COMMENTS: 83
Prude: New Book Rolls Sexuality Back Centuries
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Nostalgia is omnipresent in Prude, which reluctantly reckons that the sexual revolution did, in some ways, overhaul bedroom mores in this country: "With so many sexual taboos having been effectively dismantled, perhaps it's no surprise that sexual experimentation doesn't carry the stigma it used to, especially for young girls. Previously unacceptable sexual behavior, like same-sex relationships, is increasingly common, and at younger ages." (Emphasis mine.)
This is a typical Liebau sentiment, one that does nothing to distance itself from its clearly homophobic message. For Liebau is not simply bemoaning the fact that it's easier, and more socially acceptable, for young girls to be sexually active, but also that adult women dare to act this way as well.
In her chapter "Between the Covers," which laments that "sex between teenagers is treated as a given," she blithely glosses over a major issue affecting students' access to information and simply states, "Given its sexual content, it's not surprising that Seventeen was one of the magazines banned from a middle school in 1998." As far as I'm concerned, her follow-up to that (that the magazine's content "was at odds with school policy teaching that abstinence constitutes the best way of preventing the spread of STDs") only serves to infantilize young people. Denying them information will only lead them to seek it out from other, possibly less reputable, sources. But this is of no concern to Liebau.
Liebau is just the latest in a series of writers essentially pitting the good girls against the bad girls -- the good girls being the ones we need to protect, the slutty, bad girls being the ones who are ruining things for the good girls. Her examples are unoriginal and largely unconvincing. While Wendy Shalit cited Bratz dolls and Abercrombie and Fitch in her more nuanced Girls Gone Mild, Liebau's original research leaves much to be desired. (She concludes that R.A. Nelson's YA novel Teach Me "encourages young girls to fantasize about their teachers as sexual objects, thereby ripening them for exploitation by real-life classroom Lotharios." In fact, the student, Nine, almost winds up getting herself and her best friend killed due to her obsessed stalking. It would be quite difficult to read the book and want to emulate her.)
Both books come after a wave of tomes telling us how far we haven't come, baby, from Ariel Levy's feminist take in Female Chauvinist Pigs to Laura Sessions Stepp's supposedly objective journalistic take in Unhooked, and from Jillian Strauss's you-waited-too-long scold The Unhooked Generation, to Hayley DiMarco, who has made a cottage industry of selling girls insecurity around sex (tag line on the back cover of Sexy Girls: How Hot Is too Hot?: "If it ain't on the menu, keep it covered up!")
To be fair, the issue of girls being marketed sex-related products at increasingly young ages should be of concern to everyone -- feminists and conservatives alike. Naomi Wolf zeroed in on a Liebau target, Gossip Girl, in the pages of the New York Times. The shifting sexual landscape, threats of STDs, and reports of younger and younger children becoming sexually active are important issues, but as even Liebau herself points out, simply harping on the twin horrors of pregnancy and STDs is not the best approach.
But Liebau's arguments throughout the book show that she doesn't want to shield only girls from sex, but adults, too. Liebau is horrified that burlesque performer Dita Von Teese was featured in the Los Angeles Times's calendar section as "fashion's 'it' girl" when she's known for "stripping down to her pasties." She is not just talking about girls when she writes, " ... the idea that everyone has his or her own, individual sexual morality -- which no one else is entitled to challenge -- has contributed immeasurably to the sexualization of American culture. It's also contributed to the death of the concept of sexual shame, which is nothing more than an inner recognition that one has violated established standards of propriety, good taste, and morals." Whose standards? Whose morals? Liebau's? George W. Bush's? Mine? To pretend that Americans can all agree about anything, let alone sex, is preposterous.
Liebau simply wants to bring back the days of the scarlet letter -- and I'm not exaggerating. After lamenting the privatization of religion, she fondly quotes John Adams, circa 1789: " ... Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." Perhaps this is why Liebau's blurbs come from Dr. Laura and Kate O'Beirne, author of Women Who Make the World Worse. It's apparently inconceivable to her that there are "moral" and "religious" people who would not advocate the wholesale condemnation of sex outside of marriage.
She makes the same tired mistake that so many do, assuming that "sexual freedom" means living in a world where sex doesn't matter, to anyone. Whether we call that "do-me" or "wham, bam, thank you, ma'am," there is so much more to true sexual freedom. But in her world, you're either in a committed, monogamous relationship, or out there screwing anything that moves.
