COMMENTS: 157
Obama Can Win; If He Does, Let's Hope His Sunny Bipartisan Talk Is Just Rhetoric
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That's a real possibility -- Obama's sitting in a very strong spot going into New Hampshire. It looks like he's had an impressive "bounce" coming out of Iowa -- polls taken before the caucus still had Clinton with a lead in New Hampshire, but several polls conducted afterwards have Obama up by an average of seven points over Clinton, with Edwards trailing by 18.
What's more, Clinton and Edwards have little choice but to play into the Obama narrative. She's attacked from the right, and Edwards, who has criticized Obama from the left, now talks about being in a "conviction alliance" with Obama (he's trying to kill off Hillary and make it a two-person race), and those approaches allow Obama to sit back, talk about hope and change and look like the new kind of "post-partisan" candidate he claims to be, regardless of whether that claim is grounded in fact.
According to the conventional wisdom, if Obama does end up getting the nomination, his ethnicity and "exotic" middle name would be a major hurdle to winning in November. But that narrative only looks at one side of the coin.
There's been a relentless focus on the question of race. Is America ready? Would the South go for a (half) African American with a name that rhymes with "Osama"? Will people, fearful of being seen as a racist, tell pollsters they'd vote for a man of color and then go against him once they get into the confines of the voting booth? Will the Big Lie that he's a Muslim get e-mailed around to enough "low-information" voters that a whole gaggle of people freak out, get off the couch and head to the polls to beat him?
Yes to all of that -- one should never underestimate the role of race in American politics. But the analysis misses a larger dynamic, which is that anybody the Dems nominate will be Swift-Boated mercilessly, their strong points turned into weaknesses and their humanity reduced to angry caricatures. Al Gore became a liar, John Kerry, a decorated war hero, became a wimp and the next nominee will be similarly transformed into a hideous reflection of him- or herself. As Paul Waldman of MediaMatters put it, "If the Democrats were to dig up the corpse of George Patton and run him in an election, the Republicans would say he was soft on defense and hated America."
In building a base of voters who don't like partisan politics and who may be more likely to dismiss those attacks as being just more of the same Washington "bickering," Obama may end up being, to a degree, insulated from those kind of assaults in a way other, more "traditional" Democratic candidates aren't.
The focus on race also looks at just one side of the ledger -- at an unbalanced equation. Getting far less attention is that Obama has a story, a narrative, that has the potential to bring a whole group of people who haven't been politically engaged in the past into the political world for the first time.
The reason that side is getting short shrift is simple: the political discourse in America is shaped by white, middle aged male pundits who live in the burbs and tend to think of the American "voter" as a white, middle-aged white guy from the burbs. But America is chock-a-block with minorities and women and urbanites and liberals and young people, and most of those groups have voted at historically low levels because they never saw a national candidate who looked anything like them or who had shared their experiences in any meaningful way.
That's not to say that we won't be treated to a bevy of ugly messages if Obama ends up heading the ticket -- some coded messages, some explicit -- designed to appeal to America's uglier, racist side. We certainly will (and already have in the primaries). And if Obama were to become the nominee, he would almost certainly lose in deeply "red" states; in the Bible Belt. But those states aren't in play for Democrats anyway. In his book Whistling past Dixie, political scientist Tom Schaller showed that Democrats don't need those states to win nationally. The book caused a lot of controversy over the question of whether Dems should write off the deep South in the near term, but nobody could shake Schaller's numbers and argue that they couldn't. It's the "purple" states that matter in a national race, and, if Obama's win in Iowa was any indication, he has the potential to dominate in those races.
In Iowa, he blew away the field among voters who identified themselves as independents. He beat Clinton among unmarried voters, 43-24; with first-time caucus-goers, 41-29; among young people aged 17-29 he slaughtered his opponents, with four times Edwards' second place support. He beat Edwards among voters who prioritized the ability to "bring about change" by 51-20.
And I think it's difficult for white people, this author included, to understand just what his candidacy symbolizes for people of color. For a year we heard that the African American community was divided over whether he was "black enough" for them to fully embrace as one of their own. In the wake of Iowa, at least according to anecdotal evidence, black and brown America were profoundly moved to see Obama, this powerful African American orator, winning over cornfed Iowa.
It's impossible to predict how that might play out come November. But any analysis that just looks at the Democratic and independent crackers who'll bail on a black man with a funny name and doesn't factor in the millions that might be inspired by his iconic candidacy (not to mention his personal charisma) underestimates Obama's potential.
Last week, Obama blew up a long-standing piece of conventional wisdom about the youth vote. His campaign had been saying for months that he'd excite boatloads of young people whose youthful energy would propel him to a decisive win. For decades, that's been the desperate cry of a campaign that had no shot -- those promises have been made many times, and on every occasion young people's "excitement" didn't translate into young people's votes. But something different happened this time. According to Young Voter PAC, a group that encourages young people to get politically engaged, Iowa's "youth turnout rate rose to 13% in 2008 compared to 4% in 2004 and 3% in 2000." 22 percent of Democratic participants were young people, up from 17 percent in 2004. Entrance polls showed that the lion's share were there for Barack Obama -- while Hillary got twice Obama's support among the over-65, he trounced her, 5 to 1, among those under the age of 30.
The youth vote, thanks in part to Bush's ruinous presidency, has grown dramatically in each of the last three elections. But there's still a lot of potential in that demographic -- in 2004, even after an enormous 11-point increase over 2000, less than half of young voters aged 18-24 bothered to go to the polls -- the lowest turn-out for any age group.
Fewer than half of Latino voters voted in 2004 and despite the fact that 3 million more blacks came out in 2004 than in the previous cycle, they still trailed the participation rate for whites, 67-60. What happens if 65 or 70 percent of those voters turn out in 2008 (long lines in GOP states be damned)?
Not only did he pull off an impressive win in lilly-white rural Iowa, but he won all but one income bracket, and, more impressively, he won the women's vote, 35-30, despite a mad dash for the ladies by the Clinton campaign (several media reports claimed that older women went for Clinton while younger women favored Obama). He won the liberal and the moderate vote; the urban and suburban vote and tied Clinton for the union vote, which had been expected to go for Edwards.
As Dan Balz wrote in the Washington Post, those results bode well for Obama in New Hampshire:
Compare the states of Iowa and New Hampshire and the landscape looks far less favorable for Clinton. The reality is, this is the state that always set up best for Obama, even when he was struggling here. The demographics and political culture lean more in the direction of Obama than toward Clinton…
In virtually every demographic category where Obama found his greatest strength in Iowa, New Hampshire's electorate has at least as many or more of those voters, based on a comparison of the entrance polls from Thursday's caucuses in Iowa and from the 2004 Democratic primary in Hampshire.In a country with an abundance of tuned-out voters, Obama -- and, to a degree, Edwards -- both understand the importance of reaching out to voters on an emotional, "gut" level. The Clinton campaign, now running on the idea that she'd be ready to "govern from day one," is reminiscent of both the Kerry and Gore campaigns in that she's offering a laundry list of policy proposals to restore America's "greatness." Just as the 2004 campaign became a contest between John Kerry's wonky 123-point plan for fixing everything under the sun and Bush's warning that scary brown people would kill us all if he didn't win, Obama's answering Clinton's campaign with an appeal to the heart rather than the head.
I should point out that only 300,000 Americans have spoken, and the race is not over. I don't want to add to any sense of "inevitability" that might be building out there. The Clinton campaign is familiar with New Hampshire, thinks it will do well beyond the Granite State, still leads in the national polls (which were conducted before Iowa) and certainly has a chance to turn it around. Her campaign's got the resources, and it's staffed with old pros who know the ins and outs of running a winning campaign. Although the odds are much longer than they were a week ago, John Edwards, Iowa's second-place finisher with the full-throated populist message, can't be counted out entirely either. He did extremely well in Saturday's debate, and anything can happen, especially as the media narrative shifts from Clinton's "inevitability" to voters' hunger for a "reform candidate." The race is fluid.
Bringing a knife to a gunfight
But if Obama were to win the nomination, those desperate to see real change should hope that Barack Obama's touchy-feely message of hope and healing is nothing more than snappy campaign rhetoric.
Obama's run as the candidate of "change" -- a nebulous slogan with huge appeal given the depth of the hole that Bush has dug over the last seven years. According to his campaign's narrative, Obama would not only change Washington, but he'd do it by bridging the gap between the Right and Left, healing long-festering wounds, bringing a polarized electorate together and uniting the country. In New Hampshire on Friday, Obama made the pitch in what's become a stock applause line in his campaign, saying in commanding style that Americans "can come together and say, 'we are one nation, we are one people and it is time for us to bring about change!'" The crowd went crazy.
