COMMENTS: 201
It's Time to Legalize Drugs
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Posted by: vox persona on Dec 20, 2007 12:07 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
Posted by: somegirl
» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
Posted by: rocketman
» Now it becomes clear
Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» You see, I notice a pattern here in the South
Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» RE: You see, I notice a pattern here in the South
Posted by: rocketman
» I was paying attention rocketman...
Posted by: Centavo
» RE: I was paying attention rocketman...
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: You see, I notice a pattern here in the South
Posted by: magus65
» RE: You see, I notice a pattern here in the South
Posted by: peacefullaim
» Oh? I'm a liberal now?
Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» RE: You see, I notice a pattern here in the South
Posted by: nikolai
» RE: You see, I notice a pattern here in the South
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: You see, I notice a pattern here in the South
Posted by: aussidawg
» RE: You see, I notice a pattern here in the South
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: Now it becomes clear
Posted by: jroth420
» RE: Now it becomes clear
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
Posted by: peacefullaim
» BTW who pays for the prisons
Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» RE: BTW who pays for the prisons
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: BTW who pays for the prisons
Posted by: newtype_alpha
» RE: BTW who pays for the prisons
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: BTW who pays for the prisons
Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» RE: BTW who pays for the prisons
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: BTW who pays for the prisons
Posted by: jroth420
» RE: BTW who pays for the prisons
Posted by: picket
» RE: BTW who pays for the prisons
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
Posted by: newtype_alpha
» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
Posted by: rocketman
» true fascist
Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
Posted by: 2dogarage
» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
Posted by: jroth420
» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
Posted by: Lauren
» Please, don't flatter this moron
Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» and why exactly, do they need to rob someone
Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» RE: and why exactly, do they need to rob someone
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
Posted by: jmooney
» You are obviously
Posted by: 2dogarage
» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Or,Life, liberty - The drug war IS centered on POT
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
Posted by: davesilvan
» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
Posted by: TheLimit
» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
Posted by: peacefullaim
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Dec 20, 2007 12:48 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Alcohol use is kept in people's homes and in bars - there are laws against public consumption of alcohol, laws against minors in possession of alcohol, and laws that prohibit adults from buying for minors. Despite all this regulation, alcohol is for sale everywhere in the U.S. It's also heavily marketed to teenagers and adults.
Make no mistake - excessive alcohol use is the #3 killer in the United States, behind tobacco. Still, no one is suggesting going back to Prohibition days.
(The leading causes of death in 2000 were tobacco (435,000 deaths; 18.1% of total US deaths), poor diet and physical inactivity (400,000 deaths; 16.6%), and alcohol consumption (85,000 deaths; 3.5%). Other actual causes of death were microbial agents (75,000), toxic agents (55,000), motor vehicle crashes (43,000), incidents involving firearms (29,000), sexual behaviors (20,000), and illicit use of drugs (17,000)).
A sane drug policy would apply equally to alcohol, tobacco, cannabis, opium, cocaine and to other drugs. Recreational drugs could be made legal, sold to people at licensed locations (just as alcohol and tobacco are today), and the taxes would go to state and local governments. Laws banning drug use by minors, illicit traffic, and so could be implemented.
Today, around half of all newly sentenced prisoners are drug offenders (In 1970, it was 16%). Of the 2.2 million people in U.S. prisons, perhaps a quarter are there on non-violent drug charges. Since it costs as much as $50,000 a year to hold and feed a prisoner, releasing all those people (around half a million people) would save the government about $25 billion dollars a year!
What's with all the drug convictions? See: Bay Area counties toughest on black drug offenders, Dec 2007, SFC
Half of all drug offenders in prison are black, even though blacks make up about 13% of the population, and drug use rates between all racial groups are similar. Furthermore, the penalties are often selectively applied by prosecutors - rich white kids from the suburbs who get caught with a few grams of powder cocaine are treated quite differently than black kids from the ghetto with a few grams of crack cocaine.
All in all, the "Drug War" isn't about stopping drug use - it's about entrenched government agencies like the DEA, who want to stay in business, and private prison contractors, who want to keep their cells full, established drug dealers in the pharmaceutical, alcohol and tobacco corporations who don't want any competition, and, last but not least, puritanically-minded social maniacs who can't stand the idea of people enjoying themselves, whether it be booze, pot or sex that's involved.
This goes all the way back to Harry J. Anslinger, the first anti-drug crusader in the U.S. government, who stated before Congress in 1937 that
"There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos, and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz, and swing, result from marijuana use. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers, and any others."
"...the primary reason to outlaw marijuana is its effect on the degenerate races."
"Marijuana is the most violence-causing drug in the history of mankind."
Straight from the mouth of the founding father of the DEA. . .
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» RE: Legalize, tax and regulate - just like with alcohol and tobacco
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: Legalize, tax and regulate - just like with alcohol and tobacco
Posted by: drmflorida
» RE: Legalize, tax and regulate - just like with alcohol and tobacco
Posted by: aussidawg
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Posted by: El Hombre Malo on Dec 20, 2007 2:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So there is not really a War to erase drugs from our societies, but to keep them in the fringes, to keep them unregulated and illegal so there are consecuences. Legal ones and health related ones, because with prohibition the manufacture of these drugs fall in the hands of people who wont hesitate to mix the product with whatever will give them a better profit. Ive heard of bricks turned to dust to be mixed with heroin injectable doses... Truth is the most dangerous drug healthwise, heroin, can be compatible with a long productive life when medical heroin is avaliable, like that of many cronic disease patients.
But for some people to push their model of society down our troaths, we need to see people suffer, be ill and in jail for not following the rules. And if that people also make a buck while fear-mongerin, all the better. Run down addicts on the street work as cautionary tale not only against drugs but against any kind of rebelious impulse.
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» michael moore .."the war is not meant to be won...it is meant to be continuous"...
Posted by: Annapurna1
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Posted by: Jeff.Friend on Dec 20, 2007 4:34 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: "putting others at risk" is the rub.
Posted by: El Hombre Malo
» RE: "putting others at risk" is the rub.
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» Red Herring: "Do you want a stoned surgeon?"
Posted by: timemachinist
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Posted by: suegei on Dec 20, 2007 4:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
if there were little profit in drugs...
...dealers wouldn't be hanging around outside schools giving away free samples to build a future customer base
...addicts could be treated as patients rather than criminals, so that their drug habit could be either eliminated or brought under control
...if the cost of drugs was, say, 10% of what it is now, in order to support his habit a hard-core criminal addicted to drug use would only have to knock over the head and rob 10% of the little old ladies [like me] who are just trying to get home with their social security check
...law enforcement and incarceration cost tax dollars. if drug use is not a crime, then what ...40%? more?...of the dollars we spend on our failing War on Drugs could be devoted to something more potentially rewarding. a War on Illiteracy. a War on Unemployment. a War on our Tragic Dependence on Fossil Fuel. a War on our Deteriorating National Infrastructure. We can still have the Wars we seem to be so fond of, people. we can even win some if we choose our opponents more wisely.
after all, if I'm completely wrong and legalization won't improve the situation, we can always declare a NEW War on Drugs and go back to the excellent system we have today, which is producing such grand results.
finally, please, PLEASE don't tell me I'm 'soft on drugs'. I have five kids born between 1956 and 1964; I have seen up close and personal the damage drugs can do to a life. if it would do any good, I would cheerfully advocate roasting drug dealers over a slow fire on a sharp stick. unfortunately, as long as the enormous profits are available, there are always gonna be more drug dealers than sharp sticks.
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Posted by: DigitalAztec on Dec 20, 2007 4:50 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Minorities and the poor would be affected the most - in the worst way - if narcotics were legalized.
Despair and the lack of education would not go good with addiction.
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» Wrong - alcohol, cocaine, tobacco and heroin addiction are very similar
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: Medical Maintenance
Posted by: TheLimit
» You misconstrue my statement....(Purposefully?)
Posted by: vox persona
» Alcohol is as dangerous as meth or heroin
Posted by: timemachinist
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Posted by: PJT on Dec 20, 2007 4:51 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I don't think so
Posted by: suegei
» RE: I don't think so
Posted by: somegirl
» Also a multi-billion dollar industry of "substance abuse counselors"
Posted by: defrag
» RE: Also a multi-billion dollar industry of "substance abuse counselors"
Posted by: jsheeler
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Posted by: DigitalAztec on Dec 20, 2007 4:55 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Buy Stock
Posted by: somegirl
» RE: Buy Stock
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: Prairie Fire on Dec 20, 2007 5:06 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Analysis disappointing
Posted by: somegirl
» RE: Analysis disappointing
Posted by: TheLimit
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Posted by: in ohio on Dec 20, 2007 5:13 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Attorney
Posted by: El Hombre Malo
» RE: Attorney
Posted by: TheLimit
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Posted by: DigitalAztec on Dec 20, 2007 5:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The CIA
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: willymack on Dec 20, 2007 5:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: If for no other reason
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: Purple Cheese on Dec 20, 2007 5:27 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Historian David T. Courtwright explains The Controlled Substances Act: how a “big tent” reform became a punitive drug law.
Here's a summary:
The 1970 Controlled Substances Act was part of an omnibus reform package designed to rationalize, and in some respects to liberalize, American drug policy. While the legislation provided additional resources for law enforcement and a systematic means for regulating the use of most psychoactive drugs, it also did away with mandatory minimum sentences and provided more support for treatment and research. Over the next three decades, and in response to public alarm about drug abuse, the US Congress continuously amended the law to produce a more punitive system of drug control. The amendments, which gave the Drug Enforcement Administration greater control over scheduling and maintenance and which substantially increased penalties for illicit trafficking, transformed the law into the legal foundation of America’s “drug war,” as the stricter criminal approach came to be known. By the 1980s, the flexibility and innovative spirit of the original Controlled Substances Act (and that of Nixon-era drug strategy generally) had largely disappeared from American drug policy.
