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Experts Question Clinton's New Hampshire Primary Win

By Steven Rosenfeld, AlterNet. Posted January 11, 2008.


As activists crunch vote totals seeking signs of fraud, Dennis Kucinich’s campaign requests a recount.
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Election integrity activists parsing the precinct-level results from New Hampshire's Democratic Primary say their early analyses have found anomalies suggesting vote totals may have been altered to deliver a Hillary Clinton victory.

The activists, led by the Election Defense Alliance, a nonprofit formed after the 2004 election when exit polls also predicted a victory by a candidate other then the eventual winner, point to a series of discrepancies when comparing the official results from hand-counted and machine-counted paper ballots. Computer scanners, much like a standardized test, counted 80 percent of the ballots.

They begin by noting that Barack Obama won in hand-counted precincts, which tend to be more rural with fewer voters. In contrast, Clinton won in the precincts where computers tallied results, which are larger towns, cities and Boston suburbs. That discrepancy suggested that had the computer-counted ballots been tallied by hand, Clinton might not have won a victory defying pre-election polls, the activists said.

Anthony Stevens, New Hampshire's assistant secretary of state, said on Thursday that the hand count-computer count discrepancy was not unusual. He noted that in 2004 Democrat Howard Dean largely carried the hand-count precincts while John Kerry won most of the computer-count locales.

However, later on Thursday, Bruce O'Dell, an information technology consultant who is coordinating Election Defense Alliance's analysis, found the percentages of the vote given to Obama and Clinton, according to which counting method was used, were mirror images "down to the sixth decimal place."

"There is a remarkable relationship between Obama and Clinton votes, when you look at votes tabulated by op-scan (computers) versus votes tabulated by hand:

Clinton optical scan: 91,717 (52.95%)

Obama optican scan: 81,495 (47.05%)

Clinton hand-counted: 20,889 (47.05%)

Obama hand-counted: 23,509 (52.95%)

"The percentages seem to be swapped," he wrote, in a short piece posted Thursday on OpEdNews.com. "That seems highly unusual, to say the least."

O'Dell's report has lead many election integrity activists to conclude that New Hampshire's Democratic primary was "stolen" for Clinton. There have been numerous emails saying exactly that on a list-serve used by activists who are parsing the official primary results. Clinton beat Obama by 7,603 votes, according to the official results.

Interviewed on Friday, O'Dell said it was premature to jump to any conclusion other than the Democratic primary results were "suspect." He and others involved in scrutinizing the primary data said activists and others who were making premature conclusions would undermine their efforts to investigate the vote count.

"We are trying to be very careful on how we are phrasing this," he said.

Parsing the primary vote

O'Dell said he is focusing on examining the results within New Hampshire counties, to see if there are variations in candidate percentages in nearby precincts where ballots were counted by hand and counted by computer scanners. If there are variations in areas with similar socioeconomic profiles, he said that would re-enforce "the hypothesis" that the computerized count was inaccurate.

"This is a data-mining exercise," O'Dell said, adding that by Friday he and other researchers had narrowed their focus to three counties in southeastern New Hampshire, where most of the state's population lives. "We have made a considerable amount of progress," he said.

O'Dell's methodology has precedents. Election integrity activists in Ohio used it after 2004 to show the uneven deployment of voting machines in Franklin County caused John Kerry to lose nearly 17,000 votes. That figure emerged after activist investigators found that some precincts in Columbus's inner city lacked sufficient numbers of voting machines. Thus, by comparing voter turnout in the properly supplied precincts to nearby precincts that lacked machines -- causing long lines and people to leave -- they projected how many votes were lost. That analysis led a federal judge to order Ohio counties to preserve 2004 election records.

O'Dell also said he was looking for New Hampshire precincts with spikes in voter turnout and precincts where Clinton's margin was significantly greater than in neighboring towns. Spikes and margins, if found, could suggest vote padding. This methodology was used in Ohio in 2004, notably by Democratic staff investigators for the House Judiciary Committee, who found improbably high turnouts and vote margins favoring George W. Bush in rural counties.


Digg!

See more stories tagged with: polling, voting system, election 2008, hillary clinton, barack obama, new hampshire

Steven Rosenfeld is a senior fellow at Alternet.org and co-author of What Happened in Ohio: A Documentary Record of Theft and Fraud in the 2004 Election, with Bob Fitrakis and Harvey Wasserman (The New Press, 2006).

