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Now the Theocrats Want 'American Religious History Week'

By Chris Hedges, The Nation. Posted January 15, 2008.


With House Resolution 888, the religious right seeks to rewrite American history, turning the founding fathers into Christian fundamentalists.

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Here is an event I have no intention of honoring: American Religious History Week. OK, it's not official yet. But it is spelled out as Resolution 888 in the bowels of a House committee, sponsored by Republican Congressman Randy Forbes and backed by thirty-one other Representatives. This is an insidious attempt by the radical Christian right to rewrite American history, to turn the founding fathers from deists into Christian fundamentalists, to proclaim us officially to be a Christian nation. If you want to know why Mike Huckabee is dangerous, why his brand of right-wing Christian populism is so frightening, you should read this resolution.

Sent to me by the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, the resolution has passages like this: "Whereas political scientists have documented that the most frequently-cited source in the political period known as The Founding Era was the Bible" and "Whereas the United States Supreme Court has declared throughout the course of our Nation's history that the United States is 'a Christian country', 'a Christian nation', 'a Christian people', 'a religious people whose institutions presuppose a Supreme Being' and that 'we cannot read into the Bill of Rights a philosophy of hostility to religion....'"

The resolution is staggering for its sheer volume of falsehoods about our history, our system of government and our democracy. It asserts that Thomas Jefferson "urged local governments to make land available specifically for Christian purposes, provided Federal funding for missionary work among Indian tribes, and declared that religious schools would receive 'the patronage of the government.'" There are seventy-six preambular clauses like these, leading up to four resolution clauses, the third of which states that the House "rejects, in the strongest possible terms, any effort to remove, obscure, or purposely omit such history from our Nation's public buildings and educational resources."

"House Resolution 888 is perhaps the most disgraceful, shocking and tragic example yet of the pernicious and pervasive pattern and practice of the unconstitutional rape of our bedrock American citizens' religious freedoms by the fundamentalist Christian right," says Michael "Mikey" Weinstein, head of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation and a former White House counsel for President Reagan.

The resolution may never work its way out of committee, and even if it does, it may never be passed. But it is important because it expresses an increasingly influential ideology. It underlies the ideological appeal of the Huckabee campaign, however adroitly the Republican candidate dodges these issues when speaking to the general public. "I hope we answer the alarm clock and take this nation back for Christ," Huckabee told a Baptist convention in 1998. He assured the crowd that he had not entered politics "because I thought government had a better answer. I got into

politics because I knew government didn't have the real answers, that the real answers lie in accepting Jesus Christ into our lives." And this ideology, as illustrated by Mitt Romney's coded appeal to Christian fundamentalists when giving his recent Texas speech on faith, or even John McCain's humbling trip to Liberty University, has a powerful pull on Republican candidates.

I saw a persistent rewriting of history in numerous Christian history textbooks, used by hundreds of thousands of children, when I wrote American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America. The revisionists take a minor historical event -- in the case of the missionaries, drawing from very rare decisions to provide funds for mission schools or the building of a church on Indian lands -- and use it to create a false portrait of a Christian nation. The resolution asserts that the Fourth of July was designed as a Christian holiday, and that in 1977 Congress authorized that Bibles be "printed under their care" and imported for dissemination to the American public. Congress never imported Bibles. But facts matter little.

It is a mistake, despite the seeming implosion of the Republican Party, to count these people out. The Christian radicals have, as the Huckabee candidacy illustrates, broken free from the fetters of their corporate and neocon handlers. They have unleashed a frightening populism that, in the event of an economic meltdown or period of instability, could see the movement ride the wave of a massive right-wing backlash. So when you get tired of the cute sound bites that constitute most coverage of these campaigns, pull out this resolution to remind yourself that we are playing with dynamite, that unless we begin to re-enfranchise tens of millions of Americans -- and this means economically -- back into the mainstream, unless we again give our workers the chance to earn a living wage, we will fail to blunt this movement and could well fall victim to it.

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Chris Hedges, a Pulitzer prize-winning reporter, was the Middle East bureau chief for The New York Times. He spent seven years in the Middle East and reported frequently from Iran. His latest book is American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America.

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Irony...
Posted by: JMTulip on Jan 15, 2008 1:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I guess the irony in all this is that 888 is awfully similar to 666. Two doors up from theocracy.

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» RE: Irony... Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Irony... Posted by: jmmartin
» RE: Irony... Posted by: Intellect
» RE: Irony... Posted by: goeswithness
» RE:666 + more Irony... Posted by: wawa
» RE: 666 + more Irony... Posted by: Intellect
» RE: 666 + more Irony... Posted by: Tombo
» Who Knows! Posted by: Artkansas
» It is not irony at all! Posted by: wisegalah
He should have written the book "Islamo-Fascists: The Islamic Jihadists and the War on America."
Posted by: Sociallibertarian on Jan 15, 2008 1:16 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Chris Hedges being a Pulitzer prize-winning reporter and was the Middle East bureau chief for The New York Times. He spent seven years in the Middle East and reported frequently from Iran. His latest book is “American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America.”

I cannot but agree with him in his article but I reaaly wonder why he did not write the book for which he is so suitable able to do because of his Middle Eastern experience and especially the extremely fundamentalist and islamofascist state of Iran. Why is he writing about fundamentalist Christians in the US when islamofascist really is at war with the US.

He should have written the book "Islamo-Fascists: The Islamic Jihadists and the War on America."

American fundamentalist Christians are comparable to moderate Moslems in their view on religion, homosexuality and women’s rights. Christian fundamentalists are definitely not the fascists the Islamic Jihadists are.

I as an atheist or more correctly nontheist do not understand why American progressives with venom curse the US fundamentalist Christian Right but is absolutely silent as regards to moderate Islam in general and jihadist Islam in particular.

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» What utter tripe. Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: What utter tripe. Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: What utter tripe. Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: What utter tripe. Posted by: goeswithness
Haha
Posted by: Stayne on Jan 15, 2008 1:43 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lovin' the Bad Religion shout-out in the article picture.

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» RE: Haha Posted by: willymack
Islam and Human Rights
Posted by: AlexLawyer on Jan 15, 2008 2:05 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sociallibertarian, you have a good point. Before 9/11 we liberals were pretty critical of the Muslim record on human rights, especially gender issues. When Bush was giving millions to the Taliban, we were writing about their abhorrent treatment of women. But when the right wingers started bashing Muslims, many liberals lept to their defense. I guess it's our underdog-loving reflex.

