COMMENTS: 343
White Liberals Have White Privilege Too!
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On the other hand, the website www.blackpeopleloveus.com, featuring a liberal white couple, Johnny and Sally, enters murkier territory. Well-intentioned Johnny and Sally hang out with their black friends, who, as the namesake indicates, love them. Part of the site's subversion -- and subsequent confusion -- comes from the fact that its humor is not so separate from liberal Americana. We could meet a Johnny and Sally at a cocktail party, and maybe already have. One black "friend's" testimonial -- "Johnny is generous enough to remark upon how 'articulate' I am! That makes me feel good!" -- carries a zesty punch in light of Joe Biden's recent remarks on Barack Obama.
At these satires' roots is a distinction between challenging a Don Imus-type racism and the investment in something called white privilege. In the 1980s, a white feminist, Peggy McIntosh, came up with the metaphor of an "invisible knapsack" to analyze white privilege. It's unconscious, elusive, pervasive, and white liberals have as much of it as white conservatives do. McIntosh listed some ways she has white privilege. Her list ranges from the broad: "I can, if I wish, arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time," to the supposedly trivial: "I can choose ... bandages in 'flesh' color and have them more or less match my skin."
Jonah Peretti, co-creator of blackpeopelloveus.com (and also of Nike Sweatshop E-mail fame) said that the Web site's purpose was to "draw attention to the unintentionally offensive comments made by well-meaning white folks."
I've met Johnnys and Sallys at political events, house parties, and through friends of friends, who have an unnerving belief in their own righteousness -- their "downness" with the cause. The issue, though, is not the occasional off-color remark, but rather the framework that comment stems from.
Growing up in the company of white people, I was unaware of systems of whiteness. I knew that, as an Asian American, I looked different (and was unhappy about that), and that my parents faced linguistic and financial barriers (which I blamed them for). I did what "good" Americans did, and I individualized my struggles, believing that if I had enough gumption and know-how, I could rise to the pinnacle of society regardless of my starting point. I was an acolyte of the Temple of Ayn Rand. I didn't connect my experiences, or those of my parents, with larger institutions (i.e., capitalism) or cultural biases (i.e., white is right!), and blamed myself for failing to meet those standards rather than critique the systems that generated those standards. I had internalized whiteness, and if I had, then white people certainly had. As I began to develop what W.E.B. Du Bois called a "double consciousness" -- the perspective of "always looking at one's self through the eyes of others," I could not stop looking. Race (which in its fullness includes gender and class) was impossible to ignore, and I could not believe I had perpetuated racial hierarchy as much as I had.
Moving out of a parochial town in Florida to the cosmopolitan mecca of New York City, I did not experience the radical shift in racial awareness that I had expected. Contending with the racial bias of liberals proved to be more difficult because these urban sophisticates sheathed themselves in worldliness and benevolence rather than outright ignorance. Critiques of whiteness slid off their backs as though they were protected by a Teflon body armor. And so I offer the following list of misunderstandings that many white liberals have about race because I think they can do better -- and because we need to rethink our understanding of race and its relationship to U.S. democracy. The commentary does not encompass all white liberals nor does it solely apply to white people. But the frequency with which I encounter these misunderstandings makes the posture of liberal enlightenment seem halfway farcical and all the more crucial to confront. A critique of whiteness should extend beyond electoral politics and cut through every "issue" area because it's not just about how we vote, but rather about who we are.
1. White supremacy? You mean white men in white sheets?
Contemporary images suggest that white supremacy is a white man driving a pickup with a noose trailing from the back and a Confederate flag tattooed on his arm. Rather, it is simply the idea that white people, neighborhoods, concerns, beauty and self-worth are more important then nonwhite ones.
This system is one people of color imbibe as well, albeit to their detriment. For an extreme example, Michelle Malkin as a token Asian-American conservative hurts people of color despite being one. Even beyond conventional politics, internalized white supremacy often permeates communities of color, perpetuating whiteness as a desired standard. Those standards are the most visually arresting when they relate to expectations of beauty. It's not uncommon, for example, to see communities of color awash with lighter-skinned, rounder-eyed and thinner-haired images.
White supremacy gives white individuals a special racial privilege, be it through economic policies, law enforcement, schooling or magazine covers; consequently those people of color who seem whiter -- whether it is in appearance or action (the two often go hand-in-hand) -- receive special treats for their excellent performance.
White supremacy more accurately describes racial hierarchy in a way that "racism" doesn't. Racism is generally individualized -- e.g., What Bill O'Reilly said was racist! -- and doesn't describe the institutionalized systems that engender those moments. Anyone can be a perpetrator or a victim of racism, but that leaves out the reality that people live in a world with unequal claims to power -- a racial epithet directed at a white man is not the same as its opposite because a nonwhite person does not have the institutional power to pack her verbal punch. Racism has a mutability that white supremacy doesn't.
2. I'm not racist, but ...
Nobody is racist anymore. Liberals are often scared of calling other white people racist. Even Frank Rich of the New York Times defended the Republican candidates' snubbing of a debate at a historically black university as not racist but, rather, as "out of touch" (then again, Rich admitted he was a frequent guest on Don Imus' radio show).
But perhaps instead of using "Am I racist?" as our cultural litmus test, a more provocative question would be: "Am I anti-racist?" as in, do my actions overturn racial hierarchy? Such a question is far more complex because an affirmative answer affects every area of life -- what your job is, what bars you go to, the neighborhood you live in, where you send your kids to school, and with whom you surround yourself. The personal is as crucial (if not more so) than the political. Developing an anti-racist consciousness means recognizing the individual privileges we have and the larger context in which they exist. Such an assessment can be as uncomplicated as paying attention to (1) who is at the table and (2) who takes up the most space at said table.
Too often, "not racist" is equated with not conservative and not Southern; by thinking in binaries, liberals excuse themselves from criticism by pointing to the greater evil. Rush Limbaugh is really just an overly medicated red herring to the privileges of white liberals. The liberal establishment -- everyone from the Democratic Party to Daily Kos -- fails the anti-racism test by merely paying lip service to racial oppression while maintaining a predominantly white constituency. They remain complicit with the belief that white men know better and therefore should talk louder and much more often.
3. Colorblind as a bat.
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Alterman's belief is a class-not-race argument, and from a generous perspective, he could be suggesting that racial subject matter is inherently divisive. But he's essentially spewing the same colorblind rhetoric as Justice John Roberts did with the Seattle/Louisville cases, when the conservative majority ruled that the schools' use of race to achieve desegregation was unconstitutional. Roberts said, "The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race."
Alterman seems to believe that Jim Crow laws existed during a time when race was unavoidable. But how is racial oppression not a problem now? The continued xenophobia against immigrants, the racial profiling of black and Arab peoples, police brutality, soaring incarceration rates and vast educational inequities result from complex racial, class and gender structures. Moreover, even if there is no overt racial discrimination written into a certain law, that law's effects can still be discriminatory. For example, what editorialist Sylvester Brown Jr. calls the "walking with sagging pants while black" laws currently sweeping the nation, is according to the lawmakers, not about reigning in black masculinity, but rather about propriety. It is easy to make up laws that eschew the word "race" while only targeting one group. In the case of Alterman, it's not just about "class" as much as he yearns. (Couldn't I argue that slavery was just about class too? But more on that later.) It is a suspect attempt to excise race from class when they are inherently interwoven.
His desire to ignore race reinforces the dominant discourse. Alterman's vision of political discourse effectively invalidates people of color and prevents them from articulating their political concerns and personal experiences. In other words, who is this white man telling me how to talk about race?
4. Kumbaya, multiculturalism!
A popular perspective favored by many college admissions officers is the "It's a small world" multicultural approach. When celebrating "diversity," everything is positive, and nothing is unsavory. We can admire an African mask, hit a piñata with verve and gobble down a steamy bowl of pho -- all without political concerns. Stanley Fish calls it boutique multiculturalism. But it's just food. Or earrings. Or music. It reduces culture to benign, apolitical trinkets.
Boutique multiculturalism is most obviously inappropriate when it happens to domestic people of color, in the form of "ghetto fabulous" parties, where white college students -- or government officials -- don their favorite imitation of blackface. But the most uncriticized suspects are hipsters, hippies or other variants of alterna-whiteness. Their faddish diets often consist of keffiyehs (a symbol of Arab solidarity), dreadlocks (originally from Rastafarianism and black self-empowerment in Jamaica) and trips to Asia or Latin America -- all of which are part of their post-modern, post-cultural and post-political philosophy, where discrete cultures no longer exist, and everything is fair game. The consumer gains a "cool" credibility and some self-improvement, -discovery or -awareness.
Take New Age orientalist guru, Deepak Chopra. In the book Karma of Brown Folk, Vijay Prashad, writing in the legacy of Edward Said, says Chopra is "a complete stereotype willed upon India by U.S. orientalism, for he delivers just what is expected of a seer from the East."
Multiculturalism, according to Prashad:
Each cultural community is accorded the right to determine its destiny, as long as it does not clash in some fundamental way with the social construct of the state and its citizens ... The problem with U.S. multiculturalism as it stands is that it pretends to be the solution to chauvinism rather than the means for a struggle against white supremacy.So it's easy to adopt Chopra's philosophy because he is Ayn Rand lite. And it's easy for white hippie-hipsters to wear keffiyehs, because they would never be mistaken as a terrorist. Or groove to Tupac's music without ever fighting against poverty or the prison system. But what, both literally and figuratively, are we buying into?
5. It's not a "[insert racial group here]" issue as much as it is a "human" issue.
Last year, the outreach program Keep a Child Alive ran an AIDS awareness campaign featuring headshots of Western celebrities adorned with facepaint and large block letters proclaiming, "I Am African." The high-profile roster included such human rights luminaries as Gwyneth Paltrow, Sarah Jessica Parker and only one person who could actually claim to be African: supermodel Iman. There was a rapid backlash to the campaign and its asserted motives: "Each and every one of us contains DNA that can be traced back to our African ancestors ... Now they need our help." Its flaws were easily exposed by a deft parody that reversed the roles portraying an African woman with the tagline, "I am Gwyneth Paltrow."
The campaign fit neatly into a framework of universal humanism, where a Westerner, with enough knowledge and/or empathy, could speak for another. Universalism, as it has existed, has refused to allow nonwhiteness to exist in any real or multifaceted way, and while Gwynnie can stand in for Africa, a nameless African woman could never replace her, or the "West" for that matter. This is yet another permutation of colorblindness that denies those who most experience racial oppression the right to speak to it. In the introduction to Notes of a Native Son, James Baldwin writes, "When we talk about color, we are not merely speaking about phenotype, but experience, oppression, and livelihoods -- things that inform our humanity."
Even Toni Morrison (and she's not the only person who said this) made an egregious error when, in a New Yorker article, she said Bill Clinton was the first "black president." She said his background and the potshots directed at his sex life were indicative of the black experience. Not really. Nothing can stand in for having dark skin. It's also especially ironic because policies he espoused resulted in higher incarceration rates for black people.
6. One of my best friends is [insert nonwhite group here]!
Earlier this year, I was at a bar in the liberal bastion of Berkeley with a group of Asian-American girls. A white male sidled next to us and offered to buy us a round of drinks. Not the types who refuse free drinks, we accepted (of course, I forgot my mother's warning that nothing in life is free) and began chatting with our new friend, and self-identified liberal, "Sam."
Everything was dandy until Sam made a derogatory remark about Asian-Americans. Our irritated expression elicited a swift defense: "No, no! It's OK! I dated a Chinese girl."
In Thinking Orientals, historian Henry Yu discusses the Chicago sociologists and their work on Asian Americans. Robert Park, among others, wanted to measure "social distance," which was "whether a person cared about another or could imagine the other's point of view." Park quantified empathic ability on a scale from zero to five, where zero represented marriage (and sex, naturally) and five a desire for a group to leave the country. But Yu wonders, "Why was sex and intermarriage to be the ground zero of social distance?" For Park, the "possibility that someone could at the same moment abhor and desire a person of another race was counted an impossibility."
But how does a white person having sex with a nonwhite person -- or having a nonwhite "best friend" for that matter -- necessarily make her less racist? Strom Thurmond managed the contradiction fairly well. For example, analyzing Asian-white sexual relationships, the U.S. Census Bureau reports that Asian females are twice as likely to marry a white male, than if the racial roles were reversed. The disparity fits neatly into a narrative that has belittled and desexualized Asian-American men (note that the most famous Asian-American American Idol contestants were William Hung and Sanjaya Malakar) and eroticized Asian-American women (in contrast, look at American Apparel ads or take a trip to the "adult" section of the video store). Private bedroom acts are, in this way, as political as declaring which candidate we champion in an election.
7. How could I have white privilege? I'm poor/female/gay/Polish/disabled!
Another liberal technique is to eschew a discussion of race in favor of one of "class." The implicit, and sometimes explicit, argument is that race (or "identity politics") holds the Left back from what actually oppresses people and furthermore assumes that constructions of class and race are separate, rather than dynamically intertwined. Historian Robin Kelley critiques such an either-class-or-race construction in Yo' Mama's Disfunktional!: Fighting the Culture Wars in Urban America:
The idea that race, gender and sexuality are particular whereas class is universal not only presumes that class struggle is some sort of race- and gender-neutral terrain but takes for granted that movements focused on race, gender or sexuality necessarily undermine class unity and, by definition, cannot be emancipatory for the whole.Race determines how class (and gender) is experienced and vice versa. (Isn't that what this conversation about immigration and a "guest workers" program is about?) Furthermore, there is a failure to integrate racial analysis on the parts of mainstream feminist and gay rights organizations. A cursory look at mainstream gay and lesbian and feminist commentators reveals that while a gender analysis might be a part of their ethos, anti-racism is not. Arguing for primacy of dismantling one hierarchy over another, or simply leaving one out, is a limited and ultimately doomed strategy for liberation.
8. The white savior complex.
Saving Africa is a hot trend, especially for consumers. U.S. shoppers can buy a (red) iPod Shuffle or (red) T-shirts from the Gap, which recently got caught employing child labor in India to manufacture its world-saving goodies. Celebrities like Madonna are taking some personal initiative and trailblazing the "save African babies" trend. But, maybe it's not actually about the babies.
Western countries perpetually exploit the people and resources of the Global South, which, in turn, conveniently places them in a prime position to be saved either economically or morally. (For example, on the issue of colonial Britain's attempt to illegalize "suttee," or widow-burning in India, scholar Gayatri Spivak called it an example of "white men saving brown women from brown men." This is not to collapse moral indignation with economic and colonial repression, but rather to suggest they have a complex relationship to each other.
The exploitation of domestic exotics is linked to human rights abuses abroad because the disregard for lives of color operates from the same logic. Furthermore, neighborhoods like Chinatown, the projects and barrios are considered the results of those people not being able to get it together or something regressive about their "culture," rather than something unequal about the "system." It creates a dynamic where the wealthy, and/or the well-intentioned can begrudgingly, condescendingly or magnanimously save the black, brown, and yellow people from themselves. It's the difference between social service and social justice, where the former works to alleviate hardship, while the latter aims to eradicate the root causes of that hardship.
