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Senator's Inquiry Into Megachurch Money Hypocrisy Sparks Church-State Showdown

By Rob Boston, Church and State. Posted January 11, 2008.


Six megachurches face inquiries into whether "taxpayers are being taken for a ride."

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The New Testament reports that Jesus rarely used fancy modes of transportation to get around. He walked most of the time, although Matthew and other gospels mention that he once rode a borrowed donkey into Jerusalem, where he burst into the Temple and tossed out the money changers.

Nearly 2,000 years later, some who claim to speak in Jesus' name are taking a different view. Consider Bishop Eddie Long, who pastors a megachurch in Lithonia, Ga. With a salary approaching $1 million a year and a nine-bathroom mansion situated on 20 acres, Long's choice of vehicles reflects his opulent lifestyle: He drives a $350,000 Bentley.

Far from casting out money changers, Long is likely to join them. In a 2005 profile in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, he defended his high-flying ways, insisting, "I pastor a multimillion dollar congregation. You've got to put me on a different scale than the little black preacher sitting over there that's supposed to be just getting by because the people are suffering."

Long's lack of humility has probably done him no favors. At the time, U.S. Sen. Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa), expressed dismay.

"When I hear about leaders of charities being provided a $300,000 Bentley to drive around in, my fear is that it's the taxpayers who subsidize this charity who are really being taken for a ride," he quipped.

In November, Grassley, who serves as ranking minority member on the Senate Finance Committee, ramped things up a bit. He announced that he is seeking detailed financial information from six mega-ministries, Long's among them.

The move sent shock waves through the evangelical community. Grassley is a conservative Republican whose votes on social issues usually please the Religious Right. (His 2006 rating from the Family Research Council was 87 percent.) But the senator has long had an interest in preserving the integrity of the tax laws and has in the past complained about secular non-profits violating the law.

In 2005-06, Grassley held a series of hearings on Capitol Hill that included testimony from large non-profit groups such as the Smithsonian Institution and the Red Cross. Now he's turning his sights to the religious sector.

Grassley's investigation focuses on six ministries, all of which preach the "prosperity gospel" -- the theological assertion that wealth is a reward from God:


  • Benny Hinn, a TV preacher who runs the World Healing Center Church in Grapevine, Texas. Hinn, who travels the globe conducting faith-healing revivals, lives in a seven-bathroom, eight-bedroom mansion overlooking the Pacific Ocean valued at $10 million. It is claimed as a parsonage.


  • The Rev. Creflo Dollar's World Changers Church International in College Park, Ga. Dollar drives a Rolls Royce and has large homes in Georgia and New York. He is asked to provide a list of all vehicles provided for himself, his wife, board members and ministry employees.


  • Paula and Randy White's Without Walls International Church in Tampa, Fla. In a letter to the ministry, Grassley asks the couple to provide a list of expense account items "including, but not limited to, clothing expenses and any cosmetic surgery for years 2004 to present."


  • Joyce Meyer Ministries in Fenton, Mo. Grassley asks Meyer and her husband David to explain expenditures like a $23,000 commode with a marble top, a $30,000 conference table, an $11,000 French clock and a $19,000 pair of vases for the ministry headquarters.


  • Kenneth Copeland Ministries in Newark, Texas. Copeland is asked to explain how cash offerings are handled during overseas crusades and to explain the use of a ministry jet for "layovers" in Maui, Fiji and Honolulu.


  • Long's New Birth Missionary Baptist Church in Lithonia, Ga. Among other things, Long is asked to explain a church official's 2005 claim that Long no longer accepts a salary from the church but does take a "love offering."


In each case, Grassley is requesting detailed financial information. The ministries are asked to provide audited financial statements, lists of board members, employment contracts and other information.

Other requests are specific to certain ministries. It has been widely reported, for example, that Hinn often uses a ministry jet to travel to the crusades he holds. This jet often stops along the way for "layovers" at popular vacation spots.

Grassley asks Hinn to provide "a list of all layover trips taken in years 2001 to present" as well as "the number of ministry personnel who stayed during the layover (including name and addresses), the hotel name(s), the lodging costs, the food costs, salary expenses, aircraft costs, and all other layover expenses paid [by the ministry]."

Reacting to reports that David and Joyce Meyer have received gifts of cash and jewelry from donors, Grassley asks the ministry to explain its procedures for handling these gifts and a statement "indicating whether these gifts have been included in the income reported to the Internal Revenue Service for David Meyer and Joyce Meyer for years 2004 through 2006."

What led Grassley to take this step? The Iowa Republican told Church & State that he considers such oversight part of the Senate's responsibility.

"I started a broad-based review of these tax laws after 9-11 when questions were raised about how the American Red Cross used donations made to help victims and their families recover from the terrorist attacks," Grassley said. "Since then I've looked at a wide range of issues, including non-profit tax structures, land conservation, fine art donations, and nonprofit hospitals. This fall I expanded my review to include media-based ministries."

