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Where Anti-Immigrant Zealots Like Lou Dobbs Get Their 'Facts'

By Heidi Beirich, SPLC Intelligence Report. Posted December 17, 2007.


The media keeps turning to racist group FAIR for its "expertise."

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The forces seeking to sharply reduce the number of immigrants coming to America won a stunning victory last June, when nativist anger at an "amnesty" for the undocumented scuttled a major bipartisan immigration reform package backed by President Bush. Many members of Congress were completely unprepared for the flood of angry E-mails, phone calls and faxes they received -- an inundation so massive that the phone system collapsed under the weight of more than 400,000 faxes.

They should not have been surprised. The furious nativist tide was largely driven by an array of immigration restriction organizations that has been built up over the course of more than 20 years into fixtures in the nation's capital.

The vast majority of these groups were founded or funded by John Tanton, a major architect of the contemporary nativist movement who, 20 years ago, was already warning of a destructive "Latin onslaught" heading to the United States. Most of these organizations used their vast resources in the days leading up to a vote on the bill to stir up a nativist backlash that ultimately resulted in its death.

At the center of the Tanton web is the nonprofit Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), the most important organization fueling the backlash against immigration. Founded by Tanton in 1979, FAIR has long been marked by anti-Latino and anti-Catholic attitudes. It has mixed this bigotry with a fondness for eugenics, the idea of breeding better humans discredited by its Nazi associations. It has accepted $1.2 million from an infamous, racist eugenics foundation. It has employed officials in key positions who are also members of white supremacist groups. Recently, it has promoted racist conspiracy theories about Mexico's secret designs on the American Southwest and an alternative theory alleging secret plans to merge the United States, Mexico and Canada. Just last February, FAIR President Dan Stein sought "advice" from the leaders of a racist Belgian political party.

FAIR officials declined repeated requests for comment.

None of this -- or any other material evidencing the bigotry and racism that courses through the group -- seems to have affected FAIR's media standing. In just the first 10 months of 2007, the group was quoted in mainstream media outlets nearly 500 times with virtually no mention of its more unsavory aspects. Stein was featured on CNN's "Lou Dobbs Tonight" at least 12 times in the same period, along with countless appearances on other television news shows. And, perhaps most remarkably of all, FAIR has been taken seriously by Congress, which has called upon its officials to testify on immigration more than 30 times since 2000.

"The sad fact is that attempts to reform our immigration system are being sabotaged by organizations fueled by hate," said Henry Fernandez, a senior fellow and expert on immigration at the Center for American Progress, a "progressive" think tank. "Many anti-immigrant leaders have backgrounds that should disqualify them from even participating in mainstream debate, yet the American press quotes them without ever noting their bizarre and often racist beliefs."

The Founder: Early Hints

For decades, John Tanton has operated a nativist empire out of his U.S. Inc. foundation's headquarters in Petoskey, Mich. Even as he simultaneously runs his own hate group -- The Social Contract Press, listed for many years by the Southern Poverty Law Center because of its anti-Latino and white supremacist writings -- Tanton has remained the house intellectual for FAIR. In fact, U.S. Inc. bankrolls much of FAIR's lobbying activity and, at least until 2005, Tanton ran its Research and Publications Committee, the group that fashions and then disseminates FAIR's position papers. In its 2004 annual report, FAIR highlighted its own main ideologue, singing Tanton's praises for "visionary qualities that have not waned one bit."

But what, exactly, is Tanton's vision?

As long ago as 1988, when a series of internal 1986 documents known as the WITAN memos were leaked to the press, Tanton's bigoted attitudes have been known. In the memos, written to colleagues on the staff of FAIR, Tanton warned of a coming "Latin onslaught" and worried that high Latino birth rates would lead "the present majority to hand over its political power to a group that is simply more fertile." Tanton repeatedly demeaned Latinos in the memos, asking whether they would "bring with them the tradition of the mordida [bribe], the lack of involvement in public affairs" and also questioning Latinos' "educability."


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View:
Awareness
Posted by: talkville on Dec 17, 2007 1:38 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
NAFTA-type of 'agreements', part of the un-bridled neo-liberal program of corporate and financial capital, have given the the latter free-rein and mobility within and between borders. Labor, on the other hand is contained, at all costs, within the strictest limits.

Immigration is a practical issue to be solved; the worrisome thing about Dobbs and others is that, let's face it square-on, there's a subtle and worrisome thread of racism, chauvinism and nationalism barely beneath the surface of their "analyses" of the situation. They are appealing to emotive scripts.

USA control of the IMF, the WTO and in this country of Economic neo-liberal projects means that these issues spring mainly but not exclusively (viz. European actors) from these quarters. How better to correct the un-desirable consequences? Lou Dobbs and Fox News for instance: blame the victims and the dis-located by the very policies unleashed upon them. And very regressive feelings and emotions are being targeted to accomplish this.

Dobbs and Co will always clip, cut and paste 'facts' to suit their story; it's an ugly one.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Awareness Not Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: Awareness Not Posted by: crombie
» RE: Awareness Not Posted by: TagsNOLA
» RE: Awareness Not Posted by: talkville
» Democrat Hypocracy Posted by: Julia1977
» RE: Democrat Hypocracy Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Democrat Hypocracy Posted by: TheLimit
» RE: Democrat Hypocracy Posted by: talkville
You can't ban these people
Posted by: cordas on Dec 17, 2007 2:48 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am sorry but calls to have these people banned from the debate are just wrong, what needs to happen is they need to be dragged from their caves and exposed as exactly what they are. Any atttempts to ban them will just make them more secrative and harder to get rid off.

Get them on TV and in the media and continue to push the buttons that allow them to spill thier racist rubbish, let them dig their own grave and bury themselves.... if they really hate as much as it appears they do they will do this happily thinking that "everyone" thinks and feels the same as them....

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Agreed Posted by: Sparks56
» RE: You can't ban these people Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
USA: Exploitation, Contradiction and Lies
Posted by: sofla100 on Dec 17, 2007 3:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem with Dobbs and his cohorts is not that he does not have some good points. He is against the monstrosity of "free trade" and the massive tax burden on the middle class. But, his analysis is simply not in-depth enough. USA policies have transferred thousands of low wage jobs to the sweat shops of Mexico and South America. Yet, these people still want to come to America. The sweat shop jobs just are not good enough and are just more exploitation. Also, you have the exploitation carried out by the IMF and World Bank, as they fed rich elites at the expense of the people. It's only when a Chavez comes to power that Washington takes notice. But, then, they still don't want to help the people, just send in thugs to get rid of who they (USA) don't want in power.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

IDOECON
Posted by: ehensley on Dec 17, 2007 3:51 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wish we could separate the emotional issue of race from the factual issue of stagnant wages in the US. While the causes of the loss of living standards among American workers are many and complex, illegal immigrant workers are undoubetdly one of the causes. I believe this is a significant factor in the interest of the average American in stemming illegal immigration. Lou Dobbs may have capitalized on this in a hateful, fear-mongering way, but the underlying problem, I believe, is standard of living erosion.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

A sad rant
Posted by: magus65 on Dec 17, 2007 3:56 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First of all, notice how the title says anti-immigrant rather than anti-illegal immigrant. The open borders supporters do this consistantly - lumping all immigrants together whether legal or not. It is a classical example of misdirection used to supposedly link those who oppose open borders with racists.

According to the author FAIR and racist groups like FAIR are the only thing driving the backlash against the Amnesty bill.

Racists will, of course, be anti-immigration but their is a huge number of Americans who simply believe we have a right and a responsibility to CONTROL our borders so that.

Despite the radical center left's vain attempt to claim that Americans won't do certain jobs (at a crappy wage approved by their corporate masters perhaps) and that illegal immigrants give back soooo much too our country, some of us can still see that outsourcing and uncontrolled immigration isn't going to do our already sub-standard slave wages any good.

Immigrants are trying to escape lousy situations that we cause - I get that and I do sympathise. On the other hand depressing wages so that BOTH mom and dad have to have two jobs does not promote an informed and active citizenry which might actually be able to do something to stop the corporatist crap that makes them flee their own countries. Do you really think the bought and paid for center dem leaders are going to do help the situation? Maybe they'll get around to it now that they've stopped the war.

Do your research. The plans to merge the US, Canada, and Mexico are quite real and ongoing. It is not a conspiracy but the result of the same globalist neo-lib/neo-con ideology that brought us the EU which is being ram-rodded down the throats of europeans despite it's low and rapidly decreasing popularity. Like the EU it will start as a series of trade pacts and a realignment homogenization of some law but eventually the globalists will be pushing for more.

The author indicates that we "deserve" uncontrolled immigration because we cause the conditions that makes their own countries so miserable. But those who pay for uncontrolled immigration through lower wages and less job opportunities are not likely to be of the psychotic McMansion crowed that drive and implement such horrid policies.


Yes - FAIR is a racist organization. I believe Lou Dobbs quoted them once or twice until he found out more about them. He made a mistake on the credibility of a source - big deal - as if the MSM in general doesn't trip over itself and report blatant lies and government propaganda every ten seconds.

This has to be the most disingenuous fact free straw man attack I have ever seen - what garbage.

The author is either highly misguided or a corporate shill since corporations and their lap dogs are the ones with the most to gain from an uncontrolled flow of cheap labor.