9. "Good" people of color
At the beginning of Obama's candidacy for president, Joe Klein of Time observed that white people were "out of control" at a rally for Obama, while the black folks were decidedly reserved. Chris Matthews gushed that, with Obama, there was "no history of Jim Crow, no history of anger, no history of slavery. All the bad stuff in our history ain't there with this guy." Indeed, in a speech at Selma, Ala., commemorating the march in 1965, Obama himself stated that in the struggle for equality, the Civil Rights leaders had brought black people "90 percent of the way." Just 10 percent to go!
Obama is a portrait of calm amicability -- so much so that his own supporters have urged him to ramp up the heat. Walter Shapiro described Obama's debating style as "smooth jazz" for its mellowness (a racialized characterization for sure, but we'll leave it be). Gary Younge has noted that his cadences are also unlike the oratorical styles of black politicians like Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson. The New York Times has also had a recent orgy of articles calling Obama "post-racial," "post-feminist" and "post-polarization." White liberals have gleefully projected their fantasies (delusions?) of a post-race society on a man who looks black but doesn't "act" black. But what about those who do?
Any group of color -- Asian American, black, Latino -- is incredibly heterogeneous, but experiences a bifurcation of their community into "good" and "bad." And what happens when the "good" start misbehaving? Take Nina Simone: She rose to popularity in the late '50s with her hit I Loves You Porgy, and her music took a political turn in the mid-'60s. On a live recording of Simone singing "Mississippi Goddam," the predominantly white audience laughs initially at her introduction of the song but, listening to the lyrics, slowly grows quiet and uncomfortable. She quips, "Bet you thought I was kidding."
In "The Souls of White Folk," W.E.B. Du Bois, describes the separation:
So long, then, as humble black folk, voluble with thanks, receive barrels of old clothes from lordly and generous whites, there is much mental peace and moral satisfaction. But when the black man begins to dispute the white man's title to certain alleged bequests of the Fathers in wage and position, authority and training; and when his attitude toward charity is sullen anger rather than humble jollity ... then the spell is suddenly broken, and the philanthropist is ready to believe that Negroes are impudent, that the South is right, and that Japan wants to fight America."Good" and "bad" come down to the extent to which a person challenges the hierarchy, whether it is through action or style. I wonder, if Obama started sporting an afro and talking about black empowerment, would white liberals suddenly lose their affection for him? And if Bill Richardson's last name were in the Spanish style of taking both parents' last names, with his mother's maiden name following his father's surname, would he be as successful as Bill Richardson López?
10. All that guilt.
An attack on a white supremacist system is not a personal insult. Anti-racist critiques seek to dismantle a system that gives different groups unequal power. No one chooses her/his skin color, but people can change the values assigned to those differences.
This conversation about race is an easy one to ignore (Hi, Alterman!). Privilege, by its nature, can choose what it wishes to engage with. Being critical of white supremacy is not designed to make white people feel bad about being white and replace the knapsack of white privilege with one of white guilt. Rather, it is asking white people to take off the knapsack and chuck it down the river. White people not only need to acknowledge their individual advantages, but also build a resistant collective consciousness that privileges marginalized peoples. But the question remains, can they do it?
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: mmckinl on Dec 21, 2007 3:10 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In any organized society from wolves to apes to human beings recognitional differentiation is the key for survival let alone success. Stimulation requires a learned response to fit into a social equation. From the white elites to the blacks in ghettos there is on going differentiation.
I can see the difference between myself and my parents as far as racial differentiation. My childs generation will be more circumspect than mine.
Yes, everyone needs to reflect on rationalizations of their behavior towards others. But it goes deeper than that, to recognition of our trained identity, and the very premises to which we have been socialized.
The problem is not the knapsack. The answer is the person we carry, and the response we bring to bear.
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» if thy eye offends thee
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
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Posted by: KaptainSpiffy on Dec 21, 2007 3:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
all that talk and no real solutions are offered. i'm left feeling unable to 'do anything, say anything, feel anything' that might 'please' the author to 'prove' myself to be labeled something other than what he has framed me with. who am i to be? can i blame the author for this?
walk a mile in my shoes. what are the answers?
anyone?
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» RE: if thy eye offends thee
Posted by: madmac10
» Dialogue?
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Dialogue?
Posted by: off-the-radar 2
» Don't worry, I haven't offended anyone. None of the "progressives" here are race-baiters, right?
Posted by: timemachinist
» Thine answer was yon, but thou hast missed it in thy haste.
Posted by: benzene
» thanks
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» Just scrub harder? Part One
Posted by: timemachinist
» Just Scrub Harder? Part Two
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: if thy eye offends thee
Posted by: Dragonwoman
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Dec 21, 2007 4:21 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some of these points have truth to them, but so what? Everybody makes blunders in everyday conversation. Many people do things with good intentions, and maybe even good results, even though they might come across wrong now and then. Will we keep penalizing or discouraging them because they're human?
Don't black, brown, yellow, purple, and green people make verbal slips when talking about white people? Should white people hold it against them and say: Here's a set of rules about how you should talk to us, talk about us, what you should do, how you should do it...?
This quote says it all: "[W]ho is this white man telling me how to talk about race?" Talk about the pot calling the kettle white...or something like that.
Most of us know that not all blacks and other minorities are uptight, defensive, angry, PC-obsessed people waiting to jump on whitie's next verbal slip. But articles like this seem to perpetuate the idea that they are.
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» Who is this (white) Asian American telling me how to talk about race?
Posted by: jimidee
» Idn't about "PC"
Posted by: benzene
» RE: Idn't about "PC"
Posted by: suprmark
» RE: Idn't about "PC"
Posted by: benzene
» RE: Idn't about "PC"
Posted by: Moira61
» Your brother's or sister's flaws are also your own
Posted by: mejsmith
» Outstanding Points!!!
Posted by: Gravitas
» RE: Get real; let's try.
Posted by: jjdoggie
» RE: Get real; let's try.
Posted by: jjdoggie
» RE: Get real; let's try.
Posted by: drmeow
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Posted by: Shade on Dec 21, 2007 4:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Oops!
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
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Posted by: h bee on Dec 21, 2007 5:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.stirfryseminars.com/pages/coloroffear.htm
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Posted by: Shehova on Dec 21, 2007 5:30 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: mab on Dec 21, 2007 5:57 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
michael
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» and? . . .
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
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Posted by: madmac10 on Dec 21, 2007 6:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
An Indian friend was discussing his Master's Thesis with me recently: The Feminization of Indian Males by British Colonialism. His contention is that British imperialist power emasculates its enemies through propaganda. This discussion forced me to think about how American imperialism does the opposite. We tend to hyper-masculate our enemies. For instance, we have turned a handful of largely impotent muslim fanatics into rabid nihilistic hordes.
Likewise, we instill into the heartland a fear of the beefy 50-Cent thug who wants to burn down the suburbs with boom-boxes and bling. His woman is pneumatically curved and insatiable, and available for a pittance. Massing on our southern border are waves of tattooed monsters just slathering for cheap health care and easy money watering lawns. Asians are portrayed as gun-toting maniacs who will break down your door.
Even white people are engulfed in hyper-masculating stereotypes as crazed bikers and rampaging rednecks. It is a complex issue--too complex to ignore the occasional feminization that our media propagandizes as well (as Mr. Jung has thoughtfully included in his remarkable essay.) But we buy these stereotypes with hard-earned money and then we feed them to our fears. This is basically how the west has empowered fundamentalism in all its ugliest forms across the globe.
Simple answer? Doubtful. But I think the best start is to teach yourself to think critically--about everything. Ignore those paths to the left or the right... think for yourself.
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» Hate to sound cliched but much of this is about class. Note the reference to the white biker menace
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: Luther Blissett on Dec 21, 2007 6:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What does it mean to be "white"? Irish and Italians are certainly white, but that wasn't always the case. Thomas Carlyle said about the Irish, "Black-lead them and put them over with the n---ers." Are Jews white? Eastern Europeans? Are the "black" and "brown" people I mentioned earlier even "black" and "brown"?
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» i think your point about 'what does it mean to be 'white' is important
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» The author is suggesting that white folks have a corner...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: The author is suggesting that white folks have a corner...
Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: "White racist comments come with an extra punch that minorities don't have."
Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: "White racist comments come with an extra punch that minorities don't have."
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: "White racist comments come with an extra punch that minorities don't have."
Posted by: no1kstate
» How can black people be racist? Racism takes POWER to enact!
Posted by: Thetorganization
» Dude, I AM above racism...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Don't get all defensive.
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: jefhadist on Dec 21, 2007 6:28 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» oh please, god, no.
Posted by: reevolve
» I know what you mean
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: If only...
Posted by: jefhadist
» bogus cop-out
Posted by: jefhadist
Comments are closed-
Posted by: sausage on Dec 21, 2007 6:58 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And everytime Alternet.org posts an op-ed piece or new item on "illegal immigration" here comes another swarm of suburban-raised Whities saying they ain't racist, their omas and bumpas came through Ellis Island but, damn, them Mexie-kans shore talk funny and they smell bad too!
This piece also reminds me of an essey written by a Grinnell College student on why she was voting for Ralph Nader in 2000. Her parents were both tenured professors at The University Of Iowa and she's spent a summer of outreach work in the slums of Quito, Ecuador so she knew all about Latin American poverty and was just certain Al Gore would ignore it. lol
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» RE: Spot on analysis...and so f*cking true
Posted by: tweedster
» I don't have to suggest sh*t
Posted by: sausage
» oh, jesus. now you are just being an ass
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» and you gave me a '1' rating
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: I don't have to suggest sh*t
Posted by: Lauren
» Bigoted Undertext
Posted by: benzene
» RE: Bigoted Undertext
Posted by: suprmark
» Why don't you just move in next door instead of whining?
Posted by: timemachinist
» What exists in peoples' minds is often more relevant than science
Posted by: benzene
» Exactly what role would you say "race" plays?
Posted by: timemachinist
» yay!
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: Spot on analysis...and so f*cking true
Posted by: Bizby
» RE: Spot on analysis...and so f*cking true
Posted by: asilsfable
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Posted by: PandaBear on Dec 21, 2007 7:17 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: kevred on Dec 21, 2007 7:19 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Its basic premise is true, of course. Of course white liberals have the same whatever-it-is that other white people (more specifically, those of the same socio-economic group, something this piece seems to gloss over) have.
And there's little doubt that all the individual observations are based on true moments. Heck, I'm a white liberal and none of this is any surprise to me. I've seen examples of several of these things myself.
But despite the quick disclaimer early in the piece, it quickly starts to read like a "here are some personal observations I'm extrapolating into universal truths" session, which is better for provocation than increasing understanding. And sure, there's a place for provocation. But on a topic that already has a venomous history of stereotyping, playing it this way may well be counter-productive.
So, the piece isn't really about white liberals at all. It's about specific white liberals in the social circle of one person in New York City--and perhaps not the most modest or working-class circle, at that?
Here's my suggestion: make this a piece about your personal experience with a certain socio-economic class of liberals in NYC, and what the implication of that might be. Or make it a questioning piece--from an outsider's view, this is how it appears to me; am I right, and if so, is this how you want to be perceived, white liberals? Or make it a "ten behaviors white liberals should avoid if they want to be taken seriously". Or maybe even a deeper, thoughtful rumination on "barriers to meaningful dialogue on race".
Instead of any of those more-thoughtful options, we get a top-10 list with lots of cheerful dismissals and characterizations.
If it's anything more than a personal observation--and this spins wildly off of that, with all kinds of charming-yet-wrong youthful bravado (e.g., good thing you know more about being black than Toni Morrison does)--then you're as guilty of stereotyping as anyone you might label on either side of the racist divide.
As an intern, you're in the process of a learning experience--and I'm sure it's a terrific one at a place like AlterNet. Please take these thoughts in that context, from someone who's probably no more or less qualified to write about these matters than you are, yet also just egotistical enough to do so anyway.
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» TRUE! nm
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Oversimplified, overgeneralized--you can do better
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Oversimplified, overgeneralized--you can do better
Posted by: suprmark
» Exactly how I am supposed to "lay down my invisible backpack?"
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: Angry white males? The truth hurts!
Posted by: peacelf
» Yes, leftist Breast-beating required for "my" Original White Sin is driving me out of politics
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: And you called me a whiner? You gave up!
Posted by: peacelf
» RE: Oversimplified, overgeneralized--you can do better
Posted by: anonymous black writer
» having to constantly put up with these annoying encounters
Posted by: asilsfable
» RE: Oversimplified, overgeneralized--you can do better
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Oversimplified, overgeneralized--you can do better
Posted by: anonymous black writer
» RE: It's an article, not a book
Posted by: peacelf
Comments are closed-
Posted by: benzene on Dec 21, 2007 7:30 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find it disturbing that "white is better" is the predominant paradigm of global beauty aesthetics. That darker people are considered to be less desirable mates because they lead to darker children who have a lower chance of success. That dark-skinned women resort to bleaching their skin to conform more closely to the "ideal white beauty". That hair must be chemically processed and straightened and tortured out of its natural state to be considered acceptable in the business world. Every skin tone can be beautiful, and I don't understand why lighter skin tones are universally considered more appealing.
2)
The other thing I find odd is, when talking to liberal friends, it comes up that they've never even considered dating people of another race. Reasons for this vary from "I've never really thought about it" to "I never really considered [race x] attractive". This shows that the xenophobic desire for racial homogeneity isn't limited to the conservative paradigm, it's simply more subtle in the liberal paradigm.
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» hoping for more out of this than oprah observations
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» What I Really Think
Posted by: benzene
» While these things are true to some extent...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: While these things are true to some extent...
Posted by: Jbuuty
» So what?
Posted by: jimidee
» Mulatto????!!!!!????You actually refer to your children as mulatto?
Posted by: asilsfable
» You must be corn-fused...
Posted by: jimidee
» Lies of omission
Posted by: asilsfable
» My definition came straight from a dictionary...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Beauty & Interracial-ness
Posted by: Lauren
» Hard-wired
Posted by: benzene
» from my post earlier
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» There are a lot of black folks who would never consider dating...
Posted by: jimidee
» Very Good Point
Posted by: Gravitas
» What does "sizes" have to do with anything we are talking about here?
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Beauty & Interracial-ness
Posted by: bookie
» RE: Excellent point, too.
Posted by: peacelf
» RE: Beauty & Interracial-ness
Posted by: hms2004
Comments are closed-
Posted by: timemachinist on Dec 21, 2007 7:51 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's no such thing as race so why are you even writing about it? To stir it up and divert our attention and categorizations of the world into fictitious racial identities? You only strengthen these things by writing about them, no matter what you write. And that's because they aren't the right categories for even defining our problems or identities.
The meaningful differences in people are cultural, not racial. Culture is rooted in a lot of things --history, geography, economics, etc-- but it certainly isn't rooted in skin color or any other superficial genotype. The contentious relations between tribal identities are rooted in economic competition, including territory where their culture (language, customs, cuisine, religion, etc) is dominant and pervasive. But the ideal of American society is supposed to be the melting pot of a great mix of the world's immigrants and cultures, not a fixing of identites around color or fictitious and meaningless "racial" lines.
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» True, women of all colors are delicious, but...
Posted by: jimidee
» We seem to have a culture gap here
Posted by: timemachinist
» Oh, I think you get it alright! nm
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Why care or talk about color or "race" at all?
Posted by: Lauren
» Dear Lauren,
Posted by: timemachinist
» mixed-race person here
Posted by: inverse_agonist
» You make me smile
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: Why care or talk about color or "race" at all?