While the Koran, like the Bible, contains a lot of contradictory material, Islam has a particularly vile track record and a few reassuring-sounding snippets from apologists don't outweigh the lived experience of the vast majority of the Muslim community. Furthermore, the exhortations to kill infidels, rape wives and pre-pubescent girls, take slaves, rob non-Muslims, slaughter apostates and treat women as third-class citizens are taken by all Muslims as coming directly from Allah and therefore direct and eternally applicable commands. Accordingly, the most we can hope for is some ambivalence on these issues.

It's not PC to mention it, and you can get a fatwa slapped on you for doing so, but it's legitimate to scrutinize Muhammad's character since he is considered the Messenger of Allah, the credibility of the Koran rests directly on him, and he is the role model for Muslims. He supported himself by armed robbery and murder, committed genocide, married and molested his six year old cousin and raped non-Muslim girls he had enslaved. These things are all recorded in respected Islamic sources including the Koran.

The fundamentalist Christians don't have to be as bad as Muslims to be bad, however, and we don't need another theocrat in the White House.

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» Fact Check Posted by: Robba29
» are you sure ? Posted by: yandex
» RE: Islam and Human Rights Posted by: shanaza
» RE: Islam and Human Rights Posted by: AlexLawyer
Skeptical
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Jan 15, 2008 3:46 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Are you suggesting that the growing fanaticism in this country is a function of economic disenfranchisement? If so, do you have statistics to back that up? They might be interesting.

Wasn't the Great Depression one of the most progressive eras in our recent history? What about all the drugs, martinis, divorces, swinging couples, and other sinfulness in the midst of the high-inflation, stock market gloom, and oil shortages of the 70s? What about adding "under God" to the Pledge, and the rabid anti-communism of the prosperous 50s?

In its current form, this crap has been going on since the late 70s, through good times and bad. Of course, it's also been going on more or less since the 1600s and before. We seem to be all-weather fanatics, and I'm skeptical of the relationship this article implies between economics and religious fanaticism in US culture.

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» RE: Skeptical Posted by: phatkhat
» RE: Skeptical Posted by: Robba29
what a lovely can of worms this bill could open
Posted by: Suzon on Jan 15, 2008 4:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We'd all be at each other's throats. Turning the US into a theocracy is a very bad idea. Have the fundamentalists (who actually ignore the real fundamentals of Christianity) not heard of unintended consequences?

The Christian group with the most clout is the Catholic Church.

A true history of religion in the United States is, however, an interesting project. The Church of England, which has condoned corrupt elites both in the UK and in its former colonies, plays a shameful role in the bloody history of the world. Christianity isn't the benign force it's cracked up to be.

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Are we good at finger pointing?
Posted by: progressivetype on Jan 15, 2008 4:23 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can see posters have begun to write about how (our form of) Christianity is good and we are so good as a culture, and USA Xian fundamentalists are not a real threat, chiding Mr. Hedges concern as intolerance or did he forget 9/11? The rose colored prism from which many Americans seem to view the rest of the (scary and heathen) world these days.

Having lived in other countries myself, many people around the planet view us as a rigid and self righteous culture, unable to acknowledge subtly and refinement in the society of others.

Why can't we see our political "center" occupies the place where most other societies' right-wing usually sits. And rather than a look at our own accountability for our problems on this issue, posters have already begun to point at other societies' fundamentalism as the problem, surely our religion is not extremist!

IF you believe 9/11 was done by 19 boxcutter wielding mostly Saudis (9 of which are still alive and well, opps), hasn't the death of over a million Iraqis, countless Afganis and almost 4,000 US military been enough revenge so that we can do some self analysis here, perhaps we could start to look at our assumptions about Christianity?

I believe can be a good person without accepting Jesus as my personal savior, but I don't think Xian fundamentalists think so. As Chris Hedges's professor said in the 80's, when fascism comes to the USA it will be wrapped in a flag carrying a cross.

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What if you could help end this ignorance forever?
Posted by: SevenStarHand on Jan 15, 2008 6:17 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The following link contains irrefutable PROOF, not just opinions, that all three so-called Faiths of Abraham are purposeful deceptions.

What would you do if given the pivotal wisdom required to drive a stake through the heart of these evil bloodsuckers' hidden power sources?

Here is Wisdom...

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» RE: WISDOM is Posted by: rhbee
» RE: duh! WISDOM is Posted by: wawa
Religion in Early America
Posted by: supercrisp on Jan 15, 2008 6:26 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
OK, I studied this period in America's history in grad school. The religious scene was far more complex than it's painted, and you don't need grad school to see that. The biggest conflicts in the 17th century were between Anglicans and Separatists, but there were also conflicts within the Separatist camp over how to treat otherness. People like Roger Williams wanted to be at peace with Native Americans, learn to understand (and eventually convert them). The majority were more sanguinary.

In the 18th century, you have groups like Moravians who were also pacifist and tolerant. They were a pretty large group, and dominated the interior in the north in New York and Pennsylvania, because they could get along with the Native Americans. They were also successful in parts of what are now the Carolinas, Tennessee, and Georgia. But they didn't do too well with other colonists during the Revolutionary War because they were pacifists.

And there were folks like the Shakers too. So many people to consider.

And the founding fathers themselves. Well, privately they tended to be deists, more or sometimes less. But publicly they talked a Christian line. Some were frankly atheists, most notably Paine. Many, like Jefferson, saw a great deal of moral value in the Koran, and that text was of a great deal of interest to early political leaders, especially as America's first war (discounting the Revolution, when it wasn't its own nation yet) was with Islamic folks, the Barbary Pirates, if I recall correctly. My area of study was the 17th century.

Anyway, if you have doubts, head over to a university library and start checking out the books. You don't have to read "revisionist" history if that makes you paranoid. You can go to the archives and read the original words of these folks. But you will have to hit the archives, as (I wonder why?) a lot of these texts don't get published much.

I'd provide chapter and verse, but that was years ago, and I switched my area of study to contemporary poetry because, well, if I was going to spend my life one it, I didn't want to be stuck 400 years in the past.

Anyway: my whole point is: Christian Conservatives don't know their *ss from a hole in the ground when it comes to history (Ernie Fletcher, KY), nor do they want to. I'm with Jon Stewart: just ask them to recite the 10 Commandments. The majority of CC politicos are hypocrites and care more about their own outrage and petty-mindedness than they do about the the word of God.

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» RE: eligion in Early America Posted by: Robba29
» RE: eligion in Early America Posted by: Intellect
» RE: eligion in Early America Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: eligion in Early America Posted by: thinkingoutloud17
Radical Christians
Posted by: wawa on Jan 15, 2008 7:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
True Christians FOLLOW what Jesus actually said and he laid it all out on the Mount of the Beatitudes.

About 2,000 years ago, when Christ was about 33, he hiked up a hill and sat down under an olive tree and began to teach the people;

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven."