Cheap labor democrats and cheap labor republicans marching as one, my isn't that cozy. Yet another example of the false left/right paradigm.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Agreed Posted by: Sparks56
» RE: A sad rant Posted by: newburcj
» No proper channels? Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: A sad rant Posted by: dezertlady71 dezertlady71
» Agreed, also! Posted by: zooeyhall
» RE: Agreed, also! Posted by: Cybershaman
» RE: Agreed, also! Posted by: Joe
» RE: A sad rant Posted by: Old Skeptic
» Guilt by association Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: A sad rant Posted by: Rod in 83706
» RE: A sad rant Posted by: DAP
» RE: A sad rant Posted by: jrmart
» RE: A sad rant Posted by: talkville
competing for the crumbs
Posted by: chrysalis124812 on Dec 17, 2007 4:55 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's very convenient for the denizens of corporate boardrooms when citizens of neighboring nations have to compete for jobs(survival) It helps keeps the focus off of the fact that they are benefitting to a ridiculous degree at everyone elses expense. The planet is being used up at an alarming rate to secure their profits, and you (the employee) are just the cheapest help they can get at the moment. I wish we could just start caring for each other, and let them eat money.

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» RE: competing for the crumbs Posted by: Jim Shaw
Lou Dobbs for President!
Posted by: Abe on Dec 17, 2007 5:06 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Enough said!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Lou Dobbs.. hate groups????
Posted by: patfr on Dec 17, 2007 5:14 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Its amusing the way you label Lou, and his supporters. All of the posts have some valid points, especially if you disreguard the main point they are making, we have laws in this country, do it legally, that seems pretty simple
for americans to understand. As for some of the intelligent, complex, double-talking post above,
SOUNDS GOOD, to bad you overlook the real problem.
kind of reminds me of some crap i heard a few years ago....THE WAR ON TERROR

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Lou Dobbs.. hate groups???? Posted by: talkville
On C-SPAN, at a forum, a former Mexican leader question Dobbs on trade and here's the SHOCKER.
Posted by: maxpayne on Dec 17, 2007 5:46 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lou Dobbs not only went around the question but when the Mexican asked him where his clothes that he was wearing were made in, Lou Dobbs had this to say,

"You better not try to look at my inside covers or I'll kick your ASS !"

and there was laughter in the audience.

Virtually any guest who comes on his program making a valid point on "free" trade as the culprit for this immigration mess gets "Bill O'reilly-ed". He also goes overboard bashing the Chinese and Indians with no regards to the fact that it's the American and even some European business leaders who are using them for "cheap", or shall I say near-slave labor, in the first place. That alone turned my wife off especially since she's from an Asian descent despite being born here. Nowdays I don't feel like I've missed anything by turning off his TV show and I think most others would benefit as well.

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The South's Gonna Rise A'gin
Posted by: jim_altman on Dec 17, 2007 5:54 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The US South has aleady risen. How many of the last thirty years have we been governed by former Southern governors? Even racism and Anglo-Saxon Protestantism are mainstream again. Try as it might through occupation and Reconstruction, the Northeast was unable to keep control of the South. How history repeats itself. It's the Southern Hemisphere that's doing the rising now. The historically exploited peoples of this deep South are rising up for their share of the global pie and the global Yankees are afraid. The previous 200 years saw the struggles of various Northern Hemispheric powers for global dominion, but now the South is rising. The immigration wave is just a foretaste. OPEC nations of the Near East and South America are beginning to flex their economic muscles. Wealth is slowing shifting southward. The 10% of the North can no longer expect to hold on to 70% of the goodies indefinitely. Whether this shift is peaceful or violent depends greatly on the enlightenment or stupidity of the Northern nations. Lou Dobbs, FAIR, and a good many Republicans and Democrats, conservatives and liberals alike sound pretty stupid on this.

Globalization and open borders are inevitable, but war is not. There is enough on this planet to go around. Kindergarten 101: Sharing!

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sailor50
Posted by: sailor50 on Dec 17, 2007 6:21 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What a load of crap this story is! The issue is about MONEY, not race. And those of you who buy into the racism expressed here should be ashamed of your own stupidity and gulibility. I live but 50 miles from the border and am sick of these invaders taking our American jobs, trashing our landscape, committing all sorts of crimes, and driving like they never had a driver training class.

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» RE: sailor50 Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: sailor50 Posted by: mr.E
» RE: sailor50 Posted by: Jbuuty
» RE: sailor50 Posted by: mr.E
» RE: sailor50 Posted by: YogiBear
I Love Lou Dobbs!
Posted by: thinkverybig on Dec 17, 2007 6:26 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with Lou Dobbs.... 100% I love him, Jack Cafferty of the Cafferty file and I like Keith Olbermann.

All are wonderful individuals who are standing up for something right and just. '

I wish Lou Dobbs would run for President... He's surely have my vote!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: I Love Lou Dobbs! Posted by: donl51
» RE: I Love Lou Dobbs! Posted by: makeadifference
FAIR is NOT FAIR
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Dec 17, 2007 6:35 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just wanted to warn people not to confuse FAIR (Federation for American Immigration Reform) with the very different organization called FAIR (Fairness and Accuracy In Reporting). The latter organization serves as a watchdog on the press and attempts to keep them honest. They publish a newsletter and offer a podcast, both of which I can recommend highly. I should add that I am not associated with either group.

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» RE: FAIR is NOT FAIR Posted by: magus65
The language of disturbed cult members
Posted by: JillHenry on Dec 17, 2007 6:40 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Supemacist, racist, nazis, etc., etc., are propganda terms used by the politically correct against white Gentiles who don't accept their cult beliefs.

Ever see these terms used seriously against Jews and nonwhites?

How many Jews are called supremacist or nazi for supporting the APARTHEID state of Israel?

How many Chicanos are called racist for promoting La Raza (The Race) groups?

How many blacks are called racist for attending events sponsored by the Nation of Islam, a black separatist group with many promenent members who promote the extermination of whites?

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His wife is a Mexican
Posted by: defrag on Dec 17, 2007 6:46 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lou Dobbs is a populist critic of capitalist excess who otherwise would fit right into AlterNet. Also, he's married to a Mexican!

AlterNet has simply gone stark raving mad on this one issue, for reasons that are not obvious.

Is somebody at AlterNet too lazy to mow their own lawn or something?

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» RE: His wife is a Mexican Posted by: DigitalAztec
» You sound insane Posted by: defrag
» RE: His wife is a Mexican Posted by: mountainmama
» RE: His wife is a Mexican Posted by: sailor50
» RE: His wife is a Mexican Posted by: YogiBear
» And Bush's wife is a librarian. Posted by: Mr. Heathen
The Mellon Banking Dynasty
Posted by: DigitalAztec on Dec 17, 2007 6:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Is also funding Tanton

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» RE: The Mellon Banking Dynasty Posted by: Basenjis
Anti Immigrant or anti ILLEGAL immigrant?
Posted by: liviaturner on Dec 17, 2007 7:06 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lou Dobbs is NOT anti Immigrant, he is ANTI ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT.

As am I.....

And most would be if you live in TX...or Arizona or CA.

Get your facts right, please...

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» RE: If the US has no system Posted by: MeridaLady
» RE: If the US has no system Posted by: donl51
I did a double-take...
Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle on Dec 17, 2007 7:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...at the subhead "The media keeps turning to racist group FAIR for its 'expertise.'"

Many progressives, including me, think of Fairness & Accuracy in Reporting when they see the acronym FAIR. That FAIR is hardly a racist group, and the thought of the media turning to it for "expertise" to support anti-immigrant rants is a ludicrous one.

The article doesn't spell out Federation for American Immigration Reform's name until the fourth paragraph; doing so in the subhead would have been fairer and more accurate.

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Complex Issues
Posted by: Southern Gal on Dec 17, 2007 7:18 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I believe that there are many people in this country who oppose illegal immigration because it's illegal and not because they're racist. In addition I think that people understand that the US and World Trade Organization policies are responsible for much of the flow of illegal immigrants to this country and to other countries. I think that people also understand that corporate America and the global corporations are the main beneficiares of these trade policies and cheap labor. People are worried about the direction that this country has taken. There are so many issues of concern and few politicians seem to care about the people of this country. Their main concerns are their corporate donars. People also understand that both parties would like to benefit from the votes of the immigrants in this country. By blurring the lines between illegal and legal immigration, the political parties can try to gain votes from a growing population and accuse their opponents of being racist and against all immigrants. I believe that we need a comprehensive immigration bill and policies which include protecting our borders. I'm not surprised that racist groups make illegal immigration an issue. That in itself does not mean that all people who are against illegal immigration are racists. The discussion of illegal immigration on shows like Lou Dobbs does promote discussion of issues and brings the topic to the forefront of national concerns. It seems that illegal immigration is going to be prominent in the 2008 elections and is of great interest to the people of this country. It would be desirable to see real data and reliable information used in these discussions of the issues. Give people the facts and let them form their opinions based on the facts. We saw the riots in France and we understand that this issue is not happening in just this country. People are being exploited by trade policies and are fleeing their countries for better living conditions if they can. We have families in this country who were impacted by trade policies and need resources and training to find replacement jobs. I think that people think about cleaning up our own country before they take on the issues of other countries. The fact that the trade policies of this country play a role in the conditions in other countries is of great concern. We need to elect representatives who see trade policies as a way to improve the conditions for workers in this and other countries. This is a long term problem that won't be solved quickly, but will take commitment from we the people and our government as well as governments in other countries.