Yet the message is as hopelessly naïve in the real world of American politics as it is appealing on the stump, and for a simple reason: it assumes that the GOP -- dominated as it is by "movement conservatives" in the Delay-Rove mold -- and it's corporate backers are interested in engaging in a thoughtful debate over how to make America a better country. If that were the case, then bridging the divide through calm words and negotiation would certainly be better by leaps and bounds than the ugly brand of politics we have today.
But that's not the case. John Edwards' own stock response to Obama's narrative seems quite accurate:
I don't believe you can sit around a table with the drug companies, the insurance companies or the oil corporations, negotiate with them - and then hope they'll just voluntarily give their power away. You can't nice them to death - it doesn't work.The Republican establishment is fully aware of the fact that they can't win on any substantial issue of public policy on the merits of their arguments alone. There is no broad constituency in America for showering the top 1 percent with tax breaks, handing huge subsidies to energy firms and giant agribusinesses and pharmaceutical firms, starting wars of choice, cutting social services or privatizing broad swaths of the public sector.
So they emphasize social issues and conjure up fear of foreign bogey-men in order to remain relevant. And they marginalize and demonize their opponents, which has been a central thrust of conservative messaging since the days of Spiro Agnew and Joe McCarthy. In logic, it's known as "poisoning the well" -- making one's interlocutor out to be such a heinous beast that anything he or she says will be perceived, without examination, as an assault on our core values.
At heart, there's a fundamental divide between Obama's post-partisan rhetoric, and the hunger among many progressives for a fighter who will stand up to the Right-wing noise machine and effectively slug it out with the GOP. That goes a long way to explaining why Obama, despite an almost perfect biography and the caché of being a Beltway outsider at a time when the insiders are so widely loathed, never seemed to catch on with the left "blogosphere" the way one would have expected him to.
But if Iowa showed anything, it's that it's not wise to underestimate Obama's approach. As every political observer knows, the themes a politician uses on the campaign trail often don't match his or her style of governance once elected. That's rarely considered a good thing, but in this case, people seeking real change should hope that Obama's feel-good language is just campaign spin.
That's because progressives' best hope with Barack Obama would be that he use his message of "hope" and reconciliation to bring millions of new voters into the process for the first time, gather an enormous amount of political capital, and then turn around, take off the gloves and shove that mandate right down the GOP's throat.
Because if it is Obama in the end, there will be a real opportunity for him to lead the kind of political realignment that this country last saw during the "Reagan Revolution" in 1980. Obscured by the focus on how the race factor will play out, the simple fact is that a contest between Obama and any of the likely GOP nominees is going to present a stark contrast -- a visible manifestation of the "two Americas" theme-- and one that would serve Obama very well.
Because if it comes down to Obama, with his young, optimistic and energized followers, against a grumpy old McCain running on his support of the war, or Huckabee, the affable cleric surrounded by dour looking middle-aged evangelicals (and Chuck Norris), or Giuliani, who's mean as a snake and parodies himself every time he answers a healthcare question by invoking 9/11, or a stuffed shirt like Mitt Romney -- all (except Huckabee) angry, all hoping to scare voters into supporting them -- if that were the choice, then Barack Obama's America might just win in a landslide.
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Posted by: pdxstudent on Jan 7, 2008 12:25 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"But if Iowa showed anything, it's that it's not wise to underestimate Obama's approach. As every political observer knows, the themes a politician uses on the campaign trail often don't match his or her style of governance once elected. That's rarely considered a good thing, but in this case, people seeking real change should hope that Obama's feel-good language is just campaign spin."
You introduce a level on which to consider their representative, and it's a crucial first step. People need to start asking themselves not "can he win," but "if he wins, can we trust him to do what we want?" I still think this is a pathetic and painful way to make political decisions, to say nothing of how one lives their life, but it's better than where we started. The natural next and final level is getting most of the voters to by-pass the first two stages to just asking "Will s/he do what we want?"
I know you can't do it in every article, but some serious consideration not just of how bad the GOP has been and still is, but what the Democrats' complicity in otherwise GOP agendas means. True Democrats aren't fighting just the GOP and neoconservatism, but their own Party and its trend towards neoliberalism.
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» RE: Thank You
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: Obama takes Neocon money, Edwards should WIN!!!!
Posted by: MeridaLady
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Posted by: g50 on Jan 7, 2008 1:26 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The right wants the left to fight. That is because when they come to the fight, the left is charged up, pissed off, passionate, etc. The right, which understands how acting calm & self-assured makes people trust you, depends upon the comparison of the sober righty vs. the passionate lefty foaming at the mouth about how much of a jerk is the righty.
Basically, the right says things which are unreasonable in a reasonable way, while the left - and I am guilty as charged - says reasonable things in an unreasonable way. Think of how many times you have been frustrated by some block-headed conservative, only to begin talking about imperialism or genocide or patriarchy, etc. While what you say may be true, a lot of people see or hear such rhetoric and think "that is a crazy person".
No, this is wrong. We don't need a fighter. If we have a fighter, their politicians will be able to unify as an effective opposition because the lines between the parties will be clearly marked.
Someone who is a conciliator & who reaches out to all will put the Republicans in an extremely difficult position. They will be disorganized and frequently coopted because they will be deprived of their main weapon - the contrast between trustworthy normal person & rabid leftist.
You don't change the power of this caricature of "radical leftist" by fighting - you change it by making a new caricature, that of "reasonable leftist".
I know there is a lot of ambiguity in these ideas, and the notion of a fighter is very popular here. But we can create new & better patterns.
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» RE: No
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: No
Posted by: skydog
» Don't compromise
Posted by: bthespoon
» WTF!!!
Posted by: sausage
» RE: No
Posted by: wonkywriter
» RE: No
Posted by: greenthumb
» What no one seems to be recognizing here is that
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: No
Posted by: tap17x
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Posted by: Tom Degan on Jan 7, 2008 2:08 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Making History in Iowa
Cheers!
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
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» RE: For more on that subject....
Posted by: patfr
» Are we ready for a black president? It depends.
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Are we ready for a black president? It depends.
Posted by: bthespoon
» RE: Are we ready for a black president? It depends.
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Are we ready for a black president? It depends.
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Great article ~ "Making History....."
Posted by: Sissy
» RE: Great article ~ "Making History....."
Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: For more on that subject.... **SORRY, NOT INTERESTED**
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: For more on that subject.... **SORRY, NOT INTERESTED**
Posted by: Tom Degan
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Posted by: HeKnew on Jan 7, 2008 3:11 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: HeKnew on Jan 7, 2008 3:11 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Suzon on Jan 7, 2008 3:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As I understand it, in 2002 Congress changed the bankruptcy laws, taking away the protection that once existed for home owners. Good for banks, bad for people. I believe that both Edwards and Clinton voted for it. Edwards can and should admit he was as wrong on that as on Iraq.
Banks and other corporations have different kinds of clout in the US and the UK. In the US, it's the donations to candidates. In the UK, it's the Queen's ministers doing whatever the Queen's supporters want. Over the last 30 years, the monarchy has corrupted the democracy. CEOs have been stuffing their pockets and corporations have engaged in shameful even criminal activities (Blackwater anyone?).
Legislation leaving American home owners without protection once previously enjoyed should be repudiated on the grounds that no respectable government should make life less secure--less just--for its citizens.
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» RE: the sound of silence and an opportunity ignored by the top contenders
Posted by: Tom Degan
» Now lenders plan to use health insurance in credit scores
Posted by: bthespoon
» Really?
Posted by: bookie
» Good, then we can get back to health care the way it was suppose....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: the sound of silence and an opportunity ignored by the top contenders
Posted by: carbon-based
» You either miss the entire point, or your totally ignorant of the....
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: KAEL on Jan 7, 2008 3:46 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Some things to ponder
Posted by: Sissy
» Oh, don't worry, he has 6, count them, 6 CFR members on his...
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: davescott on Jan 7, 2008 4:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: AMEN!
Posted by: Sissy
» There's a much better way......
Posted by: xvictor
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Posted by: Davidco on Jan 7, 2008 4:22 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The establishment would love us to believe that election of a black or a woman represents some kind of substantive change. In reality, both would spend the rest of their terms studiously avoiding the interests of blacks and women respectively to show their 'post partisan' impartiality.
Perhaps a landslide victory would free some "inner" Obama who was lost decades ago. For the moment, he cannot even make false promises about what this country really needs.
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Posted by: nochicagoboys on Jan 7, 2008 4:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"That's because progressives' best hope with Barack Obama would be that he use his message of 'hope' and reconciliation to bring millions of new voters into the process for the first time, gather an enormous amount of political capital, and then turn around, take off the gloves and shove that mandate right down the GOP's throat."