In other words: it is those who know their own spiritual poverty, their own limitations and sins honestly and trust God loves them in spite of themselves who already live in the Kingdom of God.

How comforted we will all be, when we see, we haven't got a clue, as to the depth and breadth of pure love and mercy of The Divine Mystery of The Universe. God's name in ancient Aramaic is Abba which means Daddy as much as Mommy and He/She: The Lord has said, "My ways are not your ways. My thoughts are not yours." -Isaiah 55:8

Christ proclaimed more: "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."

The essence of meek is to be patient with ignorance, slow to anger and never hold a grudge. In other words: how happy you will be when you also know humility; when you know yourself, the good and the bad, for both cut through every human heart.

"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, they will be filled."

In other words: how happy you will be when your greatest desire is to do what "God requires, and he has already told you what that is; BE JUST, BE MERCIFUL and walk humbly with your Lord."-Micah 6:8

"Blessed are the merciful, they will be shown mercy." In other words: how happy you will all be when you choose to return only kindness to your 'enemy.'

"For with the measure you measure against another, it will be measured back to you." Christ warns his disciples as he explains the law of karma in Luke 6:27-38.

"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they see God."

In other words: how happy you will be when you WAKE UP and see God is already within you, within every man, every woman and every child. The Supreme Being is everywhere, the Alpha and Omega, beginning and end. Beyond The Universe -and yet so small; within the heart of every atom.

"Blessed are The Peacemakers: THEY shall be called the children of God."

Oh how happy the WORLD will be when we all seek justice and pursue it, for there can be none without the other.

"Blessed are those who are persecuted because they do what God requires, theirs is The Kingdom of Heaven."

And one fine day the lion will lie down with The Lamb and man will make war no more and that is the Kingdom of God.

"Love is not the starving of whole populations. Love is not the bombardment of open cities. Love is not killing......Our manifesto is the Sermon on the Mount, which means that we will try to be peacemakers." -Dorothy Day



By the sixth century before Christ, the conflicts in the land were already old news, and Jeremiah warned the people that all God could see was violence and destruction. Sickness and wounds were all around...For every misunderstanding, every condemning thought, every negative vibration, every tear torn from a heart, every time one grabbed and wouldn't let go, and they only did it because they did not know. The Divine is within all creation and within all women and men.

And every tiny kindness you have ever done, every gentle word spoken, every time you held your tongue, every positive thought, every smile freely given, every helping hand that opens, helps bring in the kingdom. And the kingdom comes from above and the kingdom comes from within.

IMAGINE a kingdom of sisterhood of all creatures and all men.


eileen fleming
author, film producer,
reporter and editor WAWA:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/

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» Scary Stuff! Posted by: makeadifference
» RE: adical Christians Posted by: Intellect
The Dark Ages, The Crusades, The Inquisition
Posted by: makeadifference on Jan 15, 2008 7:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Dark Ages, The Crusades, The Inquisition... does anyone need more evidence against a Theocracy and what would lay ahead?

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Facism, fundamentalism, Tom Jefferson and Tom Paine
Posted by: wawa on Jan 15, 2008 7:12 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
According to the 1987 classic, The Different Drum: Community Making and Peace, Dr. Scott Peck defines the spiritual life as fluid and that one may pass back and forth repeatedly through any of the four-probably more-stages of the soul.

Stage one upon this journey -that begins from within-is essentially our infancy in the spiritual life. Like a wild child, a person in this stage reflects the inner chaotic and anti-social, unregenerate soul that is interested only in its own self-satisfaction and ego, much like the stereotypical spoiled child. For stage one people, it really is all about them.



Stage two souls seek to "let their light shine" and will live virtuous lives and do many good works. They also can be judgmental of others, self-righteous, rigid of thought, cold of heart, legalistic concrete literal thinkers and may even be guilty of a lukewarm faith. They want to do right and they even may desire to love and please God, but have not yet fully opened up to the Inner Light, as Joan of Arc did when she challenged church and state and persisted that she had intuited God within -even while being fried.

Stage two souls have not yet been set fully free and prefer the security of a higher human authority than themselves for guidance. They submit to institutions, scripture, dogma, ritual, ministers, or gurus. This is the most appropriate stage for older children and most adults who live busy lives just trying to keep bread on the table and a dry roof above. The difference between a stage one and stage two soul, is that a one wouldn't even notice a neighbor in need, while the two has awoken to the fact that we are to be our neighbor's keepers and they will respond to a friend-and like the good Samaritan, even to a total stranger in need.

Most theologians would agree that the opposite of faith is not disbelief: the opposite of faith is fear.


Stage three souls have not just fearlessly awoken, they have evolved!

A stage three soul may well reject Christ as God, but often agree with the philosophy of Jesus, which Thomas Jefferson laid out when he weeded out the miracle stories from the gospels and clarified the teachings and ethics of Christ in:

THE LIFE AND MORALS of JESUS of NAZARETH

1. Be just: justice comes from virtue which comes from the heart.
2. Treat people the way we want to be treated.
3. Always work for PEACEFUL resolutions, even to the point of returning violence with COMPASSION.
4. Consider valuable the things that have no material value.
5. Do not judge others.
6. Do not bear grudges.
7. Be modest and unpretentious.
8. Give out of true generosity, not because we expect to be repaid.
9. Being true to one's self in more important than being loyal to one's family...those who think they know the most are the most ignorant...


A stage three soul will see that a neighbor is everyone on the planet and not just those who think and look the same. Stage three's are seekers, doubters, skeptics, atheists, agnostics and frequently adults who grew up disenchanted with institutionalized religion. Their inherent intellectual curiosity leads them to seek their own way towards the Mystery of the Divine through philosophy and the study of multiple faith paths choosing and discarding according to their "inner light."


Tom Paine was most likely a 3:

"Soon after I had published the pamphlet "Common Sense" [on Feb. 14, 1776] in America, I saw the exceeding probability that a revolution in the system of government would be followed by a revolution in the system of religion... The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion."


e
http://www.wearewideawake.org/

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» Scott Peck was a Christian Posted by: Philip Newton
JUST WHAT WE NEED, ANOTHER MONKEY WRENCH
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jan 15, 2008 7:22 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Can't we just try to smooth out the differences we have before adding more complicated matters to the mix. This is a crazy idea and only intended to further divide us and make it impossible to control our government. Politicians are not people representing god. They should be reminded of that. It's not about preferring one religion over the other. It's about keep them all out of government. Thank,s ANNA

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» RE: WHAT WE NEED is to WAKE UP! Posted by: makeadifference
Dems Don't Want To Be Branded "Soft On Atheism"
Posted by: QQOblivion on Jan 15, 2008 8:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wonder if this resolution will have the support of many Democrats. After all, the Dems don't want to be branded as "soft on atheists" or anything!
("We got to watch out for 'em terr'ist atheists!"...)
Seriously, though. It would take congresspeople to actually READ the resolution to know it is a bad thing. How much you want to bet that the Dems, let alone the Repugnants, will just let this feel-good resolution pass? After all, hardly anyone in Congress is against RELIGIOUS HISTORY, or anything. Jeesh.

