comments_imageCOMMENTS: 252

Immigration Hardliners Try to Unhinge America

Widespread uncertainty about immigration has splintered the U.S., creating an unnecessary panic similar to the Red Scare or the McCarthy years.
December 29, 2007  |  
 
 
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In the past year, we've become a nation of a thousand immigration laws and policies -- a confusing mosaic of fear, anger and nativism, of generosity, reason and self-defeating silliness. Although some of those laws were enacted before the Senate failed to pass comprehensive immigration reform in June, that failure greatly expanded the vacuum that local efforts sought to fill. It has also nourished the demagoguery that helps drive them, made immigration a prime domestic issue in the 2008 presidential campaign and intensified the fears those laws in turn produce.

If your name is Hernandez and you speak little English, can you risk reporting a crime to the local cops without being turned over to Immigration and Customs Enforcement? If you have a contagious disease or you're a drug addict, how willing will you be to seek treatment, and how safe are other residents because of that fear? And what about those driver's licenses? What happens when a car driven by an American citizen collides with one driven by an undocumented -- and uninsured -- immigrant? As the anti-immigrant zealots fan a generalized hysteria, these unresolved questions, which provoke legitimate fears, get little airtime. And there are many more: what are the chances of being stopped on the highway by sheriff's deputies empowered to arrest illegal immigrants, or of legal residents being rousted at midnight by warrantless raids?

There are also important questions of social policy crying out for redress. What sort of future is facing an 18-year-old high school graduate who was brought here by her parents as a young child and knows no other country but can't go to college, get a driver's license or a legal job? Conversely, how large a price should local schools have to pay to teach English to the children of illegal immigrants? A nation struggling with such issues is in dire need of leadership from its central government.

In the first eleven months of 2007, forty-six state legislatures passed nearly 250 immigration laws -- some 1,560 were introduced, nearly triple the number for the same period in 2006. Cities and counties have enacted hundreds more, ranging all over the philosophical and political map.

Begin with the action the city council of Hazleton, Pennsylvania, took in 2006 to prohibit landlords from renting to undocumented aliens. Hazleton's ordinance, which preceded the Senate vote, became a model for similar measures in the Southern California city of Escondido and in the Dallas suburb of Farmers Branch. All three quickly faced constitutional challenges -- the Escondido council reversed itself in the face of mounting legal costs; the Hazleton and Farmers Branch laws were blocked by federal courts. But the anxieties and rage that drove those acts weren't dampened by a couple of judges.

It's a long list. Last February Lake Havasu, Arizona, like a number of other cities, made an agreement with the feds under which local cops will be trained by federal agents to interrogate and detain all illegal immigrants for deportation. In June Green Bay, Wisconsin, voted to yank the licenses of businesses that hire undocumented immigrants. In October the supervisors in Prince William County, Virginia, voted to crack down on illegal immigrants by increasing police enforcement, creating a Criminal Alien Unit and denying virtually all services, including substance abuse counseling. In addition to a long list of sanctions, the Oklahoma Taxpayer and Citizen Protection Act of 2007 makes it a felony to "conceal, harbor or shelter from detection any alien."

Similar state laws have been enacted in Arizona and Tennessee. Alabama has created a Joint Interim Patriotic Immigration Commission to figure out some comprehensive approach to undocumented immigrants (a group that was immediately attacked as being stacked with pro-business and pro-immigrant voices). In October Missouri Governor Matt Blunt issued a press release lavishly praising the arrest and delivery to immigration authorities of a vanload of illegal immigrants who were stopped on the pretext of following another vehicle too closely. He promised (in Churchillian cadences) to "make every effort, implement every tool and take every step to ensure the laws against illegal immigration are enforced." Virginia has prohibited the sale of automatic weapons to illegal aliens, and Rhode Island approved legislation that will issue ID cards to all residents over 21 -- excepting only undocumented immigrants -- allowing them to drink alcohol.

In other places, the response has been more positive. Last summer, the city council of New Haven, Connecticut, enacted a measure to issue what it calls Elm City Resident Cards -- ID cards that also serve as small-balance debit cards -- to all local residents, legal and illegal. In November San Francisco adopted a virtually identical program. Also last summer, the Illinois legislature prohibited employers from participating in the mandatory federal employee verification system until the feds get their data systems in order; the Department of Homeland Security promptly filed suit to overturn the law. (A few weeks later, US District Judge Charles Breyer in San Francisco, citing the high likelihood of error and jeopardy to legal workers, upheld a challenge filed by the ACLU and a coalition of labor and business groups to implementation of the employee "no-match" verification system.) The DHS has since asked for more time to revise the system.

Some fifty jurisdictions, among them San Francisco, Los Angeles and Cambridge, Massachusetts, have declared themselves sanctuary cities or cities of refuge and/or ordered their employees not to cooperate with the feds in enforcing federal immigration laws. Some, like Stamford, Connecticut, have created "no-hassle zones" for day laborers seeking jobs, nearly all of them undocumented. Detroit has an anti-profiling ordinance that prevents cops and other city employees from questioning people on the basis of a whole range of characteristics, including immigration status. Oakland, California, requires all municipal departments to have bilingual employees to deal with its diversity of non-English-speaking residents.

Some jurisdictions have changed their minds. Phoenix, which had been a quasi-sanctuary city, seems to be on the verge of reversing itself. Riverside, New Jersey, conversely, repealed its anti-illegal-immigrant ordinance after the resulting exodus (mostly of Brazilians) hit restaurants, beauty parlors and other local businesses -- some were forced to close -- and left a growing number of boarded-up downtown storefronts. In Oregon the legislature passed a law prohibiting businesses from gouging customers during emergencies, including "a crisis influx of migrants unmanageable by a county." But the state also requires notaries to translate documents for those who don't speak English, even as Kansas and a number of local jurisdictions this year made English their official language. In Pahrump, Nevada, it's illegal to fly a foreign flag unless the American flag is flying alongside it.

Yet anyone looking for simple red state-blue state patterns is likely to be frustrated. Eight states -- Georgia, Hawaii, Illinois, Maine, South Carolina, Montana, Idaho and Nevada, among them some of the most conservative in the country -- have called for the repeal or deferral of the federal Real ID Act of 2005, which, beginning next May, will start to impose a set of stringent verification requirements for issuing driver's licenses and other state identification documents. Some have pledged not to comply. The issue here is not liberal principle but cost and the expected aggravation of motorists (which would obviously be directed at state bureaucrats and politicians, not at Congress) once the rubber meets the road at the state DMV.

And then there's Littleton, Colorado, an upscale Denver suburb with a growing Latino population, where the foundation-supported Littleton Immigrant Integration Initiative (LI3), housed in a city library, offers counseling on healthcare and countless other matters, citizenship tutoring and English-language training to all comers, regardless of documentation. Littleton sits in the heart of the district represented by Tom Tancredo, the Republican (and presidential candidate) who's probably the most rabid foe of illegal immigration in Congress. Alejandra Harguth, who directs the program, says she's rarely gotten any criticism from the community, and none from Tancredo.

Meanwhile, in the uproar that's probably gotten the most recent attention, awkwardly amplified by Hillary Clinton's clumsy handling of the issue in the Democrats' October 30 debate, New York Governor Eliot Spitzer, citing public safety considerations, moved to grant driver's licenses to illegal residents. But he was quickly forced -- in part by pressure from Washington, in part by upstate backlash -- first to modify the policy and then to abandon it altogether. Of all the issues concerning illegal immigrants, giving them driver's licenses (as de facto national ID cards) is far and away the one that generates the fiercest resistance. Even strong backers of legalization concede that this isn't the issue they want to fight about.

If there is any geography here, it's the geography of the immigrant dispersion itself. As more immigrants, Latino immigrants particularly, either move from or bypass the traditional immigrant states -- California, Florida, Texas, New Mexico -- and move into the Midwest and Southeast, where residents have rarely seen brown faces or heard Spanish spoken on the streets and in the malls, the backlash spreads with them. In many places, the new immigrants, stretched to pay for housing, live three or four to a room -- often a total of ten or twelve people or more, with junk cars crowding driveways -- in houses or condos designed for families of four. And of course, there are the new kids in the schools, many speaking little English and requiring additional services, crowding classrooms that were all-white a few years before. Illegal immigration, the Escondido city council determined, "diminishes our overall quality of life." Illegal immigration in such contexts, of course, always means Latinos. But there are also towns in California's Central Valley and in the Midwest that would die without those immigrants.

California, where 27 percent of residents are foreign-born, and which endured an intense anti-immigrant backlash in the early 1990s, appears to have become accustomed to its brown and Asian faces and to the countless accents and languages of its residents -- and of course has assimilated their cuisine, music and art. (Recent Census data indicate that 70 percent of California's "Mexicans" are US citizens.) Its population is now majority-minority; in another generation it will have an absolute Hispanic majority. Many parts of Iowa, South Carolina, Wisconsin, Oklahoma, Virginia, Georgia and Missouri are just starting on that route.

More than anything else, the crazy quilt of contradictory local responses seems to reflect the nation's own ambivalence about immigration. California denies driver's licenses to undocumented residents but grants them in-state college tuition if they attended California high schools. Three years ago Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger lauded the Minutemen, the self-appointed enforcers of a tight border, for doing "a terrific job," and he's vetoed bills passed by the Democratic legislature that would have made undocumented residents eligible for driver's licenses. But in October he signed a bill that prohibits cities from requiring landlords to check whether tenants are here legally.

The polls confirm the ambivalence: 69 percent of adults believe the illegal resident population should be reduced and (by 76 percent) should not be allowed to get driver's licenses. But 43 percent also say that when illegal aliens who've committed no crime encounter local cops, they shouldn't be arrested. By a margin of 58 to 35 they support "a program giving illegal immigrants now living in the United States the right to live here legally if they pay a fine and meet other requirements." By 66 to 33 they say they're not bothered when they encounter Spanish speakers. Some 45 percent (in an earlier poll) say immigration is a good thing; 19 percent, a bad thing; some 33 percent have no opinion.

But as with issues like gun control, the intensity of an opposition -- in this case fueled by economic insecurity and fanned by radio and TV talkers -- tends to overwhelm the pressure from the broader but generally passive pro-legalization plurality. Illegal immigration is the hot-button issue not only for the national talkers and bloggers, from Ann Coulter to Lou Dobbs to Rush Limbaugh, but for local and regional talk-radio hosts as well -- Roger Hedgecock in San Diego, Armstrong Williams in New York, Terry Anderson in Los Angeles, Melanie Morgan in San Francisco, Martha Zoller in Gainesville, Georgia, Dom Giardano in Philadelphia and a score of others. Last April, having organized themselves into a quasi lobby called Let's Hold Their Feet to the Fire, thirty-four of them brought their microphones and some of their listeners to Washington, broadcasting to their home audiences, urging anti-immigration e-mails and faxes and working Congressional offices to head off comprehensive immigration reform. Anything that might lead to legalization was "amnesty." In its own survey, the nonpartisan Project for Excellence in Journalism gives Limbaugh et al. a big share of the credit for killing the immigration bill.

That bill, vulnerable on the right and left on any number of points, was an easy target for oversimplification. But the talkers also played a central role in stopping the appealing DREAM Act, a bipartisan bill -- its sponsors included Democrat Dick Durbin of Illinois and Republicans Richard Lugar of Indiana and Chuck Hagel of Nebraska -- that would have provided a path to legalization for some 365,000 undocumented students who were brought here by their parents as young children, attended and graduated from high school and intended to go to college or serve in the military. No one could claim that they were lawbreakers. Many never knew their native countries and don't speak the language, and few have any interest in going back. At a time when the imminent retirement of millions of baby boomers is predicted to leave major shortages of skilled workers and when the nation has already invested billions in their education, deporting them seemed as self-defeating as it was cruel. But none of that reduced the intense pressure on a Senate minority -- nearly all Republicans -- to kill the bill with a threatened filibuster.

It is probably also the talkers and their angry listeners who, as much as anyone, have gotten much of the GOP, including its leading presidential candidates, to replay the anti-immigrant wedge strategy that former California Governor Pete Wilson deployed in his 1994 re-election campaign, when he supported an initiative to deny most services, including schooling, to undocumented immigrants. But other Republicans are tearing their hair. "Some in the party seem pleased," said former Bush speechwriter Michael Gerson. "They should be terrified."

What Gerson and other savvy Republicans know is that in California, Wilson's party paid a fearful price. Feeling vulnerable as aliens, a million California Latinos became citizens and, in the vast majority of cases, registered as Democrats in the years after 1994. Republicans have won little in California since. Something similar seems likely to happen nationally. At the same time, it is an unfortunate reality that, as Harvard economist Alberto Alesina and others have argued, the greater the ethnic diversity in a jurisdiction -- and the larger the number of undocumented immigrants -- the more reluctant are voters, who are still overwhelmingly non-Hispanic whites, to tax themselves for public services that they see going to "others."

Nonetheless, given the nation's high rate of demographic change and the rapidly growing proportion of Latino voters that will come with it, the GOP strategy is a bet on the past (and, perhaps, the present), not the future. Karl Rove and George Bush understood the stakes and, in pushing for reform that included a path to legalization and thus drew Hispanic voters, tried to put their chips on the other square. But after the immigration bill failed, the White House switched sides, cranking up its roundups and coming out against the DREAM Act. Meanwhile, the GOP presidential candidates seem certain that within the horizon of this election -- or at least the primaries -- illegal immigration, touching on all manner of economic and cultural anxieties, may be the best issue they have. And Democrats like Hillary Clinton are running for cover.