In other words, it would be nice to read a book advocating chastity that does not resort to the "why buy the cow" analogy, whether explicitly or implicitly. Liebau goes there, even in 2007: " ... rather than being taught to value those who decline to engage in easy sex, boys are simply learning to avoid them; it's easier to seek out the girls who will meet their sexual needs while asking nothing in return."
First, this is not necessarily a new trend. Nor is it one I think anyone's applauding. I certainly don't want to see the next generation of teenagers assume that sexual pleasure is for men, while acquiescing to it is for women. I don't deny that there may be gender-based differences when it comes to our approaches to sex and what turns us on; however, the answer to this gap cannot simply be to make girls ashamed of sexual curiosity. It cannot be to urge girls to lord the possibility of sex over boys as a way to "obtain" a relationship.
The greatest hypocrisy of the book is one that Wendy Shalit takes up with far more passion: the mistreated, outcast virgins, such as three girls in Rockdale County, Ga., who "reported being isolated from their peers and even harassed for their decisions." I don't know a single person who would support this kind of sexual hierarchy, especially for teenagers; sex should not be glorified as right for all teens (or adults), but the blanket condemnation for it found in Prude is also uncalled for.
Furthermore, Liebau turns around and does the exact same thing she protests against -- casting derision on others for their sexual activity. Liebau opens her final chapter with a quote from Sarah E. Hinlicky's "Subversive Virginity," which states, "So-called sexual freedom is really just proclaiming oneself to be available for free, and therefore without value. To 'choose' such freedom is tantamount to saying that one is worth nothing."
This statement, which Liebau endorses and goes running with, is exactly where most such books and pundits fail. Instead of simply advocating for chastity and/or abstinence, they must cross the line to insist that their way is the Only Way. The rest of us are just coarse and vulgar sluts who are ruining it for those who want to wait (not an exact quote, but, I believe, an accurate paraphrasing).
What's especially sad about this polarization is that plenty of feminists, even of the "do-me" variety, also care passionately about young women's futures. We want women to succeed and gain access to all the educational, political, and workplace opportunities they can. However, I don't think any of us should have to sacrifice our sexuality in order to do so.
Liebau pits those of us who are sex-positive against those who favor abstinence until marriage, and I'm still not sure why we should have to pick a side. I'm not anti-abstinence or anti-abstinence education. I'm against abstinence-only education, which leaves those who are already exploring sex, or are simply curious about it, at a complete loss. But reading Prude, you'd think we have armies of sex-positive feminists like me recruiting teenage gurks to forget their homework, whip off their clothes, and get busy with their boyfriends. If anything, I'd rather give them vibrators so they can learn about pleasuring themselves first.
One of her weakest chapters is on "Do-Me Feminists and Doom-Me Feminism." First, "do-me feminism" was a term coined by Esquire writer Tad Friend way back in 1994, not by the actual feminists themselves. Every wave of feminism has always included discussion, argument, and difference over the role of sexuality within feminism, so there is no party line when it comes to sex (though I proudly count myself amongst the branch of sex-positive feminism). When she harkens back to Seneca Fakks, she pulls a bit of trickery to state that Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton were "hardly champions of sexual promiscuity." Why would they be, at such a time, when they were fighting for the most basic of rights like the right to vote and own property in their names? Meanwhile, she dismisses the highly visionary "free love" advocates Emma Goldman and Victoria Woodhull as simply feminist outcasts, rather than women far, far ahead of their time.
I wish that I could at least conclude that Liebau's heart is in the right place, but I can't. While I share her desire to see young people live out their childhoods without being coerced, by peers or pop culture, into having sex, I can't share in her blanket condemnation of teen sexuality or sexuality in general. Where what she terms "radical feminism" comes in is when we don't just blindly accept studies that show that women who "dress provocatively were perceived as being less intelligent and capable than those who dressed more modestly," but battle those insipid stereotypes. We have to face the fact that there wasn't a universal "good old days." (Liebau decries the existence of teen sex information online, claiming that this "intimate advice ... in an earlier day might have been solicited only in the darkest hallways of the roughest schools -- if there.")
Sex, in and of itself, is not evil. Teenagers have been kissing, petting, making out and "going all the way" for decades, and while they may now be living in a "sex-obsessed culture," it's one we can teach them to navigate by separating fantasy from reality and relegating sex to a role worthy of its stature. It should not be the be-all and end-all of their lives, but it does not have to be treated as something that will immediately taint them.