If, as the author writes, this is the ultimate strategy of the Obama drive for the presidency, I think it's feasible. If it's not, and he's just pandering to human emotion in order to garner votes, I'm afraid we're in for more of the same. As John Edwards said, and Mr. Holland cited in his excellent article, "I don't believe you can sit around a table with the drug companies, the insurance companies or the oil corporations, negotiate with them - and then hope they'll just voluntarily give their power away. You can't nice them to death - it doesn't work."
Well, there it is, the message of "hope", that the good Senator wants us to follow and believe. Let's "hope", if elected, a President Obama can turn hope into action -- because the moneyed elite will not bow-down to "hope". I'm sure of that.
Best of luck, to everyone, in 2008. I'm afraid we'll need more of that, than hope.
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» Dammit, vote Edwards, he will clean this mess up... he has a...
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: bthespoon on Jan 7, 2008 6:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Ever hear of paragraphs?
Posted by: cjohnson44
» Some blogs run them together anyway
Posted by: bthespoon
» No, I am grateful for what you wrote.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: The Audacity of False Hope
Posted by: liblady2008
» Let's make a little practical sense.
Posted by: Longdream
» Don't talk about the Canadian system... a young boy was turned down...
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: xvictor on Jan 7, 2008 6:06 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While change may likely be beneficial in the long run, we are looking at folks who desire immediate gratification. They want it overnight. And they don't like change with pain, bother, and fuss. But you can't have change without some pain or sweat.
Change involves pain and inconvenience and people in the country will not be comfortable in doing away established practices and habits that change will obviously affect. Such as belt-tightening, tax raising, removing excess government programs (or even doing away with some "successful" gov't programs), doing away with certain conveniences, taking this instead of that, etc.
There are folks who want to believe that an omelet can be had without breaking the eggs. Guess what? lots of eggs have to be broken to reach that omelet goal. Surprise! Surprise!
So after folks really learn what "change" entails it's likely they will not accept it. They will not accept Obama. Quite frankly, Obama himself may not really know what change is. Good-intentioned folks will return to the status quo with the concept of change existing only in their minds.
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» RE: Obama preaches "CHANGE". Do people really want it??
Posted by: NoPCZone
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Posted by: Progbiz on Jan 7, 2008 6:20 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Obama represents false hope
Posted by: bthespoon
» RE: Obama represents false hope
Posted by: magus65
» Democrats won't need 60 seats in the Senate if Obama wins
Posted by: PaulC
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Posted by: EncinoM on Jan 7, 2008 6:58 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For this country to advance we need a leader for through we may at times disagree with, we can respectfully disagree and understand he is doing what he believes is best.
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» What if honesty and justice...
Posted by: bthespoon
» We need to reach common ground
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» RE: We need to reach common ground
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: In particular it will require investigation for the criminal behavior
Posted by: Christie
» RE: In particular it will require investigation for the criminal behavior
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» RE: We do not need conflict but to reach common ground
Posted by: magus65
» RE: We do not need conflict but to reach common ground
Posted by: EncinoM
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Posted by: Kryptman40k on Jan 7, 2008 7:06 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama voted for the war in Iraq.
Obama talks about bombing Iran.
Obama voted for the US patriot act.
Obama's wife is on the board of directors for CFR.
Obama will NOT end the wars and talks about keeping our country on the offensive.
Wake up and stop supporting the "left wing" because you think they support you.
Nancy pelosi knew about the torture tapes and did nothing. Harry Reid supports abortion.
Ron Paul is the only true peace candidate and wants to cripple the military industrial complex. You have a rare chance to actually DO something to change our country with Ron Paul. No democrat will bring change like he will.
Ron Paul is the only person running for president who is not CFR!!!!
Read and learn Plz.
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» And Ron Paul will lead us straight to hell
Posted by: Ellie1
» RE: And Ron Paul will lead us straight to hell
Posted by: Kryptman40k
» RE: And Ron Paul will lead us straight to hell
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: And Ron Paul will lead us straight to hell
Posted by: Kryptman40k
» RE: And Ron Paul will lead us straight to hell
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: And Ron Paul will lead us straight to hell
Posted by: Joe
» Please don't be distracted
Posted by: bthespoon
» RE: Please don't be distracted
Posted by: Kryptman40k
» RE: Please don't be distracted
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: WAKE UP left wingers and democrats!
Posted by: skydog
» RE: WAKE UP left wingers and democrats!
Posted by: ronheri
» RE: CFR? Code of Federal Regulations
Posted by: chaoslegs
» Ron Paul is against regulation to the point he is dangerous
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: on Paul is against regulation to the point he is dangerous
Posted by: peacefullaim
» Ron Paul is not the only nonCFR cand.
Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: OP was destroyed in Ron Paul forum for being an ignorant prick.
Posted by: Hoboblue
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Posted by: anothername on Jan 7, 2008 7:21 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The National Council of state legislatures released a report in 2006 on term limits. It notes that term limits force legislatures to become aggressive from the start, instead of taking time to learn how (a cooperative) system works. In addition, the staff turns off at a higher rate, too, which reduces opportunities to build long-term relationships across the aisles. This lack of cooperation did not spring up in a vacuum or overnight.
BlogHer created a list of 12 questions that women want the candidates to answer; but the candidates are ignoring this female version of the DailyKos.
Barack Obama would never have been asked to run for office if Hillary Clinton had not had the backing of the old Democratic Leadership Council. If the anti-Clinton group ran just another white man, Clinton would have won. Obama is being used as much as he is using people. Race has to be mentioned just because we have not had a president other than white men, but the vast majority of people are more interested in the Ivy League, smooth talking, tall organizer.
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» With Barak and Hillary in the Senate
Posted by: bthespoon
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Posted by: brucerise on Jan 7, 2008 7:38 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.findbilover.com
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» Edwards could improve on this issue
Posted by: bthespoon
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Posted by: realist on Jan 7, 2008 7:47 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That sounds eerily like George W. Bush's agenda in 2000. Look where it got us. Now you want progressives to do the same thing? Gee, I can't imagine why the American people are so cynical.
It just proves my point that the extremes on both ends of the spectrum have both gone so far around the bend that they're meeting each other on the other side. That's how we got neo-cons - conservatives who justify the use of big government powers to invade Iraq and take away our civil rights.
Your prescription would relegate Obama to the status of "useful idiot." That's how the Dems tried to treat Bill Clinton when he first took office; they promptly lost both houses of Congress, and left Clinton to fend for himself. The same thing eventually happened with Bush. Obama should take note.
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Posted by: ReallyBearish on Jan 7, 2008 7:49 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We're getting a youth vote (that normally doesn't vote) because of economic threats. This is going to drown out the single social issue voters. The Republicans can try to hang on to that sliver as if it will save them. It won't.
Swift Boat away. It will fail. The real solution to the Right's problem is to rig the election to stop a Dem victory. They could do that with a 3rd party candidate, or they could just cancel the elections all together. I'd consider that more likely.
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» More likely they will try to assassinate Obama
Posted by: PaulC
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Posted by: cjohnson44 on Jan 7, 2008 8:09 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This jerk will keep riding the race card to go as far as he can.
Let's get a REAL fighter and FDR Democrat in there - let's get JOHN EDWARDS.
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» RE: Obama is a joke.
Posted by: tclaverdure
» RE: Obama is a joke.
Posted by: dkeithley
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Posted by: MartyF7 on Jan 7, 2008 8:16 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Is that the problem now?
Posted by: anothername
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Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle on Jan 7, 2008 8:33 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama won over legislators to bring change to Illinois
By CHARLES PETERS, The Washington Post
January 07. 2008 12:25AM
People who complain that Barack Obama lacks experience must be unaware of his legislative achievements. One reason these accomplishments are unfamiliar is that the news media have not devoted enough attention to Obama's bills and the effort required to pass them, ignoring impressive, hard evidence of his character and ability.
Since most of Obama's legislation was enacted in Illinois, most of the evidence is found there - and it has been largely ignored by the media in a kind of Washington snobbery that assumes state legislatures are not to be taken seriously.... [Full column at the link.]
That said, I'm voting for Kucinich. He's a fighter, too.
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» I live in Illinois
Posted by: bthespoon
» Let's get him elected then to Majority Leader.
Posted by: Sojourner
» Anything that keeps him in the Senate
Posted by: bthespoon
» RE: Let's get him elected then to Majority Leader.
Posted by: EncinoM
» Kucinich is the REAL fighter
Posted by: profedwards
» I'm still standing with kucinich
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Kucinich is the REAL fighter
Posted by: Habaro
Comments are closed-
Posted by: jwpa13 on Jan 7, 2008 9:24 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Which “Top 3” Dem has indicated he/she will roll back these BAD “changes?”
“CHANGE” is a bogus word Unless it is followed by such words as ; …“in our lobbying and campaign finance laws to keep big money from dominating our elected officials” ; …“to lower taxes on the middle class”; …“to bring our troops home from Iraq, Afghanistan, most of and the world to bring an end American imperialism”; (and most importantly) …“to repeal NAFTA and most “free trade laws” so jobs can begin to flow back into the US.