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He'd be better off donating his $2,000 to charity
Posted by: NHlibrarian on Jan 11, 2008 7:32 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a NH voter, I have the utmost confidence in our system. Although we have electronic scanners, everything is backed up by paper. I can see no reason why anyone would attempt to change votes in a primary, especially one as high-profile as this one was. In NH we take the whole voting process very seriously. I've lost some of the admiration I had for Dennis Kucinich as a result of his recount request--he's barking up the wrong tree! He should save his challenge money for when it really matters--the election in November.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Why not be certain? Posted by: rjgwood
» RE: Why not be certain? Posted by: johngary66
» Go Dennis!! Posted by: fluffmuffinmom
» I've seen it done Posted by: taylorpandrews
» RE: I've seen it done Posted by: Longdream
» RE: I've seen it done Posted by: taylorpandrews
» Diebold voting machines... Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» RE: He'd be better off donating his $2,000 to charity Posted by: hungarian great bela tarr
» RE: Kucinich: Democrats Fear Him Posted by: left_libertarian
Unless and until our are elections are secure ...
Posted by: TarryFaster on Jan 11, 2008 7:33 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ALL OTHER ISSUES ARE MOOT!

If we can't control who is running our government, we don't have a democracy; we just have another media extravaganza designed to distract us while our ship of state sinks.

At least, during this election cycle, Kucinich is attempting to deal with this issue before and not after the fact -- once again w/o the help of the MSM, of course.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

yet another circular firing squad
Posted by: allyourbasearebelongtous on Jan 11, 2008 7:39 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
okay its one thing when we accuse repugs of vote fraud but when we start saying that to each other that's just a problem we don't need. we need to try and remember that we are all on the same side.

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» RE: yet another circular firing squad Posted by: sallythewally
» RE: yet another circular firing squad Posted by: sallythewally
» I can guarantee you Posted by: Tombo
» hillary is mostly a republican Posted by: WhuThe?!?
» Rove and Bush are nobodies Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: yet another circular firing squad Posted by: hungarian great bela tarr
» In case you hadn't noticed Posted by: leafsong1
Are the pollsters that bad?
Posted by: vision on Jan 11, 2008 7:52 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems that a lot of elections recently have defied pollsters' predictions and delivered victories for more establishment-friendly candidates. So, one question is - in the pre-electronic voting age, did pollsters often make the same sort of mistakes? Or is this a trend that has emerged recently?

Whatever the case here, and in Iowa in '04, and in Florida in 2000 - there's legitimate reason for concern. Diabold makes ATM machines that deliver receipts - is it really too much to ask them to do the same for our voting machines? Even if had never been anomalies or accusations of fraud, we still need transparent voting mechanisms. It's time to DEMAND CHANGE.

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Who brought up the exit poll - final count discrepancy?
Posted by: sallythewally on Jan 11, 2008 8:36 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When did the issue of exit polls differing from the final count come up? I thought the problem was that the pre-primary polls differed and that this was why the pundits that night were so slow to project the win.

So the exit polls, never mentioned in the continuous coverage that night, were showing Obama the winner?

I live in Ohio and I remember that the ONLY times the exit polls differed from the "final" count were in Florida in 2000 and in Ohio in 2004, and in both instances the count suddenly changed when Gore and then Kerry were way ahead of Bush - a couple of hours later they were both behind....

So who first brought up the exit poll - final count discrepancy?

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I think the repugs are behind it.
Posted by: optimist on Jan 11, 2008 8:48 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They want Hillary to win the nomination - they believe they can beat her in the election!

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» RE: I think the repugs are behind it. Posted by: sallythewally
» I Agree Posted by: QQOblivion
The Dems Want Her to Win Too!!
Posted by: fluffmuffinmom on Jan 11, 2008 10:21 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That way, nothing will change. The ruling class is very happy with their little war, private schools, huge tax breaks, private health insurance, and giant gas guzling SUVs - no matter which side of the aisle they are on or which party they vote for.

A vote for Hillary is a vote for continued corporate domination of our cultural/political and system - it's as simple as that. Why would people who stand to (continue to) benefit from that domination want anyone else?

And who knew Bill could be such a dick when faced with the possibility of losing the omnipotent power he's grown so accustomed to? I don't know about any of you, but those two power hungry control freaks,Bill & Hill, are really starting to scare me.

