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Destruction of CIA Tapes Can't Hide Barbaric U.S. Torture Methods

By Ray McGovern, Consortium News. Posted December 13, 2007.


The Bush administration reeks of war crimes. It's time to stop brutal forms of torture dating back to the Spanish Inquisition.

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A boyish, inquisitive face with an innocent look peered out from the Washington Post's lead story Tuesday on torture. It was well-groomed, pink-shirted John Kiriakou, a CIA interrogator who could just as easily pass for the local youth minister.

The report by the Post's Joby Warrick and Dan Eggen, which describes Kiriakou's experience in interrogating suspected terrorists, raises in an unusually direct way an abiding question: Should the United States of America be using forms of torture dating back to the Spanish Inquisition?

Nowhere is the mood of that infamous period better portrayed than in the famous Grand Inquisitor chapter of Dostoyevsky's Brothers Karamazov. Dostoevsky was unusually gifted at plumbing the human heart. While it has been 127 years since he wrote Brothers Karamazov, he nonetheless captures the trap into which so many Americans have fallen in forfeiting freedom through fear. His portrayal of Inquisition reality brings us to the brink of the moral precipice on which our country teeters today. It is as though he knew what would be in store for us as fear was artificially stoked after the attacks of 9/11.

In the story, Dostoevsky's grand inquisitor (the cardinal of Seville) ridicules Christ for imposing on humans the heavy burden of freedom of conscience and explains how it is far better, for all concerned, to dull that conscience and to rule by deceit, violence and fear:

"Didst thou forget that man prefers peace, and even death, to freedom of choice in the knowledge of good and evil? ... We teach them that it's not the free judgment of their hearts, but mystery which they must follow blindly, even against their conscience. ... In the end they will lay their freedom at our feet [and] become obedient. ...We shall tell them that we are Thy servants and rule them in Thy name ... we shall be forced to lie ... We shall tell them that every sin will be expiated if it is done with our permission." The Grand Inquisitor, in Brothers Karamazov

Kiriakou was one of the first interrogators to interview suspected terrorist Abu Zubayda in a Pakistani military hospital, where Zubayda was recovering from wounds suffered during his capture in early 2002. When he refused to provide information about al-Qaeda's infrastructure, he was flown to a secret CIA prison where, according to Kiriakou, the interrogation team strapped Abu Zubayda to a board, wrapped his nose and mouth in cellophane, and forced water into his throat. In just 35 seconds, viola! Abu Zubayda starting talking. That is called waterboarding.

The 15th and 16th century Spanish inquisitors were not squeamish and had little need for the circumlocutions or euphemisms like "alternative set of procedures" that are part of President George W. Bush's lexicon. The Spanish called this procedure, quite plainly, "tortura del agua." Lacking cellophane, they inserted a cloth into the victim's mouth, forcing the victim to ingest water spilled from a jar, starting the drowning process. Four centuries later, the Gestapo put out several technically improved releases of this operating system of torture, so to speak.

Quick, someone please tell newly confirmed Attorney General Michael Mukasey, who told reporters yesterday he still cannot decide whether waterboarding is torture.

Abu Zubayda: poster child

The information from John Kiriakou confirms what has long been a no-brainer but not definitively established before; namely, that President George W. Bush's "alternative set of procedures" for interrogation by the CIA includes waterboarding. Zubayda was given pride of place in George W. Bush's remarkable speech of Sept. 6, 2006, in which he bragged about the effectiveness of such procedures and appealed successfully for passage of the Military Commissions Act. That law allows a president to define what set of interrogation procedures can be used by the C.I.A. This is Bush on Sept. 6, 2006:

We believe that Zubayda was a senior terrorist leader and a trusted associate of Osama bin Laden ... [and that] he had run a terrorist camp in Afghanistan where some of the 9/11 hijackers trained ...We knew that Zubayda had more information that could save innocent lives, but he stopped talking ... And so the CIA used an alternative set of procedures ... The Department of Justice reviewed the authorized methods extensively and determined them to be lawful. ... But I can say the procedures were tough, and they were safe, and lawful, and necessary.