There are some 12 million undocumented immigrants in this country, many in mixed families that include citizens -- including US-born children -- and other legal residents. The history of the past two decades indicates, according to most research, that rather than holding down the undocumented population, tougher border enforcement -- more Border Patrol agents, more walls, more electronic sensors -- has dramatically increased it. As enforcement made it ever more dangerous and expensive to cross the Mexican border, many workers who once shuttled back and forth chose to remain in the United States and send for their families.

In the long run, argues Robert Pastor, director of the Center for North American Studies at American University, the most promising strategy depends on major investments in the Mexican economy and infrastructure (which would probably require basic political and economic reforms) and the creation of better opportunities there. In addition, the larger picture will be dramatically affected by two significant demographic trends: first, the sharply declining Mexican birthrate -- down from 6.8 babies per woman in 1970 to 2.4 today -- and the predicted concomitant decline in Mexico's surplus labor force; second, the millions of skilled US boomers retiring in the next decade. If voters begin to understand that sustaining and growing the US economy and securing the retirements of those boomers will depend in large part on the labor and skills of immigrants -- and that there is no one else -- the issue may fade as quickly as it arose. What's certain is that the faster the illegal immigrants who are already here can emerge from the shadows, the faster they can be trained to do those jobs. In another generation Americans may wish for more immigrant workers, not fewer.

At that point the nation may look back on this period as another of those eras, like the Red Scare of the 1920s or the McCarthy years of the '50s, when the nation became unhinged; politicians panicked; and scattershot federal, state and local assaults led to unfocused, and often cruel, harassment. It may be seen in retrospect as a desperate rearguard attempt to freeze Anglo-white places and power in a mythic past. But today's policy vacuum also stems from our collective uncertainty. A new society with new kinds of people and new voters is rapidly growing under and around us -- just as it grew under our great-grandparents a century ago. Many of us still have no idea how to deal with it. At a time when other economic and social certainties are evaporating, and when income gaps are growing obscenely, demagogues have room to play. If there's a recession, the backlash against not only illegal immigrants but all immigrants could get worse before it gets better. The hope is that the nation will somehow choose leaders committed to cooling those tensions, not fueling them.
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Christ on a Bicycle
Posted by: apophenia_monkey on Dec 29, 2007 1:53 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
another bleedin' heart who wants to redefine the debate by controlling the language.

dude, NO ONE is concerned about LEGAL immigrants being here--couching the emotional plea by lumping illegal and legal immigrants together is just weak.

call a spade a spade--illegal means get the hell out, get in line, and don't disrespect the folks who got in line and followed the ungawdly paperwork ot get in. paperwork and bureaucracy created by one your heros (i'm sure), ted kennedy, and made worse by every administration since he ram rodded the reform act through in the 60s.

feh. odds are, every time health care comes up, you're right up there with the choir singing high praises how the "civilisied" europeans do things. but gawd forbid you take those blinders off and look how those same countries curtail their immigration.

damn, sucks to be a hypocrite eh peter?

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Peter Schrag Unhinged
Posted by: wandagb on Dec 29, 2007 2:28 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Peter Schrag gives us a propaganda piece to attack thosse opposed to the flood of illegal immigration. To his way of thinking illegal immigration is good, those opposed are merely conjuring up the Red Scare and resistance is futile.
Shrag repeats the usual underestimate of 12 million illegals, but best evidence from scholars indicates 20 to 30 million.
Of course Shrag won't touch how the U.S. will reduce greenhouse gases, lower energy consumption and preserve a square foot of open space in the face of runaway population growth from immigration: the U.S. Census Bureau projects ONE BILLION people here by 2090 if Shrag and company prevail.
A sane public policy is one that penalizes illegal immigration. Accomodation is national suicide.

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The Practical Problem
Posted by: thornwolf on Dec 29, 2007 2:56 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Riverside...repealed its anti-illegal-immigrant ordinance after the resulting exodus...hit...local businesses...and left a growing number of boarded-up...storefronts."

That little gem of truth illustrates the larger problem:

Let's say the 20-million undocumented alien estimate is correct. With 300 million people living in the US, 20 million represents over 6% of the US population. Because these people are consumers, kicking them out (if it were possible to do so) would contract the US economy by that amount -- 6+%. That's a serious drop in economic output, which would be much worse than a mere recession.

Some other solution has to be devised. I'm not sure what that may be, but mass deportation is not it.

Congress is largely to blame, possibly entirely to blame, for the current illegal immigration mess. In multiple instances, when the (formerly named) INS busted companies employing illegal immigrants (onion farms in Georgia and meat packing plants in the midwest) the corporations called on their congressional representatives and their senators to whine and cry. The predictable outcome is that the INS was told to back off, and the INS's regional honchos who had mounted the raids were reassigned and transferred (one of them quit in disgust).

There you have it. Corporations get what they want in the US Corporatocracy. Congress doesn't really want to do anything about illegal immigration as long as corporations want it the way it is, and only Congress could do something about it.

And don't forget that 6% figure. Contracting the US economy by 6% would affect each and every one of us, right where it hurts.

Anyone have a non-emotionally-charged solution to propose?

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Immigration is getting stricter but why ?
Posted by: hungarian33 on Dec 29, 2007 3:39 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I heard somethin glike, Latinos make up like 40% of illegal immigration for the U.S. . Otherwise, I heard thousands of people just fly to the u.s. dont have a U.S. passport, and just stay there until they die. for the rest of their lives.
I put it up on my blog as well, www.opentopix.com

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Politics of Hate
Posted by: SBK on Dec 29, 2007 5:09 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh here we go again. We always have to have an enemy don't we, and when we do, how is it that corporations benefit? How much is "border security" costing us? I'm sorry militia guys; did you want to work as hospital janitors or as meat packers? Look, this nation was founded on "illegal" immigration--from the first landing of the Europeans and the slaves they brought with them. Long after white people stole Northern Mexico, we proceeded with murderous tactics in the 80s and 90s destroying the economies of Mexico and Central America with the wars and free trade agreements we paid for. What the hell do you expect these people to do when US policies have dropped the prices of their exports and left them with nothing but desperately low wage jobs? Cleaning your hotel is better than starving in San Salvador. But then, it's easier to hate and spew racist garbage than to think about the real policy issues isn't it? Peter Schrag provides some solid analysis, read the article again deeper this time!

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otto
Posted by: otto on Dec 29, 2007 5:15 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article does a great job of showing the comlexity of the issue. I'd like to add a few details.
I now have dual citizenship - U.S. and Canadian (although the U.S. doesn't recognize my Canadian citizenship). I grew up in Detroit, where we almost didn't recognize a border and went to Windsor regularly to play hockey, shop, etc. Many on both sides crossed over to work each day. In this context borders seem artificial.
There are towns where the border passes through
bars and restaurants. People share the same issues.
My Church in Detroit became the Detroit-Windsor Refugee Coalition in the 80's, because U.S. policies in El Salvador made it unsafe for many to live. Salvadorians who came were illegal, but we worked with Canadians who accepted them legally because of their endangered situations. We practiced the Church-Sanctuary movement of the Middle Ages.
And what of all the Hispanics in Southwest states, whose land we stole over a century ago.
We resented them for speaking their Native language. What of Natives in both the U.S. and Canada, whose treaties have been broken continuously - leading the Lacota tribe to want to give up U.S. citizenship.
Finally, I went from high school to Toronto for 8 years of education. I had no papers, and nobody seemed to worry about citizenship (except Canadian students that we Americans riled with our "rah-rah" U.S. attitudes!). We freely went back and forth across borders. I lived in both countries a number of times over the years, eventually obtaining an official "landed immigrant" status, and years later citizenship. But I believe that the open attitude of Canadians did more for security than any laws, walls or fences could ever hope to accomplish.

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What's so bad about local action?
Posted by: war_on_tara on Dec 29, 2007 5:42 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Articles like this one always seem so appalled by action taken at the local level, or even at the state level - WHEN the actions run contrary to the let-'em-all-in agenda.

But this story notes the irony of the Littleton immigration integration initiative being in Tom Tancredo's district. There's more irony to it than that, because it's one of those (gasp) local actions.

The argument (such as it is) seems to be that no locality should do anything at all until Congress acts. When Congress does act, logically they're going to act with a crackdown. When they tried to act last spring, the public shot the proposal down as too lenient, but people like the author insisted on ignoring public opinion and continued to shoot it down as too strict! So now they can pretend to complain that Congress won't act. Most of the "immigration advocates" have a hard time denying that what they really want done is... nothing, now or ever.

Even this story gives two examples, from its own perspective, of local action it likes (Littleton, and Riverside NJ repealing its ordinance).

What's so bad about local action?

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There is value in abiding by the law that we liberals too often overlook.
Posted by: ThinkingHard on Dec 29, 2007 6:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I live in a midwestern state where my hometown, the site of an large meatpacking plant owned by a major international company, has radically changed my life and the life of our community . . . without our choice.

And, for all of my adult life, I have been known as a strong liberal; a progressive who has followed, supported, donated, and worked on behalf of many liberal, progressive candidates and causes.

But, we liberals and progressive have it wrong on illegal immigration. We liberals should not engage in just what we don't like about Rush Limbaugh, Lou Dobbs, and others; and throw out other epithets like "nativist," "mcarthyism," and us "rascist" midwesterners {for example} who, according to this author, probably never saw a brown face or heard spanish until the awful "illegal immigrants" came to town looking for work that we Amercians just won't too because it is beneath us.

Here are some thoughts:

1. In the midwestern states of Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas; we have seen dramatic increases in immigrants, many illegal, to meat slaughter and packing houses. And, these are jobs that we legal midwesterners did take and would do, but really have no opportunity now because the unions have been broken and the real wages at these plants is consistent with 1970 levels, and working conditions are worse. At the plant in my home town; where my cousin and several of my friends worked and supported a comfortable middle-class lifestyle; the workforce is largely illegal immigrants who all speak spanish and many of whom do live in what appear to be "company-housing" mobile homes and apartments. So, who is the "nativist" to assume and say that things are so gosh-awful bad in Mexico that these workers just have it so much better here. I do not contest that things are better or worse in Mexico. I do not know for sure. What I do know is that it seems "nativist" to me to assume that we are helping folks to bring them out of Mexico, for example, an put them in slaughter and packing facilities that are what Sinclair Lewis wrote about, and which have taken away real job opportunities for real midwestern Americans, who did, and would perform those jobs at fair wages; instead of the depressed wages which are the direct result of illegal immigration.

2. While I do believe the misguided, corrupt, and greedy trade policies brought about by recent administrations (including our very own Bill Clinton) has resulted in economic turmoil, that does not lead to the conclusion that illegal immigration is ok. It is simply a non sequitur.

3. Continuing illegality has its own corrupting effect on society. The author writes "If your name is Hernandez and you speak little English, can you risk reporting a crime to the local cops without being turned over to Immigration and Customs Enforcement?" And which crime might that be? The crime of coming to the United States illegally and working illegally? Sure, I understand his point; which is that living in the shadows of some "in between" status causes a breakdown of normal civic activity and civic virtues, like reporting crimes to the police. But, while you would ask civic virtue of an immigrant, or undocumented worker, or whatever to report a traffic violation or a crime, you would not ask them to follow the law about being in the United States and staying here legally? We may be plain folks out here in the midwest (or so you may thing) but that sort of mush just doesn't fly for conservatives or liberals.



And, before you get too sappy over the living conditions in Mexico, come on over to a meat packing town in the midwest, and talk with some of these immigrants who do live in crowded and depressing conditions.

We liberals need to do better than this.

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» You hit the nail on the head! Posted by: zooeyhall

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» RE: Mexicans are to me what Posted by: Lauren
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Closing the Borders is an old theme
Posted by: pbziegler on Dec 29, 2007 7:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Watched a film last night--From the Villa--which took place in Italy during the rise of Fascism. I was fascinated to see and hear the character playing the Italian police chief talk about how Italy had to rid itself of immigrants who were coming into Italy fleeing the Nazis in Germany, Austria and Poland. The speech he gave sounded so much like the ragings of the Republican candidates and the right-wing talking heads. It amazes me that these American fascists can sound so much like the European fascists of the 30's and not notice the similarity of the rhetoric.

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» RE: Closing the Borders is an old theme Posted by: single-serving poster
» Not to be picky, but "always"? Posted by: single-serving poster
» Preposterous! Posted by: zooeyhall
» RE: Preposterous! Posted by: Joshua Holland

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Questions
Posted by: Southern Gal on Dec 29, 2007 7:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who benefits from illegal immigration?

What are the financial costs of illegal immigration both locally and nationally?

What are the impacts on local and national infrastructures from the influx of illegal immigrants?

What are the impacts on the environment and natural resources of increases in population due to illegal immigration?

What responsibilities does the United States have to people who enter this country illegally?

How does this country humanely deal with the 20 plus million illegal immigrants already here?

Are there other countries that have policies addressing illegal immigration that the United States could use as models?

How important is the issue of illegal immigration in the elections of 2008?

What voice does the public have in the issues of illegal immigration?