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Have any of you watched WTC7 fall?
Posted by: Missing Piece on Jan 11, 2008 10:49 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Expert demolition experts have watched it fall and know that was professionally imploded. Knowing this kind of changes your reality and stuff like paperless voting machines and automated vote counting machines start to make sense. The rabbit hole is deep and you must prepare yourself for what is to come, police state using propaganda and prisons to control us as energy becomes too expensive for the masses.

Good luck, remember they will make us fight each other instead of them

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» a kucinich/paul ticket Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» RE: a kucinich/paul ticket Posted by: magus65
» RE: a kucinich/paul ticket Posted by: Longdream
ENTITLEMENT. That is what I dislike and the reason I won't vote Democratic. . .
Posted by: Prairie Waif on Jan 11, 2008 10:50 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
if Hillary Clinton is The DNC's annointed Presidential Candidate.

She didn't cry because of fatigue and more so than any other candidate suffering from the battle and mean-spiritedness of the campaign trail (read about John Edwards' trials in this emailing), she cried because her self-perceived entitlement to power appeared to be slipping from her well-greased palms.

I know there are people that will not agree with me. They voted for her.

The REPUBLICANS are in prayer circles praying that the Democrats seize defeat from the jaws of victory by anointing Clinton as our Presidential Candidate. They know it would bring every single-issue voter and every loonie issue voter in the country out to vote against the "Clinton legacy."

What a mistake the country will make to put Bill back in the White House with Hillary at his side. Because as much as she'd like to think they would be "electing the first woman president," the black vote has consistantly said, "It will be nice to have Bill back in the White House, he was a great President."

Hillary should take her own career up and stop trying to prove she *is* or *can* do better than her philandering husband.

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dipconsult
Posted by: dipconsult on Jan 11, 2008 11:33 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With the US rightly so keen on democracy why does it not provide for paper votes to be counted with scrutinisers present from each candidate as we do in the UK and other European countries?

The argument that the US is so big is no excuse: the precincts are no bigger or hardly bigger than in Europe.

Democracy comes at a price and accurate unassailable vote counting has to be paid for.

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» RE: dipconsult Posted by: jarnabi
Sign the petition at http://pol.moveon.org/paper2008
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jan 11, 2008 11:45 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://pol.moveon.org/paper2008

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Karl-Rove-ian Crap
Posted by: QQOblivion on Jan 12, 2008 9:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hillary shows herself to be like a Republican again, this time by cheating and stealing the vote. That is, of course, if the Republicans aren't behind the vote-stealing. You see, Hillary is the leading Democratic candidate most likely to lose in November. (If she gets the nomination then many liberals and Democrats will vote for a third party, splitting the anti-Republican vote. Some on the Left will even vote Republican if Hillary gets the nomination, especially if McCain gets the Repug nomination.)
I wouldn't deny that the Clinton campaign might try this kind of dirty trick. They have engaged in other kinds of dirty tricks before in this campaign, as we know.

This whole thing appears very Karl Rove-ian.
I don't care which side switched the votes in NH, the Republican side or the Clinton campaign. In either case I am sick of this Karl-Rove crap. We have enough of that over the last 8 years.

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rovian is now an adjective
Posted by: illit on Jan 12, 2008 10:17 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Diebold has a 10% error rate - machine failures, line failures, code failures, stupid voter/user failures, etc.

AND is extremely hackable.

At least the scanner technology has a paper backup and if no boxes of paper ballot/input are 'lost' then we can verify the votes.

The great thing about DK's recount is that we have a small state with paper backups!!!!
Maybe we can force those states (mine is one) with the paperless/auditless machines to change to something verifiable.

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» Rove is a four letter word Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
Kucinich's courage borders on the inhuman
Posted by: hellofriends on Jan 12, 2008 11:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...

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» *SNORT* Posted by: Longdream
My first reaction
Posted by: CTvoter on Jan 12, 2008 11:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My first reaction when I heard about this surprise come-back by Hillary: we are being conditioned to accept discrepancies between polls and voting machine outcomes much earlier in this campaign.

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this is a test
Posted by: cwilsondrum on Jan 12, 2008 12:04 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the same people who were in control of the machines in 2004 are still there. parties can change,but the hardware is the same. the public's reaction to these results of the primaries is what is being monitored,for obvious reasons. the more you test a lab animal, the more you learn. So, when the election comes,everyone will not be surprised when blackwater has to guard the election proccess........get it?