Continued Grassley, "The six ministries that received letters from me were chosen based upon reported allegations of wrongdoing reported by investigative journalists and brought to my attention by interested third parties, sometimes acting as whistleblowers. Some of the accounts were disturbing because of the lack of transparency regarding how these ministries spend millions of dollars, and as an industry, billions of dollars that have been exempt from federal tax."

The ministries were generally cagey in their replies. Hinn said he had referred the matter to his attorneys, an approach that Dollar, the Whites and Meyer also took. Copeland refused to talk to the media. Some also began complaining of government interference.

"Are we saying the First Amendment is null and void by allowing this to happen?" Dollar asked in the Journal-Constitution.

Long, in brief remarks before his congregation Nov. 11, called the Grassley request "an attack on our religious freedom and privacy rights."

Grassley says his inquiry is well within the scope of the law.

"My inquiry has nothing to do with doctrine," he said. "Rather it's about tax law. Is the tax exemption being used according to the law, and is the money that's donated under the tax exemption being used for non-profit purposes?

"It's not an attack on ministries in particular or tax-exempt groups in general," he continued. "The strong majority of non-profit groups, including churches, operate above-board and perform good works that make their tax exemption a bargain for the American people. Allegations have been raised about some ministries, and my inquiry gives them an opportunity to respond to those allegations."

On Dec. 6, the day of the deadline, Grassley's office reported that information had been received from Copeland and Meyer. Attorneys for the Whites indicated that they would contact Grassley's office shortly but gave no indication if they planned to comply. Long indicated he would comply but did not meet the deadline. Hinn requested more time.

Dollar was the only minister to openly defy the request for information. According to media accounts, Dollar's attorneys sent Grassley a letter telling him to either refer the matter to the IRS or issue a subpoena.

The ministries being investigated may have added to their problems by being secretive about their finances. None belong to the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, a voluntary oversight group that many Christian groups choose to join. They are not required to file financial documents like other non-profit groups nor make any financial information public.

Perhaps feeling some heat, Dollar prepared a brief financial statement that he showed to the Journal-Constitution. The document indicated that the church brought in $69 million in 2006. It did not list Dollar's salary, and he insisted he no longer accepts one from the church.

Dollar, who in the past has argued that Jesus was wealthy, also posted a statement on his ministry's Web site. The statement tells church members that they can see a financial report but treats the document like it's a state secret. Furthermore, the process is not exactly user friendly or convenient.

"Members of World Changers Church International can request to review the church's audited financial statements by contacting the ministry at 770-210-5700," reads the Web site. "Please be ready to give your name, member number, and phone number. Once your information has been verified you will be contacted to schedule an appointment to meet with a member of our accounting staff. Once the appointment is made, be prepared to present your photo I.D. for verification when you come."

The statement goes on to say that the statement can be viewed on Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday from 10 a.m. until 11:30 a.m. and from 1 p.m. to 2:30 p.m. and that only last year's statement is available.

Meyer is taking a more proactive approach. Her ministry's Web site contains a section titled "Financial Transparency" that links to a lengthy annual report that concludes with a financial statement.

Says Meyer on the site, "Each year we conduct an independent financial and legal audit. This information, as well as our annual reports for 2003 through 2006, is available on our website. We encourage you to take a look."

On Nov. 28, Meyer's ministry issued a press release pledging to provide "the requested documents for presentation to the senator's office - on time (by December 6, 2007) and in full detail."

The press release also includes a fact sheet responding to specific points raised in Grassley's letter. It asserts, for example, that the $23,000 price tag for the commode (an antique chest of drawers, not a toilet) was an error from the furniture seller. The item, the Meyer ministry says, was purchased along with 67 other pieces of furniture for a total cost of $261,498.21.

But critics say self-generated financial statements are often of limited value. Ole Anthony, head of the Texas-based Trinity Foundation, an evangelical group that for years has spoken out against the excesses of television evangelists, told Church & State that these statements do not guarantee accountability.

"The public has no idea," Anthony said. "The ministries say we have an audited financial statement. But it's a very friendly auditor." In the case of many mega-ministries, Anthony said, church accounting is "woefully lacking."

Added Anthony, "I wish the legitimate church would demand that there be some accountability. These [megachurch] organizations, for the most part their accountability is a relative or just yes men - and if anyone disagrees with them, they're touching the anointed of God or some other B.S."

The legality of Grassley's overture has sparked a spirited debate. Experts at Americans United for Separation of Church and State note that tax-exempt status is granted with the understanding that organizations will work for the public good, not to enrich individuals. Since investigating allegations of fraud should not require the government to make theological judgments, AU attorneys say, mere requests for information are unlikely to be considered a violation of the First Amendment.

Douglas Laycock, an expert on church-state relations who teaches at the University of Michigan Law School, said tax exemption does not mean that religious groups surrender their constitutional rights. But, he added, government must have the power to investigate allegations of fraud.