By the end of Prude, one might almost forget that sex is not just something foisted upon us by consumer culture. It's actually something teenagers and adults are naturally curious about. Yes, they look to pop culture, adults and peers for answers, and certainly there are plenty of ill-suited role models for them. But part of growing up is learning how to synthesize the information presented to you, and every time Liebau criticizes the likes of Britney, Paris, Rhianna and Lil' Kim, she forgets that Elvis was seen as just such a threat in the 1950s.
As someone who is arguably part of Liebau's "sex-obsessed culture," I resent the mischaracterization of that movement. Yet I can see why someone like Liebau, who argues against moral relativism, for religion in public life, and thinks Gossip Girl and Madonna are slutting up our teenagers, the inroads made toward sexual agency for all generations are threatening. As one friend said to me while discussing this book, "Having sex as a teenager saved my life." She was confronted by bullies at school, and took refuge in an affair with an older man. A perfect solution? No. But one that worked for her.
The best I can say about Prude is that it's a pale imitation of several other books that even liberals may find something to appreciate in. Liebau's only preaching to those who are already converted to a narrow-minded, simplistic notion of sexuality, teenagers, and public health. If her goal is to help girls, she'd be better off laying off the shaming and blaming, and instead recognizing that girls today don't have to choose between sex and power -- they know they can have both, and not just in a circumscribed, predetermined Samantha Jones kind of way. Thankfully, despite the likes of Liebau, I don't think moral relativism and sexual self-expression are going anywhere, and I hope teenagers take full advantage of them both.
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Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Dec 14, 2007 1:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Yeah! My aunt Julia worked in a cotton mill at the age of 6. SHE knew how good those days were
Posted by: Beck
» RE: ah the good ol' days
Posted by: munchkinpup
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Posted by: KaptainSpiffy on Dec 14, 2007 4:33 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the only people interested in such writing are those 'believers' anyway. reaffirmation of a differently-principled life, nothing more.
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Posted by: halweiner on Dec 14, 2007 4:48 AM
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THESE are the" good old days." And they are getting
better, not worse. The more education, the more choices,
the more teen agers ( and their up-tight parents and
grandparents) get, the better their lives will be. Ignorance
is not bliss. It is just, in the end, ignorance.
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Posted by: kenhymes on Dec 14, 2007 5:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: commerce combined with sex is a core issue
Posted by: off-the-radar 2
» Yup. And speaking of commerce and sex...
Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle
» RE: commerce combined with sex is a core issue
Posted by: hilaryuk
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Posted by: defrag on Dec 14, 2007 5:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Really? I wonder what planet she grew up on. I was a withdrawn boy from a religious family, but I was certainly a reader. Most of the basics about sex, in the abstract, I figured out by the age of 14 from Ann Landers' newspaper column, the public library, and even my parents' Readers' Digests. Only a very dumb kid would have had a sense that society was conspiring to withhold all that mysterious information.
She might legitimately be concerned about the accuracy of info that teens read now on the Internet, but I suppose she couldn't delve into that in her research without fainting.
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Posted by: VannaLaRoche on Dec 14, 2007 6:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unfortunately, the message many girls are getting is that the route to personal power is through sex appeal and calculated sexual acts (qv. any soap opera vixen). And I don't agree that girls "know they can have both"--far from it. Some girls see their sexuality as the ONLY power they have or ever will have.
Not only that, it's probably the only power they will ever have that is beyond their control and needs no particular genius to project. Nubile women are attractive, period. It's biological.
Every young woman acquires this incredible attractive power--before she may have developed any other talent or skill, and long before she may have made plans for her life.
To a young woman with a poor education and limited options for raising herself out of poverty, the "Pretty Woman" plan may be her only hope, and the sooner she cashes in on it, the better.
And how evil can it be? After all, on a young girl's television set every day and every night are stories of women who parlay their kittenish glances and swinging booty into a perch on top of fabulous wealth and love true-and-eternal. All the girl ever had to be, really, was pretty and just sexual enough.
There's always time for regret and reversal and restoration. You see the redeemed on Oprah all the time, how big a problem can that be?
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Posted by: efpatter on Dec 14, 2007 6:48 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ariel levy has gone head-to-head with these abstinence only morons and emerged the intellectual victor, as anyone could have guessed...
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Posted by: yale on Dec 14, 2007 6:47 AM
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Posted by: Don Garb on Dec 14, 2007 7:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's like the boy stole something that he shouldn't have, and the girl had lost value, given something away that she should have held onto.