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SEClawyer
Posted by: SEClawyer on Jan 12, 2008 1:03 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course NH should recount paper back-up of a mostly untested data system; SC is wreckless not to have such a back-up of their new data system.

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Bunkum!
Posted by: keefus55 on Jan 12, 2008 3:10 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Folks, all this "voter fraud conspiracy" bunkum is just that.... bunkum!

Rather than constantly repeating this dogma, I suggest those who continue to cling to such baseless blather might want to first do a little more statistical digging. You might learn that the apparent "irregularities" that emerged in New Hampshire don't AT ALL prove what you may think they're proving.

In fact, what the statistics DO show is a repeat of voting patterns that pre-date the use of vote counting machines and that have been very much a part of elections in our State for decades. Factors such as education, income, age and where people choose to live are all factors that influence voters' choices here.

For example, in 2008, 2004 and in 2000, Democratic voting from those (usually larger) towns and cities (which just so happen to also use ballot-counting machines) were skewed toward Democratic primary winners Clinton, John Kerry and Al Gore. Conversely, overall second-place finishers Obama, Howard Dean and Bill Bradley won contests in towns where ballots are hand-counted.

That is, the EXACT SAME VOTING PATTERNS that have been observed in years past in New Hampshire again emerged in the vote last Tuesday. But, what is probably even more telling is that ALL of these past results remain consistent with a number of independent exit polls that were conducted by a number of organizations last Tuesday as well.

Manchester, for example, is New Hampshire's most populous city. It is largely a working class city and it uses vote-counting machines at its 12 polling stations. Mrs. Clinton won handily there Tuesday, just as previous winners Kerry and Gore did.

On the other hand, the small northern towns of Franconia, Sugar Hill and Bethlehem, which hand-count paper ballots, all went to Obama as they did for Dean in 2004 and Bradley in 2000.

What's more, Clinton, Kerry and Gore ALL seem to have attracted voters that fit a similar profile in New Hampshire. These voters have tended to be older, less likely to be college-educated and (on average) lower wage earners.

These are what I call the old time, "straight ticket" Democrats. They live mostly in the larger cities in our State and have consistently been voting for "next in line", labor-union-endorsed Democratic candidates (like Clinton, Gore, and Kerry) for decades.

On the other hand, those persons who voted for the so-called "upstarts"… Dean, Obama and Bradley…were most likely to be younger, have college degrees or postgraduate education, and be in a higher income bracket. And, as one would expect, these people tend to live outside the larger cities.

It is also important to remember that ALL ballots in New Hampshire elections are cast on paper. It's only some of the COUNTING that is done by machines. Roughly 58 percent, or 175 of New Hampshire's 301 precincts, count their paper ballots using AccuVote optical scan machines. These are the only voting machines that have been approved by the State. Touch-screen voting machines are NOT used in our State…ANYWHERE.

We New Hampshire voters have also traditionally been a cussed lot. We tend not to share who we will vote for with ANYBODY (including pollsters) until we actually cast our ballots in the voting booth on election day.

So, once again, the only "conspiracy" (if it can be called that) in the voting on Tuesday was simply us New Hampshire voters being our normal, independent and crusty selves…voting our conscience while taking sheer delight in confounding all the pollsters, pundits and talking heads…not to mention all the voting conspiracy theorists!

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» RE: Bunkum! Posted by: magus65
» RE: Bunkum! Posted by: keefus55
» RE: Bunkum! Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» Yaaaaaaaaay! Posted by: Longdream
» diebold voting machines are bunkum! Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» Thanks for some sanity Posted by: wavydavy
» RE: Thanks for some sanity Posted by: magus65
» RE: Thanks for some sanity Posted by: keefus55
» RE: Bunkum! Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Bunkum! Posted by: keefus55
» RE: Bunkum! Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Bunkum! Posted by: Trazom
» RE: Bunkum! Posted by: keefus55
For the Price of One Submarine or a Day of The Iraq War, America Could Have Scores of Real Elections
Posted by: sofla100 on Jan 12, 2008 3:34 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Voting districts say it is too expensive to use a paper ballot that is optically scanned. This is how it is done however in Europe and Russia. Then, a record exists of the vote that is on paper. But, America spends 3 billion on one new Trident submarine and over 270 million a day on the Iraq war. For this money, scores of elections could be conducted properly. It's not about money America, it's about priorities.