"As I understand it, the allegations here are that money is being diverted from the exempt charitable purpose to the personal benefit of individuals," Laycock told Church & State. "That is simply tax fraud, if done knowingly. The government has to be able to police that; otherwise, tax exemptions would be so easily abused it couldn't grant them to anybody."

Concluded Laycock, "I have no idea whether the allegations are true in these cases, but the government has to be able to investigate enough to find out."

Other observers note that secular non-profits are closely monitored to make certain they do not violate the law and that religious groups should not expect a free ride.

"There is no free exercise right to tax exemption, and the First Amendment doesn't shield religious organizations from government scrutiny to make sure the tax laws are being complied with," said J. Brent Walker, executive director of the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty.

Walker added, "That said, I would expect that Sen. Grassley and the committee will proceed carefully with an eye toward potential church autonomy rights and religious freedom issues that could be implicated."

Many evangelical religious broadcasters are watching developments with some unease.

"[W]hen I see a senator charging into organizations, wielding this kind of budget ax and laying bare religious figures and expenditures, huge constitutional questions are being raised," said Gary McCaleb, senior counsel at the Alliance Defense Fund, a large, well-funded Religious Right legal group founded by wealthy religious broadcasters.

Although none of the targeted ministries is a member of the National Religious Broadcasters (NRB), the organization sent a letter to Grassley asserting that the probe may be unconstitutional.

The NRB, which is composed of many fundamentalist-oriented non-profit and for-profit entities, issued a press release quoting Craig Parshall, its general counsel, who said Grassley's "overly broad" approach uses "an axe rather than a scalpel."

"We hope this is not a prelude to congressional hearings and possible legislation that would erode the cherished protections that religious ministries enjoy under the First Amendment," Parshall added.

If the ministries are determined to have violated the law, the penalties can be severe. Not only could these groups lose their tax-exempt status, but they could also be fined or their leaders held liable.

The directors of some secular non-profits have learned the hard way that it doesn't pay to violate federal tax law. In 1995, the former head of United Way, William Aramony, was found guilty of using charity funds to finance personal overseas trips and affairs with young women. He was sentenced to seven years in prison.

In 2004, Oral Suer, chairman of the United Way of Washington, D.C., was sentenced to 27 months in prison after he was found guilty of receiving excessive pension payments, misusing leave to boost his salary and billing private travel and personal expenses to the charity.

No one is suggesting that the ministers could end up in jail. And if Grassley proceeds with the investigation, he may have to navigate some treacherous waters. A 1984 law requires the Internal Revenue Service to meet several conditions before a church can be audited. A regional IRS commissioner must approve the inquiry, and the church must be given the option of a pre-examination meeting with the IRS, among other conditions.

But two wrinkles in the law may cut in Grassley's favor: Some of these ministries may not meet the IRS's definition of a church, and the law does not apply in cases of criminal investigations.

What's likely to happen next? The Senate Finance Committee has subpoena power, and as long as Committee Chairman Max Baucus (D-Mont.) agrees, officials with the ministries could be summoned to testify under oath.

Grassley told Church & State that his staff will review the documents, look for possible violations and forward relevant material to "the appropriate enforcement agency."

He added, "This committee staff also will consider whether any of the organizations have taken actions that may go against the spirit and intent of the law. It's often the case that such investigations yield actions that are perfectly legal but shock the conscience and thereby highlight shortcomings in current law or in the enforcement of that law. That said, it's also been my experience more often than not that public scrutiny leads to necessary and credible self correction."

If the investigation deepens, the Trinity Foundation's Anthony is hoping it becomes an opportunity for changing the status quo. He said his group supports laws similar to those in England, where any claim made over the air for the purpose of raising money must be verifiable.

Anthony also said he regrets that Congress has had to get involved. He'd prefer that other religious leaders would counter the "prosperity" TV preachers and mega-evangelists who use their positions to finance extravagant lifestyles.

"For 20 years I've been hoping that the leaders of the legitimate church would stand up and say, 'this is enough,' but they haven't," Anthony said. "It breaks my heart that we have to do this but no one else will."

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Rob Boston is associate editor for Church and State magazine.

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About time
Posted by: beetruetoyou on Jan 11, 2008 7:04 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Enough said

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» ...Rosenrot !! Posted by: SevenStarHand
hang em high
Posted by: schnoggi on Jan 11, 2008 7:21 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
oh i would love to see any one of these bastards roast in hell. i could care less about the idiots who give them their money, they can all rot, too.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: hang em high Posted by: anchoorite
» Don't CONDEMN all donars Posted by: Prairie Waif
» RE: hang em high Posted by: dmmaze6
when a charlatan meets fools ... you get the mega-churches
Posted by: anchoorite on Jan 11, 2008 8:31 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Stupid people ... forever around us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lvU-DislkI

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revdr72741
Posted by: revdr72741 on Jan 11, 2008 8:31 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As one who has seen this from "inside the belly of the snake," I applaud the good senator and his efforts. Being a licensed, ordained minister, who just left the conventional ministry in complete disgust, my fervent prayers seem to be bearing fruit.