Zubayda was questioned using these procedures, and soon he began to provide information on key al-Qaeda operatives, including information that helped us find and capture more of those responsible for the attacks on September the 11th. For example, Zubayda identified one of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's accomplices in the 9/11 attacks -- a terrorist named Ramzi bin al Shibh. The information Zubayda provided helped lead to the capture of bin al Shibh. And together these two terrorists provided information that helped in the planning and execution of the operation that captured Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

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Former CIA analyst Ray McGovern is co-founder of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity.

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View:
What do you expect from a criminal governement...?
Posted by: chomsky on Dec 13, 2007 1:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What do you expect from a criminal governement...?
Destruction of incriminating tapes.
Destruction of 10 millions of incriminating emails.
Criminal activities hiding behind "state Secret" and "War on Terrorism"
Etc...

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» RE: ALL RHETORIC Posted by: edgar_michel
Torture is torture
Posted by: vox persona on Dec 13, 2007 1:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bu$hCo has turned this country from the 'land of the free and home of the brave', to 'land of torture and home of hegemonic imperialism'. Boy emperor has done more to harm this country through his policies than any one president in history. Hopefully, sometime in the future there is a war crimes tribunal with these cretins' names on it. We must regain our dignity, our image in the world and the concepts this nation was founded upon. (For you cynics, no I'm not talking about genocide, slavery and suppression of women's rights).

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» RE: Torture is torture Posted by: xi_people
All We Knuckle-heads
Posted by: talkville on Dec 13, 2007 1:08 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We're so head-strong, obstinate and passe' using such old and musty terms like "torture"!! Don't we know that the new and improved term is "interrogation techniques"?? We should all 'get with the Program' and get 'up to speed' with this Grand New Way of Using Language.

Why "every-thing changed after 9/11/01" including language and it's uses and references to reality. Roll over Torquemada, we got Public Relations now!! And it's Privatized to boot and well-equipped with Technological Magic.

Watch how in this magical Information- and Knowledge-based Economy: entire Categories are transformed: Torture has become Unpleasantness.

-- a Knuckle-head.

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The Land of Bush
Posted by: Tom Degan on Dec 13, 2007 5:21 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is there anyone out there who is still foolish enough to buy anything this medicine show of an administration is trying to sell? Anyone? Anyone? Stand up and be counted.

George W. Bush is a war criminal. This can no longer be classified as mere speculation. This is a documented, undeniable fact.

That being the case, is is up to us (as in Weeda Peeple) to stand up and demand that this crorrupt, hideous, half-witted little piece of shit be prosecuted for his crimes agains humanity and sent to federal prison for the rest of his fucking life.

Is that a treasonous, un-American thing to say? Not at all. In fact it is a very patriotic thing to say. The total and complete failure of the Bush administration is the best thing that could possibly happen for the people of the United States of America. Your president is corrupt. He is a criminal. You want him to fail. You want him rendered impotant. You don't want him to do any more damage to your beloved country. The damage that he has done thus far is so immense, it will never be acurately assessed - IT IS INCALCULABLE. Your great-great grandchildren, who will never even know your name, will still be paying off the debt - in money and lost honor - rung up by George Dubya Bush during his twisted reign of failure, corruption and absurdity. The complete and utter destruction of the Bush White House is the only thing that will provide America its ultimate salvation. The only thing

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
Spin, Smoke and Mirrors

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» RE: sad, but true Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: The Land of Bush Posted by: donl51
» RE: The Land of Bush Posted by: Basenjis
» RE: The Land of Bush Posted by: EncinoM
Respect fo the USA's openness
Posted by: tonyf69 on Dec 13, 2007 5:23 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think I can say with confidence that probably every conflict the world has ever know has involved torture in some degree. Torture is part of conflict.

However, I believe that for the first time in history, the use of torture has been admitted to by a world power and is being addressed by it's Government.

There is much about the USA and the 'West' in general with which I do not agree, but I admire the US Government's openness about torture and the American people's concerns and willingness to oppose it's use (at least by their forces). THIS is the kind of leadership the world needs, leadership by example.