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» RE: Too expensive?? WTF?? Posted by: Longdream
sdk
Posted by: sdk on Jan 12, 2008 4:40 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything. - Joseph Stalin

Every election should be hand-counted - serious candidats and citizens should demand as much when possible. It has been demonstrated that electronic voting/counting machine code can be manipulated with relative ease. The 2004 Ohio debacle is likely the most apparent evidence that testify's to this fact.

The fact that such poorly coded machines are used to date is tragic in this democracy. A program that simply counts votes is not so complicated. Why is the source code not published? I cannot trust the use of such machines in any circumstance.

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» RE: sdk Posted by: Trazom
» RE: sdk Posted by: manatthewindow
Give me an F!
Posted by: PaulK on Jan 12, 2008 9:23 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Give me an F!
Give me an R!
Give me an A!
Give me a U!
Give me a D!

Massive vote fraud needs to be screamed! It is a dagger in the heart of a free nation.

I know, the current elections are already pretty bought and paid for. If that's your problem, just be obedient to a covenant between the departed, the living and unborn generations. Set up new elections.

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For all the people who say this is pointless
Posted by: uprightnetizen on Jan 12, 2008 9:38 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't know how people can ignore the possibility of voter fraud when it was obvious the 2004 election was rigged in multiple states:
http://www.projectcensored.org/newsflash/voter_fraud.html

Not every State has a rigged election system, but without transparency in the election process, how can you be sure? We shouldn't trust the corporate Democrats to uphold Democracy any more than corporate Republicans.

What we need is public PRECINCT-BY-PRECINCT results, so that every precinct worker can double-check the public results that they counted themselves. Until then, all we have is some election official behind closed doors, adding up precincts for each county... and we saw how that worked out in Ohio.

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Left vs Right = False Paradigm
Posted by: moontime on Jan 13, 2008 5:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find it troublesome that so many posters feel vote fraud is OK as long as one of your guys gets in.
The fact is, Hilary was chosen years ago to be the next president. There is an agenda higher than what she is claiming her platform is. The only two candidates on either side who are not bought and paid for are Kucinich and Ron Paul.
But forget sides. You need to break free from the false left-right paradigm. Its how they control you. United We Stand, Divided We Fall. And what do these elections do? Keep us divided. Meanwhile it does not matter who gets elected because they have a higher agenda. It will go the same whether Hilary or Romney get in.Think back to the last election and all the broken promises. The Dems won't end the war any more than the Repubs will end abortion. They just use these things to manipulate you. Please wake up and see that.

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» RE: Left vs Right = False Paradigm Posted by: left_libertarian
There is only one solution
Posted by: chomsky on Jan 13, 2008 6:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Cancel the presidential election and keep George W,. Bush in office until such time as we can be guaranteed accurate, secure election results!

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» RE: There is only one solution Posted by: Longdream
Good Grief!
Posted by: Longdream on Jan 13, 2008 7:45 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is why AlterNet makes me tired so that I swear off it for a year at a time.

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VOTING MACHINE COMPANIES CHEAT( MISSION STATEMENT)
Posted by: HANGTRAITORS on Jan 13, 2008 12:28 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WHY DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN BOTHER , ITS ALL RIGGED AND THE WINNER HAS ALREADY BEEN DECIDED BY THE UNKNOWN STOCKHOLDERS OF THE PRIVATELY OWNED FEDERAL RESERVE AND THEIR CORPORATE PARASITE FRIENDS AT BILDEBERGER..... THE VOTING IS RIGGED PEOPLE AND SO IS YOUR MEDIA.. ITS A PHONY BROADWAY PLAY WITH BAD ACTING... VOTE DIEBOLD, CAUSE THEY COUNT THE VOTES IN SECRET

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Election anomalies
Posted by: Robalt on Jan 13, 2008 1:22 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm a Ron Paul supporter. Although there were questions about voting anomalies in New Hampshire, I do not believe that there was any significant fraud in this election. There may have been human error, but that is to be expected and should affect all of the candidates equally. Furthermore, even if there was a recount, it would not effect the steam each of the front-runners have attained from their primary placements.