So far only Mr. Kusinich, and to some degree Mr. Dodd, are willing to define the word "CHANGE".
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» RE: change?---define it!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: dover23
» RE: change?---defined!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: magus65
» RE: change?---defined!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Basenjis
» Harvard instead of Yale
Posted by: anothername
» All the actual Change candidates are being swept off the stage
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: All the actual Change candidates are being swept off the stage
Posted by: Habaro
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hilaryuk on Jan 7, 2008 9:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problems of Western democracy are so fundamental and ultimately damaging that they cannot be solved by just being nice, handsome, personable and different in the most ideologically trivial way possible - skin colour. Too often, comments on this site are about how nice or nasty a candidate is; but you may find it more constructive to listen to the words and policies they enunciate.
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» RE: Learn from UK's mistakes
Posted by: johnclark
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Posted by: Sojourner on Jan 7, 2008 9:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I like Hillary's approach of naming the difference between talking change and making change.
The evidence from Iowa suggests that the new voters we needed to get Gore and Kerry elected might finally be showing up where they belong--in the Demo party.
Keeping our eye on the prize: thank you, Holland.
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Posted by: solrev on Jan 7, 2008 10:08 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: dayenta on Jan 7, 2008 10:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks!
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» RE: Critical Thinker
Posted by: Joshua Holland
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Posted by: bthespoon on Jan 7, 2008 10:22 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: pdxstudent on Jan 7, 2008 10:23 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think this quickly requires the most wishful thinking in the world to turn into what you want it to be---i.e. a snowball's chance in hell of Obama being the progressive we want and need. Considered in a process of political thinking, it's ideological thinking as much as I've pointed out elsewhere. There is still something anti-democratic about the notion that we should vote "electability" hoping that it comes with the bonus prize of getting a president that does what we want too.
Something is clear about so-called progressives and liberals who get behind the neoliberals: they don't want change, but merely the presidency.
They may convince themselves with the very wishful thinking you prescribe. This will come to no good though, because there has yet to be (nor will there ever be) a patently neoliberal, self-proclaimed bi/post-partisan politician who has kept enough of a core of progressive vitality to trick the electorate into shooting themselves in the foot just so s/he can come to save them. As yet, there is no reason to believe this will happen, only as you put it, "hope." I sure as hell ain't hoping for the president I want, I'm being an active part of getting one by supporting Dennis Kucinich.
The Democratic Party is turning into the Commodity Party, and people don't buy commodities because they are quality products, but because they are crafted to be consumable--i.e. cheap and widely distributed. Likewise, people aren't buying Obama or Clinton or even Edwards for what they think is behind the candidates backs, for some chewy center of progressive authenticity obscured by a rhetorical candy coating. No, people are buying these candidates precisely for what they are peddling: electability and neoliberalism.
So, the rhetoric/substance distinction really belongs to those who have begun to contemplate how it's all rhetoric, but who continue to hold out ever less tenable hope that there is really something there, even if it won't show up until after they are elected (would you buy something before knowing what it was?) Hopefully by the time they make it to the voting booth, they will have realized how the fantasy goes straight to the core, and will finally vote in their progressive interests for Dennis Kucinich. If not, as Dennis has reminded us, they get what they deserve.
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» That's why I am voting for Kucinich!
Posted by: PaulC
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Posted by: dover23 on Jan 7, 2008 10:27 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the Democrat "mandated" legislature is doing nada, nil, nothing. It's amusing to hear talk of change from these Dems running for prez. The ultimate winner will be nothing more than the fall guy (or fall gal) for the collapsed economy over the next few years.
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Posted by: Sushi on Jan 7, 2008 10:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is this...high school? Apparently we Americans are being treated as if we have not moved beyond teenage popularity contests, taunts and whispers. What's next? "He/she smells funny." "Your mom wears army boots." "He's wearing yellow and green on Tuesdays...that means he's queer."
Grow the fuck up, folks. The future of the country hangs in the balance here. We've got a choice of more-of-the-same, stuck-in-a)-rut policies or moving into the 21st Century where we might all have some hope of solving all the messes we've created.
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» RE: "Rhymes with Osama?" - Please help me Sushi
Posted by: johnclark
» RE: "Rhymes with Osama?"
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: Hans B on Jan 7, 2008 10:56 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The question whether Obama has the courage to face down the neocons has already been answered: like Al Gore, he publicly opposed the Iraq war (in one of his most brilliant speeches ever) back in the days when that was called treason. Clinton and Edwards did not have that courage, and it seems rather strange to now expect a more principled stance from them than from Obama.
I'm no Obama fan but I do agree with him that repairing the harm Bush has done requires reaching beyond party lines, the more so since the Democratic Party lacks the spine to do it alone, even with a majority in Congress. I don't think that means he's willing to compromise on principle.
And there's a long-term interest involved, too. A partisan approach, no matter how victorious in the short term, will not solve anything if the following President is a neocon again. There is potential for weaning some, perhaps many, Republicans away from the fascist tendencies which have taken over their party, and thereby destroying the neocon threat not just for four years but for good. Obama's bet seems to be that many Republicans are sick of their insane leadership. I think and hope he's right.
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» RE: One can be bipartisan and still fight the neocons
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: re
Posted by: Hans B
» I don't know, you have to facilitate the change and force
Posted by: PaulC
Comments are closed-
Posted by: johnclark on Jan 7, 2008 11:20 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I haven't done work for a Democratic presidential candidate since 1988. Back then, we lived in DC (& were Statehood Party) but had to do our registration work in Maryland. The Mayor was too afraid of the Rainbow. It was moderate Democrats that gave George's daddy the election because they didn't accept Jessie's concession speech at the convention. They would rather lose the presidency than to have too much Rainbow and be challenged next time.
When we moved to Maryland we saw what our work did --- Young Turks beating machine politicians, old guard whites moving east as we moved in, and progressive politics on the rise.
For instance, my three delegates and senator are ALL pro-marriage (progressive enough for you?). The only set back we had in years was when a Kennedy was put up for governor. And she lost because they would not allow the base to be organized. We couldn't even get a yard sign out of her (& a fight me & my partner didn't need to have about putting it up)!
For me, the Obama campaign is about raising this insurgency in a way that the DLC and their ilk cannot stop. In Maryland, the real election next month will be the one in the 4th Congressional district next door to us --- Donna Edwards vs Al Wynn. In 2010, the new voters will help us force Hoyer to retire in the other Congressional district next door (and there are already good Donna Edwards like candidates who can beat him). And yes, our districts are so Gerrymandered that we border two plus DC.
And that is why I'm thinking about actively working for Barack. The more people that vote, the better they vote. That's why I have faith in the democratic system, even though I have little faith in the Democratic party.
And Joshua, you are right that some of the comments posts come straight from the campaigns (or campains as I saw someone say today). When I formally start working for Obama (even though he's only pro-civil unions), I will disclose.
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» RE: Thanx for the fair & balanced article
Posted by: Joshua Holland
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Posted by: Raybo on Jan 7, 2008 11:33 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ray Teurfs
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: Skills83 on Jan 7, 2008 1:45 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But I do welcome those who bring thoughtful and insiteful criticisms to his candidacy.
I think if you look at Clinton and Obama, its much easier for Obama to suddenly start hashing out policy issues than it is for Clinton to suddenly get charisma and leadership skills.
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» RE: Obama Haterz
Posted by: left_libertarian
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Posted by: left_libertarian on Jan 7, 2008 2:31 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Grow A Spine Democrats: Impeach Bush & Cheney
Posted by: peacefullaim
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Posted by: DorothyNed on Jan 7, 2008 3:56 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Obama IS the "Establishment" (CFR & All)
Posted by: LookOut
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Posted by: anothername on Jan 7, 2008 4:00 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was at the library to look at newspapers. The Iowa caucus entrance poll reported in the New York Times and conducted by the National Election Pool (ABC, CBS, CNN, FOX, NBC, et al.) and polling organizations showed why the Republicans keep winning. The poll was conducted at 40 Dem caucuses and at 40 Rep caucuses with a +/-4% margin of error. The questions were not identical, but close. The top trait in a Republican candidate? Shares my values. The top trait in a Democratic candidate? Change.
Come November, those 43% of Republicans who chose a candidate who shares their values, followed by the 33% who say saying what he believes is an important candidate trait, are going to be a whole lot more excited about going to the polls and supporting their candidate than will the Democrats who (51%) just want change. Cares about me came in at 19%. As I’ve posted elsewhere on AlterNet, the fact that none of the candidates care that I want recycling, public transportation, decent jobs that don’t consume my life, and public participation over constant consumer spending makes it likely I will not care about voting for those candidates.
