AlterNet / By Mark Weisbrot
comments_imageCOMMENTS: 171

Holocaust Denial, American Style

Institutionally unwilling to consider America's responsibility for the bloodbath, the traditional media have refused to acknowledge the massive number of Iraqis killed since the invasion.
November 21, 2007  |  
 
 
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Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad's flirtation with those who deny the reality of the Nazi genocide has rightly been met with disgust. But another holocaust denial is taking place with little notice: the holocaust in Iraq. The average American believes that 10,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed since the US invasion in March 2003. The most commonly cited figure in the media is 70,000. But the actual number of people who have been killed is most likely more than one million.

This is five times more than the estimates of killings in Darfur and even more than the genocide in Rwanda 13 years ago.

The estimate of more than one million violent deaths in Iraq was confirmed again two months ago in a poll by the British polling firm Opinion Research Business, which estimated 1,220,580 violent deaths since the US invasion. This is consistent with the study conducted by doctors and scientists from the Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health more than a year ago. Their study was published in the Lancet, Britain's leading medical journal. It estimated 601,000 people killed due to violence as of July 2006; but if updated on the basis of deaths since the study, this estimate would also be more than a million. These estimates do not include those who have died because of public health problems created by the war, including breakdowns in sewerage systems and electricity, shortages of medicines, etc.

Amazingly, some journalists and editors - and of course some politicians - dismiss such measurements because they are based on random sampling of the population rather than a complete count of the dead. While it would be wrong to blame anyone for their lack of education, this disregard for scientific methods and results is inexcusable. As one observer succinctly put it: if you don't believe in random sampling, the next time your doctor orders a blood test, tell him that he needs to take all of it.

The methods used in the estimates of Iraqi deaths are the same as those used to estimate the deaths in Darfur, which are widely accepted in the media. They are also consistent with the large numbers of refugees from the violence (estimated at more than four million). There is no reason to disbelieve them, or to accept tallies such as that the Iraq Body Count (73,305 - 84,222), which include only a small proportion of those killed, as an estimate of the overall death toll.

Of course, acknowledging the holocaust in Iraq might change the debate over the war. While Iraqi lives do not count for much in US politics, recognizing that a mass slaughter of this magnitude is taking place could lead to more questions about how this horrible situation came to be. Right now a convenient myth dominates the discussion: the fall of Saddam Hussein simply unleashed a civil war that was waiting to happen, and the violence is all due to Iraqis' inherent hatred of each other.

In fact, there is considerable evidence that the occupation itself - including the strategy of the occupying forces - has played a large role in escalating the violence to holocaust proportions. It is in the nature of such an occupation, where the vast majority of the people are opposed to the occupation and according to polls believe it is right to try and kill the occupiers, to pit one ethnic group against another. This was clear when Shiite troops were sent into Sunni Fallujah in 2004; it is obvious in the nature of the death-squad government, where officials from the highest levels of the Interior Ministry to the lowest ranking police officers - all trained and supported by the US military - have carried out a violent, sectarian mission of "ethnic cleansing." (The largest proportion of the killings in Iraq are from gunfire and executions, not from car bombs). It has become even more obvious in recent months as the United States is now arming both sides of the civil war, including Sunni militias in Anbar province as well as the Shiite government militias.

Is Washington responsible for a holocaust in Iraq? That is the question that almost everyone here wants to avoid. So the holocaust is denied
Mark Weisbrot is Co-Director and co-founder of the Center for Economic and Policy Research. He received his Ph.D. in economics from the University of Michigan. He is co-author, with Dean Baker, of Social Security: The Phony Crisis (University of Chicago Press, 2000), and has written numerous research papers on economic policy. He is also president of Just Foreign Policy.
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Well
[Report this comment]
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Nov 21, 2007 6:23 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a HUGE difference between Amadenjad (?)'s questioning of the holocaust and what is going on now with Iraq. That difference being that Iran and its president had NOTHING to do with the slaughter of jews in Europe. The US has EVERYTHING to do with the slaughter of people in Iraq... and has been complicit in that slaughter both during the reign of Hussein, during the arranged "first" Gulf War, and now in Iraq today.

Its not Iran this country more resembles, but the Nazis themselves.

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» RE: Well Posted by: talkville
» Bevakasha... Posted by: ShoShenQ
» Well... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Well... Posted by: talkville
» RE: Well... Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Well... Posted by: talkville
» RE: Well... Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: Well... Posted by: talkville
» RE: Bevakasha... Posted by: werewolf
» RE: Bevakasha... Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Well Posted by: drsivana99
» RE: Well, we are awake. Posted by: Lauren

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Value and values
[Report this comment]
Posted by: talkville on Nov 21, 2007 7:59 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Value of "an American Life" is one that is distinct, in kind, from the values of all other lives on the planet. It's recited as an assumed Article of Faith throughout vast expanses of mainstream and other media, day in and out and for a long long time. Differences only exist in whether it's a matter of Nationalism and Chauvinism or of racial characteristics assumed as exceptions. Whether outside (e.g. Iraq and etc.) or inside (e.g. the "immigration debates" and 'legals' and 'illegals'), the under-lying assumption and message remains the same. There's always a qualitative gap, an empty space, between the 'loss of an American life' and loss of life in general.

They want to keep on living, acting, thinking , and speaking in these ways, and I say "They" in a deliberate and conscious sense as one of the many ways of quitting this pernicious and dangerous habit of living - immensely more momentous than a smoking or heroin or gambling habit. As a citizen, I refuse to grant the underlying assumptions and self-appointed 'righteousness' of that general 'vision of America' fed to us daily.

All loss of life, especially that consequent on nationalist, imperialist and universalizing zeal and aggression, is to be deplored by any one who wants to lay claim to such other words as 'humanity' and 'civilization' and not make them mere pre-texts and excuses for actions of an in-human, barbaric and un-civilized kind.

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» RE: Value and values Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Value and values Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: Value and values Posted by: talkville
» RE: Value and values Posted by: talkville

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Moving up the list
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Posted by: ScottP on Nov 21, 2007 9:49 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I presume the administration is proud of their progress up the list of killers (to broaden the scope beyond those cases that are clearly genocide). An off the top of the head list would be something like:

1. Nazis
2. Stalin
3. Vietnam
4. Pol Pot
5. Armenian
6. Iraq/US
7. Idi Amin, Rwanda, Darfur, Yugoslavia, Iraq/Hussein, etc.

Watch out Turkey, you're about to be passed!

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» RE: Moving up the list Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Moving up the list Posted by: johnrohan
» RE: Moving up the list Posted by: werewolf
» RE: Moving up the list Posted by: werewolf
» RE: Moving up the killing list Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» You forgot the Congo Posted by: lb
» RE: Moving up the list Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Moving up the list Posted by: clayclaiborne

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THATS NOT WHAT THE LANCET STUDY SAID
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Posted by: owlsliveintrees on Nov 21, 2007 8:19 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your ignorance is numbing. That's not what the Lancet study said at all. This was debunked a year ago, but you hoped that everyone would forget it. Shame on you for spouting the same lies.

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» RE: THATS NOT WHAT THE LANCET STUDY SAID Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive

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Democracy?
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Posted by: bgg on Nov 21, 2007 9:06 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The government talks about delivering democracy to Iraq but when it comes to Iraqi casualties, they don't count. If democracy isn't about counting votes and voters, then we're wasting our time.

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» RE: Democracy? Posted by: Eezee

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Re list of population massacres from ScottP
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Posted by: CJC on Nov 21, 2007 9:20 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You're missing a lot.

Probably at the top in the 20th century were the 30 million or so who died in China under the Great Leap Forward.

20 million or more died in various political calamaties in the Soviet era starting with mass starvation as a result of collectivization.

Then maybe the Nazis.

And of course on Thanksgiving especially we Americans (US) shouldn't forget about all the Native Americans we managed to kill or let die with smallpox blankets and the rest.

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And 68% believe Diana is living in Brazil
[Report this comment]
Posted by: PaulD on Nov 21, 2007 9:42 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Polls? POLLS?! Now there's a real scientific way of getting at the truth - if the facts don't support you, take an opinion poll.

What's next? A poll to determine whether JFK is really dead?

This author was on a real short deadline without a real live clue.

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» No one said OPINION poll Posted by: Hans B

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A sample survey is NOT a poll
[Report this comment]
Posted by: CJC on Nov 21, 2007 9:58 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What are you talking about?

The 2 studies published in the Lancet on estimating the number of Iraqis who have died are not polls. Have you read the papers? Have you heard the methodology described by the authors?
Do you know anything about epidemiology or public health?

Basically, the researchers devised a sampling frame of all of Iraq and randomly picked neighborhoods all over the country and then within those neighborhoods randomly sampled streets and then had Iraqi interviewers interview every family and ask how many people from those households had died within a given period. If someone came to your door and asked if anyone in your household had died in the last year it's highly likely you could give an accurate number. Residents were not asked what they thought.

From these counts it's possible to get a good estimate of how many people have died in the whole country within the selected time period.
There is, of course, a confidence interval around the estimate. I don't remember what it is exactly but say it's plus or minus 20%. So if the most likely number is 1 million then the 95% confidence interval would be 800,000 to 1.2 million. However you look at it it's a lot of dead Iraqis.

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» RE: A sample survey is NOT a poll Posted by: walldodger1969

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Let's not forget Bill's 500,000 Iraqi children.
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Posted by: mmckinl on Nov 22, 2007 12:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The Democrats, after all, claim Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. Back in 1996, when Albright was still U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, she was asked by reporter Lesley Stahl of "60 Minutes": "We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima ... is the price worth it?"

Albright replied: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price -- we think the price is worth it."

