any one
time. People keep inventing new religions [for the benefit of the "prophet," of
course] and forgetting other religions. ALL preachers, priests, imams, rabbis,
iatolas, etc. belong in jail for "grand theft, bunko type".
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» All Preachers?
Posted by: garry minor
» RE: All preachers belong in jail for grand theft. QUIT REPEATING THE SAME POST
Posted by: maribelle
» I hope you are a teacher
Posted by: davidg
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sofla100 on Jan 22, 2008 6:14 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Stopping misdeeds
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Stopping misdeeds
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Stopping misdeeds
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Freud: Mankind Needs to Be Wiped off Earth for the New Species
Posted by: sliver
» RE: Freud: Mankind Needs to Be Wiped off Earth for the New Species
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Freud: Mankind Needs to Be Wiped off Earth for the New Species
Posted by: sliver
» RE: Freud: Mankind Needs to Be Wiped off Earth for the New Species
Posted by: Intellect
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lc on Jan 22, 2008 6:20 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Big Three Religions are the cause of most of the bloodshed going on everywhere today. All three follow the same "Covenant" with a "lord from above" who convinced Abraham to cut off the end of his cock and try to kill his infant son, Isaac.
What's in your pants? If Mr. Winkie is bald then you are part and parcel of the same Covenant no matter how much you curse and swear about religion. Men fight and think like cocks blindly fighting each other to the death. For What? My God is better than your god? The fun thing about the first 5 books of the Old Testament is that they were "made by computer." Hard to accept but after several years studying the Bible Code I have found the truth to be devastating. Google for 'bible code' and follow the matrix. Use your big head instead of your little head "they" have used to control US forever. Google 'bible code' if you dare to explore what is really going on. Where there is smoke there is bound to be fire and brimstone. Now is the beginning time for the return of the Red Dragon.
IM
Belteshazzar
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» RE: In God We Trust
Posted by: BlueTigress
» Frogs
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Diego on Jan 22, 2008 6:32 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't know penned that little gem but it sure seems to fit.
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» RE: "We Shall Not Be Free
Posted by: bitsfick
Comments are closed-
Posted by: zooeyhall on Jan 22, 2008 6:34 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: What can I say?
Posted by: bifheart
» RE: What can I say?
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Hoot on Jan 22, 2008 7:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
She was a true believer and was taken advantage of in many ways. Over time, even she began to question how money was being used in the 'ministry' to pay for lavish vacations, cars, and Jan's extensive (and expensive) wig collection and clothing.
She witnessed 'donations' of furniture and other valuable items that never reached the intended
'needy' people, but instead went home with one of the 'staff'.
How very sad that so many true believers get caught in this web of self interest and manipulation in the name of God.
God, save me from your followers! C.
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» Save me from my mother...
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: lepidopteryx on Jan 22, 2008 8:00 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
He wears designer suits and shoes, a Rolex, and drives a Benz, then gets on the air and tells people that he needs them to send money because the ministry can't make the note on the new radio station it just bought.
And his son talks about how it doesn't matter if you have unexpected expenses like your car breaking down. You need to send the church at least 10% of your gross income and trust God to provide the means to get your car fixed.
I even heard them say once that people should not give money to non-Christian relief organizations. Their logic was that if you gave a hungry person food, but didn't convince him to give his soul to Jesus, then all you were doing was sending him to hell with a full stomach.
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» RE: I live just a few blocks from
Posted by: willymack
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Babygoat on Jan 22, 2008 8:30 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
- The mercenarie para military of Blackwater, etc
-The rampage of these false profits ( or it could be $$profits$$- not spiritual)
-The lack of accountability of/by the Bush Adminestration, their disrespect for the Constitution, their psychotic fascination with
a rapture of their own making.....
-The ongoing killing/murder of the innocents
AMOR VS. ROMA (in a nutshell)
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Posted by: craigandrew on Jan 22, 2008 8:36 AM
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I think it was to protect their own, but they wrapped it in a touchy-feely cloak of political correctness. How many wars would they have to resolve for how many civilizations (and how damaging would that be to them) if they simply waltzed into every community without forethought.
We don't need to fight religion, just the people who abuse it. And, those people are trying to distract us with religion to get us fighting the religion instead of them. Don't be distracted,..."stay on target...stay on target."