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Posted by: representativepress on Jan 7, 2008 4:15 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Edwards Over Obama for the Win
In a CNN survey of December 6--9, Edwards beat Huckabee by 15 points more than Clinton and 10 points more than Obama. And Edwards beat Romney by 11 points more than Clinton and 9 points more than Obama. (pass it on)
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» Edwards is the better candidate..
Posted by: xvictor
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Posted by: Joe on Jan 7, 2008 4:33 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But then again, what do i know. Liberals always know what's best, correct, and what is reality.
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» RE: The Ariticle Writer Is So Full Of Crap
Posted by: yellow
» I also heard someone on the boob-tube say that
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: I also heard someone on the boob-tube say that
Posted by: dkeithley
» I am not black, so I am speculating and watching
Posted by: PaulC
Comments are closed-
Posted by: LookOut on Jan 7, 2008 4:45 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kucinich (blacked out by corporate Big Media) is the only "fighter" Dem left that comes close to being a real candidate for the people.
It's truly amazing how easily Americans can be bought by feel-good speeches and empty slogans. Obama is about as real as a department store Santa Claus on a Big Oil rig.
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Posted by: TruthBeTold on Jan 7, 2008 6:02 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The same bigoted uninformed people who voted against Harold Ford will also vote against Obama. And do to Obama what was done to Harold Ford. For the simple reason that he is black.
One other thing that will go against Obama and any other Democrat running for president are the phoney liberals who, having never accomplished a single significant thing in their lives, constantly put down Obama, Hillary, Edwards or anyone else who has achieved sotmething in their lives. It almost seems as if these people get their talking points from the reich-wing.
Case in point, listen to SIRIUS radio channel 146 to the two so-called talk show hosts (one male/one female) out of New York. One calls Obama "macaroon", among other things and the other makes statements like "I looked into his eyes and they were empty" and "perhaps he sold his soul to the devil". And these are the nice thing said. This stuff goes on daily. Of course they attract like minded callers.
Add to this the Faux News followers who only know what they hear on Faux News and the Trent Lott, Karl Rove, Ann Coulter, Michael Savage types.
Are there enough informed and critical thinking voters in this country who could neutralize the nut jobs?
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» RE: Can Obama Win???
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Can Obama Win???
Posted by: aonghus36
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Posted by: fifthworld on Jan 7, 2008 6:17 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: The Winch on Jan 7, 2008 6:19 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Obama -- and, to a degree, Edwards -- both understand the importance of reaching out to voters on an emotional, "gut" level."
You should reverse the names.
People fall into four basic categories of problem solvers. They either prefer to solve problems using:
Motivation
Organization
Information
or Action
Obama prefer using ideas. He is much more pensive, philosophical, preferring to think before responding. He's a classic ENTP (one of the Myer's Briggs type). He has learned the skills of being an emotional motivator, but that's not what comes to him spontaneously.
This contrasts with Edwards who prefers motivation as his primary problem solving tactic. FWIW, Hillary prefers organization and "W" prefers action.
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Posted by: Longdream on Jan 7, 2008 6:44 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyone who listens and reads with any degree of discernment, and anyone who's looked at his voting record knows that very well.
The more you Ronettes take over every discussion with your sweaty, urgent semanticizing and hula-dancing with the facts, the worse your candidate looks.
We can read. We understand English. Ron Paul isn't fooling anybody, and you all look like bovine idjits.
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» RE: Hey! Obama Is Just Another Imperialist
Posted by: left_libertarian
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Posted by: Blink on Jan 7, 2008 7:22 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I think you mean to say Obama is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
Posted by: Coleman
» I think he was being sarcastic
Posted by: hellofriends
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Posted by: hellofriends on Jan 7, 2008 10:24 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: C-Dawg Blake on Jan 8, 2008 5:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's another comparison: U.S. bravado v. Brit pluck. In this country, despite all the tough talk, someone blows himself up in a subway here and we'll close down mass transit systems, appoint a task force, crumble economically, cave in to fear, and lash out mindlessly. The Brits? When it actually happened they were riding the rails the next day. They don't talk tough; they are tough.
That's Obama. He's a community organizer and civil rights lawyer. Yeah, he votes to give adequate protection to military personnel for an occupation he despises. He makes concessions. But he will get us out responsibly, acknowledging that surprises are ahead. He was the first who said he would talk with enemies. He showed up on the doorstep of Detroit when he was down by ten points in Iowa and told a crowd of silent automakers they need to get their act together. He's the one who introduced legislation three months ago to retard W.'s asinine designs for attacking Iran (still the biggest single issue in the world, though virtually nobody talks about it here).
I'm not concerned about Obama's toughness. He won't crack. And the "experience" thing is laughable, because the only benefit to experience is good judgment, which Obama has. He gets it on the electorate, obviously. After winning the nomination he can grab Edwards for V.P. and, smiling all the way, together they can go after the bastards.
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Posted by: lostgirl00 on Jan 8, 2008 8:49 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: lostgirl00
Posted by: EdinIowa
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Posted by: left_libertarian on Jan 12, 2008 3:13 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hopes to remove all troops from Iraq by 2013, but no pledge
Q: Gen. Petraeus and Pres. Bush indicated that in January 2009, there will be 100,000 troops in Iraq. What do you do?
A: I hope and will work diligently in the Senate to bring an end to this war before I take office. And it is very important at this stage, understanding how badly the president's strategy has failed, that we not vote for funding without some timetable for this war. If there are still large troop presences in when I take office, then
Q: Will you pledge that by January 2013, the end of your first term, there will be no US troops in Iraq?
A: I think it's hard to project four years from now, and I think it would be irresponsible. We don't know what contingency will be out there. I believe that we should have all our troops out by 2013, but I don't want to make promises, not knowing what the situation's going to be three or four years out.
Source: 2007 Democratic primary debate at Dartmouth College Sep 26, 2007
http://tinyurl.com/yfhqps
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Posted by: pdxstudent on Jan 7, 2008 12:25 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"But if Iowa showed anything, it's that it's not wise to underestimate Obama's approach. As every political observer knows, the themes a politician uses on the campaign trail often don't match his or her style of governance once elected. That's rarely considered a good thing, but in this case, people seeking real change should hope that Obama's feel-good language is just campaign spin."
You introduce a level on which to consider their representative, and it's a crucial first step. People need to start asking themselves not "can he win," but "if he wins, can we trust him to do what we want?" I still think this is a pathetic and painful way to make political decisions, to say nothing of how one lives their life, but it's better than where we started. The natural next and final level is getting most of the voters to by-pass the first two stages to just asking "Will s/he do what we want?"
I know you can't do it in every article, but some serious consideration not just of how bad the GOP has been and still is, but what the Democrats' complicity in otherwise GOP agendas means. True Democrats aren't fighting just the GOP and neoconservatism, but their own Party and its trend towards neoliberalism.
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» RE: Thank You
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: Obama takes Neocon money, Edwards should WIN!!!!
Posted by: MeridaLady
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Posted by: g50 on Jan 7, 2008 1:26 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The right wants the left to fight. That is because when they come to the fight, the left is charged up, pissed off, passionate, etc. The right, which understands how acting calm & self-assured makes people trust you, depends upon the comparison of the sober righty vs. the passionate lefty foaming at the mouth about how much of a jerk is the righty.
Basically, the right says things which are unreasonable in a reasonable way, while the left - and I am guilty as charged - says reasonable things in an unreasonable way. Think of how many times you have been frustrated by some block-headed conservative, only to begin talking about imperialism or genocide or patriarchy, etc. While what you say may be true, a lot of people see or hear such rhetoric and think "that is a crazy person".
No, this is wrong. We don't need a fighter. If we have a fighter, their politicians will be able to unify as an effective opposition because the lines between the parties will be clearly marked.
Someone who is a conciliator & who reaches out to all will put the Republicans in an extremely difficult position. They will be disorganized and frequently coopted because they will be deprived of their main weapon - the contrast between trustworthy normal person & rabid leftist.
You don't change the power of this caricature of "radical leftist" by fighting - you change it by making a new caricature, that of "reasonable leftist".
I know there is a lot of ambiguity in these ideas, and the notion of a fighter is very popular here. But we can create new & better patterns.
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» RE: No
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: No
Posted by: skydog
» Don't compromise
Posted by: bthespoon
» WTF!!!
Posted by: sausage
» RE: No
Posted by: wonkywriter
» RE: No
Posted by: greenthumb
» What no one seems to be recognizing here is that
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: No
Posted by: tap17x
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Tom Degan on Jan 7, 2008 2:08 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Making History in Iowa
Cheers!
Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
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» RE: For more on that subject....
Posted by: patfr
» Are we ready for a black president? It depends.
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Are we ready for a black president? It depends.
Posted by: bthespoon
» RE: Are we ready for a black president? It depends.
Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Are we ready for a black president? It depends.