The figures were off a bit in 1996. It was not until 1999 that the United Nations, in a detailed report, estimated that 500,000 Iraqi children under the age of 5 had died as a result of the U.S./U.N. sanctions. And they continue dying -- reportedly as many as 4,000 per month."

google :UN report 500000 Iraqi children Clinton , bnet

I have included this information to say that "The War Party " has been in office since Kennedy. America needs a new direction , not another War Party President like HRC or any of the Republicans.

Indeed Iraq will be our shame for centuries. In the Middle East they still remember Alexander the Great from 331 BC. We Americans think we get a clean slate every time we elect a new President ... well ... it doesn't work that way.

.

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» You're absolutely right. Posted by: EKSwitaj

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It's Much Worse Than That
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Posted by: AlexLawyer on Nov 22, 2007 2:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's actually worse than that. On top of over a millon civilian deaths and untold millions maimed, 4.5 million have been driven into destitution and displacement. And on top of that 1m+ and the 500,000+ children who died as a result of sanctions (which included life-saving drugs), we supported and armed Saddam and encouraged him to fight Iran in a war that killed 2 million, caused thousands of deaths in the 1990 war, and were the ones who built his poison-gas plants, turning a blind eye to them until he invaded Kuwait. In the wake of that war we encouraged the Marsh Arabs, Kurds and Shiites to rise up, promising them support, then abandoned them to Saddam's tender mercies. For all but 2 of the past 27 years we have been bringing carnage to Iraq; no wonder they hate us and want to see the back of us as soon as possible.

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But who is it that is actually doing the KILLING?
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Posted by: RON_KING on Nov 22, 2007 3:59 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most of the Iraqi casualties are the doing of the insurgents, not the coalition military units. We don't use carbombs to kill Iraqis, the insurgents do.

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Surely not censorship...
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Posted by: Knowmad on Nov 22, 2007 6:00 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"This is consistent with the study conducted by doctors and scientists from the Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health more than a year ago. Their study was published in the Lancet, Britain's leading medical journal. It estimated 601,000 people killed due to violence as of July 2006; but if updated on the basis of deaths since the study, this estimate would also be more than a million."

You only have to read the above paragraph to get an idea of how even the American medical system has been bullied by your corrupt neocorp administration.

Ask yourself: Why was this American study published in the Lancet, and not JAMA, the American equivalent? It couldn't be that cheney and the rest of the children-in-power didn't allow it, now could it?

Nah, that can't be right. It was also buried by your MSM, so it must be simply that the neocorp elite thought you Americans just wouldn't be interested in a study by your own medical experts...yeah, that's it.
~

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What If?
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Posted by: QQOblivion on Nov 22, 2007 6:49 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The thought of a million-plus Iraqis dead as a result, indirectly and directly, of actions taken in my name is sickening.
(And the "Liberal" Media does indeed contribute to the ignorance of this genocide.)
What if the situation was reversed, and some other country had preemptively invaded and occupied OUR nation instead? What if tens-of millions (tens-of, since the US is much bigger than Iraq) of Americans were killed by the resulting violence and by the invaders themselves? I mean, I don't think many Americans would be too keen about this situation, even if the stated goal of the invasion was to remove America's dictatorial leader. (And we all know that America has been run by a relatively dictatorial president or vice-president on at least one occasion.)
What if YOUR loved ones were attacked and killed by the invaders?
Would you then be grateful for the invasion, even if our dictatorial president was removed, but the invaders still remained in America contributing to the mass-death?

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» RE: What If? Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: What If? Posted by: Ky Lake Dave

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Why only Jews count?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: lc on Nov 22, 2007 7:43 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As many gypsies were exterminated by Hitler as Jews but nobody cares or says anything about it. The Gypsies were thrown out of India centuries ago and made their way overland by horse drawn carts they converted into homes because they were never allowed to stay anywhere. They always were forced "to keep moving" so Hitler got rid of them the same way he got rid of the Jews. Hitler exterminated every ethnic group he could. The German Jews were no more special than the German homosexuals, intellectuals, political opposition (liberals) and any and all other critics rounded up and killed long before Hitler directed his efforts against all the Jews and sent his army into other countries to round them up.
Jews get all the attention because they know how to manipulate the media. 29 million Russians died or were killed by Hitler's army. More Russians died in Stalin's Gulag than all the Jews killed during WW II. But Russians are communists and don't count any more than Muslims and heathens to Christian idiot-ologues hitched to a Jewish born baby and savior on a Crusade to the oily lands in the Hanging Gardens of Babylon.
It can not be debated how much influence Israel exerts on US policy for fear of being attacked as "anti-Semite." But consider how many Bush people are Jewish. Consider how many media people are Jewish. Consider how many Jews you know personally verses how many dominate decision making at all levels of US economic and political administration. Now contrast that with how many Muslims you know or ever hear anything about. Bush I and II are guilty of killing over a million human beings. Israel has killed tens of thousands of its neighbors and domestic non-Jews. Only 4 million or so more mass murders and the Bushes will catch up with Hitler's numbers against the Jews. Yea God. Pass the bullets and don't shoot until you know what religion they are.
IM
Belteshazzar

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» RE: Why only Jews count? Posted by: wireup
» RE: Why only Jews count? Posted by: Ambrose Pare
» RE: Why only Jews count? Posted by: Turiye
» RE: Why only Jews count? Posted by: werewolf

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Any questions?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: willymack on Nov 22, 2007 8:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If it has webbed feet, likes to swim, and quacks, it's probably a duck. If a nation exhibits all the symptoms of a depraved, evil dictatorship, peopled by brain-dead Homer Simpsons-well, you know the rest.

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Nothing short of a nuclear mass killing
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Posted by: VannaLaRoche on Nov 22, 2007 8:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Will awaken the average American to what's being done in their name while they dance with joy over Glade Scented Oil Candles in "Glistening Snow."

Many more millions of dark-skinned, far away Others will die before any Americans miss a meal over it.

"It's the sheep in the other feedlot that are being taken away. If they were going to kill me, why am I getting all this nice feed?"

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DENIAL IS JUSTIFICATION FOR GENOCIDE
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Posted by: Smitty511 on Nov 22, 2007 10:09 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The actual number of Iraqi murders under the stars and stripes since 1991 is in the neighborhood of 7 million.

Since 1991 the US and Great Briton have bombed Iraqi CIVILIAN infrastructure on a daily basis.

Since 1991 the US and Great Britain have polluted the Iraqi countryside with over 2,000 tons of URANIUM 235. Enough uranium to build 500,000 Hiroshima size atomic bombs: The effects of which are seen in VERY HIGH cancer rates and extreme birth defects among Iraqi and OCCUPATION FORCES.

Since 1991 the US and Great Britain have denied ALL VACCINES FOR PREVENTABLE CHILDHOOD DISEASES. They have deliberately destroyed Iraqs' ability to provide safe drinking water. They have destroyed Iraqs' ability to effectively treat raw sewage. They continue to deny Iraq these abilities under their "reconstruction" because they are knowledgeable that a high infant mortality rate and deadly PREVENTABLE DISEASES WILL CONTINUE TO KILL CIVILIANS; MOSTLY CHILDREN. They have trained, financed, AND ASSIST the IRAQI death squads for purposes of ethnic cleansing.

The leaders of both countries have committed TREASON. By knowingly putting their own troops in danger by using Weapons Of Mass Destruction that will kill and maim for 4.5 billion years is considered an act of TREASON in ANY SOCIETY.

They are guilty of crimes against humanity for these stated IMMORAL and ILLEGAL policies.

They are destroying major archaeological sites in an attempt to literally "wipe" Iraq "off the map".

If one denies this as GENOCIDE AND A HOLOCAUST: Then we must deny there was never a "HOLOCAUST" ANYWHERE!

The goal is depopulation to favor the FASCIST IDEOLOGIES of the terrorist state of Israel. It really is that simple. That: is why the Arab population call our troops "MOSSAD"

When Fascism Comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross. -Sinclair Lewis

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Bleeding Hearts
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Posted by: magus65 on Nov 22, 2007 11:14 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You're all just a bunch of bleeding heart, pot smoking hippies.

This is war. You have to expect a little collateral genocide.

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» yo, man...pass the bong... Posted by: Coleman
» RE: Bleeding Hearts Posted by: Turiye
» RE: Bleeding Hearts Posted by: maestra
» RE: Bleeding Hearts Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: Bleeding Hearts Posted by: hellofriends

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BTW
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Posted by: magus65 on Nov 22, 2007 11:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, that was meant to be sarcastic - not real commentary.

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» RE: BTW Posted by: Turiye

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Pure Science Fiction
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Posted by: johnrohan on Nov 22, 2007 12:03 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
(Condensed from this article)

The Holocaust/Nazi comparison is not apt, since by far most deaths are Iraqi vs. Iraqi. If this were part of a deliberate extermination campaign, all Iraqis would be dead by now. Guaranteed.

But the "over a million" killed claim doesn't hold water either - not by a long shot.

1) Even if their methodology was rock solid, the astronomically high total of dead itself causes glaring problems. Compare the number to other wars; it's way too high, even when compared to wars that included millions of combatants, major battles, and deliberate targeting of civilians! In the entire history of United States from 1776 to present, the nation lost exactly 770,650 lives to all their wars combined. So the ORB poll figure in Iraq is far higher than the total number that America has lost in every single war it has ever fought?

2) Moreover, where are all these people buried? There are no mass graves in Iraq, other than the ones from the Saddam era.

3) Under the "rule of three" (where normally three people are wounded in modern war for every one killed), there are literally three million seriously wounded Iraqis that never sought hospital treatment. It just doesn't wash.

