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The Stillborn God

By Zachary Karabell, Truthdig. Posted December 29, 2007.


Is separation of church and state a myth in America?

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One of the bedrock assumptions of our society is that we have, after centuries of struggle, finally achieved an enviable balance that allows individuals to have their own religious beliefs but does not permit religion to dictate public life and thereby enflame passions and generate deadly conflict. That balance was hardly easy to create, and only after many years of two steps forward and one step back did we in the West finally -- supposedly -- arrive at the right formula. But arrive we did, says Mark Lilla in "The Stillborn God: Religion, Politics and the Modern West," his provocative, passionate essay on what he calls "the Great Separation."

With the rise of a virulent strain of radical fundamentalism in the Muslim world, that separation is being assailed, and we seem bewildered that anyone could argue against it. Lilla, however, contends that it is not the fundamentalists -- Muslim, Christian and Jewish -- who are seeing the world askew; it is Western culture and its defenders. "We must remind ourselves," he writes, "that we are living in an experiment, that we are the exceptions. We have little reason to expect other civilizations to follow our unusual path, which was opened up by a unique theological-political crisis within Christendom." In short, Lilla believes that we> have gotten one thing utterly wrong: We are not us. We are them. We are not the rule; we are the exception.

The rule for Lilla is a blurring of the political and theological that has defined most societies from time immemorial and Western society for most of recorded history until only recently. Since the dawn of Christianity, there has been a deep confusion in Western society about what constitutes a good society, and Lilla astutely highlights what he sees as the limitations of the New Testament in not "articulating a clear, coherent picture of the good Christian political order." Although full of moral guidance, the New Testament is indeed vague about how society should be structured, perhaps because most of those who penned its text believed that the end of days was near and hence that it would be a waste of time thinking too much about how to construct an ideal political society in this world. The result, however, was endless war and tension between different groups in what became Europe.

Lilla is a historian of ideas, and his book is primarily an intellectual history of the thinkers who confronted the problem of never-ending wars of theology and who sought a solution and an escape. Lilla's hero in this endeavor is Thomas Hobbes, the 17th-century English philosopher who looked at the wreckage caused by theological conflict and offered a radical solution: structure society around man's nature, not on God's. And that nature isn't pretty. For Hobbes, "the reason human beings in war commit acts no animal would commit is, paradoxically, because they believe in God. Animals fight only to eat or reproduce; men fight to get into heaven." Because humans need someone to follow absolutely, Hobbes suggested that they follow not God, whose will is mysterious when applied to politics, but rather an absolute ruler, "an earthly God."

From Hobbes, Lilla then charts the intellectual peregrinations of thinkers as varied as Rousseau, Kant, Hegel and Karl Barth. Some are more familiar than others, but the book as a whole is a sophisticated series of essays on the way these thinkers slowly erected a wall between theology and politics and inexorably built the foundations for a society predicated not on God's will but on human action and human thought.

As with any endeavor of this kind, it is easy to quibble with Lilla's interpretations and his selective readings. But that is less an issue with what Lilla has done and how he has done it than with intellectual history itself. By nature, it imposes a coherence and sense of orderly progression on intellectual thought -- even when acknowledging just how messy the evolution of ideas can be. Because Lilla is looking for the roots of the Great Separation, he naturally finds them, at the expense of clearing away not just weeds but roots of other ideas that are not the subject of his inquiry. Still, that comes with the territory, and while it would have strengthened his case to have acknowledged that his question -- and not some bright, shining self-evident historical progression of ideas -- determined what he does and does not pay attention to, he succeeds in excavating the path that led to what we now blithely call the separation of church and state.

Lilla is by no means a romantic about that separation. He understands how hard it was to achieve, and how unsatisfying it can be and continues to be even to this day. Like democracy, it was never a great solution, only better than the alternatives.

Where Lilla does fall short, however, is in the very presumption that there was a Great Separation, or that it is alien to all but the modern West. It is without a doubt true that Western Europe today is a series of societies defined less and less by Christianity. However, the same cannot be said of the United States. While Americans don't fight wars of religion with one other, it is a stretch to say that there has been a Great Separation in the United States or that God is stillborn in contemporary American life. Fighting to be heard, perhaps, but stillborn? It is also wrong to generalize these issues to humanity. Chinese culture has a powerful stream of Confucian thought which is in essence God-less. China hasn't had a Great Separation because it never had to grapple with an immanent God, a transcendent God, or any God. And India? Let's not get started on India, with its one God, its one Gods, its many Gods, no Gods, pantheon of Gods, and castes, and Vedas and Upanishads and just about anything and everything that has been anywhere and everywhere.