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Immigrants
Posted by: frank69 on Dec 17, 2007 7:35 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm always impressed when descendents of immigrants attack new immigrants!
Unless you are a Native American Indian, shut the hell up!

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» RE: Immigrants Posted by: rinpochet
» RE: Immigrants Posted by: ynotu
» RE: Immigrants Posted by: parmenicleitus
two minutes hate
Posted by: pohjoinen on Dec 17, 2007 8:01 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a fascist system it is vital to focus the publics attention on a scapegoat population. By focusing our hate and fear on this group, we are blinded to the real problems we face as a society. Real societal change is a terrifying concept to the corporations running this country. Which is exactly why they use people like Lou Dobbs to deflect attention from our real problems.

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» RE: two minutes hate Posted by: mountainmama
» RE: two minutes hate Posted by: donl51
» RE: two minutes hate Posted by: TheLimit
Author is a zealot herself
Posted by: mountainmama on Dec 17, 2007 8:11 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People like this author need to watch what they say or it will come back to haunt them. She is no better then anyone else who spew out falsehoods and lumping everyone into a catagory with her own hate-filled words here. Lou Dobb's and those of us who agree with him on the ILLEGAL immigrant issue are NOT racist nor anti-immigration. As the daughter and granddaughter, on both sides, of immigrants - LEGAL ONES - I abhor her and those like her who state this mis-representation. It is BECAUSE of my LEGAL IMMIGRANT father and grandparents that I feel so strongly about the ILLEGALS. Put that into your thick head if you can, Heidi and like-minded morons!!!

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» RE: Author is a zealot herself Posted by: sailor50
» Hit the nail on the head. Posted by: ABetterFuture
webprowler
Posted by: webprowler66 on Dec 17, 2007 8:15 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
yet another head in the sand shill at work.
wake up, the flap was over illegal immigration
tell the truth or shut the hell up !

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Here we go again!
Posted by: rinpochet on Dec 17, 2007 8:22 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
not anti-IMMIGRANT. Get it right!!!!! It's anti-ILLEGAL-immigant. Now, is that so difficult?

Just love how those for open borders accuse those who believe in control of our borders as being anti-immigrant! Figure if they say it long enough someone will buy it.

I am not a racist. I am not a xenophobe. Understanding their desire to leave their country , I still believe that we cannot afford unlimited influx of illegals into this country. It has dramatically hurt the middle class by depression of their wages. What does it take to begin to stand up for the welfare of the American worker?

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» Look up. Posted by: benzene
» RE: Look up. Posted by: donl51
» RE: Look up. Posted by: skydog
Why is Beirich's Organizational Affilliation Not Disclosed?
Posted by: DrGeneNelson on Dec 17, 2007 8:42 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
See:
http://chetlyzarko.com/b2evolution/index.php?s=beirich

Heidi Beirich, Ph.D.
Deputy Director
Intelligence Project
Southern Poverty Law Center
400 Washington Ave.
Montgomery, AL 36104

'nuff said

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The Immigration Hypocrisy of White Americans
Posted by: benzene on Dec 17, 2007 8:48 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Gee, funny how everyone here can so easily forget that white people come from EUROPE, not from AMERICA, and as such, WHITE AMERICANS are IMMIGRANTS themselves. Europeans came here and stole land from the Native Americans by systemic disenfranchisement and massacre, yet now that the white Europeans are American, they forget completely about their own immigrant past. And yeah, sure, it's completely true that every single white immigrant into this country was legal, right? Bullcrap.

Anti-Immigrant Bloviated Rhetoric:

1) They're taking our jobs!

Really? Are they coming and kicking you out of your cubicle, out of your office, out of your garage or laboratory? Maybe the reason they're getting the jobs you view as yours is because they're better qualified than a lazy, uneducated and barely literate average American.

2) They're using our public services!

Good. That's what our public services are there for, to serve the public. And if they're from a poor nation or are undocumented, then where has the former promise of uplifting downtrodden huddled masses gone? Very American of you to greet them kindly.

3) They're out-breeding us!

OK, so you could a) work to make contraception free, easily available, and well-informed or you could b) own up to the fear of losing your WHITE PRIVILEGE and take a step back. White people have done an excellent job of tearing the crap out of this planet, so what gives white people the right to keep doing it? Do white people know better because they've been busy self-affirming their own shallow cultural achievements for centuries? Or is it just because white people are better in general?

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» second jobs Posted by: zooeyhall
» For what it's worth... Posted by: mjabele
Making Sense Out of Paranoia
Posted by: Ben Sen on Dec 17, 2007 8:51 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Making sense out of the paranoia that led to the defeat of Bush's bill has long been difficult. Is anyone surprised it eminates from a racist/neo-nazi source? Dobbes credibility takes the greatest hit after finding out who these guys really are. It's so odd, as a native of Mi. to find they're from Petosky. If you take trip down the Lake Mi. coast, you'll find a little town called "Climax" where the first black Americans after Reconstruction were voted into office. So don't blame the state.

The Progressive Movement in the state has a history, and is gaining momentum again in the Kalamazoo area--if nowhere else. The Democratic party needs to be built in the Northern part of the state.

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» RE: Making Sense Out of Paranoia Posted by: xennonette
Liam
Posted by: Liam on Dec 17, 2007 9:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As a Leftist I cannot understand these supposed "progressives" who cannot understand all the implications of the total loss of control by "our" government of U.S. borders. They call names because they have no argument - they fail to look at history (we are not living in the 1890's)-we are a country and culture in decline on all fronts and need to "Come Home America" to repair the mess that has been created over the last 40 years since Vietnam and Reagan started the destruction of the working class and American Middle Class. Why does the author think Bush supported "comprehensive "reform" on immigration? It was just another way to undercut the American Working Class - Gawd! Get real people!!! The writer of the article is the best friend the Global Capitalist have in their effort to crush the working class in this country. Dobbs has good points for discussion and I have never seen one "racist" statement in any FAIR publication I have read. AND Thom Hartmann on Air America has had the President of FAIR on his program several times. Hartmann also sees the problem for what it is - "an illegal employer problem" - put the people in jail that hires illegals and literally steal from citizens. You won't have to "round up" anyone - they will go home because there will be no jobs.

The "Liberals" are setting the Democrats up for defeat in 2008(almost an impossible task you would think) because 80% of American know their position on illegals in this country is stupid and harmful to all Americans. To call people concerned about our out of control illegal border crossers "racists" gives us the right to call you "un-American" It is the same thinking process.

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The facts are the facts.
Posted by: monkeywrench on Dec 17, 2007 9:05 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From the article:

" 'The sad fact is that attempts to reform our immigration system are being sabotaged by organizations fueled by hate," said Henry Fernandez...' "

Yes, and the other sad fact is that immigration reform is being sabotaged by corporations, who want to continue exploiting the cheap labor of illegal immigrants.

The fact at the base of all this is that we face a logistical problem in America: our economy and society, as it is constituted today, with manufacturing jobs sent to China and our economy based on consuming on credit, simply cannot absorb all the people who come over our borders. We need a two-pronged approach: (1) More effective border enforcement and the enforcement of laws already on the books to fine those who employ illegal immigrants, and (2) a streamlined and more responsive immigration service to more quickly move those applying LEGALLY into visas and, eventually, citizenship. And, who but the federal government is responsible for improving the immigration service? The fact is, the administration has no incentive to make improvements, because their corporate masters benefit if they don't.

Exploitation by corporations through our government, both overseas via NAFTA/CAFTA, the IMF and WTO and domestically by corporations employing illegals "under the table," have created the problem of uncontrolled immigration; and our government's continued reticence to do anything about it so that corporations can continue to improve their bottom lines is the reason Lou Dobbs is so angry, but also the reason groups like FAIR get traction.

Immigrants, both legal and otherwise, are only doing what any other human being would do in their situation: trying to survive. The real culprits are not immigrants; the real culprits are the cutthroat corporations who exploit them.

(A little piece of info. not too many hear: a friend of ours teaches English As A Second Language to immigrants, both recent and long-term, some of them questionably legal. What she is hearing from some of them is that they are considering returning to Mexico or other home countries, because life here has become so expensive and difficult. It seems that, thanks to exploitive administration policies at all levels, the American Dream is dying for immigrants as well. The problem for us and for them is that they don't realize it until after they have sacrificed their history and family to make the arduous journey here.)

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Has it ever occured to anyone
Posted by: willymack on Dec 17, 2007 9:49 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That there just might be an upward limit to HOW MANY PEOPLE IN ANY GIVEN PLACE ARE ENOUGH, AND HOW MANY ARE TOO MANY? Our current system of inviting anyone in the world with a grudge against the political/economic situation in their native land began in the 1800s when vast tracks of our country were uninhabited, and there was a lot of money to be made through the exploitation of immigrants, real estate deals, mining, logging, etc. The "frontier" is long gone, now, and over 300 million of us infest this country and are doing their level best to trash it. As far as I know, precious few are asking the question:"How many are too many"? Five hundred million? A billion? Don't think a billion people will fit into our country? Look at India which is roughly 2/3 the size of the continental US, and has over a billion people in it. As far as I'm concerned we ALREADY have far too many people here as we can't seem to be able to take care of what we've got. We simply don't need any more. Is this a hateful thought? Hardly.

