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'War on Christmas' Nonsense is a War on Secularists

Beneath the laughable charge is a poisonous suggestion that 'our way of life' is threatened by foreigners.
December 21, 2007  |  
 
 
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My thanks to the kind reader who sent me the program from this year's Christmas carol service at the Old Royal Naval College chapel in Greenwich. It was written by the Rev Jules Gomes, chaplain of the college, and of Trinity College of Music, and also of the University of Greenwich.

Here is the good chaplain's Christmas message: "More Christians have been martyred for their faith in the last century than in any other period of church history. Yesterday's Herod is today's Richard Dawkins and Polly Toynbee, seeking the total extermination of all forms of Christianity. The great irony is that the greatest opposition to Christ comes from so-called broad-minded people who seek to ban Christmas so that people of other faiths are not offended."

Yes, it is that time of year when secularists, atheists and humanists become the Grinches who stole Christmas. As an honorary associate of the National Secular Society and president of the British Humanist Association, here is my cue to offer you all a rattling good Christmas "Bah, humbug!" Except, of course, it's all utter nonsense. No one is out to ban Christmas or Christianity - not atheists nor other faiths. Yet every year the same urban myths are repeated about the banning of Christmas by some pantomime villain local authority suffering from "political correctness gone mad." King Rat Christmas wreckers are unearthed, and every year these turn out to be garbage stories, but they are stored in the attic for another airing next December.

I had at least five calls from broadcasters this year inviting me to say it would be a jolly good thing if Christmas were rebranded Winterval. That myth began years ago when Birmingham city council tried to spread the festive season across the long winter - though it never replaced Christmas, which came with official celebrations in the middle of it. But the Winterval myth lives on. This year it was joined by this: "God rest ye merry people all, Let nothing go to waste, So let us all this Decemberval, Recycle now with haste." Although written by a vicar for Warrington's Christmas recycling campaign, watch Decemberval enter anti-Christmas demonology.

Christmas opinion polls stir the same pot. Theos, the religious thinktank, found a quarter of adults and over a third of 18- to 24-year-olds couldn't say where Jesus was born. Over half didn't know John the Baptist was Jesus's cousin; over a quarter didn't know who told Mary she was pregnant; and 78% had no idea where Mary and Joseph fled to escape Herod. Even the faithful were ignorant: only 36% of regular churchgoers got all four answers right. I regard this as awful. The loss of classical mythology has made much poetry, art and literature incomprehensible to most people. The loss of Christian mythology would make most European history and painting impenetrable. Secularists do not welcome ignorance as a substitute for declining faith.

Pursuing their annual "atheists are stealing Christmas" riff, a Sunday Telegraph survey of 100 schools found only one in five had a traditional nativity play this year, which is odd considering over a third of primaries are Christian. The sad truth is that some did no play, but others did Scrooge, Arabian Nights, Hansel and Gretel, or the Snow Queen, all also cultural treasures.

British Christians yearn to be martyrs, but frankly atheists are a pretty toothless substitute for lions. In a daft parliamentary debate this month on something called Christianophobia, Mark Pritchard MP accused the politically correct of banning religion from Christmas cards and advent calendars: "Many shoppers find it increasingly difficult to purchase greetings cards that refer to Jesus." Alas, market forces are probably rather stronger than humanist plots: with only 7% of people in church of a Sunday these days, Santa and the Snowman trump the nativity.

Evangelicals started a new myth this year that postage stamps with the Madonna and child are only sold under the counter: you have to ask for them, for fear of offending Muslims and Jews. Stuff and nonsense, retorted the Post Office. But you can bet this one will run and run - along with last year's myth that 70% of offices banned Christmas decorations for multicultural reasons. Another year it was the Red Cross banning cribs.

All this would just be seasonal silliness if it were not cover for a more sinister drumbeat. The right has taken to flying the "Christian" flag in ways that suggest none too subtly that foreigners - Muslims - are stealing our culture and traditions. "They" are stopping "us" celebrating Christmas and teaching Christian stories to our children. When Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society, appeared on GMTV this week, although as usual he denied any atheist plot against Christmas, the theme in about 3,000 emails afterwards was: "We are not Muslims, our culture must not be silenced to avoid offending them."

The BNP has been quick to cash in. In the Christianophobia debate in parliament, the reported case of a BNP Christmas card was raised, "which portrays the holy family on the cover and inside are the words 'Heritage, Tradition and Culture.'" Pritchard warned television firms: "The fear of violence from a particular faith group should not be grounds for hand-selecting or targeting other faith groups who may choose to protest peacefully." Fear of Muslim violence is killing off peaceful Christianity, he implies. But blaming mythical secular political correctness is usually a cover for more sinister suggestions that "our way of life" is under threat from foreigners.

Hastening to defend themselves against the charge, Trevor Phillips, chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission, assembled imams, rabbis, Sikh and Hindu leaders to protest that they had no objection to Christmas, asserting that they sent Christmas cards, they liked cribs, and "it's a great holiday for everyone." Leave Christmas alone was the message, addressed again to the hypothetical politically correct secularists.

But we are innocent. It is the Christians who are stirring this dangerous pot, inventing non-stories, yearning for martyrdom - and worse, fermenting an outraged sense among the mainly secular population that they had better call themselves Christian because, as the BNP says, British "Heritage, Tradition and Culture" (read Kultur) are under threat from Muslims. While pretending to attack us, covertly these Christians stir resentment against immigrants.

As more faith trouble brews, it becomes ever more important not to ban religions, but to keep religion out of all functions of the state. It needs to be taught in schools, acted out in nativity plays, too, if they want - but without dangerously segregating children by their faith in sectarian religious institutions. And at last we have at least one political party leader brave enough to admit, like most people, that he doesn't believe in God.

As for secularists and humanists at Christmas, Dawkins himself told a disappointed BBC interviewer that he loves singing carols. And so do I. Not just Away in a Manger or Oh Little Town nostalgic childhood tunes, but all the enjoyably rich and strange theology of "Lo! He abhors not the Virgin's womb … Veiled in flesh the Godhead see, Hail the incarnate Deity," and other such quaint delights.

Is it hypocritical to sing songs with words whose literal truth you do not believe? Any such sad edict would leave most great love songs, hymns and arias unsung. If the royal family can trill, with solemn faces and gladsome minds, "What can I give him, poor as I am?" then anyone can.
Polly Toynbee is a Guardian columnist.
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Happy Winterval!
Posted by: Cruella on Dec 21, 2007 4:48 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Keep Christmas Pagan!

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Liberating Christmas from Christianity
Posted by: maxw on Dec 21, 2007 5:08 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A sensible solution to the "Christmas" problem from an Episcopalian minister, Raymond J. Lawrence:

Liberating Christmas from Christianity; Let's Take Christ Out of Christmas

[excerpt]
Christians who attempt to build a Christian fence around Christmas,
protecting it from secular and non-Christian influence, actually give
the impression of stinginess and hostility towards the non-Christian
world.

It is time to take Christ out of Christmas, and encourage the whole
world to celebrate the renewal of the life-giving sun (in the northern
hemisphere at least) through candle light, the cutting of greens, and
gift-giving, and to show generosity to others, especially to those in
need. None of these activities require one to be a Christian, nor even
to understand anything about Christianity.