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Posted by: just john on Dec 20, 2007 5:47 AM
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(Just a minor semantic point.)
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» RE: ... and "illicit cultivation" would be wiped out ...
Posted by: 2dogarage
» RE: ... and "illicit cultivation" would be wiped out ...
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: maxpayne on Dec 20, 2007 5:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Thanks Max!
Posted by: garry minor
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Posted by: colinmeister on Dec 20, 2007 5:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The old legend of drug "Pushers" is just plain false. Why would selling illegal drugs require any real salesmanship skills, including provision of free samples, when there is a large market among people who are actively seeking to buy the product? New users are not introduced to drugs by unscrupulous dealers, they are introduced to them by their friends, usually occasional casual users.
Dealer vilification is a creation of governments who cannot stand the fact that someone is making money without paying any income tax on it. Pointing out that it is a tax issue might create some sympathy for drug dealers, so the government started the urban legend that dealers are the cause of the drug problem.
Legalisation is the answer - some people will take drugs whether they are legal or not, and others will choose not to take drugs.
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» RE: Dealers
Posted by: newtype_alpha
» RE: Dealers
Posted by: Lauren
» I am a career drug dealer
Posted by: timemachinist
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Posted by: lamar on Dec 20, 2007 6:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Why not?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Why not?
Posted by: bcgirl125
» RE: Why not?
Posted by: lamar
» RE: Why not?
Posted by: lamar
» RE: He who cannot be named
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: He who cannot be named
Posted by: lamar
» RE: He who cannot be named
Posted by: drmflorida
» RE: He who cannot be named
Posted by: lamar
» His Name is Kucinich, Paul, Gravel....
Posted by: timemachinist
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Posted by: skingk on Dec 20, 2007 6:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php
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Posted by: drricklippin on Dec 20, 2007 6:24 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The persistance of people like Nadelmann is a real source of hope and inspiration.
He is correct on almost all his conclusions which are based on lifelong scholarship in this area built on a foundation of human health values
(I can't resist adding the harm done in ths "war" by Big PhRMA)
Let us get behind him NOW. His day has arrived.
Dr. Rick Lippin
http://medicalcrises.blogspot.com
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Posted by: somegirl on Dec 20, 2007 6:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Like the war on terra, it's based on inflaming people's passions with disinformation, leading to massive corruption due to greed in all levels of government, from your local sheriffs in podunk towns to the highest levels of government.
if there weren't tons of money in it, the war would not be fought!
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Posted by: Zuma on Dec 20, 2007 6:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My freedom of consciousness not only equals my freedoms of speech and assembly but also precedes them.
There must be greater distinctions and definitions in drug jargon as to what is and what isn't psychoactive. As the article mentions, we are innately moved to alter our consciousness, but we can either do that crudely through body drugs or more sublimely through head drugs. Cocaine and it's derivatives muddle those distinctions. Thanks to our government, we have an even more muddled mess with the ever greater derivatives. Upon the flow shifting to Mexico, we then even got the blowback of the popular uprising of ephedrine-based crank.
Recently the Netherlands felt forced to regard psychedelics differently than their old evenhanded approach vis a vis marijuana. Well, duh. Mushrooms are useful but still considerably a larger undertaking than any joint of primo.
I submit not all drugs are equal. They should each be regarded uniquely.
Personally, I would fully legalize marijuana just as quickly as I would seek to regulate the concentrated dose hits of THC that would be sure to follow.
Legalizing drugs must be done for it's own sake. Doing so will solve one set of [ethical and moral] problems and create another set [of practical and cultural], but justice will be served and liberty regained.
Strongly consider what Terence Mckenna had to say with his book, 'Food Of The Gods'.
Consider South America's future place, especially given the way things are going all around.
Consider the good done us by these things, eh?
This bounty of our Earth.
http://zuma.vip.warped.com/z/#points
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» A tiered system for Recreational Drug Regulation
Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» RE: A tiered system - medical
Posted by: Lauren
» Replace Prohibition with Drug Licenses, Part One
Posted by: timemachinist
» Replace Prohibition with Drug Licenses, Part Two
Posted by: timemachinist
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Posted by: jmmartin on Dec 20, 2007 6:48 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
(1) Drive the criminal element out of the drug business; shut it down; cripple it; put where Al Capone has gone.
(2) Make safer, more responsible drug use a reality, doing much to end overdosing, the cutting of drugs with toxic substances, and the dispensing of "hot shots."
(3) Divert the billions spent on the hopelessly useless "War on Drugs" to such things as school and infrastructure funding, making sure no child goes to bed hungry, &c.
(4) Convince more people to eschew such genuinely harmful drugs as alcohol in favor of less harmful, more haimish things like pot.
(5) Do away with bureaucracies like the D.E.A. which is as worthless as tits on a boar hog.
(6) I could go on but you get the idea.
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Posted by: xvictor on Dec 20, 2007 7:36 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I see some cops wearing medals on their uniforms. How many, I wonder, were those awards given to them for busting disenfranchised youths trying to make a few bucks???
Bernie Kerik, Rudy Ghouliani's flunkie, did so as an undercover cop. The system just sucks!!!!
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Posted by: PaulK on Dec 20, 2007 7:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We need drug education that deals functionally with sex. For non-sex drugs, we need better age-appropriate education about huffing. Cigarette smoking and roids are often about body sculpting.
Decriminalize/Legalize which drugs?
Pot is the good poster child. Pot isn’t quite vodka because vodka is physically addictive. We have millions of drunks (and drunk drivers) who can’t quit their drinking until they die early.
Crack cocaine and heroin are the bad poster children simply because the poorer class uses them. Upper crust addicts do Oxycontin and snort cocaine powder.
Steroids are legal with a prescription. Steroids are famous for roid rage and losses of life expectancy.
Huffing materials are legal and in every home. Huffers like to get drunk for a couple of minutes on airplane glue, on Glade cans and on magic markers. Huffing kills brain cells like crazy, but it leaves no clue, just a deadbrain holding the tube. It’s the first choice of little kids. Maybe 1/5 of little kids huff.
Behavior counts as much as the drug
Drunk driving is more dangerous to society than drinking at home. Going to gay anonymous sex parties is a good way to become an AIDS vector, and the same for heroin addicts not cleaning their works. We need to criminalize certain behaviors which affect society.
We also have regulations shutting people off at bars when they’re really drunk. The amount matters.
We should have a regulation prohibiting the addition of sugar to cigarettes, in order to create a chemical through combustion that makes cigarettes harder to quit.
Rich people’s penalties versus poor people’s penalties.
A family member got busted for running a red light while drunk. He’s upper middle class if not wealthy, and the penalties laid on him were severe enough. He found someone to drive him to work for 90 days so that no one at his expensive job knew, and so he saved the job. With no threat of prison, he cleaned up and never drove drunk again. He still drinks a bit.
We need laws tailored to the person’s wealth. Everyone needs a proper incentive, not draconian and not a slap on the wrist either, to not drive drunk or stoned.
Maybe we specifically need weekend-only drunk driving prisons that you can find in Europe.
Many U.S. prisons don’t work.
Too many times we put people away forever. We get Geritol cons, these old wheelchair-bound guys who show up at religious services in the medium-security units. Cons dumped on the street will commit crimes because they don’t know how to live on the outside anymore. Other cons commit suicide when released.
Legalizing drugs only because our justice system is the world’s most incompetent, is too simplistic.
Using, dealing, and kingpins
Anti-cancer pot clubs deal pot without murdering other dealers.
We need to remove the money incentive from violent criminals.
Our government springs from a truly idiotic electoral system, where campaign contributions, e.g. bribes, always win majorities in Congress. Our government will always take the “everything is subordinate to creating tax revenue” theme and run with it. We need the health of our society.
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» I dropped acid because
Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» Special Occasions only!
Posted by: timemachinist
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Posted by: lc on Dec 20, 2007 8:04 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
US society is uncivilized. By sanctioning war on it own people it thus insures that its own people will support war anywhere else. What goes around, comes back around.
IM
Belteshazzar
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» RE: SWAT teams Fight Democracy
Posted by: dover23
» RE: SWAT teams Fight Democracy
Posted by: Timba
» RE: SWAT teams Fight Democracy
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: Azraelsjudgement on Dec 20, 2007 8:17 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Locking up drug users with murders and rapists is a human rights nightmare. It also does not help the situation but will make it worse. legalize drugs and you stop the major funding for criminal elements dropping them out of business.
Hemp is only illegal because it is easy to grow and hard for the government to regulate(tax). It also can be used for many things which would cut out corporations and their chemicals.
The war on drugs was created to steal more money from the public and to take away more freedoms from us. It also jacks up the police with military grade weapons they should never have.
There is no benefit to the war on drugs. It also was enver amended to the constitution like prohibition of alcohol was which makes it illegal.
Anytime the government declares war on anything it is for their benefit and at the cost of regular citizens.
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Posted by: reevolve on Dec 20, 2007 8:53 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When you start talking about things like heroin, meth and cocaine, the situation is more complicated, and legalization advocates have to start honestly addressing the social costs to legalization of these substances.
First, use will be more widespread. There is no reason to suspect that it wouldn't be. When you make something easier to get, more people will get it. Anyone who advocates for greater gun control understands this. Banning machine guns will not eradicate machine guns, but being able to buy them at the corner gun shop will certainly increase their presence.