I'm sure you can see that even our vocabulary and language idioms are filled with this idea. But I find the concept of "boy-richer girl-poorer" to be so ridiculously stupid, that I feel that no-one needs to exercise their brain coming up with sensible refutation.
The idea is just plain dumb and anyone who subscribes to it is way too stupid to bother with. Just let those retards continue to slobber all over their chastity belts and move on.
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» An excellent post. Some of this chastity backlash is a mode of emotional coping for some women.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: ITA. Some of this chastity backlash is a mode of emotional coping
Posted by: DaBear
» I agree with your post but would add one other thing...
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: wireup on Dec 14, 2007 7:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There was petting and there was necking. The good girls necked (anything from the neck up was okay). The bad girls petted (from the neck down - NOT OK).
Ridiculous? Stupid? Absurd? You bet. Would I ever want to return to such nonsense. No way!
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» Bad to the bone
Posted by: gellero
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Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Dec 14, 2007 9:02 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We can read all the stories about various subject and, more often than not, those who are dissing a given subject are those who are the most ignorant of the truths.
I have no doubt that this one has a hidden agenda borne of frustration and anger from something which she will NEVER admit, especially to herself.
Here is something about guns which is pertinent to this latest rant:
"Why is it that those who are against guns know so little about them?"
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Posted by: donnee on Dec 14, 2007 9:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It took me years to get beyond the feeling of having been victimized due to so many of the reasons already cited, to a more wholesome view of sex, pleasure and personal power.
My wish for all of our young people would be, to be fearlessly awake and involved in their world. Knowing that it is their right to make their own choices about what they do with their bodies and free of shame and guilt. Idealistic? Yep.
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» RE: Taking our "selves" back
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: UnEasyOne on Dec 14, 2007 10:26 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Confronted with irrefutable evidence that the more, earlier and better a child's exposure to sex education, the later the onset of sexual activity and with the fact that abstinence pledges are useless in the prevention of STDs, they desperately seek reassurance that what is obviously counterproductive is nonetheless worthwhile.
The human animal was designed to be obsessed with sex. In fact, the more sexually repressed a society is, the more obsessed with sex that society becomes. It is no fluke, IMO, that societies in which women are required to cover themselves from head to toe also spawn young men willing to murder themselves and as many others as possible for the lure of unlimited sex in the afterlife.
It is ironic that statements such as this quotation from the book: "So-called sexual freedom is really just proclaiming oneself to be available for free, and therefore without value. To 'choose' such freedom is tantamount to saying that one is worth nothing." actually promote the idea that sex should be paid for and women should extract the ultimate price (Marriage) for their consent. Marriage should not be a form of prostitution. Mine is not.
When children reach puberty they are just gonna be horny as hell - trying to turn back that tide by pretending they are still in their infancy is doomed to failure. The notion that exploring sexuality is "robbing them of their childhood' ignores basic human biology. Adolescents are in fact, young adults. By accepting that obvious fact and preparing them to deal with reality rather than an artificial construct based entirely on wishful thinking, we can prepare them to make responsible choices.
Then - whether we like it or not - it's up to them.
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Posted by: morticia on Dec 14, 2007 11:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Decades? How about eons?
The human sex drive is a force of nature. This is why there are almost 7 billion of us. Nature wires us for it, because nature wants sperm and egg to meet, whenever possible and wherever possible. We don't have sex; sex has us. There's no one way to handle this force; with luck, we can bring our personal desires in line with it. Education, education, education.
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» I love it when you talk dirty!!
Posted by: yellow
» RE: I love it when you talk dirty!!
Posted by: morticia
» Dear Morticia.........
Posted by: gellero
» RE: Dear Morticia.........
Posted by: morticia
» We don't have sex, sex has us. Now there's a paradigm!!
Posted by: yellow
» RE: We don't have sex, sex has us. Now there's a paradigm!!
Posted by: morticia
» RE: We don't have sex, sex has us. Now there's a paradigm!!
Posted by: yellow
» RE: We don't have sex, sex has us. Now there's a paradigm!!
Posted by: morticia
» RE: We don't have sex, sex has us. Now there's a paradigm!!
Posted by: yellow
» RE: We don't have sex, sex has us. Now there's a paradigm!!
Posted by: morticia
» P.S.
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Dec 14, 2007 11:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and worse yet, the "slutty" girls are the free thinkers, the authority challengers, the ones who ask "why?" when confronted by authority and gender-imposed restrictions. This clearly will not do! How else can we ever establish God's Own True Vision in this country? No way if we have these types around, challenging the minister and the family male patriarch-boss.