To liberate Christmas from the clutches of Christianity would
demonstrate a generosity of spirit on the part of Christians that
would set a good example in these times of increasing strife between
the various religions of the world.

read the whole article:
http://www.counterpunch.org/lawrence12152007.html

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Christian/Pagan/Roman/Retail Holidays
Posted by: sasquuatch55 on Dec 22, 2007 6:36 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's all wrong;manipulated and perverted by man!

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Fighting over the last dead rat?
Posted by: Sojourner on Dec 24, 2007 2:48 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comedian Bill Cosby once remarked about his then two pre-school daughters that they never stopped fighting. And that "they'd fight over the last dead rat." Annoying as that is for a parent, we are not surprised when small children fight over nothing.

But when grown ups, especially those who speak for tradition and culture, fight over nothing, isn't that a sign of immaturity?

Christmas is not in any danger of being ignored or overlooked. Like little kids, those willing to fight and be martyred in the name of saving Christmas, have too much time on their hands and nothing better to do.

When even a secularist can find a better way to observe the season, it speaks volumes for the richness of the holiday. And time for some to grow up.

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That side of the pond too, eh?
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Dec 24, 2007 3:36 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I thought it was just an American thing, though I'm sure it's worse over here.

All religions are pretty much the same in that their wackiest members love to brag about how they're being persecuted for their beliefs, and in doing so imply that they are superior. That's what the holidays are all about, if you think about it.

I say "Enjoy the holidays" to people I don't know, mostly with Hanukkah in mind, since there are a decent number of Jews in the Northeast, and Hanukkah has run alongside Xmas as long as I can remember. To be honest, I'm don't even think of the Muslims, the secularists, or the Kwansists, though perhaps I should.

I'm not blaming the Jews for killing Xmas. In fact, I like them, along with the Chinese and others, because they help keep some things open on Xmas, in case I want to get out to eat or play the slots.

I do, however, hate Adam Sandler and his friggin' song, but I swear on a stack of Bibles that I would hate him just as much if he weren't Jewish. He's turning me into an atheist...I mean, what sort of god would allow someone so annoying to walk the earth?

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» RE: That side of the pond too, eh? Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line

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All I want
Posted by: walldodger1969 on Dec 24, 2007 4:18 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For Xmas is the ability to be an INYOURFACEATHEIST..

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» RE: All I want Posted by: Turiye

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Void Bless Ye Merry Gentilemen
Posted by: jmmartin on Dec 24, 2007 4:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Excellent post, Ms. Toynbee! Of course, the chief cheer leader in all this anti-secularist nonsense if that King of Comedy himself, Bill O'Really. Personally, I think he should be boiled in his own oil with a stake of holly through his heart. --Ebeneezer McGrinch.

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bitsfick
Posted by: bitsfick on Dec 24, 2007 5:08 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If these war on Christmas morons took the time to study the history of their own religion they would know that the birth of Christ was originally celebrated on Easter Sunday. Mankind has been celebrating the changing of the sun for thousands of years before the supposed birth of Christ, the early Christians tried to ban the celebration, and when that failed they took it as there own. The problem with being a good Christian is the first thing you have to do is to stop thinking.

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Christmas is an American Corporatist Holiday
Posted by: leland61 on Dec 24, 2007 5:17 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christmas has little to do with the birth of Jesus. Christmas in America has to do with trying to make the sales numbers before the end of the year.

My suggestion is to opt out of the corporatist program. That's what I've done and have suggested to everyone I know. Just stop it.

When the sales start, just say: "Bah Humbug" and continue.

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Merry Christmas Everybody!
Posted by: Cooltruth on Dec 24, 2007 5:20 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They won't 'steal' my Christmas holiday! What a bunch of politically correct fools to worry about whether anybody is 'offended' by wishing them a 'Merry Christmas'... If they're going to be THAT easily offended, then maybe they're needing to be offended more often until they become somewhat more desensitized! Must people be 'offended' by such petty things as what is said as a pleasant seasonal greeting? Whoever is offended that easily needs to grow thicker skin because there are worse things they will hear in life than merely a Christmas greeting.

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» RE: Merry Christmas Everybody! Posted by: particle
» Right on, particle! Posted by: morticia
» Did you even read the article? Posted by: morticia
» RE: Merry Christmas Everybody! Posted by: lepidopteryx

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It takes a grinch to say "Happy Holidays"
Posted by: hagwind on Dec 24, 2007 5:26 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just got one of those multiply forwarded e-mails from an acquaintance. The gist was "How dare people wish me 'Happy Holidays'? It's Christmas, and it celebrates the birth of Christ." I'm tired enough of this crap that I didn't e-mail back that "Hey, I'm not a Christian and I don't celebrate Christmas (although I do find it pretty damn hard to ignore it), and when I say 'Happy Holidays' I'm trying to include everyone, no matter what particular holiday they celebrate."

If anyone wants to assign responsibility for "ruining Christmas," they be well advised to start with all the corporate entities who work 24/7/365 to persuade us that the only way to show love, friendship, or respect for another human being is to spend a bunch of money on them -- and that we're being dissed when someone doesn't spend a bundle on us.

Good to see Polly Toynbee's words on this board, btw. The woman can write.

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Jingo bells, Jingo bells....
Posted by: Wexler on Dec 24, 2007 7:04 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'll let you write the rest because the rest of what I was thinking was too ugly.

May everyone have a happy holiday in celebration of the Ultimate Ground of Being, however you recognize that concept (or not).

-Wexler

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Merry Commerce, Everyone!!!
Posted by: ohb0b on Dec 24, 2007 7:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christmas has long ago been stripped of any religious significance by greed run amok. It has very little to do with the birth of a baby in a manger in Bethlehem 2000 years ago. As the author points out, it is market forces, not some vast left-wing conspiracy that is responsible for the dearth of religious themed greeting cards at the chemist's.

Th author is also correct in pointing out that the "War on Christmas" actually has little to do with religion, and much to do with xenophobia.
Most people (even in the US) are NOT superstitious, evangelical, take the Bible literally morons. We are culturally Christian, in the sense that when we are vaguely familiar with the Christian doctrine, and give it a nodding assent.
Like the sample he mentioned, most people do not know more than the basic tenets of the faith, if that. Ask someone who gets upset when the ACLU sues a cracker judge over a 10 commandments display in the courthouse to recite the commandments. The judge probably can't name more than a couple himself.
A couple years ago, a local (Seattle) radio station asked people to call in and name five books of the Bible. It took over a dozen callers before someone could list Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, or even Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Acts.
Most of the soldiers in this war are not devout Christians, but people with marginal ties to the church. Their lives are out of control, they are frightened of losing their jobs, their standard of living, and what little privilege their corporate masters grant them. Foreigners and Muslims become a convenient scapegoat for all evil. It's an old story, but like culture, history is also not remembered.

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» Jesus loved sinners Posted by: ohb0b

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Why Has "Happy Holidays" and "Season's Greetings" Suddenly Become Offensive?
Posted by: Libertine on Dec 24, 2007 7:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm in my late 40s and I've heard people say "Happy Holidays" and "Season's Greetings" during my entire lifetime, and I'm sure people did before I was born.

When I was a little kid in the sixties, no one had any problems with this whatsoever; everyone rightly saw it as a way to include everyone, regardless of their personal beliefs, with one's holiday cheer.

So why do the fundies act as if these phrases were specially invented in the last five years by "Godless" liberals for the sole purpose of persecuting them?

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It worked for the Nazis
Posted by: zooeyhall on Dec 24, 2007 7:40 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Beneath the laughable charge is a poisonous suggestion that 'our way of life' is threatened by foreigners."