Lilla concludes by saying that "ours is a difficult heritage ...because it demands self-awareness" rather than revelation, because in recognizing the perils of messianic religion, we are left to our devices and those are rarely satisfying. There is something troubling about that sentiment, and self-satisfied. Lilla is saying that our path -- or rather the path he says we took -- is hard, but it is a good hard and a better hard, and, it is strongly implied, a more evolved hard. That would be news to the Chinese, to the Indians, and to billions outside the West who have engaged in equally human struggles in vastly different ways, who don't know from Hobbes and couldn't spell Kant. It would also be news to preachers all across America who everyday lament the separation of church and state and are looking for ways to put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

And as for those whom Lilla does not name but whom he nonetheless points a j'accuse-like finger at -- the children of Osama bin Laden -- they do challenge many of our notions as well as those of a billion Muslims who live the great separation more than most in the West recognize. To imply that those children of Bin Laden define the universe of billions of them and that Hobbes and his thought define us is to force far too many square pegs into one very small round hole. Lilla has done a fine job of highlighting and explicating some of the great thinkers of Western civ and exploring how they grappled with some vexing problems. But his reading of who we are is strangely simplistic, and his view of them, of those who have supposedly not made the journey to the other shore, is ultimately confined to a very small them in a wide world that is far more sophisticated and wonderfully more complicated than these essays suggest.

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Zachary Karabell is the author of several books, including, most recently, "Peace Be Upon You: Fourteen Centuries of Muslim, Christian, and Jewish Coexistence in the Middle East," published by Alfred A. Knopf.

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Myth of separation
Posted by: vox persona on Dec 29, 2007 12:55 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peacably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" (1st Ammendment, some GD piece of paper)

That depends on what the definition of "respecting" and "establishment" is.

The 'separation of church and state' was introduced in Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists, and somehow became conflated with the First Ammendment, which did not imply
that all traces of God should be removed from society. This is a good opening for you Alternet scholars and historians (I know you're out there, I often look forward to your expositions) to put some context here....were the founders Deists, etc.
The founders and framers, aside from being rich white males, primarily lawyers (I believe), they were actually men with by and large a firm moral/spiritual foundation.
During the Constitutional Convention, Ben Franklin made the motion, "I beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of heaven and its blessing on our deliberations be held in this assembly every morning before we proceed to business".
In the Declaration of Independence, Jefferson referred to God four times, which refers to "the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God" in the first line and divine Providence in the last line.
In George Washington's farewell address, he states, "There are only two supports for political prosperity in America, that's religion and morality. Therefore, don't let anyone claim to be a true American patriot if they ever try to separate religion and morality from politics".
Patrick Henry said, "It cannot be emphasized too often or too strongly that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians; not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".
John Adams wrote to Abigail, "It appears to me that the Eternal Son of God is operating powerfully against the British Nation".

Okay staunch atheists I'm ready for the flurry of '1 ratings' for quoting after all some of the people responsible for this Grand Experiment that CheneyBu$hCo is trying to piss away. And I know that you avid Googlers can come up with comments from other (and the same) founders that sound dismissive of religion/spirituality, there's your homework assignment. But as for me, I'll take Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, Adams and company every time. Thanks for the country, guys.

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» RE: Myth of separation Posted by: harryf200
» Slice and Dice Posted by: LeaderofMen
» RE: Slice and Dice Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: Thanks for the country guys? Posted by: scott balogh
» RE: No myth when I was young Posted by: Edward George
» RE: Truely Mighty One Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
Separation of church & state is a LIE
Posted by: HoboHomo on Dec 29, 2007 1:28 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is one important tenet of so-called activist judges, to protect a minority from the tyranny of the majority. Especially when such a minority is more universally hated than any other; as are homosexuals, transsexuals and bisexuals. In fact, as oppressed as many minorities remain, most still cling to backward and hateful notions against even their own non-hetero brethren.

The issue of gay marriage has become a glaring example of dangers that arise when church matters are not kept separate from those of the state. Indeed, it has become The Great Test Of Today's Amerika regarding the issue of individual rights versus majority prejudice. And if we keep moving in that sorry direction much longer, we are likely to see a full-blown holocaust against these long-suffering people.

