COMMENTS: 268
Why We Shouldn't Celebrate Thanksgiving
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I expected criticism from right-wing and centrist people, given their common commitment to this country's distorted self-image that supports the triumphalist/supremacist notions about the United States so common in conventional politics, and I got plenty of such critique. But I was surprised by the resistance from liberals, including a considerable number of my friends.
The most common argument went something like this: OK, it's true that the Thanksgiving Day mythology is rooted in a fraudulent story -- about the European invaders coming in peace to the "New World," eager to cooperate with indigenous people -- which conveniently ignores the reality of European barbarism in the conquest of the continent. But we can reject the culture's self-congratulatory attempts to rewrite history, I have been told, and come together on Thanksgiving to celebrate the love and connections among family and friends.
The argument that we can ignore the collective cultural definition of Thanksgiving and create our own meaning in private has always struck me as odd. This commitment to Thanksgiving puts these left/radical critics in the position of internalizing one of the central messages promoted by the ideologues of capitalism -- that individual behavior in private is more important than collective action in public. The claim that through private action we can create our own reality is one of the key tenets of a predatory corporate capitalism that naturalizes unjust hierarchy, a part of the overall project of discouraging political struggle and encouraging us to retreat into a private realm where life is defined by consumption.
So this November, rather than mount another attack on the national mythology around Thanksgiving -- a mythology that amounts to a kind of holocaust denial, and which has been critiqued for many years by many people -- I want to explore why so many who understand and accept this critique still celebrate Thanksgiving, and why rejecting such celebrations sparks such controversy.
Once we know, what do we do?
At this point in history, anyone who wants to know this reality of U.S. history -- that the extermination of indigenous peoples was, both in a technical, legal sense and in common usage, genocide -- can easily find the resources to know. If this idea is new, I would recommend two books, David E. Stannard's American Holocaust: Columbus and the Conquest of the New World and Ward Churchill's A Little Matter of Genocide. While the concept of genocide, which is defined as the deliberate attempt "to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group," came into existence after World War II, it accurately describes the program that Europeans and their descendants pursued to acquire the territory that would become the United States of America.
Once we know that, what do we do? The moral response -- that is, the response that would be consistent with the moral values around justice and equality that most of us claim to hold -- would be a truth-and-reconciliation process that would not only correct the historical record but also redistribute land and wealth. In the white-supremacist and patriarchal society in which we live, operating within the parameters set by a greed-based capitalist system, such a process is hard to imagine in the short term. So, the question for left/radical people is: What political activity can we engage in to keep alive this kind of critique until a time when social conditions might make a truly progressive politics possible?
In short: Once we know, what do we do in a world that is not yet ready to know, or knows but will not deal with the consequences of that knowledge?
The general answer to that question is simple, though often difficult to put into practice: We must keep speaking honestly, as often as possible, in as many venues as possible. We must resist the conventional wisdom. We must reject the cultural amnesia. We must refuse to be polite when politeness means capitulation to lies.
I have not always been strong enough to meet even these basic moral obligations. Most of us in positions of unearned privilege and power would be wise to avoid pontificating about our moral superiority and political courage, given our routine failures. Can any of us not point to moments when we went along to get along? Have any of us done enough to bring our lives in line with the values we claim to hold?
Still, we need to help each other tell the truth, even when the truth is not welcome.
The illusion of redefining Thanksgiving
Imagine that Germany won World War II and that a Nazi regime endured for some decades, eventually giving way to a more liberal state with a softer version of German-supremacist ideology. Imagine that a century later, Germans celebrated a holiday offering a whitewashed version of German/Jewish history that ignored that holocaust and the deep anti-Semitism of the culture. Imagine that the holiday provided a welcomed time for families and friends to gather and enjoy food and conversation. Imagine that businesses, schools and government offices closed on this day.
What would we say about such a holiday? Would we not question the distortions woven into such a celebration? Would we not demand a more accurate historical account? Would we not, in fact, denounce such a holiday as grotesque?
Now, imagine that left/liberal Germans -- those who were critical of the power structure that created that distorted history and who in other settings would challenge the political uses of those distortions -- put aside their critique and celebrated the holiday with their fellow citizens, claiming to ignore the meaning of the holiday created by the dominant culture.
What would we say about such people? Would we not question their commitment to the principles they claim to hold? Would we not demand a more courageous politics?
Comparisons to the Nazis are routinely overused and typically hyperbolic, but this is directly analogous. These are fair, albeit painful, questions for all of us.
Left/liberals who want to claim they are rejecting that European-supremacist and racist use of Thanksgiving and "redefining" the holiday in private clearly avoid the obvious: We don't define holidays individually -- the idea of a holiday is rooted in its collective, shared meaning. When the dominant culture defines a holiday in a certain fashion, one can't pretend to redefine it in private. One either accepts the dominant definition or resists it, publicly and privately.
Of course people often struggle for control over the meaning of symbols and holidays, but typically we engage in such battles when we believe there is some positive aspect of the symbol or holiday worth fighting for. For example, Christians -- some of whom believe that Christmas should focus on the values of universal love and world peace rather than on orgiastic consumption -- may resist that commercialization and argue in public and private for a different approach to the holiday. Those people typically continue to celebrate Christmas, but in ways consistent with those values. In that case, people are trying to recover and/or reinforce something that they believe is positive because of values rooted in a historical tradition. Those folks struggle over the meaning of Christmas because they believe the core of Christianity is experienced through the people we touch, not the products we purchase. In that endeavor, Christians are arguing the culture has gone astray and lost the positive, historical grounding of the holiday.
But what is positive in the historical events that define Thanksgiving? What tradition are we trying to return to? I have no quarrel with designating a day (or days) that would allow people to take a break from our often manic work routines and appreciate the importance of community, encouraging all of us to be grateful for what we have. But if that is the goal, why yoke it to Thanksgiving Day and a history of celebrating European/white dominance and conquest? Trying to transform Thanksgiving Day into a true day of thanksgiving, it seems to me, is possible only by letting go of this holiday, not by remaining rooted in it. If there were a major shift in the culture and a majority of people could confront these historical realities, perhaps the last Thursday in November could be so transformed. But that shift and transformation are, to say the least, not yet here.
For too long, I ignored these troubling questions. To get along, I went along. I buried my concerns to avoid making trouble. But in recent years that has become more difficult. So, this year I want to acknowledge my past failures to raise these issues and commit not only to renouncing Thanksgiving publicly but also to refusing to participate in any celebration of it privately.
The choices: Make people comfortable by engaging or by disengaging
Obviously there are people in the United States -- indigenous and otherwise -- who do not celebrate Thanksgiving or who mark it, in private and/or in public, as a day of mourning.
Also obvious is that there are people who may not have a family or community with which they celebrate such holidays; it's important to remember that there are people on such holidays who are alone and/or lonely, and to them these political questions may seem irrelevant.
But for those of us who do get invited to traditional Thanksgiving Day dinners, how do we remain true to our stated political and moral principles? I think we have two choices.