If the national government is not willing or able to address the issues of illegal immigration, should local governments be able to address these issues through policies and legistlation developed on the local level?

Are the issues of illegal immigration better served on the national level by waiting until after the 2008 national elections to engage in development of policies based on real information and objectives that address the complexities and impacts of illegal immigration on people and resources of the United States?

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Brilliant, but misses the opening for fascism
Posted by: citizenjoe on Dec 29, 2007 8:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Superb discussion of immigration. I would add to it a discussion of a much greater political threat today than Peter Schrag perceives. Today we are faced with an authoritarian govt far more aggressive and imperial than any since before WWII. The USA has always had problems of assimilation, partly because assimilation involves rigorous and nasty subordination of those being assimilated. By an large, equality does not come to new members of society for many generations. The regime in power today is exploiting these problems with its devastatingly effective "war on terror". Their idea is to instill fear of all foreigners, especially those of the Middle East. With this ideology, the Bush regime is destroying the civil liberties of all citizens. It is dismantling our very republic. It was fear of the foreigner which fueled the Nazi's. Its is fear of the "inferior other" weakening our nation internally and externally that supports authoritarianism; it breeds the politics of fascism. This Peter Schrag does not perceive.--- Joe

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» I normally have 5 ratings Posted by: citizenjoe
» Yeah, I called this way back. Posted by: supercrisp

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The Term is Deviance Scare
Posted by: Gravitas on Dec 29, 2007 8:36 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The term we sociologists use is "deviance scare." A sociologist named Kai Erikson did an excellent job explaining the witch hunts using this concept. Norms, beliefs, ideology are what hold society together. When a society experiences rapid change, norms break down and society is in danger of falling apart. Durkheim called it anomie! To achieve temporary unity, society rallies around a "deviant" until the threat has past. Here is how I explain it to my classes. You can be fighting cats and dogs with your boy/girl friend, parent, brother, but what happens when an outsider comes and criticizes them? Bam, you are like glue with your loved one and the outsider becomes the new "enemy." Same dynamics in a deviance scare.

The problem is, when we are in one, whatever group we are picking on truly seems to be the problem. We can recognize a witchunt or McCarthism in restrospect, after the times have changed. But we can't recognize ourselves in those people when we are involved. Part of my master's project included weight obsession as a type of nutritional McCarthism. Women are more afraid of fat than nuclear war. Yet, it is even harder to convince sociey of its irrationality than immigration. Another hallmark of a deviance scare is that credible institutions are involved, like medicine or government. They provide legitimacy to the hysteria.

On the other hand, just because a deviance scare is occuring, does not mean there are no legitimate concerns. Certainly, it was reasonable to have some fear of communists during the cold war. Certainly, alcohol does pose some problems. (Prohibition.) Many people say we can't have totally open borders, and immigration has histoically been used by the power-elite to drive down the cost of labor. The issue is addressing the situation rationally and humanely vs losing all perspective and demonizing a group to the point we can no longer see them as human. I have long said that a popular prejudice in times or rapid change is as dangerous as a match in a parched forest. We as a society need to be more aware of this phemonena so we can stop repeating the mistakes of history.

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I'm still waiting for Spanish lessons for adults on prime time TV
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Dec 29, 2007 8:45 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm still waiting for Spanish lessons for English only speaking adults on prime time TV

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» TARA- ha ha ha ha ha ha.... Posted by: veggiegrrrl

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Who's Country?
Posted by: Carson on Dec 29, 2007 9:02 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The corporations and their economy's are doing fine.

The, "We the People's" economy's are being gutted by the criminals in businesses illegal labor.

Our faith in our government is at an all time low. Is it our government anymore?

In the sixties they came into our schools and brainwashed us with the concept that there wasn't enough room for us to have children. The said they would be unwanted. They launched, Family Planning, Birth Control pills, and Zero Population Growth. At the same time the Revolutionaries in the government were propping open the floodgates for their illegal invasion.

Anything and everything for the criminals in business. It is a worldwide rip-off!

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» Vote for Mike Huckabee!!! Posted by: sausage
» RE: Who's Country? Posted by: Sparks56

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The coming revolution
Posted by: kevtop on Dec 29, 2007 9:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Peter Schrag and his loonies on the far left are so full of BS; equating McCarthyism with illegal immigration. I personally know many people who lost their jobs to illegal immigrants working for so called private contractors. American families who were making a decent middle class living with full benefits were all of a sudden gathered together and told by their company's HR dept. that their service was no longer required. This shit happens all over this country and you people have the gaull to compare Americans who want justice to McCarthyism. Where is your liberal compassion for your fellow American worker, who themselves have to worry about losing jobs to cheap f.....g illegal border crosser's ? You don't know what the hell your talking about. Your on the wrong side of the issue and you don't even realize it. Bush's and the corporatist have been selling out the middle class for years;sending millions of factory jobs to Communist China. It's a double whammy for the poor American worker who now has to worry about losing his or her job to insourcing. Again you people are in on the killing of the American middle class worker. I hope your satisfied. Bad Comma is coming at you!

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Uproar about illegal immigaration=Distraction
Posted by: kirkmuse on Dec 29, 2007 9:26 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have had illegal immigrants coming across the Mexican border for well over 40 years. So why all of the uproar now? Distraction.

The GOP certainly doesn't want to talk about our invasion and endless occupation of Iraq. The GOP certainly doesn't want to talk about our skyrocketing budget deficits, which
are leading to our nation's bankruptcy.

And the GOP certainly doesn't want to talk about our good-paying jobs that are being 'outsourced' while the corporate CEO's
are making astronomical salaries.

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Claptrap
Posted by: Bettybb on Dec 29, 2007 9:37 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This writer has not a clue about the real issues facing this country with respect to illegal immigration.

1. The rule of law. Yep. That means one law for everyone, applied equally. That means if you break the law you get hit with the penalty. That means there is only one way to enter the USA, that is legally.

2. Cost. If all illegals were given amnesty, in 20 years there would be a 2.5 trillion unfunded entitlement. Want to triple the taxes you are paying right now? It still won't be enough.

According to the economists, a country must select the best and brightest as immigrants as they add more to the economy than they take out. Then you can have some low skllled workers who will be carried for a generation until they get high school diplomas. Otherwise you bankrupt your country.

Unfortunately per the Pew Hispanic Center study, Hispanics are taking 4 generations to reach the high school diploma stage, versus the standard 1 generation for other immigrants. They are equally capable, it seems it is a cultural problem (which of course would not exist if the assimilated).

3. Discrimination. With illegals being primarily Hispanic, any amnesty gives HIspanic
Americans PREFERENCE over other Americans in terms of numbers and timing of family reunification. That violates the anti discrimination clause and the equal protection clause of our Constituiton.

4. Amnesty = more amnesty. Americans protested in 1986 saying that if you gave amnesty all that would happen is that even more would come in and wait for the next one. Guess what? If there is another amnesty, the waves of new illegals are on their way.

5. Illegals take jobs, depress wages of Americans.

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» Racism Posted by: YogiBear

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Ridiculous comparison
Posted by: zooeyhall on Dec 29, 2007 9:56 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comparing working-class concerns over a mass influx of illegal aliens and economic refugees, to the McCarthyism and anti-communism of the 50's is ridiculous.

It is a SOCIAL and ECONOMIC issue.

Another old saw from the pro-illegal immigration types is that: if you oppose it you are racist.

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This is the best wedge issue ever!
Posted by: sausage on Dec 29, 2007 10:36 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wonder who first woke Lou Dobbs to the "illegal" immigrants issue? I mean he's kissed corporate America's butt of for years now and I for one don't expect him to change anytime soon. Cui bono from low wage, immigrant labor?

I wonder who put the bug in Mike Huckabee's ear that if the United States hadn't aborted 30-45 million babies since 1973, we have all the native-born, low wage workers we need?

I wonder how many posters here at Alternet.org--or any other Web site that takes up a reasonable discussion of "illegal" immigration--really know and can quote the "laws" the "illegals" are breaking?

I wonder how many times in this topic thread we're going to read something like, "My great-great-grandparents came through Ellis Island..."yaddy-yaddy-yadda.

I wonder how many posters who quack up a storm about how "illegal" immigrants are taking American jobs have ever worked as a hotel/motel domestic, washed dishes in a restaurant, worked as heavy construction laborer or on the kill-floor of a meat packing plant? And not as a summer job at college. ( I'm going to think you're lying anyway, so don't bother.)

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» Can't quote the laws... Posted by: mjabele

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500k Mexicanos Will Trek North in '08
Posted by: DigitalAztec on Dec 29, 2007 10:59 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
500,000 Mexicanos are expected to make the long dangerous trek north to El Norte next year. They will come for the same reason my grandparents came during the great depression. They will come because they will be hungry and because they will want to eat. They will come to work and they will bring their own version of the American dream - a better future for their children.

READ MORE

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» PEW is wrong Posted by: DigitalAztec
» RE: PEW is wrong Posted by: Joshua Holland

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If you can hike the Sonoran desert, you deserve to be a U.S. citizen
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Dec 29, 2007 11:49 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Right? Isn't that just the kind of ethic we want to support in this country? Hard work, dedication and determination - aren't those the "true American values" we try and teach our children?

All these people who froth at the mouth over the immigration issue should put their efforts into repealing NAFTA and ending the economic warfare against poor Mexicans and Central Americans. These people are best understood as economic refugees from the U.S. sponsored trade wars.

Let's say the situation was reversed - you could make $100 a day in the U.S., but if you snuck into Mexico you could get a $1000 a day job. Then, due to Mexican interference in the U.S. economy, your wages are dropped to $50 a day - and your family goes hungry. Wouldn't you cross the border if that meant you could feed your family?

However, the Republicans don't really give a damn about immigration. In fact, they like it - it provides agribusiness and meatpacking and manufacturing with a cheap, union-free labor force that they use to drive wages down across the board. You think ADM or Cargill or their ilk want to pay higher wages to U.S. citizens? Do you think that the banks and funds that control ADM want to see their profits decline due to wage increases?

No, the whole Republican agenda on immigration is the same as Pete Wilson's in California in the 90s - race-baiting and the politics of fear and hate. Worked for Hitler, didn't it?

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» What's your point? Posted by: war_on_tara
» Totally untrue -- myths of immigration Posted by: Joshua Holland

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Come on...
Posted by: Pirate1 on Dec 29, 2007 12:51 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's funny how people are about letting new people come in. Our own good Christian ancestors just had to come here and clear the "savages" from the land and it was "their land" all of a sudden. Since then, successive waves of people all have had to deal with these former immigrants who considered themselves the "rightful' inhabitants didn't want to let go of what they had basically stolen from the Native Americans. And later from what was very much Mexico.
All these toxic ideas of "right" are debilitating, blinding and stultifying.
The Mexicans coming into the southwest are in a plight not much different that of the Kurds or Palestinians. More than half of what was once Mexico ( modern day California, Nevada, Utah, New Mexico, Arizona, Texas, etc) was declared to be another country in which they had no rights.

I wonder what old "Christ on a Bicycle" at the top here would do if wherever he lives were, at the behest of some governmental machinations, declared to be part of another country and he no longer had a right to all he and his people had built there for generations before?

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we killed, raped, and stole fair 'n square -NOW GET IN LINE!
Posted by: tecpatl on Dec 29, 2007 12:52 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THAT should be the title of most of these posts. Most of these so-called Americans that have posted these vicious anti-immigrant diatribes really have no sense of our own history. Where did the land that most Americans live on come from? Who was killed in order to get it? Most Euro-Americans descend from people that did NOT get in line. In fact, the people in line ahead of them were killed or thrown into concentration camps called "reservations". I acknowledge that there is an immigration problem but the solution is NOT to try to kick all these HUMAN BEINGS out. The solution is to allow most of these people to be given a chance to become citizens. I suspect that many of these vicious anti-immigrant comments are made by so-called "religious" people that consider themselves "good" Americans. Seriously, they should look into their hearts and ask what would Jesus do. Either they find some empathy in their hearts or they must admit that they are no different from the Euro-Americans that went on a genocidal killing spree to expand this nation. Also, they might want to tear down the Statue of Liberty and all it stands for. I descend from immigrants. I support immigrants. I will fight for them.

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otto
Posted by: otto on Dec 29, 2007 1:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Josh always sounds as if he knows what he's talking about...I believe he does.

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KALKI
Posted by: SOWILO on Dec 29, 2007 1:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where is Kalki when we need him.

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DONE.
Posted by: SOWILO on Dec 29, 2007 2:09 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In order to build sustainable environmental living, high standards of European education, women's rights, gay rights, etc. We need to abandon all legal and illegal immigration into all Western countries from the third world.

1. The third worlders are religiously intolerant. They are not helping the problems we have here with the Christianity amongst anglo-americans. Multiculturalism as an ideology forbids the mocking of organized religion. If we have to tolerate the religious views of Third Worlders, we have to tolerate Mike Huckabee. That to me is madness and is accelerating the decline of the West.

2. The third worlders believe that all Western culture is oppressive, yet THEY abuse women.

3. Multiculturalism has created a society that is so PC that nothing gets accomplished in education.

I am tired of this. I live in LOS ANGELES. Things have become unbearable here due to multiculturalism and immigration- nothing gets accomplished, everyone is PC'd into mush.