Posted by: Skills83
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Turiye on Dec 21, 2007 8:01 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many languages, religious beliefs in my family. Sick as hell of ALL generalizations, you as an Asian person, are you not aware of non-white, Asian, cultural cliques? WHY? Not racism, oh no, although marriages appear as Asian-Asian, Jewish-Jewish, Muslim-Muslim, African-American-African-American, White-White, Christian-Christian(not all white), Indian-Indian.
I see excuse after excuse, OH Woe Is Me, I marry whom I choose, Raise strong Educated, Tolerant Daughters, 18 and 30, truly could care less if you want to excuse all that is wrong by blaming an entire color of a population.
My Goodness, get on with your life and stop making excuses and blaming others, I have gone through alot, this too shall pass.
To lay blame, to make excuses for how and why keeps you stuck. Stay there or move on, Geez Louise it is almost 2008, enough.
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» RE: Yes, You are Asian Therefore what you say makes it so?
Posted by: Turiye
» RE: Yes, You are Asian Therefore what you say makes it so?
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: peacelf on Dec 21, 2007 8:07 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Critical theorist, Robert Terry, describes institutional power as: The White Male Club. The white male club is the institutionalization of white male supremacy and dominance in the world. Every institution in america has one purpose: that is to serve the wealthy white males who own and run the country.
Yet, by thinking of white patriarchal power as a Club, one can understand how access to wealth, status and power is attained, even if one is not white and male--just play by the club rules!
Playing by the club rules provides psychological and sometimes economic benefits. For example, if one wants to climb the corporate ladder and gain access to position and higher pay, one needs to play by the club rules by acting in ways that benefit the white male club and maintains their wealth and power.
The same goes for politicians. In the U.S. we have yet to elect a woman or person of color as president. The two Democratic candidates who are not white males must play by club rules in order to have access to the resources it takes to run a presidential campaign, otheriwse they would be marginalized by the white male owned media.
For example, if Obama were to suddenly speak out against, say, institutionalized racism in america, he would end up like Al Sharpton in 04: a source of entertainment and laughter for debate audiences rather than a serous candidate for president.
And, Hillary Clinton must demonstrate more testosterone-driven machismo on issues of foreign policy and the Iraq War than her male counterparts and serve corporate interests in order to be funded by White Male Club members. Indeed, her electability depends on it. She certainly has proven her worthiness for membership.
Of course, being a white male doesn't mean one has to play by club rules or accept the invitation, and Dennis Kucinich is a good example of that refusal to particpate or play by club rules. As a Congressman from Cleveland, his ability to be elected by Cleveland residents is testamony to his ability to "border cross."
I'm not talking about illegal immigration (however immigration is an issue that Kucinich has crossed borders on). Border crossing is the ability to transcend one's place and privilege, to see the plight of the "other." Kucinich has demonstrated this time and again with social policies that seek to achieve real equality for all citizens. His campaign is people-driven, not corporate funded, nor will he ever receive financing from white male club members as long as he challenges institutionalized white male supremacy.
Because of his refusing club membership, Kucinich is ignored by the corporate media or not taken seriously because admission to the media spotlight requires money, money that comes from the White Male Club. In fact, many of Kucinich's progressive allies will not vote for him because he refuses to play by club rules.
As an anti-racist, I recognized, as Alex Jung points out, that it is my responsibility to challenge the institutionalized power structure that perpetuates white male dominance. As a white male, I cannot be tempted by the psychological and economic benefits of white privilege and ignore my role in white supremacy, otherwise I am part of the problem. It is not white guilt that drives me, but a passionate longing for justice in an unjust world. Had I not listened to the voices of "others" as a student in college, I would not have been able to transcend my own white male privilege.
Peace
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» I am embarassed to share a candidate with this whiner
Posted by: timemachinist
» timemachinist
Posted by: bookie
» RE: Don't be embarrassed...
Posted by: peacelf
» RE: I am embarassed to share a candidate with this whiner
Posted by: johnshadows
» I disagree
Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: By necessity or choice?
Posted by: peacelf
» RE: By necessity or choice?
Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: aonghus, this spills over...
Posted by: peacelf
» RE: peacelf, then, it is no longer racial
Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: Institutional Racism and the White Male Club
Posted by: Lauren
» Yes, You are Right On!
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Yes, You are Right On!
Posted by: aonghus36
» Best Comment
Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: Best Comment
Posted by: peacelf
» Ngugi wa Thiong'o
Posted by: Jbuuty
» So, what about the Black Club?
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Interesting how you...
Posted by: peacelf
» But, let's stick to politics.
Posted by: jimidee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: willymack on Dec 21, 2007 8:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: nough, already
Posted by: Lauren
» women are hard-wired to choose the best provider
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: nough, already
Posted by: taisamarie
» I have to agree with this...
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: nough, already
Posted by: aonghus36
Comments are closed-
Posted by: caru on Dec 21, 2007 8:54 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
PEACE AND SELF INQUIRY
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» RE: WE ARE ALL BLACK, but we are not all privileged
Posted by: peacelf
» You are really a piece of work!
Posted by: asilsfable
» RE: Where do you get this stuff that I "said"?
Posted by: jimidee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Gravitas on Dec 21, 2007 9:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: White Privilege is a Harder and Harder Sell
Posted by: Lauren
» privilege is a relative and distracting term
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: privilege is a relative and distracting term
Posted by: Gravitas
» Scientific Statistics Bear Out the Truth
Posted by: sofla100
» It really is about an economic divide. Nm
Posted by: jimidee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Suzon on Dec 21, 2007 9:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thirty or forty years ago there was an excellent book called Black Like Me in which a white man medicinally darkened his skin and literally did walk in the shoes of a man of color. What was it like to be black? The author's description of it from a white perspective really was effective in reaching white people.
In studying the most powerful cliques within the City of London, I noted that women and people of color were few but seemed to be proudly displayed. It may mean that the dominant white males are genuinely less racist: willing to accept non-white and non-male colleagues. Or that they are simply adapting to the demands of the times while keeping the levers of power firmly in hand. A bit of both probably.
In my lifetime genuine progress has been made socially and should be celebrated by everyone. But the underlying economic realities have gone from bad to worse.
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» the trends
Posted by: timemachinist
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Frank J. on Dec 21, 2007 9:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. I'm white and male
2. Grew up in a small farming community during the worst of the agricultural crisis.
3. Still farming and working as an organizer on rural issues.
Based upon this, and wearing my organizer hat, I started wondering what the "handles" are on this issue for me. Also realizing that most people take action out of self interest first, it's important that these actions help me and people like me as well as others.
1. Improve the Farm Service Agency's policies and attitudes toward minority farmers. The US Department of Agriculture has a horrible record with minority farmers. They have higher foreclosure rates and lower amounts of loans and services to minority farmers. This is a constant battle in the farm bill. Check out the Farmers Legal Action Group website for more information www.flaginc.org. On the self interest side, I believe helping small minority farmers will improve the USDA's service to all family farmers including white ones like me.
2. Promote wind development on Indian Reservations. Some of our poorest areas in this country are Indian Reservations in North and South Dakota. Through history they've been whittle down to areas of the states that have little or no natural resources, accept for the wind. Now that resources is worth something and we should be working to improve the amount of native wind energy on our national electricity grid. Check out my friends at intertribal COUP for more information http://www.intertribalcoup.org/. Once again, I own windy land and helping my Indian neighbors will, I believe, help me.
Now I know these are two very small examples of putting "handles" on this issue and I know they are from a very rural perspective, but I believe we need to start talking about solutions instead of continually exploring the problems.
I can't comment on a lot of this. I don't listen to Chupak although Ann Peebles and the Stax collection move my white soul.
With that, I wish you all Peace in the New Year.
Frank
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» RE: where do regular folks fit in?
Posted by: asante sana
» RE: where do regular folks fit in?
Posted by: Frank J.
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Everitt on Dec 21, 2007 10:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your example of Asian women marrying white men - I'd be interested in finding out how many are married to Latin, South Asian or men of African descent. Just as there is an emasculating stigma on Asian men, so to is there a stigma of a different kind for men of these other ethnic groups that Asian women respond to. And lets not forget the white man's alpha male position in American society. How does that inform Asian women's choices in choosing their mates?
Racism is just an enhanced form of tribalism, a genetic mechanism of which we are all victims. Yes, because of their position of power within the society white racism can have a far more harmful effect on other ethnic groups, but many of the things (many not all) you are critiquing white liberals for are so intrinsically human and personal it seems almost petty.
As I've gotten older I've come to accept that a certain level of racism will always exist (but I'm in no way in the camp with the regular racism deniers on supposedly liberal sites like these). All I can fight for is social, economic and political justice, other than that, live and let die.
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» RE: What about minority on minority?
Posted by: taisamarie
» Data for you
Posted by: benzene
» RE: In U.S. only whites can be racist
Posted by: peacelf
» Define "institutional"
Posted by: Everitt
» RE: Define "institutional" OKAY, I Will
Posted by: peacelf
» Nonetheless, the definition of racism...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Define "institutional" OKAY, I Will
Posted by: aonghus36
» As I'm sure YOU know...
Posted by: mjabele
» Racism will end only when people give up the idea of race
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: Webster and Oxford are....White males?
Posted by: peacelf
» anybody can be a 'racist'
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Racism and power
Posted by: peacelf
» RE: acism and power
Posted by: jimidee
» BINGO! nm
Posted by: jimidee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: meesajean on Dec 21, 2007 10:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is an ideology that people are conscious of, but its still happening isn't it? They're still doing it...we're still doing it- the moment we are aware of our own oppressive ideologies, we continue to act them out- just with more cynicism. And I think that includes everyone- not just white liberals; however white liberals enacting out these ideologies reinforces power.
Its not that I don't think people can't change their reinforcements of power structure- I just think that this article is something that people are already aware of- this author didn't just reveal a huge secret to white liberals across the U.S. thats going to shatter their worldview.
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» RE: Outdated article
Posted by: taisamarie
» RE: Outdated article
Posted by: Luther Blissett
» Not a social problem?
Posted by: jimidee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: nfamous on Dec 21, 2007 10:28 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This all stems from white people's fear of being genetically annihilated. White birthrates are dropping all over the planet and nonwhite birthrates are up. Less than one in ten people on the planet are white but whites still think they are superior because they created a lot of technology, (not all of it by any estimation).
Whites did what they had to do to survive as they evolved in colder climates. They lost their pigmentation from climate and diet change as they traveled north out of what is now Africa. They have been angry and resentful at blacks ever since. They know that blackness is a dominant gene and the only way to create another white person is for a white man and woman to conceive. The problem is white people also love money. To make money they need nonwhites around, but when nonwhites are around, whites invariably have babies with them which creates more nonwhites and less whites. White people collectively don't care about race purity anymore. They want to make and spend money, not raise families.
It's a bitter irony for them I'm sure but I've always said America is a failed experiment. Slaves should've been paid reparations and allowed to establish their own nation within these United States. That way the races could've remained separate but whites like having black people around to demonize, scapegoat and entertain them. If we left them whites would be crushed and then what would they do with all those prisons? What goes around comes around and with the Latino population soaring we will probably see the last visibly white person in a a few hundred years, if that long.
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» tired rhetoric-
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» I don't mind having more dark girls! I love them!
Posted by: timemachinist
» Let me get this right
Posted by: benzene
» Your separatist's attitiudes would have made...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: White Supremacy will be around as long as western slave systems in the New World.
Posted by: yellow
» I thought that only white people can be racist.....(peacelf?)
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: I thought that only white people can be racist.....(peacelf?)
Posted by: peacelf
» RE: White Supremacy will be around as long as whites are
Posted by: MobileSucks
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pacto on Dec 21, 2007 10:39 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: strange...
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Posted by: arod95 on Dec 21, 2007 11:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm tired of people trying to deemphasize certain issues because other ones exist. Yes poverty is a problem, yes racism is a problem, but they are not problems that can be generalized so easily. Because I was poor and black the racism I experienced was a slightly different flavor than the type a rich black person would face.
The liberal white racism wasn't so much of an issue because a lot of the racism I experienced was less nuanced and in some instances more institutional. Would I say that I faced worse racism? No, just like I wouldn't say that my poverty was any more harsh than a white person's. But they are certainly different. I think we need to stop simplifying these issues.
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» Why don't I feel guilty?
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: Why don't I feel guilty?
Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: Why don't I feel guilty?
Posted by: Luther Blissett
» RE: Why don't I feel guilty?
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Why don't I feel guilty?
Posted by: jimidee
» Speaking of Oversimplifying the issues....
Posted by: Gravitas
» So, what do you suggest specifically to do about it?
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: No issue can effectively envelope or remove another
Posted by: Camilla Cracchiolo
» out of nowhere
Posted by: YogiBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: taisamarie on Dec 21, 2007 11:17 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Two years ago I spent three days with my husband, visiting his family in south-eastern Texas. I swear if I heard the "I'm not racist, but..." followed by a blatantly racist remark such as (and yes, I heard this one!) "I'm not racists, but we never let our kids use the public pool cause the black kids just don't wash enough and they make the pool dirty"...
I wanted to slap more than one person on the trip. If you have to preface a comment with that line, you're probably about to say something racist.
(I'm not trying to pick on the region, just making a statement of where I was when it happened because up until that time I had never heard anyone use that phrase)
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» Excuse me, but we are talking about racism in America, and...
Posted by: jimidee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: defrag on Dec 21, 2007 12:09 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
OMG this is gonna bug me all day. How "derogatory" could it have been, exactly? Does she maybe mean dismissive rather than derogatory? Can anyone guess what he said?
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» RE: Is anybody else curious what "Sam" said?
Posted by: Jbuuty
Comments are closed-
Posted by: audiodef on Dec 21, 2007 12:21 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are a couple of points in this article that I think are a bit of a stretch (something about Obama being too laid-back being a racial statement, for example), but other than that, this is a good read for whites seeking to understand the world around us and looking for enlightenment.
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» RE: Good read for whites
Posted by: no1kstate
» Shove it up your racist ass
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: Shove it up your racist ass
Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: Shove it up your racist ass
Posted by: Jbuuty
» So we "humanize" each other by acknowledging a ficticious racial hierarchy?
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: So we "humanize" each other by acknowledging a ficticious racial hierarchy?
Posted by: no1kstate
» The questions you answer for yourself are wrong.
Posted by: jimidee
» misappropriation
Posted by: no1kstate
» Who died and made you king?
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Who died and made you king?
Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: Who died and made you king?
Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: Who died and made you king?
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Who died and made you king?
Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: Who died and made you king?
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Who died and made you king?
Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: Shove it up your racist ass
Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: Shove it up your racist ass
Posted by: no1kstate
» Shove it up your race-baiting ass
Posted by: timemachinist
» "The differences in people are cultural"...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Shove it up your troll ass
Posted by: YogiBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: 060730 on Dec 21, 2007 1:00 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, but that's not all they showed me -- i also learned a new mantra -- lack of opportunity does not imply virtue -- and discovered first hand how vicious people of any color could be to someone of another color.
it's systemic -- some of the most self-effacing revolutionaries i know spout power to the people out of one side of their mouths and out of the other make excuses why their position as the vanguard makes it necessary for them to be above accountability toward those very same people. Do they always use this lack of accountability correctly? what do you think? will they admit that? what do you think?
nobody is immune from mean people who don't like them because of what they 'might' do. people create contexts where they don't have to be subject to the (perceived?) instability of other people. it's hard for anyone who has acquired that kind of insulation (or it could be called privilege) to disabuse themselves of all negative behavior linked to that privilege.
and it seems to be common for all races to have their own trophies -- their black friends and their white friends, their latina or asian girlfriends ... it's facts.
some people fancy they are above it. some people may really be immune to such things. for me, that much exposure just made me less overly-cautious. sometimes i do the right thing. sometimes i avoid dealing with people i assume will treat me a certain way.
i have no clue how to change this.