4) Iraqi Body Count (a vehemently anti-war organization) only estimates the numbers of dead between 77-84 thousand, a figure that is not perfect but far more realistic. They issued a devastating critique of the Lancet report, including the observation that, if it were true, then: "Half a million death certificates were received by families which were never officially recorded as having been issued".

And about the blood sample analogy - it just doesn't apply. As a liquid, blood flows through your entire body and any viruses or trace elements become fairly evenly distributed all around. People however, are not evenly distributed all over the map, and instead live in clusters. You might have heard of these; they are called often "cities" or "towns"...

More importantly for our purposes here, the violence in Iraq also tends to cluster in certain areas more than others. Hit any one of these areas for your survey and the numbers will be wildly inflated (or deflated).

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» John, John, John... Posted by: Coleman
» RE: Pure Nonsene Posted by: blitzmesser

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Its clear few have actually read the Lancet report.
[Report this comment]
Posted by: Gazza126 on Nov 22, 2007 4:05 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because if they had, they would know that part of the metholdology involved the researchers asking to see death certificates. And in 90 percent of cases, they were produced.

Similarly, if they had read the report, they would know the researchers were not interested in the causes of the high fatality rate. They only wanted to know what it actually was. (The American military certainly isn't going to tell us. Thery have an official policy of not counting civilian casualties.)

Its ironic that one of the official reasons for entering Iraq (I know, I know) was the estimated 1.2 million Saddam was alleged to have killed during his 20 plus years in power. Six years of occupation and we've most likely already equalled that number.

Let's hear it for American know-how and ingenuity.

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I Accuse
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Posted by: P. Hermes on Nov 22, 2007 5:39 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My mother's entire family was murdered by Hitler's Nazis and their syncophants. So I stand here today to say:

I accuse you, George W. Bush
I accuse you Richard B. Cheney
I accuse you Donald Rumsfeld
I accuse you Condoleezza Rice
I accuse you all, and all your self serving syncophants of the most heinous of human crimes:

Wanton mass murder of a likely million or more innocents in a war of pure convenience and brutality.

And...

I demand that you all be arrested and tried before a tribunal of both your fellow citizens and the world at large, thereupon to meet your fate such as you had inflicted upon those many innocents.

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» RE: I Accuse Posted by: justicenow
» RE: I Accuse Posted by: Turiye
» RE: And I Accuse Israel! Posted by: pierrot

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We rule by chaos
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Posted by: Ambrose Pare on Nov 22, 2007 8:03 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
'We rule by chaos' is the ideal at play here, well quoted by Zionists.

Don't forget, the US are the pricks who armed Sadaam, and got him in power.

They arm the different factions and encourage them to fight. They kill each other, and innocents as well. Total Chaos.

After a few more years of Chaos, the Iraqi people will be so worn down by civil war they probably will accept the US puppet government to be installed.

This is a Genocide, the use of DU weapons will kill millions over time. I think we should give Israel to the Iraqi people for their suffering. Sounds fair to me.

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There is still time!
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Posted by: Jersey Devil on Nov 22, 2007 9:58 PM   
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As the killing goes on - a couple of air dropped nukes in Iran will quickly ratchet up the body count of innocent civilians to one that can make us all proud.

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baby
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Posted by: granny52 on Nov 22, 2007 10:36 PM   
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"GOD HELP US".

http://uruknet.info/?p=m38464&hd=&size=1&l=e

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Here they go again!
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Posted by: foreverhope on Nov 23, 2007 3:47 AM   
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An organization, Unity08, is trying to form a new third party to run a "bi-partisan dream team" to upset the election next year.

They have a glossy marketing and advertising campaign, a tv star spokesperson from Law and Order, and claim to have 115,480 very angry voters ready to cast a ballot for whatever they are cooking up.

The website is elaborate and very consumer friendly, lots of bells and whistles. They are proposing to 'reinvent' our democracy.

Unity08 is putting together what they are calling their "American Agendy". God only knows what they mean by that.

The republican strategist at the "top" is said in a 1996 interview that he could get Hitler elected by the Bahai.

I can smell rabid right winger neocons, and that place stinks to high heaven. Unity08 is an elaborate internet hoax, a dog and pony show. I don't want a glossy marketing campaign, with some new wave third party, being strategized by a highly qualified republican, setting up an online scam to upset the democratic process next year or any year.

Take a really good hard look at Unity08 and get in on their American Agenda, "light a torch for freedom", and get the word out to others wherever you can.

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» RE: Here they go again! Posted by: foreverhope
» RE: Here they go again! Posted by: JOHN L.

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denial has been going on since long before WWII
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Posted by: jingles on Nov 23, 2007 4:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I didn't see anything about Americans in denial, or at best delusion, of the systematic extermination in bodies and culture of the Indigenous Americans, which is the real original 100% authentic American-style Holocaust Denial, so I thought I'd mention it. Yay Thanksgiving.

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Anti-Semmite or anti-Zionist?
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Posted by: lc on Nov 23, 2007 5:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In an earlier post about Jews ruling the US media and policy, I was attacked as being antisemitic. How typical. Maybe others out there would like to stop pulling their punches and call out Israel for its Zionist policies rather than have some religious zealot dismiss everything with their favorite nonsense response to any messenger and message the Jews don't like
Typical irrational religious reaction: Denial of truth. How dare I say anything against Israel even if they are guilty just like Bush. Stick to the facts without ranting Antisemitism. Why did you not also accuse me of anti-Christian-ism? Why is there only a word for expressing anti-Zionist sentiment but not anti-American. Zion is a country just like Americanism is represented by a country. I can attack America's policies and not be called an anti-Christian but if I dare to attack Israeli Zionist policy I am called antisemitic.
This Jewish policy of crying and attacking the messenger all the time while denying the message is going to be the end of Israel.
IM
Belteshazzar

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When the meat hits the fan
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Posted by: b4upoo on Nov 23, 2007 7:41 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wouldn't argue that a million folks have perished in the Iraq conflict. What we can not measure is whether the slaughter house effect might have been worse if the US had stayed at home. There are numerous factions wanting to use violence within Iraq as well as nations like Turkey that mull over the notion of stomping Iraq out of the history books. So we might actually be a peace
keeper relative to the situation rather than an aggressor. Frankly as long as terrorism is likely we have plenty of moral justification for letting loose on any nation that in any way contributes to terrorism.

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» RE: When the meat hits the fan Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» Tsk..tsk..tsk Posted by: Thetorganization

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Not the Reason
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Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Nov 23, 2007 7:59 AM   
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Amazingly, some journalists and editors - and of course some politicians - dismiss such measurements because they are based on random sampling of the population rather than a complete count of the dead.

They dismiss the measurements, but not for that reason. They dismiss the measurements because they don't like the results of the study. If a random study supported their desired story-line then they would be giving the Lancet study front-page headlines until everyone in the country could recite the results in their sleep.

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DUHHH It's a war
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Posted by: Ky Lake Dave on Nov 23, 2007 8:16 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Iraq invaded Kuwait. The USA along with many allies pushed Iraq back. Iraq broke over 150 UN RESOLUTIONS, breaking the ceasefire. The President declaried an end to the ceasefire. And with both houses voting we resumed the war against Iraq. We have been at war with Iraq since. In War People Die. The side that kills the most of the other side wins. The side that dies the most loses. That is a cruel fact of war. The USA or President Bush did not invent the concept. The more more fighting souls a leader sends against superior force the more fighting souls that side will lose. I blame the insergent leaders. If insergents wish to keep dying then they just need to keep attacking the greatest fighting force in the history of mankind. The war is turning in Iraq. We have the upper hand and we will be victorious. Democrats and Progressives have spent so much of they're political future on the USA losing that they just are unable to embrace VICORY. We will do wonderful things for the Iraq people and the rest of the middle east may see the example of hope and freedom and I pray they will follow the example a free Iraq will be.

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» RE: DUHHH It's a war Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: DUHHH It's a war Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: 'Penis'-oops, I mean pistol envy Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» DUHHH It's the OIL! Posted by: bigbad
» RE: DUHHH It's the OIL! Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: DUHHH It's the OIL! Posted by: zorro
» RE: DUHHH It's the OIL! Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: DUHHH It's a war Posted by: maestra
» RE: DUHHH It's a f*^king cretin! Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: DUHHH It's a f*^king cretin! Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: DUHHH The f*^king cretin is waving his flag! Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: DUHHH It's a f*^king cretin! Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: DUHHH It's a f*^king cretin! Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: DUHHH It's a war Posted by: harryf200
» RE: Ky Lake Dave Dipshit Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: DUHHH It's a war Posted by: nesNYC

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Amerika needs to acknowledge the genocide in Vietnam before
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Posted by: PakiBoy on Nov 23, 2007 8:47 AM   
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moving on to 'Eye-Rak'....

How many innocent people did you guys kill in Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam? Around 4 million...The use of chemical weapons (agent orange) in Vietnam is still causing wide-spread damage including birth-defects and death by horrible diseases

A recent estimate puts the death toll by agent orange at 500,000 and another 650,000 suffering from the diseases caused by Agent Orange.

So before moving on to Eye-Rak, why don't we set up tribunals to try every single member of the US administrations starting with JFK to the present regime in the Whitehouse for war crimes in Vietnam.