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Dominionism Is Dangerous
Posted by: InsertNameHere on Jan 15, 2008 8:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How about 'Make Dominionism History Week'?

If you read Chris Hedges book, his point about these fascists is that they are a small minority who have been able to hijack a large audience of more mainstream Evangelical Christians. This is parallel to other historical accounts of the rise of fascist regimes elsewhere.

They sit and wait to seize on disaster and turmoil. Preying on people's emotions, Offering salvation (literally in this case).

People ask: 'How could a monster like Hitler rise to power in Germany?'

They seized on the economic turmoil of the time and conjured up enemies while offering salvation and security. Sound familiar? They do it incrementally. The Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei were a fringe group who were dismissed as ridiculous once.

How could this happen in America?

Do nothing and ask yourself that in 5 to 10 years.

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You need to experience Christian fundamentalism before you call it moderate
Posted by: sarahk on Jan 15, 2008 8:29 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As someone who grew up Christian fundamentalist, I can tell you that the reason you think this group is moderate is because they have (so far) been unable to gain complete control of our local and federal systems.
Here are some of the values and ideas I learned from my fundamentalist church and school.

- As Christians, we needed to prepare for the 2nd Coming when Jesus will return. This event will occur when the Jews are settled in Israel,and (Very Important) the Jewish people have re-built the temple. In my 10th grade class, we memorized all the measurements of the temple and it's furnishings. I think the goal was to prepare Christian warriors to help the Jews with this mission.
The bizarre thing was, that at the same time we were taught that we should support the Jews in Israel, there was rampant anti-Semitism in the church. For example, when we discussed who the AntiChrist might be, it was always mentioned that it would be a Jewish man from Jerusalem. Very bizarre! (Note to non-fundies: The Anti-Christ is an evil super-natural person who will trick people into thinking he is Jesus. This will happen before the 2nd Coming.)

- When Jesus comes back, all the unbelievers will be thrown into a lake of fire (this unfortunantely includes Jewish people and also Christians who have not accepted Jesus as Personal Lord and Savior.) Some of these Christians would include Eastern Orthodox, Catholics, and probably a lot of liberal Methodist.

- As it is written in Exodus, disobedient children should be taken outside the city gates and stoned to death. I remember deacons in the church talking about stoning as a God-approved punishment and mentioning this Exodus verse in particular. I think the idea was it that it would take only about one or two stonings, for the other kids to shape up.
There was talk that if we became a Godly nation, we could use godly punishments like stoning.

- Women are more inclined to sin and to make men sin so they need to be controlled. This is why women should be submissive. I will always remember the poor woman who was told by the pastor she had to stay with her violently abusive huspand because it was her duty as a godly wife. Also, women cannot use birth control because it is sinful. There was a time a woman whispered to me that she was praying for a miscarriage because after 5 kids she couldn't handle the thought of having more.

When I discussed some of these Christian ideas with my Muslim co-worker, he was appalled. He thought it was ironic that, as a brown-skinned Muslim, people in the US thought he was dangerous, while it was I who had more contact with extremist people and ideas.
It is strange reading Osama Bin Ladin's sermons. Some of his ideas and themes are so similar to the Sunday sermons at my childhood church, it makes me feel nauseated and nostalgic at the same time.

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» RE: Thanks for telling the truth Sarah Posted by: progressivetype
this country wasn't founded by christians
Posted by: vasumurti on Jan 15, 2008 9:20 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In 1787 when the framers excluded all mention of God from the Constitution, they were widely denounced as immoral and the document was denounced as godless, which is precisely what it is. Opponents of the Constitution challenged ratifying conventions in nearly every state, calling attention to Article VI, Section 3: “No religious test shall be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

An anti-federalist in North Carolina wrote: “The exclusion of religious tests is by many thought dangerous and impolitic. Pagans, Deists and Mohammedans might obtain office among us.” Amos Singletary of Massachussetts, one of the most outspoken critics of the Constitution, said that he “hoped to see Christians (in power), yet by the Constitution, a papist or an infidel was as eligible as they.”

Luther Martin, a Maryland delegate to the Constitutional Convention of 1787 wrote that “there were some members so unfashionable as to think that a belief in the existence of a Deity, and of a state of future rewards and punishments would be some security for the good conduct of our rulers, and that in a Christian country, it would be at least decent to hold out some distinction between the professors of Christianity and downright infidelity or paganism.” Martin’s report shows that a “Christian nation” faction had its say during the convention, and that its views were consciously rejected.

The United States Constitution is a completely secular political document. It begins “We the people,” and contains no mention of “God,” “Jesus,” or “Christianity.” Its only references to religion are exclusionary, such as the “no religious test” clause (Article VI), and “Congress shall make no laws respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” (First Amendment)


The presidential oath of office, the only oath detailed in the Constitution, does not contain the phrase “so help me God” or any requirement to swear on a Bible (Article II, Section 1). The words “under God” did not appear in the Pledge of Allegiance until 1954, when Congress, under McCarthyism, inserted them.

Similarly, “In God we Trust” was absent from paper currency before 1956, though it did appear on some coins beginning in 1864. The original U.S. motto, written by John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Jefferson, is “E Pluribus Unum” (“Of Many, One”) celebrating plurality and diversity.

In 1797, America made a treaty with Tripoli, declaring that “the government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” This reassurance to Islam was written under Washington’s presidency and approved by the Senate under John Adams.

We are not governed by the Declaration of Independence. Its purpose was to “dissolve the political bonds,” not to set up a religious nation. Its authority was based upon the idea that “governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,” which is contrary to the biblical concept of rule by divine authority. The Declaration deals with laws, taxation, representation, war, immigration, etc., and doesn’t discuss religion at all. The references to “Nature’s God,” “Creator,” and “Divine Providence” in the Declaration do not endorse Christianity. Its author, Thomas Jefferson, was a Deist, opposed to Christianity and the supernatural.

“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to me so pure as that of Jesus,” wrote Thomas Jefferson. However, Jefferson admitted, “In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man and that other parts are the fabric of very inferior minds...”

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Jefferson and Madison
Posted by: vasumurti on Jan 15, 2008 9:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jefferson was deeply suspicious of religion and of clergy wielding political power.