Screaming that we are being threatened by (unspecified) "dark forces" sure worked for Hitler in his rise to power.

For the "dark forces" just insert your favorite bogeyman: terrorists, ay-rabs, liberals, secularists, communists, fluoridated water...

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Not saying "Merry Christmas" is offensive, but
Posted by: Ellie1 on Dec 24, 2007 8:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
having a murderer in the White House is just fine. Christians, go f yourselves.

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Shell Game
Posted by: liblady2008 on Dec 24, 2007 8:14 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm sure some zealots are really worked up about this because they are...well crazy, but the Bill O'Reilly's of the media just use this to deflect attention away from more serious issues they don't want to highlight.

Nothing has changed in my lifetime, 'Happy Holidays" was never seen as some kind of evil plot till recently. It's much ado about nothing.

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Brava! Good article! Excellent points!
Posted by: left-leaning-libertarian on Dec 24, 2007 8:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And very apropos the hypocritical right-wing Christian "war on Christmas" BS here in the States which is more about lining their own pockets than "defending the culture"--whatever the heck that means! It's nothing but a sick joke and I'm not laughing.

I am a free-thinking ex-Protestant/ex-Catholic/ex-Jewish agnostic, but I still love this time of year! Anything that encourages people to at least THINK about peace and be nicer to each other can't be all bad! The music is wonderful, the sights, the smells, the food, the fellowship!

Perhaps the problem for many is the rampant hyper-commercialization of the season; the cynical, materialistic, manipulative, greed-headed and ultimately misanthropic mind-set that turns this wonderful, simple time of year into a feeding frenzy of conspicuous consumption on steriods. (Where's Dickens when we need him?) I wonder how extravagently many of these bloviating bigots with their shrill "war on Christmas" rhetoric celebrate the holiday they claim to hold sacred? Is it any wonder so many people get depressed and feel left out?

For the sake of peace and better universal mental health, a way needs to be found to divorce ourselves from the commercialism, simplify things, slow down and listen to the joyful "still small voice" of the season, regardless of one's faith (or lack thereof). For my part, I no longer have any sort of TV connection; no cable, no satelite, no annoying commercials; I will not be a passive consumer nor will I allow cynical strangers to manipulate my emotions and desires or dumb-down my news.

I wish you all, peace; may good will and understanding increase and draw us ever closer so that, in spite of our differences, we may work together for the betterment of all humanity.

Jerald Thomas Hawhee

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O Little Town of Bethlehem
Posted by: wawa on Dec 24, 2007 8:34 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
O Little Town of Bethlehem

Imprisoned you now lie.

Above thy deep and silent grief,

Surveillance drones now fly.

And through thy old streets standeth,

A huge illegal Wall.

The hopes and dreams that peace will come

Are dashed in this year’s Fall.



O morning stars together,

Look down upon this crime.

The people sing to God the King

But justice, who can find?

Yes, Christ was born of Mary,

God’s love remains supreme.

But mortals sleep as children weep,

Their pain is never seen.



How silently, how silently,

The world and Church protests.

As checkpoints grow and towns confined,

As settlers steal and rest.

No ear may hear the outcry,

As Israel’s Wall is built.

While meek souls muse, Apartheid rules -

We speak or share in guilt.



O Holy Child of Bethlehem,

Give strength to us, we pray.

Cast out our fears and open eyes.

O give us voice today!

We stand against injustice,

The Occupation must end.

May justice rule our Lord’s birthplace,

May now Christ’s peace descend.



Did you find that adaptation of “O Little Town” by Stephen Leah unsettling or even shocking? Then it is probably because of the way Christmas was sentimentalized in the 19th Century. Many of our popular carols were written then. If people in the 19th Century sentimentalized Christmas, people in the 20th Century trivialised Christmas. Naïve romanticism led to cynical commercialism. What will happen to Christmas in the 21st Century is really up to you and me.

The Rest WAWA BLOG Dec. 25, 2007:

http://www.wearewideawake.org/

VISIT Bethlehem on YOUTUBE:





http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=d1FaWE1SIZk&feature=related

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Meh. This unbloody secular-sectarian strafe needs a diplomatic solution.
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Dec 24, 2007 9:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Over half didn't know John the Baptist was Jesus's cousin; over a quarter didn't know who told Mary she was pregnant; and 78% had no idea where Mary and Joseph fled to escape Herod. Even the faithful were ignorant: only 36% of regular churchgoers got all four answers right.

All the answers are rote from a fourth a 4th grade pageant play except the first. The fourth is a tad esoteric, especially considering the weighting of modern pop services towards singing and hopping, rather than reading and considering.

I don't get what all the fuss is about, except that it appears to be human nature to enjoy fussing. This is a very festive time of the year: I get to spend precious time with my family, try my hand at cooking a ham, drive around town with my wife and look at the lights, and exchange long letters, pictures, and (if I'm lucky) some peanut brittle with grandparents one more year.

I roll my eyes at the local "It's OK to say Merry Christmas" button campaign. I mean duh; of course it is, silly. So says the first ammendment, a part of a document I'd much prefer more people become more literate with than the italicized subject of the author's opening dialogue. But that's just me.

So here's my diplomatic solution: if someone with a big smile on their face has the nerve to get up in yours and roar/shout "Merry Christmas" as a challenge or even in good nature, it's really, really ok to just say "No thanks", or even "Piss off, wanker". Both of you may then go about your Merry ways.

Dispute resolved, Obama-style (by talking to your friends and enemies!).

In the meantime, I'm going to do my best to be thankful for the joys I get out of life, in spite of the great number of things wrong in the world.

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pro christmas- anti-commercial
Posted by: robchapman on Dec 24, 2007 9:27 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The "Christians" who defend Christmas customs should all be buggered.

Where does the Christmas tree, reindeer, Santa, food orgies and exorbitant gift giving appear in the Bible or in Christian tradition.

In the Christmas Carol, Charles Dickens' seminal piece in the secularizing of Christmas, the emphasis of the Christmas spirit is on giving and especially in giving to the poor.

Today's defenders of Christmas defend the glitz, the hype, the materialism and most the GROSS PROFITS associated with Christmas.

The "Christian" Christmas in America is as reflective of Christianity as the Israelites worship of Golden Calf is of the Ten Commandments.

Robert Chapman
Lansing, NY

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Wouldn't it be nice
Posted by: willymack on Dec 24, 2007 9:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If people read and digested what was written by people with REAL MINDS, AND NOTHING TO GAIN OR LOSE by expressing their opinions, rather than by charlatans, hustlers, and crazies with profit and/or control of others in their thoughts? How many of those "christians" who feel so set upon know anything about what Bertrand Russell or Carl Sagan (to name but two) had to say about the subject? When is all this silly crap going to cease? Our nation was set up as a SECULAR one for a damn good reason, one you can see every day in the rantings of religious halfwits.

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Who Stole December 25?
Posted by: LeaderofMen on Dec 24, 2007 9:51 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is hilarious.

Christmas in the US has been a secular holiday for decades. Decades. It's only since the fundamentalists took over the GOP that it's an issue now.

But the real issue is this. December 25th is NOT Jesus's birthday. No way. No how. Even the Bible points out that the birth of Jesus did NOT take place in the wintertime. In addition, it is a matter of history that Mithra was born on the 25th, along with an plethora of other gods. Jesus was only the latest one to have that date attached to that myth.

Clearly, due to ignorance and politics this is a made up issue. Just like the entire mythology associated with Christianity.