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» RE: Apologist: I apologize Posted by: Ripcord
» Hey, wait a minute... Posted by: greenman
» RE: Hey, wait a minute... Posted by: tonyf69
» RE: Tony, you're too nice Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Tony, you're too nice Posted by: tonyf69
» A joke, right? Posted by: wireup
It was Nixon who approved of the CIA but the Democrats to this day won't ABOLISH it !
Posted by: maxpayne on Dec 13, 2007 5:52 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Left should be getting their butts together and working to ABOLISH THE CIA instead of writing another “yeah, we know” article ! Besides, go fucking figure ! The CIA built, trained, armed Osama and his gang of terrorists and networks. Just look at the trouble making that’s been going on in Afghanistan, India, Turkey, etc … and then understand that IGNORANCE in the West (yes America and Europe included) is what led to this fucking mess ! The author might as well wait for pigs to fly because the Democratic leadership is just as complicit and corrupt as the GOP !

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those oaths...
Posted by: somegirl on Dec 13, 2007 6:04 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What about the solemn oath they all take to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic? Should not that oath transcend and govern others that an administration might require for access to secret materials?

exactly. they are traitors, as is the entire bushco apparatus that has hijacked our country. when will we wake up to the fact that america doesn't exist anymore. when it was declared "the homeland" anyone with an ounce of sense knew that the nazi playbook was being initiated to replace the constitution. and the dems just let the insane right roll over them.

i am disgusted, sad and afraid.

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» RE: those oaths... Posted by: Tom Degan
» RE: those oaths... Posted by: Turiye
Business of America
Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Dec 13, 2007 6:22 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Government crime, corporate crime aka "white collar," street crime, insider trading, hostile takeovers, you name it......its what we are about and the CIA is the heart of the monster we have created and refuse to slay. Consider these patriots, each of whom served as Director: Porter Goss; George Tenet; John Deutch; James Woolsey; Robert M. Gates; William Webster; William Casey; Adm. Stansfield Turner and, oh yes, George H.W. Bush, et al. Now, you should feel very secure and comfy with your "Teddy" bear and "blankie" at night knowing that we now have USAF rollover guy Hayden at the helm. Good luck Amurikur!

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Another Day of Infamy
Posted by: Abe on Dec 13, 2007 6:23 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ANOTHER "DAY OF INFAMY"
March 20, 2003

An unprovoked attack in Forty-one
That some say, could have been prevented
Sadly, now we have another one
From lies our Government invented.

We are coming on five years of War
More than forty-three hundred killed
Just so, as some say, the Pres's wishes
For his vain revenge, could be fulfilled.

There's untold numbers of wounded
Some of body and some in mind
Each day a "Day of Infamy"
In War of an unnecessary kind.

And now there's more sabre rattling
To get us in yet, another fight
By those warmongers in DC
Where good sense has taken flight.

They will bankrupt our Country
And leave debts our children must pay
They've ruined our credibility
And what was, “The American Way”.

How did we let them do this to us
As they ignore our Constitution?
If we don't try to stop them now
There can be, but one resolution!

We'll go the way of other Nations
Who fell to Government's aggression
With apathy and fear and silence
As their Rights fell to oppression.

Some think it is unpatriotic
To speak with a critical word
But, be careful that, that, “Freedom of Speech”
Won't be the last, that you've heard!

If we don't change our heading
Then, one more, "Day of Infamy"
Will be the downfall of our Nation
The end of, "The Land of the Free"!

Del "Abe" Jones
12.06.2007

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» RE: Another Day of Infamy Posted by: Basenjis
I love that "second oath" part, the one overriding "so help me God"
Posted by: channing on Dec 13, 2007 6:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Harman complained recently that when she was ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee some of the material (on interrogations) was so highly classified that she had to take a "second oath" to protect it."

That second oath went something like this:

I Jane Harmon, Nancy Pelosi, Dick Durbin, Jay Rockefeller, Bob Graham, do solemnly agree, to Lay Down My First Oath Of Office, and to Protect Government Crimes, So Help Me Black-Op Mercenaries and Off Shore Perks.

It's called the "Lie or Die" oath... Good for Goebbel, Good for Traitors.

Great write up by Ray, one Very Sane Veteran Intelligence Professional... And thank you to others still Inside who "Hold these truths to be self-evident"!

Where there is conscience, there is Liberty and Justice for All, and this current attempted Coup on the United States is the Fight of our Lives, but worth every breath... so help me God!

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» RE:dbl thumbs up Posted by: channing
generals advice not heeded
Posted by: particle61 on Dec 13, 2007 7:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the use of torture by the bush administration is really symptomatic of the type of small minded fascism that bush and his masters and minions trade in.