Second, with increased use comes increased addiction. Now, the libertarian in me that says that people should be able to put whatever they want into their bodies is now saying "wait, now I have to PAY for the drugs that people put into their bodies?," as the author suggests.
Third, addiction brings crime. Unless you are Rush Limbaugh or Amy Winehouse, you probably can't afford to maintain a drug habit for very long without resorting to crime. That has social costs as well.
Even given all of this, it may still make more sense, both economically and socially, to legalize these drugs, considering the costs of the so-called war on drugs. I don't know if it does or doesn't, but I do know that ignoring the flip side of this debate and pretending that legalization is going to be nothing but positive is useless. We need to have an honest discussion of the costs and benefits if we're going to get anywhere.
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» RE: the other side of the debate
Posted by: davesilvan
» RE: the other side of the debate
Posted by: reevolve
» RE: the other side of the debate
Posted by: Janie13
» RE: the other side of the debate
Posted by: bigremo
» What was I thinking?
Posted by: reevolve
» RE: What was I thinking?
Posted by: left_libertarian
» Hear! Hear!
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: the other side of the debate
Posted by: 2dogarage
» RE: the other side of the debate
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: the other side of the debate
Posted by: drmflorida
» dr.m! dr.m!
Posted by: 2dogarage
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Posted by: Woeful on Dec 20, 2007 9:02 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We need to tax and control the distribution of drugs, so that we have a better idea of who is dealing, and then use the tax money for awareness programs, and to help those who do become addicted. This is the only sane and human approach to the problem.
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Posted by: beeden on Dec 20, 2007 9:22 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Few of these employees would like to see their jobs go astray, and their incomes depleted, and would rarely apart from the social workers, perhaps, take up any flag of decriminalisation or for legalisation.
There is systemic corruption with the current policies and only society as a whole can take a stand for legalisation and decriminalisation, much as it did in regard to the prohibition of alcohol. The idea though that the gangsters will then go away is equally ludicrous, when prohibition ended they set up Las Vegas, not just alcohol but gambling and prostitution as well, for sale.
High Times magazine reported how drugs legally sold in Amsterdam had come from villages in poor rural Asia, where villagers were forced to grow the marijuana, but given little in return, due to their enforced labour through national criminal gangs. The villagers were literally held captive and enslaved by criminal elements.
Given these criminal gangs access to vast amounts of wealth from the period of illegality, these same gangs may well become the "new suppliers" of an older trade, and poorer communities throughout the globe become the victims of drug feudalism ( as opposed to oil/timber/mobile phone minerals/gold/uranium feudalism - international corporation is "king"), where they are required by gangsters to grow drugs rather than their own food needs. Just so people in the "West" can get high.
As legal groups this may be of benefit, to the larger community by paying taxes for profits, but as current mega-companies breach national laws in the almighty pursuit of profit, I fear there can only be some real change if in the case of marijuana people were legally allowed to grow their own.
I think it would be great if drugs were decriminalised, and the horrific statistics of incarceration in the US and around the world for marijuana ( in particular),were laid to rest, but any future markets for a total decriminalisation of all drugs will be beset with the previous leaders in the field, the gangsters, and their hangers-on, the politicians and officials who have allowed the illegal system to flourish.
Only an intergovernmental system, that cannot be privatised, and is able to monitor quality (of product and the lives of production)through International regulation, may hold some hope, though as evidenced by various other protection agencies ( environment), this too seems another opportunity for corruption.
The real challenge is to build a world society where mind altering drugs are not needed, especially when drug use further entrenches human exploitation for the benefit of the already rich, to the detriment and prolonged misery of those already over-exploited by the civilised "West".
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Posted by: xvictor on Dec 20, 2007 9:35 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's take a former employer of mine, Citigroup, as an example. This is a HUGE entity. Every new employee must undergo drug testing as a condition for employment. The company must spend a significant fortune for this. That's money that could have gone to employee raises, shareholders, fringe benefits like daycare or expanded vacation/sick days, increased training opportunities, etc. Stuff that brings demonstratively good things to people.
Drug testing supposedly making the workplace safer??? Give me a break!!! Ironically, since the inception of drug testing during the Reagan era, businesses suffered high rates of sensational violence in schools and in the workplace. Not one incident was from the result of controlled substance use. Many times, however, the violence is usually precipitated from regular alcohol and prescription drug consumption.
How much money is spent for drug testing? Those who really benefit are the drug testing outfits who lavishly lobby congress to perpetuate this scheme, and the folks who make the "toxic flusher" solutions that guarantees u pass a drug test. That nullifies any real purpose to drug testing. I know, I took a dose and IT WORKS!!!
So go to a bathroom and pee while someone is watching. How humiliating is that, Mr Big Brother?? And what's the point, really.
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» Still needed in some industries
Posted by: truthteller
» RE: Still needed in some industries
Posted by: Jeff.Friend
» Doctors....
Posted by: bmullins12
» Drug testing has limits
Posted by: PaulK
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Posted by: VickyinSD on Dec 20, 2007 9:56 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My personal opinion is that the devastation alcohol wreaks on the body and mind is far greater than any drug I've ever seen... but alcohol is "legal"?
It's all just a game our government plays involving the population. We are the pawns they feed their biased bullshit to, ignoring both truth and science, instead focusing on keeping corporations happy and a large segment of our society on the fringes, with no voice or vote. Then they conveniently under-fund mental health programs nationwide, denying much needed treatment to millions. (Just sweep them all under the rug)
How many more "liberal" voters would go to the polls on election day if the policies denying felons the right to vote were rescinded? Hmmmm...
Not all drug users are felons, and not all felons are drug users, but a large percentage of people in prison are there because of drugs. Many more are introduced to drugs inside those same prisons, where drugs flow freely, but not for free. Prison guards sell everything from tobacco to heroin, while "the system" turns a blind eye to the problem.
The DOJ is considering using Blackwater in the "War on Drugs". The "Governator" wants funding for more prisons and prison beds to ease overcrowding in CA prisons, but twice vetoed legislation allowing industrial hemp farming in the state! One costs billions in taxes to fund, the other would bring in much needed tax revenue, put an end to the required importation of a crop with more uses than any other plant on this planet, and would totally piss-off corporations whose products would be replaced by something more natural.
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Posted by: xbj on Dec 20, 2007 10:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Give it up already. Illegal drugs will never be legalized, they're far too profitable for the main mob groups that really run this country. And provide the perfect way these groups can act unilaterally with impunity and complete lack of accountability to anyone, anytime, indefinitely.
And you thought we bombed Afghanistan back to the stone age to get even for 9-11, instead of to restart the opium poppy heroin trade that had completely ended for religious reasons under the Taliban.
Welcome to Amerika, the "greatest country on earth".
Not even close.
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» RE: How quaintly naive
Posted by: 2dogarage
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Posted by: handygeek on Dec 20, 2007 10:50 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: ven IF he got into office, which is impossible, he couldn't do SHIT.
Posted by: xvictor
» His nomination is very possible, he is in fact a front-runner
Posted by: CUnknown
» RE: His nomination is very possible, he is in fact a front-runner
Posted by: handygeek
» RE: ven IF he got into office, which is impossible, he couldn't do SHIT.
Posted by: handygeek
» RE: Ron Paul is NOT Jesus
Posted by: xbj
» RE: on Paul is NOT Jesus
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: on Paul is NOT Jesus
Posted by: xbj
» so would Gravel and Kucinich....
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» RE: so would Gravel and Kucinich....
Posted by: lamar
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Posted by: Archangel on Dec 20, 2007 11:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Prohibition didn't work for the same reason...Americans like to get high...they like the way booze and other drugs change their consciousness. Duh! It feels good. Because of this, the demand continues. As long as the demand is high the booze and other drugs will find a way yo the American public.
Additionally, addiction is a medical problem and should be treated as such. We do not throw diabetics in jail when they eat jelly doughnuts against the doc's advise, do we?
Time to end all the wasted resources and legalize, because the jails are packed with non-violent drug offenders and the drugs are better and more available than ever before. After 35 years of effort, resouces, and work the situation remains the same or worse.
With the savings, we might be able to pay down the astronomical national debt that Bozo has run up in just seven years.
Wake up America!
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Posted by: magus65 on Dec 20, 2007 12:38 PM
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The drug war helps to maintain the street price of cocaine sold by the CIA. It also funds increased police presence in support of plans for Martial Law (an oxymoron if ever there was on), and funds the privatized prison system.
This is why drugs will remain illegal.
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» CIA plane crashes with 4 tons of cocaine
Posted by: davesilvan
» RE: The reason
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
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Posted by: davesilvan on Dec 20, 2007 1:15 PM
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Any substance which when used produces chemical reactions in the brain is a drug. It's hypocritical (and very racist, as I've found in 6 years of research) that the government can condone the two biggest killers, tobacco and alcohol, while outlawing everything else that was brought into use in this country by minorities.
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» Yes, Much Reefer Madness had racial overtones
Posted by: timemachinist
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Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Dec 20, 2007 1:30 PM
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Posted by: JoAnne on Dec 20, 2007 2:27 PM
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Posted by: nfamous on Dec 20, 2007 3:32 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I for one don't believe that the drug policy is indifferent for one second. The people that craft it have a very specific purposes in mind, not the least of which is the enslavement of humanity for profit. It also keeps Americans divided along racial and economic lines. If we legalize drugs there would be little way to justify to mass incarceration of nonwhites anymore. That would negate one of the most longly held stereotypes of young black men as drug dealers and thugs. I’m sure the record companies would still make the music however so suburban whites kids can feel cool by trying to identify with a culture they scarcely know a damn thing about. The government is a drug dealer here and abroad of the illegal and legal brands. Have we already forgotten about how the CIA infested poor black neighborhoods with crack cocaine so they could fund the Sandanistas in the Iran Contra affair? They can’t get enough of Ollie North on Fox News. No this government deals drugs and you don't ask a drug dealer to stop selling drugs. That's like asking a prostitute to stop having sex.