Jefferson helped create the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom in 1786, incurring the wrath of Christians by his fervent defense of toleration of atheists: “The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are only injurious to others. But it does no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.” Jefferson advocated a “wall of separation” between church and state not to protect the church from government intrusion, but to preserve the freedom of the people:

“I consider the doctrines of Jesus as delivered by himself to contain the outlines of the sublimest morality that has ever been taught;” he observed, “but I hold in the most profound detestation and execration the corruptions of it which have been invested by priestcraft and established by kingcraft, constituting a conspiracy of church and state against the civil and religious liberties of mankind.”

Jefferson and the founding fathers were products of the Age of Enlightenment. Their world view was based upon Deism, secularism, and rationalism.

“The priests of the different religious sects dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight,” wrote Jefferson. “The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter...we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away all this...”

As late as 1820, Jefferson was convinced everyone in the United States would die a Unitarian. Jefferson, Madison and Paine’s writings indicate that America was never intended to be a Christian theocracy. “I have sworn upon the altar of God,” wrote Jefferson, “eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.”

In his 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists, Jefferson wrote: “Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ‘make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,’ thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.”

As president, Jefferson refused to issue proclamations calling for days of prayer and fasting, insisting that they violate the First Amendment. As early as 1779, Jefferson proposed a bill before the Virginia legislature that would have established a series of elementary schools to teach the basics—reading, writing, and arithmetic. Jefferson even suggested that “no religious reading, instruction, or exercise shall be prescribed or practiced, inconsistent with the tenets of any religious sect or denomination.” Jefferson did not regard public schools as the proper agent to form children’s religious views.

James Madison opposed state-paid chaplains, writing, “The establishment of the chaplainship to Congress is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles.” He also concluded that his calling for days of prayer and fasting during his presidency had been unconstitutional. In an 1819 letter to Robert Walsh, Madison wrote, “the number, the industry and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the state."

--Why the Religious Right is Wrong About Separation of Church and State, by Rob Boston (2003).

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» RE: Can't argue with them Posted by: luckypuck
Early Christian Tenet.
Posted by: symcokid on Jan 15, 2008 9:40 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Early Christianist desire to practice Religion of their choice without persecution was an admiralistic intent of a few suppressed Idealists I guess. The one thing that will never be clear though is why their beliefs were touted as the one "True Religion". They invaded this land to practice their beliefs while at the same time denouncing all other Religions and absolutely rejecting the Native Indians right to their "Spirituality" and dehumanizing them in the process.

Things aren't really all that much different today as the Churches all claim they are the one True Light and their God is the only real God. The only thing that really prevails today is chaos and mistrust of most organized Religions, one is just as well off becoming an Agnostic or Atheist, at least for some of us.

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» RE: arly Christian Tenet. Posted by: xtine
» RE: arly Christian Tenet. Posted by: carbon-based
If the Democrats are in so-called "control", it's a total shame the theocrats are still winning big!
Posted by: maxpayne on Jan 15, 2008 10:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But let us not forget that back in 2005, when the Bush admin and GOP TRASHED the Constitution with the Terri Schiavo case, the Democrats actually aided them by showing up and even voting along with them. Now that they're in the majority ready to FUCK the country to further doom and gloom, maybe we voters would do a hell of a lot better to completely trash both the Democrats and Republicans and give other parties a chance and keep experimenting until progressivism, liberalism, and civil libertarianism for the people finally make their comebacks !

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Coming to your neighboorhood soon
Posted by: reval on Jan 15, 2008 10:22 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A warning to those considering becoming a Book of the Month Club Member in China:
DO NOT order or accept delivery of the following book: Zhuan Falun

Banned, confiscated, and publicly burned by the millions in mainland China as part of the persecution of Falun Gong, which started in 1999. The estimated 70-100 million practitioners within China who read the book are subject to persecution, including imprisonment, forced labour, torture, psychiatric abuses and organ harvesting. The persecution is a large-scale political campaign waged by the Chinese Communist Party, designed to maintain and reinforce autocratic rule.

The Huckelhussler and his cadre of zombie deity worshippers promise to make this a reality in your neighborhood soon. Daring to even be in the presence of anything written by Dawkins, Harris or Hitchens will carry the same penalty.
~Rev. El
Pastor, WVCSR

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A strategy and a plan
Posted by: luckypuck on Jan 15, 2008 10:33 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article and the thread following it are fascinating. The discussion is a curious mix of dissent and agreement. There is too much here for me to digest quickly, but, in the interest of timeliness, an important factor on blogs, I’m going to do something I haven’t done before. I will post a reply before sifting through and fact-checking the data.

First, you all have taught me much, perhaps too much all at once. The main article is about a political situation, but when mixed with religion the politics becomes complicated, confusing, divisive, unending and unresolvable. Most of all it is deflecting and/or distracting us from the main point. All this writing is fine and wonderful, but what’s most needed is a strategy and a plan. With all this complexity, what can be done about this House Resolution 888?

Let me be so bold as to suggest a SIMPLE possibility. The strategy: Introduce a House Resolution declaring the United States a SECULAR country where ALL religions are welcome and enjoy equal treatment under the law. The plan: Use the power of the internet to accomplish this proposal. Let Alternet set up and post a petition for anyone to sign and comment upon. Let Alternet send all these to our respective representatives. All of us then call or write our representatives personally. Challenge other blogs to do the same. Write letters to the editors of our local newpapers. See if we can start a groundswell of opposition to 888. Caveat: Make certain the bill is NOT numbered 666.

I’d be please to have your comments.

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» RE: A strategy and a plan Posted by: reval
» RE: A strategy and a plan Posted by: luckypuck
» RE: A strategy and a plan Posted by: progressivetype
» We don't have to do a thing. Posted by: Longdream
How about ACCURATE history week?
Posted by: nikolai on Jan 15, 2008 11:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How the Europeans brought disease to the Native Americans and killed them and stole their lands, and how the elite then and now are still doing this to native brown-skinned peoples, and have EXPANDED their murderous exploitation beyond the boundaries of the U.S.? How about how the Native American tribes around the U.S. were allowed to establish casinos as a payback for their lands after they began suing the U.S. government? (Funny how those lawsuits all quietly went away). How about how the Federal Reserve Act was passed in 1913 and how the Great Depression occurred in 1929 as a DIRECT RESULT, and how then SOME people DID HAVE MONEY, as money does not "dissappear" or "dry up" but is merely re-distributed among the few powerful enough to steal it? How about NAFTA? How about breaking the labor unions starting with Reagan's firing of the air traffic controllers? How about the military industrial complex? How about illegal CIA intervention in soverign nations around the globe stirring up trouble for the purpose of selling arms? How about the "War on Drugs" and how profitable it has been to both the cops and the dealers, and how it will therefore NEVER end? And how opium production in Afghanistan increased over 100% since the U.S. invaded? Let's teach history as it WAS, not how we want is to APPEAR. THEN religion would be included as it does have it's place in American history, though if it were being taught accurately it probably wouldn't come across as the religous conservatives want it to.