As with everything else, gwbush ignores the US military itself on torture, because they, of course, know better. redstateupdate.net reported on the study released by the Intelligence Science Board of the Defense Intelligence College (Unquestioned Interrogation Methods Yield Questionable Results- issue number 87) Where army psychologists revealed that there are "almost no empirical studies (that) directly address the effectiveness of interrogation in general practice," and importantly, "aside from the value of information achieved by torturing captives, coercive interrogation tactics have very real 'costs…in human, ethical (and) political' terms that must be acknowledged." That's from the people who actually fight wars (not simply start them). And they didn't listen before the illegal occupation of Iraq either...

The pattern is clear- detention with no trial, or even charges being filed against the 'detainee'; kidnappings from the streets of other countries by US agents; the use of widespread warrantless wiretapping in the US; declarations by the president the he assumes total control in any vaguely defined 'national emergency'- and we have seen it over and over again through history- small minded tyrants have always run their criminal fiefdoms in the same fashion...

www.redstateupdate.net has reported on renditions, black site prisons, domestic surveillance, torture (whether in GITMO or in US cities) and the dangerous boobs, fundamentalists and petty tyrants who run the show with humor and prescience since 2005.

Bush said it best himself...
"tyrants and would-be tyrants have always claimed that murder is justified to serve their
grand vision"--you are sooooo right georgie boy!
see verbatim comic-
http://www.redstateupdate.net/verbatim/v6-1.html

'the truth never damages a just cause' gandhi

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Ultimate torture film
Posted by: grahamhgreen on Dec 13, 2007 7:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
http://thetorturer.com

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Obsolete techniques
Posted by: ankhet on Dec 13, 2007 8:00 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Should the United States of America be using forms of torture dating back to the Spanish Inquisition?"

What century would you prefer?

Of course, I know it's rhetorical, but what will you DO? - You'll whine and complain, rail and storm, and then?...Anyway, it's The Season, so the whole issue will have to wait.

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» RE: Obsolete techniques Posted by: ALANHESTER
Thank you
Posted by: libertyferall on Dec 13, 2007 8:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thank you for taking such a strong stance against the use of torture. It must stop... it must.

Pay heed my fellow Americans! So long as you tolerate the use of torture, this country pursues the path to perdition.

What will it take to stop the use of torture, the growth of the military, and the pursuit of wars by the U.S.? Nothing less than a spiritual evolution of consciousness that manifests in people individually and collectively refusing to support a government that harms people, instead creating a new and different society built on trust, caring, and service within the context of connection to all people of the world and all of creation.

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» RE: Thank you, libertyferall. Posted by: Basenjis
A Most Serious Crime
Posted by: QQOblivion on Dec 13, 2007 8:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Torture is second only to murder as a crime against a person's physical being. The torturers, as the murderers, want total control over others. They are sadists, they are monsters. They are evil, period. (No amount of rationalizing can change that fact.)
Why are Americans even discussing the "merits" of torture today in the 21st Century? I thought such questions were beyond academic. They used to be. The answer was once obvious. Torture was once considered a most horrendous evil. Now it is just an unreliable means to an end.
Those who would torture surely have become the very devil itself. Can America EVER be forgiven? I doubt it.

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» RE: A Most Serious Crime Posted by: ALANHESTER
americans are not better than that
Posted by: caru on Dec 13, 2007 10:35 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
uh ... genocide of the people of the americas???

that is the basis of this GRRRRREAT country.

we need TRUTH IN RECONCILIATION WITH THE INDIGINEOUS PEOPLES OF THE AMERICAS, before we can even get to the point where we can see the present clearly. toture and genocide will continue in the name of americans ... it has always been the case, why be different now?

the haze of genocide and mass manipulation really has this whole planet confused about what is what. who has ethics. who has values.

the only way to get to equality and fairness is a frank and clear view of life on this planet. this can only happen if the real 'secret rulers of the world' are exposed and offered restoration and healing.

please search: The Secret Rulers of the World on youtube.

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The fascist shift is surely establishing it's goals, step by step.
Posted by: common intelligence on Dec 13, 2007 10:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here again, even without Brown shirts, the relentless establishing of underhanded fascist methods are bent on controlling our freedoms and ability to hear what we want, say what we want to say, and freely dabate the issues of our time.