IOW, when it comes to gay rights, church and state are FAR from seperate...in fact, they are Siamese twins!

Not only is Mark Lilla's essay inaccurate and simplistic...it is ignorant. For on the grounds of gay rights alone (w/o considering any other matter), one can easily prove that separation of church and state is a lie, and always has been since this nation's inception.

Unfortunately, like so many pundits (even those who claim the label "liberal"), Mr. Lilla excludes any consideration of sexual minorities because in his eyes non-heterosexuals are irrelevant.

--
Zeke Krahlin
http://www.gay-bible.org/steal

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Lilla is indeed kind of Huntingtonian
Posted by: manseb on Dec 29, 2007 6:39 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I like Karabell rap on Lilla's ethnocentrism. The line, "We are the exception and the others are just all too humans" have become disturbingly rampant among liberal intellectuals as the new, unself-conscious mantra of Western superiority, really not that different from the "we are the better civilization" of yore, only with an embattled, and not triumphant, sound to it. So huntingtonian, ironically...

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There Is No Separation Of Church And State In The US
Posted by: gacl on Dec 29, 2007 10:09 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's the proof:

1) Look at a our paper money.
2) The Pledge Of Allegiance.
3) You have to swear on the Bible in court.
4) The government openly sponsors religion-based social programs.
5) During the Newdow controversy I sent a letter to Hillary asking her what her opinion was and she replied that "this is a Christian country". So, if our future dict- oops, president says it, well. . .
6) During the past semester I did a lot of student teaching here in Long Island and _every_ school had "In God We Trust" right at the entrance in big black letters. Not only that, but some of the Christmas carols that were being rehearsed either either asked the singers to pray or were religiouly themed.

Does anybody remember the "Pledge Protection Act"? Where lawmakers overwhelmingly voted not only to keep indoctrinating the children of the US with their favorite religion but to wage a war against checks and balances?

Gus

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» RE: Pledge of Allegiance Posted by: Pirate1
» RE: Pledge of Allegiance - Posted by: bitsfick
The Unfortunate Truth
Posted by: craigandrew on Dec 29, 2007 10:14 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whatever system of government a person chooses to live under, they have to have faith in it. All religions are rudimentary forms of governance; all governments are a form of religion.

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» RE: The Unfortunate Truth Posted by: GPFrank
» RE: The Unfortunate Truth Posted by: bitsfick
True, but there's more
Posted by: primalscream on Dec 29, 2007 10:39 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The most fundamental change in Christianity's relationship to the state came with the Constantinian transformation of the fourth century. It was at that point that Christian thought began being bent, if not broken, to meet the needs of the state.

Many of the first generations of Christians did indeed think the world would end within their lifetimes, but that does not mean there were no political implications to their movement. In fact, they were among the Western world's first counterculturalists. The phrase "gospel of Christ," for example, directly stuck it to the Roman Empire, which spoke of the "gospel of Caesar." Even Paul's social rules, which were adapted from earlier traditions and are (correctly) seen as out-of-date today, were actually somewhat progressive in the first century. They gave moral agency to people dismissed by a society of zero social mobility, granting them a sense of worth the larger culture did not offer them.

The point is this: Christianity failed to provide a coherent philosophy of how-to-rule not simply because early Christians exepected to be rocketed to heaven (though that was part of it), but also because early Christians were social and political radicals who had no expectation of ruling. John Howard Yoder's classic book, "The Politics of Jesus," offers a good explication of this.

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The Cult of Religious Bureaucracy
Posted by: thelostsailor on Dec 29, 2007 12:44 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religious factions are peculiar beast indeed. Perhaps inherently a problem from each of their creations. Ultimately, every denomination was founded by one or a few who sought to not conform to the earliest established or shared religious beliefs. Yet these people established their own system which 'forced' others to conform to this denomination's new doctrine.
Flash forward to today>
Nearly every religious denomination has a bureacracy that champions a list of ethics for it's people to live by and a list of political directives. So, isn't it a cult who follows the wishes of one or a few? Who decided, in your religious denomination's organization, what political candidate will get a bunch of your organization's money? who condones the actions of those politicians? who says abortion is bad? good? who advocates war in your church organization?

We are, without a doubt, in the midst of religious wars- as is the theme of virtually every war ever battled on the planet. The separation of church and state is laughable.