For years upon end, I kept asking some of my "fellow brethren" "Just where in the Bible did that justification come from?" Only to be met by sneers of derision, and threats of having me removed from the sanctioning body. As if THEY held the keys to the Kingdom themselves.

There ARE selfless, honest, upstanding persons that are truly called to this work, so ALL ministers should not be tarred with the same brush, but Jesus Himself warned about these types, only most people rarely take the time to truly STUDY the Bible, and understand what it really means as a guide for one's life. One example: Just turn to the 24th Chapter of Matthew, where Jesus is asked about the coming of the end of the world, and the coming of the kingdom. BEFORE He gives them their answer, He WARNS them to; "Take heed that NO MAN deceive you, for MANY shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ, and shall deceive many."

Many come to the church looking for a quick fix for a long-standing problem, and just like an illness, the cause began long before the pain struck. And whenever someone promises a quick cure for your troubles, it usually costs one more than the regular method would. "Name it and claim it" is a hoax, a fraud and an abomination on the name of God, and those that teach and preach it are abominations unto themselves.

Find them, Fine them, and Jail them all!!

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Joan Q., a citizen
Posted by: jeandarc on Jan 11, 2008 8:56 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People looking for answers are often hoodwinked because of their own greed. Some charlatan promises them bling, big digs, and costly wheels because it's "promised" by God, and they're off to church where they give up their $$ in hopes of doubling their "investments".

The charlatans and the *stupid* deserve each other.

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» RE: Joan Q., a citizen Posted by: VZEQICVA
do they actually believe?
Posted by: Grandma Crabby on Jan 11, 2008 8:58 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I always wonder about charlatan preachers...do they even remotely BELIEVE anything they preach?

If they did, wouldn't they be scared to death of burning in hell?

Don't they know that God sees all, reads their minds and He won't be fooled by any of their evil ways?

They must actually be the biggest atheists around...not believing a word of it and just laughing all the way to the bank, or else they are psychological basket cases tormented by fear of being like a shriveled weenie in the campfire.

According to the Bible, Jesus thinks these guys are "dung" and "offspring of vipers" That's bible-speak for snake shit.

Think of that at the next church potluck dinner!

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» RE: do they actually believe? Posted by: pcushniesr
» RE: do they actually believe? Posted by: coñoloco
Something more sininister might be at play here.....
Posted by: CatDad on Jan 11, 2008 9:00 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The "real" reason for the GOP Senator's going after these televangilists is that they are not explicitly supporting GOP candidates...in other words...they're not "with the program." If they went around spewing the standard "culture of life" /slam the homos and God is a Republican venom...I don't think that Grassely would give a rat's ass if they were flying around in Lear jets and buying mink costs with the religious donations. Why not go after Pat Robertson with the same fury? Because he's "with the program."

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» Nope.... Posted by: CatDad
» Another note: Posted by: CatDad
ALL preachers belong in jail for grand theft.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jan 11, 2008 11:02 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a sophomore undergraduate student in Physics, your homework may include
figuring out when the second coming would be required, assuming that the bible
was 100% true in the year zero. That is, when would the bible be down to 50%
true? The popular and professors' answer in 1965 was the year 500. The true
answer: A friend of mine was born and raised in Budapest, Hungary. As an adult,
he came here and stayed. After 25 years, he visited his home town of Budapest.
He was unable to communicate with his high school classmates because the
Hungarian language had changed so much. The correct answer is less than 25
years. The first gospel was not written down until 50 years after the alleged
events and then in a different language. The people who told the story were at
about the same level of civilization as "wild Indians", I mean Native Americans
before Columbus got here. We have all played or seen played the game called
"Telephone" in which a story is passed down a line of re-tellers. By the Sixth re-
telling, the story has no resemblance to the original. The gospel story had to have
been re-told at least 6 times before it was mis-translated the first time. [Note that
whoever wrote it down the first time was free to write whatever he wanted to.
The storytellers were illiterate and unable to check his written text by reading it.
Besides that, he wrote in Greek rather than Aramaic.] Conclusion: There is no
truth anywhere in the bible, and there never was. There is no way to know what
"jesus" or "mohamed" or any other such character actually said or did.

ALL of the jurisdictions that were formerly in the jurisdiction of religion have
been taken over by Science. There is no longer a need to debate the issue.
Religion is an unfortunate side effect of a major and ongoing step in evolution.
[Not that evolution has a predetermined direction. We could devolve, but we have
to get over religion or go extinct. "God" will not save us from the consequences
of global warming or an asteroid impact because there is no such critter as "god.".]
Ethics and morality are instinctive, not derived from religion. Female instinct has
greater force in morality than male instinct because the female is in command of
the sexual encounter. Look up "Sociobiology". The origin of the Universe is the
subject of Cosmology which is part of astronomy which is part of the science of
physics.
Religion is a SCAM. ANY religion, there are 10,000 to choose from at any one
time. People keep inventing new religions [for the benefit of the "prophet," of
course] and forgetting other religions. ALL preachers, priests, imams, rabbis,
iatolas, etc. belong in jail for "grand theft, bunko type".