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The Big Three Dicks, er, Religions.
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Posted by: lc on Nov 23, 2007 8:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jew, Muslim, and Christian all circumcise as members of the same "covenant" they all share. The Big Three Religions have been leading all of us around by our dicks for so long we don't know who is screwing whom. Or is it, whom is screwing who? Who's on first: Jew, Christian or Muslim? Antisemitic, anti-religion, or patriotic belief in separation of church and state? In the case of Israel and its Zionist policy, their "church" is "the state." Israel/Zion is the exact opposite of the US Constitution separating Church and State: a no win situation for all of us being led around by our little heads, the cult of the covenant of the chopped cocks.
IM
Belteshazzar
AntiChrist is US

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xtiml
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Posted by: xtiml on Nov 23, 2007 10:53 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This story assumes that the ww2 genocide of jews is a fact, when in fact it is a disturbing lie foisted by zionist interests.The facts are on line if anyone cares to look into the matter.The holocaust was of the german people, the truth is the opposite use of projection is a sick minds tool. read about the jews declared war on germany in 1932.america sided with the worst butcher of the century and churchhill and eisenhour decimated the civilian populatuion of germany during and after the war.Look up the morganthou plan.churchhill,stalin and eisenhour were all jews.. The germans have been villified, demonized, and lied about magnificently and our countries have betrayed us.americas rulers have betrayed us since 1913.who owns major media in usa? hmmmm? there was no jewish genocide in ww2 The genicide was on the germans.

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» RE: Beware xtiml Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive

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Nazis were Christians
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Posted by: lc on Nov 23, 2007 11:32 AM   
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The Nazis were a political party made up of conservative fanatics and a subservient German population of good little German Christians. The Nazis were a political party of Christians. The Republican party is a political party of Christian conservatives. In both cases, their party has a "higher" calling, a "greater" good that "history will recognize."
The Whores of Babylon are in Denial
IM
Belteshazzar

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The statistics ...
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Posted by: harryf200 on Nov 23, 2007 2:16 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is far too simplistic to say trusting sampled statistics is okay in this, or any other, instance. Much depends on the robustness of the sample - i.e. how it was selected and its size. Poor sampling procedures will produce unreliable statistics, and a sample that is too small will also produce the same. As the adage goes, rubbish in, rubbish out. So, without knowing how the sampling was done, and without seeing the sample size, I would regard the stats to be unproven.

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» RE: The statistics ... Posted by: werewolf
» RE: The statistics ... Posted by: CJC

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1 is Too Many
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Posted by: gary_7vn on Nov 23, 2007 3:11 PM   
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I will go with the low number given by your blood drenched president. 30,000. 30,000 dead. Why? Some one please explain.

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xtiml, reporting just the facts mam.
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Posted by: xtiml on Nov 23, 2007 6:21 PM   
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such as heetler did not vant de var, But stalin,churchhill and roozevelt did.germany let the brits escape at dunkirk.stalin.If you read for yourself and not let others tell you what the history is you might be able to discern which is true history and which is snot.in other words the popular common held beliefs of people(which the people believe are facts but are lies believed)and thus you have it.The germans were actually the saints and the jewish churchill the ungrateful german hater, along with his master zionist stalin the best killer in history, and the jewish crippled roosenvelt who had ideas of grandiosity but wound up a disposable tissue of the zionistas, It is a sad tale of woe and misery, betrayal and greed,secrecy and intimidation,magalomania and cruelty,ingnorance,stupidity and just plain meanness, you are lucky to have the americans for your current exploitation, we after all are such nincompoops.

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» RE: xtiml, running at the bowels. Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: xtiml, . Posted by: xtiml

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A Bestial Nation Executes a GENOCIDE!
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Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive on Nov 24, 2007 11:43 AM   
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What possible good could come of trying to identify the kill-count in Iraq. If it were a thousand or 500,000, it IS STILL A GENOCIDE!! The morgues in Iraq have been innundated by bodies and parts of bodies and WE ARE RESPONSIBLE! The Iraqi soil is soaked in the blood and entrails of thousands of Iraqi men, women, and children and WE ARE RESPONSIBLE. Over a Million Iraqis have left their homes for other countries.

Our Veterans Hospitals are overflowing with the maimed and limbless of the Iraqi madness and WE ARE RESPONSIBLE! Thousands of families have interred their soldiers into the ground and been given an American Flag as a meaningless symbol of that last full measure!

What was all the killing for! Why are there still flag-waving assholes who are so PROUD of our killers and what we have done. Has this bestial war allowed all the cowardly to posture as flag-waving patriots pining for the day our killers can come home so they can share in their killing "glory" parades?

The thought of the countless dead and maimed that occurred in my name is sickening and wretched. I cannot think about it without great sadness. When will it all end?

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Ironic but America's uinsured are dieing in the same numbers
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Posted by: B. Spoon on Nov 24, 2007 2:25 PM   
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...and nobody seems to give a hoot about that. Both "official" tallies (Americans dead because of our health (un)insurance industry, and Iraqi civilians dead because of our invasion) are about the same, but both are also most probably grotesquely undercounted. Nobody who might be able to if they would only try, is counting real numbers reliably. Plus the profit-driven health insurance industry is costing our country about six times more than Iraq ($600 billion per year we spend but it diverts away from health care, and rising fast, out of $2.1 trillion total). That's a lot of wasted dollars.

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i think it's wrong
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Posted by: hellofriends on Nov 24, 2007 10:01 PM   
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to assume that body counts = genocide. it's the intention that matters. the intention never was to slaughter as many iraqis as possible.

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Not Surprised
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Posted by: SonOfBaldwin on Nov 25, 2007 7:32 AM   
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This comes as no surprise. America has been denying its various holocausts since its inception: Native American genocide and African middle passage, enslavement and lynching.

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» xtiml Posted by: xtiml

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A Thirty Second War
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Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com on Nov 26, 2007 3:07 PM   
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Watch any TV news report about the war in Iraq and it's neatly packaged into a thirty-second sound bite, usually focusing on "the troops" or quoting some clueless general or one of Bush's henchmen sent in to keep civilian deaths under wraps.
Counting civilian casualties is an arduous assignment because the numbers will be inflated.
For example, Korean war dead numbered into the millions. Why? Because there were no military targets; the whole country was like one enormous ant colony and when you concentrate overwhelming firepower and bombs on population centers, you get a high death toll.
Why are so many Iraqis dying? U.S. firepower is trained on their cities and civilians can't flee the maelstrom when checkpoints are everywhere and the U.S. military confiscates people's cars. And let's not forget the daily aerial bombing assaults by the air force.
TV reporters are increasingly reluctant to venture with a camera into danger zones to get the truth. You'll never get an accurate assessment of war deaths from "officials." They can't venture far from the Green Zone without bodyguards. That's why you don't see too many documentaries about Iraqi war deaths-yet. And by the time a camera crew arrives the mess will be cleaned up. All in thirty seconds. Cut to a commercial.

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How to change this problem
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Posted by: opeluboy on Nov 27, 2007 5:38 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Simple, really.

All the remaining Iraqis convert en masse to Judaism.

Then someone would give a fuck.

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Vietnam: American Holocaust
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Posted by: clayclaiborne on Nov 28, 2007 3:00 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
America killed 5 million Vietnamese. I made a documentary about it. You can see it here:

Vietnam: American Holocaust

and here's what we did to the Koreans

Kill Them All

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Could George be the Antichrist? I know farfetched, but read the webpage below....
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Posted by: GWBSUCKS on Nov 28, 2007 11:22 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Read this webpage below, and toss in a few words what you think? It is a weird website that has an amazing profound plausibility, if you believe in Religion?

http://www.bushisantichrist.com/

The founder of the website has done some serious homework.

Please read and comment. I believe this post on holocaust has some bearing on the website above.

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children stand to be set up for cancer
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Posted by: KeithRichardRadfordJr on Dec 1, 2007 7:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am for Health Care but not when your children stand to be set up for cancer.

In 1992 I was implanted with a microchip by the California Department of Corrections.

Just like the Angel of Death* HaloScan, IBM, Avid, Veri Chip and other company's use subcutaneous human tracking device, audio servalence systems and other venues against American people for fun and profit.

Since the Nuremberg trials the Nuremberg code of universal medical ethics have moved into California's Silicon Valley which is being protected by our own governments representatives.

The national fraud squad has opened an investigation into the affair. The four are suspected of abuse, aggravated assault, causing death through negligence, fraud, forgery, breach of statutory duty, and disruption of legal proceedings.

*Dr. Josef Mengele was a German SS officer and a physician in the German Nazi concentration camp performing human experiments on camp inmates, amongst whom Mengele was known as the Angel of Death.

Since 1987, Nancy Pelosi has represented California's Eighth District in the House of Representatives wile being on the board of Veri Chip.

Tommy Thompson, who approved RFID chips for use in humans back when he was serving under Bush as Secretary of Health & Human Services, is getting $40,000 a year from Applied Digital Solutions (the company that owns VeriChip) and has received company stock worth about $1 million.

As California's senior Senator, Dianne Feinstein has built her reputation on condoning torture, working with both Democrats and Republicans to find solutions to the problems facing California and the Nation court who have chosen to ignore human and civil right.

You Worthless Tech Trollops have been instrumental in working toward a North American Union. When will America wake up to the fact that our government knows human nature. Using sex offenders to justify their actions when what they are doing is universally wrong, is underhanded at least and fundamentally treasonous by using devices that are unsafe. Hiding the finding of company's product and placing humans at risk seems to be of no consequence to those that take them to court on habeas corpus writs.

I was told by my attorney that my case was demurer which means the state says so what.
So what if we treat you like a lab rat.
So what if you are diabetic and need to enroll in Adult Swim at your YMCA because of injuries for exercise.
So what if you are disabled and we made you move.
So what if you live a good honest life.
So what if when we made you move you were going to school to learn a trade and we disrupted your life during your finals and you could not finish your training.
So what if you and your wife who by the way has never done anything to anyone is waking in the middle of the night crying because you stand to be homeless for fear that no one will rent to you.
We lived in an apartment in Burbank CA when someone decided to place flyer's at our home about my 23 year old sex offense and get us kicked out of our home. So what.