We can go to the Thanksgiving gatherings put on by friends and family, determined to raise these issues and willing to take the risk of alienating those who want to enjoy the day without politics. Or, we can refuse to go to such a gathering and make it known why we're not attending, which means taking the risk of alienating those who want to enjoy the day without politics.
This year, I've decided to disengage and explain why to the people who invited me. These are people I love, yet who have made a different decision. My love for them has not diminished, and I trust the conversation with them about this and other political/moral questions will continue.
Once I make that decision, of course, I also have the option of participating in a public event that resists Thanksgiving. I'm not aware of one happening in my community, and because of commitments to other political projects, I didn't feel I could organize an effective event in time for this Thanksgiving Day. But on the assumption that others may feel this way, I have started thinking about what kind of public gathering could make such a political statement effectively, and in the future I hope to find others who are interested in such an event locally.
So, what will I do on Thanksgiving Day this year? I'll probably spend part of the day alone. Maybe I'll take a long walk and think about all this. I'll try to be kind and decent to the people I bump into during the day. I'll miss the company of friends and family who are gathering, and I'll try to reflect on why I've made this choice and why this question matters to me. I'll think about why others made the choices they made.
But this year, whatever I do, I won't celebrate Thanksgiving. I'm going to let that parade pass me by.
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Posted by: Jungle Boy on Nov 22, 2007 1:31 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I received an email asking me to "Have a Happy Turkey Day!!! I replied that most of the turkeys are not happy today!
In the 17th Century(maybe in the 15th, as well), the Pope said it was OK to kill the Indians because they were heathens that would not come to GOD. Today, some would say the same about Muslims. I'm not sure what the justification the Aussies used for the Aborigines.
The regular people in the movie, The Matrix, didn't want to know the Truth and neither do the "regular" people today!
Eat the bird, watch football, then hurry to the sales going on the next day--gotta shop early for Xmas.
Great to hear of someone who is waking up!!
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» At least one turkey is spared a torturous death..we're eating TOFURKEY
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» Hard to live right
Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: At least one turkey is spared a torturous death..we're eating TOFURKEY
Posted by: veg4peace
» RE: Jungle Boy
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: corgyn on Nov 22, 2007 2:24 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seems a vein of serious quilt problems runs through all your writings - white men, porn & thanksgiving - what an uplifting set of specialties.
If you'll pardon a bit of amateur analysis.... I some how envision your private life as this secret BDSM acolyte cringing in a dungeon as your big mistress [of color of course] beats the shit out of you in atonement for what ever haunts you. Is that what you'll do today rather than have dinner? Sounds good to me.....
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» RE: Wow, talk about Freudian slips...
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» If you can get away with it do it! Like turning in the same school paper
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: If you can get away with it do it! Like turning in the same school paper
Posted by: PopRox80
» By your bizarre thinking we should be blaming the Chinese unto this day
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» RE: If you can get away with it do it! Like turning in the same school paper
Posted by: werewolf
» So, what is the problem with repetition?
Posted by: wisegalah
» Fabulous -- Left and Right Agree BDSM = "Somethingwrongwitchu"
Posted by: BenCaxton12
» RE: Wow, talk about Freudian slips...
Posted by: dmaciewski
» RE: Third Year of same rant!
Posted by: wilty
» RE: Corgyn: Freudian slip-shod is more like it!!
Posted by: wilty
» Actually.. BDSM is about happiness
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» AlterNets rules don't apply to you?
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» Dick Cheney! get back to the table...
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» RE: Third Year of same rant!
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» RE: Wrong target!
Posted by: kwms
» Re: Rant on. It's for the uninformed not "rereaders"!
Posted by: common intelligence
» Deja Vu
Posted by: Cathyblj
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Posted by: UnEasyOne on Nov 22, 2007 3:49 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am willing to acknowledge what some of my ancestors did (some were on the receiving end) and I am more than willing to celebrate Native American culture in any reasonable way.
Jenson is welcome to do what he wants on the holiday but what he suggests isn't gonna catch on. In general, the American people ain't any more into national guilt trips than I am. This has become a day to get together and celebrate family. What he suggests just ain't gonna happen.
Thanksgiving and Native American recognition day is fine with me - and I am all for teaching schoolchildren about the barbarity of both sides - with an eye to explaining the unequal effect it had on the one side and the ruthless efficiency of the other in the extermination/genocide of millions.
The only real effect widespread calls to turn this popular holiday into a national day of atonement before the real (rather than Hollywood) history of the conflict is widely known would be to engender hostility without the possibility of success.
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» RE: I am not into guilt trips
Posted by: outragedDaily
» RE: I am not into guilt trips
Posted by: Angel1961
» RE: I am not into guilt trips
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: I am not into guilt trips
Posted by: moflard
» Actually, the natives should be thankful the Russian's didn't
Posted by: psychochurch
» They can't be thankful for anything.
Posted by: Coleman
» RE: They can't be thankful for anything.
Posted by: dmaciewski
» RE: Actually, the natives should be thankful the Russian's didn't
Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Actually, the natives should be thankful the Russian's didn't
Posted by: moflard
» RE: I am not into guilt trips/not on Thanksgiving, anyway
Posted by: marinoclone
» RE: I am not into guilt trips
Posted by: werewolf
» It is nothing to do with guilt.
Posted by: wisegalah
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Posted by: jackburns on Nov 22, 2007 4:00 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I discuss these issues privately with my wife and children and other family members willing to listen. I privately reflect on my own thoughts during the "prayer," the meal and the day.
Being an ogre sure won't get people to listen. About the best you can hope for is for someone to ask you why you feel this way. I believe they have to initiate the conversation, and even then, you have to proceed with care.
I always like to point out that it's day of joy and sadness for me. Joy of being with my family. Sadness for all the reasons noted.
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» Family is the worst possible institution and must be broken if we are ever
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» RE: Family is the worst possible institution and must be broken if we are ever
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Family is the worst possible institution and must be broken if we are ever
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» RE: Family is the worst possible institution and must be broken if we are ever
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» RE: Family is the worst possible institution and must be broken if we are ever
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» RE: Family is the worst possible institution and must be broken if we are ever listened to YOU
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» RE: Family is the worst possible institution and must be broken if we are ever
Posted by: undrgrndgirl
» Stalin betrayed socialism that prior to his depotic reign was trying
Posted by: albrechtkrausse
» You are being sarcastic, right, albrecht?
Posted by: mjabele
» dude....stop copying my "screech headline" technique...
Posted by: psychochurch
» RE: Family is the worst possible institution and must be broken if we are ever
Posted by: sixshooter
» I dont know which is worse...
Posted by: Iconoclast421
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Nov 22, 2007 4:29 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Here we go again...
Posted by: wisegalah
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Posted by: Freedomrider on Nov 22, 2007 4:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Then let's tell the truth about turkey suffering
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Then let's tell the truth about turkey suffering
Posted by: Ellie F.