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disestablishment vs. separation
Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Dec 29, 2007 4:50 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
for a good treatment of separation of church and state i recommend:

Separation of Church and State
by Philip Hamburger

Paperback: 528 pages
Publisher: Harvard University Press; New Ed edition (March 30, 2004)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0674013743
ISBN-13: 978-0674013742

the original idea of separation was not so much separation as disestablishment; the founding fathers had no intention of endorsing (establishing) and supporting an official state religion (such as the case in most of western europe and certainly england where the state church was and is the anglican church) this is really a different concept than separation. ideas of separation are at least two fold...the idea that the church should be separate from government in order to keep it (the church) from being tainted by politics is one side of it...the other idea, which grew out of the influx of catholics in the mid 1800s - is where we begin to see our modern interpretation...protestants feared that catholicism would creep its way into public thought (particularly in public schools) and wanted an official separation to keep catholic ideas out of the "state" so to speak...read the book!

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only someone who...
Posted by: kenhymes on Dec 29, 2007 6:46 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Only someone who has never lived in a country dominated by religious violence (and in the world today, as opposed to Europe before the Treaty of Westphalia, that means mostly violence among Muslims and between Hindis and Muslims) could possibly speculate about whether there is separation of church and state in the US. OF COURSE THERE IS, you dimwits! This whole theocracy scare is a pile of bullshit driven by: paying too much attention to a few well-publicized blowhards; focusing relentlessly on temporary inroads into policy by fundies that are actually crumbs thrown to them by a GOP desperate to keep their evaporating base together; and the pathological avoidance by the Interleft of local, practical solutions to problems faced by poor people, which avoidance requires a blogger's crisis to sustain. No one in most towns gives a rat's ass about Pat Robertson OR the "New Atheism." What they care about is the insanity of our healthcare system; the degradation of our ecosystem; the long hours and the decreasing rights and benefits. These are the issues the left has answers for. Religion is a private thing in the US, and if you think that most Christians want it otherwise, you just have no clue what's going on in churches. Of course you can find stupid Christians, just like you can find stupid atheists. But that's not in any way an argument. The Constitution is far more threatened by the Congress' unwillingness to stand up to the White House on civil rights and war powers than by the pathetic mess that is the "Christian Right."

Y'all need to get out more.

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» RE: only someone who... Posted by: fork
huh?
Posted by: kenhymes on Dec 29, 2007 6:49 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nearly every denomination has a list of political directives its members are expected to follow? What the freak are you talking about? Your comment would make most pastors laugh, because it's ludicrously untrue. A few churches have puched politics... most can barely get people to show up on Sunday.

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» RE: huh? Posted by: kenhymes
Can't take away what's already written
Posted by: GPFrank on Dec 30, 2007 5:39 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have just obtained two new books that just came out this year. The first is 'The Bible" (a Biography) by Karen Armstrong Atlantic Monthly Press, NY,2007): (one of a series in development, entitled, "Books That Changed The World". The other was just released a month ago:
"A Secular Age" by Charles Taylor.(Harvard) Karen Armstrong's book draws upon whagt is best inferred from the evidence of archeology and the Bible itself, that the Bible cannot be understood except as the beginning and results of intense spiritual activity that included search for the best mysticism in relation to (not only one God, solo) but the hosts surrounding. She explains not only the love but how the hatred came about. This exposition of the "bibliography" is directly in contrast to the idea of the Bible as a set of formulas carved in granite which is a very recent understanding of it. The Bible is not a set of "take-aways" in order to get to heaven, but most of the time, a search for new inspirations.
through the centuries .

That dovetails right into Charles Taylor's essay that is both a reference for scholars and encourgement to look on the bright side as to how
modern thinking and activity has enhanced the spiritual. That is, Taylor urges turning the argments around, of the God talkers demanding
"take aways" from the humanists and the humanists and secularists in turn demanding to "take away" the God talk. Rather, Taylor wants
us to seek what the more religious and the less religious can give to each other rather than spout dogmas. He says it much better than I am saying, but it's a long book. I suggest reading the introductory parts because he make very clear his objective. One can then take time with the history discussion and musings.

A comment then, on the Deism of the forefathers: the God they talked about was in reference to the moral law and justice: when one said "God" in those councils it meant looking to the highest in terms of behavior, liberty and responsibility in drafting the government: The vision of a perfect society in spite of institutions of their present, such as slavery.