I’m tired of the hypocrisy not only of the phony drug war but in the US in general. Nothing is ever what it seems or purports to be. We are a nation of liars and empty rhetoric with no soul or compassion for anyone or anything except our pets and the next paycheck. Capitalism has indeed does it job and until marijuana starts making money for corporations we can literally and legally forget any legalization of pot beyond medicinal use. My brother was killed by a drunk driver in 1992. The driver served a month in jail because the penalties were light back then. I wish like hell that guy had only smoked some herb and not downed a fifth of tequila.
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» RE: The War on Thugs and White Fear
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: rcpi on Dec 20, 2007 4:07 PM
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The use and influence of chemical stimulants by humans during our collective development is thoroughly established. I think Oxygen was considered a high at one time. Now, the lack of it seems to be more appealing.
So since we all are descendant from our past, we may consider creating a better prospect for our future. Take some time and give it some thought.
Unfortunately, now the USA is in the business of Drugs. More now than Capone could have dream' t of. So I doubt that the current system will ever kick it's habits. Incarceration is just too damn profitable.
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Posted by: Morgaine Swann on Dec 20, 2007 5:07 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since the beginning of time, people have gotten high. There will always be a certain segment of the population that will ingest poisons, smoke plants, make psychedelic teas or even lick a certain kind of toad for a good buzz. There are also plenty of people who use mind altering substances as part of their religious practices, and many of these drugs have legitimate medicinal and therapeutic uses that are forbidden by prohibition.
The only people who profit from the current situation are drug dealers. One wonders why all these wealthy politicians think prohibition is a good idea.
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» The CIA profits, terrorists profit, dictators profit, prison contractors profit, politicians profit.
Posted by: thornwolf
» RE: They can't even keep drugs out of the JAILS!
Posted by: xvictor
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Posted by: warriornation on Dec 20, 2007 9:37 PM
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» Most drug users are not addicts and don't need "treatment"
Posted by: timemachinist
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Posted by: richholland on Dec 20, 2007 11:55 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
in holland coffeeshops can have a license for these products as long as they donot sell alcohol and/or hard drugs.
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» War on "hard drugs" is counter-productive
Posted by: timemachinist
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Posted by: thornwolf on Dec 21, 2007 5:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2. Everyone who has decided to use drugs is already using them or about to obtain them.
There you have it. No amount of prohibition is going to change that reality. So why make all the obscene profits available from illegal trafficking? Legalize!
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Posted by: domlingus on Dec 21, 2007 5:31 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People who become addicted following your disinformation about drugs will sooner or later become abstinent, it's only a question of whether they live long enough to make the choice, or have it made for them by death.
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» RE: Mr.
Posted by: bruteforce
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Posted by: Gaubladt on Dec 21, 2007 8:20 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The alternative to the drug war is to keep the drugs illegal for the general population while establishing a mechanism that provide drugs to addicts and makes sure that they don't overdose or share with others. Rehab options could also be provided at distribution locations.
The combination of legal drugs and mass media is also pretty dangerous. Advertising in the media and on labels for addictive drugs like alcohol and cigarettes is incredibly seductive.
I hate to think what the media culture would do with opiates.
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» RE: Legalizing alcohol isn't so great either.
Posted by: left_libertarian
» RE: Legalizing alcohol isn't so great either.
Posted by: richholland
» Prohibition makes heroin much more dangerous
Posted by: timemachinist
» "Society of Addicts" alarmist myth
Posted by: timemachinist
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Posted by: marid on Dec 21, 2007 3:45 PM
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Many times the real reasons are hard to see. As my old dad said follow the money.
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» RE: But we miss the point
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: flapdoodle on Dec 22, 2007 11:56 AM
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WRONG. If we could learn one thing about the drug question, it would go like this; A lot of people- Not All, of course- like their drug(s) a lot. Therefore, they Will have the drug(s), whether they are illegal or not. Why? Because they are willing to pay to get them, and as long as this is the case there will be someone that will be glad to supply them. This may be a bit simplistic in itself, but it also happens to be an extremely well documented and proven fact.
On the other hand, the myth that more and stronger laws will change this has been proved to be 99% wrong. The well known 'Law of unintended consequences' dominates the situation, and the cpnsequences here are that drugs are everywhere. And they are infinitely more available than they were when we started the so called "War on drugs" And it's no longer just the friend of a friend down the street that's making a few bucks off it, it has -at least in my neck of the woods- recently caught the attention of large organized crime. The local County sheriff gave a report on the radio last night saying that they were encountering Cannabis "grows"as big as a hundred thousand plants (in armed camps)! Local law enforcement can't deal with it , and the sheriff himself has said he thinks flat out legalization is the only answer.
The same general idea holds true for all drugs. There doesn't seem to be any real "answer" but the last thing we need is to throw more and harsher laws at the problem.
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Posted by: whealeydj on Dec 22, 2007 3:07 PM
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» RE: Freedom and Self-Determination Trump the Consequences
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» Yes, Prohibition is Totalitarianism
Posted by: timemachinist
» Prohibition maximizes the dangers and solves no problems
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: consequences of legalization will be increased use
Posted by: flapdoodle
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Posted by: pwhite97624 on Dec 22, 2007 5:31 PM
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» Watch out for those satanists!
Posted by: timemachinist
» Alcohol IS a drug
Posted by: timemachinist
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Posted by: siamdave on Dec 22, 2007 9:50 PM
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Posted by: Paxmana1 on Dec 26, 2007 12:47 PM
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The mind set of those who use natural substances derived from plants depends upon the reason which can be encompassed by Religious or Recreational.
And what its all about of course is to induce another mindset and if for religious purposes it would be accompanied by such techniques of mantra, yantra, chanting and rhythmic drums .. it is well documented that such experiences have bought about profound inner changes .. the acolyte was guided by the master.
When we get to the recreational use .. it then gets complicated because the recreational purpose has many shades of grey .. and the substances used are widened to take in many of the man made scourges as they tinker with natures molecules.
The mind sets exhibited by the needle people and the Cocaine snorters tends to be hard line cynical Freudian .. whereas the users of untampered with natural substances .. tend be more Jungian in mindset.
Then of course there is the scourge of alcohol abuse .. readily available and cheap by comparison .. it is well known in the bars where people hang out to score .. that a person who has become habituated to a particular drug is not necessarily addicted to other drugs which appears within their ken.
Someone pointed out quite early in this thread that its not the gun but the personality .. I agree with that .. and would like to add .. and to that personality (mindset) one brings all sorts of emotional baggage .. because its not the drugs .. its the abuse of drugs.
For the past 50 or 60 years on a global basis the world has been steadily speeding up .. we have witnessed the assault on family's .. two wages become necessary to meet the mortgage and the financial and emotional responsibility of parenthood .. the gap between the peoples becomes ever wider .. the disenfranchised youth that roam the ghettos of the world .. a grim world of survival of the fittest and young men turned into police dog fodder and incarcerated.
Its the stress engendered .. for many that is the ever tightening piano wire around our collective throats .. there are those of course of sterner moral fiber who do not succumb .. but let them have an emphatic insight into a social problem .. one that cannot be solved by incarceration or coercion in any shape or form .. it must be solved by raising the consciousness of those afflicted and finally start to tackle those horrendous social problems that have given rise to our current impasse.
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Posted by: terryton on Dec 26, 2007 1:32 PM
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My plan is to trade violence and criminality for education and treatment. There will remain some traditional legal issues.
First is the educational component: classes for each mood-altering chemical the person wishes to use and that includes one of the most harmful yet now legal ones, alcohol. Upon successful completion of the course a license will be issued for that person to obtain the drug at a properly licensed pharmacy or store.
Second, certain amounts considered reasonable recreational amounts would be allowed. If the licensee exceeds that amount a psychologist or other trained professional will contact him/her for consultation. Most often drug abuse is a symptom of a person self-medicating for unexplored or denied issues.
Third, we substitute counseling and hospitalization for imprisonment. Legalization will diminish greatly much property crime committed to obtain money for expensive black market drugs. Legalization will remove the cause of much violence in turf wars and vengeance. This will ease our prison population. It will reduce family violence because many people in need of treatment will now get counseling rather than prison. Little needed rehabilitation or counseling is available in prison. Most convicts just get worse.
Fourth; and by no means least it will lesson police criminal behavior and aid to restore respect for the law and our justice system.
Today our computer power and linking make all this easy to implement and track.
I speak as a thoughtful, grateful, recovering addict and alcoholic with nearly 12 years of blessed recovery. It has not been easy yet my spiritual journey, self-discovery and growth continue because I stay active in those pursuits.
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Posted by: Bearzerker on Dec 27, 2007 2:05 PM
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our 21st century farmers are fortunately potheads who put their labour and love into making the most splendid crop for their friends, family and business!
I'm just asking people to imagine the dedication that these farmers could/would enjoy in growing their own munchies to to offset the high they'd be allowed to grow once Hemp is legal again and how that could benefit the world!
Just another stupid thought on how to justify this un-win able drug policy that profits too many at the expense of others...
Land of the free be dammed
FREE Marc Emery!!!