Reminds me of the Quote by Pastor Martin Niemöller:
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.
We have one week to come up with a bunch of money to fight for rights for all Americans who are losing because they are better than sex offenders till their family member loses their trunks when diving into the community pool.
Sorry America we have no money. When these laws get done with us, they will not be satisfied.

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Massive death count, yes. Genocide? No.
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Posted by: lore on Dec 4, 2007 6:33 AM   
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You're right that the slaughter in Iraq is terrible. There has been torture. There have been thousands of deaths. The Western media has reported only on American deaths. The Bush administration has said all of these deaths serve a greater good.

But calling it a genocide or Holocaust is simply inaccurate (and, quite frankly, it's that sort of impassioned, not-quite-accurate radical rhetoric that allows you to be discredited by the powers that be in government). Look up "genocide" in any dictionary, and you'll see that the term refers to the systematic extermination of a group of people based on their nationality, race, religion, sexuality, etc.

While the majority of casualties in Iraq have indeed been Iraqis, it's important to remember that many of those have been spurred by Iraqis themselves. I also question whether it was really the United States' intent to wipe out the Iraqi people when we went into Iraq. Bush's goal was to get rid Iraqi of every remnant of Saddam Hussein and his elusive weapons of mass destruction. A better example of genocide is Saddam Hussein's attempt to exterminate the Kurds. There's a group of people who were singled out ad killed simply because of who they were. They were not killing each other.

So before you try and stone me and call me a Zionist or something along those lines, keep this in mind: I'm not denying the huge death toll. I'm not denying that the U.S. military has been largely responsible for many of those deaths. I am not denying that this war was a mistake from the beginning. What I am suggesting is that we need to think about how we frame the discussion so that people will take criticism of the war seriously.

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Well
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Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Nov 21, 2007 6:23 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is a HUGE difference between Amadenjad (?)'s questioning of the holocaust and what is going on now with Iraq. That difference being that Iran and its president had NOTHING to do with the slaughter of jews in Europe. The US has EVERYTHING to do with the slaughter of people in Iraq... and has been complicit in that slaughter both during the reign of Hussein, during the arranged "first" Gulf War, and now in Iraq today.

Its not Iran this country more resembles, but the Nazis themselves.

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» RE: Well Posted by: talkville
» Bevakasha... Posted by: ShoShenQ
» Well... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Well... Posted by: talkville
» RE: Well... Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Well... Posted by: talkville
» RE: Well... Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: Well... Posted by: talkville
» RE: Bevakasha... Posted by: werewolf
» RE: Bevakasha... Posted by: Lauren
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» RE: Well, we are awake. Posted by: Lauren

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Value and values
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Posted by: talkville on Nov 21, 2007 7:59 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Value of "an American Life" is one that is distinct, in kind, from the values of all other lives on the planet. It's recited as an assumed Article of Faith throughout vast expanses of mainstream and other media, day in and out and for a long long time. Differences only exist in whether it's a matter of Nationalism and Chauvinism or of racial characteristics assumed as exceptions. Whether outside (e.g. Iraq and etc.) or inside (e.g. the "immigration debates" and 'legals' and 'illegals'), the under-lying assumption and message remains the same. There's always a qualitative gap, an empty space, between the 'loss of an American life' and loss of life in general.

They want to keep on living, acting, thinking , and speaking in these ways, and I say "They" in a deliberate and conscious sense as one of the many ways of quitting this pernicious and dangerous habit of living - immensely more momentous than a smoking or heroin or gambling habit. As a citizen, I refuse to grant the underlying assumptions and self-appointed 'righteousness' of that general 'vision of America' fed to us daily.

All loss of life, especially that consequent on nationalist, imperialist and universalizing zeal and aggression, is to be deplored by any one who wants to lay claim to such other words as 'humanity' and 'civilization' and not make them mere pre-texts and excuses for actions of an in-human, barbaric and un-civilized kind.

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» RE: Value and values Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Value and values Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: Value and values Posted by: talkville
» RE: Value and values Posted by: talkville

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Moving up the list
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Posted by: ScottP on Nov 21, 2007 9:49 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I presume the administration is proud of their progress up the list of killers (to broaden the scope beyond those cases that are clearly genocide). An off the top of the head list would be something like:

1. Nazis
2. Stalin
3. Vietnam
4. Pol Pot
5. Armenian
6. Iraq/US
7. Idi Amin, Rwanda, Darfur, Yugoslavia, Iraq/Hussein, etc.

Watch out Turkey, you're about to be passed!

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» RE: Moving up the list Posted by: Crazy H
» RE: Moving up the list Posted by: johnrohan
» RE: Moving up the list Posted by: werewolf
» RE: Moving up the list Posted by: werewolf
» RE: Moving up the killing list Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» You forgot the Congo Posted by: lb
» RE: Moving up the list Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Moving up the list Posted by: clayclaiborne

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THATS NOT WHAT THE LANCET STUDY SAID
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Posted by: owlsliveintrees on Nov 21, 2007 8:19 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Your ignorance is numbing. That's not what the Lancet study said at all. This was debunked a year ago, but you hoped that everyone would forget it. Shame on you for spouting the same lies.

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» RE: THATS NOT WHAT THE LANCET STUDY SAID Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive

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Democracy?
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Posted by: bgg on Nov 21, 2007 9:06 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The government talks about delivering democracy to Iraq but when it comes to Iraqi casualties, they don't count. If democracy isn't about counting votes and voters, then we're wasting our time.

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» RE: Democracy? Posted by: Eezee

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Re list of population massacres from ScottP
[Report this comment]
Posted by: CJC on Nov 21, 2007 9:20 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You're missing a lot.

Probably at the top in the 20th century were the 30 million or so who died in China under the Great Leap Forward.

20 million or more died in various political calamaties in the Soviet era starting with mass starvation as a result of collectivization.

Then maybe the Nazis.

And of course on Thanksgiving especially we Americans (US) shouldn't forget about all the Native Americans we managed to kill or let die with smallpox blankets and the rest.

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And 68% believe Diana is living in Brazil
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Posted by: PaulD on Nov 21, 2007 9:42 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Polls? POLLS?! Now there's a real scientific way of getting at the truth - if the facts don't support you, take an opinion poll.

What's next? A poll to determine whether JFK is really dead?

This author was on a real short deadline without a real live clue.

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» No one said OPINION poll Posted by: Hans B

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A sample survey is NOT a poll
[Report this comment]
Posted by: CJC on Nov 21, 2007 9:58 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What are you talking about?

The 2 studies published in the Lancet on estimating the number of Iraqis who have died are not polls. Have you read the papers? Have you heard the methodology described by the authors?
Do you know anything about epidemiology or public health?

Basically, the researchers devised a sampling frame of all of Iraq and randomly picked neighborhoods all over the country and then within those neighborhoods randomly sampled streets and then had Iraqi interviewers interview every family and ask how many people from those households had died within a given period. If someone came to your door and asked if anyone in your household had died in the last year it's highly likely you could give an accurate number. Residents were not asked what they thought.

From these counts it's possible to get a good estimate of how many people have died in the whole country within the selected time period.
There is, of course, a confidence interval around the estimate. I don't remember what it is exactly but say it's plus or minus 20%. So if the most likely number is 1 million then the 95% confidence interval would be 800,000 to 1.2 million. However you look at it it's a lot of dead Iraqis.

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» RE: A sample survey is NOT a poll Posted by: walldodger1969

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Let's not forget Bill's 500,000 Iraqi children.
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Posted by: mmckinl on Nov 22, 2007 12:36 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"The Democrats, after all, claim Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. Back in 1996, when Albright was still U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, she was asked by reporter Lesley Stahl of "60 Minutes": "We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima ... is the price worth it?"

Albright replied: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price -- we think the price is worth it."

The figures were off a bit in 1996. It was not until 1999 that the United Nations, in a detailed report, estimated that 500,000 Iraqi children under the age of 5 had died as a result of the U.S./U.N. sanctions. And they continue dying -- reportedly as many as 4,000 per month."

google :UN report 500000 Iraqi children Clinton , bnet

I have included this information to say that "The War Party " has been in office since Kennedy. America needs a new direction , not another War Party President like HRC or any of the Republicans.

Indeed Iraq will be our shame for centuries. In the Middle East they still remember Alexander the Great from 331 BC. We Americans think we get a clean slate every time we elect a new President ... well ... it doesn't work that way.

.

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» You're absolutely right. Posted by: EKSwitaj

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It's Much Worse Than That
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Posted by: AlexLawyer on Nov 22, 2007 2:45 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's actually worse than that. On top of over a millon civilian deaths and untold millions maimed, 4.5 million have been driven into destitution and displacement. And on top of that 1m+ and the 500,000+ children who died as a result of sanctions (which included life-saving drugs), we supported and armed Saddam and encouraged him to fight Iran in a war that killed 2 million, caused thousands of deaths in the 1990 war, and were the ones who built his poison-gas plants, turning a blind eye to them until he invaded Kuwait. In the wake of that war we encouraged the Marsh Arabs, Kurds and Shiites to rise up, promising them support, then abandoned them to Saddam's tender mercies. For all but 2 of the past 27 years we have been bringing carnage to Iraq; no wonder they hate us and want to see the back of us as soon as possible.

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But who is it that is actually doing the KILLING?
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Posted by: RON_KING on Nov 22, 2007 3:59 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Most of the Iraqi casualties are the doing of the insurgents, not the coalition military units. We don't use carbombs to kill Iraqis, the insurgents do.