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» RE: How much do we want to know?
Posted by: jefhadist
» "...discovered first hand how vicious people of any color could be to someone of another color."
Posted by: jimidee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: yellow on Dec 21, 2007 1:07 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: MLMrev on Dec 21, 2007 1:21 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Check it out: ATTENTION WHITE PEOPLE: WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM!"
Bob Avakian has also spoken to this issue at length in some of his powerful speeches available online. I highly suggest people check it out...if you wanna move towards a better world!
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» RE: Interesting links or are they?
Posted by: yellow
» BITCHING AND BLAMEMONGERING!
Posted by: asilsfable
» RE: BITCHING AND BLAMEMONGERING! And nasty too!!
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: benzene on Dec 21, 2007 1:53 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is sick that young black women are initiated into adulthood by their first hair relaxer, by their first step towards lifelong conformity. It is sick that their natural hair isn't accepted and is viewed as a stigma. And it is sick that white culture views this as acceptable, because "nappy hair is ugly anyway".
It is sick that interracial couples are automatically subject to racist assumptions. If it is a white woman with a black man, the assumption is that she is an insatiable adulteress or that he is a scumbag thug. If it is a black woman with a white man, the assumption is that she is a gold-digging slut or that he just has "jungle fever". It is sick that interracial relationships are viewed in a political context of rebellion rather than their true context of mutual love.
It is sick that interracial kids are subject to taunting from both sides. Black kids think they're too white. White kids think they're too black. And while adults may rave about "how cute" interracial children all are, that very attitude marginalizes the children themselves.
Finally, it is sick that white culture is so smug and complicit in the assumption that everything is hunky-dory. "We gave those folk the right to vote and we criminalized discrimination, what more do they want? Racism is over!" The unwillingness of white people to recognize their moral complicity in racial injustice is in itself toxic. And if the Watts riots et al weren't enough to change that attitude, I don't know what will.
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Posted by: aprileileen on Dec 21, 2007 2:09 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Good Article
Posted by: jefhadist
» RE: Good Article
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: MargoM on Dec 21, 2007 3:36 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm white and not Latina. I'm also heterosexual, female, semi-disabled (I have a disability that social security sometimes classifies as disabled depending on the severity of the condition) and middle-aged (so experience some ageism).
All that being said, it wasn't until I lived for a year in South Korea that I really got upset/angry about some experiences of prejudice. I can't say that I exactly understand all instances of prejudice, but I think it sensitized me to it a bit more.
South Korea is about 98.5% Korean, 1% Chinese and .5% Other, so it's pretty homogeneous as far as race is concerned. However, the culture there is pretty hierarchical, something like this: Men at the top, then women, then children, then most foreigners (some foreigners fit elsewhere in the schema, such as powerful foreign men). Also, I asked about this and was told that Koreans think that blondes (I am blonde) are "sexy". Despite dressing way more conservatively in Seoul than I do here in Miami, and also being twice as old as some of the other foreign English teachers, I was molested twice on the subway and had other problems with men there. Age was also an issue there and I had women students who were maybe 5-10 years older than me who emphasized their age to make sure I understood that I was to respect them as my elder (5 years when you're in your 40's is hardly significant in my American opinion).
There are Koreans who hate this system, and I was involved there with an anarchist group that was very nice and egalitarian.
After the year I spent in Seoul, I really began to wonder what it is like to be in a minority and how people want to be treated.
One thing that I felt for myself, was that I wanted to be taken seriously as a person (not as a white, or a female, or a foreigner, or....). I imagine that everyone would like that, to be taken seriously as a person. How to do that, though, might vary from culture to culture. Maybe this is respect that I'm talking about. Who doesn't want to be respected?
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Posted by: Joe on Dec 21, 2007 5:05 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another thing i can guarantee is most liberals on this site live in conservative/non-liberal neighborhoods; not in the liberal destruction they advocate for everyone else to their demise (ie african americans). liberals are just a group of big mouth hypocrites filled with guilt and instead of fixing problems themselves they rather the government do it so they wont have to get their hands dirty.
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» RE: finally some truth...here's more
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: Morgaine Swann on Dec 21, 2007 5:37 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Second, we need to get to the source of all this inequality and that source is supported by most members of every race in this country, and that is the Asian patriarchal value system known as Christianity. (I should include all of the Yawist groups, but the others - Islam, Judaism and Mormonism - are singled out for discrimination by Christians, too.) It is continually used, correctly or not, to justify racism, sexism, nationalism, Euro-centrism, capitalism, elitism, gay bashing, destruction of indigenous cultures and oppression of any other element of society not approved by the almost exclusively white male clergy of both the Protestant and Catholic faiths.
It's the single greatest barrier to social justice. It's why so many African Americans won't throw their support behind the gay rights movement. It's why so many men can refer to the mutilation and honor killings of women as "cultural" and feel justified in paying women in their offices 76 cents for every dollar they pay a man. It's why Native American children were shipped off to schools run by the church and punished for speaking their tribal languages. It's why there's a societal preference for nuclear families - a relatively new element of society and not a very successful one - rather than blended, adoptive, gay or matriarchal families. It's why Republicans think anyone who is poor is immoral or otherwise lacking and therefore not deserving of help or empathy. It's what enables them to think of welfare as an "entitlement program" instead of the basic decency of making sure the poorest segment of society is not left to the wolves while the elites revel in unimaginable wealth built on the backs of the poor. It's what makes the red-neck with the Confederate flag in his truck feel like a good person even if he uses the "n" word with every other breath. It's what makes mothers proud to offer up their children's lives in service of Halliburton's bottom line. Think about it before you reject what I'm saying. Have you ever stepped back and looked at how our culture evolved as it did? What was the one constant, driving force?
We need to get real about the source of the hate, and we need to root it out at the source. As long as this culture pours its collective energy into a value system that was out-dated 2000 years ago, we're going to be stuck right where we are.
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» RE: First, let me thank you
Posted by: no1kstate
» Christianity + Philosophy = Western Hegemony
Posted by: eriktrips
» RE: Christianity + Philosophy = Western Hegemony
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Constantinian Christians
Posted by: peacelf
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Posted by: sofla100 on Dec 21, 2007 8:23 PM
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» RE: The Distribution of Income in America is Heavily Skewed Against Blacks, Why?
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: chlamor on Dec 21, 2007 8:51 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Individual acts can palliate but cannot end, these problems.
To redesign social systems we need first to acknowledge their colossal unseen dimensions. The silences and denials surrounding privilege are the key political surrounding privilege are the key political tool here. They keep the thinking about equality or equity incomplete, protecting unearned advantage and conferred dominance by making these subject taboo. Most talk by whites about equal opportunity seems to me now to be about equal opportunity to try to get into a position of dominance while denying that systems of dominance exist.
It seems to me that obliviousness about white advantage, like obliviousness about male advantage, is kept strongly acculturated in the United States so as to maintain the myth of meritocracy, the myth that democratic choice is equally available to all. Keeping most people unaware that freedom of confident action is there for just a small number of people props up those in power and serves to keep power in the hands of the same groups that have most of it already.
One of the most important things that we all have to come to grips with is that RACISM KILLS (as do sexism and homophobia, and all the other oppressions.) If NOLA didn't show the world that for once and for all, it showed us nothing.
So many people don't seem to understand what racism even is. "Are you saying ________ is racist?" "Oh, no, I'd never say THAT." BULLSHIT. Of course ________ is racist. And so is everyone else who can't see that it was the racism (and classism) killing NOLA residents more even than the flood, or who shies away from charging most of our leaders and our whole government, the entire system is racist to the core.
It's as if they think racism (or any of the other oppressions) is necessarily a CONSCIOUS construct: "I really don't like black people -- I think they're inferior, so let's not fund the levees and then someday they may die."
No, perhaps the worst, but certainly the most intransigent aspect of racism is the part(s) based on SUBconscious or even UNconscious beliefs that there are people who simply don't count as much, for whatever reason. But the funny thing is, those people tend overwhelmingly to fall into the oppressed groups. "Oh, it's only black folk (so who cares?)," or "Oh, it's only poor folk (who are lazy and therefore deserve what they get) and old people (past their prime and useless) anyway."
The US is a nation born of genocide, suckled on slavery, and weaned on apartheid, and the weaning process has been largely confined to a bottle at board meetings.
And as someone else mentioned, maybe here, maybe elsewhere, the sin, in the eyes of the white and affluent, is not the racism itself, but being reminded of it.
To be fair, it is so deeply ingrained that most do not even realize it, and their indignation is quite sincere when they insist that they are not a bit racist, some of their best friends are black, and they (or their parents) even marched in Selma.
Deep In The Heart Of Nowhere
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Posted by: Racumin on Dec 21, 2007 8:52 PM
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In San Francisco segregation is so bad. I've heard people say it's worse than before the 60's. The city tried in vain to bus the kids around the city to reintegrate. A stupid political maneuver. They'll never try to fix the cause. Gentrification and discriminatory real estate practices. It's so sad. This is supposed to be the liberal city. Bullshit.
It's interesting how racism is different in the U.S. from other countries. Here in Latin America there is a lot of racism, but "white" guilt is non-existent. The good thing about that is that you don't see the aggression. This is probably because there was more mixing here. People of different races can live next to each other and respect each other. The only time I hear an overtly racist remark is from the wealthy, which is a minority.
There is still racism and white privilege here. I think there is more hope here though, because people are willing to talk about it in a positive manner. The liberals here are far from feeling guilty, mainly because of a bigger class problem and Uncle Sam messing with us so much.
The level of hostility here, as seen in this forum, does not occur in Latin America, when discussing racism. I live in a nicer country though, but I suspect other Latin American countries are similar. I don't know. It feels like people are more respectful here.
I also notice people like to compare the sizes of their brain-cocks. They attack each other's grammar and insignificant errors. why?
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» RE: great article
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: c.elegans on Dec 21, 2007 9:27 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
but i'm glad to see that you raised questions and offered probable factors that have led to this.
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» RE: loved this article
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: nonamegal on Dec 21, 2007 9:28 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i make it clear to these friends that i wouldn't want to have anything to do with a man interested in me solely because of some notion they have of the servitude or exoticism of asian women (they'd be sorely disappointed, anyway-- i'm a big-boned, beer-drinking midwestern girl who don't take no shit). but i'm sick and tired of hearing about how i should use my race and racism to my alleged advantage. stereotypes about my race aren't assets to me under any circumstance.
margaret cho said it best: "the only reason i would walk on your back is if there were something on the other side of you that i wanted."
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» just wondering?
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
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Posted by: lwbaby on Dec 21, 2007 9:40 PM
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So what if white males are the ruling class here in the US. It is no different than any rulng class in any other country or culture.
Here's one for ya. I have no Black friends. None. Do you know why? because, as this article stated so succinctly, we have to watch what we say, even if we offend by accident.
Life is to short to have to worry about such crap.
Soo, I'll continue to be friends with people I am familiar with and whose sensibilities are well documented in my mind and I'm not apt to offend accidentally.
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» RE: White privilege is what it is. m.
Posted by: anonymous black writer
» RE: White privilege is what it is. m.
Posted by: YogiBear
» LOL that you assume I'm a him. m.
Posted by: lwbaby
» RE: LOL that you assume I'm a him. m.
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: Camilla Cracchiolo on Dec 21, 2007 10:24 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Take the right to walk down the street without harrassment. Or to have proper police protection. ("Having the complexion for the protection" as they say.) This isn't a privilege, it's a fundamental human right. The problem isn't that the white person gets these things but that the person of color doesn't. Or the right to be judged by your accomplishments rather than skin color, or to have decent schools, health care and housing. I want a world where everyone gets this stuff.
Privilege to me is more something like having a second house when most can't even afford a first one. Or being rich when when so many have no home at all.
Calling human rights "privilege" sounds like something parents give little kids. "TV privileges, phone privileges". We shouldn't be in the position of kids whose ruling class parents can dispense and withhold these things if we are good. Granted, human rights get treated that way, but we shouldn't put up with it.
Plus, most white people are busting their asses and holding on by their fingernails. Naturally they have a bad reaction to being called privileged in such a situation; but I think they are much more sympathetic when the issue is put as one of the denial of fundamental human rights. It shows that you're not trying to take away the little they have but to make things better for everyone.
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» Thank You, Very True!
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: Thank You, Very True!
Posted by: Camilla Cracchiolo
» I'm Glad That You Pointed Out the Harm that Racism Does to Whites
Posted by: Kym525
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Posted by: InsertNameHere on Dec 21, 2007 11:36 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If I had any black friends, would I feel weird about watching it with them, or doing our impressions of it when discussing it, with its gratuitous use of 'the word that must not be used by whites'.
Maybe I should just say fuck it and come out and say 'That shit was funny as fuck nigga!' and maybe we can get past this already.
I may be white, but I don't have it that easy. There's plenty of folks who don't want me at their party, they're called the ultra-rich, and they aren't all white. They don't give a shit if you're black, yellow or plaid, if your poor, you're dead to them.
I think racial divides are convenient to keep people distracted from the common class struggle. A working class united is dangerous as hell, and they know it.
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» There's racism even within class divides
Posted by: asilsfable
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Posted by: lefty010 on Dec 22, 2007 7:32 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm so glad that you referenced Peggy MacIntosh's essay. I vaguely referenced this essay in other posts made earlier this week. I wonder if Alternet could run a copy of the essay?
I think your observations are spot on and the negative responses you have gotten may be based in the idea that if unearned white privilege is acknowledged, then something must be done about it. That would mean that people who have power might have to give some up and we all know that people just don't give up power.
Thank you for your courageous article.
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» RE: Bravo
Posted by: SusanBee
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Posted by: A. Servant on Dec 22, 2007 10:26 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reality is that most of us are being kept as slaves in a matrix of control; and we are acting in ways that maintain this system of slavery. And as slaves, we are being dominated, sickened, and imprisoned or threatened with imprisonment if we were to be "bad"; when our usefulness is over, we will be left to die or be killed. The lack of caring that we experience and too often fail to offer to others is not accidental--our indoctrination has been intentionally planned and executed by the modern slave masters.
Is there something we can do to ensure humane treatment for ourselves and our neighbors? If you're tired of being enslaved and seeing others threatened with increasing bondage, join us in Slaves Anonymous to start making grassroots changes that will improve the security of you and your family. You and your neighbors have the autonomy, creativity, diversity, passion and transcendence to become self-owners and create the conditions necessary for emancipation of your local community from the global tyranny of slavery or serfdom or corporatism or government or fascism or empire or debt-based money or psychopathy or whatever-you-want-to-call-it.
Let's work together: You stop it in your community; I'll stop it in mine.
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Posted by: snow on Dec 22, 2007 12:05 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
this article made my day -- it was kind of like a "welcome to my life" -- and i, by the way, interact with white people outside NYC, so whoever suggested it was limited to that -- think again.
nice job, keep it up !