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Posted by: GamePhase on Dec 28, 2007 1:51 PM
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Posted by: vox persona on Dec 20, 2007 12:07 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
Posted by: somegirl
» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
Posted by: rocketman
» Now it becomes clear
Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» You see, I notice a pattern here in the South
Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» RE: You see, I notice a pattern here in the South
Posted by: rocketman
» I was paying attention rocketman...
Posted by: Centavo
» RE: I was paying attention rocketman...
Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: You see, I notice a pattern here in the South
Posted by: magus65
» RE: You see, I notice a pattern here in the South
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» Oh? I'm a liberal now?
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» RE: You see, I notice a pattern here in the South
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» RE: You see, I notice a pattern here in the South
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» RE: You see, I notice a pattern here in the South
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» RE: You see, I notice a pattern here in the South
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» RE: Now it becomes clear
Posted by: jroth420
» RE: Now it becomes clear
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
Posted by: peacefullaim
» BTW who pays for the prisons
Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» RE: BTW who pays for the prisons
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» RE: BTW who pays for the prisons
Posted by: newtype_alpha
» RE: BTW who pays for the prisons
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» RE: BTW who pays for the prisons
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» RE: BTW who pays for the prisons
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» RE: BTW who pays for the prisons
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» RE: BTW who pays for the prisons
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» RE: BTW who pays for the prisons
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» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
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» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
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» true fascist
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» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
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» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
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» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
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» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
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» Please, don't flatter this moron
Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» and why exactly, do they need to rob someone
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» RE: and why exactly, do they need to rob someone
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» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
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» RE: Or,Life, liberty and the pursuit of emptyness
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» You are obviously
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» RE: Or,Life, liberty - The drug war IS centered on POT
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Dec 20, 2007 12:48 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Alcohol use is kept in people's homes and in bars - there are laws against public consumption of alcohol, laws against minors in possession of alcohol, and laws that prohibit adults from buying for minors. Despite all this regulation, alcohol is for sale everywhere in the U.S. It's also heavily marketed to teenagers and adults.
Make no mistake - excessive alcohol use is the #3 killer in the United States, behind tobacco. Still, no one is suggesting going back to Prohibition days.
(The leading causes of death in 2000 were tobacco (435,000 deaths; 18.1% of total US deaths), poor diet and physical inactivity (400,000 deaths; 16.6%), and alcohol consumption (85,000 deaths; 3.5%). Other actual causes of death were microbial agents (75,000), toxic agents (55,000), motor vehicle crashes (43,000), incidents involving firearms (29,000), sexual behaviors (20,000), and illicit use of drugs (17,000)).
A sane drug policy would apply equally to alcohol, tobacco, cannabis, opium, cocaine and to other drugs. Recreational drugs could be made legal, sold to people at licensed locations (just as alcohol and tobacco are today), and the taxes would go to state and local governments. Laws banning drug use by minors, illicit traffic, and so could be implemented.
Today, around half of all newly sentenced prisoners are drug offenders (In 1970, it was 16%). Of the 2.2 million people in U.S. prisons, perhaps a quarter are there on non-violent drug charges. Since it costs as much as $50,000 a year to hold and feed a prisoner, releasing all those people (around half a million people) would save the government about $25 billion dollars a year!
What's with all the drug convictions? See: Bay Area counties toughest on black drug offenders, Dec 2007, SFC
Half of all drug offenders in prison are black, even though blacks make up about 13% of the population, and drug use rates between all racial groups are similar. Furthermore, the penalties are often selectively applied by prosecutors - rich white kids from the suburbs who get caught with a few grams of powder cocaine are treated quite differently than black kids from the ghetto with a few grams of crack cocaine.
All in all, the "Drug War" isn't about stopping drug use - it's about entrenched government agencies like the DEA, who want to stay in business, and private prison contractors, who want to keep their cells full, established drug dealers in the pharmaceutical, alcohol and tobacco corporations who don't want any competition, and, last but not least, puritanically-minded social maniacs who can't stand the idea of people enjoying themselves, whether it be booze, pot or sex that's involved.
This goes all the way back to Harry J. Anslinger, the first anti-drug crusader in the U.S. government, who stated before Congress in 1937 that
"There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos, and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz, and swing, result from marijuana use. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers, and any others."
"...the primary reason to outlaw marijuana is its effect on the degenerate races."
"Marijuana is the most violence-causing drug in the history of mankind."
Straight from the mouth of the founding father of the DEA. . .
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» RE: Legalize, tax and regulate - just like with alcohol and tobacco
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: Legalize, tax and regulate - just like with alcohol and tobacco
Posted by: drmflorida
» RE: Legalize, tax and regulate - just like with alcohol and tobacco
Posted by: aussidawg
Comments are closed-
Posted by: El Hombre Malo on Dec 20, 2007 2:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So there is not really a War to erase drugs from our societies, but to keep them in the fringes, to keep them unregulated and illegal so there are consecuences. Legal ones and health related ones, because with prohibition the manufacture of these drugs fall in the hands of people who wont hesitate to mix the product with whatever will give them a better profit. Ive heard of bricks turned to dust to be mixed with heroin injectable doses... Truth is the most dangerous drug healthwise, heroin, can be compatible with a long productive life when medical heroin is avaliable, like that of many cronic disease patients.
But for some people to push their model of society down our troaths, we need to see people suffer, be ill and in jail for not following the rules. And if that people also make a buck while fear-mongerin, all the better. Run down addicts on the street work as cautionary tale not only against drugs but against any kind of rebelious impulse.
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» michael moore .."the war is not meant to be won...it is meant to be continuous"...
Posted by: Annapurna1
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Posted by: Jeff.Friend on Dec 20, 2007 4:34 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: "putting others at risk" is the rub.
Posted by: El Hombre Malo
» RE: "putting others at risk" is the rub.
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» Red Herring: "Do you want a stoned surgeon?"
Posted by: timemachinist
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Posted by: suegei on Dec 20, 2007 4:45 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
if there were little profit in drugs...
...dealers wouldn't be hanging around outside schools giving away free samples to build a future customer base
...addicts could be treated as patients rather than criminals, so that their drug habit could be either eliminated or brought under control
...if the cost of drugs was, say, 10% of what it is now, in order to support his habit a hard-core criminal addicted to drug use would only have to knock over the head and rob 10% of the little old ladies [like me] who are just trying to get home with their social security check
...law enforcement and incarceration cost tax dollars. if drug use is not a crime, then what ...40%? more?...of the dollars we spend on our failing War on Drugs could be devoted to something more potentially rewarding. a War on Illiteracy. a War on Unemployment. a War on our Tragic Dependence on Fossil Fuel. a War on our Deteriorating National Infrastructure. We can still have the Wars we seem to be so fond of, people. we can even win some if we choose our opponents more wisely.
after all, if I'm completely wrong and legalization won't improve the situation, we can always declare a NEW War on Drugs and go back to the excellent system we have today, which is producing such grand results.
finally, please, PLEASE don't tell me I'm 'soft on drugs'. I have five kids born between 1956 and 1964; I have seen up close and personal the damage drugs can do to a life. if it would do any good, I would cheerfully advocate roasting drug dealers over a slow fire on a sharp stick. unfortunately, as long as the enormous profits are available, there are always gonna be more drug dealers than sharp sticks.
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Posted by: DigitalAztec on Dec 20, 2007 4:50 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Minorities and the poor would be affected the most - in the worst way - if narcotics were legalized.
Despair and the lack of education would not go good with addiction.
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» Wrong - alcohol, cocaine, tobacco and heroin addiction are very similar
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: Medical Maintenance
Posted by: TheLimit
» You misconstrue my statement....(Purposefully?)
Posted by: vox persona
» Alcohol is as dangerous as meth or heroin
Posted by: timemachinist
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Posted by: PJT on Dec 20, 2007 4:51 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I don't think so
Posted by: suegei
» RE: I don't think so
Posted by: somegirl
» Also a multi-billion dollar industry of "substance abuse counselors"
Posted by: defrag
» RE: Also a multi-billion dollar industry of "substance abuse counselors"
Posted by: jsheeler
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Posted by: DigitalAztec on Dec 20, 2007 4:55 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Buy Stock
Posted by: somegirl
» RE: Buy Stock
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: Prairie Fire on Dec 20, 2007 5:06 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Analysis disappointing
Posted by: somegirl
» RE: Analysis disappointing
Posted by: TheLimit
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Posted by: in ohio on Dec 20, 2007 5:13 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Attorney
Posted by: El Hombre Malo
» RE: Attorney
Posted by: TheLimit
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Posted by: DigitalAztec on Dec 20, 2007 5:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: The CIA
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: willymack on Dec 20, 2007 5:14 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: If for no other reason
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: Purple Cheese on Dec 20, 2007 5:27 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Historian David T. Courtwright explains The Controlled Substances Act: how a “big tent” reform became a punitive drug law.
Here's a summary:
The 1970 Controlled Substances Act was part of an omnibus reform package designed to rationalize, and in some respects to liberalize, American drug policy. While the legislation provided additional resources for law enforcement and a systematic means for regulating the use of most psychoactive drugs, it also did away with mandatory minimum sentences and provided more support for treatment and research. Over the next three decades, and in response to public alarm about drug abuse, the US Congress continuously amended the law to produce a more punitive system of drug control. The amendments, which gave the Drug Enforcement Administration greater control over scheduling and maintenance and which substantially increased penalties for illicit trafficking, transformed the law into the legal foundation of America’s “drug war,” as the stricter criminal approach came to be known. By the 1980s, the flexibility and innovative spirit of the original Controlled Substances Act (and that of Nixon-era drug strategy generally) had largely disappeared from American drug policy.