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» RE: Has it ever occured to anyone Posted by: leemiller38
» literally BILLIONS Posted by: zooeyhall
learn the difference between egocentrism and sociocentrism
Posted by: Vince Coit on Dec 17, 2007 9:52 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only demonstrative statement offered by Beirich of Tanton’s “vision” is a statement about birth rates. It is very positive to acknowledge the fallacy of Beirich’s analysis; to take one demonstrative statement of Tanton’s "vision" and directly associate that statement with something totally separate. It is not a trivial connection in going from a statement about rates, birth rates for example, to statement(s) about individuals. Yet, this is consistently the tactic used to motivate feeling-based influence amongst the readership. This one statement about rates is followed by strung together, loosely coupled, often dependent clauses with indefinite context. So, this is not very good journalism. Certainly, natural science metaphors, such as the Petri plate thing mentioned in the article is cause for further concern whenever someone might take a natural scientist’s word for how to run a society. FAIR might not be comprised of good people, I don’t know based on this article, but Beirich’s race-baiting is insulting to my intelligence. I doubt anyone at FAIR or Beirich, alike could ever adequately make good a case where population levels, immigration rates, and macro-effects on society link so directly to the individual as this article suggests. It is fallacious to base a public policy as such.

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Americans are beautiful
Posted by: Lauren on Dec 17, 2007 9:57 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Beautiful men and music.

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BRAVO LOU DOBBS!!
Posted by: darkhorse on Dec 17, 2007 10:01 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems to me that Alternet must've lined up their supporters for this Monday morning's spew of misinformation & corporate suckass dance.

That 'article' is so full of venom, misinformation and slant that it's not even readable, never mind accurate.

If there's one thing that has kept me from calling myself a liberal it's the slanted propagandistic crap like this.

Bravo Lou Dobbs!!

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» RE: AND YOU.. Posted by: donl51
Realist not racist..
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Dec 17, 2007 10:06 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lou Dobbs next to Kieth Olbermann is the greatest critic of the Bush Administration on regular cable TV..

Lou's criticism of Bush and this entire administration is not just in regard to Illegal Immigration either..but a wide variety of topics and issues..

The ideological purification that occurs on the left often turns away some of those voices that are more effective in their criticism of Bush than 10,000 blogs..

The same was true of Dom Imus who right on air called Dick Cheney a "dick head..!"

Now Lou is such a racist he is married to a Hispanic woman and has his Hispanic in-laws living nicely in New Jersey with him..!


The issue is the overwhelming numbers of the ILLEGAL immigrants are their racists involved in this issue sure I guess but they are on the fringe and and expose themselves by their actions and rhetoric..!

My first concern is my fellow Americans of the middle and working class and poor and my black brothers who are getting clobbered by the jobs being taken from them and wages falling below living wages..

Take New Orleans why was all that work given to illegal immigrants when it could have been the anchor to bring all those blacks ethnically cleansed from New Orleans the only home many of them had ever know and created a cultural mecca that enriched our entire nation..!

I'm sure I'll be criticized for this but I am sure Lou Dobbs is no racist just a realist..!

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» RE: ealist not racist.. Posted by: donl51
Is there a well-funded trolling group to support racism?
Posted by: Jbuuty on Dec 17, 2007 10:08 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Every time a question of race arises on AlterNet, there is an onslaught of posts defending the Great White Way. While immigration issues (illegal and legal) may be more complex than simply race, the article basically addresses the fact that Dobbs uses 'facts' and other material from racist groups to promote his agenda. I can't imagine that this point was missed on so many readers. It seems like the most likely explanation is a slew of right-wing trolls, perhaps trying to discredit liberals by painting the comments of a leftist comment section with racist cremarks. Bunch of sickos!!

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they get paid to hate
Posted by: melindyrose on Dec 17, 2007 10:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
duh they are on the payroll
karl rove comes to mind, ken starr, bill oreilly, cheney, etc
what part of "we are no longer a free country" don't we understand? eat something, take a drive, it'll make you "well".

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What a load of BS
Posted by: Libsrule on Dec 17, 2007 10:25 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First of all Heidi, WHAT IS WRONG WITH WANTING TO KEEP ILLEGAL ALIENS OUT OF AMERICA?

Seriously what is it with you open borders and amnesty for types?

Why do you LIE as much as you claim Lou and others do?

Lou has NEVER said a thing about LEGAL immigrants and has always stated he welcomed ANYONE willing to go through the legal process to become an American.

SO HOW DO YOU EXPECT ANYONE TO TAKE ANYTHING YOU SAY SERIOUSLY IF YOU LIE AS MUCH AS THE REST OF THE OPEN BORDERS AND AMNESTY TYPES?

AND yet your article, like the rest or the open borders and amnesty type letters do the same thing.

THEY LIE about Lou and most of us who understand that the U.S. simply cannot afford to let everyone in who wants to come here. Why is it you and the others who want open borders cannot see this?

I've got a question for you Heidi and I won't be surprised if you are scared to answer it, but I always ask it.

HOW MANY illegals, or those who once went through the legal process to come her, should we allow in America?

Another 20 million?

Another 50 million?

How many Heidi?

HOW MANY?

Do you think America can afford to become a third world economy just so you can say you won the open borders debate?

Do you think that all of the money being wasted in Iraq and special interest pork should continue to be allowed WHILE at the same time millions of illegles of whom most are uneducated, unskilled and don't really give a damn about America, they just want to work and take the money back to Mexico or OTM, while we simply cannot afford it?

At what point do even you open borders and amnesty for all types wake up and realize that even the biggest life boat can only hold so many people?

Do you want America to become like China? A billion and a half of which 70 percent live in abject poverty?

So why do you ignore the future while only arguing for the immediate present? Isn't that shortsighted?

OR do you really work for large corporations who want the total destruction of unions, American jobs and only want cheap labor with no benefits because, like Wal Mart does, hires people and then tells them for medical problems go to the local welfare office?

What don't you get about any of this Heidi?

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Immigration--not the problem
Posted by: bar5608 on Dec 17, 2007 10:37 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Okay folks, some of you are right, and several are just flat wrong.
This is not a problem of protecting our borders, the problem is in the disparity of wages between countries. We should be working to equalize wages and working concitions across borders, as well as improve wages in American indistries where illegals concentrate. We need to kick the crap out of those Republican members of the NLRB, and get some people in there with clear eyes and and a clear concept of what it means to be an American, and what a decent wage is.

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tedrad
Posted by: tedrad on Dec 17, 2007 10:59 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lou Dobbs has stated, over and over again, that he is NOT against immigration; that he is only against ILLEGAL immigration, as we all are if we honor the rule of law. This author makes no distinction between illegal and legal immigration and therefor shows he has no regard for law or national sovereignty.

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Anti illegal immigration, not anti immigration
Posted by: joshuawelch on Dec 17, 2007 11:15 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The title of this piece infers the same straw man argument that many of the advocates of open borders put out there every day. These arguments of course give people the wrong impression about most of the people who oppose illegal immigration. Our immigration laws are in place for many good reasons, one of which is environmental. If we had open borders we would run out of natural resources rather quickly. We already are having major clean water issues in many parts of the nation. I'm guessing the author of this article isn't worried about an illegal immigrant taking his job, but many Americans such as plumbers, electricians, farmers, carpenters, roofers, and man ohers are. I wonder if the author has children who go to a school hat has to use enormous resources to educate illegal immigrants? So please get real about this issue and stop attacking hardworking Americans who are standing up for the rule of law, for environmental responsibility, and for economic stability for the working class. We are not bigots, we are common sense Americans. I wonder if the advocates of open borders would consider opening the doors of their homes to the general public? I'm sure you will find people willing to "do the housework you don't like to do" in exchange for some food and shelter. This is what they are asking the rest of us to do, this nation is our home.

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Lou's wife is Hispanic!
Posted by: makeadifference on Dec 17, 2007 11:22 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We joke that we're on a first name basis now. All in our circle say, "Did ya hear Lou last night?".

A lot of folks must not know that his wife is Hispanic and that his inlaws live at his home/ranch. Lou is as upset as any LEGAL immigrant is about the IL-legal aliens crossing our border.

This issue is about law! Are we a nation of laws or are we heading toward anarchy? If we are a nation of laws we had better start enforcing them. This goes right to the top... to the White House and Congress.

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This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
Anti-immigration
Posted by: daniel1982 on Dec 17, 2007 12:14 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Are they anti-immigration or anti illegal immigration?

There's a bit of a difference.

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» RE: Not much difference Posted by: jim_altman
» RE: Horrible Logic Posted by: magus65
» RE: Horrible Logic Posted by: Doubtom
Beirich works with AILA
Posted by: DrGeneNelson on Dec 17, 2007 12:19 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It should not surprise AlterNet readers to learn that Beirich has worked with AILA.

2004 Annual Conference on Immigration Law - American Immigration Lawyers Association (AILA), June 9-13, 2004 • Philadelphia, PA

http://www.csctapes.com/tapes/aila2004.htm

CASSETTE #113 Features Judith Golub and Heidi Beirich
The Anti-Immigration Agenda: What You Need to Know

Who Are the Restrictionists?
What Are Their Main Messages?
What Are Their Sources of Funding?
How to Beat Them at Their Own Game!