I laugh in your face Christians. Those of you who are making this an issue are pathetic. I've done the research and know you are all liars.

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» RE: Who Stole December 25? Posted by: Lauren

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Me too...
Posted by: ohb0b on Dec 24, 2007 10:42 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yeah, I'm in my fifties. I have heard the phrases "Happy Holidays" and Season's Greetings" all my life, and wondered what all the fuss is about. My mother had a phrasre: "Making mountains out of molehills." It applies here.
I refuse to play into their victim game anymore. If they want martyrdom, they can lok elsewhere, as I have better things to do.

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If Only
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman on Dec 24, 2007 10:45 AM   
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The people who complain about Christianity or Christians being under attack by ANYONE are reversing reality. The fact is that Christians have attacked the rest of the world for centuries, leading to such absurdities as Christian churches in Africa, Asia, and even in remote tropical islands. Christian missionaries, as shock troops for the imperialists, have done more harm to our planet, and to indigenous people and their cultures, than anything. The world would be a much better place without Christians* and their Christianity; too bad their claims of self-endangerment are not true.

* By "Christians" I mean those who actively practice Christianity, not those who were merely born Christian.

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No war against Xtians, but some language has changed
Posted by: seltzer on Dec 24, 2007 11:30 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I grew up in small-town Vermont in the 80s saying "Merry Christmas" to everyone, and though I'd hear "happy holidays" and "season's greetings," they weren't the most common phrase. When I went off into the big world (to a college that's about 40% Jewish) and then to Boston, I noticed immediately that it wasn't kosher, if you will, to say "Merry Christmas" anymore. I really don't care one way or the other, b/c I'm a complete athiest, but let's be fair, in a tolerant multi-faith society, we tend to tone down overtly religious sentiments so as to not be exclusive in our speech. Any fool knows there is no war on Christmas by secularists or athiests, Jews or Muslims, but let's not pretend that there has been no cultural shift, however subtle, away from Christian traditions. Sometimes I miss being able to just say "merry Christmas" and not have to worry about my audience, but it's a small price to pay for living in the fascinating, diverse world I now inhabit.

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Keeping The Troops In Line
Posted by: IndispensiBill on Dec 24, 2007 11:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think all this "War On Christmas" stuff is really aimed more at ultra-right Christians than at secularists. The doomsayers don't really want better treatment from non-Christians. Indeed, the more "oppression" of Christians they can point to, the better it is for their agenda.

Think about it. What do people do in times of war and other dire crises? They hunker down, put aside their differences and rally behind their strongest leaders.

By cultivating the idea that they are an oppressed people facing extinction at the hands of the Evil Other, the troops can be manipulated to do almost anything.

But if they were allowed to believe the truth--that their leaders pretty much run the whole show already--they might begin to wonder at those leaders' piety, sincerity and motives, or otherwise stray from following their playbook; i.e. to think for themselves.

Can't have that.

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The "Holy" Highway
Posted by: graffen48 on Dec 24, 2007 3:30 PM   
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Have you seen the latest news story about the people praying on the side of interstate 35, claiming its a highway mentioned in the bible??
Lol, you can't make this stuff up!!!

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» RE: The "Holy" Highway Posted by: Lauren

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Happy Tuesday
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line on Dec 24, 2007 6:55 PM   
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Fine you do not want to acknowlege X mas.... Just say happy Tuesday and ALLOW the person that wished you a Merry christmas to be Joyful..If I say Merry Christmas it is not because I wish to offend, I am offering you a greeting from my point of view and I wish to wish you good will and nothing more. What is so offensive about that? So from here where I sit, Merry Christmas.....

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» RE: Happy Tuesday Posted by: Lauren

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Political Correctness: Celebrate Christmas without Apology
Posted by: riotoustanpdx on Dec 24, 2007 9:46 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To be concerned that any religious ceremony or celebration is an offense to anyone is the opposite of Political Correctness.

If we are a free republic or a free society on either side of the Pond, we ought to act truly free to worship and believe as we are, and as we do without apology to anyone. It follows that anyone offended by the free expression of religious beliefs in others acts against the freedom of religion everywhere.

To ridicule the religious beliefs of another is to use a subtle form of intimidation against that group of believers. This includes the tactics used by atheists, Secularists and Humanists who insist on referring to Christianity and Christmas as "myth."

For those who have demystified Christmas in the process of commercializing the tradition and stripping that historic event (the birth of the man who left in this world the enigma of the Shroud of Turin) of its religious meaning, perhaps it is time that a new Winter Solstice celebration be instituted.

Perhaps it is long overdue that "the Holiday Season" is divided into separate dates, leaving December 21st to the secular community and December 25th for the religious community to celebrate as each finds appropriate. Santa Claus and the reindeer can join the rest of the Saturnalia Traditions,while Midnight Mass, depictions of a baby in a manger, sacred songs, and meditations of Peace on Earth may still be appreciated by the faithful without the ridicule, dissolution, diminution, and disrespect that has been the trend in recent years.

It is exceedingly past the hour for the disbelievers of every genre to extricate themselves from any discussion of Christmas; go start your own solstice holiday.

Thomas A. Nagy

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» Christmas without Apology Posted by: Kafwood

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CHRIST - MAS IS A LIE: beginning, middle and end
Posted by: caru on Dec 24, 2007 9:48 PM   
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jesus F'ING christ stole his work from tibet, if he ever lived. the jews and the christians and all the monotheists have a very dark god.

F CHRISTMAS.

enjoy the dark. turn off the light. check it out. dark is fun!

and for all you who hate the F word .... check out this enlightening video from an indian mystic named osho ...

search: osho, strange consequences on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D7rWLzloOI

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I Want To Celebrate *Everybody's* Holidays!
Posted by: Camilla Cracchiolo on Dec 25, 2007 2:07 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So, the other day, I was talking to my sister in Michigan (I'm in California). She's a Christian, I'm an atheist but we get along fine. And she asked me: "Do you say "Happy Holidays" or "Merry Christmas". I told her it depended on who I was talking to: I usually said "Merry Xmas" to folks of Christian background and "Happy Holidays" to Jews and others.

She told me it's a big deal in Michigan all over talk radio, the usual junk about evil secularists causing people to cancel their Xmas office parties (which are usually pretty sick anyway, IMHO, and maybe people are better off without.) She's pretty sick of the whole mess, herself.

So I told her: I think we should get everybody's holidays off! The fairest way is not to discriminate at all and celebrate everybody's! If it's a major holiday where they close the offices in the country of origin of anybody in your community, I want it off. With pay.

I want the secular holidays (New Year's Day, President's day, Martin Luther King Day, Veteran's Day, Memorial Day,) PLUS I want Xmas, Easter, Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanna, the end of Ramadan, Chinese New Year and Buddha's birthday. (Yes, Buddha's Birthday is a holiday here in Los Angeles's Koreatown where one of the most important Buddhist temples is by my house. Every year, there is a big sign stretched end to end: "Happy Buddha's Birthday".Dunno much about it, but I want it!) I don't know the big Hindu holidays, but I want them too!

My sister laughed and agreed and I think this is one way to deal with religious stupidity when it comes up. What working class person will argue with more *paid* days off?? If some fool insists on not taking the day off on somebody else's religious day, well they can keep the coffee shops open!

Do you know that in the Middle Ages, serfs, in addition to Sundays off had 35 Holy Feast Days that they didn't have to work??? How is it that poor oppressed serfs have it better than us??

Give us more Holidays!