Oh wait, that was Star Wars; my mistake.
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» Prime Directive
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: I'm Confused...
Posted by: particle
» RE: Check your history
Posted by: particle
» RE: Check your history
Posted by: particle
» RE: I'm Confused...
Posted by: craigandrew
» RE: I'm Confused...
Posted by: particle
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Posted by: Solar Wind on Jan 22, 2008 8:55 AM
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I also cannot believe the utter stupidity of people who believe these insane, grandiose liars.
Surely if there were a God he would have smote them all long ago.
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» RE: Isn't there a law
Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Isn't there a law
Posted by: Solar Wind
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Posted by: bitsfick on Jan 22, 2008 9:06 AM
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» RE: Hmmmmm, Just thought of something
Posted by: Sissy
» RE: Hmmmmm, Just thought of something
Posted by: factbased
» RE: Hmmmmm, Just thought of something
Posted by: Sissy
» RE: I think the key word here is tolerance
Posted by: bitsfick
» RE: I think the key word here is tolerance
Posted by: Sissy
» RE: I think the key word here is tolerance
Posted by: Afban
» RE: Christians
Posted by: bitsfick
» RE: Christians
Posted by: Sissy
» RE: Hmmmmm, Just thought of something
Posted by: Intellect
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Posted by: willymack on Jan 22, 2008 9:08 AM
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» RE: Orgy Porgy
Posted by: factbased
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Posted by: reval on Jan 22, 2008 9:09 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Manufacturing instruments of great pain and torture and then deriving great pleasure at using these instruments to draw & quarter people with them.
Burning people at the stake - ALIVE
Drowning people.
Exhuming people in order to execute them again.
Derviving great pleasure from the forceable removal of fingernails from "blasphemers."
Declaring women witches & burning them.
Demanding recantation of observable fact at the threat of burning at the stake.
Complyng, and in some cases conspiring, with anti-human & anti-democratic governments in the commission of GENOCIDE.
Robbing the riches of a whole group of people & refusing to return (or atone) it.
Villifing hundreds of learned people simply because their observations contradicted the groups established doctrine.
Now ask yourself this: how can any sane person continue to support a group with that historical record and, in fact, regularly give them the money and means with which to continue perfoming their assult on sanity?
I think we may need to give a little more attention to our understanding of what constitutes sanity.
~Rev. El
Pastor, WVCSR
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» RE: Question
Posted by: Intellect
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Posted by: PaulK on Jan 22, 2008 9:09 AM
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The bigger problem is preachers who lie about the Bible for the benefit of their political friends. Every single word of the Bible is the Gospel truth EXCEPT for the emphasized parts:
--They gloss over the parable about Lazarus and the rich man. Are there vets living in a park in your city in January? Are there kids who made your clothes in China? Continuing the trend, they gloss over Abraham welcoming strangers, Lot treating strangers better than his own family, "whatsoever you do unto the least of these, you do unto me". Why would parishioners ever vote that way? If our country didn't cause the demise of millions of innocent strangers, how would the Republicans ever get anything done? How would we ever win the conflict in Indochina and the Iraq Occupation?
--They gloss over the "Prince of Peace" part. All the atrocities in the Gospels, killing a village of babies, cutting off a prophet's head on a whim, are just stories that the flock should ignore. The church manages to put an infamous torture instrument right up there on the altar and then the preacher implies that torture might be all right if the President says so. I recently saw a guy with a T-shirt of Jesus wearing a crown of thorns who thought torture was ok. The idea that all who live by the sword will surely die by the sword is tossed into the trash right beside "Love your enemies".
--Civil disobedience is what those sandal-wearing long-haired hippies do. Pushing over the tables of the moneychangers in the temple is an outrageously stupid thing for parishioners to do. That's because Christians don't have temples. They have churches. There's a difference.
--Simplicity, having only one pair of shoes, is a faux pas at church services.
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Posted by: bitsfick on Jan 22, 2008 9:25 AM
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Posted by: maxpayne on Jan 22, 2008 9:41 AM
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Posted by: ot on Jan 22, 2008 9:54 AM
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Posted by: keefus55 on Jan 22, 2008 10:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fortunately, the hypocrisy of such “Christian” behavior (purported to be founded on principles of love, inclusiveness and acceptance, but which are now being increasingly displayed as narrow intolerance for the beliefs and private sexual behavior of others) is now blatantly on display for the entire world to see. And, particularly in the Presidential campaign of Mr. Huckabee of Arkansas, it has become increasingly laced with ever-bigger lies, blatant bigotry and outright hypocrisy.