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Posted by: Kym525 on Dec 22, 2007 2:04 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What these people fail to realize is that Biden's words, no matter how well-meant they were, are a reminder than this country has its own preconceived notions about blacks, and one of those notions is our lack of intelligence. Of course, we also have the mass media to thank for the continuing denigration of black people (some of that committed by our own, sadly). The thing is that we black folks already KNOW we have brilliance in our race. Duh! Why is it still a shock to so much of the country? Then again, when you get most--if not all--of your information about race from Faux News or BET, then I'm not all that surprised.
Okay, here's the solution--white people, STOP TRYING TO TELL THE REST OF US WHAT'S RACISM AND WHAT'S NOT! That, more than anything is what keeps the negative dialogue going. Here we have yet another example of white superiority rearing its ugly head. Sure, what might be a cut and dried situation to you (the most recent example--Barry Bonds vs. Roger Clemens), to most black people is a clear-cut case of racial bias. That's just the tip of a very deep iceberg, however.
The bottom line is you don't live with the spectre of racism, therefore not only can yhou not speak to when it happens, but you also have the luxury of distancing yourselves from it.
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» RE: How Most Blacks See Racism
Posted by: jimidee
» Once Again the White Guy Misses the Point...
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: Once Again the Black Guy Is Blinded by Race...
Posted by: jimidee
» Stop addressing me as "white person" --I'm just a person
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: Stop addressing me as "white person" --I'm just a person
Posted by: Kym525
» Play On!
Posted by: timemachinist
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NoPCZone on Dec 22, 2007 2:19 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sure there are folkways and norms that come along with the setting of your upbringing, but money seems to be able to paper them over with most Americans. I guess, put another way, Americans are whores for money. If you have enough green, whatever color you are is beautiful.
Not advocating- just observing.
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Posted by: data23 on Dec 22, 2007 2:35 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I get so sick...
Posted by: myxomarit
» Oh wretched thing I am!
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: Oh wretched thing I am!
Posted by: picklebarrela55
» Mainstream media & leftist writers like this one are the ones who most perpetuate a false racial cat
Posted by: timemachinist
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Posted by: cheonast on Dec 22, 2007 2:43 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I guess we should cut Jung a little slack since he's an intern. But he should have passed this piece, which reads like something written in haste (to beat a holiday deadline?), by a copy-editor, someone who could have shortened it, tightened it, and rid it of nonsensical statements, viz.:
"Arguing for primacy of dismantling one hierarchy over another, or simply leaving one out, is a limited and ultimately doomed strategy for liberation. (An argument is not a strategy, "primacy" needs an article, and what or who, pray, is to be liberated, and from what or whom?)
We readers would surely benefit from Jung's telling us, in vivid and clear language, what he knows, what he's experienced--not what he surmises. He should resist any urges to draw up lists of banal commonplaces. And he should get started on drafting and researching his holiday-deadline stories a few weeks earlier....
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» Jung the messenger
Posted by: SusanBee
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Posted by: Jase on Dec 22, 2007 5:36 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I found many of the comments to the article extremely familiar and once again extremely disappointing. To some of the individuals who come here and accuse the writer of being too vague and not giving enough suggestions I think you need to keep a few things in mind.
While he was discussing several things that many white liberals "don't seem to get" he was trying to get readers to see things from a different point of view and to get certain individuals to think outside of the box, or at least get a peak, that they've been mentality encased in the vast majority of their lives.
Everything that he says, and I've seen this article pasted in a few minority discussion forums already (impressive after a day!), is something the vast majority of minorities I've seen discuss it understand completely or relate to.
I can understand how it might be something that a person who doesn't deal with these issues on a regular, or even sporadic, basis might have a hard time grasping, but to put it bluntly I don't think the author could have dumbed it down any further. So if you need to read it 2 or 3 more times to figure out where he's coming from (doesn't mean you have to agree with it) please do so. If you don't get it by that time you either won't get it or simply refuse to.
As a black individual who recently graduated from an 86% white university where well over half of the students identified themselves as "liberals" I'm all too familiar with virtually 1 - 10 of what was listed in this article.
If you really need a suggestion as to what action to take I think it would start with more education. Read more articles, blogs, research regarding racism/white privilege/white supremacy/etc. Even the material you don't necessarily agree with. Get a different perspective on things and compare that perspective with others and your own. It's always good to at least try to understand where someone else is coming from even if you don't see eye to eye.
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» so, what's your answer?
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» RE: so, what's your answer?
Posted by: Jase
» Thanks for telling me my responsibilities
Posted by: timemachinist
» We're ALL that way --right?
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: We're ALL that way --right?
Posted by: Jase
» Well then please tell me what "race" IS so I can believe in it
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: Well then please tell me what "race" IS so I can believe in it
Posted by: no1kstate
» You tell me its the institution well you know, you better free your mind instead
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: You tell me its the institution well you know, you better free your mind instead
Posted by: no1kstate
» But you're still right there is institutional racism in drug war
Posted by: timemachinist
» I have the answer!
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: myxomarit on Dec 22, 2007 5:59 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
thank you, alex.
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Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Dec 22, 2007 7:31 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i am tired of being judged because i am melanin challenged (deficient?). in fourth grade i was one of two melanin challenged girls in my class; most of the other children in that class had more melanin in their skin - to one degree or another - than i. i confess, i wanted 'black' hair because those little black girls i went to school with could make all those neat twisted braid-y things that defied gravity...when the best i could do with my - yes then long blonde (yuck!) hair - was either pony tails or 'regular' braids (any one familiar with the whoopi goldberg routine where in she wished for my goldie locks?? i want her to know that I wanted HER hair!)
NO, i've never been asked to leave a place of business because i am melanin challenged, however, by the same token i've never asked a melanin endowed person to leave my place of business BECAUSE of their melanin status...
i have never thought of anyone with more melanin in their skin as inferior and i've known plenty of melanin challenged idiots...
i've often wondered how this plays out in canada or the uk...where those with more melanin do not refer to themselves as african-canadians or african-anglicans and should i begin referring to myself as canadian-american? YES, i understand that neither of these places has a history of chattel slavery like the u.s., and (please correct me if i am wrong) they never had jim crow laws...however they did benefit from southern chattel slavery (but that's a topic for another time).
i mean really - when ARE we going to get over it already?? when are we going to admit that we ALL (except for those who do not possess eyesight) see differences in skin tone (and height, weight, etc..) and make any number of judgments based on those differences/similarities...and that in an of itself does NOT make me or you a racist...(was it racist for the taqueria owner to look at me incredulously when i asked for the hottest salsa? was it racist when the thai waiter looked visibly shocked when i ordered thai iced tea at the thai restaurant?)
over my life i've had friends with varying degrees of melanin in their skin...and i've never thought of any of them as hyphenated friends, just friends...
i don't care if melanin endowed folks like me or not, as long as its not based on my lack of melanin!!!
oh, and i don't deny that there ARE racists in the u.s, but consciously or unconsciously, i am not one of them...but i know you will say i am. alas, it will never get better!
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» RE: at what point...
Posted by: snow
» RE: at what point...
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» You make sense
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: at what point...
Posted by: no1kstate
» Most of us deal with prejudice in some way
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: Most of us deal with prejudice in some way
Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: Most of us deal with prejudice in some way
Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: at what point...
Posted by: data23
» RE: at what point...
Posted by: no1kstate
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Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Dec 22, 2007 8:13 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Missing the point...
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: Missing the point...which is that
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: chrichelle on Dec 22, 2007 10:12 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: xcellent
Posted by: YogiBear
» I would suggest that you haven't a clue...
Posted by: jimidee
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Posted by: lc on Dec 23, 2007 6:31 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Religion is like imprinting a chicken. By the time the Big Three Religions get done brainwashing US that only they have the keys to heaven, we are all imprinted bigots before the age of reason willing to join any Crusade to any Holy Land, the Ends Justify the Means: "Exterminate the varmits."
The whoopers we tell to children, blatant lies like Santa Clause, set US up for adult denial of our part in the greater scheme of things. We are raised from birth to discriminate against others: skin color, hair length or style (hippies and whores), clothing (suits vs everybody else), economic status (the other side of the tracks), education (private vs public), etc.etc.etc.
Genetics proves that all of us are mulattoes. All of US share genes from other races. There is no pure race left.
IM
Belteshazzar
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Posted by: DPS on Dec 23, 2007 7:25 AM
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Posted by: cragner on Dec 23, 2007 8:14 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It made me think how sad that there are still educated young people in the progressive community doing the finger pointing wag.
I rarely comment on stories, because although I don't agree with most of what I read I acknowledge that they challenge me to think. But this story was offensive enough to lay out something that is not presented....for those of us that are mixed race and comfortable in our skin and in our 'multiple' communities, apparently we have brothers and sisters who insist on boxes defined by race - and nothing I do, no matter what the motivation will ever be good enough to please my 'other' half.
Thank goodness we live in America where we are free to criticize everything that we are jealous of....but would do EXACTLY the same if we had the opportunity.
But thank the editorial staff for making me think. I've thought so much about it that I'm not going to bother to try any longer promote diversity. Can't shake the knapsack, right?
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Posted by: ladysealight on Dec 23, 2007 12:54 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have only two words: Boulder, Colorado.
I lived and studied in that joke for nearly two years and experienced just about every aspect of boutique multiculturalism possible. If any of you have been here, I'm sure you can relate.
The town prides itself on its "culture" and "diversity". However this label always confused me provided that nearly the entire town is sheltered white "granolas" who wouldn't know culture if it was begging for money at their door. So I ask myself...how does an entire town of seemingly educated people (this town is also home to CU Boulder, where I studied until as of late) reach such a level of ignorance?
To fuel this observation of mine, I have an example. My boyfriend is a black/white/hispanic Panamanian. We were walking through King Soopers in the heart of Boulder and a girl pointed at him and asked her father, and I quote "Why is that man that color?". And this is coming from the children of people who run stores like "Left Hand Books" and sip boba tea twice a day in the comfort of a modern awning blasting "indie" music.
I rest my case.
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» What is so racist about a child's question?
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: What is so racist about a child's question?
Posted by: ladysealight
» It was just a kid...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Liberal towns are racist too!
Posted by: tapadance
» Scolded? She should have been backhanded...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Liberal towns are racist too!
Posted by: ladysealight
» RE: Liberal towns are racist too!
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: tapadance on Dec 23, 2007 6:17 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After all, as a white woman, who went to college with other white people. I married a fellow white person, could not be helped, he was my soul mate. I have no idea how to change my personal history, other than not going for the degree I wanted, or not marrying the man I loved.
I reached a point, at about the time my WP program told me I was starting page three, where I realized nothing I could say would change any minds. It would be ignored by the author, or twisted into additional proof that I was a closet racist, just because of my genome. And I decided to do this instead.
There is no way I can as a human being remove the backpack of humanity I wear. But, when even something as small as the lack of a Asian- American winner in American Idol is considered proof that white America is racist, it will be impossible to convince the author otherwise.
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» Free your mind, little lady, and the rest will follow...
Posted by: jimidee
» I dare say...
Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: I dare say...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: I dare say...
Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: Free your mind, little lady, and the rest will follow...
Posted by: tapadance
» RE: As I read this,
Posted by: no1kstate
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Posted by: Madame Defarge on Dec 23, 2007 7:19 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's also easier to be Chinese, in China, Russian in Russia, and French in France. Anyone who's lived abroad will say the same thing, you're lucky if the locals are friendly and treat you as their equals, but prepare to be snubbed. Even though Sarkosy was born in France, his Hungarian father was well aware of the hurdles that someone from an immigrant family faces in that country.
There's something deep within in the human condition that sizes up strangers as, "like me" or "not like me". Should we try to overcome that? Absolutely! Will it happen overnight? Probably not.
In the meantime, my heart goes out to all of those who've been hurt by both well meaning and not so well meaning people, who are unable to get beyond their inner barriers. May they also learn to make allowances for those of who mean well, but are clumsy.
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Posted by: ladysealight on Dec 24, 2007 12:08 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The fact is I don't care what white yuppies want to do in white yuppie ville. They may get on with their lives in complete seclusion from any type of reality and be happy with it, because it's their right. It's when they assert that they know everything about everyone else, and everyone else's culture that gets on my nerves. I for one don't know everything about everyone's culture and don't claim to. Having a black boyfriend does not put me in that place. I mentioned that simply for the sake of the story. It does, however, provide a very different perspective on race relations. And yes, people may feel comfortable in their home towns. Just as black people feel comfortable in black communities. But to assert that you're something you're not to such a level is ridiculous. And for nearly an entire town to live under the same delusion is even more ridiculous. I just ask why.
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Posted by: sweetpeas on Dec 24, 2007 4:42 PM
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sweetpea
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Posted by: chlamor on Dec 24, 2007 6:17 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.
3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.
4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.
5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.
6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.
7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.
8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.
9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.
10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.
11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.
12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.
13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.
14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.
15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.
16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.
17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.
18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.
19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.
20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.
21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.
22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.
23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.
24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.
25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.
More here:
White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack
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» A Generation Ago
Posted by: gellero
» RE: A Generation Ago- white privilege still alive 20 years later
Posted by: mcubed
» RE: 400 years of history (edit)
Posted by: mcubed
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Posted by: hole11 on Dec 24, 2007 11:55 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Other countries are just as racist. Go to Japan and see if you get in all the clubs. Go to Africa and see how accepted you are. Moslem? Good luck in the middle east if you are not.
It's easy to judge others because there are quotas. Think the best person got the job because of knowledge or color of skin and maybe gender? Who knows. But you have to think about it when it seems like that person doesn't perform their duties to your expectations.
White people are like everyone else and just as screwed up.
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» RE: Doesn't Explain OJ (MR. NIGGA)
Posted by: Racumin
» RE: Doesn't Explain OJ (MR. NIGGA)
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: gellero on Dec 25, 2007 8:18 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Condi Rice ?? Colin Powell? Have to agree.... they get more respect from the white community than the black community. Maybe that's because they speak proper english rather than vulgar hip-hop ebonics. But then again, why would anyone who has achieved that level of success even want to identify with that crowd?? Because they happen to have the same skin color?? They've obviously risen above that.
I'm sure there are people who would like to believe that race is the case when they aren't respected .......so they can blame their own individual lack of success and respect on something or someone other than themselves.
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Posted by: gellero on Dec 25, 2007 8:44 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe the question should be why does an Asian neurosurgeon get more respect than an Asian store clerk. Or a white store clerk. Or a black store clerk. After all, they're all the same, right?
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» RE: I Wonder.....
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: Kym525 on Dec 26, 2007 10:32 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Racism is a mental disorder. It would have to be. Think of all the mental leaps in logic and facts that a racist has to make in order to function, especially in this increasingly multicultural world. Everywhere the racist looks, there are people around him/her who don't look, speak or act as they do. They can run, but they cannot hide. Racists have lied, cheated, stolen and killed--all in the name of this thing they call superiority.
Frankly, articles like this and the expected denials of those who are scared of the word "privilege" are the reasons why I can't hate an entire group of people whose raison d'etre has been based on a false notion of superiority. I consider it racial insecurity. One is insecure only if they feel they are lacking in some way or form to another. So, the question begs to be asked--why do whites feel so insecure to other races? Could it be that Lucy, the oldest ancestor of mankind wasn't found somewhere in the UK or Germany, but in Olduvai Gorge in Africa? Could it be that in spite of all the horrors of the Middle Passage and slavery that black people survived and thrived the most dire of circumstances? That Harriet Tubman, an unlettered slave, managed to outwit the best and brightest of slave catchers and bring hundreds of her fellow slaves out of bondage? Yeah, I guess if I'd been made a fool out of by someone I considered three-quarters of a person, I'd feel the need to justify my existence too.