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» Not this again..... Posted by: moflard
» RE: Not this again..... Posted by: walldodger1969
» RE: Not this again..... Posted by: moflard
» RE: Not this again..... Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
Religion is caused by insanity.
Posted by: AsteroidMiner on Jan 11, 2008 11:22 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion is caused by any one or more of about half a dozen mental illnesses.
The truth about religion can be found in these books:

"The Neuropsychological bases of god beliefs" Dr. Michael A. Persinger MD,
psychiatrist 1987 "Religious people are just like my temporal lobe patients"

"The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bi-Cameral Mind" Julian
Jaynes Professor, Harvard University 1976 "Religious people are just like
schizophrenic patients"

"The Psychiatric Interview in Clinical Practice" Roger A. MacKinnon, M.D.,
Robert Michels, M.D. W. B. Saunders Co. 1971 "Religiosity is a common
symptom [of] schizophrenic patients"

"The God delusion" by Richard Dawkins. "Religion is caused by a kind of
computer virus that infects the living computer, the human brain."

"The Science of Good and Evil" by Michael Shermer, 2004 "Morality and Ethics
are now in the jurisdiction of Science and greatly improved thereby."

Many books in the new science called "Sociobiology": Morals and ethics are
instinctive and they evolved.

"God: The Failed Hypothesis" by Victor Stenger Scientific proof that god does
not exist.

"The God Part of the Brain" by Matthew Alper 1996. "The USA is anomolusly
religious because many early founder groups were religiously insane and fleeing
prosecution in Europe. Religion is a genetic disorder."

"The Accidental Mind" by David J. Linden, 2007 Belknap Press of Harvard
University Press. Religion is caused by the extreme klugeyness of the "designed"
by evolution brain. In particular, the narrative creation system cannot be turned
off. It generates false narratives that are believed by the generating person. This is
seen in experiments done in the laboratory. This book has the best explanation of
resistance to evolution: "There has also been an assumption that if one accepts the
idea that life developed without divine intervention, it necessarily follows that all
aspects of religious thought must be rejected. Those who take this line of
argument to extremes argue that when religious thought is rejected moral and
social codes will degenerate and "the law of the jungle" will be all that is left. It is
imagined by religious fundamentalists that those who do not share their particular
religious faith are incapable of leading moral lives." These suppositions are not
true many times over. Linden later mentions that the creationists [intelligent
design advocates] are exactly 180 degrees wrong rather than just a little wrong.
Being exactly wrong, they are unable to unlearn their error. See Sociobiology or
Sciobio.

"Scientists Confront Intelligent Design and Creationism" edited by Petto &
Godfrey, 2007. The ID and creationist crowd are trying to do away with science.
They see science as a "godless religion." The ID and creationist crowd say
training in science is brainwashing. The creationists are seriously mentally ill. It
is religion that is brainwashing.

"Manufacturing Belief" by Lewis Wolpert
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/05/15/lewis_wolpert/

"The End of Faith" and "Letter to a Christian Nation" by Sam Harris

"Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon", by Daniel Dennett
Let's do scientific research on religion and find out what causes it.

"Origins of the Modern Mind" by Merlin Donald 1991 "So what did you expect
from a brain that is based on the Chimpanzee brain?

Other authors: Christopher Hitchens

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» My take on religious belief Posted by: Cathyc
» Hello Beck... Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Sorry, that's "Talbot" Posted by: channing
» Ho boy.... Posted by: Gungneir
why is any religion subsidized with my tax dollars?
Posted by: illit on Jan 12, 2008 3:12 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've never understood the tax exempt status of any church.
If, for example, a church wants to set up a 'feed the poor' charity - with no proselytizing - fine, that portion of its income is tax exempt - that 'charity' should be subject to the same scrutiny that any secular charity would be.

Why is the Rev. Long's "love offering" tax-exempt and not taxed like lottery winnings?

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Religion is a scam.
Posted by: bitsfick on Jan 12, 2008 4:27 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Organized religion is a scam, who knew? If I may paraphrase Seneca, "Religion is found by the masses to be true, the wise to be false, and the charlatans to be useful.

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» RE: eligion is a scam. Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: eligion is a scam. Posted by: coñoloco
Take'em down!
Posted by: dgrendahl123 on Jan 12, 2008 5:18 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I read one day on the net where a number of years ago a catholic priest said, "the people want to be deceived...let them be deceived!" I think that says mountains of information.

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Hucksters
Posted by: Sissy on Jan 12, 2008 6:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Putting aside individual beliefs or in many cases of the AlterNet posters, non-beliefs, all of these mega church pastors are becoming extremely wealthy on the back of a man who owned only the clothes on his back, travelled barefoot in a small radius and who many times had to sleep under the stars.