Also, I am getting tired of the notion that we "owe something" to the Native Americans. Read the book "Our Hearts Fell To the Ground: The Loss of the West in the words of the Native Americans."

They had a culture where war was sacred. When they met a formidable adversary, they lost and have been crying about it since.

We need to demand excellence out of all ethnic communities in the United States and they need to assimilate into the ideals of the Enlightenment of Western culture. All of them.

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» RE: DONE. Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» RE: DONE. Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: Pithy helmet Posted by: Geolager
» RE: What kind of hats do they wear now? Posted by: Joshua Holland

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Mirror moment
Posted by: YogiBear on Dec 29, 2007 2:49 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As the anti-immigrant zealots fan a generalized hysteria

Oddly enough Peter, most of the hysteria I see on this issue comes from the likes of you. Liberals are supposed to be both provocative and thoughtful, but on this issue they resemble the Mcarthys and Limbaughs more than anyone. Wake up and smell the hatred you're spewing.

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» RE: Mirror moment Posted by: SOWILO
» RE: Mirror moment Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Mirror moment Posted by: YogiBear

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I'm from Los Angeles Too
Posted by: DigitalAztec on Dec 29, 2007 3:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
L.A. is a great city. BILLIONS of $$ are traded here everyday.

We don't have an NBA team but short of that, this place rocks!

Hasta Pronto LoL

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» We have a secret taco Posted by: DigitalAztec
» RE: I'm from Los Angeles Too Posted by: anonymous black writer
» and he even got that wrong! Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: and he even got that wrong! Posted by: aonghus36

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.

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My wife and I have stopped eating at restaurants in LA.
Posted by: SOWILO on Dec 29, 2007 3:38 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are both working class and cook organic whole foods at home. We live on a small budget.

I have turned against consumer society because they do not have people's best interests in mind.

In restaurants in LA, you have a high chance of getting food poisoning because the kitchen help hasn't the habitual custom of hand-washing that is necessary to prevent food-borne illness in todays over-populated world.

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The NAFTA superhighway
Posted by: luzmejor on Dec 29, 2007 4:36 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Stopping individuals and families at the border with a big ugly fence is good because terrorists might bring in bombs and illegals?

Likewise, building a huge highway to bring in many thousands of truckers (and the many related crime problems, including illegals and smuggling) is just peachy and brings in "free" trade?

I suggest that if we are so afraid of people arriving from Mexico, then we had better just stop all trade between our borders and other nations.

In my opinion, free trade means that everyone can pass freely. The current laws are restricting only the common people's rights to travel as usual.

What a farce!

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» Except there is no NAFTA superhighway Posted by: Joshua Holland
» gosh josh Posted by: darkhorse
» RE: gosh josh Posted by: Joshua Holland
» It's not that simple.... Posted by: Smartcookie

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a book and a film or two...
Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Dec 29, 2007 5:08 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
a book and film:
Fast Food Nation by Eric Schlosser

Paperback: 416 pages
Publisher: Harper Perennial (July 5, 2005)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0060838582
ISBN-13: 978-0060838584

this book was recently made into a film, however i have not seen it, so i don't know what parts of the book it included/excluded...

the other film:
A Day without a Mexican


ultimately illegal immigration will continue as long as corporate america wants it to...blaming the immigrants themselves is really pointing blame at the wrong people.

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OH SHIAAT!!
Posted by: DigitalAztec on Dec 29, 2007 7:50 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You are so right!!!

hahahaha

How did I ever make that BIG mistatement???

Well, I stand corrected :)

Heck, we have 2 NBA teams LooL!

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Illegal Immigrants Are Trying to Escape Poverty, The "War on Drugs" Military Approach Will Not Work
Posted by: sofla100 on Dec 29, 2007 7:52 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To get to the root of the problem, we have to examine who is coming illegally to the USA and why. Fact is, NOBODY comes illegally to the USA from Western Europe or Canada. Understandable, as many of these countries actually have a higher standard of living then the USA. The illegal immigrants are virtually all coming from the poorer countries of South and Central America. And, it is obvious why they are coming, to escape the poverty and economic disasters in their own countries. Therefore, it is only a patchwork solution to talk about building great big fences, more guards, more guns, more enforcement. This is just like the USA "war on drugs" approach. And, we all know how effective that has been. I don't know about you, but I really don't want any more Homeland Security jack booted enforcers checking everyones ID and hauling off screaming women and chldren. No, a better approach is that the USA has to improve the living standards of South and Central America. For example, just lifting Mexico a little bit would cause 90% of those coming illegally from her to stay home. How does the USA do this. Will first, if we had not spent $1 trillion dollars on the stupid war in Iraq we could have spent a few hundred million to build up the infrastructure of Mexico, her schools, hospitals, and roads. We could have helped her with grants and loans to small businesses (not the IMF and World Bank corporate greed loans but real help to the poor). Bottom line, we could have done a lot. And, then the problem goes away. Just like it does not exist for the USA with countries that are developed. Isn't this better then more guns, more fences, more prisons and more Homeland Security jackboots on our streets?

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DONE WITH ALTERNET
Posted by: SOWILO on Dec 29, 2007 8:42 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You failed with removing that piece from VDARE.

If we can't be honest with the issue, why bother?

Both Left and Right are crazy.

America is finished. We need to prepare to pick up the pieces.

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» What piece from VDare? Posted by: DigitalAztec
» RE: What piece from VDare? Posted by: yellow

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There is a difference between legal immigrants and those who enter illegally!
Posted by: Intellect on Dec 29, 2007 9:02 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I see nothing wrong with legal immigration, and our laws and policies need to be modernized to accommodate the legal entry of as many immigrants as our country needs - and we do indeed need them, and will need more and more as time passes.

With baby boomers retiring we need taxpaying workers to pay into the Social Security fund to pay for Social Security benefits to those of us who are retiring and to replace our retiring workers in our workforce.

What we need to do first though is to control our borders!
A country that cannot control its borders is a target for terrorism as well as illegal immigration. After that is accomplished we need comprehensive laws to address those already here illegally - to give those who are obeying the rest of our laws a way to become legal. At the same time criminals among them - gang members, etc, must be addressed. We do not need the drive-by shootings and other criminal activities perpetrated by the small percentage of illegal immigrants already here - deport those who are involved in criminal acts and deny all criminals entry.

"Virginia has prohibited the sale of automatic weapons to illegal aliens"

WTF is wrong with that? There is no reason for illegal immigrants to have guns!

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Harping again
Posted by: compu on Dec 30, 2007 4:32 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When Limbaugh,and the rest hate mongers succeed
and unleash armed mobs on the aliens,and then
masacres take place,a reaction from their home
countries will occur.What is US without those
countries raw materiels ?
Japan,Germany and others countries will be more than happy to replace America as a source of goods,are not our trade rivals ?
Pat Buchanan did long ago debunk the canary
of the caliphate.The 9-11 attacks came about
US intervention in muslims affairs.
US risk made more than 500 millions more enemies
in latinamerica,on top of the 1 billion in the
islamic world,that will happen when video cameras start showing up atrocities accross America on the hispanic immigrants.

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Free College Education for Illegals
Posted by: Mel H. on Dec 30, 2007 10:16 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A year ago when I was doing searches for college financial aid I saw websites that say that New York State is giving free college educations to illegal immigrants in the SUNY colleges (State University of NY colleges.) When these illegal immigrants become educated, they will be able to do more of our jobs for less pay.

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» RE: Free College Education for Illegals Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Free College Education for Illegals Posted by: Joshua Holland

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Kind Of Ironic, Isn't It
Posted by: bcgirl125 on Dec 30, 2007 11:55 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
American progressives, fearing for the health of the environment, dutifully heed the instructions of the Zero Population Growth movement to have fewer kids. Then big corporations, finding they have less cheap labor to abuse, influence the government to open the borders to import more bodies, and so the population swells to an environmentally unsupportable size anyways. And then progressives support this! Am I the only one who finds this very strange?

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» Not really Posted by: Joshua Holland
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What's the point of being a first-class citizen...
Posted by: matcha on Dec 30, 2007 12:21 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is something in the current wave of anti-immigrant sentiment reminiscent of Colin Powell's remark that letting gays serve openly in the military would "demoralize the troops." Getting ahead's not in the cards anymore. If we couldn't bash the immigrants, where would that leave us?

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delta15
Posted by: 15delta on Dec 30, 2007 12:42 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have a great idea.
Make Mexico a state as we did for Hawaii and Alaska and send Tankrato-Hunter and the Arizona six shooter (Sheriff) the hell out of this country or is his name Grumpy? Anyway through them the hell out of this country and let's get a President with at least an 8th grade education in office
And let's get a real president in office and run this disgrace out, NOW!
Before he waves at you.

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This is Mexico's Immigration Law- Those who think ours is too strict would weep
Posted by: Geolager on Dec 30, 2007 1:32 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mexico has a single, streamlined law, seeking to ensure that foreign visitors and immigrants are legally in the nation and not burdens on society to name a few.

The Mexican constitution strictly defines the rights of citizens, and the denial of many rights to non-citizens.
The General Law on Population is the toughest on the continent. If a felony is a crime punishable by more than a year in prison, Mexican law makes it a felony to be an illegal alien in Mexico.
Mexico's main immigration law welcomes only foreigners deemed useful to Mexican society:

_ Foreigners are admitted into Mexico "according to their possibilities of contributing to national progress." (Article 32)

_ Immigration officials must "ensure (that) immigrants will be useful elements for the country and that they have the necessary funds for their sustenance" and that of their dependents. (Article 34)

_ Foreigners may be barred from the country if their presence has upset "the equilibrium of the national demographics," if they are deemed detrimental to "economic or national interests," if they are not good citizens in their own country, if they have broken Mexican laws, or if "they are not found to be physically or mentally healthy." (Article 37)

_ The secretary of governance may "suspend or prohibit the admission of foreigners when determined to be in the national interest." (Article 38)

Mexican authorities keep track of every person in the country:

_ Federal, local and municipal police must cooperate with federal immigration authorities : i.e., help in the arrest of illegal immigrants. (Article 73)

_ A National Population Registry tracks every "individual who comprises (sic) the population of the country," verifying each individual's identity. (Articles 85 and 86)

_ A national Catalogue of Foreigners tracks foreign tourists and immigrants (Article 87), assigning each a tracking number. (Article 91)

Foreigners with fake papers or who enter the country under false pretenses may be imprisoned:

_ Foreigners with fake immigration papers may be fined or imprisoned.

(Article 116)

_ Foreigners who sign government documents "with a signature that is false or different from that which he normally uses" are subject to fine and imprisonment. (Article 116)

Foreigners who fail to obey the rules will be fined, deported, and/or imprisoned as felons:

_ Foreigners who fail to obey a deportation order are punished. (Article 117)

_ Deported foreigners who try to re-enter Mexico without authorization can be imprisoned for up to 10 years. (Article 118)

_ Foreigners who violate terms of their visa may be sentenced for up to 6 years in prison. (Articles 119, 120, and 121) Foreigners who misrepresent terms of their visa (ie.working without a permit) can also be imprisoned.

Under Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony. The General Law on Population says:

_ "A penalty of up to two years in prison and a fine of 300 to 5,000 pesos will be imposed on foreigners entering the country illegally." (Article 123)

_ Foreigners with immigration problems may be deported, rather than imprisoned. (Article 125)

_ Foreigners who "(make attempts) against national sovereignty or security" will be deported. (Article 126)

Mexicans who help illegal aliens enter the country are considered criminals:

_ A Mexican who marries a foreigner with the sole objective of helping the foreigner live in the country is subject to up to 5 years in prison. (Article 127)

_ Shipping and airline companies that bring undocumented foreigners into Mexico will be fined. (Article 132)


Shall we use Mexico's law as a model?

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The End of a White America
Posted by: Democratic Socialist on Dec 30, 2007 2:24 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The hidden/taboo side of the 'immigration debate' that many of the politically correct idiots in the media very rarely mention is the massive demographic shift that is occuring in America -- slowly but surely, White/European America is being usurped in the country that THEY built.

Now, I am not a racist or a 'White nationalist' or a member of the KKK or anything like that, but as a half White/European American it does disturb me that America will not be a majority White/Europpean nation in another 50-100 years because of illegal immigrants and their excessive and irresponsible (3rd world) breeding patterns, broken borders, and bad U.S. government immigration policy which lets in millions of inassimilable people from around the world EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

It seems to me that in America many other ethnic groups are allowed to care about their ethnic heritage and contribution to American society, whether it is those of African descent, Hispanics/Latinos, Jews, Asians of all nationalities, etc. However, when Americans of White/European descent actually care about their ethnic interests as those other groups so often do they are accused of being racists or 'nativists.'

Why must America be eventually overrun by people from around the world (but mostly those from south of Texas who are here illegally) when White Europeans founded, settled, populated, and built America? Many bad things of course happened in the past (African slavery, elimination of Native Americans), but it still doesn't change the fact that Americans of White/European should have pride that their tough and resourceful ancestors explored, settled, populated (making a LOT of babies!), and ultimately built the great nation that America became. However, these White/European Americans SHOULD NOT be proud that now they are just letting it be taken over by people who just have more babies than them. It cannot be denied that as the White/European population has slipped in to decline in the United States, America as a whole has started to decline as well on so many levels, both domestically and internationally.