The problem though is because of this false idol of racial superiority, it has become increasingly difficult for well-meaning people on all sides to have an honest (if painful) dialogue about this subject. Sad to say, whites are beginning to pay for the utter stupidity and self-centeredness of their past, and the bill is about to get higher.
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» RE: Thoughts on Racism...
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Thoughts on Racism...
Posted by: Kym525
» RE: Thoughts on Racism...
Posted by: yellow
» I don't have to justify anything
Posted by: tapadance
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Posted by: johnshadows on Dec 26, 2007 7:16 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I tell, you, this is the kind of thing ...
Posted by: no1kstate
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Posted by: schnozmeiser on Dec 26, 2007 7:46 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I see so much guilt in these comments, it's so frustrating. Fighting racism is such a tough struggle, thank you for writing honestly about it.
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» I don't feel any guilt, just frustration
Posted by: tapadance
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Posted by: hms2004 on Dec 27, 2007 7:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: brigidmilton on Jan 2, 2008 11:22 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As an early 20's white anti-racist woman activist, coming from a rural lower-class background but recently having graduated from college and so being jettisoned into the middle class, my mind reacted in agreement with this critique of white liberals (with the exception of the overgeneralized title). However, my gut reaction was tinged with anger because, like other critiques of the stereotypical "white liberal" I've seen, the article felt, in the end, like an entrapment. In other words, I, as a white woman, am left feeling disempowered when it comes to acting against racism, as if there's nothing that I can do about it. I can't be a conservative, I can't be a liberal, I can't be a progressive, all have racism bleeding throughout (and I'm agreeing with this, it's definitely true).
Now, the bad thing about this is that I have seen other white people who have learned the lessons discussed in this article eventually disengage entirely, attempting to distance themselves from our racist society while not doing anything to change it. I have seen others react in a David Horowitz style of getting so frustrated with not being able to ever do anything right that they go from considering themselves anti-racist to turning around and embracing white supremacy.
I would not ask the author as an Asian-American to help make white people feel empowered to act against racism. If he finds a way to do it, fantastic, I will be tremendously grateful, but in the end it is a white responsibility. So this is directed more to the white people out there.
How do we as a people start finding ways to empower ourselves and others to act against racism and de-construct systems of oppression?
How do we maintain a constant critique of ourselves and white supremacy in ourselves without having a reaction of disengagement or a point blank turn back to embracing white supremacy?
In other words, how do we find our appropriate place at the table of an honest dialogue, without stomping all over the table (as we've historically done and continue to do) but also without getting up and leaving the table altogether?
How do we meet the special needs of the white working class, who do not have the privilege of time and energy to sit around discussing, contemplating, and critiquing issues of race?
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Posted by: mmckinl on Dec 21, 2007 3:10 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In any organized society from wolves to apes to human beings recognitional differentiation is the key for survival let alone success. Stimulation requires a learned response to fit into a social equation. From the white elites to the blacks in ghettos there is on going differentiation.
I can see the difference between myself and my parents as far as racial differentiation. My childs generation will be more circumspect than mine.
Yes, everyone needs to reflect on rationalizations of their behavior towards others. But it goes deeper than that, to recognition of our trained identity, and the very premises to which we have been socialized.
The problem is not the knapsack. The answer is the person we carry, and the response we bring to bear.
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» if thy eye offends thee
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
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Posted by: KaptainSpiffy on Dec 21, 2007 3:25 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
all that talk and no real solutions are offered. i'm left feeling unable to 'do anything, say anything, feel anything' that might 'please' the author to 'prove' myself to be labeled something other than what he has framed me with. who am i to be? can i blame the author for this?
walk a mile in my shoes. what are the answers?
anyone?
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» RE: if thy eye offends thee
Posted by: madmac10
» Dialogue?
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Dialogue?
Posted by: off-the-radar 2
» Don't worry, I haven't offended anyone. None of the "progressives" here are race-baiters, right?
Posted by: timemachinist
» Thine answer was yon, but thou hast missed it in thy haste.
Posted by: benzene
» thanks
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» Just scrub harder? Part One
Posted by: timemachinist
» Just Scrub Harder? Part Two
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: if thy eye offends thee
Posted by: Dragonwoman
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Dec 21, 2007 4:21 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Some of these points have truth to them, but so what? Everybody makes blunders in everyday conversation. Many people do things with good intentions, and maybe even good results, even though they might come across wrong now and then. Will we keep penalizing or discouraging them because they're human?
Don't black, brown, yellow, purple, and green people make verbal slips when talking about white people? Should white people hold it against them and say: Here's a set of rules about how you should talk to us, talk about us, what you should do, how you should do it...?
This quote says it all: "[W]ho is this white man telling me how to talk about race?" Talk about the pot calling the kettle white...or something like that.
Most of us know that not all blacks and other minorities are uptight, defensive, angry, PC-obsessed people waiting to jump on whitie's next verbal slip. But articles like this seem to perpetuate the idea that they are.
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» Who is this (white) Asian American telling me how to talk about race?
Posted by: jimidee
» Idn't about "PC"
Posted by: benzene
» RE: Idn't about "PC"
Posted by: suprmark
» RE: Idn't about "PC"
Posted by: benzene
» RE: Idn't about "PC"
Posted by: Moira61
» Your brother's or sister's flaws are also your own
Posted by: mejsmith
» Outstanding Points!!!
Posted by: Gravitas
» RE: Get real; let's try.
Posted by: jjdoggie
» RE: Get real; let's try.
Posted by: jjdoggie
» RE: Get real; let's try.
Posted by: drmeow
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Posted by: Shade on Dec 21, 2007 4:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Oops!
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
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Posted by: h bee on Dec 21, 2007 5:19 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.stirfryseminars.com/pages/coloroffear.htm
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Posted by: Shehova on Dec 21, 2007 5:30 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: mab on Dec 21, 2007 5:57 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
michael
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» and? . . .
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
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Posted by: madmac10 on Dec 21, 2007 6:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
An Indian friend was discussing his Master's Thesis with me recently: The Feminization of Indian Males by British Colonialism. His contention is that British imperialist power emasculates its enemies through propaganda. This discussion forced me to think about how American imperialism does the opposite. We tend to hyper-masculate our enemies. For instance, we have turned a handful of largely impotent muslim fanatics into rabid nihilistic hordes.
Likewise, we instill into the heartland a fear of the beefy 50-Cent thug who wants to burn down the suburbs with boom-boxes and bling. His woman is pneumatically curved and insatiable, and available for a pittance. Massing on our southern border are waves of tattooed monsters just slathering for cheap health care and easy money watering lawns. Asians are portrayed as gun-toting maniacs who will break down your door.
Even white people are engulfed in hyper-masculating stereotypes as crazed bikers and rampaging rednecks. It is a complex issue--too complex to ignore the occasional feminization that our media propagandizes as well (as Mr. Jung has thoughtfully included in his remarkable essay.) But we buy these stereotypes with hard-earned money and then we feed them to our fears. This is basically how the west has empowered fundamentalism in all its ugliest forms across the globe.
Simple answer? Doubtful. But I think the best start is to teach yourself to think critically--about everything. Ignore those paths to the left or the right... think for yourself.
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» Hate to sound cliched but much of this is about class. Note the reference to the white biker menace
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: Luther Blissett on Dec 21, 2007 6:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What does it mean to be "white"? Irish and Italians are certainly white, but that wasn't always the case. Thomas Carlyle said about the Irish, "Black-lead them and put them over with the n---ers." Are Jews white? Eastern Europeans? Are the "black" and "brown" people I mentioned earlier even "black" and "brown"?
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» i think your point about 'what does it mean to be 'white' is important
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» The author is suggesting that white folks have a corner...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: The author is suggesting that white folks have a corner...
Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: "White racist comments come with an extra punch that minorities don't have."
Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: "White racist comments come with an extra punch that minorities don't have."
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: "White racist comments come with an extra punch that minorities don't have."
Posted by: no1kstate
» How can black people be racist? Racism takes POWER to enact!
Posted by: Thetorganization
» Dude, I AM above racism...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Don't get all defensive.
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: jefhadist on Dec 21, 2007 6:28 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» oh please, god, no.
Posted by: reevolve
» I know what you mean
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: If only...
Posted by: jefhadist
» bogus cop-out
Posted by: jefhadist
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Posted by: sausage on Dec 21, 2007 6:58 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And everytime Alternet.org posts an op-ed piece or new item on "illegal immigration" here comes another swarm of suburban-raised Whities saying they ain't racist, their omas and bumpas came through Ellis Island but, damn, them Mexie-kans shore talk funny and they smell bad too!
This piece also reminds me of an essey written by a Grinnell College student on why she was voting for Ralph Nader in 2000. Her parents were both tenured professors at The University Of Iowa and she's spent a summer of outreach work in the slums of Quito, Ecuador so she knew all about Latin American poverty and was just certain Al Gore would ignore it. lol
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» RE: Spot on analysis...and so f*cking true
Posted by: tweedster
» I don't have to suggest sh*t
Posted by: sausage
» oh, jesus. now you are just being an ass
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» and you gave me a '1' rating
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: I don't have to suggest sh*t
Posted by: Lauren
» Bigoted Undertext
Posted by: benzene
» RE: Bigoted Undertext
Posted by: suprmark
» Why don't you just move in next door instead of whining?
Posted by: timemachinist
» What exists in peoples' minds is often more relevant than science
Posted by: benzene
» Exactly what role would you say "race" plays?
Posted by: timemachinist
» yay!
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: Spot on analysis...and so f*cking true
Posted by: Bizby
» RE: Spot on analysis...and so f*cking true
Posted by: asilsfable
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Posted by: PandaBear on Dec 21, 2007 7:17 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: kevred on Dec 21, 2007 7:19 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Its basic premise is true, of course. Of course white liberals have the same whatever-it-is that other white people (more specifically, those of the same socio-economic group, something this piece seems to gloss over) have.
And there's little doubt that all the individual observations are based on true moments. Heck, I'm a white liberal and none of this is any surprise to me. I've seen examples of several of these things myself.
But despite the quick disclaimer early in the piece, it quickly starts to read like a "here are some personal observations I'm extrapolating into universal truths" session, which is better for provocation than increasing understanding. And sure, there's a place for provocation. But on a topic that already has a venomous history of stereotyping, playing it this way may well be counter-productive.
So, the piece isn't really about white liberals at all. It's about specific white liberals in the social circle of one person in New York City--and perhaps not the most modest or working-class circle, at that?
Here's my suggestion: make this a piece about your personal experience with a certain socio-economic class of liberals in NYC, and what the implication of that might be. Or make it a questioning piece--from an outsider's view, this is how it appears to me; am I right, and if so, is this how you want to be perceived, white liberals? Or make it a "ten behaviors white liberals should avoid if they want to be taken seriously". Or maybe even a deeper, thoughtful rumination on "barriers to meaningful dialogue on race".
Instead of any of those more-thoughtful options, we get a top-10 list with lots of cheerful dismissals and characterizations.
If it's anything more than a personal observation--and this spins wildly off of that, with all kinds of charming-yet-wrong youthful bravado (e.g., good thing you know more about being black than Toni Morrison does)--then you're as guilty of stereotyping as anyone you might label on either side of the racist divide.
As an intern, you're in the process of a learning experience--and I'm sure it's a terrific one at a place like AlterNet. Please take these thoughts in that context, from someone who's probably no more or less qualified to write about these matters than you are, yet also just egotistical enough to do so anyway.
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» TRUE! nm
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Oversimplified, overgeneralized--you can do better
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Oversimplified, overgeneralized--you can do better
Posted by: suprmark
» Exactly how I am supposed to "lay down my invisible backpack?"
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: Angry white males? The truth hurts!
Posted by: peacelf
» Yes, leftist Breast-beating required for "my" Original White Sin is driving me out of politics
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: And you called me a whiner? You gave up!
Posted by: peacelf
» RE: Oversimplified, overgeneralized--you can do better
Posted by: anonymous black writer
» having to constantly put up with these annoying encounters
Posted by: asilsfable
» RE: Oversimplified, overgeneralized--you can do better
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Oversimplified, overgeneralized--you can do better
Posted by: anonymous black writer
» RE: It's an article, not a book
Posted by: peacelf
Comments are closed-
Posted by: benzene on Dec 21, 2007 7:30 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I find it disturbing that "white is better" is the predominant paradigm of global beauty aesthetics. That darker people are considered to be less desirable mates because they lead to darker children who have a lower chance of success. That dark-skinned women resort to bleaching their skin to conform more closely to the "ideal white beauty". That hair must be chemically processed and straightened and tortured out of its natural state to be considered acceptable in the business world. Every skin tone can be beautiful, and I don't understand why lighter skin tones are universally considered more appealing.
2)
The other thing I find odd is, when talking to liberal friends, it comes up that they've never even considered dating people of another race. Reasons for this vary from "I've never really thought about it" to "I never really considered [race x] attractive". This shows that the xenophobic desire for racial homogeneity isn't limited to the conservative paradigm, it's simply more subtle in the liberal paradigm.
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» hoping for more out of this than oprah observations
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» What I Really Think
Posted by: benzene
» While these things are true to some extent...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: While these things are true to some extent...
Posted by: Jbuuty
» So what?
Posted by: jimidee
» Mulatto????!!!!!????You actually refer to your children as mulatto?
Posted by: asilsfable
» You must be corn-fused...
Posted by: jimidee
» Lies of omission
Posted by: asilsfable
» My definition came straight from a dictionary...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Beauty & Interracial-ness
Posted by: Lauren
» Hard-wired
Posted by: benzene
» from my post earlier
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» There are a lot of black folks who would never consider dating...
Posted by: jimidee
» Very Good Point
Posted by: Gravitas
» What does "sizes" have to do with anything we are talking about here?
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Beauty & Interracial-ness
Posted by: bookie
» RE: Excellent point, too.
Posted by: peacelf
» RE: Beauty & Interracial-ness
Posted by: hms2004
Comments are closed-
Posted by: timemachinist on Dec 21, 2007 7:51 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's no such thing as race so why are you even writing about it? To stir it up and divert our attention and categorizations of the world into fictitious racial identities? You only strengthen these things by writing about them, no matter what you write. And that's because they aren't the right categories for even defining our problems or identities.
The meaningful differences in people are cultural, not racial. Culture is rooted in a lot of things --history, geography, economics, etc-- but it certainly isn't rooted in skin color or any other superficial genotype. The contentious relations between tribal identities are rooted in economic competition, including territory where their culture (language, customs, cuisine, religion, etc) is dominant and pervasive. But the ideal of American society is supposed to be the melting pot of a great mix of the world's immigrants and cultures, not a fixing of identites around color or fictitious and meaningless "racial" lines.
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» True, women of all colors are delicious, but...
Posted by: jimidee
» We seem to have a culture gap here
Posted by: timemachinist
» Oh, I think you get it alright! nm
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Why care or talk about color or "race" at all?
Posted by: Lauren
» Dear Lauren,
Posted by: timemachinist
» mixed-race person here
Posted by: inverse_agonist
» You make me smile
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: Why care or talk about color or "race" at all?