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Surely not censorship...
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Posted by: Knowmad on Nov 22, 2007 6:00 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"This is consistent with the study conducted by doctors and scientists from the Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health more than a year ago. Their study was published in the Lancet, Britain's leading medical journal. It estimated 601,000 people killed due to violence as of July 2006; but if updated on the basis of deaths since the study, this estimate would also be more than a million."

You only have to read the above paragraph to get an idea of how even the American medical system has been bullied by your corrupt neocorp administration.

Ask yourself: Why was this American study published in the Lancet, and not JAMA, the American equivalent? It couldn't be that cheney and the rest of the children-in-power didn't allow it, now could it?

Nah, that can't be right. It was also buried by your MSM, so it must be simply that the neocorp elite thought you Americans just wouldn't be interested in a study by your own medical experts...yeah, that's it.
~

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What If?
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Posted by: QQOblivion on Nov 22, 2007 6:49 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The thought of a million-plus Iraqis dead as a result, indirectly and directly, of actions taken in my name is sickening.
(And the "Liberal" Media does indeed contribute to the ignorance of this genocide.)
What if the situation was reversed, and some other country had preemptively invaded and occupied OUR nation instead? What if tens-of millions (tens-of, since the US is much bigger than Iraq) of Americans were killed by the resulting violence and by the invaders themselves? I mean, I don't think many Americans would be too keen about this situation, even if the stated goal of the invasion was to remove America's dictatorial leader. (And we all know that America has been run by a relatively dictatorial president or vice-president on at least one occasion.)
What if YOUR loved ones were attacked and killed by the invaders?
Would you then be grateful for the invasion, even if our dictatorial president was removed, but the invaders still remained in America contributing to the mass-death?

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» RE: What If? Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: What If? Posted by: Ky Lake Dave

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Why only Jews count?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: lc on Nov 22, 2007 7:43 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As many gypsies were exterminated by Hitler as Jews but nobody cares or says anything about it. The Gypsies were thrown out of India centuries ago and made their way overland by horse drawn carts they converted into homes because they were never allowed to stay anywhere. They always were forced "to keep moving" so Hitler got rid of them the same way he got rid of the Jews. Hitler exterminated every ethnic group he could. The German Jews were no more special than the German homosexuals, intellectuals, political opposition (liberals) and any and all other critics rounded up and killed long before Hitler directed his efforts against all the Jews and sent his army into other countries to round them up.
Jews get all the attention because they know how to manipulate the media. 29 million Russians died or were killed by Hitler's army. More Russians died in Stalin's Gulag than all the Jews killed during WW II. But Russians are communists and don't count any more than Muslims and heathens to Christian idiot-ologues hitched to a Jewish born baby and savior on a Crusade to the oily lands in the Hanging Gardens of Babylon.
It can not be debated how much influence Israel exerts on US policy for fear of being attacked as "anti-Semite." But consider how many Bush people are Jewish. Consider how many media people are Jewish. Consider how many Jews you know personally verses how many dominate decision making at all levels of US economic and political administration. Now contrast that with how many Muslims you know or ever hear anything about. Bush I and II are guilty of killing over a million human beings. Israel has killed tens of thousands of its neighbors and domestic non-Jews. Only 4 million or so more mass murders and the Bushes will catch up with Hitler's numbers against the Jews. Yea God. Pass the bullets and don't shoot until you know what religion they are.
IM
Belteshazzar

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» RE: Why only Jews count? Posted by: wireup
» RE: Why only Jews count? Posted by: Ambrose Pare
» RE: Why only Jews count? Posted by: Turiye
» RE: Why only Jews count? Posted by: werewolf

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Any questions?
[Report this comment]
Posted by: willymack on Nov 22, 2007 8:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If it has webbed feet, likes to swim, and quacks, it's probably a duck. If a nation exhibits all the symptoms of a depraved, evil dictatorship, peopled by brain-dead Homer Simpsons-well, you know the rest.

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Nothing short of a nuclear mass killing
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Posted by: VannaLaRoche on Nov 22, 2007 8:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Will awaken the average American to what's being done in their name while they dance with joy over Glade Scented Oil Candles in "Glistening Snow."

Many more millions of dark-skinned, far away Others will die before any Americans miss a meal over it.

"It's the sheep in the other feedlot that are being taken away. If they were going to kill me, why am I getting all this nice feed?"

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DENIAL IS JUSTIFICATION FOR GENOCIDE
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Posted by: Smitty511 on Nov 22, 2007 10:09 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The actual number of Iraqi murders under the stars and stripes since 1991 is in the neighborhood of 7 million.

Since 1991 the US and Great Briton have bombed Iraqi CIVILIAN infrastructure on a daily basis.

Since 1991 the US and Great Britain have polluted the Iraqi countryside with over 2,000 tons of URANIUM 235. Enough uranium to build 500,000 Hiroshima size atomic bombs: The effects of which are seen in VERY HIGH cancer rates and extreme birth defects among Iraqi and OCCUPATION FORCES.

Since 1991 the US and Great Britain have denied ALL VACCINES FOR PREVENTABLE CHILDHOOD DISEASES. They have deliberately destroyed Iraqs' ability to provide safe drinking water. They have destroyed Iraqs' ability to effectively treat raw sewage. They continue to deny Iraq these abilities under their "reconstruction" because they are knowledgeable that a high infant mortality rate and deadly PREVENTABLE DISEASES WILL CONTINUE TO KILL CIVILIANS; MOSTLY CHILDREN. They have trained, financed, AND ASSIST the IRAQI death squads for purposes of ethnic cleansing.

The leaders of both countries have committed TREASON. By knowingly putting their own troops in danger by using Weapons Of Mass Destruction that will kill and maim for 4.5 billion years is considered an act of TREASON in ANY SOCIETY.

They are guilty of crimes against humanity for these stated IMMORAL and ILLEGAL policies.

They are destroying major archaeological sites in an attempt to literally "wipe" Iraq "off the map".

If one denies this as GENOCIDE AND A HOLOCAUST: Then we must deny there was never a "HOLOCAUST" ANYWHERE!

The goal is depopulation to favor the FASCIST IDEOLOGIES of the terrorist state of Israel. It really is that simple. That: is why the Arab population call our troops "MOSSAD"

When Fascism Comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross. -Sinclair Lewis

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Bleeding Hearts
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Posted by: magus65 on Nov 22, 2007 11:14 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You're all just a bunch of bleeding heart, pot smoking hippies.

This is war. You have to expect a little collateral genocide.

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» yo, man...pass the bong... Posted by: Coleman
» RE: Bleeding Hearts Posted by: Turiye
» RE: Bleeding Hearts Posted by: maestra
» RE: Bleeding Hearts Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: Bleeding Hearts Posted by: hellofriends

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BTW
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Posted by: magus65 on Nov 22, 2007 11:16 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, that was meant to be sarcastic - not real commentary.

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» RE: BTW Posted by: Turiye

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Pure Science Fiction
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Posted by: johnrohan on Nov 22, 2007 12:03 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
(Condensed from this article)

The Holocaust/Nazi comparison is not apt, since by far most deaths are Iraqi vs. Iraqi. If this were part of a deliberate extermination campaign, all Iraqis would be dead by now. Guaranteed.

But the "over a million" killed claim doesn't hold water either - not by a long shot.

1) Even if their methodology was rock solid, the astronomically high total of dead itself causes glaring problems. Compare the number to other wars; it's way too high, even when compared to wars that included millions of combatants, major battles, and deliberate targeting of civilians! In the entire history of United States from 1776 to present, the nation lost exactly 770,650 lives to all their wars combined. So the ORB poll figure in Iraq is far higher than the total number that America has lost in every single war it has ever fought?

2) Moreover, where are all these people buried? There are no mass graves in Iraq, other than the ones from the Saddam era.

3) Under the "rule of three" (where normally three people are wounded in modern war for every one killed), there are literally three million seriously wounded Iraqis that never sought hospital treatment. It just doesn't wash.

4) Iraqi Body Count (a vehemently anti-war organization) only estimates the numbers of dead between 77-84 thousand, a figure that is not perfect but far more realistic. They issued a devastating critique of the Lancet report, including the observation that, if it were true, then: "Half a million death certificates were received by families which were never officially recorded as having been issued".

And about the blood sample analogy - it just doesn't apply. As a liquid, blood flows through your entire body and any viruses or trace elements become fairly evenly distributed all around. People however, are not evenly distributed all over the map, and instead live in clusters. You might have heard of these; they are called often "cities" or "towns"...

More importantly for our purposes here, the violence in Iraq also tends to cluster in certain areas more than others. Hit any one of these areas for your survey and the numbers will be wildly inflated (or deflated).

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» John, John, John... Posted by: Coleman
» RE: Pure Nonsene Posted by: blitzmesser

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Its clear few have actually read the Lancet report.
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Posted by: Gazza126 on Nov 22, 2007 4:05 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Because if they had, they would know that part of the metholdology involved the researchers asking to see death certificates. And in 90 percent of cases, they were produced.

Similarly, if they had read the report, they would know the researchers were not interested in the causes of the high fatality rate. They only wanted to know what it actually was. (The American military certainly isn't going to tell us. Thery have an official policy of not counting civilian casualties.)

Its ironic that one of the official reasons for entering Iraq (I know, I know) was the estimated 1.2 million Saddam was alleged to have killed during his 20 plus years in power. Six years of occupation and we've most likely already equalled that number.

Let's hear it for American know-how and ingenuity.

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I Accuse
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Posted by: P. Hermes on Nov 22, 2007 5:39 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My mother's entire family was murdered by Hitler's Nazis and their syncophants. So I stand here today to say:

I accuse you, George W. Bush
I accuse you Richard B. Cheney
I accuse you Donald Rumsfeld
I accuse you Condoleezza Rice
I accuse you all, and all your self serving syncophants of the most heinous of human crimes:

Wanton mass murder of a likely million or more innocents in a war of pure convenience and brutality.