Judith Golub is AILA's Senior Advocacy Director.
Heidi Beirich is the Deputy Director, Intelligence Project, Southern Poverty Law Center

http://www.csctapes.com/tapes/aila2004mp3.htm shows a cost of $550 for all of the 2004 AILA audio recordings. An audio CD version of this session is also available.

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» RE: Beirich works with AILA Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: Beirich works with AILA Posted by: Doubtom
John Tanton and FAIR
Posted by: smadaj on Dec 17, 2007 12:27 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In the late 1980's I worked for an organization called Population-Environment Balance, which had the unpleasant task of trying to persuade people that both U.S. population and world population were growing far too rapidly, and that all sorts of social and environmental problems would arise as population increased. I was born when there were about four billion humans on the planet, possibly fewer. By the late 1980's the world population was over five billion. It is currently around 6 and a half billion. The earth cannot sustain continued burgeoning populations. The problem PEB constantly encountered was that any attempts to control human population ran against core beliefs held by most people, and PEB was doubly damned because it was both a pro-choice organization and also an organization that wanted to see a complete stop in illegal immigration, and a ceiling put on legal immigration. Since PEB felt that the U.S. population was already too large, they chose the figure 200,000 for a ceiling on legal immigration - the figure being equal to the number of people who emigrated from the U.S. each year. They had no position on who should be allowed to immigrate to the U.S., and pointedly did not advocate for fewer numbers from any region of the planet. Unfortunately for PEB - those who supported pro-choice were also generally for open borders, while those who supported lower immigration tended to be anti-choice.
PEB had a population agenda - not a racist agenda. During the time I worked at PEB I read extensively from Garrett Hardin's works and I feel that this article misrepresents the man. The article says:

One of FAIR's long-time leaders, and a personal hero to Tanton, is the late Garrett Hardin, a committed eugenicist and for years a professor of human ecology at the University of California. Hardin, who died in 2003, was himself a Pioneer Fund grantee, using the fund's money to expand his 1968 essay, "The Tragedy of the Commons." In it, Hardin wrote, "Freedom to breed will bring ruin to all."

In all of the conversations I had with Garrett, he never once expressed any feeling that any one race was superior to another, nor did he intend in his statement "freedom to breed will bring ruin to all" to imply that "freedom to breed" had anything to do with any one group of people. He was deeply concerned about the environment and the ability of the planet to sustain an exponentially growing human population. When he said that horribly impoverished people should not be given food because it would just enable them to procreate, he was not saying people should starve. He was saying that if there was a policy to give food, and nothing else, than the amount of human suffering would INCREASE - because in the future, in an environment that could only sustain a certain level of population, if the population was artificially propped up, there would be MORE starving people later on. If an impoverished village that could only sustain a population of twenty were artificially sustained for one generation, then left on their own, there would be a greater number of starving people in the following generation. He was not an advocate of infanticide, as stated in this article. Garrett Hardin was a compassionate man who was willing to look at the impact of human population on the environment, and take a stand about what he saw as the inevitable destruction of the planet, and wide-scale mass starvation if the humans on the planet didn't all start paying attention to reducing population.
With regard to John Tanton - I didn't know him well, but FAIR was associated with PEB. Many of us could not stand the man, and it was known by some and suspected by many that he was a racist, and that his organization U.S. English, was a front for racist activities. Ditto Virginia Abernethy, a real piece of work!

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» RE: John Tanton and FAIR Posted by: Basenjis
What you should know about FAIR
Posted by: Need to Know on Dec 17, 2007 12:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Virtually every specific and general material allegation the SPLC has made against FAIR is factually incorrect. Take a look at the FAIR website and see if you think the SPLC should be considered a credible source any longer. While you may not agree with FAIR's positions, the organization is certainly entitled to greater respect that this.

The official FAIR response is found at:

fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_splcresponse

Much, much more to come, I assure you!

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Illegal Immigration
Posted by: staugustus on Dec 17, 2007 12:48 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with Lou Dobbs because breaking the law should not be rewarded, and illegal mmigration is illegal. Cross the border into Mexico, and its a felony. At any rate, I had a friend whom I work with, whose new SUV was totaled by a illegal drunk(DUI) Mexican, drunk, and then taken to the hospital, for free medical care. The illegal was driving with no license, and the vehicle was not even his. What is going to take to make sure these morons are prosecutred and deported ASAP. The man ewas released and never seen again. So it goes without saying, many of these illegals commit crimes here, and even gangs like MS-13 are already here importing more crime to the USA. I am waiting fr someone to cross the border, and set off a nuke device. Maybe that would get everyones attenton then. Botom line is illegal is illegal, regardless of the emotional baggage some folks want to yell about. The employers of these illegals should be going to jail (CEOs to mom&pop farmers) and then maybe the ilegals might get the message. Likewise automatic citizenship (for anchor babies) should be questioned when the parents are illegal themselves. I am just tires of the law-breakers gettng away with it, placing a strain on the school systems here, and thinking american have t assilmlate t the latin way of life, when it should be the other way around.

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Illegal immigrants ---
Posted by: symcokid on Dec 17, 2007 12:56 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Illegal occupier immigrants" have been here for 500 years - they made up their own rules and now they feel threatened by a new wave of dark skinned immigrants, what goes around comes around!

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» RE: Illegal immigrants --- Posted by: SOWILO
The fact is I'm with Lou Dobbs.
Posted by: Soco on Dec 17, 2007 1:21 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Alternet is pushing this issue as political issue that most Americans don't agree with. This is not a racist issue but a matter of immigrants coming here illegally, taking jobs, burdening the system and committing crimes. I don't dislike Mexicans but they are being played by the Left and Right for cheap labor. Both sides have the same goals here people. Either way the "establishment" media wants to force illegal immigration down the throats of Americans which will continue to harm Mexicans by supporting the Mexican government of which these socially destructive policies and unemployment is causing them to leave and endanger theirs lives.

I'm with Lou Dobbs who's providing a public service along with Olbermann and Cafferty. If they want to come here legally fine, meet the same requirements everyone on the other side of the Atlantic is required to meet.

Judging by the authors previous articles it seems to be a favorite topic, I suggest she cover the fact Israel is an Apartheid state and consider the suffering of the Palestinian people and that wall.

"Mr. Olmert, tear down that wall."

The author trying to get you believe racism is behind this issue. I suggest she cross the border to Mexico as an illegal and see how she'll fair. If we had Mexico's immigration policy we wouldn't have a problem. Why isn't she writing about Mexico's immigration laws?

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Breaking Up the Bush/Rove Coalition
Posted by: Ben Sen on Dec 17, 2007 2:38 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As the battle unfolds, it looks more to me that it is pitting working class conservatives and bigots against the upper-class farmers, ranchers, businessmen and matrons who benefit from the exploitation of illegal Mexican immigrants. Up until now, they have been allies held together by the Bush/Rove "message." Breaking that up, could be the best thing that's happened in the country in a long time, and may even allow a black or woman to be elected.

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Lou Dobbs for President!
Posted by: Old Skeptic on Dec 17, 2007 2:44 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Actually, I think Dobbs has better sense than to get involved in politics, but he is 100% right about illegal immigration. What is it about "illegal" that the ultra-liberals don't get? No nation can survive for long the disintegration of its national sovereignty. Illegal aliens take some American jobs, but even worse, their constant availability as a pool of cheap labor undermines American workers, leading to lower wages and elimination of benefits. Their families soak up social benefits meant for Americans, such as free education, food stamps, rent supplements, health care, etc. Those who do pay some taxes don't pay enough in taxes to even begin to pay for the costs they engender to the American taxpayer.

We need to seal our borders and enforce our laws against hiring illegal aliens. Dobbs is right; the author of this essay is wrong!!!

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» RE: Lou Dobbs for President! Posted by: thinkverybig
POOR HEIDI
Posted by: patfr on Dec 17, 2007 2:45 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I only see about 28% of the posters that you
have captured. Isn't that about the same approval
rating as george bush?

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its capitalism baby!
Posted by: mr.E on Dec 17, 2007 2:56 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
pure and simple.

"they're taking our jobs!"

they are willing to work harder for less, and somehow they are the problem. what a bunch of bullshit. we have our heads so far up our asses we dont know right from left.

we won't get anywhere on this issue until we get to the root of the problem, and that means helping our neighbors (around the world) secure food, clothes, shelter and education for every person. how can you blame someone for trying to better their lives or those of their children?

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» RE: its capitalism baby! Posted by: magus65
» RE: its capitalism baby! Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: its capitalism baby! Posted by: Geolager
» RE: its capitalism baby! Posted by: TheLimit
» RE: its capitalism baby! Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: its capitalism baby! Posted by: Doubtom
» RE: its capitalism baby! Posted by: mr.E
heads up!
Posted by: ankhet on Dec 17, 2007 2:58 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Arnold Schwarzenegger and Walter Cronkite quit the board ... after the memos became public in 1988...Linda Chavez...also left, calling Tanton's views "anti-Hispanic, anti-Catholic and not excusable."

Note that none of these moral giants left until AFTER the scandal became public!

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VDARE.COM
Posted by: gellero on Dec 17, 2007 3:15 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
vdare.com hardly fits the definition of a 'hate' website.