Posted by: Skills83
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Turiye on Dec 21, 2007 8:01 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Many languages, religious beliefs in my family. Sick as hell of ALL generalizations, you as an Asian person, are you not aware of non-white, Asian, cultural cliques? WHY? Not racism, oh no, although marriages appear as Asian-Asian, Jewish-Jewish, Muslim-Muslim, African-American-African-American, White-White, Christian-Christian(not all white), Indian-Indian.
I see excuse after excuse, OH Woe Is Me, I marry whom I choose, Raise strong Educated, Tolerant Daughters, 18 and 30, truly could care less if you want to excuse all that is wrong by blaming an entire color of a population.
My Goodness, get on with your life and stop making excuses and blaming others, I have gone through alot, this too shall pass.
To lay blame, to make excuses for how and why keeps you stuck. Stay there or move on, Geez Louise it is almost 2008, enough.
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» RE: Yes, You are Asian Therefore what you say makes it so?
Posted by: Turiye
» RE: Yes, You are Asian Therefore what you say makes it so?
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: peacelf on Dec 21, 2007 8:07 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Critical theorist, Robert Terry, describes institutional power as: The White Male Club. The white male club is the institutionalization of white male supremacy and dominance in the world. Every institution in america has one purpose: that is to serve the wealthy white males who own and run the country.
Yet, by thinking of white patriarchal power as a Club, one can understand how access to wealth, status and power is attained, even if one is not white and male--just play by the club rules!
Playing by the club rules provides psychological and sometimes economic benefits. For example, if one wants to climb the corporate ladder and gain access to position and higher pay, one needs to play by the club rules by acting in ways that benefit the white male club and maintains their wealth and power.
The same goes for politicians. In the U.S. we have yet to elect a woman or person of color as president. The two Democratic candidates who are not white males must play by club rules in order to have access to the resources it takes to run a presidential campaign, otheriwse they would be marginalized by the white male owned media.
For example, if Obama were to suddenly speak out against, say, institutionalized racism in america, he would end up like Al Sharpton in 04: a source of entertainment and laughter for debate audiences rather than a serous candidate for president.
And, Hillary Clinton must demonstrate more testosterone-driven machismo on issues of foreign policy and the Iraq War than her male counterparts and serve corporate interests in order to be funded by White Male Club members. Indeed, her electability depends on it. She certainly has proven her worthiness for membership.
Of course, being a white male doesn't mean one has to play by club rules or accept the invitation, and Dennis Kucinich is a good example of that refusal to particpate or play by club rules. As a Congressman from Cleveland, his ability to be elected by Cleveland residents is testamony to his ability to "border cross."
I'm not talking about illegal immigration (however immigration is an issue that Kucinich has crossed borders on). Border crossing is the ability to transcend one's place and privilege, to see the plight of the "other." Kucinich has demonstrated this time and again with social policies that seek to achieve real equality for all citizens. His campaign is people-driven, not corporate funded, nor will he ever receive financing from white male club members as long as he challenges institutionalized white male supremacy.
Because of his refusing club membership, Kucinich is ignored by the corporate media or not taken seriously because admission to the media spotlight requires money, money that comes from the White Male Club. In fact, many of Kucinich's progressive allies will not vote for him because he refuses to play by club rules.
As an anti-racist, I recognized, as Alex Jung points out, that it is my responsibility to challenge the institutionalized power structure that perpetuates white male dominance. As a white male, I cannot be tempted by the psychological and economic benefits of white privilege and ignore my role in white supremacy, otherwise I am part of the problem. It is not white guilt that drives me, but a passionate longing for justice in an unjust world. Had I not listened to the voices of "others" as a student in college, I would not have been able to transcend my own white male privilege.
Peace
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» I am embarassed to share a candidate with this whiner
Posted by: timemachinist
» timemachinist
Posted by: bookie
» RE: Don't be embarrassed...
Posted by: peacelf
» RE: I am embarassed to share a candidate with this whiner
Posted by: johnshadows
» I disagree
Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: By necessity or choice?
Posted by: peacelf
» RE: By necessity or choice?
Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: aonghus, this spills over...
Posted by: peacelf
» RE: peacelf, then, it is no longer racial
Posted by: aonghus36
» RE: Institutional Racism and the White Male Club
Posted by: Lauren
» Yes, You are Right On!
Posted by: sofla100
» RE: Yes, You are Right On!
Posted by: aonghus36
» Best Comment
Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: Best Comment
Posted by: peacelf
» Ngugi wa Thiong'o
Posted by: Jbuuty
» So, what about the Black Club?
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Interesting how you...
Posted by: peacelf
» But, let's stick to politics.
Posted by: jimidee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: willymack on Dec 21, 2007 8:39 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: nough, already
Posted by: Lauren
» women are hard-wired to choose the best provider
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: nough, already
Posted by: taisamarie
» I have to agree with this...
Posted by: buffeliscious
» RE: nough, already
Posted by: aonghus36
Comments are closed-
Posted by: caru on Dec 21, 2007 8:54 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
PEACE AND SELF INQUIRY
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» RE: WE ARE ALL BLACK, but we are not all privileged
Posted by: peacelf
» You are really a piece of work!
Posted by: asilsfable
» RE: Where do you get this stuff that I "said"?
Posted by: jimidee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Gravitas on Dec 21, 2007 9:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: White Privilege is a Harder and Harder Sell
Posted by: Lauren
» privilege is a relative and distracting term
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: privilege is a relative and distracting term
Posted by: Gravitas
» Scientific Statistics Bear Out the Truth
Posted by: sofla100
» It really is about an economic divide. Nm
Posted by: jimidee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Suzon on Dec 21, 2007 9:24 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thirty or forty years ago there was an excellent book called Black Like Me in which a white man medicinally darkened his skin and literally did walk in the shoes of a man of color. What was it like to be black? The author's description of it from a white perspective really was effective in reaching white people.
In studying the most powerful cliques within the City of London, I noted that women and people of color were few but seemed to be proudly displayed. It may mean that the dominant white males are genuinely less racist: willing to accept non-white and non-male colleagues. Or that they are simply adapting to the demands of the times while keeping the levers of power firmly in hand. A bit of both probably.
In my lifetime genuine progress has been made socially and should be celebrated by everyone. But the underlying economic realities have gone from bad to worse.
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» the trends
Posted by: timemachinist
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Frank J. on Dec 21, 2007 9:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. I'm white and male
2. Grew up in a small farming community during the worst of the agricultural crisis.
3. Still farming and working as an organizer on rural issues.
Based upon this, and wearing my organizer hat, I started wondering what the "handles" are on this issue for me. Also realizing that most people take action out of self interest first, it's important that these actions help me and people like me as well as others.
1. Improve the Farm Service Agency's policies and attitudes toward minority farmers. The US Department of Agriculture has a horrible record with minority farmers. They have higher foreclosure rates and lower amounts of loans and services to minority farmers. This is a constant battle in the farm bill. Check out the Farmers Legal Action Group website for more information www.flaginc.org. On the self interest side, I believe helping small minority farmers will improve the USDA's service to all family farmers including white ones like me.
2. Promote wind development on Indian Reservations. Some of our poorest areas in this country are Indian Reservations in North and South Dakota. Through history they've been whittle down to areas of the states that have little or no natural resources, accept for the wind. Now that resources is worth something and we should be working to improve the amount of native wind energy on our national electricity grid. Check out my friends at intertribal COUP for more information http://www.intertribalcoup.org/. Once again, I own windy land and helping my Indian neighbors will, I believe, help me.
Now I know these are two very small examples of putting "handles" on this issue and I know they are from a very rural perspective, but I believe we need to start talking about solutions instead of continually exploring the problems.
I can't comment on a lot of this. I don't listen to Chupak although Ann Peebles and the Stax collection move my white soul.
With that, I wish you all Peace in the New Year.
Frank
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» RE: where do regular folks fit in?
Posted by: asante sana
» RE: where do regular folks fit in?
Posted by: Frank J.
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Everitt on Dec 21, 2007 10:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your example of Asian women marrying white men - I'd be interested in finding out how many are married to Latin, South Asian or men of African descent. Just as there is an emasculating stigma on Asian men, so to is there a stigma of a different kind for men of these other ethnic groups that Asian women respond to. And lets not forget the white man's alpha male position in American society. How does that inform Asian women's choices in choosing their mates?
Racism is just an enhanced form of tribalism, a genetic mechanism of which we are all victims. Yes, because of their position of power within the society white racism can have a far more harmful effect on other ethnic groups, but many of the things (many not all) you are critiquing white liberals for are so intrinsically human and personal it seems almost petty.
As I've gotten older I've come to accept that a certain level of racism will always exist (but I'm in no way in the camp with the regular racism deniers on supposedly liberal sites like these). All I can fight for is social, economic and political justice, other than that, live and let die.
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» RE: What about minority on minority?
Posted by: taisamarie
» Data for you
Posted by: benzene
» RE: In U.S. only whites can be racist
Posted by: peacelf
» Define "institutional"
Posted by: Everitt
» RE: Define "institutional" OKAY, I Will
Posted by: peacelf
» Nonetheless, the definition of racism...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: Define "institutional" OKAY, I Will
Posted by: aonghus36
» As I'm sure YOU know...
Posted by: mjabele
» Racism will end only when people give up the idea of race
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: Webster and Oxford are....White males?
Posted by: peacelf
» anybody can be a 'racist'
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Racism and power
Posted by: peacelf
» RE: acism and power
Posted by: jimidee
» BINGO! nm
Posted by: jimidee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: meesajean on Dec 21, 2007 10:23 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is an ideology that people are conscious of, but its still happening isn't it? They're still doing it...we're still doing it- the moment we are aware of our own oppressive ideologies, we continue to act them out- just with more cynicism. And I think that includes everyone- not just white liberals; however white liberals enacting out these ideologies reinforces power.
Its not that I don't think people can't change their reinforcements of power structure- I just think that this article is something that people are already aware of- this author didn't just reveal a huge secret to white liberals across the U.S. thats going to shatter their worldview.
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» RE: Outdated article
Posted by: taisamarie
» RE: Outdated article
Posted by: Luther Blissett
» Not a social problem?
Posted by: jimidee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: nfamous on Dec 21, 2007 10:28 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This all stems from white people's fear of being genetically annihilated. White birthrates are dropping all over the planet and nonwhite birthrates are up. Less than one in ten people on the planet are white but whites still think they are superior because they created a lot of technology, (not all of it by any estimation).
Whites did what they had to do to survive as they evolved in colder climates. They lost their pigmentation from climate and diet change as they traveled north out of what is now Africa. They have been angry and resentful at blacks ever since. They know that blackness is a dominant gene and the only way to create another white person is for a white man and woman to conceive. The problem is white people also love money. To make money they need nonwhites around, but when nonwhites are around, whites invariably have babies with them which creates more nonwhites and less whites. White people collectively don't care about race purity anymore. They want to make and spend money, not raise families.
It's a bitter irony for them I'm sure but I've always said America is a failed experiment. Slaves should've been paid reparations and allowed to establish their own nation within these United States. That way the races could've remained separate but whites like having black people around to demonize, scapegoat and entertain them. If we left them whites would be crushed and then what would they do with all those prisons? What goes around comes around and with the Latino population soaring we will probably see the last visibly white person in a a few hundred years, if that long.
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» tired rhetoric-
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» I don't mind having more dark girls! I love them!
Posted by: timemachinist
» Let me get this right
Posted by: benzene
» Your separatist's attitiudes would have made...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: White Supremacy will be around as long as western slave systems in the New World.
Posted by: yellow
» I thought that only white people can be racist.....(peacelf?)
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: I thought that only white people can be racist.....(peacelf?)
Posted by: peacelf
» RE: White Supremacy will be around as long as whites are
Posted by: MobileSucks
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pacto on Dec 21, 2007 10:39 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: strange...
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Posted by: arod95 on Dec 21, 2007 11:05 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm tired of people trying to deemphasize certain issues because other ones exist. Yes poverty is a problem, yes racism is a problem, but they are not problems that can be generalized so easily. Because I was poor and black the racism I experienced was a slightly different flavor than the type a rich black person would face.
The liberal white racism wasn't so much of an issue because a lot of the racism I experienced was less nuanced and in some instances more institutional. Would I say that I faced worse racism? No, just like I wouldn't say that my poverty was any more harsh than a white person's. But they are certainly different. I think we need to stop simplifying these issues.
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» Why don't I feel guilty?
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: Why don't I feel guilty?
Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: Why don't I feel guilty?
Posted by: Luther Blissett
» RE: Why don't I feel guilty?
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Why don't I feel guilty?
Posted by: jimidee
» Speaking of Oversimplifying the issues....
Posted by: Gravitas
» So, what do you suggest specifically to do about it?
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: No issue can effectively envelope or remove another
Posted by: Camilla Cracchiolo
» out of nowhere
Posted by: YogiBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: taisamarie on Dec 21, 2007 11:17 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Two years ago I spent three days with my husband, visiting his family in south-eastern Texas. I swear if I heard the "I'm not racist, but..." followed by a blatantly racist remark such as (and yes, I heard this one!) "I'm not racists, but we never let our kids use the public pool cause the black kids just don't wash enough and they make the pool dirty"...
I wanted to slap more than one person on the trip. If you have to preface a comment with that line, you're probably about to say something racist.
(I'm not trying to pick on the region, just making a statement of where I was when it happened because up until that time I had never heard anyone use that phrase)
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» Excuse me, but we are talking about racism in America, and...
Posted by: jimidee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: defrag on Dec 21, 2007 12:09 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
OMG this is gonna bug me all day. How "derogatory" could it have been, exactly? Does she maybe mean dismissive rather than derogatory? Can anyone guess what he said?
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» RE: Is anybody else curious what "Sam" said?
Posted by: Jbuuty
Comments are closed-
Posted by: audiodef on Dec 21, 2007 12:21 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are a couple of points in this article that I think are a bit of a stretch (something about Obama being too laid-back being a racial statement, for example), but other than that, this is a good read for whites seeking to understand the world around us and looking for enlightenment.
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» RE: Good read for whites
Posted by: no1kstate
» Shove it up your racist ass
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: Shove it up your racist ass
Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: Shove it up your racist ass
Posted by: Jbuuty
» So we "humanize" each other by acknowledging a ficticious racial hierarchy?
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: So we "humanize" each other by acknowledging a ficticious racial hierarchy?
Posted by: no1kstate
» The questions you answer for yourself are wrong.
Posted by: jimidee
» misappropriation
Posted by: no1kstate
» Who died and made you king?
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Who died and made you king?
Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: Who died and made you king?
Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: Who died and made you king?
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Who died and made you king?
Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: Who died and made you king?
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Who died and made you king?
Posted by: no1kstate
» RE: Shove it up your racist ass
Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: Shove it up your racist ass
Posted by: no1kstate
» Shove it up your race-baiting ass
Posted by: timemachinist
» "The differences in people are cultural"...