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I can't believe it's happening in England
Posted by: drcyflowers on Dec 25, 2007 11:13 AM   
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Wow. I thought only the trailer trash in the deep South of the USA were stupid enough to fall for this "war on Christmas" nonsense. I thought the Brits were more sceptical than that.

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guess where I hear teh msot about this: Alternet
Posted by: kenhymes on Dec 25, 2007 1:56 PM   
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Most people, barring a few cranks and the pundits with no better ideas this month, we would almost never hear about this garbage if it wasn't for Alternet.

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you can thank the Catholics for this mess
Posted by: gerdhansel on Dec 26, 2007 10:04 AM   
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Roman Catholic missionaries to northern and western Europe deserve all the credit for absorbing pagan holidays into church tradition in order to convert the Franks and other Germanic tribes to Christianity.

The Germanic celebration of the sun’s return called Yule became a celebration of the birth of Christ called Christmas; the Celtic festival of the returning dead known as Samhain (pronounced Sow-in) became All Saints Day, All Hallows Eve, and finally Halloween.

Protestant groups like the Puritans wanted nothing to do with either Christmas or Halloween, which were considered heretical “Popish” excuses for human excess. They were also vehemently opposed to a peculiar Catholic Easter tradition called the Passion Play.

Early Puritan settlers in New England wanted nothing to do with pagan holidays grafted onto Church tradition to placate the masses. An early hallmark of all Calvinist sects was the doctrine of “Sola Scripture,” literally “Only Scriptures,” which limited Christian beliefs and traditions to the contents of the Bible and shunned all other traditions.

As more Anglican and Catholic settlers came to America, they brought traditions like Christmas and Halloween with them. Over time, the descendents of the early Puritans and other Calvinist settlers rediscovered these forbidden holidays.

But American Calvinist and Evangelical sects remained steadfastly opposed to Passion Plays until the advent of motion pictures once again popularized this historically Catholic tradition. Hollywood brought Passion Plays to the Baptists, Congregationalists and Presbyterians in the form of “The Greatest Story Ever Told,” “Ben Hur,” and “Jesus of Nazareth,” films that had the good sense to portray the final chapters of the Gospels in something resembling the proper context.

Mel Gibson finally broke down the old barriers created by the Protestant Reformation with his warts-and-all Catholic gore fest, “The Passion of the Christ,” which celebrated all the “Popish” heresies that sent the Puritans packing to New England centuries ago.

Wherever Mad Mel had a choice between Catholic tradition and the source material (i.e., the New Testament), he went with the worst elements of Catholic tradition.

Thus Jesus is beaten senseless from the time he is arrested until he is delivered to the Sanhedrin (completely inaccurate, he was only struck once for supposely disrespecting the high priest, and made a stink about it.)

Romans are portrayed in a more sympathetic light than the Jewish priests (which is nonsense, the Romans could've cared less. Imagine Mary Magdalene appealing to a Centurion about the Sanhedrin's treatment of Jesus, how ridiculous can you get.)

And Pontius Pilate is portrayed as a "Mensch" (actually, he got spooked by his wife's bad dream. The Romans were a superstitious lot.)

And the Baptists went to see Mad Mel's film in droves. Cotton Mather would've gone ballistic. So it seems Christianity had come full circle, and the Druids have won after all. So it would seem.

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Happy Winterval!
Posted by: Cruella on Dec 21, 2007 4:48 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Keep Christmas Pagan!

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Liberating Christmas from Christianity
Posted by: maxw on Dec 21, 2007 5:08 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A sensible solution to the "Christmas" problem from an Episcopalian minister, Raymond J. Lawrence:

Liberating Christmas from Christianity; Let's Take Christ Out of Christmas

[excerpt]
Christians who attempt to build a Christian fence around Christmas,
protecting it from secular and non-Christian influence, actually give
the impression of stinginess and hostility towards the non-Christian
world.

It is time to take Christ out of Christmas, and encourage the whole
world to celebrate the renewal of the life-giving sun (in the northern
hemisphere at least) through candle light, the cutting of greens, and
gift-giving, and to show generosity to others, especially to those in
need. None of these activities require one to be a Christian, nor even
to understand anything about Christianity.

To liberate Christmas from the clutches of Christianity would
demonstrate a generosity of spirit on the part of Christians that
would set a good example in these times of increasing strife between
the various religions of the world.

read the whole article:
http://www.counterpunch.org/lawrence12152007.html

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Christian/Pagan/Roman/Retail Holidays
Posted by: sasquuatch55 on Dec 22, 2007 6:36 AM   
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It's all wrong;manipulated and perverted by man!

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Fighting over the last dead rat?
Posted by: Sojourner on Dec 24, 2007 2:48 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comedian Bill Cosby once remarked about his then two pre-school daughters that they never stopped fighting. And that "they'd fight over the last dead rat." Annoying as that is for a parent, we are not surprised when small children fight over nothing.

But when grown ups, especially those who speak for tradition and culture, fight over nothing, isn't that a sign of immaturity?

Christmas is not in any danger of being ignored or overlooked. Like little kids, those willing to fight and be martyred in the name of saving Christmas, have too much time on their hands and nothing better to do.

When even a secularist can find a better way to observe the season, it speaks volumes for the richness of the holiday. And time for some to grow up.

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That side of the pond too, eh?
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Dec 24, 2007 3:36 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I thought it was just an American thing, though I'm sure it's worse over here.

All religions are pretty much the same in that their wackiest members love to brag about how they're being persecuted for their beliefs, and in doing so imply that they are superior. That's what the holidays are all about, if you think about it.

I say "Enjoy the holidays" to people I don't know, mostly with Hanukkah in mind, since there are a decent number of Jews in the Northeast, and Hanukkah has run alongside Xmas as long as I can remember. To be honest, I'm don't even think of the Muslims, the secularists, or the Kwansists, though perhaps I should.

I'm not blaming the Jews for killing Xmas. In fact, I like them, along with the Chinese and others, because they help keep some things open on Xmas, in case I want to get out to eat or play the slots.

I do, however, hate Adam Sandler and his friggin' song, but I swear on a stack of Bibles that I would hate him just as much if he weren't Jewish. He's turning me into an atheist...I mean, what sort of god would allow someone so annoying to walk the earth?

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» RE: That side of the pond too, eh? Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line

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All I want
Posted by: walldodger1969 on Dec 24, 2007 4:18 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For Xmas is the ability to be an INYOURFACEATHEIST..

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» RE: All I want Posted by: Turiye

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Void Bless Ye Merry Gentilemen
Posted by: jmmartin on Dec 24, 2007 4:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Excellent post, Ms. Toynbee! Of course, the chief cheer leader in all this anti-secularist nonsense if that King of Comedy himself, Bill O'Really. Personally, I think he should be boiled in his own oil with a stake of holly through his heart. --Ebeneezer McGrinch.

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bitsfick
Posted by: bitsfick on Dec 24, 2007 5:08 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If these war on Christmas morons took the time to study the history of their own religion they would know that the birth of Christ was originally celebrated on Easter Sunday. Mankind has been celebrating the changing of the sun for thousands of years before the supposed birth of Christ, the early Christians tried to ban the celebration, and when that failed they took it as there own. The problem with being a good Christian is the first thing you have to do is to stop thinking.

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Christmas is an American Corporatist Holiday
Posted by: leland61 on Dec 24, 2007 5:17 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christmas has little to do with the birth of Jesus. Christmas in America has to do with trying to make the sales numbers before the end of the year.

