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Is Prayer Good for Your Health?

By Stan Cox, AlterNet. Posted January 11, 2008.


Welcome to the weird world of medical prayer. What, if anything, does it accomplish?
20080110story
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As 2007 drew to a close, news media across the country reported on the usual holiday collection of medical miracles -- stories that almost always end with patients and family members giving credit to the healing power of prayer.

One survivor, a Christian heavy-metal vocalist who was struck in the neck in December's notorious Colorado church shootings, is now recovering, say his friends and fans, with the aid of prayer vigils throughout the United States and Europe.

And Christmas week, a 46-year-old Beach City, Ohio, surrogate mother, who had originally been thought to be carrying only one fetus, delivered a set of healthy twins after a difficult pregnancy. Her niece, the egg donor, announced that the double birth was the result of prayers she had secretly offered for months.

Arising partly out of religious belief and partly out of frustration with high-tech medicine, millions of prayers cross the lips of patients, family members, and even doctors and nurses each day in America's hospitals and examining rooms.

That has prompted a post-2000 wave of research aimed at determining what, if anything, all that praying accomplishes: Can it directly improve patients' health? Does it simply soothe? What happens if the patients aren't told they are being prayed for? And what if they do know -- can patients be harmed by prayer? The answers found so far don't seem to be making anyone feel much better.

Say two prayers and call me in the morning

A 1998 Harvard Medical School survey estimated that 35 percent of Americans pray for good health and that 69 percent of those who pray find it "very helpful" -- a bigger percentage than felt their visits to doctors had been very helpful. A much larger study conducted by the National Institutes of Health in 2002 found 43 percent of people in the United States pray for their own health, and 24 percent seek the prayers of others. Most strikingly, 73 percent of critical-care nurses in a 2005 national survey said they use prayer in their work.

Such results are no big surprise. Most Americans are religious believers and can recount for you any number of stories in which prayer appeared to heal. The highly respected Sidney Kimmel Comprehensive Cancer Center at Johns Hopkins University has even set up an "intensive prayer unit" to capture whatever benefits it might provide.

For medical prayer to have an effect, no actual divine or supernatural intervention is necessary; belief alone may give a psychological boost to a recovering patient. Any doctor or scientist wishing to lay bare the healing hand of God or the power of "energy medicine" finds that the placebo effect of prayer is much harder to account for than that of pharmaceuticals, which can be dispensed in controlled doses or replaced by sugar pills.

But one type of prayer experiment does attempt to account for the sugar-pill effect and thereby meet the rigorous statistical requirements of scientific journals. In randomized, double-blind studies, the praying is done by people who aren't in contact with the patients, the patients don't know whether they are being prayed for or not (and in some cases don't even know an experiment is going on), and the doctors and researchers don't know who is praying for whom as they go about treating patients and analyzing the data.

It's through such studies that a small cadre of researchers has been trying in recent years to go straight to the source, to determine whether prayers offered from a distance can heal patients' bodies without passing through their minds. Such "distant intercessory prayer" or "distant healing" studies have also become somewhat of a growth industry. Following only three papers published on the subject between 1960 and 1990 and just four during the 1990s, at least 18 new studies have hit the scientific literature since 2000.

Generous federal and private funding has helped fertilize work in this area, but results so far have been underwhelming. The majority of studies show no significant effects, positive or negative. Some actually find prayer harmful. Others have asked more specific questions: whether the benefits of prayer increase with "dosage" (they don't), whether it matters who does the praying (born-again Christians seem to have an edge, says one observer), and even whether prayers can travel back in time (you'll have to wait a bit for the answer to that one.)

The double-blind double-bind

A type of statistical merger -- called a "meta-analysis" -- of 15 distant-prayer studies, led by researchers at Syracuse University and published in 2006-07, was unequivocal in concluding that "there is no scientifically discernible effect for distant intercessory prayer on health," regardless of how often or how long patients were prayed for.


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See more stories tagged with: health, prayer

Stan Cox is a plant breeder and writer in Salina, Kan. His book Sick Planet: Corporate Food and Medicine will be published by Pluto Press in April.

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It couldn't hurt
Posted by: vox persona on Jan 11, 2008 12:41 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here is my Christmas letter published in my local paper (my 89th), I'm usually ultra-political....my 90th piece a few days ago was a commentary on our primary/electoral process. I have shortened it here, and include all apologies to my atheist friends.