And...

I demand that you all be arrested and tried before a tribunal of both your fellow citizens and the world at large, thereupon to meet your fate such as you had inflicted upon those many innocents.

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» RE: I Accuse Posted by: justicenow
» RE: I Accuse Posted by: Turiye
» RE: And I Accuse Israel! Posted by: pierrot

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We rule by chaos
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Posted by: Ambrose Pare on Nov 22, 2007 8:03 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
'We rule by chaos' is the ideal at play here, well quoted by Zionists.

Don't forget, the US are the pricks who armed Sadaam, and got him in power.

They arm the different factions and encourage them to fight. They kill each other, and innocents as well. Total Chaos.

After a few more years of Chaos, the Iraqi people will be so worn down by civil war they probably will accept the US puppet government to be installed.

This is a Genocide, the use of DU weapons will kill millions over time. I think we should give Israel to the Iraqi people for their suffering. Sounds fair to me.

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There is still time!
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Posted by: Jersey Devil on Nov 22, 2007 9:58 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As the killing goes on - a couple of air dropped nukes in Iran will quickly ratchet up the body count of innocent civilians to one that can make us all proud.

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baby
[Report this comment]
Posted by: granny52 on Nov 22, 2007 10:36 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"GOD HELP US".

http://uruknet.info/?p=m38464&hd=&size=1&l=e

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Here they go again!
[Report this comment]
Posted by: foreverhope on Nov 23, 2007 3:47 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
An organization, Unity08, is trying to form a new third party to run a "bi-partisan dream team" to upset the election next year.

They have a glossy marketing and advertising campaign, a tv star spokesperson from Law and Order, and claim to have 115,480 very angry voters ready to cast a ballot for whatever they are cooking up.

The website is elaborate and very consumer friendly, lots of bells and whistles. They are proposing to 'reinvent' our democracy.

Unity08 is putting together what they are calling their "American Agendy". God only knows what they mean by that.

The republican strategist at the "top" is said in a 1996 interview that he could get Hitler elected by the Bahai.

I can smell rabid right winger neocons, and that place stinks to high heaven. Unity08 is an elaborate internet hoax, a dog and pony show. I don't want a glossy marketing campaign, with some new wave third party, being strategized by a highly qualified republican, setting up an online scam to upset the democratic process next year or any year.

Take a really good hard look at Unity08 and get in on their American Agenda, "light a torch for freedom", and get the word out to others wherever you can.

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» RE: Here they go again! Posted by: foreverhope
» RE: Here they go again! Posted by: JOHN L.

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denial has been going on since long before WWII
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Posted by: jingles on Nov 23, 2007 4:17 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I didn't see anything about Americans in denial, or at best delusion, of the systematic extermination in bodies and culture of the Indigenous Americans, which is the real original 100% authentic American-style Holocaust Denial, so I thought I'd mention it. Yay Thanksgiving.

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Anti-Semmite or anti-Zionist?
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Posted by: lc on Nov 23, 2007 5:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In an earlier post about Jews ruling the US media and policy, I was attacked as being antisemitic. How typical. Maybe others out there would like to stop pulling their punches and call out Israel for its Zionist policies rather than have some religious zealot dismiss everything with their favorite nonsense response to any messenger and message the Jews don't like
Typical irrational religious reaction: Denial of truth. How dare I say anything against Israel even if they are guilty just like Bush. Stick to the facts without ranting Antisemitism. Why did you not also accuse me of anti-Christian-ism? Why is there only a word for expressing anti-Zionist sentiment but not anti-American. Zion is a country just like Americanism is represented by a country. I can attack America's policies and not be called an anti-Christian but if I dare to attack Israeli Zionist policy I am called antisemitic.
This Jewish policy of crying and attacking the messenger all the time while denying the message is going to be the end of Israel.
IM
Belteshazzar

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When the meat hits the fan
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Posted by: b4upoo on Nov 23, 2007 7:41 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wouldn't argue that a million folks have perished in the Iraq conflict. What we can not measure is whether the slaughter house effect might have been worse if the US had stayed at home. There are numerous factions wanting to use violence within Iraq as well as nations like Turkey that mull over the notion of stomping Iraq out of the history books. So we might actually be a peace
keeper relative to the situation rather than an aggressor. Frankly as long as terrorism is likely we have plenty of moral justification for letting loose on any nation that in any way contributes to terrorism.

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» RE: When the meat hits the fan Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» Tsk..tsk..tsk Posted by: Thetorganization

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Not the Reason
[Report this comment]
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Nov 23, 2007 7:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Amazingly, some journalists and editors - and of course some politicians - dismiss such measurements because they are based on random sampling of the population rather than a complete count of the dead.

They dismiss the measurements, but not for that reason. They dismiss the measurements because they don't like the results of the study. If a random study supported their desired story-line then they would be giving the Lancet study front-page headlines until everyone in the country could recite the results in their sleep.

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DUHHH It's a war
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Posted by: Ky Lake Dave on Nov 23, 2007 8:16 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Iraq invaded Kuwait. The USA along with many allies pushed Iraq back. Iraq broke over 150 UN RESOLUTIONS, breaking the ceasefire. The President declaried an end to the ceasefire. And with both houses voting we resumed the war against Iraq. We have been at war with Iraq since. In War People Die. The side that kills the most of the other side wins. The side that dies the most loses. That is a cruel fact of war. The USA or President Bush did not invent the concept. The more more fighting souls a leader sends against superior force the more fighting souls that side will lose. I blame the insergent leaders. If insergents wish to keep dying then they just need to keep attacking the greatest fighting force in the history of mankind. The war is turning in Iraq. We have the upper hand and we will be victorious. Democrats and Progressives have spent so much of they're political future on the USA losing that they just are unable to embrace VICORY. We will do wonderful things for the Iraq people and the rest of the middle east may see the example of hope and freedom and I pray they will follow the example a free Iraq will be.

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» RE: DUHHH It's a war Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: DUHHH It's a war Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: 'Penis'-oops, I mean pistol envy Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» DUHHH It's the OIL! Posted by: bigbad
» RE: DUHHH It's the OIL! Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: DUHHH It's the OIL! Posted by: zorro
» RE: DUHHH It's the OIL! Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: DUHHH It's a war Posted by: maestra
» RE: DUHHH It's a f*^king cretin! Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: DUHHH It's a f*^king cretin! Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: DUHHH The f*^king cretin is waving his flag! Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: DUHHH It's a f*^king cretin! Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: DUHHH It's a f*^king cretin! Posted by: Ky Lake Dave
» RE: DUHHH It's a war Posted by: harryf200
» RE: Ky Lake Dave Dipshit Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: DUHHH It's a war Posted by: nesNYC

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Amerika needs to acknowledge the genocide in Vietnam before
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Posted by: PakiBoy on Nov 23, 2007 8:47 AM   
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moving on to 'Eye-Rak'....

How many innocent people did you guys kill in Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam? Around 4 million...The use of chemical weapons (agent orange) in Vietnam is still causing wide-spread damage including birth-defects and death by horrible diseases

A recent estimate puts the death toll by agent orange at 500,000 and another 650,000 suffering from the diseases caused by Agent Orange.

So before moving on to Eye-Rak, why don't we set up tribunals to try every single member of the US administrations starting with JFK to the present regime in the Whitehouse for war crimes in Vietnam.

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The Big Three Dicks, er, Religions.
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Posted by: lc on Nov 23, 2007 8:42 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jew, Muslim, and Christian all circumcise as members of the same "covenant" they all share. The Big Three Religions have been leading all of us around by our dicks for so long we don't know who is screwing whom. Or is it, whom is screwing who? Who's on first: Jew, Christian or Muslim? Antisemitic, anti-religion, or patriotic belief in separation of church and state? In the case of Israel and its Zionist policy, their "church" is "the state." Israel/Zion is the exact opposite of the US Constitution separating Church and State: a no win situation for all of us being led around by our little heads, the cult of the covenant of the chopped cocks.
IM
Belteshazzar
AntiChrist is US

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xtiml
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Posted by: xtiml on Nov 23, 2007 10:53 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This story assumes that the ww2 genocide of jews is a fact, when in fact it is a disturbing lie foisted by zionist interests.The facts are on line if anyone cares to look into the matter.The holocaust was of the german people, the truth is the opposite use of projection is a sick minds tool. read about the jews declared war on germany in 1932.america sided with the worst butcher of the century and churchhill and eisenhour decimated the civilian populatuion of germany during and after the war.Look up the morganthou plan.churchhill,stalin and eisenhour were all jews.. The germans have been villified, demonized, and lied about magnificently and our countries have betrayed us.americas rulers have betrayed us since 1913.who owns major media in usa? hmmmm? there was no jewish genocide in ww2 The genicide was on the germans.

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» RE: Beware xtiml Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive

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Nazis were Christians
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Posted by: lc on Nov 23, 2007 11:32 AM   
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The Nazis were a political party made up of conservative fanatics and a subservient German population of good little German Christians. The Nazis were a political party of Christians. The Republican party is a political party of Christian conservatives. In both cases, their party has a "higher" calling, a "greater" good that "history will recognize."
The Whores of Babylon are in Denial
IM
Belteshazzar

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The statistics ...
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Posted by: harryf200 on Nov 23, 2007 2:16 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is far too simplistic to say trusting sampled statistics is okay in this, or any other, instance. Much depends on the robustness of the sample - i.e. how it was selected and its size. Poor sampling procedures will produce unreliable statistics, and a sample that is too small will also produce the same. As the adage goes, rubbish in, rubbish out. So, without knowing how the sampling was done, and without seeing the sample size, I would regard the stats to be unproven.