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Is separation of church and state a myth in America?
Posted by: bitsfick on Dec 30, 2007 7:20 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes it is a myth, it wasn't too many years ago, that thanks to the catholic church's Draconian views on reproductive rights, birth control was illegal. And you can bet your ass that they are trying right now to make it illegal again.

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"Escape from Freedom" remains a powerful historical current.
Posted by: Sojourner on Dec 30, 2007 11:56 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One can only hope Lilla enjoyed his trek through Enlightenment thinkers in search of how and why it made a difference in history. Not to disparage such a journey, since it remains at least as massive a transformation as was the whole life of the Roman Empire, but hanging it on the hook of church/state leaves a lot of other hooks empty.

Just recently Moyers' interview with historian Cahill was rebroadcast. Cahill sees the difference between the Judeo/Christian West and the Islamic West as the latter having, so far, avoided a similar epoch as was the Enlightenment. Indeed, the differences found in Islamic politics can be characterized as of people welcoming their own version of modernity and those resisting it. I see the likelihood of reverses as minimal. Sure, it's a continual struggle--same as it ever was.

More interesting, and Lilla gives us no help here, is the GOP attempt since Reagan to reverse the US New Deal. FDR gave us a political enlightenment. Such radical changes always invite retreat to autocracy, especially in time of crisis.

The US version of ayatollahs sits on the Supreme Court. Rescuing the progress made in the US since FDR was elected will not be easy. What we learn from history is that some always want to turn it backward, to a time when they had more control.

Freedom, they say, is a constant struggle. Never give up.

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Jesus said:
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Dec 30, 2007 12:16 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and unto God that which is God's..!"

That's Jesus telling us not to mix politics with religion..!

Who am I, to argue with Jesus of Nazareth..?

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» RE: Jesus said: Posted by: rhinojos
Why the New Testament doesn't prescribe a political system:
Posted by: corky on Dec 30, 2007 1:28 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hi All:

I'd say that Mennonite scholar John Howard Yoder explained it correctly: the way of Christ is NOT the way of the state. The state is about using force to maintain order. The way of Christ is to display sacrificial love as a demonstration of the sacrificial love and redemption of God. Christ didn't propose a political structure because he recognized that if everyone loved their neighbor, turned the other cheek, sought the kingdom of God instead of their own short term material gain, the question of how to organize things would be a mere technical matter, not a moral issue. If everyone followed Christ's ways, the very concept of human rights would be meaningless since no one even think about violating them.

IMO Christians ought to be the first folks to support the separation of church and state; the church cannot BE the church while aspiring to the power of the state.

your friend
keith

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The churches aren't monolithic
Posted by: PaulK on Dec 30, 2007 4:44 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Within every church and sect, people read the Bible and get radical ideas -- freedom is good, the current generation of priests are crooked, the military kills villages full of baby boys as a preventative measure, the little and the humble are mighty, go live and die for your beliefs unless you're a coward like Peter was, all sorts of heady stuff. Some churches go as far as to say "believe every single bit of the Bible".

So, the politically well-connected Christian politicians are practicing "Thou shall steal like Hades" on the top end, and the pews are full of a mixture of passionate radicals, right next to utter stooges who wouldn't know the parable of Lazarus and the rich man if a Chinese political slave/worker fell on top of them at Wal-Mart.

The Mormons may have Joseph Smith and the Muslims revere Muhammad, but they both revere Jesus. Even American Jews respect Jesus as a mainstream rabbi of his time. All sorts of political leaders want us to kill the infidels. What if the infidels were reading the same texts as us? What if the Bible itself isn't killing-friendly?

I don't like the above essay because it treats "the church" as monolithic.

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welbycox
Posted by: wcox on Dec 30, 2007 10:44 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course there is no evidence for god(s) anyway. There is no evidence for life after death or for the soul. Religion is purely a human invention as is god(s). Government, on the other hand is quite real. So why would anyone want to mix fiction with reality? Government is not a fantasy, but religion and god are.

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FREEDOM OF SPEECH?
Posted by: aberdeen on Dec 31, 2007 10:53 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Response to Zachary Karabell; on myth of church and state separation in America...

According to Zacharay Karabell, "Although full of moral guidance, the New Testament is indeed vague about how society should be structured..."

As someone who has read the New Testament many times, I know this statement to be entirely false. The New Testament very clearly defines the proper human rights lifestyle as one of sharing all material possessions in common and giving our excess to the poor.