When considering the state of life on this planet, it is easy to see that humanity has a long way to go before Christ would be proud of our progress. As it stands now, wars and hostilities run rampant, we are polluting the air we breathe and the water we drink, and racism & religious prejudice still have a very strong foothold in many parts of the world.
When one accepts the concept of an afterlife, or continuous consciousness, it becomes clearer how truly important the Teachings of Christ still are. He wanted us to love one another, love God, taught karma (cause and effect), tolerance and forgiveness, and to serve our brothers and sisters here on Earth.
Jesus knew more about us than we know about ourselves. When He told us 20 centuries ago, "Greater things than I do ye shall also do" (John 14:12) He was expressing the Potential within us that we have yet to realize. Every scientific consensus of the day tells us that we only use 15% of our brain. Think of our untapped potential.
Christ taught that if we have the faith of a grain of mustard seed, we can move mountains (Matthew 17:20). Consider prayer and the real effects it can have in this world. It is a mental exercise, a discipline in focus.
We should take Him up on His Promise and find time each day to clear and focus our mind in prayer; for our families, our friends, our health, expressing thanks, and anything else non-selfish.
Let us all join in prayer for a better world. If nothing else, it couldn't hurt.....

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: It couldn't hurt-- a brief comment Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: It couldn't hurt? Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: It couldn't hurt? Posted by: dmaciewski
» RE: It couldn't hurt? Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: It couldn't hurt? Not after we die. Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: It couldn't hurt Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: It couldn't hurt Posted by: jroth420
» RE: It couldn't hurt? Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» I Write to God Once a Year Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: It couldn't hurt Posted by: Bibsi
» Very interesting Posted by: vox persona
» Yes. It can. Posted by: Tatarize
» RE: It couldn't hurt Posted by: Bibsi
the weird world of medieval prayer
Posted by: Richard House on Jan 11, 2008 1:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How presumptuous, selfish, and idiotic it is to pray. The Creator has a plan, so why be arrogant as well when you think you can change His Plan to your stupid little plan?

Besides why do so many Westerners beleive the Christian God is the only game in town? Arrogant.

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» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: the weird world of medieval prayer Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
So, faith-based medicine...
Posted by: seenaymah on Jan 11, 2008 2:54 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...doesn't work any better than faith-based sex education.

Quelle surprise.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Christian prayer is a form of denial
Posted by: Blink on Jan 11, 2008 3:33 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As Alternet regularly points out, Christianity poses the biggest threat to our freedoms and way of life of any of the major religions. In contrast, Islam and Islamic praying (five times daily while protrate on a prayer rug facing Mecca) is non-threatening. Christians would be well advised to convert to Islam and pray in this fashion. Just imagine if all of the existing Christians in America suddenly converted to Islam and began praying in Muslim fashion and living according to the tenets of Islam! What a better country this would be.

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» RE: Buddhism hasn't started a war... Posted by: ptoddchesser
» RE: Christian prayer is a form of denial Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» Smarmy double standard Posted by: defrag
» Tenets of Islam?! Posted by: snideelf
» RE: Tenets of Islam?! Posted by: Bibsi
» RE:RE: Tenets of Islam?! Posted by: snideelf
» RE: Tenets of Islam?! Posted by: Bibsi
» I am not a Muslim, but... Posted by: Blink
Praying for Health
Posted by: Pau on Jan 11, 2008 4:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
No wonder the U.S. comes out last in succesful care of preventable deaths. Too worried about praying and nothing about social medicine. Praying is free, social medicine costs money.

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» RE: Praying for Health Posted by: jillipooh
» RE: Praying for Health Posted by: Bibsi
Ludicrous
Posted by: PROFPETE on Jan 11, 2008 4:16 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The entire concept is ludicrous. Measuring prayer is nonsense, not because I do not believe in God but because the studies overlooked the most important prayer factor-the reason why Jesus, Honi The Circle Maker, Appolonius of Tyre, Padre Pio and others were successful when others were not, in performing miracles, is the quality of the connection to God of the person doing the praying. Having self-appointed prophets pray is like allowing self-appointed baseball player pray and play in MLB games. They would not even see the pitches. Commercializing prayer, as organized religions do is further nonsense.
However the concept of the Tachyonic efficacy of prayer traveling forth and back via the quantum is MY THEORY of some 45 years and is the route of prophecy and anyone who has read my columns with an open mind has written about my off-the-wall against the grain prophecies which have never failed. Google me and my writing and see for yourself, the dates of the writings and of the occurrences following are clearly visible. God appoints/anoints prophets not churches or medical study groups.

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» RE: Ludicrous Posted by: lkagy
» RE: Ludicrous, ludricous! Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: Ludicrous Posted by: rhinojos
» RE: Ludicrous Posted by: Bibsi
What a joke
Posted by: cordas on Jan 11, 2008 4:24 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Surely if god didn't want people to get ill (s)he could stop it before it ever happens... The idea that praying for someone might heal them and might not depending on ??? is just insulting and childish.