My suggestion is to opt out of the corporatist program. That's what I've done and have suggested to everyone I know. Just stop it.

When the sales start, just say: "Bah Humbug" and continue.

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Merry Christmas Everybody!
Posted by: Cooltruth on Dec 24, 2007 5:20 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They won't 'steal' my Christmas holiday! What a bunch of politically correct fools to worry about whether anybody is 'offended' by wishing them a 'Merry Christmas'... If they're going to be THAT easily offended, then maybe they're needing to be offended more often until they become somewhat more desensitized! Must people be 'offended' by such petty things as what is said as a pleasant seasonal greeting? Whoever is offended that easily needs to grow thicker skin because there are worse things they will hear in life than merely a Christmas greeting.

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» RE: Merry Christmas Everybody! Posted by: particle
» Right on, particle! Posted by: morticia
» Did you even read the article? Posted by: morticia
» RE: Merry Christmas Everybody! Posted by: lepidopteryx

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It takes a grinch to say "Happy Holidays"
Posted by: hagwind on Dec 24, 2007 5:26 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just got one of those multiply forwarded e-mails from an acquaintance. The gist was "How dare people wish me 'Happy Holidays'? It's Christmas, and it celebrates the birth of Christ." I'm tired enough of this crap that I didn't e-mail back that "Hey, I'm not a Christian and I don't celebrate Christmas (although I do find it pretty damn hard to ignore it), and when I say 'Happy Holidays' I'm trying to include everyone, no matter what particular holiday they celebrate."

If anyone wants to assign responsibility for "ruining Christmas," they be well advised to start with all the corporate entities who work 24/7/365 to persuade us that the only way to show love, friendship, or respect for another human being is to spend a bunch of money on them -- and that we're being dissed when someone doesn't spend a bundle on us.

Good to see Polly Toynbee's words on this board, btw. The woman can write.

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Jingo bells, Jingo bells....
Posted by: Wexler on Dec 24, 2007 7:04 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'll let you write the rest because the rest of what I was thinking was too ugly.

May everyone have a happy holiday in celebration of the Ultimate Ground of Being, however you recognize that concept (or not).

-Wexler

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Merry Commerce, Everyone!!!
Posted by: ohb0b on Dec 24, 2007 7:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Christmas has long ago been stripped of any religious significance by greed run amok. It has very little to do with the birth of a baby in a manger in Bethlehem 2000 years ago. As the author points out, it is market forces, not some vast left-wing conspiracy that is responsible for the dearth of religious themed greeting cards at the chemist's.

Th author is also correct in pointing out that the "War on Christmas" actually has little to do with religion, and much to do with xenophobia.
Most people (even in the US) are NOT superstitious, evangelical, take the Bible literally morons. We are culturally Christian, in the sense that when we are vaguely familiar with the Christian doctrine, and give it a nodding assent.
Like the sample he mentioned, most people do not know more than the basic tenets of the faith, if that. Ask someone who gets upset when the ACLU sues a cracker judge over a 10 commandments display in the courthouse to recite the commandments. The judge probably can't name more than a couple himself.
A couple years ago, a local (Seattle) radio station asked people to call in and name five books of the Bible. It took over a dozen callers before someone could list Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, or even Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Acts.
Most of the soldiers in this war are not devout Christians, but people with marginal ties to the church. Their lives are out of control, they are frightened of losing their jobs, their standard of living, and what little privilege their corporate masters grant them. Foreigners and Muslims become a convenient scapegoat for all evil. It's an old story, but like culture, history is also not remembered.

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» Jesus loved sinners Posted by: ohb0b

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Why Has "Happy Holidays" and "Season's Greetings" Suddenly Become Offensive?
Posted by: Libertine on Dec 24, 2007 7:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm in my late 40s and I've heard people say "Happy Holidays" and "Season's Greetings" during my entire lifetime, and I'm sure people did before I was born.

When I was a little kid in the sixties, no one had any problems with this whatsoever; everyone rightly saw it as a way to include everyone, regardless of their personal beliefs, with one's holiday cheer.

So why do the fundies act as if these phrases were specially invented in the last five years by "Godless" liberals for the sole purpose of persecuting them?

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It worked for the Nazis
Posted by: zooeyhall on Dec 24, 2007 7:40 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Beneath the laughable charge is a poisonous suggestion that 'our way of life' is threatened by foreigners."

Screaming that we are being threatened by (unspecified) "dark forces" sure worked for Hitler in his rise to power.

For the "dark forces" just insert your favorite bogeyman: terrorists, ay-rabs, liberals, secularists, communists, fluoridated water...

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Not saying "Merry Christmas" is offensive, but
Posted by: Ellie1 on Dec 24, 2007 8:09 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
having a murderer in the White House is just fine. Christians, go f yourselves.

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Shell Game
Posted by: liblady2008 on Dec 24, 2007 8:14 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm sure some zealots are really worked up about this because they are...well crazy, but the Bill O'Reilly's of the media just use this to deflect attention away from more serious issues they don't want to highlight.

Nothing has changed in my lifetime, 'Happy Holidays" was never seen as some kind of evil plot till recently. It's much ado about nothing.

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Brava! Good article! Excellent points!
Posted by: left-leaning-libertarian on Dec 24, 2007 8:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And very apropos the hypocritical right-wing Christian "war on Christmas" BS here in the States which is more about lining their own pockets than "defending the culture"--whatever the heck that means! It's nothing but a sick joke and I'm not laughing.

I am a free-thinking ex-Protestant/ex-Catholic/ex-Jewish agnostic, but I still love this time of year! Anything that encourages people to at least THINK about peace and be nicer to each other can't be all bad! The music is wonderful, the sights, the smells, the food, the fellowship!

Perhaps the problem for many is the rampant hyper-commercialization of the season; the cynical, materialistic, manipulative, greed-headed and ultimately misanthropic mind-set that turns this wonderful, simple time of year into a feeding frenzy of conspicuous consumption on steriods. (Where's Dickens when we need him?) I wonder how extravagently many of these bloviating bigots with their shrill "war on Christmas" rhetoric celebrate the holiday they claim to hold sacred? Is it any wonder so many people get depressed and feel left out?

For the sake of peace and better universal mental health, a way needs to be found to divorce ourselves from the commercialism, simplify things, slow down and listen to the joyful "still small voice" of the season, regardless of one's faith (or lack thereof). For my part, I no longer have any sort of TV connection; no cable, no satelite, no annoying commercials; I will not be a passive consumer nor will I allow cynical strangers to manipulate my emotions and desires or dumb-down my news.

I wish you all, peace; may good will and understanding increase and draw us ever closer so that, in spite of our differences, we may work together for the betterment of all humanity.

Jerald Thomas Hawhee

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O Little Town of Bethlehem
Posted by: wawa on Dec 24, 2007 8:34 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
O Little Town of Bethlehem

Imprisoned you now lie.

Above thy deep and silent grief,

Surveillance drones now fly.

And through thy old streets standeth,

A huge illegal Wall.

The hopes and dreams that peace will come

Are dashed in this year’s Fall.



O morning stars together,

Look down upon this crime.

The people sing to God the King

But justice, who can find?

Yes, Christ was born of Mary,

God’s love remains supreme.

But mortals sleep as children weep,

Their pain is never seen.



How silently, how silently,

The world and Church protests.

As checkpoints grow and towns confined,

As settlers steal and rest.

No ear may hear the outcry,

As Israel’s Wall is built.

While meek souls muse, Apartheid rules -

We speak or share in guilt.