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Posted by: just john on Dec 20, 2007 5:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
(Just a minor semantic point.)
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» RE: ... and "illicit cultivation" would be wiped out ...
Posted by: 2dogarage
» RE: ... and "illicit cultivation" would be wiped out ...
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: maxpayne on Dec 20, 2007 5:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Thanks Max!
Posted by: garry minor
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Posted by: colinmeister on Dec 20, 2007 5:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The old legend of drug "Pushers" is just plain false. Why would selling illegal drugs require any real salesmanship skills, including provision of free samples, when there is a large market among people who are actively seeking to buy the product? New users are not introduced to drugs by unscrupulous dealers, they are introduced to them by their friends, usually occasional casual users.
Dealer vilification is a creation of governments who cannot stand the fact that someone is making money without paying any income tax on it. Pointing out that it is a tax issue might create some sympathy for drug dealers, so the government started the urban legend that dealers are the cause of the drug problem.
Legalisation is the answer - some people will take drugs whether they are legal or not, and others will choose not to take drugs.
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» RE: Dealers
Posted by: newtype_alpha
» RE: Dealers
Posted by: Lauren
» I am a career drug dealer
Posted by: timemachinist
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Posted by: lamar on Dec 20, 2007 6:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Why not?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Why not?
Posted by: bcgirl125
» RE: Why not?
Posted by: lamar
» RE: Why not?
Posted by: lamar
» RE: He who cannot be named
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: He who cannot be named
Posted by: lamar
» RE: He who cannot be named
Posted by: drmflorida
» RE: He who cannot be named
Posted by: lamar
» His Name is Kucinich, Paul, Gravel....
Posted by: timemachinist
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Posted by: skingk on Dec 20, 2007 6:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php
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Posted by: drricklippin on Dec 20, 2007 6:24 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The persistance of people like Nadelmann is a real source of hope and inspiration.
He is correct on almost all his conclusions which are based on lifelong scholarship in this area built on a foundation of human health values
(I can't resist adding the harm done in ths "war" by Big PhRMA)
Let us get behind him NOW. His day has arrived.
Dr. Rick Lippin
http://medicalcrises.blogspot.com
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Posted by: somegirl on Dec 20, 2007 6:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Like the war on terra, it's based on inflaming people's passions with disinformation, leading to massive corruption due to greed in all levels of government, from your local sheriffs in podunk towns to the highest levels of government.
if there weren't tons of money in it, the war would not be fought!
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Posted by: Zuma on Dec 20, 2007 6:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My freedom of consciousness not only equals my freedoms of speech and assembly but also precedes them.
There must be greater distinctions and definitions in drug jargon as to what is and what isn't psychoactive. As the article mentions, we are innately moved to alter our consciousness, but we can either do that crudely through body drugs or more sublimely through head drugs. Cocaine and it's derivatives muddle those distinctions. Thanks to our government, we have an even more muddled mess with the ever greater derivatives. Upon the flow shifting to Mexico, we then even got the blowback of the popular uprising of ephedrine-based crank.
Recently the Netherlands felt forced to regard psychedelics differently than their old evenhanded approach vis a vis marijuana. Well, duh. Mushrooms are useful but still considerably a larger undertaking than any joint of primo.
I submit not all drugs are equal. They should each be regarded uniquely.
Personally, I would fully legalize marijuana just as quickly as I would seek to regulate the concentrated dose hits of THC that would be sure to follow.
Legalizing drugs must be done for it's own sake. Doing so will solve one set of [ethical and moral] problems and create another set [of practical and cultural], but justice will be served and liberty regained.
Strongly consider what Terence Mckenna had to say with his book, 'Food Of The Gods'.
Consider South America's future place, especially given the way things are going all around.
Consider the good done us by these things, eh?
This bounty of our Earth.
http://zuma.vip.warped.com/z/#points
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» A tiered system for Recreational Drug Regulation
Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» RE: A tiered system - medical
Posted by: Lauren
» Replace Prohibition with Drug Licenses, Part One
Posted by: timemachinist
» Replace Prohibition with Drug Licenses, Part Two
Posted by: timemachinist
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Posted by: jmmartin on Dec 20, 2007 6:48 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
(1) Drive the criminal element out of the drug business; shut it down; cripple it; put where Al Capone has gone.
(2) Make safer, more responsible drug use a reality, doing much to end overdosing, the cutting of drugs with toxic substances, and the dispensing of "hot shots."
(3) Divert the billions spent on the hopelessly useless "War on Drugs" to such things as school and infrastructure funding, making sure no child goes to bed hungry, &c.
(4) Convince more people to eschew such genuinely harmful drugs as alcohol in favor of less harmful, more haimish things like pot.
(5) Do away with bureaucracies like the D.E.A. which is as worthless as tits on a boar hog.
(6) I could go on but you get the idea.
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Posted by: xvictor on Dec 20, 2007 7:36 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I see some cops wearing medals on their uniforms. How many, I wonder, were those awards given to them for busting disenfranchised youths trying to make a few bucks???
Bernie Kerik, Rudy Ghouliani's flunkie, did so as an undercover cop. The system just sucks!!!!
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Posted by: PaulK on Dec 20, 2007 7:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We need drug education that deals functionally with sex. For non-sex drugs, we need better age-appropriate education about huffing. Cigarette smoking and roids are often about body sculpting.
Decriminalize/Legalize which drugs?
Pot is the good poster child. Pot isn’t quite vodka because vodka is physically addictive. We have millions of drunks (and drunk drivers) who can’t quit their drinking until they die early.
Crack cocaine and heroin are the bad poster children simply because the poorer class uses them. Upper crust addicts do Oxycontin and snort cocaine powder.
Steroids are legal with a prescription. Steroids are famous for roid rage and losses of life expectancy.
Huffing materials are legal and in every home. Huffers like to get drunk for a couple of minutes on airplane glue, on Glade cans and on magic markers. Huffing kills brain cells like crazy, but it leaves no clue, just a deadbrain holding the tube. It’s the first choice of little kids. Maybe 1/5 of little kids huff.
Behavior counts as much as the drug
Drunk driving is more dangerous to society than drinking at home. Going to gay anonymous sex parties is a good way to become an AIDS vector, and the same for heroin addicts not cleaning their works. We need to criminalize certain behaviors which affect society.
We also have regulations shutting people off at bars when they’re really drunk. The amount matters.
We should have a regulation prohibiting the addition of sugar to cigarettes, in order to create a chemical through combustion that makes cigarettes harder to quit.
Rich people’s penalties versus poor people’s penalties.
A family member got busted for running a red light while drunk. He’s upper middle class if not wealthy, and the penalties laid on him were severe enough. He found someone to drive him to work for 90 days so that no one at his expensive job knew, and so he saved the job. With no threat of prison, he cleaned up and never drove drunk again. He still drinks a bit.
We need laws tailored to the person’s wealth. Everyone needs a proper incentive, not draconian and not a slap on the wrist either, to not drive drunk or stoned.
Maybe we specifically need weekend-only drunk driving prisons that you can find in Europe.
Many U.S. prisons don’t work.
Too many times we put people away forever. We get Geritol cons, these old wheelchair-bound guys who show up at religious services in the medium-security units. Cons dumped on the street will commit crimes because they don’t know how to live on the outside anymore. Other cons commit suicide when released.
Legalizing drugs only because our justice system is the world’s most incompetent, is too simplistic.
Using, dealing, and kingpins
Anti-cancer pot clubs deal pot without murdering other dealers.
We need to remove the money incentive from violent criminals.
Our government springs from a truly idiotic electoral system, where campaign contributions, e.g. bribes, always win majorities in Congress. Our government will always take the “everything is subordinate to creating tax revenue” theme and run with it. We need the health of our society.
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» I dropped acid because
Posted by: meetmeineleusis
» Special Occasions only!
Posted by: timemachinist
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Posted by: lc on Dec 20, 2007 8:04 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
US society is uncivilized. By sanctioning war on it own people it thus insures that its own people will support war anywhere else. What goes around, comes back around.
IM
Belteshazzar
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» RE: SWAT teams Fight Democracy
Posted by: dover23
» RE: SWAT teams Fight Democracy
Posted by: Timba
» RE: SWAT teams Fight Democracy
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: Azraelsjudgement on Dec 20, 2007 8:17 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Locking up drug users with murders and rapists is a human rights nightmare. It also does not help the situation but will make it worse. legalize drugs and you stop the major funding for criminal elements dropping them out of business.
Hemp is only illegal because it is easy to grow and hard for the government to regulate(tax). It also can be used for many things which would cut out corporations and their chemicals.
The war on drugs was created to steal more money from the public and to take away more freedoms from us. It also jacks up the police with military grade weapons they should never have.
There is no benefit to the war on drugs. It also was enver amended to the constitution like prohibition of alcohol was which makes it illegal.
Anytime the government declares war on anything it is for their benefit and at the cost of regular citizens.
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Posted by: reevolve on Dec 20, 2007 8:53 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When you start talking about things like heroin, meth and cocaine, the situation is more complicated, and legalization advocates have to start honestly addressing the social costs to legalization of these substances.
First, use will be more widespread. There is no reason to suspect that it wouldn't be. When you make something easier to get, more people will get it. Anyone who advocates for greater gun control understands this. Banning machine guns will not eradicate machine guns, but being able to buy them at the corner gun shop will certainly increase their presence.