Everyday almost, the truth is self evident. Just days ago the CIA destroyed prime evidence. News that would put another nail is GWBs coffin. SO let'sjust see where this will go and what it will amount to.

Now there is a prime bill on the senate floor going to be voted on about letting off the "Telcoms" for breaking the law in supporting Bush's domestic spying game plan. But will YOU Contact Diane Feinstein and tell her to support Senators Dodd's filibuster? probably not.

Then there is HR1955 aka: SB1959 coming up too.
Better get on it. This is serious sh*t.
Better keep up with what we can affect, folks. This nation is slipping faster than we can keep up with these bastards

Come on you people. You're not screaming load enough. What do we have to do, Beat the fascists up in the streets?

If that's what it takes! "They'll not take over my country without a fight". Are you with me? or with the Domestic pirates?

You, the military, that have vowed to to protect our nation form ALL enemies both foreign and DOMESTIC, WAKE UP!
YOU ARE THE ONES THAT MUST NOT FAIL US.
YOU MUST NOT BE DECEIVED ANY LONGER.

PROTECTING AMERICA STARTS AT HOME.

That's what we are doing with out uniforms. We are the true patriots here within the belly of the beast. Fighting to preserve the union against these domestic pirates that are systematically chewing up our country.

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dear Americans
Posted by: anchoorite on Dec 13, 2007 10:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm really baffled. I have a question for you:

Why is Bush still in the White House?

Surely after all the scandals, one would expect some accountability from the Greates Country in the World?

So, why?

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» RE: dear Americans Posted by: luzmejor
» RE: dear Americans Posted by: somegirl
» RE: dear Americans Posted by: channing
» RE: dear Americans Posted by: talkville
torture,corruption,shock doctrine
Posted by: cwilsondrum on Dec 13, 2007 11:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is it my imagination,or is Ted Kosinski(unibomber) starting to look like a sane man?

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Don't let them get away with it
Posted by: Democritus on Dec 13, 2007 11:20 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dana Perino, Bush's new Secretary of Press Lying, keeps up the mantra that "enhanced" interrogation techniques have actually saved lives. She shouldn't be allowed to get away with it. Members of the press should simply ask her, "Just how many lives were saved, and whose were they?" What Perino and the White House feeding her these lines hide behind is the fact that you can't prove a negative; that is, you can't prove how many people were not killed by our use of waterboarding and other torture techniques. In a similar way you can't prove how many murders were prevented by the so-called deterrent effect of capital punishment.

What anyone skilled in logic should respond when faced with Perino's fallacious form of reasoning is simply to say that there is no way of telling whether any lives were saved at all; and that unless one can give evidence showing who was saved, and how, there is no reason to believe what Ms. Perino or her handlers are saying. Once this form of argument is refuted, there are no grounds whatsoever for using waterboarding as an interogation tool.

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» RE: Perino and Press charade Posted by: Ripcord
» RE: Perino and Press charade Posted by: Democritus
» The missing factor Posted by: vox persona
Torture will destroy us
Posted by: sarahk on Dec 13, 2007 11:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I heard that our military was going to place detained Iraqis in Abu Garib prison, I knew that much unnecessary death and hurt were about to happen. That prison was especially constructed and modified by Saddam's regime with torture in mind. Hooks were built into cell ceilings as a convenience for easy stringing-up of prisoners, torture equipment was everywhere, and special cells of 3'x5'-6' were available for containment of Saddam's political prisoners. The only reason I could think of for us to detain people there would be that we wanted easy access to Saddam's torture devices.
More than anything, I think this signaled to Iraqis that we were nothing but a new tyrant- interested in maintaining our power at any cost.
Although we know the cost to the Iraqis of our pro-torture policy, I think that the cost to us is just beginning. Torturers bring their violent practices home to their families. Often, they have come to enjoy the sense of over-weaning power that torture brings them and will go on to abuse and terrify their families.
While some who have tortured for America are sadist, the sad truth is that most are everyday people like you and me.
The problem is that once a state institutes torture practices, many non-sadistic people become torturers. I have some sympathy for the many young soldiers who have now been involved with torture practices because of the administration, the military brass, and the CIA. Most of these soldiers are everyday people and not normally sadistic, now they will have to suffer years of remorse and guilt because of what they have done or what they allowed to happen to defenseless prisoners. Hopefully, some will begin to speak out against the torture practices they have seen or applied.
Torture practices, once instituted, have a way of spreading. If, as the pundits claim, "intensive interregations" are helping us win the "War on Terror", why would it not help us win the "War on Drugs" or the "War on Crime"? A simple application of electrodes could easily drive up our cities' solved crime rates. As long as we were not concerned about truth and justice, we could happily fill our jails with "confessed" criminals.
Come to think of it, if torture, such as water-boarding, is such a great way to get to the truth, why shouldn't it be done during Senate Hearings? Maybe we should install some waterboarding equipment in the Senate Chamber. We can borrow some equipment from the Khemer Rouge, or the Egyptians or our very own CIA!