That's because it's becoming ever harder for even far right Christians to blindly accept lectures on what is “abnormal” sexual behavior from such institutions as the Roman Catholic Church that still firmly considers celibacy for its priests to be “normal”. This is the same institution that is STILL spending millions in legal fees defending…and trying to cover up and protect…its large cadre of pedophile Priests.
I think it’s also critically important for all of us to remember that, when they set up our country and wrote our Constitution, the Founding Fathers were very careful to include a clear separation between Church and State. Maybe that's because a large number of them (like Thomas Jefferson) were Deists who also knew full well how freedoms quickly evaporate once organized religion (of any genre) mixes with government. And, they were bound and determined NOT to let their new country become a Theocracy.
Anyone who truly believes in the full separation of Church and State should now recognize the current attempts by the right-wing fundamentalist Christians to hijack and control our government as nothing more than their desperate, last-ditch attempt to salvage what’s left of their once complete power to control people’s money, thoughts and lives.
Unfortunately, Mr. Bush (along with the far-right-wing fundamentalist theocrats now in the US Congress and those running for President) are now desperately trying to preserve, protect and then codify those precepts into US law. They now seem bound and determined to ram their far right, “good vs. evil”, Christian fundamentalist religious views down all our throats “by law” whether we (or what's written in our Constitution) happens to agree with them or not.
The noted author Sinclair Lewis probably summed this danger up best when he said that, "If fascism ever comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross".
The bottom line here is that our precious freedoms can be FAR more easily taken from us by religious theocrat zealots pushing “moral values” legislation than by the work of any rag-tag bunch of terrorists.
Hopefully, enough of us will see through this gigantic fundamentalist "power grab" and act accordingly come our turn in the election booth.
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Posted by: otto on Jan 22, 2008 10:07 AM
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Jan 22, 2008 10:16 AM
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ROD PARSLEY IS A CHARLATAN!!!!!!!
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Posted by: BetteM on Jan 22, 2008 11:01 AM
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» Pat Robertson's "goodies" are choking up the traffic on I-64 !
Posted by: maxpayne
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Posted by: LeeAnnG on Jan 22, 2008 11:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Conservative" has real, concrete meanings, and "loopy," "excessive," "diverging from the original message," "denying reality," "twisted," "manipulative," and "absolutely batshit nuts" are not among them.
Conservative actually does have to do with maintaining the status quo, not taking risks, being lowkey, and following the rules established over the years. Current rightwing political and religious adherents don't fit any of this. The neo-cons, warmongers, cut-taxes-and-run-up-the-deficit Bush and Reagan economic cheerleaders, and the far-out religious whackjobs who twist Jesus' words and promote excessive wealth for True Believers are not conservative. They don't deserve that label, which once identified a dignified and even defensible stance. (I am a less than dignified raging liberal, but even I can recognize that other sensible points of view have merit!)
The late, great Kurt Vonnegut wrote that what Jesus had to say was so wonderful, it really doesn't matter if he was god or not. All the wonderfulness of what he said and how he lived has been sucked out of his message by these dreadful, reprehensible liars and leeches who prey upon the poor, ignorant, and lost members of our society.
There are many, many names one might call these vampires, but "conservative" is not one of them.
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» RE: Great article
Posted by: sliver
» RE: Great article
Posted by: Intellect
» Of course!
Posted by: LeeAnnG
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Posted by: tommy1957 on Jan 22, 2008 12:45 PM
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Posted by: Jeff Hoffman on Jan 22, 2008 1:27 PM
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» RE: All U.S. Churches Are Thieves - AMEN.
Posted by: symcokid
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Posted by: factbased on Jan 22, 2008 2:35 PM
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Posted by: warriornation on Jan 22, 2008 4:09 PM
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» RE: What happened to the message?
Posted by: Intellect
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Posted by: paulaH on Jan 22, 2008 4:11 PM
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I also love the way they denounce the evil science, yet they're flying around in jets, broadcasting on television, and using computers, all thanks to science.