Years ago when my Mother became homebound, her "pastor" became the Bakers. You remember them? Tammy Fay and Jimmy? She sent a portion of her limited funds each month to "help them help others". She never did believe they air conditioned a dog house.

I say "good for the Senator" and I never thought I would say that about a conservative.

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» RE: Hucksters Posted by: nochicagoboys
» RE: Hucksters Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: Hucksters Posted by: Sissy
I'd like to see them go after Jimmy Swaggart as well
Posted by: lepidopteryx on Jan 12, 2008 6:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not long ago I heard him on the radio, talking about how he wears designer suits costing thousands of dollars, and designer shoes costing hundreds of dollars, and a Rolex, and he and his wife both drive late-model Mercedes - because GOD GAVE THEM THOSE THINGS! The next day, he's on the air with a PLEDGE DRIVE, talking about how every day, his wife comes into the office and tries to make $100 cover $200 worth of expenses - the light bill, the water bill, etc. for Family Worship Center. And they had just bought another radio station, and now they couldn't make the note. I sent him an email suggesting that he put the desinger suits, shoes, and Rolex on eBay, get replacements for them from Burlington, Payless, and Timex, trade the two Mercedes in for a couple of bicycles, or at least fuel-efficient compacts, and use the money generated by those changes to pay the bills and the station note.
Fast forward a month or so, and he's on the air with another pledge drive, this time because they had to borrow $15,000 to make the month's payroll, AND they just bought another radio station, and they were asking everyone listening to pledge $100, and those who had already made a pledge during the last drive to up it by $100. I sent him another email suggesting that if he didn't have sufficient funds to make his payroll that perhaps he should be selling off some real estate, not purchasing more.
Why do people send these snakes money?

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» Heaven Insurance Posted by: Astroboy
Liars and cheats
Posted by: modeler on Jan 12, 2008 6:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Good for the Senator, actually there should be 99 more following his lead. Those holyrollers belong into jail. The mythical man they use as the basis of their fraud would have thrown them out of the temple. The "healers" like Benny Hinn reject truly sick people from appearing on their show. Crooks all. I feel sorry for the ignorants that fall for the claptrap and finace their despicable lifestyles.

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FREEDOM TO WORSHIP
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Jan 12, 2008 7:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Does not include a license to steal. The mega churches are worth vast amounts of money in assets and cash. If nothing else they make it hard for a legitmate church/charity to exclude themselves from the low life. The tax exempt status has to be examined. It has become an entitlement. A pastor doesn't need a Bently. That amount of money would feed alot of people. Funny thing, the rock stars with all their flaws are very generous. Thanks, ANNA

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Strange yet, representative names
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Jan 12, 2008 8:22 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have to laugh at the names:

"Dollar", "Oral Suer" which ought to be "Sewer",
"Swaggart" as in "Swagger", etc.
The names seem to fit the con artist.

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That's why I'm Atheist
Posted by: donl51 on Jan 12, 2008 8:34 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion,all of them are bullshit,that particular head of a church w/his 350k car the Roman Catholic church,wealthiest in the world,involved in politics ,was involved w/ nazis,and all the gods!,way back when,I was taught their's one god ,well that doesn't seem to be the case now does it!What makes humankind any differant than when they believed in 'false gods' it all makes me laugh,becomming an athiest took a long time for me,lots of unanswered questions,tons of bullshit,

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"No one is suggesting that the ministers could end up in jail"
Posted by: VannaLaRoche on Jan 12, 2008 8:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But please, please, Lord Jesus, we pray in your most holy name that it be so. Please please Baby Jesus please.

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As the great...
Posted by: Nigelthebriton on Jan 12, 2008 9:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...Czech reformer Jan Hus, before he was burned at the stake in Konstanz in 1415, once asked of the church heirarchy in Prague: "If Jesus was poor, why are you so rich?"

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They couldn't save... at Wal-Mart
Posted by: QQOblivion on Jan 12, 2008 9:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These people's idea of saving souls is purchasing 2 for a dollar.
But the really big bucks they spend only on themselves.

Sorry, my soul isn't for sale, you jackasses!

And I agree with another comment. Yes, these CRIMINALS should be in jail!

Think of all the money that suckers send to these people that could have been used by legitimate charities to feed the poor instead. What a waste.

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» What legitimate charities? Posted by: Cathyc
"Charity" and "Hypocrisy" and "False Religious" Exemptions
Posted by: channing on Jan 12, 2008 10:04 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Charity is what you do for another without a return. That was Jesus' definition, and I'm sticking with it. He said if you only give to them who give back to you, it's not giving, or Charity. (Really paraphrased and I won't bother giving the verses in this post)

So, if we are to give a "Charitable Tax Exemption" to any organization it must be clearly demonstrated that they give to those who cannot or do not give back. Who are they, how much was given? This is a matter of a simple audit.