Second, with increased use comes increased addiction. Now, the libertarian in me that says that people should be able to put whatever they want into their bodies is now saying "wait, now I have to PAY for the drugs that people put into their bodies?," as the author suggests.
Third, addiction brings crime. Unless you are Rush Limbaugh or Amy Winehouse, you probably can't afford to maintain a drug habit for very long without resorting to crime. That has social costs as well.
Even given all of this, it may still make more sense, both economically and socially, to legalize these drugs, considering the costs of the so-called war on drugs. I don't know if it does or doesn't, but I do know that ignoring the flip side of this debate and pretending that legalization is going to be nothing but positive is useless. We need to have an honest discussion of the costs and benefits if we're going to get anywhere.
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» RE: the other side of the debate
Posted by: davesilvan
» RE: the other side of the debate
Posted by: reevolve
» RE: the other side of the debate
Posted by: Janie13
» RE: the other side of the debate
Posted by: bigremo
» What was I thinking?
Posted by: reevolve
» RE: What was I thinking?
Posted by: left_libertarian
» Hear! Hear!
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: the other side of the debate
Posted by: 2dogarage
» RE: the other side of the debate
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: the other side of the debate
Posted by: drmflorida
» dr.m! dr.m!
Posted by: 2dogarage
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Posted by: Woeful on Dec 20, 2007 9:02 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We need to tax and control the distribution of drugs, so that we have a better idea of who is dealing, and then use the tax money for awareness programs, and to help those who do become addicted. This is the only sane and human approach to the problem.
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Posted by: beeden on Dec 20, 2007 9:22 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Few of these employees would like to see their jobs go astray, and their incomes depleted, and would rarely apart from the social workers, perhaps, take up any flag of decriminalisation or for legalisation.
There is systemic corruption with the current policies and only society as a whole can take a stand for legalisation and decriminalisation, much as it did in regard to the prohibition of alcohol. The idea though that the gangsters will then go away is equally ludicrous, when prohibition ended they set up Las Vegas, not just alcohol but gambling and prostitution as well, for sale.
High Times magazine reported how drugs legally sold in Amsterdam had come from villages in poor rural Asia, where villagers were forced to grow the marijuana, but given little in return, due to their enforced labour through national criminal gangs. The villagers were literally held captive and enslaved by criminal elements.
Given these criminal gangs access to vast amounts of wealth from the period of illegality, these same gangs may well become the "new suppliers" of an older trade, and poorer communities throughout the globe become the victims of drug feudalism ( as opposed to oil/timber/mobile phone minerals/gold/uranium feudalism - international corporation is "king"), where they are required by gangsters to grow drugs rather than their own food needs. Just so people in the "West" can get high.
As legal groups this may be of benefit, to the larger community by paying taxes for profits, but as current mega-companies breach national laws in the almighty pursuit of profit, I fear there can only be some real change if in the case of marijuana people were legally allowed to grow their own.
I think it would be great if drugs were decriminalised, and the horrific statistics of incarceration in the US and around the world for marijuana ( in particular),were laid to rest, but any future markets for a total decriminalisation of all drugs will be beset with the previous leaders in the field, the gangsters, and their hangers-on, the politicians and officials who have allowed the illegal system to flourish.
Only an intergovernmental system, that cannot be privatised, and is able to monitor quality (of product and the lives of production)through International regulation, may hold some hope, though as evidenced by various other protection agencies ( environment), this too seems another opportunity for corruption.
The real challenge is to build a world society where mind altering drugs are not needed, especially when drug use further entrenches human exploitation for the benefit of the already rich, to the detriment and prolonged misery of those already over-exploited by the civilised "West".
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Posted by: xvictor on Dec 20, 2007 9:35 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's take a former employer of mine, Citigroup, as an example. This is a HUGE entity. Every new employee must undergo drug testing as a condition for employment. The company must spend a significant fortune for this. That's money that could have gone to employee raises, shareholders, fringe benefits like daycare or expanded vacation/sick days, increased training opportunities, etc. Stuff that brings demonstratively good things to people.
Drug testing supposedly making the workplace safer??? Give me a break!!! Ironically, since the inception of drug testing during the Reagan era, businesses suffered high rates of sensational violence in schools and in the workplace. Not one incident was from the result of controlled substance use. Many times, however, the violence is usually precipitated from regular alcohol and prescription drug consumption.
How much money is spent for drug testing? Those who really benefit are the drug testing outfits who lavishly lobby congress to perpetuate this scheme, and the folks who make the "toxic flusher" solutions that guarantees u pass a drug test. That nullifies any real purpose to drug testing. I know, I took a dose and IT WORKS!!!
So go to a bathroom and pee while someone is watching. How humiliating is that, Mr Big Brother?? And what's the point, really.
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» Still needed in some industries
Posted by: truthteller
» RE: Still needed in some industries
Posted by: Jeff.Friend
» Doctors....
Posted by: bmullins12
» Drug testing has limits
Posted by: PaulK
Comments are closed-
Posted by: VickyinSD on Dec 20, 2007 9:56 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My personal opinion is that the devastation alcohol wreaks on the body and mind is far greater than any drug I've ever seen... but alcohol is "legal"?
It's all just a game our government plays involving the population. We are the pawns they feed their biased bullshit to, ignoring both truth and science, instead focusing on keeping corporations happy and a large segment of our society on the fringes, with no voice or vote. Then they conveniently under-fund mental health programs nationwide, denying much needed treatment to millions. (Just sweep them all under the rug)
How many more "liberal" voters would go to the polls on election day if the policies denying felons the right to vote were rescinded? Hmmmm...
Not all drug users are felons, and not all felons are drug users, but a large percentage of people in prison are there because of drugs. Many more are introduced to drugs inside those same prisons, where drugs flow freely, but not for free. Prison guards sell everything from tobacco to heroin, while "the system" turns a blind eye to the problem.
The DOJ is considering using Blackwater in the "War on Drugs". The "Governator" wants funding for more prisons and prison beds to ease overcrowding in CA prisons, but twice vetoed legislation allowing industrial hemp farming in the state! One costs billions in taxes to fund, the other would bring in much needed tax revenue, put an end to the required importation of a crop with more uses than any other plant on this planet, and would totally piss-off corporations whose products would be replaced by something more natural.
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Posted by: xbj on Dec 20, 2007 10:22 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Give it up already. Illegal drugs will never be legalized, they're far too profitable for the main mob groups that really run this country. And provide the perfect way these groups can act unilaterally with impunity and complete lack of accountability to anyone, anytime, indefinitely.
And you thought we bombed Afghanistan back to the stone age to get even for 9-11, instead of to restart the opium poppy heroin trade that had completely ended for religious reasons under the Taliban.
Welcome to Amerika, the "greatest country on earth".
Not even close.
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» RE: How quaintly naive
Posted by: 2dogarage
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Posted by: handygeek on Dec 20, 2007 10:50 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: ven IF he got into office, which is impossible, he couldn't do SHIT.
Posted by: xvictor
» His nomination is very possible, he is in fact a front-runner
Posted by: CUnknown
» RE: His nomination is very possible, he is in fact a front-runner
Posted by: handygeek
» RE: ven IF he got into office, which is impossible, he couldn't do SHIT.
Posted by: handygeek
» RE: Ron Paul is NOT Jesus
Posted by: xbj
» RE: on Paul is NOT Jesus
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: on Paul is NOT Jesus
Posted by: xbj
» so would Gravel and Kucinich....
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» RE: so would Gravel and Kucinich....
Posted by: lamar
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Posted by: Archangel on Dec 20, 2007 11:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Prohibition didn't work for the same reason...Americans like to get high...they like the way booze and other drugs change their consciousness. Duh! It feels good. Because of this, the demand continues. As long as the demand is high the booze and other drugs will find a way yo the American public.
Additionally, addiction is a medical problem and should be treated as such. We do not throw diabetics in jail when they eat jelly doughnuts against the doc's advise, do we?
Time to end all the wasted resources and legalize, because the jails are packed with non-violent drug offenders and the drugs are better and more available than ever before. After 35 years of effort, resouces, and work the situation remains the same or worse.
With the savings, we might be able to pay down the astronomical national debt that Bozo has run up in just seven years.
Wake up America!
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Posted by: magus65 on Dec 20, 2007 12:38 PM
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The drug war helps to maintain the street price of cocaine sold by the CIA. It also funds increased police presence in support of plans for Martial Law (an oxymoron if ever there was on), and funds the privatized prison system.
This is why drugs will remain illegal.
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» CIA plane crashes with 4 tons of cocaine
Posted by: davesilvan
» RE: The reason
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
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Posted by: davesilvan on Dec 20, 2007 1:15 PM
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Any substance which when used produces chemical reactions in the brain is a drug. It's hypocritical (and very racist, as I've found in 6 years of research) that the government can condone the two biggest killers, tobacco and alcohol, while outlawing everything else that was brought into use in this country by minorities.
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» Yes, Much Reefer Madness had racial overtones
Posted by: timemachinist
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Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Dec 20, 2007 1:30 PM
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Posted by: JoAnne on Dec 20, 2007 2:27 PM
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Posted by: nfamous on Dec 20, 2007 3:32 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I for one don't believe that the drug policy is indifferent for one second. The people that craft it have a very specific purposes in mind, not the least of which is the enslavement of humanity for profit. It also keeps Americans divided along racial and economic lines. If we legalize drugs there would be little way to justify to mass incarceration of nonwhites anymore. That would negate one of the most longly held stereotypes of young black men as drug dealers and thugs. I’m sure the record companies would still make the music however so suburban whites kids can feel cool by trying to identify with a culture they scarcely know a damn thing about. The government is a drug dealer here and abroad of the illegal and legal brands. Have we already forgotten about how the CIA infested poor black neighborhoods with crack cocaine so they could fund the Sandanistas in the Iran Contra affair? They can’t get enough of Ollie North on Fox News. No this government deals drugs and you don't ask a drug dealer to stop selling drugs. That's like asking a prostitute to stop having sex.