The fact that modern Christianity fails to do this in no way detracts from what the New Testament actually says, any more than Pat Robertson nullifies the actual teachings of Jesus, which are as far away from what Robertson promotes is the East is from the West, if not further.

Modern liberals consistently display a very great ignorance about what Jesus and the authors of the New Testament actually said and did, which leads an educated person to conclude that they are themselves, victims of conservative religious lies.

"Separation of church and state", to Jefferson and the founding fathers, clearly meant separation of organized religion from interferring with and dictating governmental policy and, from dictating basic civil liberties and freedoms. It had nothing to do with belief in God, which is an entirely different issue.

Not allowing belief in God to be discussed in public science and other education is equivilant to not allowing the views of Bob Dylan, Einstein, Tolstoy, Newton, Shakespeare, DaVinci, Aristotle, Plato and Socrates to be discussed, as they all profess belief in God, along with well over three quarters of all notable persons in human history.

In short, modern liberal notions of so-called "separation" of church and state are as myopic and fundamentally, historically naive as the fundamentalist horshit of Pat Robertson ever hoped to be.

--Richard Aberdeen
www.FreedomTracks.com

(we believe in freedom of speech for both believers and non-believers in God and everyone else, a concept apparently entirely foreign to modern so-called "progressives")

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Jesus was very clear...
Posted by: jasonh27 on Jan 1, 2008 12:34 AM   
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Jesus spoke of creating his father's kingdom on earth.
Kingdom.
That means monarchy.
Not his father's republic.
Not his father's democracy.
His father’s kingdom.
Kingdoms almost always have an official religion.

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Seek the simplicity
Posted by: saltoafronteira on Jan 2, 2008 5:45 AM   
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The so called separation beetween political and religious powers sistematically comes along with the people's need for consolation or support from fear or suffering, or both.
Enforce peace and prosperity, and societies naturally tend to laicism and freedom.
Enforce war, fear, poverty and uncertainty, and you will certainly see that separation thin out until it disappears, as well as freedom.
And that is, I dare say, a natural law from most civilizations, at least the ones inspired in the old testament.
The confucian, animic, budist and other religious structures dont seem to fit in that pattern, but we do.
Anyway, fear and poverty are the best humus for autoritarism, both political and religious and, therefore, for servitude.
On that, all the sectarians and unscrupulous politicians from the old testament pattern civilizations are, objectivelly, allies.
And what worries me is that convergence of interests.
In fact I believe that wahabic sunnis, radical christians from the USA, and others, in one hand, and saudi princes the neocons and other political and economical forces in the other hand, have some sort of coincidental, if not articulated, agenda.
It's an old fight that prolonged for centuries, from the crusades, and the templars, and the great divisions in church, and the divine right monarchies against the french and european liberals and masons, and the inner destruction of the old refined muslim civilization, by these wahabics that represent, in islamic terms, the equivalent of the dominican counter reform catholics, or the puritan protestants.
Have no illusions: the real clash is not between civilizations, but INSIDE those civilizations, between forces that defend freedom and laicism, and the ones that defend the opposite.
And these last ones, so far, have kept the iniciative on their side and, worse of all, seem to have switched from domestic to global intervention, in alliance the ones with the others.
Dont forget that the wahabic task force (the OPEC) is financing the christian and israelian radicals by keeping selling their oil in dollars. Who would say, hein? Religious "rivals" financing the "enemy".
By the way, they are not the only one doing it. The chinese are doing it too but, I believe, for very different reasons.

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SOCIETY OF FREE TRADERS in PENNSYLVANIA
Posted by: Chaos Inc. on Jan 3, 2008 7:57 AM   
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The Honorable Sir William Penn first proprietary governor of Pennsylvania seperated church and state in Pennsylvania by not allowing any tax exempt status for churches or other religious institutions.

This policy ensured that the concept of "Equal Justice Under the Law" was a fact.

All you need to do is see how the "so called non-profits" flurish while "We the People" suffer under heavy taxes and regulations etc. to understand how our laws have been perverted against the common man.

The term commonwealth meant that the wealth was in the hands of the common people... there was no licenses or permits required to do business in the provence... any injuried person had right and recourse at the COMMON LAW for injuries done to them or their property in the course of their daily lives.

Todays statutory law is custom made for the legal profession to the detriment of the people; this is why so many feel that they have been raped and plundered.

Can you name some thing that we are free to do in this so called "Free Country" without a license or permit?

Restore the common law... No Victim No Crime...

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