I would actually go a bit further in saying that I actualy find the idea offensive, why didn't god answer the prays said for my uncle who died of brain cancer... he was a loving father and devoutely religious person. Why where other peoples prays answered and not his... Why even bother striking him down with cancer in the 1st place...

All in all its just superstious claptrap like the rest of the religion stuff.

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» RE: What a joke Posted by: Xynyx
» RE: What a joke Posted by: jroth420
» RE: What a joke Posted by: Vik
» RE: What a joke Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: What a joke Posted by: cordas
» RE: What a joke Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: What a joke Posted by: Bibsi
Dumb comments
Posted by: PJT on Jan 11, 2008 4:27 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most of the comments except that of the 89 year old person are typically narrow minded and plain dumb. Look, we surely can make ourselves sick worring. Why not accept that we might be able to reverse some symptoms by praying... or meditating, or thinking pure thoughts, or warm healing light, or whatever? Why is it selfish (to cite a particularly offensive comment by Fat Man) to pray for oneself? And just because we don't understand something, doesn't mean it might not be true. You all are beginning to sound like a bunch of silly creationists. In a thousand years, if we survive (doubtful at best) they will laugh at our ideas about "science".

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» RE: Dumb comments Posted by: g
» RE: Dumb comments Posted by: jroth420
» Less is more Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Dumb comments Posted by: Bibsi
Prayer or Arrogance?
Posted by: Suzen on Jan 11, 2008 5:04 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In my experience, prayer is a subtle thing. It does not adhere to linear measurement or fit into the expectations of present day concepts of "Healing". The studies done with expectation of certain results will not work at all. Such a study is not about prayer, but about arrogance. Only studies done with true curiosity and open mindedness will work.

Healing prayer takes place on many levels. Sometimes it doesn't appear to do much on the physical, but help can come through lots of other ways - ie. someone gets an idea which helps the patient - feelings settle and suffering is relieved - members of families suddenly break through old patterns and gain understanding as they attend an ill family member - there is a smooth passing with no fear --- anything can happen. To just look at prayer with hands on hips and expectations is to miss the point entirely. As far as I know, the Creator doesn't need to prove itself to us. We need to shut up and observe the whole picture with an eye to seeing something subtle.

I, personally, am really tired of people standing around assuming that if something doesn't fit into their picture of how things should be, it doesn't exist. What ever happened to curiosity and a 'state of wonder'? That is where prayer exists.

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» RE: Prayer or Arrogance? IGNORANCE Posted by: scottyrocks
» RE: Prayer or Arrogance? Posted by: factbased
» RE: Prayer or Arrogance? Posted by: Iaela
Spooky action at a distance?
Posted by: ritadona69 on Jan 11, 2008 5:13 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We all walk into rooms every day where we can feel the energy of what's going on even if nobody speaks. When we enter into that space, that energy affects us. I don't see it as that great a leap to think that positive energy deliberately directed towards me would have an impact. We are all energy at our core.

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Excellent Balanced Summary
Posted by: drricklippin on Jan 11, 2008 5:36 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Stan Cox provides an excellent jumping off point on this article for serious students of this issue.THANKS

Here is my take:

-Biomedical research has been dominated by the excesses of biology for at least the past 100 years despite the reality that all living things, including the human body, are ALSO energy systems. That is not mystical.Rather that is measurable. Biomedicine needs to re-embrace physics as a partner with biology. This could be the big story of biomedicine in the 21st century recognizing that old paradigms die hard- usualy "by funeral".

-Read the works of Drs. Larry Dossey and Gary Schwartz(google them)

-Read the research behind HeartMath technology(google)

The essence of science is open-mindedness but people like Drs. Richard Sloan and Bruce Flamm seemed to have forgotten that.

LIKE MOST SCIENCE THIS STORY IS NOT OVER. And with any luck may never well be.

Dr. Rick Lippin
Southampton, Pa
http://medicalcrises.blogspot.com

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» RE: xcellent Balanced Summary Posted by: jroth420
» RE: xcellent Balanced Summary Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: xcellent Balanced Summary Posted by: drricklippin
wrabbit
Posted by: shd1230 on Jan 11, 2008 6:10 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First, there is no way to tell if prayer makes any difference; second; if it does, then by all means pray. As someone used to say-" It can't hurt--it might help." But believers might also consider how many prayed-for patients died just like everybody else; how many prayers go unanswered.