» RE: Thanksgiving
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Thanksgiving
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
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Posted by: jesem on Nov 22, 2007 4:44 AM
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Posted by: jakobci on Nov 22, 2007 4:59 AM
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» RE: thanklessgiving
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» RE: thanklessgiving
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» RE: thanklessgiving
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» RE: thanklessgiving
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» RE: thanklessgiving
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» RE: thanklessgiving
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Posted by: pcushniesr on Nov 22, 2007 5:03 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's called "cutting off your nose to spite your own face." I choose to be with my daughter and grandchildren, but I promise to insert some chat about the Thanksgiving mythos to give the young ones something to chew on besides food.
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» RE: Cutting off your nose...
Posted by: Lauren
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Posted by: mjabele on Nov 22, 2007 5:02 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One problem with attributing guilt in a "hereditary" fashion is that it's almost always possible for those whom one is pointing fingers at to respond by finding similar examples of persecution in their own pasts. Mass killing, either directly racially motivated or "with ethnic overtones", has been common throughout European history for centuries if not millenia. I won't comment about Asia because I'm less familiar with that continent's history, but I suspect from what I do know that it's not much different. Indeed, from what I've read, some Native American civilizations were not all that much "kinder" toward each other than the Europeans who came afterward.
By all means, we need to confront and rectify what's been done by European-Americans to Native Americans during the previous history of this country. I personally think this is something we should focus on every day rather than just on a single holiday, and, in terms of raising awareness, should perhaps be emphasizing in our education of young people more than anything else.
But Mr. Jensen's campaign to eliminate the Thanksgiving holiday - beyond the fact that it would never work (I'm sure folks would simply continue to celebrate "in secret") - strikes me as little more than a liberal form of vengeance-based thinking. As he points out, this holiday serves as an occasion for families to reunite - not as some sort of commemoration of the Native American genocide - and hence its abolition would merely remove a joyful annual event from the holiday calendar without providing any sort of compensatory relief, or any meaningful historical correlation in people's minds to past events, for that matter. Moreover, beyond the fact that designating a different day of the year to "give thanks" and reunite with family would, in a political sense, probably defeat the original purpose of abolishing the official Thanksgiving holiday, it's a bit doubtful that such a new celebration would ever "catch on" - which is perhaps precisely the point, given that I suspect Mr. Jensen's ultimate objective is really to chastise the descendants of the "genocidaires", rather than enlighten them.
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» RE: Liberals should not be Negative--Look for Positives and draw others to us
Posted by: Len Miller
» RE: Alas, not all of us are as self-sacrificing and deep-thinking as Mr. Jensen...
Posted by: dmaciewski
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Posted by: grumble-bum on Nov 22, 2007 5:03 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Afterwards, I'll be too tired to deal with any gathering, let alone cook anything myself.
So for two years, now, Jensen has been flogging this concept, & he keeps climbing the battlements. Apparently, a few folks agree, although a vast majority thinks otherwise. Well, keep plugging away, Rob. I'd suggest taking on Christmas next (to atone for the repressions of organized Christianity over the millenia), or perhaps Hanukkah (in commiseration with the Palestinians). Or maybe MLK day, 'cause of, you know, those misogynistic thug rappers...?!? You'll get a lot of hits for Alternet for that one, I guarantee it!
I don't celebrate Columbus Day, because it's a holiday set aside to commemorate a particular man, well known to be a particularly nasty jerk. But that doesn't mean I'm going to go around offering my opinions to those who do, unasked for. Nor does it mean that I feel poorly that this hemisphere was "discovered", in general.
The real shame here, in my opinion, is that Jensen is a fairly good, thoughtful writer, who's heart is often in the right place in some ways. The problem for me is that everything he touches is wrapped up in such a profound muddle of guilt. If he feels he must go through life as some sort of martyr for the worlds sins, so be it, but past a certain point, he really needs to stop trying to pull us all down with him.
I was raised in a Progressive Christian home, & as long as I can remember, all holidays (including this one) were approached with thoughtfulness & acknowledgment of the uglier side. & by all means, there should be a national day of atonement to the original peoples of this place. But to push so stridently to have it replace a well-loved tradition such as Thanksgiving is hopeless, & needlessly abrasive. Good luck, dude.
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Posted by: KCDC on Nov 22, 2007 5:11 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Childish
Posted by: Angel1961
» It's not quite as childish as you make out, actually...
Posted by: mjabele
» You have not offered a refutation...
Posted by: Coleman
» Jensen's proposal...
Posted by: mjabele
» "For all of You that hate the US..." ROFLMA!!!!!
Posted by: sausage
» RE: "For all of You that hate the US..." ROFLMA!!!!!
Posted by: MAD
» Thanks, MAD.
Posted by: mjabele
» This is an insult???
Posted by: sausage
» RE: In My Humble Opinion
Posted by: George Fleming
» RE: In My Humble Opinion
Posted by: Ex-Marine
» Why should I be the one to move?
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» RE: In My Humble Opinion
Posted by: Comfortably Yum
» I agree with the rest of your comments...
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» RE: In My Humble Opinion
Posted by: Kucinich lied
» RE: In My Humble Opinion
Posted by: rhinojos
» RE: In My Humble Opinion
Posted by: ALANHESTER
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Posted by: GPFrank on Nov 22, 2007 5:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
give up the opportunity to feed one's face?"
Actually, with so many people usually eating "New York style", i.e.; standing up, ready to rush to the next meeting, sitting down with the family is not such a bad idea.
But we also need to seek atonement, an emotional process difficult on a full stomach. We also should consider all the broken families and homelessness that is the cost of following the peculiar American religion of "privatization". A political statement but is there really anything "private" about being under corporate ownership? Is there anything "private" about the humiliation of handouts?
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Posted by: rocketman on Nov 22, 2007 5:49 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The way the US government has treated the native population of this country is truly a crime and one that to this day has not been made correct - if it ever could.
That said, the spirit of Thanksgiving really has little to do with the horror we brought upon the true Americans!
It celebrates the successful harvest, a tradition that was established not only in Europe but by the native Americans as well.
Consider this quote -
"Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor, and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me "to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness."" - no it's not George Bush but George Washington!!!!
So instead of trying to dismantle yet another tradition of this country, which was instituted before the horrors we eventually brought upon the natives of America, why not celebrate it and use it as a day to try to help better the plight of others!
Happy Thanksgiving to all you negative souls!
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» Ya, well if "Thanksgiving's" so noble...
Posted by: sausage
» RE: Ya, well if "Thanksgiving's" so noble...
Posted by: rocketman
» yeah, ignore the details.
Posted by: Coleman
» RE: yeah, ignore the details.
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: Happy Thanksgiving - the most noble of celebrations!
Posted by: George Fleming
» RE: Happy Thanksgiving - the most noble of celebrations!
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» RE: Happy Thanksgiving - the most noble of celebrations!
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» RE: Happy Thanksgiving - the most noble of celebrations!