Posted by: carbon-based
» RE: Great article ~ "Making History....."
Posted by: Sissy
» RE: Great article ~ "Making History....."
Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: For more on that subject.... **SORRY, NOT INTERESTED**
Posted by: maribelle
» RE: For more on that subject.... **SORRY, NOT INTERESTED**
Posted by: Tom Degan
Comments are closed-
Posted by: HeKnew on Jan 7, 2008 3:11 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: HeKnew on Jan 7, 2008 3:11 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Suzon on Jan 7, 2008 3:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As I understand it, in 2002 Congress changed the bankruptcy laws, taking away the protection that once existed for home owners. Good for banks, bad for people. I believe that both Edwards and Clinton voted for it. Edwards can and should admit he was as wrong on that as on Iraq.
Banks and other corporations have different kinds of clout in the US and the UK. In the US, it's the donations to candidates. In the UK, it's the Queen's ministers doing whatever the Queen's supporters want. Over the last 30 years, the monarchy has corrupted the democracy. CEOs have been stuffing their pockets and corporations have engaged in shameful even criminal activities (Blackwater anyone?).
Legislation leaving American home owners without protection once previously enjoyed should be repudiated on the grounds that no respectable government should make life less secure--less just--for its citizens.
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» RE: the sound of silence and an opportunity ignored by the top contenders
Posted by: Tom Degan
» Now lenders plan to use health insurance in credit scores
Posted by: bthespoon
» Really?
Posted by: bookie
» Good, then we can get back to health care the way it was suppose....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: the sound of silence and an opportunity ignored by the top contenders
Posted by: carbon-based
» You either miss the entire point, or your totally ignorant of the....
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: KAEL on Jan 7, 2008 3:46 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Some things to ponder
Posted by: Sissy
» Oh, don't worry, he has 6, count them, 6 CFR members on his...
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: davescott on Jan 7, 2008 4:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: AMEN!
Posted by: Sissy
» There's a much better way......
Posted by: xvictor
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Posted by: Davidco on Jan 7, 2008 4:22 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The establishment would love us to believe that election of a black or a woman represents some kind of substantive change. In reality, both would spend the rest of their terms studiously avoiding the interests of blacks and women respectively to show their 'post partisan' impartiality.
Perhaps a landslide victory would free some "inner" Obama who was lost decades ago. For the moment, he cannot even make false promises about what this country really needs.
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Posted by: nochicagoboys on Jan 7, 2008 4:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"That's because progressives' best hope with Barack Obama would be that he use his message of 'hope' and reconciliation to bring millions of new voters into the process for the first time, gather an enormous amount of political capital, and then turn around, take off the gloves and shove that mandate right down the GOP's throat."
If, as the author writes, this is the ultimate strategy of the Obama drive for the presidency, I think it's feasible. If it's not, and he's just pandering to human emotion in order to garner votes, I'm afraid we're in for more of the same. As John Edwards said, and Mr. Holland cited in his excellent article, "I don't believe you can sit around a table with the drug companies, the insurance companies or the oil corporations, negotiate with them - and then hope they'll just voluntarily give their power away. You can't nice them to death - it doesn't work."
Well, there it is, the message of "hope", that the good Senator wants us to follow and believe. Let's "hope", if elected, a President Obama can turn hope into action -- because the moneyed elite will not bow-down to "hope". I'm sure of that.
Best of luck, to everyone, in 2008. I'm afraid we'll need more of that, than hope.
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» Dammit, vote Edwards, he will clean this mess up... he has a...
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: bthespoon on Jan 7, 2008 6:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Ever hear of paragraphs?
Posted by: cjohnson44
» Some blogs run them together anyway
Posted by: bthespoon
» No, I am grateful for what you wrote.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: The Audacity of False Hope
Posted by: liblady2008
» Let's make a little practical sense.
Posted by: Longdream
» Don't talk about the Canadian system... a young boy was turned down...
Posted by: Prophit
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Posted by: xvictor on Jan 7, 2008 6:06 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While change may likely be beneficial in the long run, we are looking at folks who desire immediate gratification. They want it overnight. And they don't like change with pain, bother, and fuss. But you can't have change without some pain or sweat.
Change involves pain and inconvenience and people in the country will not be comfortable in doing away established practices and habits that change will obviously affect. Such as belt-tightening, tax raising, removing excess government programs (or even doing away with some "successful" gov't programs), doing away with certain conveniences, taking this instead of that, etc.
There are folks who want to believe that an omelet can be had without breaking the eggs. Guess what? lots of eggs have to be broken to reach that omelet goal. Surprise! Surprise!
So after folks really learn what "change" entails it's likely they will not accept it. They will not accept Obama. Quite frankly, Obama himself may not really know what change is. Good-intentioned folks will return to the status quo with the concept of change existing only in their minds.
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» RE: Obama preaches "CHANGE". Do people really want it??
Posted by: NoPCZone
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Posted by: Progbiz on Jan 7, 2008 6:20 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Obama represents false hope
Posted by: bthespoon
» RE: Obama represents false hope
Posted by: magus65
» Democrats won't need 60 seats in the Senate if Obama wins
Posted by: PaulC
Comments are closed-
Posted by: EncinoM on Jan 7, 2008 6:58 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For this country to advance we need a leader for through we may at times disagree with, we can respectfully disagree and understand he is doing what he believes is best.
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» What if honesty and justice...
Posted by: bthespoon
» We need to reach common ground
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» RE: We need to reach common ground
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: In particular it will require investigation for the criminal behavior
Posted by: Christie
» RE: In particular it will require investigation for the criminal behavior
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» RE: We do not need conflict but to reach common ground
Posted by: magus65
» RE: We do not need conflict but to reach common ground
Posted by: EncinoM
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Posted by: Kryptman40k on Jan 7, 2008 7:06 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama voted for the war in Iraq.
Obama talks about bombing Iran.
Obama voted for the US patriot act.
Obama's wife is on the board of directors for CFR.
Obama will NOT end the wars and talks about keeping our country on the offensive.
Wake up and stop supporting the "left wing" because you think they support you.
Nancy pelosi knew about the torture tapes and did nothing. Harry Reid supports abortion.
Ron Paul is the only true peace candidate and wants to cripple the military industrial complex. You have a rare chance to actually DO something to change our country with Ron Paul. No democrat will bring change like he will.
Ron Paul is the only person running for president who is not CFR!!!!
Read and learn Plz.
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» And Ron Paul will lead us straight to hell
Posted by: Ellie1
» RE: And Ron Paul will lead us straight to hell
Posted by: Kryptman40k
» RE: And Ron Paul will lead us straight to hell
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: And Ron Paul will lead us straight to hell
Posted by: Kryptman40k
» RE: And Ron Paul will lead us straight to hell
Posted by: EncinoM
» RE: And Ron Paul will lead us straight to hell
Posted by: Joe
» Please don't be distracted
Posted by: bthespoon
» RE: Please don't be distracted
Posted by: Kryptman40k
» RE: Please don't be distracted
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: WAKE UP left wingers and democrats!
Posted by: skydog
» RE: WAKE UP left wingers and democrats!
Posted by: ronheri
» RE: CFR? Code of Federal Regulations
Posted by: chaoslegs
» Ron Paul is against regulation to the point he is dangerous
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: on Paul is against regulation to the point he is dangerous
Posted by: peacefullaim
» Ron Paul is not the only nonCFR cand.
Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: OP was destroyed in Ron Paul forum for being an ignorant prick.
Posted by: Hoboblue
Comments are closed-
Posted by: anothername on Jan 7, 2008 7:21 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The National Council of state legislatures released a report in 2006 on term limits. It notes that term limits force legislatures to become aggressive from the start, instead of taking time to learn how (a cooperative) system works. In addition, the staff turns off at a higher rate, too, which reduces opportunities to build long-term relationships across the aisles. This lack of cooperation did not spring up in a vacuum or overnight.
BlogHer created a list of 12 questions that women want the candidates to answer; but the candidates are ignoring this female version of the DailyKos.
Barack Obama would never have been asked to run for office if Hillary Clinton had not had the backing of the old Democratic Leadership Council. If the anti-Clinton group ran just another white man, Clinton would have won. Obama is being used as much as he is using people. Race has to be mentioned just because we have not had a president other than white men, but the vast majority of people are more interested in the Ivy League, smooth talking, tall organizer.
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» With Barak and Hillary in the Senate
Posted by: bthespoon
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Posted by: brucerise on Jan 7, 2008 7:38 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.findbilover.com
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» Edwards could improve on this issue
Posted by: bthespoon
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Posted by: realist on Jan 7, 2008 7:47 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That sounds eerily like George W. Bush's agenda in 2000. Look where it got us. Now you want progressives to do the same thing? Gee, I can't imagine why the American people are so cynical.