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» RE: wrabbit Posted by: anchoorite
» RE: wrabbit Posted by: factbased
» RE: wrabbit Posted by: jroth420
» RE: wrabbit Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
don't believe, know
Posted by: solrev on Jan 11, 2008 6:30 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jesus taught us specifically not to pray like the Jews or Muslims. Jesus taught us a simple little prayer that sums up the Christian belief and how we are supposed to act. Christian prayer has become an over used ritual in most Christian denominations. Jesus even warned us not to let our rituals overcome our faith. Like Jesus said, God knows our needs before we ask. Praying can be viewed as a demonstration of a lack of faith. However, if it makes you feel good do it.

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» RE: don't believe, know Posted by: counterpoint
» RE: don't believe, know Posted by: plantsareneat
» RE: don't believe, know IGNORANCE Posted by: scottyrocks
» RE: don't believe, know IGNORANCE Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: don't believe, know IGNORANCE Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: don't believe, know Posted by: rhinojos
» RE: don't believe, know Posted by: Bibsi
porkchop the common
Posted by: ptoddchesser on Jan 11, 2008 6:31 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't believe that money would have ever been put towards any studies such as the ones mentioned in this article.
I know opinions are like assholes,everyone has one.This is mine.I'm pretty sure that once man was able to formulate any kind of thought other than,
"What am I going to eat?".
His mind turned to,
"Where the hell did I come from?".
In this, God was created and in turn he created all things.For his simple mind this was the only explanation. I find it odd that today people still cling to this belief of a "God" that nurtures his "children" and cloaks the universe in his infinite wisdom.
The Bible is merely a great story book with some pretty wise lessons for those that want to learn them.But it was written by men.It was packaged by men(who also felt the need to exclude any books that related the equality of women).It was guarded by men who for so long kept it secret and doled it out as they saw fit.
I don't want to step on any toes but I believe religion is for the weak minded.Those people that need just another coping method.It's sad though,that these same people feel the need to spread their "gospel" around the world and offer false hope to those just gullible enough to receive it.

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» God and deeper thought! Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: God and deeper thought! Posted by: ptoddchesser
» RE: porkchop the common Posted by: Bibsi
Really more tolerant?
Posted by: warriornation on Jan 11, 2008 6:36 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Liberals always claim to be more tolerant than conservatives. I saw a lot of liberal opinions that want to discredit the article. Just because an article came out that is for once not against the existence of God, doesn't mean everybody has to start to discredit prayer. BTW, I'm not a conservative, I'm a populist.

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» RE: eally more tolerant? Posted by: anchoorite
» RE: eally more tolerant? Posted by: warriornation
» RE: eally more tolerant? Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: eally more tolerant? Posted by: Bibsi
how it "works": counting the hits, ignoring the misses. Better: give real help & support!
Posted by: counterpoint on Jan 11, 2008 6:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Counting the hits and ignoring the misses is what it comes down to.
As an atheist who is a member of a unitarian church because of the great community I can tell you what works much better than voodoo/prayer: when church members are sick, are grieving, have big problems, or great joys such as the birth of a child we organize to call the person, send cards, we visit and bring meals, we arrange rides, we talk about issues, etc. It deepens connections, it really helps because we actually do something. "Praying" by itself (especially if it's unannounced) has no effect.
So please: do something perceptible and effective instead (or if you must cling to superstitious modes: in addition).

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A Shared Concept
Posted by: craigandrew on Jan 11, 2008 6:47 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our religions have God decide if we live or die,.. evolution has Nature making the decision. Either way, it is not for us to decide who is the most fit for survival.

In a thousand years we will know who was best suited for the environment today. Until then, it is every person for themselves... and you better believe in whatever it is you do 100%.

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» RE: A Shared Concept Posted by: Bibsi
why the fundies hate science
Posted by: zooeyhall on Jan 11, 2008 6:50 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The purpose of science is to look at the universe rationally and to determine cause and effect. One of the fundamental tenets of science is that things cannot just "come out of nowhere" that there has to be cause and effect.

I recently read a book on the horrors of the witchcraft persecution in 17th century Europe. The author concluded that the revolutionary idea of cause and effect propounded by such scientists as Issac Newton and Rene Descartes was instrumental in ending the mania.

Carl Sagan called science "a candle in the darkness". Thank god we have it.

I have talked to several fundies about the scientific studies of prayer mentioned in the article. They immediately get defensive and almost always fall back on saying: "well, the people in the study didn't BELIEVE enough!" To which I answer: "ok, so how do you measure 'belief'? Show me a way to measure it in statistics and a rational reproduceable manner".