I’m tired of the hypocrisy not only of the phony drug war but in the US in general. Nothing is ever what it seems or purports to be. We are a nation of liars and empty rhetoric with no soul or compassion for anyone or anything except our pets and the next paycheck. Capitalism has indeed does it job and until marijuana starts making money for corporations we can literally and legally forget any legalization of pot beyond medicinal use. My brother was killed by a drunk driver in 1992. The driver served a month in jail because the penalties were light back then. I wish like hell that guy had only smoked some herb and not downed a fifth of tequila.
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» RE: The War on Thugs and White Fear
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: rcpi on Dec 20, 2007 4:07 PM
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The use and influence of chemical stimulants by humans during our collective development is thoroughly established. I think Oxygen was considered a high at one time. Now, the lack of it seems to be more appealing.
So since we all are descendant from our past, we may consider creating a better prospect for our future. Take some time and give it some thought.
Unfortunately, now the USA is in the business of Drugs. More now than Capone could have dream' t of. So I doubt that the current system will ever kick it's habits. Incarceration is just too damn profitable.
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Posted by: Morgaine Swann on Dec 20, 2007 5:07 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Since the beginning of time, people have gotten high. There will always be a certain segment of the population that will ingest poisons, smoke plants, make psychedelic teas or even lick a certain kind of toad for a good buzz. There are also plenty of people who use mind altering substances as part of their religious practices, and many of these drugs have legitimate medicinal and therapeutic uses that are forbidden by prohibition.
The only people who profit from the current situation are drug dealers. One wonders why all these wealthy politicians think prohibition is a good idea.
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» The CIA profits, terrorists profit, dictators profit, prison contractors profit, politicians profit.
Posted by: thornwolf
» RE: They can't even keep drugs out of the JAILS!
Posted by: xvictor
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Posted by: warriornation on Dec 20, 2007 9:37 PM
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» Most drug users are not addicts and don't need "treatment"
Posted by: timemachinist
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Posted by: richholland on Dec 20, 2007 11:55 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
in holland coffeeshops can have a license for these products as long as they donot sell alcohol and/or hard drugs.
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» War on "hard drugs" is counter-productive
Posted by: timemachinist
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Posted by: thornwolf on Dec 21, 2007 5:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2. Everyone who has decided to use drugs is already using them or about to obtain them.
There you have it. No amount of prohibition is going to change that reality. So why make all the obscene profits available from illegal trafficking? Legalize!
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Posted by: domlingus on Dec 21, 2007 5:31 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People who become addicted following your disinformation about drugs will sooner or later become abstinent, it's only a question of whether they live long enough to make the choice, or have it made for them by death.
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» RE: Mr.
Posted by: bruteforce
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Posted by: Gaubladt on Dec 21, 2007 8:20 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The alternative to the drug war is to keep the drugs illegal for the general population while establishing a mechanism that provide drugs to addicts and makes sure that they don't overdose or share with others. Rehab options could also be provided at distribution locations.
The combination of legal drugs and mass media is also pretty dangerous. Advertising in the media and on labels for addictive drugs like alcohol and cigarettes is incredibly seductive.
I hate to think what the media culture would do with opiates.
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» RE: Legalizing alcohol isn't so great either.
Posted by: left_libertarian
» RE: Legalizing alcohol isn't so great either.
Posted by: richholland
» Prohibition makes heroin much more dangerous
Posted by: timemachinist
» "Society of Addicts" alarmist myth
Posted by: timemachinist
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Posted by: marid on Dec 21, 2007 3:45 PM
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Many times the real reasons are hard to see. As my old dad said follow the money.
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» RE: But we miss the point
Posted by: richholland
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Posted by: flapdoodle on Dec 22, 2007 11:56 AM
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WRONG. If we could learn one thing about the drug question, it would go like this; A lot of people- Not All, of course- like their drug(s) a lot. Therefore, they Will have the drug(s), whether they are illegal or not. Why? Because they are willing to pay to get them, and as long as this is the case there will be someone that will be glad to supply them. This may be a bit simplistic in itself, but it also happens to be an extremely well documented and proven fact.
On the other hand, the myth that more and stronger laws will change this has been proved to be 99% wrong. The well known 'Law of unintended consequences' dominates the situation, and the cpnsequences here are that drugs are everywhere. And they are infinitely more available than they were when we started the so called "War on drugs" And it's no longer just the friend of a friend down the street that's making a few bucks off it, it has -at least in my neck of the woods- recently caught the attention of large organized crime. The local County sheriff gave a report on the radio last night saying that they were encountering Cannabis "grows"as big as a hundred thousand plants (in armed camps)! Local law enforcement can't deal with it , and the sheriff himself has said he thinks flat out legalization is the only answer.
The same general idea holds true for all drugs. There doesn't seem to be any real "answer" but the last thing we need is to throw more and harsher laws at the problem.
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Posted by: whealeydj on Dec 22, 2007 3:07 PM
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» RE: Freedom and Self-Determination Trump the Consequences
Posted by: rfrancis@godisdead.com
» Yes, Prohibition is Totalitarianism
Posted by: timemachinist
» Prohibition maximizes the dangers and solves no problems
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: consequences of legalization will be increased use
Posted by: flapdoodle
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Posted by: pwhite97624 on Dec 22, 2007 5:31 PM
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» Watch out for those satanists!
Posted by: timemachinist
» Alcohol IS a drug
Posted by: timemachinist
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Posted by: siamdave on Dec 22, 2007 9:50 PM
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Posted by: Paxmana1 on Dec 26, 2007 12:47 PM
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The mind set of those who use natural substances derived from plants depends upon the reason which can be encompassed by Religious or Recreational.
And what its all about of course is to induce another mindset and if for religious purposes it would be accompanied by such techniques of mantra, yantra, chanting and rhythmic drums .. it is well documented that such experiences have bought about profound inner changes .. the acolyte was guided by the master.
When we get to the recreational use .. it then gets complicated because the recreational purpose has many shades of grey .. and the substances used are widened to take in many of the man made scourges as they tinker with natures molecules.
The mind sets exhibited by the needle people and the Cocaine snorters tends to be hard line cynical Freudian .. whereas the users of untampered with natural substances .. tend be more Jungian in mindset.
Then of course there is the scourge of alcohol abuse .. readily available and cheap by comparison .. it is well known in the bars where people hang out to score .. that a person who has become habituated to a particular drug is not necessarily addicted to other drugs which appears within their ken.
Someone pointed out quite early in this thread that its not the gun but the personality .. I agree with that .. and would like to add .. and to that personality (mindset) one brings all sorts of emotional baggage .. because its not the drugs .. its the abuse of drugs.
For the past 50 or 60 years on a global basis the world has been steadily speeding up .. we have witnessed the assault on family's .. two wages become necessary to meet the mortgage and the financial and emotional responsibility of parenthood .. the gap between the peoples becomes ever wider .. the disenfranchised youth that roam the ghettos of the world .. a grim world of survival of the fittest and young men turned into police dog fodder and incarcerated.
Its the stress engendered .. for many that is the ever tightening piano wire around our collective throats .. there are those of course of sterner moral fiber who do not succumb .. but let them have an emphatic insight into a social problem .. one that cannot be solved by incarceration or coercion in any shape or form .. it must be solved by raising the consciousness of those afflicted and finally start to tackle those horrendous social problems that have given rise to our current impasse.
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Posted by: terryton on Dec 26, 2007 1:32 PM
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My plan is to trade violence and criminality for education and treatment. There will remain some traditional legal issues.
First is the educational component: classes for each mood-altering chemical the person wishes to use and that includes one of the most harmful yet now legal ones, alcohol. Upon successful completion of the course a license will be issued for that person to obtain the drug at a properly licensed pharmacy or store.
Second, certain amounts considered reasonable recreational amounts would be allowed. If the licensee exceeds that amount a psychologist or other trained professional will contact him/her for consultation. Most often drug abuse is a symptom of a person self-medicating for unexplored or denied issues.
Third, we substitute counseling and hospitalization for imprisonment. Legalization will diminish greatly much property crime committed to obtain money for expensive black market drugs. Legalization will remove the cause of much violence in turf wars and vengeance. This will ease our prison population. It will reduce family violence because many people in need of treatment will now get counseling rather than prison. Little needed rehabilitation or counseling is available in prison. Most convicts just get worse.
Fourth; and by no means least it will lesson police criminal behavior and aid to restore respect for the law and our justice system.
Today our computer power and linking make all this easy to implement and track.
I speak as a thoughtful, grateful, recovering addict and alcoholic with nearly 12 years of blessed recovery. It has not been easy yet my spiritual journey, self-discovery and growth continue because I stay active in those pursuits.
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Posted by: Bearzerker on Dec 27, 2007 2:05 PM
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our 21st century farmers are fortunately potheads who put their labour and love into making the most splendid crop for their friends, family and business!
I'm just asking people to imagine the dedication that these farmers could/would enjoy in growing their own munchies to to offset the high they'd be allowed to grow once Hemp is legal again and how that could benefit the world!
Just another stupid thought on how to justify this un-win able drug policy that profits too many at the expense of others...
Land of the free be dammed
FREE Marc Emery!!!
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Posted by: GamePhase on Dec 28, 2007 1:51 PM
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