O Holy Child of Bethlehem,

Give strength to us, we pray.

Cast out our fears and open eyes.

O give us voice today!

We stand against injustice,

The Occupation must end.

May justice rule our Lord’s birthplace,

May now Christ’s peace descend.



Did you find that adaptation of “O Little Town” by Stephen Leah unsettling or even shocking? Then it is probably because of the way Christmas was sentimentalized in the 19th Century. Many of our popular carols were written then. If people in the 19th Century sentimentalized Christmas, people in the 20th Century trivialised Christmas. Naïve romanticism led to cynical commercialism. What will happen to Christmas in the 21st Century is really up to you and me.

The Rest WAWA BLOG Dec. 25, 2007:

http://www.wearewideawake.org/

VISIT Bethlehem on YOUTUBE:





http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=d1FaWE1SIZk&feature=related

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Meh. This unbloody secular-sectarian strafe needs a diplomatic solution.
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Dec 24, 2007 9:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Over half didn't know John the Baptist was Jesus's cousin; over a quarter didn't know who told Mary she was pregnant; and 78% had no idea where Mary and Joseph fled to escape Herod. Even the faithful were ignorant: only 36% of regular churchgoers got all four answers right.

All the answers are rote from a fourth a 4th grade pageant play except the first. The fourth is a tad esoteric, especially considering the weighting of modern pop services towards singing and hopping, rather than reading and considering.

I don't get what all the fuss is about, except that it appears to be human nature to enjoy fussing. This is a very festive time of the year: I get to spend precious time with my family, try my hand at cooking a ham, drive around town with my wife and look at the lights, and exchange long letters, pictures, and (if I'm lucky) some peanut brittle with grandparents one more year.

I roll my eyes at the local "It's OK to say Merry Christmas" button campaign. I mean duh; of course it is, silly. So says the first ammendment, a part of a document I'd much prefer more people become more literate with than the italicized subject of the author's opening dialogue. But that's just me.

So here's my diplomatic solution: if someone with a big smile on their face has the nerve to get up in yours and roar/shout "Merry Christmas" as a challenge or even in good nature, it's really, really ok to just say "No thanks", or even "Piss off, wanker". Both of you may then go about your Merry ways.

Dispute resolved, Obama-style (by talking to your friends and enemies!).

In the meantime, I'm going to do my best to be thankful for the joys I get out of life, in spite of the great number of things wrong in the world.

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pro christmas- anti-commercial
Posted by: robchapman on Dec 24, 2007 9:27 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The "Christians" who defend Christmas customs should all be buggered.

Where does the Christmas tree, reindeer, Santa, food orgies and exorbitant gift giving appear in the Bible or in Christian tradition.

In the Christmas Carol, Charles Dickens' seminal piece in the secularizing of Christmas, the emphasis of the Christmas spirit is on giving and especially in giving to the poor.

Today's defenders of Christmas defend the glitz, the hype, the materialism and most the GROSS PROFITS associated with Christmas.

The "Christian" Christmas in America is as reflective of Christianity as the Israelites worship of Golden Calf is of the Ten Commandments.

Robert Chapman
Lansing, NY

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Wouldn't it be nice
Posted by: willymack on Dec 24, 2007 9:46 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If people read and digested what was written by people with REAL MINDS, AND NOTHING TO GAIN OR LOSE by expressing their opinions, rather than by charlatans, hustlers, and crazies with profit and/or control of others in their thoughts? How many of those "christians" who feel so set upon know anything about what Bertrand Russell or Carl Sagan (to name but two) had to say about the subject? When is all this silly crap going to cease? Our nation was set up as a SECULAR one for a damn good reason, one you can see every day in the rantings of religious halfwits.

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Who Stole December 25?
Posted by: LeaderofMen on Dec 24, 2007 9:51 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is hilarious.

Christmas in the US has been a secular holiday for decades. Decades. It's only since the fundamentalists took over the GOP that it's an issue now.

But the real issue is this. December 25th is NOT Jesus's birthday. No way. No how. Even the Bible points out that the birth of Jesus did NOT take place in the wintertime. In addition, it is a matter of history that Mithra was born on the 25th, along with an plethora of other gods. Jesus was only the latest one to have that date attached to that myth.

Clearly, due to ignorance and politics this is a made up issue. Just like the entire mythology associated with Christianity.

I laugh in your face Christians. Those of you who are making this an issue are pathetic. I've done the research and know you are all liars.

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» RE: Who Stole December 25? Posted by: Lauren

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Me too...
Posted by: ohb0b on Dec 24, 2007 10:42 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yeah, I'm in my fifties. I have heard the phrases "Happy Holidays" and Season's Greetings" all my life, and wondered what all the fuss is about. My mother had a phrasre: "Making mountains out of molehills." It applies here.
I refuse to play into their victim game anymore. If they want martyrdom, they can lok elsewhere, as I have better things to do.

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If Only
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman on Dec 24, 2007 10:45 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The people who complain about Christianity or Christians being under attack by ANYONE are reversing reality. The fact is that Christians have attacked the rest of the world for centuries, leading to such absurdities as Christian churches in Africa, Asia, and even in remote tropical islands. Christian missionaries, as shock troops for the imperialists, have done more harm to our planet, and to indigenous people and their cultures, than anything. The world would be a much better place without Christians* and their Christianity; too bad their claims of self-endangerment are not true.

* By "Christians" I mean those who actively practice Christianity, not those who were merely born Christian.

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No war against Xtians, but some language has changed
Posted by: seltzer on Dec 24, 2007 11:30 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I grew up in small-town Vermont in the 80s saying "Merry Christmas" to everyone, and though I'd hear "happy holidays" and "season's greetings," they weren't the most common phrase. When I went off into the big world (to a college that's about 40% Jewish) and then to Boston, I noticed immediately that it wasn't kosher, if you will, to say "Merry Christmas" anymore. I really don't care one way or the other, b/c I'm a complete athiest, but let's be fair, in a tolerant multi-faith society, we tend to tone down overtly religious sentiments so as to not be exclusive in our speech. Any fool knows there is no war on Christmas by secularists or athiests, Jews or Muslims, but let's not pretend that there has been no cultural shift, however subtle, away from Christian traditions. Sometimes I miss being able to just say "merry Christmas" and not have to worry about my audience, but it's a small price to pay for living in the fascinating, diverse world I now inhabit.

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Keeping The Troops In Line
Posted by: IndispensiBill on Dec 24, 2007 11:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think all this "War On Christmas" stuff is really aimed more at ultra-right Christians than at secularists. The doomsayers don't really want better treatment from non-Christians. Indeed, the more "oppression" of Christians they can point to, the better it is for their agenda.

Think about it. What do people do in times of war and other dire crises? They hunker down, put aside their differences and rally behind their strongest leaders.

By cultivating the idea that they are an oppressed people facing extinction at the hands of the Evil Other, the troops can be manipulated to do almost anything.

But if they were allowed to believe the truth--that their leaders pretty much run the whole show already--they might begin to wonder at those leaders' piety, sincerity and motives, or otherwise stray from following their playbook; i.e. to think for themselves.

Can't have that.

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The "Holy" Highway
Posted by: graffen48 on Dec 24, 2007 3:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Have you seen the latest news story about the people praying on the side of interstate 35, claiming its a highway mentioned in the bible??
Lol, you can't make this stuff up!!!