It just proves my point that the extremes on both ends of the spectrum have both gone so far around the bend that they're meeting each other on the other side. That's how we got neo-cons - conservatives who justify the use of big government powers to invade Iraq and take away our civil rights.
Your prescription would relegate Obama to the status of "useful idiot." That's how the Dems tried to treat Bill Clinton when he first took office; they promptly lost both houses of Congress, and left Clinton to fend for himself. The same thing eventually happened with Bush. Obama should take note.
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Posted by: ReallyBearish on Jan 7, 2008 7:49 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We're getting a youth vote (that normally doesn't vote) because of economic threats. This is going to drown out the single social issue voters. The Republicans can try to hang on to that sliver as if it will save them. It won't.
Swift Boat away. It will fail. The real solution to the Right's problem is to rig the election to stop a Dem victory. They could do that with a 3rd party candidate, or they could just cancel the elections all together. I'd consider that more likely.
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» More likely they will try to assassinate Obama
Posted by: PaulC
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Posted by: cjohnson44 on Jan 7, 2008 8:09 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This jerk will keep riding the race card to go as far as he can.
Let's get a REAL fighter and FDR Democrat in there - let's get JOHN EDWARDS.
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» RE: Obama is a joke.
Posted by: tclaverdure
» RE: Obama is a joke.
Posted by: dkeithley
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Posted by: MartyF7 on Jan 7, 2008 8:16 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Is that the problem now?
Posted by: anothername
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Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle on Jan 7, 2008 8:33 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Obama won over legislators to bring change to Illinois
By CHARLES PETERS, The Washington Post
January 07. 2008 12:25AM
People who complain that Barack Obama lacks experience must be unaware of his legislative achievements. One reason these accomplishments are unfamiliar is that the news media have not devoted enough attention to Obama's bills and the effort required to pass them, ignoring impressive, hard evidence of his character and ability.
Since most of Obama's legislation was enacted in Illinois, most of the evidence is found there - and it has been largely ignored by the media in a kind of Washington snobbery that assumes state legislatures are not to be taken seriously.... [Full column at the link.]
That said, I'm voting for Kucinich. He's a fighter, too.
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» I live in Illinois
Posted by: bthespoon
» Let's get him elected then to Majority Leader.
Posted by: Sojourner
» Anything that keeps him in the Senate
Posted by: bthespoon
» RE: Let's get him elected then to Majority Leader.
Posted by: EncinoM
» Kucinich is the REAL fighter
Posted by: profedwards
» I'm still standing with kucinich
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: Kucinich is the REAL fighter
Posted by: Habaro
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Posted by: jwpa13 on Jan 7, 2008 9:24 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Which “Top 3” Dem has indicated he/she will roll back these BAD “changes?”
“CHANGE” is a bogus word Unless it is followed by such words as ; …“in our lobbying and campaign finance laws to keep big money from dominating our elected officials” ; …“to lower taxes on the middle class”; …“to bring our troops home from Iraq, Afghanistan, most of and the world to bring an end American imperialism”; (and most importantly) …“to repeal NAFTA and most “free trade laws” so jobs can begin to flow back into the US.
So far only Mr. Kusinich, and to some degree Mr. Dodd, are willing to define the word "CHANGE".
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» RE: change?---define it!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: dover23
» RE: change?---defined!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: magus65
» RE: change?---defined!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Basenjis
» Harvard instead of Yale
Posted by: anothername
» All the actual Change candidates are being swept off the stage
Posted by: hellofriends
» RE: All the actual Change candidates are being swept off the stage
Posted by: Habaro
Comments are closed-
Posted by: hilaryuk on Jan 7, 2008 9:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problems of Western democracy are so fundamental and ultimately damaging that they cannot be solved by just being nice, handsome, personable and different in the most ideologically trivial way possible - skin colour. Too often, comments on this site are about how nice or nasty a candidate is; but you may find it more constructive to listen to the words and policies they enunciate.
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» RE: Learn from UK's mistakes
Posted by: johnclark
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Posted by: Sojourner on Jan 7, 2008 9:56 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I like Hillary's approach of naming the difference between talking change and making change.
The evidence from Iowa suggests that the new voters we needed to get Gore and Kerry elected might finally be showing up where they belong--in the Demo party.
Keeping our eye on the prize: thank you, Holland.
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Posted by: solrev on Jan 7, 2008 10:08 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: dayenta on Jan 7, 2008 10:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks!
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» RE: Critical Thinker
Posted by: Joshua Holland
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Posted by: bthespoon on Jan 7, 2008 10:22 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: pdxstudent on Jan 7, 2008 10:23 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think this quickly requires the most wishful thinking in the world to turn into what you want it to be---i.e. a snowball's chance in hell of Obama being the progressive we want and need. Considered in a process of political thinking, it's ideological thinking as much as I've pointed out elsewhere. There is still something anti-democratic about the notion that we should vote "electability" hoping that it comes with the bonus prize of getting a president that does what we want too.
Something is clear about so-called progressives and liberals who get behind the neoliberals: they don't want change, but merely the presidency.
They may convince themselves with the very wishful thinking you prescribe. This will come to no good though, because there has yet to be (nor will there ever be) a patently neoliberal, self-proclaimed bi/post-partisan politician who has kept enough of a core of progressive vitality to trick the electorate into shooting themselves in the foot just so s/he can come to save them. As yet, there is no reason to believe this will happen, only as you put it, "hope." I sure as hell ain't hoping for the president I want, I'm being an active part of getting one by supporting Dennis Kucinich.
The Democratic Party is turning into the Commodity Party, and people don't buy commodities because they are quality products, but because they are crafted to be consumable--i.e. cheap and widely distributed. Likewise, people aren't buying Obama or Clinton or even Edwards for what they think is behind the candidates backs, for some chewy center of progressive authenticity obscured by a rhetorical candy coating. No, people are buying these candidates precisely for what they are peddling: electability and neoliberalism.
So, the rhetoric/substance distinction really belongs to those who have begun to contemplate how it's all rhetoric, but who continue to hold out ever less tenable hope that there is really something there, even if it won't show up until after they are elected (would you buy something before knowing what it was?) Hopefully by the time they make it to the voting booth, they will have realized how the fantasy goes straight to the core, and will finally vote in their progressive interests for Dennis Kucinich. If not, as Dennis has reminded us, they get what they deserve.
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» That's why I am voting for Kucinich!
Posted by: PaulC
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Posted by: dover23 on Jan 7, 2008 10:27 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the Democrat "mandated" legislature is doing nada, nil, nothing. It's amusing to hear talk of change from these Dems running for prez. The ultimate winner will be nothing more than the fall guy (or fall gal) for the collapsed economy over the next few years.
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Posted by: Sushi on Jan 7, 2008 10:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What is this...high school? Apparently we Americans are being treated as if we have not moved beyond teenage popularity contests, taunts and whispers. What's next? "He/she smells funny." "Your mom wears army boots." "He's wearing yellow and green on Tuesdays...that means he's queer."
Grow the fuck up, folks. The future of the country hangs in the balance here. We've got a choice of more-of-the-same, stuck-in-a)-rut policies or moving into the 21st Century where we might all have some hope of solving all the messes we've created.
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» RE: "Rhymes with Osama?" - Please help me Sushi
Posted by: johnclark
» RE: "Rhymes with Osama?"
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: Hans B on Jan 7, 2008 10:56 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The question whether Obama has the courage to face down the neocons has already been answered: like Al Gore, he publicly opposed the Iraq war (in one of his most brilliant speeches ever) back in the days when that was called treason. Clinton and Edwards did not have that courage, and it seems rather strange to now expect a more principled stance from them than from Obama.
I'm no Obama fan but I do agree with him that repairing the harm Bush has done requires reaching beyond party lines, the more so since the Democratic Party lacks the spine to do it alone, even with a majority in Congress. I don't think that means he's willing to compromise on principle.
And there's a long-term interest involved, too. A partisan approach, no matter how victorious in the short term, will not solve anything if the following President is a neocon again. There is potential for weaning some, perhaps many, Republicans away from the fascist tendencies which have taken over their party, and thereby destroying the neocon threat not just for four years but for good. Obama's bet seems to be that many Republicans are sick of their insane leadership. I think and hope he's right.
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» RE: One can be bipartisan and still fight the neocons
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: re
Posted by: Hans B
» I don't know, you have to facilitate the change and force
Posted by: PaulC
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Posted by: johnclark on Jan 7, 2008 11:20 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I haven't done work for a Democratic presidential candidate since 1988. Back then, we lived in DC (& were Statehood Party) but had to do our registration work in Maryland. The Mayor was too afraid of the Rainbow. It was moderate Democrats that gave George's daddy the election because they didn't accept Jessie's concession speech at the convention. They would rather lose the presidency than to have too much Rainbow and be challenged next time.