After all it was these types of loose FREE THINKING (emphasize those last two words!) women who were behind the Woman's Suffrage and Women's Rights Movement! (what nonsense..women's rights?!?.. a DANGEROUS idea!)
Come to think of it, those free thinking slutty women also played a prominent role in the abolition of Negro Slavery. Another danger stemming from these slutty loose women! The very idea that "coloreds" were somehow actually human and deserving of equal rights!
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» RE: slutty bad girls have messed things up
Posted by: basinjasin
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Posted by: Belegandir on Dec 14, 2007 11:55 AM
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» I completely agree. The author needs to get laid. Pronto. nt
Posted by: ssdd
» Sexually Repressed
Posted by: Jo1028
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Posted by: morticia on Dec 14, 2007 12:39 PM
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Just because words printed on paper are enclosed between two covers doesn't mean the result is a "book." Here's an actual book, and the perfect antidote to PRUDE. It's LADY CHATTERLY'S LOVER, by D.H. Lawrence. Hot, hot, hot, and best of all, written by a genius. Read it when I was 12, and never looked back.
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» RE: The book was regarded as straight up porn during the victorian age, no?
Posted by: morticia
» RE: The book was regarded as straight up porn during the victorian age, no?
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Dec 14, 2007 12:51 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Hamster dick
Posted by: stina723
» RE: Hamster dick
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Hamster dick
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» squeals of delight
Posted by: zooeyhall
» RE: And Now People!!
Posted by: Stoney 12+1
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Posted by: Ahimsa on Dec 14, 2007 3:07 PM
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It is between our legs, and it talks to us. To all of us.
We can repress it, ignore it (yeah, right) or live double lives (Hi Senator...!)
Or we can enkoy it, learn about it and be happy.
Are these people sexual psychos, because as far as I know, when speaking of nature, the only sexual aberration is abstinence...
The medieval invention of sex as sin has been an effective tool of fear and mass domination for enough time now. When do we come to our senses? When do we demolish this idiocy?
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» RE: Idiocy - I think it was Oscar Wilde who said
Posted by: UnEasyOne
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Posted by: wwittman on Dec 14, 2007 3:17 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
so big shock.. they STILL hate sex
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» Puritan does not Equal "Pure"
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» RE: Fear, Not Hate
Posted by: Jo1028
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Posted by: dudelette on Dec 14, 2007 4:10 PM
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I don't really find this surprising. Raging hormones, curious kids with no sex education beyond what they might have seen among the animals in the barn, and these sames kids with not much to do besides work and church, often add up to sexual behavior. And babies on the way lead to quick marriages. Of course, this also means that these kids stay in the communities, become farmers themselves, bring up their children the same way, and forward unto the next generation. Community continuity and status quo tied to the sexual control of teenagers. Nothing changes.
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» RE: Genealogical Discoveries about Teenage Sex
Posted by: SalB
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Posted by: Kym525 on Dec 14, 2007 4:41 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, has there ever been this level of prudishness ever ascribed to the sexualization of young boys? Of course not. Men have the "right" to have rampaging libidos. Women do not. So-called "proud prudes" seldom, if ever address the fact that our society denigrates male virginity, even questioning their sexuality--if you're not doing it you must be gay. Why would any boy when faced with unrealistic expectations ever admit to being a virgin? Maybe what they should be doing is creating a safe space for boys and men who have made the conscious choice to be celibate--regardless of belief system.
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» RE: Gender bias once again rears its ugly head
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: LeaveMeAlone on Dec 14, 2007 7:09 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It depends on the woman
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: It depends on the woman
Posted by: morticia
» Virgin???
Posted by: gellero
» RE: Virgin??? - Wasn't exactly lookin for a virgin
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: It depends on the woman
Posted by: Knot_Rich
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Posted by: gellero on Dec 14, 2007 11:51 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: TRAINING
Posted by: donnee
» Obvious
Posted by: gellero
» RE: TRAINING
Posted by: morticia
» P.S.
Posted by: morticia
» Never had the pleasure
Posted by: gellero
» RE: Never had the pleasure
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: talkville on Dec 15, 2007 1:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anything to maintain the prosperity of the few based on the misery of the many. Perhaps some wily feminist might arrange a meeting between the author of this book and Mr. O'Reilly of Fox news in the hopes they may hit it off and abscond together to Bermuda, there to disappear in mutual bliss and virtuous exaltation!