I'm not a fan of conservatives, but Pat Buchanan is one of the only strong (semi-mainstream) voices that has the courage to talk about this issue of ethnic and demographic shifts. In his newish book DAY OF RECONONG he writes: "And today, the American of John F. Kennedy, 89 percent white and 10 percent of African descent, an essentially biracial country united by a common culture, creed, history, and tradition, is gone. We threw it away. Today, America is twice as populous as in 1950--with 300 million people. Instead of 1 to 2 million Hispanics, there are 45 million, with 102 expected by 2050, concentrated in a Southwest that 58 percent of Mexicans say belongs to them. Our population is down to 67 percent European, and falling; 14.5 percent Hispanic and rising rapidly, 10 percent black and holding, and 4.5 percent Asian and rising. By 2040, Americans of European descent will be less than half of the population, when, as President Bill Clinton told and audience of cheering California students, we will all belong to minorities."

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» Note: proofreading is important Posted by: Democratic Socialist
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Trivia
Posted by: Gaubladt on Dec 30, 2007 2:45 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here in the Dallas Fort Worth area, I've been noticing the unmistakable specter of inter-racial animosity. Only, more than usual; more people are more prone to meanness when dealing with people of other races than just a few years ago, and for no apparent reason.
That is disturbing to me: Partly because I live in a racially mixed neighborhood. While, it seems impossible that my neighborhood could turn overnight into a cauldron like Baghdad now, or LA in the 1990's, L.A. and Baghdad didn't just happen overnight.
The rabid right wing attack dogs on the radio stations are helping to prime the forthcoming human tornado. And, I resent that.
From my perspective, Lou Dobbs and those clear com radio guys are all traitors.
As far as displacing native whites is concerned: It seems to me that as long as the Mexicans were doing all the back-breaking labor while the whites got to sit in the air-conditioned cabs of their back-hoes, the whites couldn't have cared less about immigration. But, now that's all changed.
My co-workers still make a distinction between Work and N-Work. I suspect that that is what this immigration thing is all about: Getting Euro-fannies back in the seats of those air-conditioned back-hoes.
There are other issues that nobody wants to talk about: If there are 30 million people who are to be rounded up and processed in concentration camps and then deported, at 10 thousand dollars per head, that's a lot of human misery, plus 300 billion dollars of our hard earned taxes, just to get some fat asses back in to the seats of their back-hoes.
Then we'll have 30 million very unhappy campers dumped into the welcome arms of Hugo Chavez and his Bolivarian Revolution. That would likely lead to the rapid and total collapse of the American Epoch. Now, right wing republican activists stand hand in hand with the anarchists, & confederates, trying to bring our great Pax Americana down into the dust.
A humane and decent solution to the immigration issue is really a matter of national security. Because, there are many ways this thing could turn real sour, real quick. For the Republican activists to capitalize on this issue, and stall any solutions in congress, may be great for them. But, what they do is not good for America. And, it could be hazardous for me personally.

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Individuals aren't the Problem
Posted by: macdon1 on Dec 30, 2007 3:16 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't agree with illegal immigration and it makes me angry too. Illegals definitely ARE depressing wages and taking jobs from Americans. That said, it is also true that conditions in Mexico are worse then ever after NAFTA and people are desperate to make a living. The small number of Mexican elites who have always hogged everything for themselves love being able to watch EL Migra defuse what might turn into a very ugly situation for them. Once they can get a North American Union, the elites of all three countries will be able to consolidate their power and "discipline" us all to the beaten down level of the exploited Mexican worker, while they live behind high walls in fabulous luxury. If you doubt what I am saying go South of the Border and take a look at the palatial homes of the rich with their huge fences,metal shutters and heavily armed security guards. It can and has happened here in the coal country. (read "Night Comes to the Cumberlands")That is what the North American Union will bring on a continental scale.

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Bob J
Posted by: skingk on Dec 30, 2007 6:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is nothing new, Teddy Roosevelt got it right in 1907:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/troosevelt.asp

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Government needs replacing
Posted by: Dietrich on Dec 30, 2007 8:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This government is electing a new people--an unprecedented move by a rogue government.

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Telethon For White People
Posted by: DigitalAztec on Dec 30, 2007 8:53 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You people really got it tough. I suggest you hold a telethon for yourselves. Then you can use the money you raise to "purchase" (LoL!!!) more land from Mexico.

Better yet, why don't you people build your wall at Panama.

You could save money building a shorter fence and use the canal as a moat.

But I guess getting stuck with all those mixed race mongrels kind of defeats the purpose.


I got it. Why don't you "Americans" (HAHAHAHAHA) "liberate" Canada?

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Not Just Meatpacking
Posted by: Arlene on Jan 2, 2008 9:02 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Illegal immigration has facilitated union busting not just in meatpacking, but also construction and allied industry, food and hospitality, and nursing and custodial care. There are partially disabled people like my nephew who stocks shelves in a big box retail store who could work but not at the wages being paid currently due to being displaced by illegals.

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How many people can the U.S. support?
Posted by: Libsrule on Jan 2, 2008 7:01 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This seems to be the question everyone who is an open borders and amnesty for refuse to think about?

Just how many people can the infrastructure of this country handle?

For the open border types and those who think anyone who wants to come here should be allowed to come here now, how many do you think this country could handle in the next...say....ten years?

Another 20 million?

Another 100 million?

Can you see what this country would become if we allowed another 50 million people here with no legal restrictions, who are uneducated, unskilled, a lot with health problems and very few if any speaking the language as well as the fact the majority no longer want to become Americans. They simply want the right to come and go across our borders and support their families and friends back in their native country, which is most predominantly Mexico?

Although illegals do contribute to the tax system, they are a net drain financially, even considering the taxes they contribute. There are simply too many of them. Further, they take jobs that should go to our own middle class and poorer citizens, and would if they were not here. Their presence depresses wages for all lower strata jobs and causes small businesses to lose business to those who hire the illegals and therefore can undercut their job bids. Many small construction and similar businesses are struggling because to compete successfully they would have to dump their current employees and hire illegals like their competition already has. Illegals are a huge drain on public health and education, consuming resources that should go to help legal citizens. Because I'm basically a liberal, I am against illegal immigration because the persons it hurts the most are the poorer classes, both illegals and our own needy citizens.

It would be great if America and society could still afford unlimited immigration, but those days are gone. Our natural resources are strained with the number of people we have NOW - adding a two million illegals per year will simply bring us to emergency that much sooner. What good will it have done us to let everyone in who wants to come, when by doing so we are insuring that our infrastructure, public services and water, electricity, etc., won't be able to handle it, leaving us all in want? Will people finally learn once the US turns into an overpopulated sinkhole where no one but the wealthy can survive? It is already predicted that rolling blackouts and brownouts are expected to be a regular occurrence starting in a few years, because of demand on the energy infrastructure and lack of natural resources - how much worse will it be when we are adding a million users per year that are illegals, in addition to the normal modes of population increase? We are already fighting over water supplies in the west and southwest. The old world is gone, and we have to make hard choices. We are no longer living in the 1800's or even early 1900’s where we welcomed and needed all we could get to come here.

Cesar Chavez was against illegal immigration. He even led marches to the Mexican border to protest illegals. He knew it would hurt those he was working hardest for; the poor legal immigrants who could not compete with illegals who will be willing to work for even less wages. He worked hard to get legal immigrants better rights in the fields.

We are digging our own graves with our misguided generosity. We are paying for a badly run war that is going beyond all normal reason and was started on false premises. We are paying for a poorly run Medicare system. We are paying for corporate welfare. And we are going to suffer if our infrastructure is allowed to stand in the deteriorating condition it is. We can no longer afford to welcome everyone who wants to come here. Sure, I wish it were different - but times have changed.

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Christ on a Bicycle
Posted by: apophenia_monkey on Dec 29, 2007 1:53 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
another bleedin' heart who wants to redefine the debate by controlling the language.

dude, NO ONE is concerned about LEGAL immigrants being here--couching the emotional plea by lumping illegal and legal immigrants together is just weak.

call a spade a spade--illegal means get the hell out, get in line, and don't disrespect the folks who got in line and followed the ungawdly paperwork ot get in. paperwork and bureaucracy created by one your heros (i'm sure), ted kennedy, and made worse by every administration since he ram rodded the reform act through in the 60s.

feh. odds are, every time health care comes up, you're right up there with the choir singing high praises how the "civilisied" europeans do things. but gawd forbid you take those blinders off and look how those same countries curtail their immigration.

damn, sucks to be a hypocrite eh peter?

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Peter Schrag Unhinged
Posted by: wandagb on Dec 29, 2007 2:28 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Peter Schrag gives us a propaganda piece to attack thosse opposed to the flood of illegal immigration. To his way of thinking illegal immigration is good, those opposed are merely conjuring up the Red Scare and resistance is futile.
Shrag repeats the usual underestimate of 12 million illegals, but best evidence from scholars indicates 20 to 30 million.
Of course Shrag won't touch how the U.S. will reduce greenhouse gases, lower energy consumption and preserve a square foot of open space in the face of runaway population growth from immigration: the U.S. Census Bureau projects ONE BILLION people here by 2090 if Shrag and company prevail.
A sane public policy is one that penalizes illegal immigration. Accomodation is national suicide.

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The Practical Problem
Posted by: thornwolf on Dec 29, 2007 2:56 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Riverside...repealed its anti-illegal-immigrant ordinance after the resulting exodus...hit...local businesses...and left a growing number of boarded-up...storefronts."

That little gem of truth illustrates the larger problem:

Let's say the 20-million undocumented alien estimate is correct. With 300 million people living in the US, 20 million represents over 6% of the US population. Because these people are consumers, kicking them out (if it were possible to do so) would contract the US economy by that amount -- 6+%. That's a serious drop in economic output, which would be much worse than a mere recession.

Some other solution has to be devised. I'm not sure what that may be, but mass deportation is not it.

Congress is largely to blame, possibly entirely to blame, for the current illegal immigration mess. In multiple instances, when the (formerly named) INS busted companies employing illegal immigrants (onion farms in Georgia and meat packing plants in the midwest) the corporations called on their congressional representatives and their senators to whine and cry. The predictable outcome is that the INS was told to back off, and the INS's regional honchos who had mounted the raids were reassigned and transferred (one of them quit in disgust).

There you have it. Corporations get what they want in the US Corporatocracy. Congress doesn't really want to do anything about illegal immigration as long as corporations want it the way it is, and only Congress could do something about it.

And don't forget that 6% figure. Contracting the US economy by 6% would affect each and every one of us, right where it hurts.

Anyone have a non-emotionally-charged solution to propose?

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Immigration is getting stricter but why ?
Posted by: hungarian33 on Dec 29, 2007 3:39 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I heard somethin glike, Latinos make up like 40% of illegal immigration for the U.S. . Otherwise, I heard thousands of people just fly to the u.s. dont have a U.S. passport, and just stay there until they die. for the rest of their lives.
I put it up on my blog as well, www.opentopix.com

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Politics of Hate
Posted by: SBK on Dec 29, 2007 5:09 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh here we go again. We always have to have an enemy don't we, and when we do, how is it that corporations benefit? How much is "border security" costing us? I'm sorry militia guys; did you want to work as hospital janitors or as meat packers? Look, this nation was founded on "illegal" immigration--from the first landing of the Europeans and the slaves they brought with them. Long after white people stole Northern Mexico, we proceeded with murderous tactics in the 80s and 90s destroying the economies of Mexico and Central America with the wars and free trade agreements we paid for. What the hell do you expect these people to do when US policies have dropped the prices of their exports and left them with nothing but desperately low wage jobs? Cleaning your hotel is better than starving in San Salvador. But then, it's easier to hate and spew racist garbage than to think about the real policy issues isn't it? Peter Schrag provides some solid analysis, read the article again deeper this time!

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otto
Posted by: otto on Dec 29, 2007 5:15 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article does a great job of showing the comlexity of the issue. I'd like to add a few details.
I now have dual citizenship - U.S. and Canadian (although the U.S. doesn't recognize my Canadian citizenship). I grew up in Detroit, where we almost didn't recognize a border and went to Windsor regularly to play hockey, shop, etc. Many on both sides crossed over to work each day. In this context borders seem artificial.
There are towns where the border passes through
bars and restaurants. People share the same issues.
My Church in Detroit became the Detroit-Windsor Refugee Coalition in the 80's, because U.S. policies in El Salvador made it unsafe for many to live. Salvadorians who came were illegal, but we worked with Canadians who accepted them legally because of their endangered situations. We practiced the Church-Sanctuary movement of the Middle Ages.
And what of all the Hispanics in Southwest states, whose land we stole over a century ago.
We resented them for speaking their Native language. What of Natives in both the U.S. and Canada, whose treaties have been broken continuously - leading the Lacota tribe to want to give up U.S. citizenship.
Finally, I went from high school to Toronto for 8 years of education. I had no papers, and nobody seemed to worry about citizenship (except Canadian students that we Americans riled with our "rah-rah" U.S. attitudes!). We freely went back and forth across borders. I lived in both countries a number of times over the years, eventually obtaining an official "landed immigrant" status, and years later citizenship. But I believe that the open attitude of Canadians did more for security than any laws, walls or fences could ever hope to accomplish.