Why do AlterNet writers always avoid the real issues posed by ILLEGAL immigration of 10-15 MILLION Mexicans/Central Americans?

Why do they refuse to admit that it suppresses wages of African Americans??

Why is any group that is against ILLEGAL immigration labeled 'hate group', 'racist' or 'white supremacist' ??

How is it that ILLEGAL immigration gets the endorsement of so-called 'Progressives'??

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» RE: VDARE.COM Posted by: TheLimit
» Corporate $$ Posted by: gellero
Stage Magic
Posted by: parmenicleitus on Dec 17, 2007 3:16 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Beirich's writing is stage magic.

Your friend's face is reflected in a mirror. Another mirror is held at angle to the first mirror, and likewise another one,and on and on. It will give you the impression your friend is standing right next you though he may be across the room. That is Beirich's guilt by association tactic and her "reasoning" is thus:

A. "Racists are anti-immigrant"
B "You don't like *illegal* immigration"
C "Some immigrants are illegal"
Therefore, you are a racist.



As for her use of rhetorical devices, note this in the present article, regarding Garrett Hardin, only because he doesn't agree with her political viewpoins:

That was the least of it. In a 1992 interview with Omni magazine, Hardin said he supported infanticide -- "A fetus is of so little value, there's no point worrying about it" -- as "effective population control.

She uses the term "infanticide" when and as it suits her. Most here would call the same verbiage Hardin used "abortion" as it regards a fetus NOT an infant! "Infanticide" is, purportedly, the language of "right-wing" religious fanatics when speaking of abortion and in the hands of Beirich, disingenuous slathering. Garrett Hardin (link to a collection of his writings) was passionate about environmental concerns, particularly human overpopulation. So? And?

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CATHOLICISM
Posted by: SOWILO on Dec 17, 2007 3:39 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. NAFTA and CAFTA are PART of the problem in regards to illegal immigration. We cannot have illegal immigration at these levels no matter who is at fault for the situation. This needs to stop for the good of all parties.

2. Economic problems in Central and South America will not be solved until the Catholic church is abolished.

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» RE: CATHOLICISM Posted by: saltoafronteira
hackbut
Posted by: hackbut on Dec 17, 2007 4:35 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What a sad ad hominem rant by one of the pro-immigration self-haters who despise their own culture which is being overun by immigrants. Try living where I live in the suburbs of Atlanta where our quality of life is being destroyed by them, and if you really love so much move them into your neighborhood, starting with Ted Kennedy's on Cape Cod, not as gardeners and maids but as neighbors, maybe in some low income housing. Why, at at time when our resources in this country are being strained darily (in Atlanta we're running out of water) would any sane person want to encourage more immigration.

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Beirich And The SPLC
Posted by: BryanTim on Dec 17, 2007 5:00 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To understand where Heidi Beirich and the Southern Poverty Law Center are coming from, ask yourself why is there a double standard here?

Pluralism and multiculturalism for Western nations

http://www.csulb.edu/~kmacd/books-immigration.html

Racial Apartheid For Israel

http://codoh.com/zionweb/ziondark/zionrac03.html

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It wasn't just nativists
Posted by: Staggo on Dec 17, 2007 5:09 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Folks, that bill sucked. You don't have to be a right wing reactionary to believe this. It was just a mass of unrealistic, unenforceable mish-mash. It was a non-bill bill.

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Lou Dobbs wife is Mexican
Posted by: chomsky on Dec 17, 2007 5:22 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lou Dobbs wife is Mexican!! How can you say he hates Mexicans?

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fair and balanced?
Posted by: mammamaia on Dec 17, 2007 5:47 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
dobbs and his comrade-in-harms, o'reilly, continually prove the lie in fox's claim to be 'fair and balanced'... how anyone there can say those words aloud without choking and/or gagging on them, i'll never know...

dobbs is so nazi-like in his vitriolic screed-shown hatred of immigrants, one has to wonder why he doesn't LOOK like an 'american indian' since he must be one, to be so down on anyone who wants to come here from another country...

love and hugs, maia
www.saysmom.com
for 100% free writing help: maia3maia@hotmail.com

"You must BE the change you wish to see in the world." Gandhi

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» RE: fair and balanced? Posted by: Doubtom
» Lou Dobbs is a Nazi? Posted by: BryanTim
Prove to me that it is good for America to give them Amnesty.
Posted by: Gramma Diana on Dec 17, 2007 8:35 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After Amnesty was given in 1986, the number of people receiving Social Security Supplemental Income doubled within two years.
Non-citizens receiving SSI: Mexicans 157,000, more than any other country. (Interesting: Unknown Country of Origin 8,576.)
Number of months between date of U.S. Residency and date of SSI application and eligibility category
0-11 months -- 104,861 for Mexicans
In 11 years, SSI will be paying out more than it collects in taxes, 2040 it will be exhausted (probably less now).
If we gave 12 - 20 million illegal aliens amnesty and a large number applies for SSI, it will be wiped out before 2040.
Unemployment: The Department of Labor states:
2006 Whites 3.9%, African/American 8.5%, Hispanic/American 4.8%
2007 Whies 4.0%, African/American 8.1%, Hispanic/American 5.4%,
even the Hispanics/American unemployment is going up
You can get all these figures from the Government’s websites.

Article: by Ron Paul (R-TX) 2003
http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2003/tst010603.htm
"Dark clouds are gathering over our already dangerously fragile Social Security system. In December, the press reported on a looming deal between the administration and the government of Mexico which would make hundreds of thousands of Mexican citizens eligible for U.S. Social Security benefits. The centerpiece of the agreement would be a so-called totalization, which would mean that even if a Mexican citizen did not work in the United States long enough to qualify for Social Security, the number of years worked in Mexico would be added to bring up the total and thus make the Mexican worker eligible for cash transfers from the United States..........
In the 107th Congress, I introduced the Social Security Preservation Act (H.R. 219), which would ensure that all money in the Social Security trust fund is spent solely on Social Security. As Congress continues to demonstrate an inability to control spending that threatens the Social Security trust fund, the need for this legislation has never been greater. That is why I intend to re-introduce this legislation in the 108th Congress, which opens this month. Social Security should be limited to United States citizens and nationals who have paid into the system. It should not be a global giveaway."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
U.S.-Mexico Pact Revealed: Billions to Non-citizens
by Dave Eberhart, newsmax.com
Friday, January 5, 2007
WASHINGTON -- "As a result of lawsuits, the U.S. government released this week the actual U.S.-Mexico Social Security Totalization Agreement, an understanding signed between the Bush administration and the Mexican government in 2004 that would funnel billions of Social Security funds to Mexican citizens.
TREA Senior Citizens League, a Washington-based nonpartisan seniors group, announced this week that after Freedom of Information Act lawsuits it filed against the government, it had received the secret agreement document.
Brad Phillips, a spokesperson for TREA, told NewsMax that the language in the agreement "raises more questions than it answers - such as what is the cost and who is going to pay."
The GAO has already warned that as a result of this agreement, the number of unauthorized Mexican workers and family members eligible for social security benefits will likely increase."

Some people need to take a history and economic lesson from Thom Hartmann.

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The easiest and most cowardly way to discredit anyone . . .
Posted by: Geolager on Dec 17, 2007 9:20 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
is to call them or their argument "racist."

Yet in the argument over ILLEGAL immigration, race is not a factor!! The people who comprise the largest NATIONALITY of ILLEGAL immigrants are not a distinct race yet they claim to be to confuse the argument. ILLEGAL immigrants come in all colors and from many different ethnicities. There are thousands of illegal Irish, my own people, and I disagree with their action just as much as any other ethnicity of person.

The only important factor that makes them unwelcome to many U.S. citizens is the fact that they have crossed our border ILLEGALLY and show no respect for those laws, which we have every right to enact. If you look at the laws of nations bordering our borders, they don't let us in willy nilly! Respect goes both ways.
There is a line of people filling out forms and paying thousands of dollars for the privilege of coming to this nation. It's also the utmost in disrespect to these very patient and demostrably responsible people for ILLEGALS to cut in line.
I wish the millions of LEGAL aliens would take to the streets with signs!

Meanwhile, as much as I respect the SPLC, I feel insulted and I urge them to cease publishing articles that make people who are simply looking for our laws and borders to be respected out to be racists.

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Our inner city youth can't find jobs because they were taught slavery is over
Posted by: Geolager on Dec 17, 2007 9:33 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's simply illogical and outright racist itself (if I may throw that word around freely and irresponsibly as others are encouraged to do) that we are allowing our inner city youth, many of them persons of color themselves, to be priced out of the job market by illegal aliens who are willing to do work for ridiculously low wages!
What are we doing to our very own citizens in our own nation when we put the welfare and success of people who don't even respect our border laws and those who are in line awaiting legal immigration, ahead of our our own kids??

Racism, my tush! The author trots out this argument with all the flourish of a Republican officeholder looking for a cheap house elf!
Meanwhile wages are depressed, Americans can't afford healthcare and housing, and water resources and energy are dwindling rapidly as they are forced to feed a bourgeoning population.
And yes, I am a liberal and I vote!