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» RE: Happy Thanksgiving - the most noble of celebrations!
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» RE: Happy Thanksgiving - the most noble of celebrations!
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» RE: Happy Thanksgiving - the most noble of celebrations!
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: Happy Thanksgiving - the most noble of celebrations!
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» RE: Happy Thanksgiving - the most noble of celebrations!
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» RE: Happy Thanksgiving - the most noble of celebrations!
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» Continental
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» RE: Happy Thanksgiving - the most noble of celebrations!
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» RE: Happy Thanksgiving - the most noble of celebrations!
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» RE: Happy Thanksgiving - the most noble of celebrations!
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» RE: Happy Thanksgiving - the most noble of celebrations!
Posted by: omnivore
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Posted by: marrieah on Nov 22, 2007 6:06 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You have questioned the history of such celebrations and yes it is built on myth.
It's a collective myth of the whole country, perpetrated to ease the guilt one feels for living a lie.
But not participating is not going to change a thing. It's a national party. Realize what this party is about, make an appearance eat and be merry and all of that good stuff for a few hours, but before you go stop by one of the soup kitchens or something to that effect and contribute a hand.
True, the premise of the celebration of Thanksgiving is built on a lie, but at least in helping someone else enjoy the day, that's about 4 hours really, you will be giving them something to be thankful for if only for a few hours.
At the end of the day, it really about sharing, if only for a day, err 4 hours.
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» Another dodge.
Posted by: Coleman
» Spending 4 hours with family on a certain Thursday in November.....
Posted by: mjabele
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Posted by: jabstuart on Nov 22, 2007 6:19 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Still, as a pragmatist at heart, I take issue with your call to completely redefine the Thanksgiving holiday -- it's too ingrained in our culture. What do we gain by relabeling Thanksgiving as genocide? Whatever its history, it has come to symbolize coming together with family and friends and appreciating what we have in life. I totally agree that it's a collective and public holiday, but over time I do think the thanks people give have become more individual/personal in nature and not so much for a supposed peace between Europeans and Native Americans. The myths/lies/variations on the history of Thanksgiving are varied - if anything, they are diluting the "official" version, and reinforcing the personal meaning.
My proposal is this: we should leverage the good will and feelings of tolerance and appreciation that people harken on this holiday and use it to launch an annual public awareness/social marketing campaign. The goal of the campaign would be to correct historically inaccurate versions and celebrate the lessons learned. The first piece of it addresses truth and the second piece reconciliation. Getting at the truth should not be a blame fest or else we'll never get to reconciliation. We learn our biggest lessons from our mistakes, and to me the most important lesson from this history is tolerance. It is astounding the amount of tolerance many Native Americans have demonstrated despite the genocide and oppression of their people throughout U.S. history. We should be thankful for their lesson in being "civilized" and follow it as a model. There is much good to salvage from this holiday, and so much to leverage, it would be a waste to not recognize that insight and learning can be the fruits of wrongs and injustice. Your Holocaust example is a great example of this point. A good place to start with such a campaign might be learning from the work of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: never again. And to your point, why aren't the truths about this holiday featured on its home page?
Short of such a public awareness campaign taking place, perhaps a more pragmatic approach to reddressing the troubling history in which the holiday is rooted than renouncing/not participating in the holiday altogether would be to engage in a lively dinner table discussion. Afterall, conversation and food are a great combination. It's the perfect opportunity moment for a discussion with friends and family members who might have very different political perspectives and education levels about what are the real historical origins of the holiday, and why are there different versions of that history today? Rather than disengage, why not engage? On a final note, the origins of Thanksgiving are more than political - they are also historical and cultural. If framed on broader terms, perhaps you would be less likely to alienate people, and more likely to help them see your view of things. That is a classic tactic for any advocacy campaign.
Have a nice walk. I promise to engage in discussion about this with the family members I'll be visiting and eating with.
--Jennifer Bagnell Stuart
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» RE: Liberals should not be Negative--Look for Positives and draw others to us
Posted by: Len Miller
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Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle on Nov 22, 2007 6:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: If we're to have a national Day of Atonement...
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: If we're to have a national Day of Atonement...
Posted by: George Fleming
» RE: If we're to have a national Day of Atonement...
Posted by: George Fleming
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Posted by: wsx on Nov 22, 2007 6:40 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!
Posted by: wisegalah
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Posted by: topview on Nov 22, 2007 6:45 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe, Just maybe the poor working class in America will be happier next year when we take back this country from all those that have bought our Elected officials that are now exploiting another Country and mass killing the people for more resources and corporate greed.
Being bogged down in Iraq isn't slowing them down, as they are looking to destroying another country for more corporate greed at the expense of our young peoples lives and the lives that will be destroyed when we start to bomb Iran.
America has to wake up and stop this GENOCIDE before this country is completely torn apart for the greed of the FILTHY RICH.
Corporations don't Vote but the people do and we have to make that vote count where it will do the best to restore this country for all the people.
So celebrate today and tomorrow start the process to get our country away from the greedy corporations that are controlling every aspect of your life.
Fight for your rights, thats the only way we will be able to celebrate next year.
I suggest we force the impeachment that has already been started by one Grateful congressman Denis Kuchinich.At least it is a start to freedom from this Fascist controlled Government.
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Posted by: NewDeal on Nov 22, 2007 6:48 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Facts? Don't bother.
The relations of the Americans who were here before the large scale movement of Europeans and Africans and the interrelations of all those individuals and societies, is a complex and often contradictory story. Marriages, murders, alliances, betrayals and lots more.
Will this same author write an essay about March 22, 1622?
As many recent immigrants to North America have learned, there is far too much violence and there are far too many blame-issues in all our pasts. If we blindly carry those forward, ignoring positives while only accenting negatives and myths, we damage ourselves as individuals and as societies.
I really feel regret for this person, the institution that pays him and for his students. As Fox News shows, shallow thinking is popular and it pays… at least among shallow listeners, viewers and readers. This sort of superficiality and attack is better suited to Rupert Murdoch than for those of us trying to work for a better world.
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Nov 22, 2007 6:59 AM
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Posted by: Q30 on Nov 22, 2007 6:59 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do you really want this guy dictating your personal life?
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» RE: You DO realize...
Posted by: Thucy
» You'll see what I mean...
Posted by: Q30
» RE: You'll see what I mean...I thought of mentioning that myself
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: You DO realize...
Posted by: realist 101
» How do you know...
Posted by: hurricane hugo
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Posted by: radrave on Nov 22, 2007 7:22 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Everyone should give up feeling good about themselves and their families and start mourning. Right. Misery loves company.
The only choice is to confront and offend family members. Right. There are ways to express your opinion without offending others.
Let's all grow up, shall we?
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Posted by: Adam Weishaupt on Nov 22, 2007 7:25 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You've got a big axe to grind, Mr. Jansen, and you're grinding it in the wrong place. Howard Zinn already killed the one really bad holiday - you must have missed that memo.