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What's so bad about local action?
Posted by: war_on_tara on Dec 29, 2007 5:42 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Articles like this one always seem so appalled by action taken at the local level, or even at the state level - WHEN the actions run contrary to the let-'em-all-in agenda.

But this story notes the irony of the Littleton immigration integration initiative being in Tom Tancredo's district. There's more irony to it than that, because it's one of those (gasp) local actions.

The argument (such as it is) seems to be that no locality should do anything at all until Congress acts. When Congress does act, logically they're going to act with a crackdown. When they tried to act last spring, the public shot the proposal down as too lenient, but people like the author insisted on ignoring public opinion and continued to shoot it down as too strict! So now they can pretend to complain that Congress won't act. Most of the "immigration advocates" have a hard time denying that what they really want done is... nothing, now or ever.

Even this story gives two examples, from its own perspective, of local action it likes (Littleton, and Riverside NJ repealing its ordinance).

What's so bad about local action?

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There is value in abiding by the law that we liberals too often overlook.
Posted by: ThinkingHard on Dec 29, 2007 6:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I live in a midwestern state where my hometown, the site of an large meatpacking plant owned by a major international company, has radically changed my life and the life of our community . . . without our choice.

And, for all of my adult life, I have been known as a strong liberal; a progressive who has followed, supported, donated, and worked on behalf of many liberal, progressive candidates and causes.

But, we liberals and progressive have it wrong on illegal immigration. We liberals should not engage in just what we don't like about Rush Limbaugh, Lou Dobbs, and others; and throw out other epithets like "nativist," "mcarthyism," and us "rascist" midwesterners {for example} who, according to this author, probably never saw a brown face or heard spanish until the awful "illegal immigrants" came to town looking for work that we Amercians just won't too because it is beneath us.

Here are some thoughts:

1. In the midwestern states of Iowa, Nebraska, Kansas; we have seen dramatic increases in immigrants, many illegal, to meat slaughter and packing houses. And, these are jobs that we legal midwesterners did take and would do, but really have no opportunity now because the unions have been broken and the real wages at these plants is consistent with 1970 levels, and working conditions are worse. At the plant in my home town; where my cousin and several of my friends worked and supported a comfortable middle-class lifestyle; the workforce is largely illegal immigrants who all speak spanish and many of whom do live in what appear to be "company-housing" mobile homes and apartments. So, who is the "nativist" to assume and say that things are so gosh-awful bad in Mexico that these workers just have it so much better here. I do not contest that things are better or worse in Mexico. I do not know for sure. What I do know is that it seems "nativist" to me to assume that we are helping folks to bring them out of Mexico, for example, an put them in slaughter and packing facilities that are what Sinclair Lewis wrote about, and which have taken away real job opportunities for real midwestern Americans, who did, and would perform those jobs at fair wages; instead of the depressed wages which are the direct result of illegal immigration.

2. While I do believe the misguided, corrupt, and greedy trade policies brought about by recent administrations (including our very own Bill Clinton) has resulted in economic turmoil, that does not lead to the conclusion that illegal immigration is ok. It is simply a non sequitur.

3. Continuing illegality has its own corrupting effect on society. The author writes "If your name is Hernandez and you speak little English, can you risk reporting a crime to the local cops without being turned over to Immigration and Customs Enforcement?" And which crime might that be? The crime of coming to the United States illegally and working illegally? Sure, I understand his point; which is that living in the shadows of some "in between" status causes a breakdown of normal civic activity and civic virtues, like reporting crimes to the police. But, while you would ask civic virtue of an immigrant, or undocumented worker, or whatever to report a traffic violation or a crime, you would not ask them to follow the law about being in the United States and staying here legally? We may be plain folks out here in the midwest (or so you may thing) but that sort of mush just doesn't fly for conservatives or liberals.



And, before you get too sappy over the living conditions in Mexico, come on over to a meat packing town in the midwest, and talk with some of these immigrants who do live in crowded and depressing conditions.

We liberals need to do better than this.

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» You hit the nail on the head! Posted by: zooeyhall

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» RE: Mexicans are to me what Posted by: Lauren
» Hey, wasn't Hitler a vegan? Posted by: sausage
» Not racism Posted by: Joshua Holland

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Closing the Borders is an old theme
Posted by: pbziegler on Dec 29, 2007 7:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Watched a film last night--From the Villa--which took place in Italy during the rise of Fascism. I was fascinated to see and hear the character playing the Italian police chief talk about how Italy had to rid itself of immigrants who were coming into Italy fleeing the Nazis in Germany, Austria and Poland. The speech he gave sounded so much like the ragings of the Republican candidates and the right-wing talking heads. It amazes me that these American fascists can sound so much like the European fascists of the 30's and not notice the similarity of the rhetoric.

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» RE: Closing the Borders is an old theme Posted by: single-serving poster
» Not to be picky, but "always"? Posted by: single-serving poster
» Preposterous! Posted by: zooeyhall
» RE: Preposterous! Posted by: Joshua Holland

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Questions
Posted by: Southern Gal on Dec 29, 2007 7:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Who benefits from illegal immigration?

What are the financial costs of illegal immigration both locally and nationally?

What are the impacts on local and national infrastructures from the influx of illegal immigrants?

What are the impacts on the environment and natural resources of increases in population due to illegal immigration?

What responsibilities does the United States have to people who enter this country illegally?

How does this country humanely deal with the 20 plus million illegal immigrants already here?

Are there other countries that have policies addressing illegal immigration that the United States could use as models?

How important is the issue of illegal immigration in the elections of 2008?

What voice does the public have in the issues of illegal immigration?

If the national government is not willing or able to address the issues of illegal immigration, should local governments be able to address these issues through policies and legistlation developed on the local level?

Are the issues of illegal immigration better served on the national level by waiting until after the 2008 national elections to engage in development of policies based on real information and objectives that address the complexities and impacts of illegal immigration on people and resources of the United States?

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Brilliant, but misses the opening for fascism
Posted by: citizenjoe on Dec 29, 2007 8:17 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Superb discussion of immigration. I would add to it a discussion of a much greater political threat today than Peter Schrag perceives. Today we are faced with an authoritarian govt far more aggressive and imperial than any since before WWII. The USA has always had problems of assimilation, partly because assimilation involves rigorous and nasty subordination of those being assimilated. By an large, equality does not come to new members of society for many generations. The regime in power today is exploiting these problems with its devastatingly effective "war on terror". Their idea is to instill fear of all foreigners, especially those of the Middle East. With this ideology, the Bush regime is destroying the civil liberties of all citizens. It is dismantling our very republic. It was fear of the foreigner which fueled the Nazi's. Its is fear of the "inferior other" weakening our nation internally and externally that supports authoritarianism; it breeds the politics of fascism. This Peter Schrag does not perceive.--- Joe

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» I normally have 5 ratings Posted by: citizenjoe
» Yeah, I called this way back. Posted by: supercrisp

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The Term is Deviance Scare
Posted by: Gravitas on Dec 29, 2007 8:36 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The term we sociologists use is "deviance scare." A sociologist named Kai Erikson did an excellent job explaining the witch hunts using this concept. Norms, beliefs, ideology are what hold society together. When a society experiences rapid change, norms break down and society is in danger of falling apart. Durkheim called it anomie! To achieve temporary unity, society rallies around a "deviant" until the threat has past. Here is how I explain it to my classes. You can be fighting cats and dogs with your boy/girl friend, parent, brother, but what happens when an outsider comes and criticizes them? Bam, you are like glue with your loved one and the outsider becomes the new "enemy." Same dynamics in a deviance scare.

The problem is, when we are in one, whatever group we are picking on truly seems to be the problem. We can recognize a witchunt or McCarthism in restrospect, after the times have changed. But we can't recognize ourselves in those people when we are involved. Part of my master's project included weight obsession as a type of nutritional McCarthism. Women are more afraid of fat than nuclear war. Yet, it is even harder to convince sociey of its irrationality than immigration. Another hallmark of a deviance scare is that credible institutions are involved, like medicine or government. They provide legitimacy to the hysteria.

On the other hand, just because a deviance scare is occuring, does not mean there are no legitimate concerns. Certainly, it was reasonable to have some fear of communists during the cold war. Certainly, alcohol does pose some problems. (Prohibition.) Many people say we can't have totally open borders, and immigration has histoically been used by the power-elite to drive down the cost of labor. The issue is addressing the situation rationally and humanely vs losing all perspective and demonizing a group to the point we can no longer see them as human. I have long said that a popular prejudice in times or rapid change is as dangerous as a match in a parched forest. We as a society need to be more aware of this phemonena so we can stop repeating the mistakes of history.

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I'm still waiting for Spanish lessons for adults on prime time TV
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Dec 29, 2007 8:45 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm still waiting for Spanish lessons for English only speaking adults on prime time TV

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» TARA- ha ha ha ha ha ha.... Posted by: veggiegrrrl

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Who's Country?
Posted by: Carson on Dec 29, 2007 9:02 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The corporations and their economy's are doing fine.

The, "We the People's" economy's are being gutted by the criminals in businesses illegal labor.

Our faith in our government is at an all time low. Is it our government anymore?

In the sixties they came into our schools and brainwashed us with the concept that there wasn't enough room for us to have children. The said they would be unwanted. They launched, Family Planning, Birth Control pills, and Zero Population Growth. At the same time the Revolutionaries in the government were propping open the floodgates for their illegal invasion.

Anything and everything for the criminals in business. It is a worldwide rip-off!

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» Vote for Mike Huckabee!!! Posted by: sausage
» RE: Who's Country? Posted by: Sparks56

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The coming revolution
Posted by: kevtop on Dec 29, 2007 9:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Peter Schrag and his loonies on the far left are so full of BS; equating McCarthyism with illegal immigration. I personally know many people who lost their jobs to illegal immigrants working for so called private contractors. American families who were making a decent middle class living with full benefits were all of a sudden gathered together and told by their company's HR dept. that their service was no longer required. This shit happens all over this country and you people have the gaull to compare Americans who want justice to McCarthyism. Where is your liberal compassion for your fellow American worker, who themselves have to worry about losing jobs to cheap f.....g illegal border crosser's ? You don't know what the hell your talking about. Your on the wrong side of the issue and you don't even realize it. Bush's and the corporatist have been selling out the middle class for years;sending millions of factory jobs to Communist China. It's a double whammy for the poor American worker who now has to worry about losing his or her job to insourcing. Again you people are in on the killing of the American middle class worker. I hope your satisfied. Bad Comma is coming at you!

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Uproar about illegal immigaration=Distraction
Posted by: kirkmuse on Dec 29, 2007 9:26 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have had illegal immigrants coming across the Mexican border for well over 40 years. So why all of the uproar now? Distraction.

The GOP certainly doesn't want to talk about our invasion and endless occupation of Iraq. The GOP certainly doesn't want to talk about our skyrocketing budget deficits, which
are leading to our nation's bankruptcy.

And the GOP certainly doesn't want to talk about our good-paying jobs that are being 'outsourced' while the corporate CEO's
are making astronomical salaries.

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Claptrap
Posted by: Bettybb on Dec 29, 2007 9:37 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This writer has not a clue about the real issues facing this country with respect to illegal immigration.

1. The rule of law. Yep. That means one law for everyone, applied equally. That means if you break the law you get hit with the penalty. That means there is only one way to enter the USA, that is legally.

2. Cost. If all illegals were given amnesty, in 20 years there would be a 2.5 trillion unfunded entitlement. Want to triple the taxes you are paying right now? It still won't be enough.

According to the economists, a country must select the best and brightest as immigrants as they add more to the economy than they take out. Then you can have some low skllled workers who will be carried for a generation until they get high school diplomas. Otherwise you bankrupt your country.

Unfortunately per the Pew Hispanic Center study, Hispanics are taking 4 generations to reach the high school diploma stage, versus the standard 1 generation for other immigrants. They are equally capable, it seems it is a cultural problem (which of course would not exist if the assimilated).

3. Discrimination. With illegals being primarily Hispanic, any amnesty gives HIspanic
Americans PREFERENCE over other Americans in terms of numbers and timing of family reunification. That violates the anti discrimination clause and the equal protection clause of our Constituiton.

4. Amnesty = more amnesty. Americans protested in 1986 saying that if you gave amnesty all that would happen is that even more would come in and wait for the next one. Guess what? If there is another amnesty, the waves of new illegals are on their way.

5. Illegals take jobs, depress wages of Americans.

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» Racism Posted by: YogiBear

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Ridiculous comparison
Posted by: zooeyhall on Dec 29, 2007 9:56 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comparing working-class concerns over a mass influx of illegal aliens and economic refugees, to the McCarthyism and anti-communism of the 50's is ridiculous.

It is a SOCIAL and ECONOMIC issue.

Another old saw from the pro-illegal immigration types is that: if you oppose it you are racist.

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This is the best wedge issue ever!
Posted by: sausage on Dec 29, 2007 10:36 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wonder who first woke Lou Dobbs to the "illegal" immigrants issue? I mean he's kissed corporate America's butt of for years now and I for one don't expect him to change anytime soon. Cui bono from low wage, immigrant labor?

I wonder who put the bug in Mike Huckabee's ear that if the United States hadn't aborted 30-45 million babies since 1973, we have all the native-born, low wage workers we need?

I wonder how many posters here at Alternet.org--or any other Web site that takes up a reasonable discussion of "illegal" immigration--really know and can quote the "laws" the "illegals" are breaking?