2. The "ministries" listed above claim themselves followers of this guy "Jesus of Nazareth", the "Christ", so to prove they're not a "FALSE RELIGION" the "Leaders" and a demonstrable following should borrow their transportation like Christ did, pay their taxes like Christ did, should forfeit the "Cares of this world" like Christ did, should keep their Houses of Worship free of "Money Changers as Christ did, should "Take up their Cross" and "Lay down their Life" as Christ commanded, should forgive their enemies, turn the other cheek, etc.,.

By examining the texts of their "Religion", it should become readily apparent whether these ministries are False Religions and/or UnCharitable "Houses of Vipers", "Dens of Thieves", or "Hypocrites"... I mean, mere Profiteers and Tax-Dodgers.

And if they want to denounce Christ as the Head of their religion, they can create a New, New testament built around any doctrine they want, however absent the Charitable constraint, I doubt it would look like a Rolls Royce and ocean-front mansion, unless that's what they're giving away.

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Calling religion a sham......
Posted by: reval on Jan 12, 2008 10:11 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
....... is like calling Treblinka a "detention facility." Furthermore, it's an insult to all of the real con artists throughout human history.

The Richard Dawkins Foundation just released a new wideo of four of the greatest thinkers of our time exploring this very subject. You'll find it HERE.

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This is why I no longer go to church
Posted by: weeziewolly on Jan 12, 2008 10:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The hypocrisy is astounding. WWJD? Buy a 30K commode. Think how many needy people could be helped with all of that money...

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» WWJD? Or was that WMD? Posted by: Cathyc
I'm in the wrong business
Posted by: hurricane hugo on Jan 12, 2008 10:49 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How does one go about starting a church?

bwahahahahaha...

plur

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"Legitimate" churches?
Posted by: willymack on Jan 12, 2008 11:12 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What's a legitimate church as opposed to an "illegitimate" one, anyway? They're all traps for the unwary and those not able or willing to THINK FOR THEMSELVES. The witch doctor stands on a platform above his followers,telling them what to think and how to behave. In this fashion, he/she extorts money and considerations from those gullible enough to believe in the legitimacy and truth of the drivel of the day. This has been repeated over and over again for thousands of years with a few changes in gods and prophets (more like profits). The name of the game in the mind of the preacher is control first, and money, second. If you want to debase yourself by praying to an invisible deity, go into a swoon, sing nonsense songs, or roll on the floor, have at it. That right is protected by the first amendment. On the other hand, the very first words of that amendment conote freedom FROM religion-a fact too often ignored by those who are less than virtuous and who prey on those silly enough to hand over control of their thoughts and lives without hesitation or THOUGHT. There is no difference in churches; they're all palaces of humbug, hypocrisy, manipulation, and theft, and in my mind, illegitimate and undeserving of ANY positive consideration.

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NEW BOOK- SNAKES IN THE PULPIT
Posted by: reubenshow on Jan 12, 2008 2:20 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
EXPOSES JOEL OSTEEN. EDDIE LONG,CRFLO DOLLAR AND T.D. JAKES

NEW BOOK SNAKES IN THE PULPIT

WWW.SNAKESINTHEPULPIT.COM

WWW.REUBENARMSTRONGSHOW.CO

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THIS BOOK EXPOSES THESE PASTORS- SNAKES IN THE PULPIT
Posted by: reubenshow on Jan 12, 2008 2:22 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
NEW BOOK SNAKES IN THE PULPIT

T.D.JAKES, EDDIE LONG, JOEL OSTEEN

WWW.SNAKESINTHEPULPIT.COM

WWW.REUBENARMSTRONGSHOW.COM

EXPOSES THESE CROOKS

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re writing history
Posted by: bitsfick on Jan 12, 2008 2:58 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Dollar, who in the past has argued that Jesus was wealthy", and on the same plain Nazi leader Goebbels said that Jesus was Aryan, because he drove the money changers out of the temple. I love it when charlatans and thieves write their own version of history to benefit themselves. by the way Goebbels like Robertson also talked to god.

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LOL Grassley!
Posted by: Sojourner on Jan 12, 2008 3:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
By allowing corporations to contribute to political campaigns because it is "freedom of speech," investigations into church finances are witch hunts. Yes, if the staff of organized religion are tax cheats, they can be caught and penalized. But that won't faze them.

Grassley has to hold hearings in hopes of scaring cheats into better behavior. SCOTUS will penalize all taxpayers by allowing financial awards that will increase the wealth of anyone Grassley maligns or indicts who is not lying about income.

Corporate employees and self-employed individuals are a zillion times more guilty of tax avoidance than clergy. You want to get rich? Become a tax lawyer. Gaming a democratic system takes little imagination.

Is Grassley up for election this year? I have no objections to his hearings. But he can wash his hands all day long and the blood will still be there.

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A lot more than 6
Posted by: cherylholmes on Jan 12, 2008 10:13 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are thousands of these guys out there, especially in Texas and Oklahoma. The IRS could make a killing! I heard Robert Tilton up in Dallas is under investigation too. He has said some pretty nasty stuff when the news confronts him!