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Posted by: realist 101 on Nov 22, 2007 7:26 AM
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» RE: The history of mankind...
Posted by: George Fleming
» RE: The history of mankind...
Posted by: realist 101
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Posted by: Intellect on Nov 22, 2007 7:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Pilgrims, according to their religious custom, gave their thanks and prayers in church and not during a communal feast, but they did share the harvest celebration with their Native American benefactors, the Wampanoag.
The first thanksgiving feast was eaten outside as the settlers did not have sufficient space to accommodate everyone in any one particular building. The Native Americans were invited to share the feast as it was they who taught the Pilgrim settlers how to survive, how to successfully grow indigenous food and hunt indigenous animals. The feast was held to rejoice the fruits of the Pilgrim's labors when the crops matured and to give thanks to their Native American benefactors.
Without the assistance of the Native Americans the Pilgrims would likely not have survived.
The Native Americans did bring them food, teach them how to hunt the indigenous animals, grow the various edible plants they would need and welcomed them, but there was no "Thanksgiving Day" as we know it today and it did not become a yearly event in the Pilgrim settlement.
For thousands of years, most cultures did have celebration at the conclusion of the harvest time celebrating the bounty of food - an almost universal holiday that existed way before Christianity and certainly way before the Pilgrims came to America. Most countries of the world celebrate the end of the harvest with a feast.
The Thanksgiving holiday in America was originally established by Abraham Lincoln.
I choose to recognize Thanksgiving simply as a day of thankfulness for the abundance of food we have available rather than the quasi-religious holiday that evolved in America.
It is also a day of family reunion. Nothing wrong with that.
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» RE: Thanksgiving was an "invented" holiday in the US anyway
Posted by: George Fleming
» RE: Thanksgiving was an "invented" holiday in the US anyway
Posted by: Intellect
» RE: Thanksgiving was an "invented" holiday in the US anyway
Posted by: werewolf
» RE: Thanksgiving was an "invented" holiday in the US anyway
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: thehousedog on Nov 22, 2007 7:30 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
people sitting around a table, a famiily, expressing thanks and their belief that tomorrow will be better than today - those days are GONE people, and what's left over are the bones to pick over that once represented hope, peace and a country that stood for something. now we're just a bunch of fat, overstuffed turkeys heading for the slaughter that we've brought on ourselves.
we know all of this and we continue to order seconds.
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» brilliant post.
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
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Posted by: Scientz on Nov 22, 2007 7:38 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: You're really running this divisive crap again?
Posted by: George Fleming
» RE: You're really running this divisive crap again?
Posted by: realist 101
» RE: You're really running this divisive crap again?
Posted by: Astroboy
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Posted by: Bbear41 on Nov 22, 2007 7:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: IT is...
Posted by: sophiej
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Posted by: Sojourner on Nov 22, 2007 7:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Instead what we need is a day of mourning for the native American genocide.
I assume that if one is African American, it is OK to skip the sackcloth and ashes. And is it because euro-Americans are so full of gratitude that we don't need any special reminders?
It is not my experience that most even have an idea what gratitude means. Grateful people do not take advantage at every opportunity; do not invade, do not pollute, do not destroy, do not exploit.
Maybe the Pilgrims also weren't grateful enough. But at least they knew it was necessary to come together to be reminded of that fact.
I guess Jensen thinks he's grateful enough already. Grateful people don't usually see themselves that way.
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» Love your last paragraph.
Posted by: mjabele
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Posted by: left-leaning-libertarian on Nov 22, 2007 7:50 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But nothing is gained or achieved in the present by beating myself up over the 400-year-old actions of these fools or trying to atone for their tragic lack of enlightenment. I do what good I can within the small sphere of my ability and that's all I can do. If I have to take a day off in order to feel sorry for myself nothing will be done. If I want to achieve some little good where I am able, I cannot worry about those things I cannot change or over which I have no power.
So instead of whining and piling on the guilt, let's go over to the local homeless shelter or soup kitchen and voluteer; let's donate some stuff we don't really need to a Christmas drive for the needy, let's get off our pie-in-the-sky butts and involve ourselves in the nitty-gritty of the political process so we can change the tragic course this country is now on. And if we want to bring people along with us, we damn well better stop putting stumbling blocks to their "conversion;" making them feel guilty or ashamed for no good reason right from the start; that's what the Puritans did, after all.
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Posted by: sausage on Nov 22, 2007 7:53 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I mean, besides federal, state and local governmental employees, who in the workforce gets all the legal holidays off? I would have included bank and credit union employees in my list but there are a couple of Monday-off holidays that financial instutions tend to ignore, President's Day or something.
But here it is Thanksgiving Day, the second most uniquely American holiday after Independence Day (who calls it that any more?), and folks are working today!
I'm not talking the overpaid football players we'll be watching after filling our gullets on roast turkey and mashed potatoes.
I'm not talking about fire, police, EMTs and those dedicated men and women pulling a double shift in the local emergency room. We should be thankful for those folks' sacrifice for without them the rest of us would be in a world of hurt should something unforesee occur.
No I'm talking about the underpaid, no-benefits folks working at retailers like CompUSA, KMart, and all the "convenience" stores from coast to coast. I bet that if any of you talk to some of these good people they'll tell you their getting neither overtime or any compensatory pay differential for selling cheap crap from China, beer, cigarettes and gasoline today.
But you can bet the CEOs and boardmemebers of all the retail outlets open today will be sitting down to a sumptous Thanksgiving's Day meal with the family gathered round.
If the holiday of Thanksgiving is so f*cking special, don't you agree that everybody, with the exception of necessary emergency workers like police etc., deserves the day off?
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» RE: Holidays in the good ol' US of A are debased anyway
Posted by: Peyotino
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Posted by: Soco on Nov 22, 2007 8:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These are the collective sins of humanity which span many nations and cultures over the course of history, not just Americans.
Celebrate the day with the conviction and promise to ensure these horrors don't happen on your shift. Don't support the people who do and dissent.
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Posted by: Urmutt on Nov 22, 2007 8:02 AM
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Just joshing. Actually I empathize with what you are saying BUT it's an 'old story' and you can't really expect to get very far with your call for a Day of Mourning cause it's futile to try to stop Americans from having FUN!
HOWEVER, having given this a lot of thought over the years I have a Compromise solution:
My suggestion would be that we augment the name of the Holiday to Thanksgiving - Native American Day.
This would allow us to establish new ways of celebrating the Holiday such as having huge Pow Wows on the Great Lawn of the White House or around the Reflecting Pool across from the Lincoln Memorial, such to be held of course at every State House in the various States also.
It would also encourage the Media, especially mainstream TV (with the exception of FOX News of course) to provide programs to related about the REAL history of the Holiday and also to provide 'coverage' of the Pow Wows, etc.
I mean that would accommodate everyone, folks could go on having their traditional Feasts and pay their respects to the Native Americans at the same time...