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What the SPLC forgot to tell you
Posted by: LonewackoDotCom2 on Dec 17, 2007 10:38 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The SPLC forgot to tell you that

a) they have an indirect link to the Mexican government
b) a quote source for this "report" has a similar link
c) in the same decade as the fund mentioned gave to FAIR, they also gave to Stanford, a Sickle Cell foundation, an Israeli university, and others.

More here. Alternet should consider investing in an editor.

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Wow Heidi
Posted by: apophenia_monkey on Dec 17, 2007 11:22 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
you spin and attempt to control the language almost as good as those you seek to denigrate.

face it sweethart, they're not "undocumented" they're freakin' illegally here.

until you can get over yourself and stop trying to control the debate through the use of the terminology, then to call a spade a spade, you're just another bleedin' heart.

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» RE: Wow Heidi Posted by: Joshua Holland
Okay
Posted by: SOWILO on Dec 17, 2007 11:52 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I re-read Heidi's article and I fear for our culture, our art, and our children. Not just in the U.S., but in Europe as well, where multi-culturalism will further set back the movements made by feminism. Any discussion of sexism or religion stops at this nebulous category known as race.

God, people, I live in Los Angeles! An immigration Katrina has hit this place. If an earthquake hits it, it's NOT going to be put back together again.

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Crazy, Crazy, Crazy
Posted by: Jbuuty on Dec 18, 2007 2:18 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The comments are fascinating. The article is an interesting expose of a racist group, Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR). Lou Dobbs is mentioned twice in the article: once very prominently in the headline, and later connecting him to FAIR through people invited onto his TV show and where some of his (mis)information comes from. Then half of the comments are about Lou Dobbs and the author's irrational attack on him. Seems fishy to me.

The article isn't even particularly about legal or illegal immigration, but about some of the people behind FAIR, which is actively involved in both anti-immigration and anti-illegal-immigration movements.

Many commentors (possibly trolling) insist on the distinction between legal and illegal immigration, which is valid, though exaggerated. American businesses are searching for cheap labor, and some are actively involved in bringing in illegal immigrants. But the Dobbs' crowd seems to be more interested in going after the poor illegal immigrants, than after the businesses.

Another obvious problem is that the USA has not been able to enact a decent immigration policy. Business interests and race both play an important factor in this. Businesses want to keep it illegal, since it is easier to control workers and pay less. Race is a factor because so many White Americans don't want increased immigration of Latinos/Hispanics.

Then we have injustice on an international scale that creates poverty and increases immigration of all types. Many commentors are misled (or possibly misinforming) saying that the USA is the goal of all poor people around the globe. It is an absurd statement. Most poor people simply wish to stay where they are. Most don't want to emigrate. Most, perhaps all, would like to improve their lives where they are, rather than emigrate to a wealthy country where they know they are not wanted. Some become desperate enough to emigrate, and others send a family member who hopefully will be able to send money back to the family. And even for those who emigrate, the USA is not necessarily the primary goal. American racism is known around the world. Many emigrants from African and Asia prefer nations less known for racism such as Canada and the Scandinavian countries. Latin American emigrants, of course, go to the USA most often due to proximity and family/friends who are already there.

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CRAZY?
Posted by: gellero on Dec 18, 2007 3:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What a bunch of BS above.......perhaps you should read about how the increase in H1-B visas for 'educated' workers displaces Americans.

Why should America be the dumping ground of Mexico's lowerclasses.....preserving the corrupt oligarchical system they have down there. The Mexican ruling class is in favor of open borders....takes the heat off them to do anything about their corrupt society.

Why are Americans who oppose 'multiculturalism' considered 'racist' without any evidence whatsoever. I doubt you'd find any poster here who'd take a stroll as a pedestrian on a Friday night in an immigrant Hispanic neighborhood.

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» RE: CRAZY? Posted by: saltoafronteira
............
Posted by: saltoafronteira on Dec 18, 2007 4:01 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After reading this title, I keep reminding what an old political science teacher of mine told us 25 years ago, in law school benches.
"If nazism is to be reborn, it will most likely do it first in russia, france, or the anglo-saxon world, specially the united states."

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» RE: ............NAZI REGIMES Posted by: gellero
» RE: ............NAZI REGIMES Posted by: saltoafronteira
By the way
Posted by: saltoafronteira on Dec 18, 2007 4:27 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Latin, or latino, defines an individual belonging to a tribe that lived, thousands of years ago in a region called latio, or lazio, in a land that we now name Italy. This people eventualy organized themselves better and founded a city, from wich an empire was built, called rome. Some centurys later, those latin founders grandsons conquered a bunch of dirty, semi-savage people called brittons, and kept at bay, along the rhine river, another bunch of savages generally called germanic, one of wich tribes where the saxons.
In time, those barbarians where civilized and christianized under a roman, or latin, matrix.
So, in a way, as grandons of those dirty barbarians you are also latin, or latino, just like your mexican cousins.
As we say in my country, don't spit into the skies because it will fall on you.

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By the way II
Posted by: saltoafronteira on Dec 18, 2007 4:56 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You dont like your immigrants, legal or illegal, because they stink, they don't respect you,they have a different way of life. To say it all, they dont fit in the little christmas card you have inside your brains.
Well, let me remind you of something. One sure thing is that they must be really desperate, because if they wheren't, they would never go to such a CRAP country like yours.
Do you know why they go? Remember the banana republics ? Yesssss !
They are poor because you have been shamelessly stealing them since the last 150 years or so.
So, they go to your home, catching the few remains that dont go into your fat immoral bellies. You dont like it ? Too bad.
I suppose they dont like to suffer your ango-saxon arrogance either but, unlike you, hunger expelled them from their homes.
History has some curious means of vengeance.
You steal from the poor and they submerge you. It's very biblical. Bad luck, fellas, but you really earned it !

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» Banana Republics?? Posted by: gellero
» RE: Banana Republics?? Posted by: saltoafronteira
» AWARE Posted by: gellero
» RE: AWARE Posted by: saltoafronteira
By the way III
Posted by: saltoafronteira on Dec 18, 2007 5:20 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bingo !
Suddenly the truth struck me !
You dont like your so-called latino immigrants not because they are latino, but because they are, in fact, ethnically indians. And everyone knows that you dont like indians. All that cowboy and little big horn stuff and all.
Okay. It's explained

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» RE: By the way III Posted by: SOWILO
» RE: By the way III Posted by: saltoafronteira
» Latino?? Posted by: gellero
» RE: Latino?? Posted by: saltoafronteira
» RE: By the way III Posted by: Loather
» American Reply to Salto Posted by: Loather
Illegal immigration characterize as racism
Posted by: g89dsw on Dec 18, 2007 8:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This whole debate is not about racism or zenophobia but rather obeying the law that is on the books. Not changing the law to accommodate those who have broken the law by entering this country illegally. How can we expect any citizen who play by the rules (Law) to have respect for the law when it is being manipulated to accommodate a few people who are lining their pockets with millions at the peril of those who labored to build this country over the years.

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Not advocating "open Borders". only equal wages.
Posted by: bar5608 on Dec 18, 2007 11:42 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems I failed to explain my position in my last post. Some folks accused me of advocating "open Borders". But that is not the case. If wages in Mexico and other SA countries were a little closer to par with ours, none of those people would have any reason to cross our borders illegally. Also, I feel that education of children, alien or not, is the smart thing to do. And health care for them is serving to protect our own population as much as theirs. An outbreak of some virulent disease on either side of the Border isn't going to be much help to us. Innoculating their children may just save us a lot of problems. Birth control can be promoted through education and health care, and that is something this World needs desperately.

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» Fix Mexico Posted by: gellero
The Problems and the Fix
Posted by: bar5608 on Dec 18, 2007 12:12 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A recent article in my home town paper states that parts of the Pacific ocean are growing so acidic from pollution that it may not be able to sustain the sea life that we are used to.
There are also places where the ocean has become a swamp of floating particals of plastic, the remains of our garbage broken down by the sun and broken up by the wind and wave action.
Other places are so infused with tiny wood particals that fish have difficulty getting enough oxygen out of the water.
We have to stop using so much coal and gas to make electricity. We have to do a much better job of recycling everything we use. Especially paper and plastics. If you're cold, put on a sweater. Us old duffers can put on two sweaters. And maybe cozy up to a warm pooch.
Energy is the key here. Why don't we attach a huge reflector to our space station, and beam some of the suns rays, which otherwise miss the Earth, down to a field of solar cells to power some of our needs.
We can use solar powered pumps to transport sea water up to a large reservoir on the CA high desert. Then use solar evaporators to make fresh water to sustain a new forest in that desert. Forests sequester a lot of carbon, as do the grasses and brush that accompany a forest.
Evaporation from such a reservoir would tend to cool the air over that desert, add to the general humidity, and calm those Santa Anna winds that drive those forest fires.
And last but not least, we could use the salt from the evaporators to roll George Bush in, and let him dry in the sun so as to become a permanent symbol of the ignorance of the human race, especially over the last eight years.