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» RULING CLASSES....
Posted by: gellero
» RE: ULING CLASSES....
Posted by: talkville
» Ho Hummm..............
Posted by: gellero
» RE: Ho Hummm..............
Posted by: talkville
» RE: ULING CLASSES....Some of the most beautiful girls I have known
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: ULING CLASSES....Some of the most beautiful girls I have known
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: ankhet on Dec 15, 2007 10:08 AM
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Maybe Coulter can help...but in a totally non-homo way of course...maybe a jellied salad.
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Posted by: yellow on Dec 15, 2007 7:17 PM
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Posted by: A.M.Bishop on Jan 5, 2008 10:40 PM
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Posted by: undrgrndgirl on Dec 14, 2007 1:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Yeah! My aunt Julia worked in a cotton mill at the age of 6. SHE knew how good those days were
Posted by: Beck
» RE: ah the good ol' days
Posted by: munchkinpup
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Posted by: KaptainSpiffy on Dec 14, 2007 4:33 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the only people interested in such writing are those 'believers' anyway. reaffirmation of a differently-principled life, nothing more.
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Posted by: halweiner on Dec 14, 2007 4:48 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
THESE are the" good old days." And they are getting
better, not worse. The more education, the more choices,
the more teen agers ( and their up-tight parents and
grandparents) get, the better their lives will be. Ignorance
is not bliss. It is just, in the end, ignorance.
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Posted by: kenhymes on Dec 14, 2007 5:55 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: commerce combined with sex is a core issue
Posted by: off-the-radar 2
» Yup. And speaking of commerce and sex...
Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle
» RE: commerce combined with sex is a core issue
Posted by: hilaryuk
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Posted by: defrag on Dec 14, 2007 5:57 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Really? I wonder what planet she grew up on. I was a withdrawn boy from a religious family, but I was certainly a reader. Most of the basics about sex, in the abstract, I figured out by the age of 14 from Ann Landers' newspaper column, the public library, and even my parents' Readers' Digests. Only a very dumb kid would have had a sense that society was conspiring to withhold all that mysterious information.
She might legitimately be concerned about the accuracy of info that teens read now on the Internet, but I suppose she couldn't delve into that in her research without fainting.
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Posted by: VannaLaRoche on Dec 14, 2007 6:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unfortunately, the message many girls are getting is that the route to personal power is through sex appeal and calculated sexual acts (qv. any soap opera vixen). And I don't agree that girls "know they can have both"--far from it. Some girls see their sexuality as the ONLY power they have or ever will have.
Not only that, it's probably the only power they will ever have that is beyond their control and needs no particular genius to project. Nubile women are attractive, period. It's biological.
Every young woman acquires this incredible attractive power--before she may have developed any other talent or skill, and long before she may have made plans for her life.
To a young woman with a poor education and limited options for raising herself out of poverty, the "Pretty Woman" plan may be her only hope, and the sooner she cashes in on it, the better.
And how evil can it be? After all, on a young girl's television set every day and every night are stories of women who parlay their kittenish glances and swinging booty into a perch on top of fabulous wealth and love true-and-eternal. All the girl ever had to be, really, was pretty and just sexual enough.
There's always time for regret and reversal and restoration. You see the redeemed on Oprah all the time, how big a problem can that be?
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Posted by: efpatter on Dec 14, 2007 6:48 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ariel levy has gone head-to-head with these abstinence only morons and emerged the intellectual victor, as anyone could have guessed...
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Posted by: yale on Dec 14, 2007 6:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Don Garb on Dec 14, 2007 7:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's like the boy stole something that he shouldn't have, and the girl had lost value, given something away that she should have held onto.
I'm sure you can see that even our vocabulary and language idioms are filled with this idea. But I find the concept of "boy-richer girl-poorer" to be so ridiculously stupid, that I feel that no-one needs to exercise their brain coming up with sensible refutation.
The idea is just plain dumb and anyone who subscribes to it is way too stupid to bother with. Just let those retards continue to slobber all over their chastity belts and move on.
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» An excellent post. Some of this chastity backlash is a mode of emotional coping for some women.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: ITA. Some of this chastity backlash is a mode of emotional coping
Posted by: DaBear
» I agree with your post but would add one other thing...
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: wireup on Dec 14, 2007 7:49 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There was petting and there was necking. The good girls necked (anything from the neck up was okay). The bad girls petted (from the neck down - NOT OK).