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Too Many Christians, Not Enough Lions....
Posted by: Animal on Jan 15, 2008 11:14 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's the trouble with this world.

What's been happening in this country proves beyond doubt that the Romans fucked up BIG TIME when they stopped feeding Christians to the lions.

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Excellent idea!
Posted by: reval on Jan 15, 2008 11:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let us know how we can help. We'll be happy to oblige in every possible way.
~Rev. El
Pastor, WVCSR

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» RE: xcellent idea! Posted by: luckypuck
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." Samuel Johnson
Posted by: nikolai on Jan 15, 2008 11:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think this states pretty clearly what has been the case since 9/11.

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Paranoid
Posted by: Upset on Jan 15, 2008 11:52 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Poor Chris! I think he is paranoid...Maybe a Christian under every bed.

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the 888 code
Posted by: wishninja on Jan 15, 2008 2:17 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.I . E . S .. O . U .. S. = JESUS (in greek)
10 + 8 +200 +70 +400 +200 = 888(greek numbers)

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» RE: the 888 code Posted by: Lauren
bendinriver
Posted by: bendinriver on Jan 15, 2008 2:28 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The 2 minute hate word today is
:"ISM"

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» RE: bendinriver Posted by: Lauren
A THOUGHT
Posted by: SOWILO on Jan 15, 2008 2:36 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Could this rise in Christian Fundamentalism in the United States be partially a reaction to the effects of multiculturalism in the West, particularly in the United States? Since Theodor Adorno declared that "there could be no poetry after Auschwitz" there has been a sustained assault on the classical canon in the West by advocates of multiculturalism. We are not allowed to look at the Greeks, Roman history, our classical art, Enlightenment values, or even just studying our religious texts in a scholarly light because we have to "humble ourselves before the Third World" meaning we have to cater to these cultures, while ours are being decimated. In laymans terms, white culture is not allowed to learn about itself. Does anyone wonder why all our teenagers are in failing schools, even failing private schools? Does anyone wonder why Americans, and now increasingly Europeans, are not allowed to learn anything? Why are our children medicated? Capitalism is only part of the problem. We are not allowed to learn about our culture, the culture that brought women's rights, free explorations of sexuality, advances in medicine, etc. We have to cater to witch doctors and brujas.

If anyone asked what the indigenous folk religion of Northern Europe was, would we be able to give the answer?

If a culture is the outward expression of the human soul, where does that leave us in this culture? A consumerist culture?

All across America funding is being cut for ballet, opera, classical art, while arts grants are going to middle class immigrants from Brazil, India, etc. Third World folk art has been a significant recipient from grants councils so to "educate the white people" about the Third Worlders.

Our people will increasingly turn toward the psychological slum-world of these fundie religions because THEY HAVE NOTHING ELSE.

We must save the West.

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» RE: A THOUGHT Posted by: Rufus T Firefly
» RE: A THOUGHT Posted by: SOWILO
ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: wireup on Jan 15, 2008 3:00 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Don't we have enough with religion and god being shoved down out throats, now, 24/7?

When do we get peace from this CRAP?

If you want to believe in these idiotic fairy tales, then do so but I BEG you - KEEP THIS NONSENSE TO YOURSELF. I'm NOT INTERESTED.

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Maybe it all goes back to the Salam Witches, whichever.
Posted by: leocthasme on Jan 15, 2008 4:48 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seems poor ol' Columbus brought the first batch of Christians to the New World. Some like to blame him for this but it really was not his doing. All the Papal Nuts of the day including Ferdenand and Elizebeth who loved the Roman Catholic Popes of their time gave Columbus the money to bring back whatever he could find in the New World. So he brought back a few Indians who the king and queen thought were infidells because they wore little clothing. They then sent the Spanish Conquestadors to Rape and Kill all the natives they could find from South America on through Mexica and up into Califorina because they were Pagans who didn't wear clothing. All that shit started long before Spanish kings and queens. It goes all the way back to 325 AD when Constitine called a big get together in Rome to set up the Catholic Church but left out the Christian Jews who really were followers of Christ (all the Apostols were Jews). So the Church the Roman chief set up was the same old Pagan Roman stuff that had always been in Rome only they upgraded it. Instead of the Resurection of Christ they Created Easter, named for Astarti the goddess of fertility. Instead of the winter holidays they set up Christmas as the birth of Christ. And before 400 AD they had all sort of old Pagan holidays turned into Cristian holidays. Only reason for that was to get the Pagans to quit killing the Christians. Now as I see it if the Christians had been following the word of God or Jesus Christ they would not have given into these sort of 'give ins' just to save their asses but instead would have suffered for their faith the same as Jesus Christ. So Christianity in todays form is just a give in to get what so called Christians want, not to follow the teachings of Christ. In todays world, or in todays US so called Christian world, these nuts use the Pat Robinsons and other Pulpit Pounders to preach their bullshit the same as Constitine did to get the Christians and Pagans in Rome to quit killing each other. In todays world if Jesus Christ were around he would probably be a Liberal Democrat. If I read his story right, these so called Christians of today Jesus Christ would 'spit out of his mouth' as I see his comments. The so called Christians of today only want to rule America as they want for their gainiful purpose only. "EveryBody Be Good, Obey The Preacher, and Feed the Kitty". All 700 club types, 'send money and we will pray for you'. Anybody know of any case where a Preacher was sent money and something good happened. Please verify the event if that is possible.
Leocthasme

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Christian Fascists
Posted by: Jersey Devil on Jan 15, 2008 5:19 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So Huckabee wants to model the United States of America on the words of a dead Jewish criminal who was convicted by the local Jewish leaders. They consider fictional novels written 60 to 100 years after the death of Jesus by nobodies as the devine word of their God, bullshit.

These supposed men of God who profess a great love for their Jesus should also be willing to sacrifice themselves for their beliefs and give up their posh lifestyles for chastity, poverty, and obedience to the "true word" of their God.

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Religions are bullshit.
Posted by: thekidde on Jan 15, 2008 6:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Any questions?