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» RE: Torture will destroy us Posted by: Lauren
A NEW ACCEPTANCE
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Dec 13, 2007 1:10 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have turned a corner. And it didn't take long.It's not just Guantanamo and AbuGhrab.In Chicago a lawsuit for $20MM was just settled. 4 men were tortured into confessions. Once it's OK, people look the other way. It's no longer shocking. It should be. Maybe when a few teenagers think it sounds like fun and they drown one of their friends? It's not so far fetched.ANNA

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» RE: A NEW ACCEPTANCE Posted by: Lauren
» RE: A NEW ACCEPTANCE Posted by: talkville
If torture is a good way to elicit information...
Posted by: babs on Dec 13, 2007 1:55 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.... why not dig up Josef Mengele's files on the "medical research" he did on helpless detainees in the concentration camps.

While this suggestion is horrifying on all levels, that is what bushco wants you to start thinking. Information and intelligence, no matter how it's gained, is ok in Bush's tiny mind - and in the myriad tiny minds that he commands.

I am sure Mengele was certain that his "research" would be an invaluable tool for physicians and would "save lives", but there isn't a doctor in the world (to my knowledge) that would use the contemptible information he compiled.

But I guess it's ok for the mighty American war machine to torture whomever they want. They are so much more moral and god-fearing that those fascist Nazis, right?

One thing is for sure however: Mengele and his boss would be proud.

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words of wisdom
Posted by: EncinoM on Dec 13, 2007 2:31 PM   
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"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." - Winston Churchill

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» Better words of wisdom Posted by: vox persona
Cannot be possible!
Posted by: symcokid on Dec 13, 2007 2:57 PM   
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It's not possible that this USofA would be interrogating prisoners except under the strictest of guidelines agreed upon by the World Governing Bodies without deviating one iota - Bush said so himself! This Prince of a Prez never lied to us before, has he?

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Did Bush Watch the CIA Tapes for Entertainment, Just like Hitler?
Posted by: sofla100 on Dec 13, 2007 5:20 PM   
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Hitler use to watch, for entertainment, films of people being tortured and hung. One has to wonder, has Bush done the same? Given the lack of contempt he has for torture and the repeated lies about it, we can only conclude Bush takes delight
in this.

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Democratic Party: Soft on the Criminals Bush and Cheney
Posted by: left_libertarian on Dec 13, 2007 5:31 PM   
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The war in Iraq was based on lies. The Democratic Party, with the exception of the fearless Dennis Kucinich, has done NOTHING to stop these criminals.

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Why is torture a legimitate means in the so-called 'War on Terror'?
Posted by: PakiBoy on Dec 13, 2007 5:31 PM   
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There are so many questions that come up when one goes down the slippery slope of using torture. The proponents never answer specific questions beyond the deceptive 'ticking-bomb' scenario:

1. Realistic ticking-bomb hypo:
The authorities know there may be a bomb plot in the offing, and they have captured a man who may know something about it, but may not. Torture him? How much? For weeks? For months? The chances are considerable that you are torturing a man with nothing to tell you. If he doesn’t talk, does that mean it’s time to stop, or time to ramp up the level of torture? How likely does it have to be that he knows something important? Fifty-fifty? Thirty-seventy? Will one out of a hundred suffice to land him on the waterboard?