I wonder how many times in this topic thread we're going to read something like, "My great-great-grandparents came through Ellis Island..."yaddy-yaddy-yadda.

I wonder how many posters who quack up a storm about how "illegal" immigrants are taking American jobs have ever worked as a hotel/motel domestic, washed dishes in a restaurant, worked as heavy construction laborer or on the kill-floor of a meat packing plant? And not as a summer job at college. ( I'm going to think you're lying anyway, so don't bother.)

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» Can't quote the laws... Posted by: mjabele

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500k Mexicanos Will Trek North in '08
Posted by: DigitalAztec on Dec 29, 2007 10:59 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
500,000 Mexicanos are expected to make the long dangerous trek north to El Norte next year. They will come for the same reason my grandparents came during the great depression. They will come because they will be hungry and because they will want to eat. They will come to work and they will bring their own version of the American dream - a better future for their children.

READ MORE

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» PEW is wrong Posted by: DigitalAztec
» RE: PEW is wrong Posted by: Joshua Holland

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If you can hike the Sonoran desert, you deserve to be a U.S. citizen
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Dec 29, 2007 11:49 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Right? Isn't that just the kind of ethic we want to support in this country? Hard work, dedication and determination - aren't those the "true American values" we try and teach our children?

All these people who froth at the mouth over the immigration issue should put their efforts into repealing NAFTA and ending the economic warfare against poor Mexicans and Central Americans. These people are best understood as economic refugees from the U.S. sponsored trade wars.

Let's say the situation was reversed - you could make $100 a day in the U.S., but if you snuck into Mexico you could get a $1000 a day job. Then, due to Mexican interference in the U.S. economy, your wages are dropped to $50 a day - and your family goes hungry. Wouldn't you cross the border if that meant you could feed your family?

However, the Republicans don't really give a damn about immigration. In fact, they like it - it provides agribusiness and meatpacking and manufacturing with a cheap, union-free labor force that they use to drive wages down across the board. You think ADM or Cargill or their ilk want to pay higher wages to U.S. citizens? Do you think that the banks and funds that control ADM want to see their profits decline due to wage increases?

No, the whole Republican agenda on immigration is the same as Pete Wilson's in California in the 90s - race-baiting and the politics of fear and hate. Worked for Hitler, didn't it?

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» What's your point? Posted by: war_on_tara
» Totally untrue -- myths of immigration Posted by: Joshua Holland

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Come on...
Posted by: Pirate1 on Dec 29, 2007 12:51 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's funny how people are about letting new people come in. Our own good Christian ancestors just had to come here and clear the "savages" from the land and it was "their land" all of a sudden. Since then, successive waves of people all have had to deal with these former immigrants who considered themselves the "rightful' inhabitants didn't want to let go of what they had basically stolen from the Native Americans. And later from what was very much Mexico.
All these toxic ideas of "right" are debilitating, blinding and stultifying.
The Mexicans coming into the southwest are in a plight not much different that of the Kurds or Palestinians. More than half of what was once Mexico ( modern day California, Nevada, Utah, New Mexico, Arizona, Texas, etc) was declared to be another country in which they had no rights.

I wonder what old "Christ on a Bicycle" at the top here would do if wherever he lives were, at the behest of some governmental machinations, declared to be part of another country and he no longer had a right to all he and his people had built there for generations before?

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we killed, raped, and stole fair 'n square -NOW GET IN LINE!
Posted by: tecpatl on Dec 29, 2007 12:52 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THAT should be the title of most of these posts. Most of these so-called Americans that have posted these vicious anti-immigrant diatribes really have no sense of our own history. Where did the land that most Americans live on come from? Who was killed in order to get it? Most Euro-Americans descend from people that did NOT get in line. In fact, the people in line ahead of them were killed or thrown into concentration camps called "reservations". I acknowledge that there is an immigration problem but the solution is NOT to try to kick all these HUMAN BEINGS out. The solution is to allow most of these people to be given a chance to become citizens. I suspect that many of these vicious anti-immigrant comments are made by so-called "religious" people that consider themselves "good" Americans. Seriously, they should look into their hearts and ask what would Jesus do. Either they find some empathy in their hearts or they must admit that they are no different from the Euro-Americans that went on a genocidal killing spree to expand this nation. Also, they might want to tear down the Statue of Liberty and all it stands for. I descend from immigrants. I support immigrants. I will fight for them.

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otto
Posted by: otto on Dec 29, 2007 1:18 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Josh always sounds as if he knows what he's talking about...I believe he does.

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KALKI
Posted by: SOWILO on Dec 29, 2007 1:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Where is Kalki when we need him.

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DONE.
Posted by: SOWILO on Dec 29, 2007 2:09 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In order to build sustainable environmental living, high standards of European education, women's rights, gay rights, etc. We need to abandon all legal and illegal immigration into all Western countries from the third world.

1. The third worlders are religiously intolerant. They are not helping the problems we have here with the Christianity amongst anglo-americans. Multiculturalism as an ideology forbids the mocking of organized religion. If we have to tolerate the religious views of Third Worlders, we have to tolerate Mike Huckabee. That to me is madness and is accelerating the decline of the West.

2. The third worlders believe that all Western culture is oppressive, yet THEY abuse women.

3. Multiculturalism has created a society that is so PC that nothing gets accomplished in education.

I am tired of this. I live in LOS ANGELES. Things have become unbearable here due to multiculturalism and immigration- nothing gets accomplished, everyone is PC'd into mush.

Also, I am getting tired of the notion that we "owe something" to the Native Americans. Read the book "Our Hearts Fell To the Ground: The Loss of the West in the words of the Native Americans."

They had a culture where war was sacred. When they met a formidable adversary, they lost and have been crying about it since.

We need to demand excellence out of all ethnic communities in the United States and they need to assimilate into the ideals of the Enlightenment of Western culture. All of them.

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» RE: DONE. Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» RE: DONE. Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: Pithy helmet Posted by: Geolager
» RE: What kind of hats do they wear now? Posted by: Joshua Holland

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Mirror moment
Posted by: YogiBear on Dec 29, 2007 2:49 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As the anti-immigrant zealots fan a generalized hysteria

Oddly enough Peter, most of the hysteria I see on this issue comes from the likes of you. Liberals are supposed to be both provocative and thoughtful, but on this issue they resemble the Mcarthys and Limbaughs more than anyone. Wake up and smell the hatred you're spewing.

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» RE: Mirror moment Posted by: SOWILO
» RE: Mirror moment Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Mirror moment Posted by: YogiBear

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I'm from Los Angeles Too
Posted by: DigitalAztec on Dec 29, 2007 3:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
L.A. is a great city. BILLIONS of $$ are traded here everyday.

We don't have an NBA team but short of that, this place rocks!

Hasta Pronto LoL

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» We have a secret taco Posted by: DigitalAztec
» RE: I'm from Los Angeles Too Posted by: anonymous black writer
» and he even got that wrong! Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: and he even got that wrong! Posted by: aonghus36

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.

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My wife and I have stopped eating at restaurants in LA.
Posted by: SOWILO on Dec 29, 2007 3:38 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are both working class and cook organic whole foods at home. We live on a small budget.

I have turned against consumer society because they do not have people's best interests in mind.

In restaurants in LA, you have a high chance of getting food poisoning because the kitchen help hasn't the habitual custom of hand-washing that is necessary to prevent food-borne illness in todays over-populated world.

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The NAFTA superhighway
Posted by: luzmejor on Dec 29, 2007 4:36 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Stopping individuals and families at the border with a big ugly fence is good because terrorists might bring in bombs and illegals?

Likewise, building a huge highway to bring in many thousands of truckers (and the many related crime problems, including illegals and smuggling) is just peachy and brings in "free" trade?

I suggest that if we are so afraid of people arriving from Mexico, then we had better just stop all trade between our borders and other nations.

In my opinion, free trade means that everyone can pass freely. The current laws are restricting only the common people's rights to travel as usual.

What a farce!

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» Except there is no NAFTA superhighway Posted by: Joshua Holland
» gosh josh Posted by: darkhorse
» RE: gosh josh Posted by: Joshua Holland
» It's not that simple.... Posted by: Smartcookie

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a book and a film or two...
Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Dec 29, 2007 5:08 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
a book and film:
Fast Food Nation by Eric Schlosser

Paperback: 416 pages
Publisher: Harper Perennial (July 5, 2005)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0060838582
ISBN-13: 978-0060838584

this book was recently made into a film, however i have not seen it, so i don't know what parts of the book it included/excluded...

the other film:
A Day without a Mexican


ultimately illegal immigration will continue as long as corporate america wants it to...blaming the immigrants themselves is really pointing blame at the wrong people.

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OH SHIAAT!!
Posted by: DigitalAztec on Dec 29, 2007 7:50 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You are so right!!!

hahahaha

How did I ever make that BIG mistatement???

Well, I stand corrected :)

Heck, we have 2 NBA teams LooL!

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Illegal Immigrants Are Trying to Escape Poverty, The "War on Drugs" Military Approach Will Not Work
Posted by: sofla100 on Dec 29, 2007 7:52 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To get to the root of the problem, we have to examine who is coming illegally to the USA and why. Fact is, NOBODY comes illegally to the USA from Western Europe or Canada. Understandable, as many of these countries actually have a higher standard of living then the USA. The illegal immigrants are virtually all coming from the poorer countries of South and Central America. And, it is obvious why they are coming, to escape the poverty and economic disasters in their own countries. Therefore, it is only a patchwork solution to talk about building great big fences, more guards, more guns, more enforcement. This is just like the USA "war on drugs" approach. And, we all know how effective that has been. I don't know about you, but I really don't want any more Homeland Security jack booted enforcers checking everyones ID and hauling off screaming women and chldren. No, a better approach is that the USA has to improve the living standards of South and Central America. For example, just lifting Mexico a little bit would cause 90% of those coming illegally from her to stay home. How does the USA do this. Will first, if we had not spent $1 trillion dollars on the stupid war in Iraq we could have spent a few hundred million to build up the infrastructure of Mexico, her schools, hospitals, and roads. We could have helped her with grants and loans to small businesses (not the IMF and World Bank corporate greed loans but real help to the poor). Bottom line, we could have done a lot. And, then the problem goes away. Just like it does not exist for the USA with countries that are developed. Isn't this better then more guns, more fences, more prisons and more Homeland Security jackboots on our streets?

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DONE WITH ALTERNET
Posted by: SOWILO on Dec 29, 2007 8:42 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You failed with removing that piece from VDARE.

If we can't be honest with the issue, why bother?

Both Left and Right are crazy.

America is finished. We need to prepare to pick up the pieces.

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» What piece from VDare? Posted by: DigitalAztec
» RE: What piece from VDare? Posted by: yellow

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There is a difference between legal immigrants and those who enter illegally!
Posted by: Intellect on Dec 29, 2007 9:02 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I see nothing wrong with legal immigration, and our laws and policies need to be modernized to accommodate the legal entry of as many immigrants as our country needs - and we do indeed need them, and will need more and more as time passes.

With baby boomers retiring we need taxpaying workers to pay into the Social Security fund to pay for Social Security benefits to those of us who are retiring and to replace our retiring workers in our workforce.

What we need to do first though is to control our borders!
A country that cannot control its borders is a target for terrorism as well as illegal immigration. After that is accomplished we need comprehensive laws to address those already here illegally - to give those who are obeying the rest of our laws a way to become legal. At the same time criminals among them - gang members, etc, must be addressed. We do not need the drive-by shootings and other criminal activities perpetrated by the small percentage of illegal immigrants already here - deport those who are involved in criminal acts and deny all criminals entry.

"Virginia has prohibited the sale of automatic weapons to illegal aliens"

WTF is wrong with that? There is no reason for illegal immigrants to have guns!

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Harping again
Posted by: compu on Dec 30, 2007 4:32 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When Limbaugh,and the rest hate mongers succeed
and unleash armed mobs on the aliens,and then
masacres take place,a reaction from their home
countries will occur.What is US without those
countries raw materiels ?
Japan,Germany and others countries will be more than happy to replace America as a source of goods,are not our trade rivals ?
Pat Buchanan did long ago debunk the canary
of the caliphate.The 9-11 attacks came about
US intervention in muslims affairs.
US risk made more than 500 millions more enemies
in latinamerica,on top of the 1 billion in the
islamic world,that will happen when video cameras start showing up atrocities accross America on the hispanic immigrants.

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Free College Education for Illegals
Posted by: Mel H. on Dec 30, 2007 10:16 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A year ago when I was doing searches for college financial aid I saw websites that say that New York State is giving free college educations to illegal immigrants in the SUNY colleges (State University of NY colleges.) When these illegal immigrants become educated, they will be able to do more of our jobs for less pay.

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» RE: Free College Education for Illegals Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Free College Education for Illegals Posted by: Joshua Holland

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Kind Of Ironic, Isn't It
Posted by: bcgirl125 on Dec 30, 2007 11:55 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
American progressives, fearing for the health of the environment, dutifully heed the instructions of the Zero Population Growth movement to have fewer kids. Then big corporations, finding they have less cheap labor to abuse, influence the government to open the borders to import more bodies, and so the population swells to an environmentally unsupportable size anyways. And then progressives support this! Am I the only one who finds this very strange?