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Shove it up your troll ass
Posted by: YogiBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: 060730 on Dec 21, 2007 1:00 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, but that's not all they showed me -- i also learned a new mantra -- lack of opportunity does not imply virtue -- and discovered first hand how vicious people of any color could be to someone of another color.
it's systemic -- some of the most self-effacing revolutionaries i know spout power to the people out of one side of their mouths and out of the other make excuses why their position as the vanguard makes it necessary for them to be above accountability toward those very same people. Do they always use this lack of accountability correctly? what do you think? will they admit that? what do you think?
nobody is immune from mean people who don't like them because of what they 'might' do. people create contexts where they don't have to be subject to the (perceived?) instability of other people. it's hard for anyone who has acquired that kind of insulation (or it could be called privilege) to disabuse themselves of all negative behavior linked to that privilege.
and it seems to be common for all races to have their own trophies -- their black friends and their white friends, their latina or asian girlfriends ... it's facts.
some people fancy they are above it. some people may really be immune to such things. for me, that much exposure just made me less overly-cautious. sometimes i do the right thing. sometimes i avoid dealing with people i assume will treat me a certain way.
i have no clue how to change this.
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» RE: How much do we want to know?
Posted by: jefhadist
» "...discovered first hand how vicious people of any color could be to someone of another color."
Posted by: jimidee
Comments are closed-
Posted by: yellow on Dec 21, 2007 1:07 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: MLMrev on Dec 21, 2007 1:21 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Check it out: ATTENTION WHITE PEOPLE: WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM!"
Bob Avakian has also spoken to this issue at length in some of his powerful speeches available online. I highly suggest people check it out...if you wanna move towards a better world!
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» RE: Interesting links or are they?
Posted by: yellow
» BITCHING AND BLAMEMONGERING!
Posted by: asilsfable
» RE: BITCHING AND BLAMEMONGERING! And nasty too!!
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: benzene on Dec 21, 2007 1:53 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is sick that young black women are initiated into adulthood by their first hair relaxer, by their first step towards lifelong conformity. It is sick that their natural hair isn't accepted and is viewed as a stigma. And it is sick that white culture views this as acceptable, because "nappy hair is ugly anyway".
It is sick that interracial couples are automatically subject to racist assumptions. If it is a white woman with a black man, the assumption is that she is an insatiable adulteress or that he is a scumbag thug. If it is a black woman with a white man, the assumption is that she is a gold-digging slut or that he just has "jungle fever". It is sick that interracial relationships are viewed in a political context of rebellion rather than their true context of mutual love.
It is sick that interracial kids are subject to taunting from both sides. Black kids think they're too white. White kids think they're too black. And while adults may rave about "how cute" interracial children all are, that very attitude marginalizes the children themselves.
Finally, it is sick that white culture is so smug and complicit in the assumption that everything is hunky-dory. "We gave those folk the right to vote and we criminalized discrimination, what more do they want? Racism is over!" The unwillingness of white people to recognize their moral complicity in racial injustice is in itself toxic. And if the Watts riots et al weren't enough to change that attitude, I don't know what will.
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Posted by: aprileileen on Dec 21, 2007 2:09 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Good Article
Posted by: jefhadist
» RE: Good Article
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: MargoM on Dec 21, 2007 3:36 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm white and not Latina. I'm also heterosexual, female, semi-disabled (I have a disability that social security sometimes classifies as disabled depending on the severity of the condition) and middle-aged (so experience some ageism).
All that being said, it wasn't until I lived for a year in South Korea that I really got upset/angry about some experiences of prejudice. I can't say that I exactly understand all instances of prejudice, but I think it sensitized me to it a bit more.
South Korea is about 98.5% Korean, 1% Chinese and .5% Other, so it's pretty homogeneous as far as race is concerned. However, the culture there is pretty hierarchical, something like this: Men at the top, then women, then children, then most foreigners (some foreigners fit elsewhere in the schema, such as powerful foreign men). Also, I asked about this and was told that Koreans think that blondes (I am blonde) are "sexy". Despite dressing way more conservatively in Seoul than I do here in Miami, and also being twice as old as some of the other foreign English teachers, I was molested twice on the subway and had other problems with men there. Age was also an issue there and I had women students who were maybe 5-10 years older than me who emphasized their age to make sure I understood that I was to respect them as my elder (5 years when you're in your 40's is hardly significant in my American opinion).
There are Koreans who hate this system, and I was involved there with an anarchist group that was very nice and egalitarian.
After the year I spent in Seoul, I really began to wonder what it is like to be in a minority and how people want to be treated.
One thing that I felt for myself, was that I wanted to be taken seriously as a person (not as a white, or a female, or a foreigner, or....). I imagine that everyone would like that, to be taken seriously as a person. How to do that, though, might vary from culture to culture. Maybe this is respect that I'm talking about. Who doesn't want to be respected?
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Posted by: Joe on Dec 21, 2007 5:05 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another thing i can guarantee is most liberals on this site live in conservative/non-liberal neighborhoods; not in the liberal destruction they advocate for everyone else to their demise (ie african americans). liberals are just a group of big mouth hypocrites filled with guilt and instead of fixing problems themselves they rather the government do it so they wont have to get their hands dirty.
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» RE: finally some truth...here's more
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: Morgaine Swann on Dec 21, 2007 5:37 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Second, we need to get to the source of all this inequality and that source is supported by most members of every race in this country, and that is the Asian patriarchal value system known as Christianity. (I should include all of the Yawist groups, but the others - Islam, Judaism and Mormonism - are singled out for discrimination by Christians, too.) It is continually used, correctly or not, to justify racism, sexism, nationalism, Euro-centrism, capitalism, elitism, gay bashing, destruction of indigenous cultures and oppression of any other element of society not approved by the almost exclusively white male clergy of both the Protestant and Catholic faiths.
It's the single greatest barrier to social justice. It's why so many African Americans won't throw their support behind the gay rights movement. It's why so many men can refer to the mutilation and honor killings of women as "cultural" and feel justified in paying women in their offices 76 cents for every dollar they pay a man. It's why Native American children were shipped off to schools run by the church and punished for speaking their tribal languages. It's why there's a societal preference for nuclear families - a relatively new element of society and not a very successful one - rather than blended, adoptive, gay or matriarchal families. It's why Republicans think anyone who is poor is immoral or otherwise lacking and therefore not deserving of help or empathy. It's what enables them to think of welfare as an "entitlement program" instead of the basic decency of making sure the poorest segment of society is not left to the wolves while the elites revel in unimaginable wealth built on the backs of the poor. It's what makes the red-neck with the Confederate flag in his truck feel like a good person even if he uses the "n" word with every other breath. It's what makes mothers proud to offer up their children's lives in service of Halliburton's bottom line. Think about it before you reject what I'm saying. Have you ever stepped back and looked at how our culture evolved as it did? What was the one constant, driving force?
We need to get real about the source of the hate, and we need to root it out at the source. As long as this culture pours its collective energy into a value system that was out-dated 2000 years ago, we're going to be stuck right where we are.
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» RE: First, let me thank you
Posted by: no1kstate
» Christianity + Philosophy = Western Hegemony
Posted by: eriktrips
» RE: Christianity + Philosophy = Western Hegemony
Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Constantinian Christians
Posted by: peacelf
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Posted by: sofla100 on Dec 21, 2007 8:23 PM
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» RE: The Distribution of Income in America is Heavily Skewed Against Blacks, Why?
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: chlamor on Dec 21, 2007 8:51 PM
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Individual acts can palliate but cannot end, these problems.
To redesign social systems we need first to acknowledge their colossal unseen dimensions. The silences and denials surrounding privilege are the key political surrounding privilege are the key political tool here. They keep the thinking about equality or equity incomplete, protecting unearned advantage and conferred dominance by making these subject taboo. Most talk by whites about equal opportunity seems to me now to be about equal opportunity to try to get into a position of dominance while denying that systems of dominance exist.
It seems to me that obliviousness about white advantage, like obliviousness about male advantage, is kept strongly acculturated in the United States so as to maintain the myth of meritocracy, the myth that democratic choice is equally available to all. Keeping most people unaware that freedom of confident action is there for just a small number of people props up those in power and serves to keep power in the hands of the same groups that have most of it already.
One of the most important things that we all have to come to grips with is that RACISM KILLS (as do sexism and homophobia, and all the other oppressions.) If NOLA didn't show the world that for once and for all, it showed us nothing.
So many people don't seem to understand what racism even is. "Are you saying ________ is racist?" "Oh, no, I'd never say THAT." BULLSHIT. Of course ________ is racist. And so is everyone else who can't see that it was the racism (and classism) killing NOLA residents more even than the flood, or who shies away from charging most of our leaders and our whole government, the entire system is racist to the core.
It's as if they think racism (or any of the other oppressions) is necessarily a CONSCIOUS construct: "I really don't like black people -- I think they're inferior, so let's not fund the levees and then someday they may die."
No, perhaps the worst, but certainly the most intransigent aspect of racism is the part(s) based on SUBconscious or even UNconscious beliefs that there are people who simply don't count as much, for whatever reason. But the funny thing is, those people tend overwhelmingly to fall into the oppressed groups. "Oh, it's only black folk (so who cares?)," or "Oh, it's only poor folk (who are lazy and therefore deserve what they get) and old people (past their prime and useless) anyway."
The US is a nation born of genocide, suckled on slavery, and weaned on apartheid, and the weaning process has been largely confined to a bottle at board meetings.
And as someone else mentioned, maybe here, maybe elsewhere, the sin, in the eyes of the white and affluent, is not the racism itself, but being reminded of it.
To be fair, it is so deeply ingrained that most do not even realize it, and their indignation is quite sincere when they insist that they are not a bit racist, some of their best friends are black, and they (or their parents) even marched in Selma.
Deep In The Heart Of Nowhere
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Posted by: Racumin on Dec 21, 2007 8:52 PM
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In San Francisco segregation is so bad. I've heard people say it's worse than before the 60's. The city tried in vain to bus the kids around the city to reintegrate. A stupid political maneuver. They'll never try to fix the cause. Gentrification and discriminatory real estate practices. It's so sad. This is supposed to be the liberal city. Bullshit.
It's interesting how racism is different in the U.S. from other countries. Here in Latin America there is a lot of racism, but "white" guilt is non-existent. The good thing about that is that you don't see the aggression. This is probably because there was more mixing here. People of different races can live next to each other and respect each other. The only time I hear an overtly racist remark is from the wealthy, which is a minority.
There is still racism and white privilege here. I think there is more hope here though, because people are willing to talk about it in a positive manner. The liberals here are far from feeling guilty, mainly because of a bigger class problem and Uncle Sam messing with us so much.
The level of hostility here, as seen in this forum, does not occur in Latin America, when discussing racism. I live in a nicer country though, but I suspect other Latin American countries are similar. I don't know. It feels like people are more respectful here.
I also notice people like to compare the sizes of their brain-cocks. They attack each other's grammar and insignificant errors. why?
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» RE: great article
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: c.elegans on Dec 21, 2007 9:27 PM
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but i'm glad to see that you raised questions and offered probable factors that have led to this.
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» RE: loved this article
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: nonamegal on Dec 21, 2007 9:28 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i make it clear to these friends that i wouldn't want to have anything to do with a man interested in me solely because of some notion they have of the servitude or exoticism of asian women (they'd be sorely disappointed, anyway-- i'm a big-boned, beer-drinking midwestern girl who don't take no shit). but i'm sick and tired of hearing about how i should use my race and racism to my alleged advantage. stereotypes about my race aren't assets to me under any circumstance.
margaret cho said it best: "the only reason i would walk on your back is if there were something on the other side of you that i wanted."
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» just wondering?
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
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Posted by: lwbaby on Dec 21, 2007 9:40 PM
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So what if white males are the ruling class here in the US. It is no different than any rulng class in any other country or culture.
Here's one for ya. I have no Black friends. None. Do you know why? because, as this article stated so succinctly, we have to watch what we say, even if we offend by accident.
Life is to short to have to worry about such crap.
Soo, I'll continue to be friends with people I am familiar with and whose sensibilities are well documented in my mind and I'm not apt to offend accidentally.
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» RE: White privilege is what it is. m.
Posted by: anonymous black writer
» RE: White privilege is what it is. m.
Posted by: YogiBear
» LOL that you assume I'm a him. m.
Posted by: lwbaby
» RE: LOL that you assume I'm a him. m.
Posted by: YogiBear
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Posted by: Camilla Cracchiolo on Dec 21, 2007 10:24 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Take the right to walk down the street without harrassment. Or to have proper police protection. ("Having the complexion for the protection" as they say.) This isn't a privilege, it's a fundamental human right. The problem isn't that the white person gets these things but that the person of color doesn't. Or the right to be judged by your accomplishments rather than skin color, or to have decent schools, health care and housing. I want a world where everyone gets this stuff.
Privilege to me is more something like having a second house when most can't even afford a first one. Or being rich when when so many have no home at all.
Calling human rights "privilege" sounds like something parents give little kids. "TV privileges, phone privileges". We shouldn't be in the position of kids whose ruling class parents can dispense and withhold these things if we are good. Granted, human rights get treated that way, but we shouldn't put up with it.
Plus, most white people are busting their asses and holding on by their fingernails. Naturally they have a bad reaction to being called privileged in such a situation; but I think they are much more sympathetic when the issue is put as one of the denial of fundamental human rights. It shows that you're not trying to take away the little they have but to make things better for everyone.
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» Thank You, Very True!
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: Thank You, Very True!
Posted by: Camilla Cracchiolo
» I'm Glad That You Pointed Out the Harm that Racism Does to Whites
Posted by: Kym525
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Posted by: InsertNameHere on Dec 21, 2007 11:36 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If I had any black friends, would I feel weird about watching it with them, or doing our impressions of it when discussing it, with its gratuitous use of 'the word that must not be used by whites'.
Maybe I should just say fuck it and come out and say 'That shit was funny as fuck nigga!' and maybe we can get past this already.
I may be white, but I don't have it that easy. There's plenty of folks who don't want me at their party, they're called the ultra-rich, and they aren't all white. They don't give a shit if you're black, yellow or plaid, if your poor, you're dead to them.
I think racial divides are convenient to keep people distracted from the common class struggle. A working class united is dangerous as hell, and they know it.
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» There's racism even within class divides
Posted by: asilsfable
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Posted by: lefty010 on Dec 22, 2007 7:32 AM
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I'm so glad that you referenced Peggy MacIntosh's essay. I vaguely referenced this essay in other posts made earlier this week. I wonder if Alternet could run a copy of the essay?
I think your observations are spot on and the negative responses you have gotten may be based in the idea that if unearned white privilege is acknowledged, then something must be done about it. That would mean that people who have power might have to give some up and we all know that people just don't give up power.
Thank you for your courageous article.
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» RE: Bravo
Posted by: SusanBee
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Posted by: A. Servant on Dec 22, 2007 10:26 AM
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The reality is that most of us are being kept as slaves in a matrix of control; and we are acting in ways that maintain this system of slavery. And as slaves, we are being dominated, sickened, and imprisoned or threatened with imprisonment if we were to be "bad"; when our usefulness is over, we will be left to die or be killed. The lack of caring that we experience and too often fail to offer to others is not accidental--our indoctrination has been intentionally planned and executed by the modern slave masters.
Is there something we can do to ensure humane treatment for ourselves and our neighbors? If you're tired of being enslaved and seeing others threatened with increasing bondage, join us in Slaves Anonymous to start making grassroots changes that will improve the security of you and your family. You and your neighbors have the autonomy, creativity, diversity, passion and transcendence to become self-owners and create the conditions necessary for emancipation of your local community from the global tyranny of slavery or serfdom or corporatism or government or fascism or empire or debt-based money or psychopathy or whatever-you-want-to-call-it.
Let's work together: You stop it in your community; I'll stop it in mine.
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