Ridiculous? Stupid? Absurd? You bet. Would I ever want to return to such nonsense. No way!
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» Bad to the bone
Posted by: gellero
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Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Dec 14, 2007 9:02 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We can read all the stories about various subject and, more often than not, those who are dissing a given subject are those who are the most ignorant of the truths.
I have no doubt that this one has a hidden agenda borne of frustration and anger from something which she will NEVER admit, especially to herself.
Here is something about guns which is pertinent to this latest rant:
"Why is it that those who are against guns know so little about them?"
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Posted by: donnee on Dec 14, 2007 9:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It took me years to get beyond the feeling of having been victimized due to so many of the reasons already cited, to a more wholesome view of sex, pleasure and personal power.
My wish for all of our young people would be, to be fearlessly awake and involved in their world. Knowing that it is their right to make their own choices about what they do with their bodies and free of shame and guilt. Idealistic? Yep.
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» RE: Taking our "selves" back
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: UnEasyOne on Dec 14, 2007 10:26 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Confronted with irrefutable evidence that the more, earlier and better a child's exposure to sex education, the later the onset of sexual activity and with the fact that abstinence pledges are useless in the prevention of STDs, they desperately seek reassurance that what is obviously counterproductive is nonetheless worthwhile.
The human animal was designed to be obsessed with sex. In fact, the more sexually repressed a society is, the more obsessed with sex that society becomes. It is no fluke, IMO, that societies in which women are required to cover themselves from head to toe also spawn young men willing to murder themselves and as many others as possible for the lure of unlimited sex in the afterlife.
It is ironic that statements such as this quotation from the book: "So-called sexual freedom is really just proclaiming oneself to be available for free, and therefore without value. To 'choose' such freedom is tantamount to saying that one is worth nothing." actually promote the idea that sex should be paid for and women should extract the ultimate price (Marriage) for their consent. Marriage should not be a form of prostitution. Mine is not.
When children reach puberty they are just gonna be horny as hell - trying to turn back that tide by pretending they are still in their infancy is doomed to failure. The notion that exploring sexuality is "robbing them of their childhood' ignores basic human biology. Adolescents are in fact, young adults. By accepting that obvious fact and preparing them to deal with reality rather than an artificial construct based entirely on wishful thinking, we can prepare them to make responsible choices.
Then - whether we like it or not - it's up to them.
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Posted by: morticia on Dec 14, 2007 11:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Decades? How about eons?
The human sex drive is a force of nature. This is why there are almost 7 billion of us. Nature wires us for it, because nature wants sperm and egg to meet, whenever possible and wherever possible. We don't have sex; sex has us. There's no one way to handle this force; with luck, we can bring our personal desires in line with it. Education, education, education.
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» I love it when you talk dirty!!
Posted by: yellow
» RE: I love it when you talk dirty!!
Posted by: morticia
» Dear Morticia.........
Posted by: gellero
» RE: Dear Morticia.........
Posted by: morticia
» We don't have sex, sex has us. Now there's a paradigm!!
Posted by: yellow
» RE: We don't have sex, sex has us. Now there's a paradigm!!
Posted by: morticia
» RE: We don't have sex, sex has us. Now there's a paradigm!!
Posted by: yellow
» RE: We don't have sex, sex has us. Now there's a paradigm!!
Posted by: morticia
» RE: We don't have sex, sex has us. Now there's a paradigm!!
Posted by: yellow
» RE: We don't have sex, sex has us. Now there's a paradigm!!
Posted by: morticia
» P.S.
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Dec 14, 2007 11:41 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and worse yet, the "slutty" girls are the free thinkers, the authority challengers, the ones who ask "why?" when confronted by authority and gender-imposed restrictions. This clearly will not do! How else can we ever establish God's Own True Vision in this country? No way if we have these types around, challenging the minister and the family male patriarch-boss.
After all it was these types of loose FREE THINKING (emphasize those last two words!) women who were behind the Woman's Suffrage and Women's Rights Movement! (what nonsense..women's rights?!?.. a DANGEROUS idea!)
Come to think of it, those free thinking slutty women also played a prominent role in the abolition of Negro Slavery. Another danger stemming from these slutty loose women! The very idea that "coloreds" were somehow actually human and deserving of equal rights!