Hypocrits.
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» RE: He's telling them to do spellwork
Posted by: factbased
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Posted by: Triffel on Jan 22, 2008 5:07 PM
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pton and the Reverend Jessie Jackson.
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Posted by: wisegalah on Jan 22, 2008 6:30 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nothing is new.
And as for strangling the politicians with entrails of the last priests, that would be fitting.
The politicians are in deep collusion because they are in the same occupations. Lying, controlling and manipulating other people's lives.
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Posted by: Blink on Jan 22, 2008 8:09 PM
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» RE: This is nothing new
Posted by: Intellect
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Posted by: Suz on Jan 22, 2008 8:33 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And again I say unto you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, Than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God."
To be sure, I can't even begin to pretend to be an authority on the bible--knowing only enough of it from my ever-more-distant, church-forced youth to occasionally recall a few gruesome stories and an odd quote--but this particular passage always pops into my mind when I see or hear about these sorts of avaricious soul-scavengers. So I mull over its rather vivid imagery (A camel through a needle; how deliciously absurd!) and of course, not personally adhering to any particular desert religion, I, in my admittedly happy, self-imposed ignorant state, have just a few questions:
What do you suppose Jesus charged for a good healing? What about for raising the dead? Fine wine-making? Life-coaching?
Why would a true follower and/or leader of Jesus charge poor people for doing what Jesus would do, presumable for free?
How would a true follower and/or leader of Jesus even begin to rationalize such financial cannibalism of his own people to what his supposed savior said above?
If your prayer cloth doesn't work--say, YOUR brain doesn't get any larger AT ALL--do you get your money back? Or does it mean you are just not a worthy enough recipient for the power contained within that sacred square of cotton?
Is is even possible to feel THAT badly, THAT hopeless about yourself and your life? If so, how could you be anything other than prey?
Hmm. Well, see--I DID confess to being ignorant. I think it shows.
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Posted by: coñoloco on Jan 23, 2008 1:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
suicide bombers sacrifice everything
for their religion.
What Sistani,the Iraq ayatollac does facing
the invasion?He sits in his ass.
Had that man gave orders to resist
there was an unsostenible fight for US
forces,he is the one everyone obeys.
Clarics,of any shape sucks.
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» RE: The every Osama
Posted by: TheNamelessCity
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Posted by: mstenger on Jan 25, 2008 1:10 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Intellect on Jan 27, 2008 7:51 AM
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If the word "church" were not connected to this scam and so many others like it that perpetrate the same kind of fraud it would be investigated and charges for criminal fraud would be brought.
The problem is that no politician will come out against this nor will district attorneys investigate the obvious fraud being perpetrated upon people who do not have the intelligence to open their eyes.
I wonder how much money this group gets from Bush's faith based raid on our treasury!
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Posted by: mysanal on Jan 28, 2008 2:50 PM
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Posted by: Urstrly on Feb 1, 2008 4:11 AM
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Until telecommunications, the Elmer Gantrys of this world were limited by how many people they could bring under a tent or reach through radio. But now these charlatans can reach out to an entire nation and the world through satellite TV and the internet. Now that the FCC has allowed monopolies to buy up local rural radio stations, you can't even find msm in some areas. Clear Channel specializes in back-to-back preaching that it can broadcast to all its stations.
Imagine you are poor and isolated and someone offers riches and good health to you for your agreement to join their "church." It's a lot easier than heading down to the local welfare office where you're likely to be humiliated.
Why do people prefer faith healing to a decent health care system? Do they feel they don't deserve consistent health care? Are they refusing to take charge of their health habits? Or do they just need to feel that God has chosen them for special treatment in a world in which they pass almost invisible? And what better group to feel superior to than gays and lesbians if it's been drilled into you that they CHOOSE to defy nature? Or that women CHOOSE to abort their pregnancies, regardless of the circumstances of how they got pregnant.
If we addressed some of our basic social problems, these guys would have fewer sheep to prey on. It's not an accident that Pursley's church is located in Ohio, which has taken it on the chin economically from the globalization of the automobile and appliance industries and from the move of corporations to the Sunbelt. Somehow, Dennis Kucinich never found the key to their hearts.
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