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» RE: The "Holy" Highway Posted by: Lauren

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Happy Tuesday
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line on Dec 24, 2007 6:55 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Fine you do not want to acknowlege X mas.... Just say happy Tuesday and ALLOW the person that wished you a Merry christmas to be Joyful..If I say Merry Christmas it is not because I wish to offend, I am offering you a greeting from my point of view and I wish to wish you good will and nothing more. What is so offensive about that? So from here where I sit, Merry Christmas.....

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» RE: Happy Tuesday Posted by: Lauren

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Political Correctness: Celebrate Christmas without Apology
Posted by: riotoustanpdx on Dec 24, 2007 9:46 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To be concerned that any religious ceremony or celebration is an offense to anyone is the opposite of Political Correctness.

If we are a free republic or a free society on either side of the Pond, we ought to act truly free to worship and believe as we are, and as we do without apology to anyone. It follows that anyone offended by the free expression of religious beliefs in others acts against the freedom of religion everywhere.

To ridicule the religious beliefs of another is to use a subtle form of intimidation against that group of believers. This includes the tactics used by atheists, Secularists and Humanists who insist on referring to Christianity and Christmas as "myth."

For those who have demystified Christmas in the process of commercializing the tradition and stripping that historic event (the birth of the man who left in this world the enigma of the Shroud of Turin) of its religious meaning, perhaps it is time that a new Winter Solstice celebration be instituted.

Perhaps it is long overdue that "the Holiday Season" is divided into separate dates, leaving December 21st to the secular community and December 25th for the religious community to celebrate as each finds appropriate. Santa Claus and the reindeer can join the rest of the Saturnalia Traditions,while Midnight Mass, depictions of a baby in a manger, sacred songs, and meditations of Peace on Earth may still be appreciated by the faithful without the ridicule, dissolution, diminution, and disrespect that has been the trend in recent years.

It is exceedingly past the hour for the disbelievers of every genre to extricate themselves from any discussion of Christmas; go start your own solstice holiday.

Thomas A. Nagy

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» Christmas without Apology Posted by: Kafwood

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CHRIST - MAS IS A LIE: beginning, middle and end
Posted by: caru on Dec 24, 2007 9:48 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
jesus F'ING christ stole his work from tibet, if he ever lived. the jews and the christians and all the monotheists have a very dark god.

F CHRISTMAS.

enjoy the dark. turn off the light. check it out. dark is fun!

and for all you who hate the F word .... check out this enlightening video from an indian mystic named osho ...

search: osho, strange consequences on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D7rWLzloOI

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I Want To Celebrate *Everybody's* Holidays!
Posted by: Camilla Cracchiolo on Dec 25, 2007 2:07 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So, the other day, I was talking to my sister in Michigan (I'm in California). She's a Christian, I'm an atheist but we get along fine. And she asked me: "Do you say "Happy Holidays" or "Merry Christmas". I told her it depended on who I was talking to: I usually said "Merry Xmas" to folks of Christian background and "Happy Holidays" to Jews and others.

She told me it's a big deal in Michigan all over talk radio, the usual junk about evil secularists causing people to cancel their Xmas office parties (which are usually pretty sick anyway, IMHO, and maybe people are better off without.) She's pretty sick of the whole mess, herself.

So I told her: I think we should get everybody's holidays off! The fairest way is not to discriminate at all and celebrate everybody's! If it's a major holiday where they close the offices in the country of origin of anybody in your community, I want it off. With pay.

I want the secular holidays (New Year's Day, President's day, Martin Luther King Day, Veteran's Day, Memorial Day,) PLUS I want Xmas, Easter, Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanna, the end of Ramadan, Chinese New Year and Buddha's birthday. (Yes, Buddha's Birthday is a holiday here in Los Angeles's Koreatown where one of the most important Buddhist temples is by my house. Every year, there is a big sign stretched end to end: "Happy Buddha's Birthday".Dunno much about it, but I want it!) I don't know the big Hindu holidays, but I want them too!

My sister laughed and agreed and I think this is one way to deal with religious stupidity when it comes up. What working class person will argue with more *paid* days off?? If some fool insists on not taking the day off on somebody else's religious day, well they can keep the coffee shops open!

Do you know that in the Middle Ages, serfs, in addition to Sundays off had 35 Holy Feast Days that they didn't have to work??? How is it that poor oppressed serfs have it better than us??

Give us more Holidays!

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I can't believe it's happening in England
Posted by: drcyflowers on Dec 25, 2007 11:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wow. I thought only the trailer trash in the deep South of the USA were stupid enough to fall for this "war on Christmas" nonsense. I thought the Brits were more sceptical than that.

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guess where I hear teh msot about this: Alternet
Posted by: kenhymes on Dec 25, 2007 1:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most people, barring a few cranks and the pundits with no better ideas this month, we would almost never hear about this garbage if it wasn't for Alternet.

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you can thank the Catholics for this mess
Posted by: gerdhansel on Dec 26, 2007 10:04 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Roman Catholic missionaries to northern and western Europe deserve all the credit for absorbing pagan holidays into church tradition in order to convert the Franks and other Germanic tribes to Christianity.

The Germanic celebration of the sun’s return called Yule became a celebration of the birth of Christ called Christmas; the Celtic festival of the returning dead known as Samhain (pronounced Sow-in) became All Saints Day, All Hallows Eve, and finally Halloween.

Protestant groups like the Puritans wanted nothing to do with either Christmas or Halloween, which were considered heretical “Popish” excuses for human excess. They were also vehemently opposed to a peculiar Catholic Easter tradition called the Passion Play.

Early Puritan settlers in New England wanted nothing to do with pagan holidays grafted onto Church tradition to placate the masses. An early hallmark of all Calvinist sects was the doctrine of “Sola Scripture,” literally “Only Scriptures,” which limited Christian beliefs and traditions to the contents of the Bible and shunned all other traditions.

As more Anglican and Catholic settlers came to America, they brought traditions like Christmas and Halloween with them. Over time, the descendents of the early Puritans and other Calvinist settlers rediscovered these forbidden holidays.

But American Calvinist and Evangelical sects remained steadfastly opposed to Passion Plays until the advent of motion pictures once again popularized this historically Catholic tradition. Hollywood brought Passion Plays to the Baptists, Congregationalists and Presbyterians in the form of “The Greatest Story Ever Told,” “Ben Hur,” and “Jesus of Nazareth,” films that had the good sense to portray the final chapters of the Gospels in something resembling the proper context.

Mel Gibson finally broke down the old barriers created by the Protestant Reformation with his warts-and-all Catholic gore fest, “The Passion of the Christ,” which celebrated all the “Popish” heresies that sent the Puritans packing to New England centuries ago.

Wherever Mad Mel had a choice between Catholic tradition and the source material (i.e., the New Testament), he went with the worst elements of Catholic tradition.

Thus Jesus is beaten senseless from the time he is arrested until he is delivered to the Sanhedrin (completely inaccurate, he was only struck once for supposely disrespecting the high priest, and made a stink about it.)

Romans are portrayed in a more sympathetic light than the Jewish priests (which is nonsense, the Romans could've cared less. Imagine Mary Magdalene appealing to a Centurion about the Sanhedrin's treatment of Jesus, how ridiculous can you get.)

And Pontius Pilate is portrayed as a "Mensch" (actually, he got spooked by his wife's bad dream. The Romans were a superstitious lot.)

And the Baptists went to see Mad Mel's film in droves. Cotton Mather would've gone ballistic. So it seems Christianity had come full circle, and the Druids have won after all. So it would seem.

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