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» Not really Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Oh yes it does! Posted by: Geolager

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What's the point of being a first-class citizen...
Posted by: matcha on Dec 30, 2007 12:21 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is something in the current wave of anti-immigrant sentiment reminiscent of Colin Powell's remark that letting gays serve openly in the military would "demoralize the troops." Getting ahead's not in the cards anymore. If we couldn't bash the immigrants, where would that leave us?

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delta15
Posted by: 15delta on Dec 30, 2007 12:42 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have a great idea.
Make Mexico a state as we did for Hawaii and Alaska and send Tankrato-Hunter and the Arizona six shooter (Sheriff) the hell out of this country or is his name Grumpy? Anyway through them the hell out of this country and let's get a President with at least an 8th grade education in office
And let's get a real president in office and run this disgrace out, NOW!
Before he waves at you.

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This is Mexico's Immigration Law- Those who think ours is too strict would weep
Posted by: Geolager on Dec 30, 2007 1:32 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Mexico has a single, streamlined law, seeking to ensure that foreign visitors and immigrants are legally in the nation and not burdens on society to name a few.

The Mexican constitution strictly defines the rights of citizens, and the denial of many rights to non-citizens.
The General Law on Population is the toughest on the continent. If a felony is a crime punishable by more than a year in prison, Mexican law makes it a felony to be an illegal alien in Mexico.
Mexico's main immigration law welcomes only foreigners deemed useful to Mexican society:

_ Foreigners are admitted into Mexico "according to their possibilities of contributing to national progress." (Article 32)

_ Immigration officials must "ensure (that) immigrants will be useful elements for the country and that they have the necessary funds for their sustenance" and that of their dependents. (Article 34)

_ Foreigners may be barred from the country if their presence has upset "the equilibrium of the national demographics," if they are deemed detrimental to "economic or national interests," if they are not good citizens in their own country, if they have broken Mexican laws, or if "they are not found to be physically or mentally healthy." (Article 37)

_ The secretary of governance may "suspend or prohibit the admission of foreigners when determined to be in the national interest." (Article 38)

Mexican authorities keep track of every person in the country:

_ Federal, local and municipal police must cooperate with federal immigration authorities : i.e., help in the arrest of illegal immigrants. (Article 73)

_ A National Population Registry tracks every "individual who comprises (sic) the population of the country," verifying each individual's identity. (Articles 85 and 86)

_ A national Catalogue of Foreigners tracks foreign tourists and immigrants (Article 87), assigning each a tracking number. (Article 91)

Foreigners with fake papers or who enter the country under false pretenses may be imprisoned:

_ Foreigners with fake immigration papers may be fined or imprisoned.

(Article 116)

_ Foreigners who sign government documents "with a signature that is false or different from that which he normally uses" are subject to fine and imprisonment. (Article 116)

Foreigners who fail to obey the rules will be fined, deported, and/or imprisoned as felons:

_ Foreigners who fail to obey a deportation order are punished. (Article 117)

_ Deported foreigners who try to re-enter Mexico without authorization can be imprisoned for up to 10 years. (Article 118)

_ Foreigners who violate terms of their visa may be sentenced for up to 6 years in prison. (Articles 119, 120, and 121) Foreigners who misrepresent terms of their visa (ie.working without a permit) can also be imprisoned.

Under Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony. The General Law on Population says:

_ "A penalty of up to two years in prison and a fine of 300 to 5,000 pesos will be imposed on foreigners entering the country illegally." (Article 123)

_ Foreigners with immigration problems may be deported, rather than imprisoned. (Article 125)

_ Foreigners who "(make attempts) against national sovereignty or security" will be deported. (Article 126)

Mexicans who help illegal aliens enter the country are considered criminals:

_ A Mexican who marries a foreigner with the sole objective of helping the foreigner live in the country is subject to up to 5 years in prison. (Article 127)

_ Shipping and airline companies that bring undocumented foreigners into Mexico will be fined. (Article 132)


Shall we use Mexico's law as a model?

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The End of a White America
Posted by: Democratic Socialist on Dec 30, 2007 2:24 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The hidden/taboo side of the 'immigration debate' that many of the politically correct idiots in the media very rarely mention is the massive demographic shift that is occuring in America -- slowly but surely, White/European America is being usurped in the country that THEY built.

Now, I am not a racist or a 'White nationalist' or a member of the KKK or anything like that, but as a half White/European American it does disturb me that America will not be a majority White/Europpean nation in another 50-100 years because of illegal immigrants and their excessive and irresponsible (3rd world) breeding patterns, broken borders, and bad U.S. government immigration policy which lets in millions of inassimilable people from around the world EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

It seems to me that in America many other ethnic groups are allowed to care about their ethnic heritage and contribution to American society, whether it is those of African descent, Hispanics/Latinos, Jews, Asians of all nationalities, etc. However, when Americans of White/European descent actually care about their ethnic interests as those other groups so often do they are accused of being racists or 'nativists.'

Why must America be eventually overrun by people from around the world (but mostly those from south of Texas who are here illegally) when White Europeans founded, settled, populated, and built America? Many bad things of course happened in the past (African slavery, elimination of Native Americans), but it still doesn't change the fact that Americans of White/European should have pride that their tough and resourceful ancestors explored, settled, populated (making a LOT of babies!), and ultimately built the great nation that America became. However, these White/European Americans SHOULD NOT be proud that now they are just letting it be taken over by people who just have more babies than them. It cannot be denied that as the White/European population has slipped in to decline in the United States, America as a whole has started to decline as well on so many levels, both domestically and internationally.

I'm not a fan of conservatives, but Pat Buchanan is one of the only strong (semi-mainstream) voices that has the courage to talk about this issue of ethnic and demographic shifts. In his newish book DAY OF RECONONG he writes: "And today, the American of John F. Kennedy, 89 percent white and 10 percent of African descent, an essentially biracial country united by a common culture, creed, history, and tradition, is gone. We threw it away. Today, America is twice as populous as in 1950--with 300 million people. Instead of 1 to 2 million Hispanics, there are 45 million, with 102 expected by 2050, concentrated in a Southwest that 58 percent of Mexicans say belongs to them. Our population is down to 67 percent European, and falling; 14.5 percent Hispanic and rising rapidly, 10 percent black and holding, and 4.5 percent Asian and rising. By 2040, Americans of European descent will be less than half of the population, when, as President Bill Clinton told and audience of cheering California students, we will all belong to minorities."

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» Note: proofreading is important Posted by: Democratic Socialist
» RE: Addendum Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: The End of a White America Posted by: Smartcookie

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Trivia
Posted by: Gaubladt on Dec 30, 2007 2:45 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here in the Dallas Fort Worth area, I've been noticing the unmistakable specter of inter-racial animosity. Only, more than usual; more people are more prone to meanness when dealing with people of other races than just a few years ago, and for no apparent reason.
That is disturbing to me: Partly because I live in a racially mixed neighborhood. While, it seems impossible that my neighborhood could turn overnight into a cauldron like Baghdad now, or LA in the 1990's, L.A. and Baghdad didn't just happen overnight.
The rabid right wing attack dogs on the radio stations are helping to prime the forthcoming human tornado. And, I resent that.
From my perspective, Lou Dobbs and those clear com radio guys are all traitors.
As far as displacing native whites is concerned: It seems to me that as long as the Mexicans were doing all the back-breaking labor while the whites got to sit in the air-conditioned cabs of their back-hoes, the whites couldn't have cared less about immigration. But, now that's all changed.
My co-workers still make a distinction between Work and N-Work. I suspect that that is what this immigration thing is all about: Getting Euro-fannies back in the seats of those air-conditioned back-hoes.
There are other issues that nobody wants to talk about: If there are 30 million people who are to be rounded up and processed in concentration camps and then deported, at 10 thousand dollars per head, that's a lot of human misery, plus 300 billion dollars of our hard earned taxes, just to get some fat asses back in to the seats of their back-hoes.
Then we'll have 30 million very unhappy campers dumped into the welcome arms of Hugo Chavez and his Bolivarian Revolution. That would likely lead to the rapid and total collapse of the American Epoch. Now, right wing republican activists stand hand in hand with the anarchists, & confederates, trying to bring our great Pax Americana down into the dust.
A humane and decent solution to the immigration issue is really a matter of national security. Because, there are many ways this thing could turn real sour, real quick. For the Republican activists to capitalize on this issue, and stall any solutions in congress, may be great for them. But, what they do is not good for America. And, it could be hazardous for me personally.

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Individuals aren't the Problem
Posted by: macdon1 on Dec 30, 2007 3:16 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't agree with illegal immigration and it makes me angry too. Illegals definitely ARE depressing wages and taking jobs from Americans. That said, it is also true that conditions in Mexico are worse then ever after NAFTA and people are desperate to make a living. The small number of Mexican elites who have always hogged everything for themselves love being able to watch EL Migra defuse what might turn into a very ugly situation for them. Once they can get a North American Union, the elites of all three countries will be able to consolidate their power and "discipline" us all to the beaten down level of the exploited Mexican worker, while they live behind high walls in fabulous luxury. If you doubt what I am saying go South of the Border and take a look at the palatial homes of the rich with their huge fences,metal shutters and heavily armed security guards. It can and has happened here in the coal country. (read "Night Comes to the Cumberlands")That is what the North American Union will bring on a continental scale.

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Bob J
Posted by: skingk on Dec 30, 2007 6:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is nothing new, Teddy Roosevelt got it right in 1907:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/troosevelt.asp

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Government needs replacing
Posted by: Dietrich on Dec 30, 2007 8:51 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This government is electing a new people--an unprecedented move by a rogue government.

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Telethon For White People
Posted by: DigitalAztec on Dec 30, 2007 8:53 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You people really got it tough. I suggest you hold a telethon for yourselves. Then you can use the money you raise to "purchase" (LoL!!!) more land from Mexico.

Better yet, why don't you people build your wall at Panama.

You could save money building a shorter fence and use the canal as a moat.

But I guess getting stuck with all those mixed race mongrels kind of defeats the purpose.


I got it. Why don't you "Americans" (HAHAHAHAHA) "liberate" Canada?

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» Good Point, Azteca... Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Good Point, Azteca... Posted by: Dietrich
» RE: Good Point, Azteca... Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Telethon For White People Posted by: parmenicleitus

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Not Just Meatpacking
Posted by: Arlene on Jan 2, 2008 9:02 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Illegal immigration has facilitated union busting not just in meatpacking, but also construction and allied industry, food and hospitality, and nursing and custodial care. There are partially disabled people like my nephew who stocks shelves in a big box retail store who could work but not at the wages being paid currently due to being displaced by illegals.

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How many people can the U.S. support?
Posted by: Libsrule on Jan 2, 2008 7:01 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This seems to be the question everyone who is an open borders and amnesty for refuse to think about?

Just how many people can the infrastructure of this country handle?

For the open border types and those who think anyone who wants to come here should be allowed to come here now, how many do you think this country could handle in the next...say....ten years?

Another 20 million?

Another 100 million?

Can you see what this country would become if we allowed another 50 million people here with no legal restrictions, who are uneducated, unskilled, a lot with health problems and very few if any speaking the language as well as the fact the majority no longer want to become Americans. They simply want the right to come and go across our borders and support their families and friends back in their native country, which is most predominantly Mexico?

Although illegals do contribute to the tax system, they are a net drain financially, even considering the taxes they contribute. There are simply too many of them. Further, they take jobs that should go to our own middle class and poorer citizens, and would if they were not here. Their presence depresses wages for all lower strata jobs and causes small businesses to lose business to those who hire the illegals and therefore can undercut their job bids. Many small construction and similar businesses are struggling because to compete successfully they would have to dump their current employees and hire illegals like their competition already has. Illegals are a huge drain on public health and education, consuming resources that should go to help legal citizens. Because I'm basically a liberal, I am against illegal immigration because the persons it hurts the most are the poorer classes, both illegals and our own needy citizens.

It would be great if America and society could still afford unlimited immigration, but those days are gone. Our natural resources are strained with the number of people we have NOW - adding a two million illegals per year will simply bring us to emergency that much sooner. What good will it have done us to let everyone in who wants to come, when by doing so we are insuring that our infrastructure, public services and water, electricity, etc., won't be able to handle it, leaving us all in want? Will people finally learn once the US turns into an overpopulated sinkhole where no one but the wealthy can survive? It is already predicted that rolling blackouts and brownouts are expected to be a regular occurrence starting in a few years, because of demand on the energy infrastructure and lack of natural resources - how much worse will it be when we are adding a million users per year that are illegals, in addition to the normal modes of population increase? We are already fighting over water supplies in the west and southwest. The old world is gone, and we have to make hard choices. We are no longer living in the 1800's or even early 1900’s where we welcomed and needed all we could get to come here.

Cesar Chavez was against illegal immigration. He even led marches to the Mexican border to protest illegals. He knew it would hurt those he was working hardest for; the poor legal immigrants who could not compete with illegals who will be willing to work for even less wages. He worked hard to get legal immigrants better rights in the fields.

We are digging our own graves with our misguided generosity. We are paying for a badly run war that is going beyond all normal reason and was started on false premises. We are paying for a poorly run Medicare system. We are paying for corporate welfare. And we are going to suffer if our infrastructure is allowed to stand in the deteriorating condition it is. We can no longer afford to welcome everyone who wants to come here. Sure, I wish it were different - but times have changed.

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