Needless to say, I am not too popular with the fundies in my town.

PS--I am a farmer in Nebraska.

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» RE: why the fundies hate science Posted by: plantsareneat
» RE: why the fundies hate science Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» used weather Posted by: zooeyhall
» RE: used weather Posted by: Xynyx
"I believe"
Posted by: skydog on Jan 11, 2008 6:55 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hey, this is no surprise.

As we all struggle to survive under the boot heel of unfettered laissez-faire capitalism, with a for-profit health care industry, a military-industrial-media complex, and an oil industry run amok, all converging to bleed us dry, we're all wound tighter than a clock spring.

Physiologically, reducing stress has positive helath benefits. So any salve to soothe jangled nerves is going to be helpful. Some need chemicals to medicate, some do it on pure imagination alone.

Surrendering one's self to faith removes all burden of having to be face reality as it is. It's a publicly-endorsed escape from rationality. It's comforting to tell one's self that all this impending misery will be but a comma in the book of eternity (to paraphrase an enduring hero of some of faith's most irrational practitioners.)

What pisses me off is the self-righteous who proclaim that supplicating one's self before an invisible patriarch like a slope-foreheaded primitive hominid is acceptable, but smoking a little ganga isn't.

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» RE: "I believe" Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: "I believe" Posted by: skydog
» RE: "I believe" Posted by: Bibsi
» RE: "I believe" Posted by: oldumbo
» RE: "I believe" Posted by: Xynyx
rawebb
Posted by: Roger64 on Jan 11, 2008 7:00 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am a psychologist and decent statistician. I have not reviewed many of the studies of the medical effects of prayer, but did see reports on a couple. What I detected was dependent variable shopping. That is, the researchers collected a lot of outcome variables and then talked about the ones that showed improvement. You expect some variables to change by chance, and those were the ones that got reported. Bad study design. I doubt this area will repay more work than I have invested.

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rawebb revisited
Posted by: dkm on Jan 11, 2008 7:27 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The conclusion that prayer aids by looking at a plethora of relationships and then saying that fewer than 5% of them show positive correlations has been observed in at least one major study that supposedly shows that prayer works. In that study there were numerous correlations between prayer and health response calculated, but only those few that showed a positive correlation were discussed. The vast majority that showed no correlation or a negative correlation were ignored. Given that the measure of statistical significance is 95% certainty that the results are not due to chance, that means that in 100 comparisons that show statistical significance at the P

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placebo effect
Posted by: Forrest on Jan 11, 2008 7:35 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and the immune system. that's why humans invented religion(s) in the first place.

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» RE: placebo effect Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
The God of Truth!
Posted by: garry minor on Jan 11, 2008 7:31 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Someday soon when people accept the God of Truth, the God that spoke the Word "kaneh bosm", and we use the Tree of Life for food, fuel, shelter, medicine, pleasure, spirituality, and unity will our prayers be answered. The curse will be removed.
Kaneh bosm destroy's tumors, promotes the growth of brain cells, prevents Alzheimers, and is being used to treat MS, autism, epilepsy, migraine, arthritis, diabetes, depression, obesity, chronic pain, nausea, alcoholism, drug addiction, cystic fibrosis, asthma, emphysema, herpes, skin conditions, Parkinsons, Huntingtons, Tourettes, Crohns disease and more. We have no idea all the benefits of this resource because our FDA refuses to allow testing here in the Land of the Free.
Not only that but kaneh bosm can produce all of our paper, plastics, paints, varnishes, textiles, lubricants, fuel, plywood, structural components, insulation, livestock feed, health foods, cosmetics and more, eco friendly. In 1938 we knew of over 25,000 uses for it, who knows what we can do with modern technology. It grows without fertilizers, herbicides, or pesticides to foul the soil and water, in soil and conditions most crops won't grow, from the Equator to the Arctic circle. It will create millions of Earth friendly jobs, begin a redistribution of wealth, and create social harmony. It exposes the lie!
Kaneh bosm is cannabis, mistranslated from the original Hebrew as calamus by the Greeks in Exodus 30:23, Song of Songs 4:14, Isaiah 43:24, Jeremiah 6:20, and Ezekiel 27:19.
For those with eyes to see, If you know the Truth the Truth will set you free!
Kanaba, kaneh bosm, cannabis, haoma, hemp, taima, etc...........

Garry Minor
Columbus Cannabis Ministry, Hawaii Cannabis Ministry
Columbus Indiana

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» RE: The God of Truth! Posted by: Bibsi
podcast critiquing prayer & religion health studies
Posted by: counterpoint on Jan 11, 2008 8:14 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]