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» RE: slutty bad girls have messed things up
Posted by: basinjasin
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Posted by: Belegandir on Dec 14, 2007 11:55 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» I completely agree. The author needs to get laid. Pronto. nt
Posted by: ssdd
» Sexually Repressed
Posted by: Jo1028
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Posted by: morticia on Dec 14, 2007 12:39 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just because words printed on paper are enclosed between two covers doesn't mean the result is a "book." Here's an actual book, and the perfect antidote to PRUDE. It's LADY CHATTERLY'S LOVER, by D.H. Lawrence. Hot, hot, hot, and best of all, written by a genius. Read it when I was 12, and never looked back.
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» RE: The book was regarded as straight up porn during the victorian age, no?
Posted by: morticia
» RE: The book was regarded as straight up porn during the victorian age, no?
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: zooeyhall on Dec 14, 2007 12:51 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Hamster dick
Posted by: stina723
» RE: Hamster dick
Posted by: morticia
» RE: Hamster dick
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» squeals of delight
Posted by: zooeyhall
» RE: And Now People!!
Posted by: Stoney 12+1
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Posted by: Ahimsa on Dec 14, 2007 3:07 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is between our legs, and it talks to us. To all of us.
We can repress it, ignore it (yeah, right) or live double lives (Hi Senator...!)
Or we can enkoy it, learn about it and be happy.
Are these people sexual psychos, because as far as I know, when speaking of nature, the only sexual aberration is abstinence...
The medieval invention of sex as sin has been an effective tool of fear and mass domination for enough time now. When do we come to our senses? When do we demolish this idiocy?
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» RE: Idiocy - I think it was Oscar Wilde who said
Posted by: UnEasyOne
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Posted by: wwittman on Dec 14, 2007 3:17 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
so big shock.. they STILL hate sex
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» Puritan does not Equal "Pure"
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» RE: Fear, Not Hate
Posted by: Jo1028
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Posted by: dudelette on Dec 14, 2007 4:10 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't really find this surprising. Raging hormones, curious kids with no sex education beyond what they might have seen among the animals in the barn, and these sames kids with not much to do besides work and church, often add up to sexual behavior. And babies on the way lead to quick marriages. Of course, this also means that these kids stay in the communities, become farmers themselves, bring up their children the same way, and forward unto the next generation. Community continuity and status quo tied to the sexual control of teenagers. Nothing changes.
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» RE: Genealogical Discoveries about Teenage Sex
Posted by: SalB
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Posted by: Kym525 on Dec 14, 2007 4:41 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
However, has there ever been this level of prudishness ever ascribed to the sexualization of young boys? Of course not. Men have the "right" to have rampaging libidos. Women do not. So-called "proud prudes" seldom, if ever address the fact that our society denigrates male virginity, even questioning their sexuality--if you're not doing it you must be gay. Why would any boy when faced with unrealistic expectations ever admit to being a virgin? Maybe what they should be doing is creating a safe space for boys and men who have made the conscious choice to be celibate--regardless of belief system.
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» RE: Gender bias once again rears its ugly head
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: LeaveMeAlone on Dec 14, 2007 7:09 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: It depends on the woman
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: It depends on the woman
Posted by: morticia
» Virgin???
Posted by: gellero
» RE: Virgin??? - Wasn't exactly lookin for a virgin
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: It depends on the woman
Posted by: Knot_Rich
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Posted by: gellero on Dec 14, 2007 11:51 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: TRAINING
Posted by: donnee
» Obvious
Posted by: gellero
» RE: TRAINING
Posted by: morticia
» P.S.
Posted by: morticia
» Never had the pleasure
Posted by: gellero
» RE: Never had the pleasure
Posted by: morticia
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Posted by: talkville on Dec 15, 2007 1:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anything to maintain the prosperity of the few based on the misery of the many. Perhaps some wily feminist might arrange a meeting between the author of this book and Mr. O'Reilly of Fox news in the hopes they may hit it off and abscond together to Bermuda, there to disappear in mutual bliss and virtuous exaltation!
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» RULING CLASSES....
Posted by: gellero
» RE: ULING CLASSES....
Posted by: talkville
» Ho Hummm..............
Posted by: gellero
» RE: Ho Hummm..............
Posted by: talkville
» RE: ULING CLASSES....Some of the most beautiful girls I have known
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: ULING CLASSES....Some of the most beautiful girls I have known
Posted by: talkville
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Posted by: ankhet on Dec 15, 2007 10:08 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe Coulter can help...but in a totally non-homo way of course...maybe a jellied salad.
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Posted by: yellow on Dec 15, 2007 7:17 PM
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Posted by: A.M.Bishop on Jan 5, 2008 10:40 PM
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