When we moved to Maryland we saw what our work did --- Young Turks beating machine politicians, old guard whites moving east as we moved in, and progressive politics on the rise.
For instance, my three delegates and senator are ALL pro-marriage (progressive enough for you?). The only set back we had in years was when a Kennedy was put up for governor. And she lost because they would not allow the base to be organized. We couldn't even get a yard sign out of her (& a fight me & my partner didn't need to have about putting it up)!
For me, the Obama campaign is about raising this insurgency in a way that the DLC and their ilk cannot stop. In Maryland, the real election next month will be the one in the 4th Congressional district next door to us --- Donna Edwards vs Al Wynn. In 2010, the new voters will help us force Hoyer to retire in the other Congressional district next door (and there are already good Donna Edwards like candidates who can beat him). And yes, our districts are so Gerrymandered that we border two plus DC.
And that is why I'm thinking about actively working for Barack. The more people that vote, the better they vote. That's why I have faith in the democratic system, even though I have little faith in the Democratic party.
And Joshua, you are right that some of the comments posts come straight from the campaigns (or campains as I saw someone say today). When I formally start working for Obama (even though he's only pro-civil unions), I will disclose.
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» RE: Thanx for the fair & balanced article
Posted by: Joshua Holland
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Posted by: Raybo on Jan 7, 2008 11:33 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ray Teurfs
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Posted by: Skills83 on Jan 7, 2008 1:45 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But I do welcome those who bring thoughtful and insiteful criticisms to his candidacy.
I think if you look at Clinton and Obama, its much easier for Obama to suddenly start hashing out policy issues than it is for Clinton to suddenly get charisma and leadership skills.
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» RE: Obama Haterz
Posted by: left_libertarian
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Posted by: left_libertarian on Jan 7, 2008 2:31 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Grow A Spine Democrats: Impeach Bush & Cheney
Posted by: peacefullaim
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Posted by: DorothyNed on Jan 7, 2008 3:56 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Obama IS the "Establishment" (CFR & All)
Posted by: LookOut
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Posted by: anothername on Jan 7, 2008 4:00 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was at the library to look at newspapers. The Iowa caucus entrance poll reported in the New York Times and conducted by the National Election Pool (ABC, CBS, CNN, FOX, NBC, et al.) and polling organizations showed why the Republicans keep winning. The poll was conducted at 40 Dem caucuses and at 40 Rep caucuses with a +/-4% margin of error. The questions were not identical, but close. The top trait in a Republican candidate? Shares my values. The top trait in a Democratic candidate? Change.
Come November, those 43% of Republicans who chose a candidate who shares their values, followed by the 33% who say saying what he believes is an important candidate trait, are going to be a whole lot more excited about going to the polls and supporting their candidate than will the Democrats who (51%) just want change. Cares about me came in at 19%. As I’ve posted elsewhere on AlterNet, the fact that none of the candidates care that I want recycling, public transportation, decent jobs that don’t consume my life, and public participation over constant consumer spending makes it likely I will not care about voting for those candidates.
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Posted by: representativepress on Jan 7, 2008 4:15 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Edwards Over Obama for the Win
In a CNN survey of December 6--9, Edwards beat Huckabee by 15 points more than Clinton and 10 points more than Obama. And Edwards beat Romney by 11 points more than Clinton and 9 points more than Obama. (pass it on)
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» Edwards is the better candidate..
Posted by: xvictor
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Posted by: Joe on Jan 7, 2008 4:33 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But then again, what do i know. Liberals always know what's best, correct, and what is reality.
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» RE: The Ariticle Writer Is So Full Of Crap
Posted by: yellow
» I also heard someone on the boob-tube say that
Posted by: PaulC
» RE: I also heard someone on the boob-tube say that
Posted by: dkeithley
» I am not black, so I am speculating and watching
Posted by: PaulC
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Posted by: LookOut on Jan 7, 2008 4:45 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Kucinich (blacked out by corporate Big Media) is the only "fighter" Dem left that comes close to being a real candidate for the people.
It's truly amazing how easily Americans can be bought by feel-good speeches and empty slogans. Obama is about as real as a department store Santa Claus on a Big Oil rig.
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Posted by: TruthBeTold on Jan 7, 2008 6:02 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The same bigoted uninformed people who voted against Harold Ford will also vote against Obama. And do to Obama what was done to Harold Ford. For the simple reason that he is black.
One other thing that will go against Obama and any other Democrat running for president are the phoney liberals who, having never accomplished a single significant thing in their lives, constantly put down Obama, Hillary, Edwards or anyone else who has achieved sotmething in their lives. It almost seems as if these people get their talking points from the reich-wing.
Case in point, listen to SIRIUS radio channel 146 to the two so-called talk show hosts (one male/one female) out of New York. One calls Obama "macaroon", among other things and the other makes statements like "I looked into his eyes and they were empty" and "perhaps he sold his soul to the devil". And these are the nice thing said. This stuff goes on daily. Of course they attract like minded callers.
Add to this the Faux News followers who only know what they hear on Faux News and the Trent Lott, Karl Rove, Ann Coulter, Michael Savage types.
Are there enough informed and critical thinking voters in this country who could neutralize the nut jobs?
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» RE: Can Obama Win???
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Can Obama Win???
Posted by: aonghus36
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Posted by: fifthworld on Jan 7, 2008 6:17 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: The Winch on Jan 7, 2008 6:19 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Obama -- and, to a degree, Edwards -- both understand the importance of reaching out to voters on an emotional, "gut" level."
You should reverse the names.
People fall into four basic categories of problem solvers. They either prefer to solve problems using:
Motivation
Organization
Information
or Action
Obama prefer using ideas. He is much more pensive, philosophical, preferring to think before responding. He's a classic ENTP (one of the Myer's Briggs type). He has learned the skills of being an emotional motivator, but that's not what comes to him spontaneously.
This contrasts with Edwards who prefers motivation as his primary problem solving tactic. FWIW, Hillary prefers organization and "W" prefers action.
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Posted by: Longdream on Jan 7, 2008 6:44 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyone who listens and reads with any degree of discernment, and anyone who's looked at his voting record knows that very well.
The more you Ronettes take over every discussion with your sweaty, urgent semanticizing and hula-dancing with the facts, the worse your candidate looks.
We can read. We understand English. Ron Paul isn't fooling anybody, and you all look like bovine idjits.
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» RE: Hey! Obama Is Just Another Imperialist
Posted by: left_libertarian
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Posted by: Blink on Jan 7, 2008 7:22 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I think you mean to say Obama is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
Posted by: Coleman
» I think he was being sarcastic
Posted by: hellofriends
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Posted by: hellofriends on Jan 7, 2008 10:24 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: C-Dawg Blake on Jan 8, 2008 5:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's another comparison: U.S. bravado v. Brit pluck. In this country, despite all the tough talk, someone blows himself up in a subway here and we'll close down mass transit systems, appoint a task force, crumble economically, cave in to fear, and lash out mindlessly. The Brits? When it actually happened they were riding the rails the next day. They don't talk tough; they are tough.
That's Obama. He's a community organizer and civil rights lawyer. Yeah, he votes to give adequate protection to military personnel for an occupation he despises. He makes concessions. But he will get us out responsibly, acknowledging that surprises are ahead. He was the first who said he would talk with enemies. He showed up on the doorstep of Detroit when he was down by ten points in Iowa and told a crowd of silent automakers they need to get their act together. He's the one who introduced legislation three months ago to retard W.'s asinine designs for attacking Iran (still the biggest single issue in the world, though virtually nobody talks about it here).
I'm not concerned about Obama's toughness. He won't crack. And the "experience" thing is laughable, because the only benefit to experience is good judgment, which Obama has. He gets it on the electorate, obviously. After winning the nomination he can grab Edwards for V.P. and, smiling all the way, together they can go after the bastards.
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Posted by: lostgirl00 on Jan 8, 2008 8:49 PM
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» RE: lostgirl00
Posted by: EdinIowa
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Posted by: left_libertarian on Jan 12, 2008 3:13 PM
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Hopes to remove all troops from Iraq by 2013, but no pledge
Q: Gen. Petraeus and Pres. Bush indicated that in January 2009, there will be 100,000 troops in Iraq. What do you do?
A: I hope and will work diligently in the Senate to bring an end to this war before I take office. And it is very important at this stage, understanding how badly the president's strategy has failed, that we not vote for funding without some timetable for this war. If there are still large troop presences in when I take office, then
Q: Will you pledge that by January 2013, the end of your first term, there will be no US troops in Iraq?
A: I think it's hard to project four years from now, and I think it would be irresponsible. We don't know what contingency will be out there. I believe that we should have all our troops out by 2013, but I don't want to make promises, not knowing what the situation's going to be three or four years out.
Source: 2007 Democratic primary debate at Dartmouth College Sep 26, 2007
http://tinyurl.com/yfhqps
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