As for Turkeys, Hey ya can't please everyone, but at least this will encourage the Human kind to do a little Soul Searching which as we know is supposed to be another aspect of this Holiday...
Gobble Gobble...
***I'd suggest a 'mock' scalping of George W. Bush dressed in a Pilgrim suit by some Natives in Native dress, as another marvy idea.
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» Don't forget the Jews---
Posted by: WitchyNy
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Posted by: LANCE on Nov 22, 2007 8:10 AM
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Posted by: RoffleTheWaffle on Nov 22, 2007 8:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At least some of the replies are a lot friendlier and more thought out than last time. I vaguely remember writing an entirely too verbose reply to last year's Thanksgiving tirade, but I couldn't be bothered to retrieve it even if I could. To summarize, however, I felt there are more productive ways we can make up for the crimes of our forefathers than pointless self-loathing. After all, a holiday is what you choose to make of it, and for as far back as I can remember the only time and place where the historical background of the holiday was emphasized was at school. (Since largely inaccurate Thanksgiving myths are so educational.) In my home and in my family, Thanksgiving is recognized and celebrated as a day of giving thanks for what we have and an excuse to make a really nice meal, the leftovers of which would keep us fed for at least a week after. Does that mean I don't care about America's genocidal past? Hell no, and I think everyone should know the score, but I'm not going to screw myself and my family out of a holiday when there are better ways of atoning for my country's crimes that actually accomplish something tangible and meaningful.
Want to make a difference? Go out there and actually try to give the Native American community a leg up. Donate to charity or volunteer or something instead. Be an advocate instead of falling for this 'Liberal Sign Waving' crap. This fasting business is little more than a well-meaning symbolic gesture that ultimately accomplishes nothing, and I for one would find it rather unsatisfying for more reasons than just my empty stomach.
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» RE: This Looks Familiar -
Posted by: Intellect
» RE: This Looks Familiar -
Posted by: ZenMorph
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Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line on Nov 22, 2007 8:18 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Why don't you ask this question ...
Posted by: sausage
» RE: Why don't you ask this question ...
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Why don't you ask this question ...
Posted by: Astroboy
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Posted by: hagwind on Nov 22, 2007 8:19 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's what bugs me about proposals like Robert Jensen's, including calls for reparations for slavery. They've all got right on their side, but what's the point? Say we all put our hair shirts on every Thanksgiving; say Congress legislates an apology and a nominal payment to every descendant of an African American slave. Does it change anything? Not much. These are overwhelmingly symbolic issues, and the main beneficiaries are their proponents, who get a big egoboo for being on the side of the angels.
Think of the U.S. of A. as a vast herd of scared cattle (or sheep, or lemmings -- you choose) headed for a cliff. Any cowboy can tell you that if you're trying to deal with a stampede, you don't get out in front and try to stop it. No: you ride with it and try to turn it. That way we all might survive the experience.
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Posted by: mark_proulx on Nov 22, 2007 8:22 AM
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» Hair shirt?
Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle
» RE: Hair shirt?
Posted by: mark_proulx
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Posted by: kroenung58 on Nov 22, 2007 8:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do suggest we drop the Pilgrim bit; it's just absurd to sit in that glass house watching the stones fly. Every culture on earth has a harvest festival in the fall; that's all Thanksgiving really is. If we want to get really finicky about the details, let's remember that this holiday essentially died out in the 19th century and was resurrected in 1863 by Lincoln as a day to give thanks for Gettysburg and other signs that the Union was going to be preserved.
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Nov 22, 2007 8:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The planet sucks. Civilizations have dominated and destroyed "the other" since we apes walked (charged?) out of the forest with big sticks (clubs) to protect and defend our territory. (Translation: Man has been killing man over territory since the beginning of mankind.) And as the population of the earth swells ever closer to unsustainable/teetering on the edge of chaos and collapse, it's only going to get worse. Think Iraq, Darfur, etc..
Genocide and Ecocide are happening right now with every breath we take. We can beat ourselves up until we're filled with self-loathing to the point of white guilt suicide over the genocide that Eurotrash perpetuated 400 years ago. But it doesn't change human nature. And Amerikkka is already feeling the squeeze. One hundred years from now, this country will be run by China or ________ (whoever else...insert country name here) buys us on the international financial scene. Our days our numbered here.
Be grateful that you're not in Darfur or Iraq or a survivor of Nazi Germany or a Palestinian or a Hutu or Tutsi or Balkan or Cambodian...or (insert name of any other peoples currently or recently slaughtered)...
Acknowledge the planet-wide ancient atrocities (Sparta vs. Rome) of all peoples everywhere since time begain.
Most of us reading this right now can be grateful that we were born into a time when we are not victims of atrocities that are endless...
This could change at any moment.
For today, be grateful that your street is peaceful, that you have hot water to shower, cold water to drink, and food in your belly.
Most of the world isn't so blessed.
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» RE: We already have days of atonement: Lent, Yom Kippur, Eid...
Posted by: Turiye
» Sorry, I meant Ramadan..my bad
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Nov 22, 2007 8:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While we are stuffing ourselves, they are at work.
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Posted by: MichaelG on Nov 22, 2007 8:48 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Carl Jung, writing in his prescient little sliver of a book, "The Undiscovered Self" in 1957, warned that Americans were "even more vulnerable than Europe", at risk of succumbing to "the infection of a uniform and one-sided idea", much as Germans allowed themselves to be drawn into the Nazi web of deceit, racism, and war-madness. Much of what has occurred since 9/11/2001 suggests to me that Jung's assessment of America and Americans was accurate.
We would do well to heed Bob Jensen's advice and examine our deeply ingrained predjudices.
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Posted by: OldRedleg on Nov 22, 2007 8:51 AM
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Or maybe, as some more astute posters have already pointed out, we should stop beating ourselves up about the past that most of us had nothing to do with and work harder to make the future better so as not to repeat the sins of thee past.
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Nov 22, 2007 8:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was hoping some Native Americans would post here. Maybe as the day goes by...out here in the west we wake up later!
Regarding holidays-Christmas comes to us from the Druids- who worshiped trees. Perhaps we could consider that as our world's forests continue to be cut down...
Regarding Indians-one thing we could all do is buy Christmas Presents from the Native Americans. Many still live in great poverty.
Here in the west, there are little shops on most every res-with Indian made jewlery of tirquoise and silver, handwoven wool rugs, paintings by Indian artists, pottery, many beautiful things.
I am sure you city/easterners could find sites on line.
Good way to protest Corporate Xmas America and help the Native Amerians at the same time.
Thanksgiving comes to us from the ancient harvest festivals.
Good day to remember Mother Earth and what is happening to her.
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» ditto on the tofurkey
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
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Posted by: scenery on Nov 22, 2007 9:13 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There were some isolated national days of thanks declared after some battles or some such events but nothing set in stone until later.
The holiday has evolved and been given a story. It is not the day itself that should be bashed; maybe change the story -- tell the truth about the holiday itself and then start telling the truth in history books.