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Racist McCain also benefitted from vote fraud
Posted by: Reader11722 on Jan 13, 2008 2:11 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
John McCain and Clinton won heavily in Diebold districts. McCain also uttered racist remarks during the SC debate which the Mainstream Media continues to ignore. John McCain was openly racist in the SC debate, read it here:
John McCain's racism during SC debates

Unfortunately it took segregationist Governor Wallace to reveal the truth that "there's not a dime's worth of difference between" Republicans and Democrats. The Democrats willingly went along with the War in Iraq, suspension of Habeas Corpus, detaining protesters, banning books like America Deceived (book) from Amazon, stealing private lands (Kelo decision), warrant-less wiretapping and refusing to investigate 9/11 properly. They are both guilty of treason.
Support Dr. Ron Paul and save this great nation.

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Down to the sixth decimal place
Posted by: Trazom on Jan 13, 2008 2:16 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And here again we have highly improbable scientific data as a result of supposed "free and fair" elections, and yet many folks simply want everyone else to drop it already and move right along. Can somebody pinch me?

Not only is such an occurrence highly questionable, but I would say it is extremely, extremely improbable. Not impossible mind you, it could happen after all. But tomorrow you could also get struck by lightning AND win the lottery. That is not impossible. It is possible to calculate the odds of that happening, but I don't feel like carrying out all the computations. Suffice it to say, it is far from a regular occurrence.

For this fact alone the state of NH should be conducting a recount, both for the integrity of their system and for final validation of the vote tallies. But when did a little math ever seem to get in our way?

I don't understand how these machines can have a percent error of 10%. Is it due to misreads on the part of the optical scanner? If it's code we surely have a huge problem, because all the code does is keep a running tally per candidate. There couldn't be anything simpler for a programmer. Sure there might be some security and redundancy routines built in, but that's pretty much it. But since all this code is Diebold proprietary, we'll never know will we?

I feel that until computers are stricken from the task of tallying votes, we'll never either have a fair election or feel that we have a fair election. It doesn't really matter whether it's unfair or we think it unfair, the way we deal with it is the same. As someone who works with computers, I can tell you it is mind-boggingly simple for programmers/hackers to alter the code, especially given the fact that this messing with cannot be detected since the code is compiled from a high level language down into machine assembly language.

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Cooking the books IS the American way
Posted by: Whistler on Jan 13, 2008 3:46 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh ye of little mind. Thou thinketh thy government and de lawd gawd ahmighty are one and the same. Sorry. Democracy? Democratic? Fair? America ... all in the same sentence? Next joke. Make no mistake about it - I blame the people more than the crooks. When the police go on a holiday, the crooks come out of the cracks in the wall to practice their respective professions. When the people are out to lunch, the crooks take over your democracy. End of story.

You are out to lunch and have been for quite some time. Frankly, when you're THAT stupid, you deserve to be cheated and defrauded as punishment for your criminal-level laziness. Sleeping on the job costs you much: your democracy, your money, your lives, your credibility. George and his thugs poked you straight up the whazoo the last two presidential selections. What did you do about it. You went home and went to sleep and slept like a newborn baby. The next morning you even addressed the Scumbag-in-Thief as "Mr. President." After what you all know about electronic voting, why on earth do you still allow this filthy, crooked government and that filthy crooked Diebold to toss machines in front of you that can be flipped by a simple Blackberry? Why do you continue supporting a system where ONLY the filthy rich can participate? Why does it still make a difference about someone's personal sex life or their personal family life? Image is 99% of your qualifications. Damn the truth. Damn qualifications. Damn fairness. Image and money. So you should ASSUME that as you continue your slumber, selections - not elections - rule.

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Are american voters morons or what?
Posted by: hanex on Jan 13, 2008 4:57 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have voted in Italy, and I have voted in Canada for the last 12 years. I cannot believe the problems Americans have with simply voting. Check the Canadian News for the last implication of voter fraud, I haven't heard of one EVER, and cannot find one on any Canadian News Sites. Sure we have recounts, but thats only when the vote is close and its not because of fraud, just to verify the result.

We have 3 volunteers count votes from Elections Canada in every precinct, our precincts are very small so that even a conspiracy of 3 people would effect very little, and EVERY vote is recorded by hand in pencil. (Ever hear of a check mark?!)

How did the sheep get tricked into thinking that a machine is more reliable then you checking a box with a pencil? A pencil is the cheapest and most reliable thing in the world.


My message to Americans: This is the most important issue you have to fix. You do not have a democracy until EVERY election is hand counted.

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