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Thanks Heidi, for the debate raising
Posted by: saltoafronteira on Dec 20, 2007 4:19 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks, Heidi, for this article.
You may be more or less accurante (I Think you ARE accurate).
But the important thing is that you helped to show how deeply this issue of immigration goes into average americans.
It's obvious that the majority is beginning to HATE everything alien to their pattern, forgetting that they are also grand-grand-sons of poor ignorant and sometimes aggressive immigrants that fled misery.
Even the "liberal" ones who try to conciliate his "so called" good principles with their badly concealed fear and mistrust, with a mixture of legalist interpretation of facts, or war against the new (and of course criminal) slavers, are engaged in this hate.
Some time ago it happeared in Alternet o lot of articles about the several steps towards dictatorship.
Well, here his one of them fully accomplished. The perfect scapegoats of fear and hatred, the immigrants, are ready to be used by criminal politicians in order to manipulate the people. because the people allready hates them. So much like the jews some years ago....
Heil Amerika, das IV Reich !!!!

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Keith
Posted by: RobertoC on Dec 21, 2007 12:50 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While the article points out some very significant points about the awful racial element that is directed at immigrants. There are significant factors that the writer ignores which is troubling. Firstly, the writer ignores the underlying causes of illegal immigration. This is all part of the efforts of corperations and the business community to get cheap labor and increase profits. The fault is not with the illegal immigrants, who are being ravaged in their own countries by having fewer jobs and cheap labor issues as well. I feel that all this banter is meant to keep the populace at large immigrants, illegal immigrants and citizens of the US pitted against one another. Meanwhile big business goes about it's merry way unscathed while we attack one another. Regualtions against cheap labor has to be stopped. These are not all jobs that American's don't want. They are mostly jobs that corperations don't want to pay a lving wage for so they get poor people from aborad to risk their lives and come to the US illegally while they also continue to outsource the other jobs that clinton and company romiosed would remain here in the US for it's citizens (information technology for one).

I don't watch Mr. Dobbs every day, but I do know that when I have seen his show he is very careful to differentiate between illegal immigrants and immigrants who come to the US legally, of which my family is part of.

Most other countries also have laws protecting their citizens from illegal immigration. Why can't we? I was offered a job many years ago in Switzerkand which I wanted to move to and los the job because the comany had to fill the job with a citizen. I could have moved there if I could prove I could support myself. In the US it is not about protecting American jobs, but about the corperation and business bottom line. We should of course address the racisits and bigots who are using this as a pulpit for hate, but please do look at the underlying causes and the other critical aspect of the American way of life going down the tubes as our expenses skyrocket and our jobs and saleries plummett all to support the bottom line of companies, many of whom don't even pay their taxes anymore because of all the loop holes for the rich. Remember what Warren Buffet complained about-- that his secretary who makes $60k a year pays a much greater percentage of taxes than he does as one of the richest people in the world-- and that is nothing compaired to the off-shore corperate loopholes of big business. Let's finally wake up and go after the real criminals.

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It's always the immigrants fault
Posted by: Racumin on Dec 21, 2007 10:01 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't get why people complicate this issue. It seems so clear. The "illegal" immigrants are not to blame and they are not causing any economic hardships on your precious country.
It's simple. First, the U.S. has fucked Latin America up. You, the citizens allowed this to happen. How many Latin American leader have been assassinated by or with the help of the U.S. Over here we know it, we have evidence. I don't know if you know it over there. You destroyed our economies to benefit the wealthy and your consumption.
So, these people have no choice. Do you really fucking think they want to be there. Have you ever had a conversation with an "illegal?"They don't want to be there. I know I wouldn't want to be in a place where I'm exploited, do all the dirty work and get spit on for it. They'd gladly leave if you left their countries alone. You say it's not you the hard working middle class Americans who are at fault. But it is. You say it's a Democracy, so fix it, vote. Get your corporations out of here. See the problem is that you can't because you're not a Democracy, but you still want to punish the immigrants.
If you knew what it takes to do what they do, you'd understand that it's courageous and selfless. Only when they get there do some of them become corrupted, but that's besides the point. Most of them get fake social security cards, so they pay taxes. I grew up around a lot of them. I know. They pay for social security that will never come back to them. The ones that don't have the cards usually are doing farm work that no one else is ever going to do. So what is it you don't want them around for? The reason you can eat so much CHEAP produce is because they pick it for nothing.
They do jobs that you will never want. These jobs were created by corporations taking over smaller businesses, like farms. In a small local sustainable farm, you can employ local people for a fair wage. If that were the case, then you could complain about the jobs they take, but they have jobs that were specifically created for them (to suffer), not you.

The solution is simple. You stay out of our countries, We'll stay out of yours. Or more realistically, you make better economic policies that don't hurt other countries and their poor won't come to your country. A good start is to leave Venezuela and Bolivia alone and take your military officials out of Colombia and quit giving Uribe so much money for his paramilitaries. With that, Latin America can become much stronger and you'll see a gigantic diaspora away from the U.S. and then you can pick all the fruits you like.

Beware. Karma is a bitch. If the U.S. economy ever collapses and you or your children want to find something better, you might be in the same position. Hopefully us Latin Americans will be more civil. Who knows?

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What's the big secret?
Posted by: hempnothate on Dec 23, 2007 5:35 AM   
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"Mexico's secret designs on the American Southwest"

What's the big secret? The USA stole the land from Mexico and they want it back.

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neocons and multinationals want open borders
Posted by: jwpa13 on Dec 23, 2007 7:20 AM   
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The neo-cons and “multi-nats” want open borders. Supply and demand laws work on both wages and prices. Bush is on record as wanting as many new-comers into our workforce as want to enter it. I’m a cop in suburban Philly. I go to construction sites where everyone speaks Spanish, nobody speaks English and none has a green card. Undocumented’s are here for the money, (READ THAT AS YOUR JOB). They work as carpenters, laborers, plumbers, tile setters, you name it, NOT just "jobs Americans won't do." They do work for lower wages because they don't have the overhead US citizens do: wage taxes, health insurance costs, auto insurance, etc. They are here to send dollars to their home countries. Only uncaring employers and western union make out from all of this. Wages of the middle class are being depressed in this process. The neo-cons want a financially insecure work force. Without a viable middle class in the US, "we the people" will be preoccupied with survival and have no time for political activity. “PUSH'EM back to 1910”, is the neo-con’s dream. I support Mexicans having better lives. I support a more democratic and less corrupt Mexico. If "we the people” don’t wake up and smell the NAFTA, the US will be like Mexico, if not a part of Mexico.

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The Political Scientist of Hate: Samuel P. Huntington
Posted by: elche on Jan 1, 2008 10:29 AM   
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Heidi Beirich's dissection of FAIR's racist roots is extremely insightful. It is quite troubling that FAIR has been quoted in the media as a respectable advocacy group. Perhaps more troubling is the more rarified anti-Latino cant put forward by Harvard professor, Samuel P. Huntington. In widely quoted and well-received article, “The Hispanic Challenge,” (Foreign Policy, March/April 2004) Huntington set out the terms of debate that gave nativism a veneer of respectability. For an analyis of this article check out the Thursday, December 20, 2007 blog, entitled, "Nativism's Apologist." The piece can be found at: http://eristic-ragemail.blogspot.com. It is disturbing that nativism has achieved so many levels of uncritical respectability. It is time to call it for what it is, racism.

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ECLECTICIST> S JIM RODRIGUEZ
Posted by: SJR505 on Jan 3, 2008 6:21 AM   
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It isn't it "ironic" that Lou "Wimpy" Dobbs is married to a Latina, like Jeb Bush and his brother, and constantly demeans the Latino immigration policy...What he needs to address is to ask the question :"What immigration policy...???" I am quite sure that he may be having problems in his bedroom with all his negative remarks of "Latinos" especially his offsprings...

He should have kept his old job of financial analyst for the news instead of flaying on people that are illegal immigrants that have no representation...The downside is that the immigration dilemma's downside is the "racial profiling " of U.S. born latinos as potential illegals - checking every Latino that is stopped for a speeding ticket and checking the ICE data base for a match...What an insult to all of us that family lineages way before the of the pilgrims...Our family's motto : "We did not come to the United States, the United States came to us..." And, how about those Latinos that are born and raise in the U.S. with professional degrees- BBA, MBA< PHD"s etc...??? And, lest we forget, the Honorably discharged veterans who gave their all during the pre4ceding wars...??? How about them...???

Finally, if we are going to build a fence for the mexican neighbor, please do not disappopint our neighbor to the North - Canada with its 6 to 7000 mile open border...

Remember :

Ah, you who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter! Ah, you who are wise in your own eyes, and shrewd in your own sight! Ah, you who are heroes in drinking wine and valiant at mixing drink, who acquit the guilty for a bribe,
and deprive the innocent of their rights! - Isaiah 5:20-23

When you stretch out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you;even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood. - Isaiah 1:15


Living as we do in a world that suffers so much, two opposing possibilities can easily tempt us: either to turn our backs and live oblivious to the pain or to allow the pain to overwhelm us and despair to take up residence in our hearts. The truly faithful option is to face the pain and live joyfully in the midst of it. Those who suffer most remind us of how tragic and arrogant it would be for us to lose hope on behalf of people who have not lost theirs. They are teachers of joy. - Joyce Hollyday Then Your Light Shall Rise

But woe to you who are rich, for you have received your consolation. Woe to you who are full now, for you will be hungry. Woe to you who are laughing now, for you will mourn and weep. Woe to you when all speak well of you, for that is what their ancestors did to the false prophets. - Luke 6:24-26


S...JIM...RODRIGUEZ+++ECLECTICIST SPIRIT SEEKER+++

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