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Democracy is of the Devil
Posted by: Rufus T Firefly on Jan 15, 2008 6:21 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have always wondered about the Right wing assertion that we are a Christian Nation or that we were founded on Christian values. It's been a while, but I don't remember democracy ever appearing in the Bible. When did the Children of Abraham ratify the Ten Commandments or vote on the uncleanliness of pork amendment?
Seems to me that according to the Bible, the ideal political relationship between the government and the governed is a monarchy not a democracy. God is pretty un-American if you ask me...

And if we were a Christian Nation, we would be more concerned with the poor and meek, rather than waging preemptive war.

Oh Irony, fickle is the fruit of your garden...

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» RE: Democracy is of the Devil Posted by: desertlakes
Yikes..a counterweight to the progressive seculars..awful!!
Posted by: knight on Jan 15, 2008 6:45 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Woow,so you mean to tell me that in this country there are still people who believe in God? That s good news,I don t see them as threat or radicals,just because they pass a resolution,much like an executive order recognizing a holiday,is not going to force you worship any particular deity,or not worship,but the mentions of God in our history and some of our founding documents,how do you explain that? some of the signers of the Constitution were indeed people of the cloth, the farewell address of some of our Founders were laden with christian quotations,if a resolution like #888 can bring some sanity to our nation and lower crime and murder that our secular progressives have unleashed,well my question to you all is:"where do I sign up?" may be passing such resolution is not such a bad idea after all...and please read your history before you say that all the Founders were deists,pleeease...one only has to look at our historic buildings and government buildings to know what religion at one point was the main and citizens were encouraged to follow it.

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» RE: Many thanks! Posted by: luckypuck
The Truth Will Set Us Free.
Posted by: Longdream on Jan 15, 2008 7:10 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Especially when it comes out of the mouth of a political religionist like Huckabee, and when it concerns his plans to Save (R) us all.

Unlike George Bush, Huckabee is the real thing. He really believes in God, and probably lives by the dictates of his church and his ministry.

But today, in Michigan, he said with his own mouth, in front of a lot of people and their recording devices, that he would like to modify the Constitution to reflect God's Law, not any of these modern constructs that we've made up to get along with each other--i.e. there will be a Constitutional Amendment decreeing that marriage will be between a man and a woman. And one upholding the "sanctity of life".

Previous statements from his office denied that he wanted to amend the Constitution.

His handlers opined that he could have phrased things more gracefully or something like that, and that he was probably "caught up in the moment." They then went to see if Romney had any jobs open.

Religious or not, where does a man acquire this kind of arrogant entitlement?

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God, Christians are scary!
Posted by: Philip Newton on Jan 15, 2008 7:51 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While I agree (for once) with the basic thrust of Hedges' argument: there are those who push a backdoor theocracy, and dead-end bills such as this (can you say "snowball's chance?") are to be reviled as much for their inaccuracy as their intent ("Theist" would describe many of the Founders better than "Christian" for instance), the Excitable Mister Hedges has once again wet his panties in fear of those who dare declare their faith in the public arena.

In the delicate Consitutional balancing act that is the expression of faith (or its lack) in public life, panty-wetters like Hedges are just as creepy as the Pat Robertsons of this country.

Both camps represent distortions and are havens for woefully unconstitutional First Amendment abusers.

A pox on both their houses

Grade: C - (for effort)

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» RE: God, Christians are scary! Posted by: Longdream
» Longdream: Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: Longdream: Posted by: Longdream
» RE: Longdream: Posted by: Philip Newton
Or, rather...
Posted by: Philip Newton on Jan 15, 2008 7:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Deists.

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Public arena vs government property
Posted by: luckypuck on Jan 15, 2008 10:49 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think there are problems with saying religionists should be prohibited from public expressions of their faith. First, there is no delicate Constitutional balancing act. The First Amendment is crystal clear that denying people the right to express their faith, indeed, even to pray in public (Matt 6:6 notwithstanding) is unconstitutional.

What also is unconstitutional is anything that gives even a whiff of the government establishing a state religion. In its simplest form, the First Amendment prohibits public expression of faith, including prayer, on GOVERNMENT PROPERTY. That includes courthouses, government offices, military installations, public schools, cars, planes, proclamations, rest rooms, money and you get the picture. That’s why “In God We Trust” was NOT chosen as a motto by the founders. At a time when being a UNITED country was paramount to success, at a time when they were embroiled in many contentious issues such as slavery, they didn’t want anything so overtly divisive and exclusive. As vasumurti points out above, they chose “E Pluribus Unum” because it was IN-clusive and more a reflection of the kind of government they envisioned. They hoped that it would calm those Christians who objected so vehemently to secularizing the Constitution and omitting any reference to religion in it.

If in public arenas expressions of faith disturb you, you are not FORCED to listen, you can just walk away. ALL citizens hold the public arena in common. In a sense we ALL own it. Owning it, we can each, individual citizens, do whatever we want in that arena. How many times have we told would-be censors of TV if they object to something in a program, they should just change the channel. Same thing. On the other hand, if that expression of faith is on or in government property, we are held in thrall by our business before our government, we can’t just walk away. And if our government officials are doing the expressing, it creates the impression that someone of a faith different than that expressed, will not receive the equal treatment that paying taxes and enforcing the Constitution guarantees.

The REAL outrage is that we all write and write and write . . . but DO nothing.

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» I agree Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: I agree Posted by: luckypuck
» RE: I agree Posted by: Philip Newton
What happened to the idea...
Posted by: Bearzerker on Jan 16, 2008 3:59 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...of the SEPARATION of CHURCH & STATE?...

this is what happens when you let narrow minded closeted individuals in charge... of anything!

All I can see is the "US Constitution" and "Bill of Rights" steadily being violated at every turn...

This past 7 years truly has to be the darkest moments in American History... ever...

Where did it all go wrong?
Did it actually start with the "Patriot Act" or
was this mess a planned evolutionary catastrophe going back decades?

If this actually passes into law, and if the justice departments doesn't nix it...
then hell surely has frozen over and the devil has already laced up his ice skates!

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On this date......
Posted by: reval on Jan 16, 2008 4:39 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
......in 1786, Thomas Jefferson's Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom passed. The preamble is a sweeping indictment of state-dictated religion, noting that "false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time" have been maintained through the church-state. "To compell a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves is sinful and tyrannical . . . our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry. . ." The heart of the Statute has been replicated in differing versions in most state constitutions (see quote below). So important was this Statute to Jefferson that he gave these instructions for the epitaph to be placed on his tombstone: "Thomas Jefferson/Author of the Declaration of American Independence, of the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom & Father of the University of Virginia." Omitting his two terms as president, Jefferson wrote these were the "testimonials that I have lived [and by which] I wish most to be remembered."
~Rev. El
Pastor, WVCSR

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» Amen Posted by: Philip Newton
» RE: Amen Posted by: reval
» RE: Amen Posted by: Philip Newton
Chris Hedges gets it wrong . . .
Posted by: KarateCowboy on Jan 16, 2008 8:37 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is irritating that Pulitzer Prizes can go to American journalists whose writing is ignorant of the very basics of civics and American history. In this article Chris Hedges claims:

This is an insidious attempt by the radical Christian right to rewrite American history, to turn the founding fathers from deists into Christian fundamentalists, to proclaim us officially to be a Christian nation.