I think it is good to stop and give thanks in general. I enjoy any occasion for merry making. Turning today into a national day of atonement just sounds like paying lip service to injustice and will not result in real change. It is a good way to feel guilt and get depressed and be of no friggn' use to any kind of movement toward real justice.
I find scarlet letter self flagellating practices somewhat perverse and prefer not to participate in awareness raising at that level. It is not critical literacy. It is reminiscent of puritan guilt; which does not apply to all of us who live in this country.
I like Jensen's articles and pov in general, but it seems he confuses feeling guilt with taking social responsibility.
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» RE: Giving Thanks
Posted by: nellie blogger
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Posted by: realist 101 on Nov 22, 2007 9:49 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Maybe we shouldn't celebrate MLK or black history month...
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» Blame the dealer...
Posted by: hurricane hugo
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Posted by: donl51 on Nov 22, 2007 9:41 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I must be living now in the age..PS
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: Libsrule on Nov 22, 2007 10:04 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I cannot believe this drivel is STILL being posted. Ya know what? You want to start having days of atonement and guilt and feeling bad?
Go ahead, the rest of are having a nice day with our family which is what the day truly is about. While it might have once been identified with our first successful days as colonists, it no longer is and I am sick to death of crap like this.
Get over it. It's not going to change and much like how republicans today no longer reflect what republicans USED to be, neither does Thanksgiving for the majority of us.
But give this guilt trip crap a rest already. Go home and enjoy your family and stop trying to ruin it for everyone else.
Besides most Indians I know are cashing in big time and becoming millionaires from their casinos. Their true nature is being revealed with their greed and meanness towards other tribes.
How about going after them? They would actually still attack each other if it was possible. They refuse to help those tribes in trouble and spend millions setting up K Street lobby groups.
So go away.
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Posted by: Robba29 on Nov 22, 2007 10:19 AM
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Posted by: nellie blogger on Nov 22, 2007 10:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem with this holiday is that it has been completely dissociated from the truth of its beginnings. The day is now some kind of New Wave, free flowing day of thanks and eating. It doesn't really relate to history any more.
It's also a day where people are supposed to feel good about themselves and their lives. It's very hard to get people to give that up.
But the truth will out. And slowly, the truth of our country's past is becoming known, and over time, the history of Thanksgiving will also be recognized. Until then, if people want to eat turkey and feel grateful, I don't begrudge it. But for myself, I have to be true to what I know and to my ancestors. I let the day go by without pretending or celebrating.
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Posted by: easybeartx on Nov 22, 2007 10:41 AM
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"Surtout, pas de zele." - Talleyrand
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Posted by: apophenia_monkey on Nov 22, 2007 11:00 AM
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his home and family must be epitomes of warmth and light and love...
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Posted by: apophenia_monkey on Nov 22, 2007 11:01 AM
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» RE: obert, I Wish You A Happy Thanksgiving--Love the Rate Down
Posted by: apophenia_monkey
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Posted by: hurricane hugo on Nov 22, 2007 11:29 AM
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plur
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» RE: Happy Illegal Immigration Day to you all!
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Happy Illegal Immigration Day to you all!
Posted by: nellie blogger
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Posted by: CV on Nov 22, 2007 11:39 AM
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Posted by: aedwards on Nov 22, 2007 11:46 AM
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2. Family. Finally a sitdown dinner with the family. How often does that happen anymore?
3. Time and a half. My job pays me time and a half for working on holidays. I need the money.
4. Football. I don't even have to pay for cable to watch! Isn't that in the end what thanksgiving is all about?
5. Bitterness. Partying keeps us from turning into bitter, self-rightious, pricks who complain about everything.
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Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 22, 2007 12:24 PM
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1. Fighting resource wars for oil especially in IRAQ.
2. Banning harmless but helpful plants such as Cannabis that cause no deaths or health risks but in fact end up as cures compared to fast food, alcohol, tobacco, etc ...
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» RE: There is never gratitude in America as it is. Besides, do what most people do.
Posted by: richholland
» RE: There is never gratitude in America as it is. Besides, do what most people do.
Posted by: maxpayne
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Posted by: scribbler on Nov 22, 2007 12:46 PM
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» RE: Celebrating First Americans' kindness to undocumented Europeans
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
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Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Nov 22, 2007 12:47 PM
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After all, those caucasians MUST have more $$$$ and other things we want to con them out of.
Besides all that, it MUST be their fault as, all this happened ONLY a loust damn 350 years ago.
Go tell it to your colon.
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» RE: AWWWWWWWW. WEEP WEEP WEEP
Posted by: ALANHESTER
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Posted by: Nasty Jesus on Nov 22, 2007 1:21 PM
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"AlterNet's discussion forums are provided as a means to further the dialogue about pressing political and cultural issues. We seek to encourage intelligent, thoughtful and respectful conversation and debate in these forums, and we reserve the right to moderate as we see fit."
Now, in reply to Jensen's essay, which has aroused so much emotion: thank you, Professor.
Howard Zinn told us that "dissent is the highest form of patriotism." Unfortunately, principles are often forgotten when they become inconvenient, as in the case of Thanksgiving Holiday. Many of the comments sidestep the argument altogether by verbally attacking Jensen's essay as a "rant", "annoying", "boring", and other disrespectful language. This kind of "argument" lacks the validity necessary to make it intelligent or thoughtful. The fact that Jensen's essay is the headlining article on today's Alternet means that there seems to be enough support to make it a subject worthy of relevant discussion.
Now, as the little voices in your head go "but, but, but...look at all the people celebrating thanksgiving, that means no one wants to abolish it", I ask you to ponder history with all its glorious contradictions. First of all, this holiday designed to celebrate the plentiful harvest has not been invented by American history. All we did was change the meaning of it from a day rooted in pagan beliefs, to a day commemorating conquest. There are cultures who celebrate a similar day (take the German "Erntedankfest", celebrated in October, for example) whose meaning has not been distorted.
If we changed Thanksgiving to a day in October,on a Sunday after the full moon known as "harvest moon", and truly made it into a day celebrating the harvest of local produce (which, for all you lovers of frequent-flyer-mile food, is its original designation), we could retain the spirit of family, friends, and a loving spirit without having to constantly be reminded of our own hypocrisy.
Paradigm shifts do not occur over night. They are intangible shifts in public perception, fueled by sometimes incendiary discussion, and often marked by failure to accomplish anything other than sticking to your guns in the face of adversity. If changes on a larger scale couldn't happen because of the majority opinion, then women still wouldn't vote, segregation would persist, and I would not be sitting here exercising my freedom of speech. Change happens, as I speak; the choice we face is how to direct its energy. Should spend time upholding a tradition created to affirm the American ego of its manifest destiny? Or, should we channel this energy along positive and constructive channels? For example, for those of you attending a holiday feast with your loved ones, encourage a friendly discussion of the values surrounding this holiday. Take one hour out of the day to get together and write a letter to your representative; tell them you appreciate all the good things this holiday has to offer. Tell them that if we want to indeed offer ourselves as an example of democracy to the world, we must first show respect to the indigenous cultures we almost destroyed. Once again, other harvest celebrations are actually celebrated on a day that is equated with the harvest; how difficult would it be to follow suit?