2. Does it not matter whether torture is intended to save human lives from a specific threat, as long as it furthers some goal in the War on Terror?
If the position is that 'War on Terror' justifies torture, then Presumably, on this argument, Japan would have been justified in torturing American captives in World War II on the chance of finding intelligence that would help them shoot down the Enola Gay. And amerika's 'enemies' would be justified in using torture on american agents to get information on such programs as 'renditions'.

3. Torture by the number:
Do you really want to make the torture decision by running the numbers? A one-percent chance of saving a thousand lives yields ten statistical lives. Does that mean that you can torture up to nine people on a one-percent chance of finding crucial information?

4. Finding Bin Laden scenario:
The authorities think that one out of a group of fifty captives in Guantanamo might know where Osama bin Laden is hiding, but they do not know which captive. Torture them all? That is: Do you torture forty-nine captives with nothing to tell you on the uncertain chance of capturing bin Laden?

5. Indeed, if you are willing to torture forty-nine innocent people to get information from the one who has it, why stop there? If suspects will not break under torture, why not torture their loved ones in front of them? They are no more innocent than the forty-nine you have already shown you are prepared to torture. In fact, if only the numbers matter, torturing loved ones is almost a no-brainer if you think it will work. Of course, you won’t know until you try whether torturing his child will break the suspect. But that just changes the odds; it does not alter the argument.

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America: Using Torture to Recruit Thousands of Jihadists
Posted by: sofla100 on Dec 13, 2007 5:38 PM   
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Across the world, respect for the USA has disintegrated. Stories of the USA torturing alleged terrorists have been spread across the television and newspapers of the world. Thousands of young men in Iran and Saudi Arabia have seen the stories, and are now fighting America in Iraq to defend Islam, to defend their brothers. America desecrates the Koran and Islam, flushing the holy book down the toilet for entertainment. We must fight say the young men, we are under siege. Meanwhile, in countries across the world, torture is now accepted as really being "OK." If Americans can do it, so can we. And, so it goes.

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Waterboarding is Swimming, War is Peace, Ignorance is Strength...
Posted by: yellow on Dec 14, 2007 7:20 AM   
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You get it.

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And who exactly is at fault?
Posted by: Ellen Remore on Dec 14, 2007 4:20 PM   
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Like everything I've ever read by Ray McGovern,
this article makes eminent sense. Which, unfortunately, serves to highlight the conspicuously gullible nonsense currently on display, courtesy of the complacent gullibility of Congress, the mainstream media, and to very large extent, the American public.

Here's a question I have posed to so many people on so many occasions: Just what exactly did you expect to happen when the nation placed a man of Lilliputian intellect in the seat of Brobdingnagian power--twice?

If American democracy, which is at present teetering on the edge of the abyss, ultimately plunges into an irretrievable pit of autocracy, it will be far less the fault of a cadre of evil imperialists or of a collaborationist press, than of the American electorate's spectacular stupidity.

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How come?
Posted by: donnee on Dec 15, 2007 8:33 AM   
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All the focus is on waterboarding, and no one mentions the even more heinous "techniques", the electrodes to the genitals, the beating with rubber hoses, the dipping into huge vats of water and urine with feces floating in it, the prolonged hypothermia until the brain shuts down, the extreme positions that victims are forced to sustain until joints pop out of sockets.

I guess this is child's play compared to waterboarding.

The torturers in South and Central America, taught in the US did their work very well.

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Some love for demoracy
Posted by: compu on Dec 16, 2007 12:07 AM   
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Mr Ray McGovern is the visble face of a group
of cowards,they are the only ones with expertice
and skills necesary to save this republic,I do not advocate killings,but a moderate coup
is mandatory if this is to be stop.
a lite operation walkiria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_20_Plot

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Were all copies of the CIA torture tapes really destroyed?‏
Posted by: giovanni33 on Dec 19, 2007 4:22 PM   
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Were all copies of the CIA torture tapes really destroyed?‏


In all the news reports about the investigation into why the CIA destroyed the torture videotapes and whether it was legal for them to do so, etc., I have never seen anyone question whether all copies were actually destroyed. Do you really believe that not one employee or
official kept a copy of them? Depending on the quality one wanted to keep, all of those hours of video would fit on one PC-type hard drive or one small stack of DVD's so would be trivial to hide, and anyone with access to the tapes over the years could have made copies.

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