Deism, by definition, is :
deism

/deeiz’m, day-/
• noun belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. Compare with THEISM.

And theism is:

theism

/theeiz’m/
• noun belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe. Compare with DEISM.


Now, many junior high students could tell you as a matter of fact that the majority of the Founding Fathers believed in Providence, automatically barring them from qualification as deists. But not Pulitzer Prize-winning Chris Hedges. Furthermore:

The phrase "Founding Fathers" is a proper noun. It refers to a specific group of men, the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention. There were other important players not in attendance, like Jefferson, whose thinking deeply influenced the shaping of our nation. These 55 Founding Fathers, though, made up the core.
The denominational affiliations of these men were a matter of public record. Among the delegates were 28 Episcopalians, 8 Presbyterians, 7 Congregationalists, 2 Lutherans, 2 Dutch Reformed, 2 Methodists, 2 Roman Catholics, 1 unknown, and only 3 deists--Williamson, Wilson, and Franklin--this at a time when church membership entailed a sworn public confession of biblical faith.(John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution, (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1987), p. 43.)

This is a revealing tally. It shows that the members of the Constitutional Convention, the most influential group of men shaping the political foundations of our nation, were almost all Christians, 51 of 55--a full 93%. Indeed, 70% were Calvinists (the Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and the Dutch Reformed), considered by some to be the most extreme and dogmatic form of Christianity.

str.org


As we can see, the inverse of what Chris Hedges believes is true. The Founding Fathers were mostly fundamentalist in their religiousness. He is also wrong in assuming that 'theocrats' --his term for people who believe religion in the public square is OK, believe that the clergy should have governmental powers. Well,perhaps there are theocrats out there, but their number is so small it is negligible.

Truth, not lies. Facts, not ignorance.

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» Excellent Posted by: Philip Newton
Religion: A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable
Posted by: Ignatz deFyre on Jan 16, 2008 9:56 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
- Ambrose Bierce.

It's my supposition that intellectually developed, spiritually secure, emotionally grounded and economically satisfied persons have no need for organized religion. For everyone who is bereft of all or any of the above, there is fear and hope, and fear and hope is what organized religion peddles.

Turning to religion for support has historically been the human reaction to contemporary forces that have negative social and economic impacts. When all else fails, people almost turn to their god(s). The fasci-capitalism at work today may well bring on another Dark Age in reaction.

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Dream
Posted by: Dream on Jan 16, 2008 6:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I for one, a nonchristian, am happy to have a "week of the bible" and any diologe that claims that this country is founded on the bible. The United States of America is a corporation and I love how the bible clearifies that there is a jurisdiction beyond the reach of government.

Debt and sin are synonymous.

Liberty has been defined in the early years of the corporate surpreme court as more than the ability to move about. Liberty is inclusive of the right to live unencumbered and the pursuit of happiness.

As the corporation THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA becomes more totalitarian and oppressive, it is good to have these proclamations for a higher power that have set us free. The bible becomes a source for which the common man can say, "Show me the contract where the Lord has sold me to you." "Show me the contract that binds me to specific performance."

It is an advantage to appear in courts and be able to rely on the bible with the attitude of divine inheritance, because government has repeatedly held that it is supreme law. No court will say that it is not. The bible clearly says a person can know the level of the Spirit of Lord in their life by the level of liberty they enjoy.

Bottom line, we should embrace the mandates of love, peace, and the inheritance of being sons and daughters of God - which is above the jurisdictions of governments. How we express that in our personal lives, or not, is between ourselves and the Divine. If you are an individual that does not believe in any higher power, well that is between you and the Divine as well.

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888 now and the Consitution rewritten next
Posted by: desertlakes on Jan 16, 2008 9:02 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is scary stuff!! Mike Huckabee in Michigan said he wants to rewrite the Constitution to follow God's teachings and words. They don't follow Jesus' teachings. I call them Old Testamentalists, because all their Hate speech comes from the Old Testament. Has anyone seen the movie "A Handmaiden's Tale"? Rent it or Buy it. It should scare you as much as it scares me. Our Founding Fathers had ancestors, who went through centuries in Europe of Religious Wars. If the Fundamentalists get control the 30 Years War will look like a romp in the park. It's not enough even to be Christian (Religious Left), you have to be their kind of Christian. They know all the answers and no one else knows anything. We have to contact our Representatives and get them to vote against this 888.

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This country ws founded on the BIBLE
Posted by: TRUECRISTIAN on Jan 17, 2008 9:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And there is enough proof in nature to prove that God
exists along with the Bible which has records of things we know
happened. ...evidently you are too blinded by Satan or just plain to
ignorant to see the LOVE of God. God doesn't send people to Hell. They
choose not to accept his free gift of salvation from sin and have to
go there because He can't allow sin in heaven. Hitler and Stalin
tortured and killed people because they wanted the power. they didn't
make a way of escape like God did and to compare God to them is
blasphemy. I challenge you to read the Bible through entirely with an
open mind and then tell me God doesn't love you. and as for proof of
the Bible how about the Flood scientist have said that there was a bid
flood at one time, the bible records that.

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» Question for TRUECRISTIAN Posted by: sanddollar
historical details
Posted by: pbutler on Jan 18, 2008 5:24 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Chris Rodda nails H.Res 888, going to the original sources to identify clearly intentional distortions of history by the hyperchristians:

... an 1819 bill that appropriated a small amount of money for Indian mission schools to add agriculture education to their curriculums.
... Several of these were nothing more than provisions compensating missionaries for the churches and other buildings they lost when Indian land was ceded and/or relocating the missionaries to the land reserved to the Indians in the treaty. Another example, the 1794 treaty with the Oneida and other tribes, included a provision to build a church to replace a church that the British had burnt down when these tribes sided with the Americans during the Revolutionary War. In this same fifty year period, only one treaty provided direct funding to schools run by a religious organization. ...


Of course, dispossessing and erasing Native tribes from history is hardly new to professional god-fearing Americans...

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
why god hate gay?
Posted by: brucerise on Jan 20, 2008 6:38 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
God creates gay, why hates them?
Bi,Gay,Lesbian
http://Findbilover.com

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