Let's face it, if you want to be rich, become a preacher! It's mega business...

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Mega church vs local church
Posted by: SayBlade on Jan 13, 2008 2:41 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Be careful to differentiate between the so-called megacurches and the local church. These megachurches are “evangelical” ministries and not true congregational churches where social justice, relief of poverty and education is the major output of the group.

The role of the Christian church pastor is to challenge members and adherents of a congregational church to go out of the church building and into the community to accomplish these things. The public challenge is usually issued in the form of preaching, teaching and regular contact with church folk. The pastoral role also includes interacting directly with people in situations of need, bringing them together with resources that will meet their need. This models our understanding of the characteristics of the Jesus figure found in Biblical writings.

I expect that this kind of modelling is can be found in other faiths by leaders drawing on the portrayal of figures found in their respective religious scriptures.

It seems that the those who have posted in this forum thus far have lumped all these together, hanging everything on “converting” people to a religious belief through deception and stealing their money in the process. No secular group is immune to this sort of practice either. So, what is accomplished through churches?

The small church I attend, located in the inner suburban area of a major city, employs a full time pastor, three part time staff and maintains an ageing building housing outreaches that: supply food to about 100 low-income families every week; prepares lunch and social activities for some 60 people who cannot work or find work; provides parents of preschoolers with opportunities to take a break; provides space for several children's groups in the community to meet; provides space for pastoral counselling education; teaches social justice and advocacy with a view to resolving systemic barriers in government processes that prevent people who experience poverty, low incomes, exclusion and isolation from achieving income security and a sense of being included; educates people on corporate sources of these barriers; and still manages to have a Sunday service with music, readings, prayer and preaching. All this on an annual budget of well under $150,000 and enough investments to carry us for a few months if nothing comes in through the offering plate.

So, these mega “churches”of whom Rob Boston writes should be exposed for their lumbering, wasteful ways and be distanced from the work of local churches where the whole congregation participates in the leadership and life of the church and, in so doing, enriches the local community.

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» RE: Mega church vs local church Posted by: Intellect
Stealing in the name of the lord...
Posted by: eosrk on Jan 13, 2008 8:29 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Benny Hinn, Creflio A. Dollar, just to name a few.

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As an comedian said....
Posted by: eosrk on Jan 13, 2008 8:37 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
you can't fix stupid. No kind of medicine, any kind of operation, no book or drug can fix stupid......and sending money to these crooks is another reason why we still can't fix stupid...or a deedeedee for that matter.

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my thoughts
Posted by: slusk on Jan 14, 2008 1:42 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ok here is what i think and i am not going to make any personal attacks on anyone but i have personally met bishop Eddie long and i will tell you that what ever he has all this so called rich people stuff he has earned ever bit of it and the world view that well religious leaders who look rich are bad they should give it away or they are stealing money or something is a bunch of bull obviously the person who is going after these preachers doesn't read the bible much or they would know that during jesus's ministry he had alot of people following him that were very wealthy at the crusifiction they were for lack of a better example throwing dice to find out who would get his robe last time i checked you wouldn't take bets for a pore mans clothes the bible also talks about how judus who was jesus's treasurer was stealing money from the money box and nobody knew he was doing it that obviously says that jesus wasn't pore what has happened since then that if a person who labors in the word of god is blessed financially that all the sudden they are a thief or they are doing something bad or lieing about it i find it funny that if a person makes $10 million for acting in a movie that is fine but if someone makes $1 million for preaching at a mega church then that is blasphemy or something the bible flat out says that those who labor in the word are worthy of double honor and last time i checked the bible isn't wrong this is a sad day when it is wrong to be blessed and be a pastor

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» RE: my thoughts Posted by: brock_samson
» RE: my thoughts Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: my thoughts Posted by: kclaf
and their tax exempt because?
Posted by: uncleeddie on Jan 14, 2008 2:31 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The real debate is the tax free status religion receives.

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Tax exemption for "for profit" religious organizations
Posted by: Intellect on Jan 14, 2008 11:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Bishop Eddie Long, who pastors a megachurch in Lithonia, Ga. With a salary approaching $1 million a year and a nine-bathroom mansion"

Nine bathrooms? Well, maybe - because he is so full of bullshit!

These blatant excesses and who knows how many more underline why churches should not be tax exempt!
After all, tax exemption is in reality government support, which in truth is forbidden by our Constitution's First Amendment.
Tax exemption for religious organizations should be revoked.

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IRONIC
Posted by: willyd on Feb 1, 2008 11:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These ministries need investigating, BUTTTT, How ironic that a US sen. who flys anywhere he wants and has 2 or more homes, makes a 6 figure salary, gets thousands of dollors of perks from lobbists, is off more days a year than he works would be the man to throw the rock. At least if I was a member of creflows church I could quit giving, Sen. Grassley would have the iRS arrest me if I quit giving to HIS CHAIRTY, the US GOVERMENT.

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