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» RE: The statistics ... Posted by: werewolf
» RE: The statistics ... Posted by: CJC

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1 is Too Many
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Posted by: gary_7vn on Nov 23, 2007 3:11 PM   
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I will go with the low number given by your blood drenched president. 30,000. 30,000 dead. Why? Some one please explain.

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xtiml, reporting just the facts mam.
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Posted by: xtiml on Nov 23, 2007 6:21 PM   
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such as heetler did not vant de var, But stalin,churchhill and roozevelt did.germany let the brits escape at dunkirk.stalin.If you read for yourself and not let others tell you what the history is you might be able to discern which is true history and which is snot.in other words the popular common held beliefs of people(which the people believe are facts but are lies believed)and thus you have it.The germans were actually the saints and the jewish churchill the ungrateful german hater, along with his master zionist stalin the best killer in history, and the jewish crippled roosenvelt who had ideas of grandiosity but wound up a disposable tissue of the zionistas, It is a sad tale of woe and misery, betrayal and greed,secrecy and intimidation,magalomania and cruelty,ingnorance,stupidity and just plain meanness, you are lucky to have the americans for your current exploitation, we after all are such nincompoops.

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» RE: xtiml, running at the bowels. Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: xtiml, . Posted by: xtiml

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A Bestial Nation Executes a GENOCIDE!
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Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive on Nov 24, 2007 11:43 AM   
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What possible good could come of trying to identify the kill-count in Iraq. If it were a thousand or 500,000, it IS STILL A GENOCIDE!! The morgues in Iraq have been innundated by bodies and parts of bodies and WE ARE RESPONSIBLE! The Iraqi soil is soaked in the blood and entrails of thousands of Iraqi men, women, and children and WE ARE RESPONSIBLE. Over a Million Iraqis have left their homes for other countries.

Our Veterans Hospitals are overflowing with the maimed and limbless of the Iraqi madness and WE ARE RESPONSIBLE! Thousands of families have interred their soldiers into the ground and been given an American Flag as a meaningless symbol of that last full measure!

What was all the killing for! Why are there still flag-waving assholes who are so PROUD of our killers and what we have done. Has this bestial war allowed all the cowardly to posture as flag-waving patriots pining for the day our killers can come home so they can share in their killing "glory" parades?

The thought of the countless dead and maimed that occurred in my name is sickening and wretched. I cannot think about it without great sadness. When will it all end?

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Ironic but America's uinsured are dieing in the same numbers
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Posted by: B. Spoon on Nov 24, 2007 2:25 PM   
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...and nobody seems to give a hoot about that. Both "official" tallies (Americans dead because of our health (un)insurance industry, and Iraqi civilians dead because of our invasion) are about the same, but both are also most probably grotesquely undercounted. Nobody who might be able to if they would only try, is counting real numbers reliably. Plus the profit-driven health insurance industry is costing our country about six times more than Iraq ($600 billion per year we spend but it diverts away from health care, and rising fast, out of $2.1 trillion total). That's a lot of wasted dollars.

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i think it's wrong
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Posted by: hellofriends on Nov 24, 2007 10:01 PM   
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to assume that body counts = genocide. it's the intention that matters. the intention never was to slaughter as many iraqis as possible.

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Not Surprised
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Posted by: SonOfBaldwin on Nov 25, 2007 7:32 AM   
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This comes as no surprise. America has been denying its various holocausts since its inception: Native American genocide and African middle passage, enslavement and lynching.

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» xtiml Posted by: xtiml

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A Thirty Second War
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Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com on Nov 26, 2007 3:07 PM   
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Watch any TV news report about the war in Iraq and it's neatly packaged into a thirty-second sound bite, usually focusing on "the troops" or quoting some clueless general or one of Bush's henchmen sent in to keep civilian deaths under wraps.
Counting civilian casualties is an arduous assignment because the numbers will be inflated.
For example, Korean war dead numbered into the millions. Why? Because there were no military targets; the whole country was like one enormous ant colony and when you concentrate overwhelming firepower and bombs on population centers, you get a high death toll.
Why are so many Iraqis dying? U.S. firepower is trained on their cities and civilians can't flee the maelstrom when checkpoints are everywhere and the U.S. military confiscates people's cars. And let's not forget the daily aerial bombing assaults by the air force.
TV reporters are increasingly reluctant to venture with a camera into danger zones to get the truth. You'll never get an accurate assessment of war deaths from "officials." They can't venture far from the Green Zone without bodyguards. That's why you don't see too many documentaries about Iraqi war deaths-yet. And by the time a camera crew arrives the mess will be cleaned up. All in thirty seconds. Cut to a commercial.

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How to change this problem
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Posted by: opeluboy on Nov 27, 2007 5:38 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Simple, really.

All the remaining Iraqis convert en masse to Judaism.

Then someone would give a fuck.

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Vietnam: American Holocaust
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Posted by: clayclaiborne on Nov 28, 2007 3:00 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
America killed 5 million Vietnamese. I made a documentary about it. You can see it here:

Vietnam: American Holocaust

and here's what we did to the Koreans

Kill Them All

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Could George be the Antichrist? I know farfetched, but read the webpage below....
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Posted by: GWBSUCKS on Nov 28, 2007 11:22 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Read this webpage below, and toss in a few words what you think? It is a weird website that has an amazing profound plausibility, if you believe in Religion?

http://www.bushisantichrist.com/

The founder of the website has done some serious homework.

Please read and comment. I believe this post on holocaust has some bearing on the website above.

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children stand to be set up for cancer
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Posted by: KeithRichardRadfordJr on Dec 1, 2007 7:17 PM   
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I am for Health Care but not when your children stand to be set up for cancer.

In 1992 I was implanted with a microchip by the California Department of Corrections.

Just like the Angel of Death* HaloScan, IBM, Avid, Veri Chip and other company's use subcutaneous human tracking device, audio servalence systems and other venues against American people for fun and profit.

Since the Nuremberg trials the Nuremberg code of universal medical ethics have moved into California's Silicon Valley which is being protected by our own governments representatives.

The national fraud squad has opened an investigation into the affair. The four are suspected of abuse, aggravated assault, causing death through negligence, fraud, forgery, breach of statutory duty, and disruption of legal proceedings.

*Dr. Josef Mengele was a German SS officer and a physician in the German Nazi concentration camp performing human experiments on camp inmates, amongst whom Mengele was known as the Angel of Death.

Since 1987, Nancy Pelosi has represented California's Eighth District in the House of Representatives wile being on the board of Veri Chip.

Tommy Thompson, who approved RFID chips for use in humans back when he was serving under Bush as Secretary of Health & Human Services, is getting $40,000 a year from Applied Digital Solutions (the company that owns VeriChip) and has received company stock worth about $1 million.

As California's senior Senator, Dianne Feinstein has built her reputation on condoning torture, working with both Democrats and Republicans to find solutions to the problems facing California and the Nation court who have chosen to ignore human and civil right.

You Worthless Tech Trollops have been instrumental in working toward a North American Union. When will America wake up to the fact that our government knows human nature. Using sex offenders to justify their actions when what they are doing is universally wrong, is underhanded at least and fundamentally treasonous by using devices that are unsafe. Hiding the finding of company's product and placing humans at risk seems to be of no consequence to those that take them to court on habeas corpus writs.

I was told by my attorney that my case was demurer which means the state says so what.
So what if we treat you like a lab rat.
So what if you are diabetic and need to enroll in Adult Swim at your YMCA because of injuries for exercise.
So what if you are disabled and we made you move.
So what if you live a good honest life.
So what if when we made you move you were going to school to learn a trade and we disrupted your life during your finals and you could not finish your training.
So what if you and your wife who by the way has never done anything to anyone is waking in the middle of the night crying because you stand to be homeless for fear that no one will rent to you.
We lived in an apartment in Burbank CA when someone decided to place flyer's at our home about my 23 year old sex offense and get us kicked out of our home. So what.

Reminds me of the Quote by Pastor Martin Niemöller:
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.
We have one week to come up with a bunch of money to fight for rights for all Americans who are losing because they are better than sex offenders till their family member loses their trunks when diving into the community pool.
Sorry America we have no money. When these laws get done with us, they will not be satisfied.

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Massive death count, yes. Genocide? No.
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Posted by: lore on Dec 4, 2007 6:33 AM   
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You're right that the slaughter in Iraq is terrible. There has been torture. There have been thousands of deaths. The Western media has reported only on American deaths. The Bush administration has said all of these deaths serve a greater good.

But calling it a genocide or Holocaust is simply inaccurate (and, quite frankly, it's that sort of impassioned, not-quite-accurate radical rhetoric that allows you to be discredited by the powers that be in government). Look up "genocide" in any dictionary, and you'll see that the term refers to the systematic extermination of a group of people based on their nationality, race, religion, sexuality, etc.

While the majority of casualties in Iraq have indeed been Iraqis, it's important to remember that many of those have been spurred by Iraqis themselves. I also question whether it was really the United States' intent to wipe out the Iraqi people when we went into Iraq. Bush's goal was to get rid Iraqi of every remnant of Saddam Hussein and his elusive weapons of mass destruction. A better example of genocide is Saddam Hussein's attempt to exterminate the Kurds. There's a group of people who were singled out ad killed simply because of who they were. They were not killing each other.

So before you try and stone me and call me a Zionist or something along those lines, keep this in mind: I'm not denying the huge death toll. I'm not denying that the U.S. military has been largely responsible for many of those deaths. I am not denying that this war was a mistake from the beginning. What I am suggesting is that we need to think about how we frame the discussion so that people will take criticism of the war seriously.

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