And last, but not least: respect for the harvest shows itself in actions, not words. Buy local, if you can. Organic, if not local, and seasonal above all. Turkeys that have been reared in humane and ethical environments are available, instead of buying that hormone-laced, steroid-fed, conveyor belt bird from Sam's Club. Then again, vegetarian, vegan, or raw feasts take imagination, are nutritionally superior, and make cooking (or un-cooking) a community event.
Peace, and keep up the words .
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» I respectfully disagree with YOUR opinion...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: I respectfully disagree with YOUR opinion...
Posted by: Nasty Jesus
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Posted by: AintNanny on Nov 22, 2007 1:32 PM
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PS ..my ancestors were Quakers ...do I get a pass?
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Posted by: foresight on Nov 22, 2007 1:45 PM
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Posted by: sofla100 on Nov 22, 2007 4:00 PM
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Posted by: Cathyc on Nov 22, 2007 4:05 PM
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The claim that through private action we can create our own reality is one of the key tenets of a predatory corporate capitalism that naturalizes unjust hierarchy, a part of the overall project of discouraging political struggle and encouraging us to retreat into a private realm where life is defined by consumption.
Mr. Jensen, it all depends on how one lives one's private life - which does not necessarily mean endorsing the psychotic hierarchical system that is deemed normal to MOST Americans!
In order to be a useful member of a social community - as opposed to a member of an anti-social society (e.g., America) one has to have SELF respect. Note, driving an SUV and/or living in a McMansion (or aspiring to have such things) is not a normal human social trait!
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» Ah, but...
Posted by: Coleman
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Posted by: Cathyc on Nov 22, 2007 4:15 PM
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Do they talk about the Native Americans? Who they?
Credit-Card debt?
Sub-Prime Mortgages?
Global Warming?
GWB, Chaney, Rice, Rikki Lake, Dr. Phil, Oprah??
Just curious...
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» We get it, Cathy...
Posted by: mjabele
» Good for you!
Posted by: Coleman
» I think your blinders are on a bit too tight...
Posted by: mjabele
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Posted by: newshound on Nov 22, 2007 4:35 PM
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Posted by: macdon1 on Nov 22, 2007 5:31 PM
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» RE: Day of Mourning
Posted by: ALANHESTER
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Posted by: gypseyjingle on Nov 22, 2007 5:41 PM
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Thanksgiving Wishes from Dick & Lynne
What’s a few dead Indians, with turkey on the plate?
Mama’s sweet bird stuffing in a sumptuous butter ball!
The Cowboys thrashed the Redskins forty-two to eight.
And storewide sales commencing at the Mall.
What’s a few dead Indians, we still enjoy the myth
and pump our history full of Yankee pride
we celebrate their dignity with lovely greeting cards
pretending to say “thanks”, with no giving implied.
What’s a few dead Indians, (pass the Rolaids, please)
I can’t believe we’ve gobbled everything in sight
Thank god the chinks still fill the stores, with everything we want
I’d hate to disappoint the tykes, come the holy night.
What’s a few dead Indians, Our destiny was manifest.
That’s the spirit of democracy and what makes the US BEST!
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Posted by: timemachinist on Nov 22, 2007 6:18 PM
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I agree. I think we should turn it into a national day of fasting and sexual abstinence. The new ritual replacing Turkey dinner should be to go out in the cold wearing only a cheesecloth sheet, rehearsing the entire Psalter of 50 different Cortez the Killer hymns, accompanying each psalm with a hundred lash-strokes to the back.
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Posted by: argyle on Nov 22, 2007 5:56 PM
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First, the horrific destruction of the Native American peoples was a process involving hundreds of years and many different authorities. Nazi Germany conducted an organized scheduled and merciless assembly line like murder machine.
Second, the most likely cause for the destruction of the first civilization on this continent was smallpox, which was unknown in the new world before that bastard Cortez got here. Again, Nazi Germany conducted an organized scheduled and merciless assembly line like murder machine.
The "Pilgrims" were hardly saints, and many were hard men who did vicious things. However, to compare them to the Nazi's is to misunderstand the difference between tragedy and murder.
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» Look. I'm going to put it in real simple terms.
Posted by: Coleman
» By all means, let's change what we teach in schools...
Posted by: mjabele
» RE: I'm sorry
Posted by: nellie blogger
» RE: I'm sorry
Posted by: xtiml
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Posted by: mjabele on Nov 22, 2007 6:49 PM
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I guess as a result of mulling over these issues for several years, I simply no longer believe in the concept that those of us living now bear any sort of personal responsibility for the actions of our ancestors, beyond acknowledging what was done in the past. Taking steps to rectify whatever inequalities and/or injustices resulting from those actions might still persist in the present shouldn't in my view be construed as "reparation" or "taking responsibility" for the actions of long-dead ancestors, but rather as the simple expression of taking responsibility to alleviate others' hardship NOW, wherever we might find it during our present lives - the only period of time we can really be asked to take any personal responsibility for, in my opinion.
It seems to me the primary reason to assist Native Americans to attain a better quality of life has to do with the simple fact that they're our fellow human beings, in other words - not because dead people whose genes some of us might happen to share caused their present predicament centuries ago. It should be our desire to correct inequalities and injustices WHEREver and WHENever we see them - not just as a consequence of some sort of "guilty association", particularly when defined by "hereditary" criteria alone.
Given my own inability to feel "responsibilified", if you will, for the actions of one of my two grandfathers, I just don't see how Mr. Jensen's proposal to eliminate Thanksgiving accomplishes any of the above goals. Rather than provoking reflection, I suspect it would sow confusion, anger, and divisiveness among people like me who, on balance, have come to the conclusion that all of us must have ancestors who did "bad things" as well as others who did "good things", and consequently feel an inability to atone, if you will, for all of the unknown specific acts all our ancestors might have undertaken. We can only be responsible for the present, in other words - but in that sense, we certainly can, and probably should be held responsible for ignoring injustice where we know it to be present.
All the more reason to extend a hand to Native Americans, and all other fellow human beings whose lot needs to be improved, whether our ancestors had something to do with their present predicament or not.
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» The history we teach in schools is what is "CONFUSED"
Posted by: Coleman
» Hmmm...
Posted by: mjabele
» I Rarely Say This, But...
Posted by: grumble-bum
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Posted by: InsertNameHere on Nov 22, 2007 6:58 PM
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And don't get too feisty about days of atonement and recognition of genocide, AIPAC tends to get snippy about people muscling in on their gig.
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Posted by: Betsy L. Angert on Nov 22, 2007 7:23 PM
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I have let the parade pass me by for at least a decade. I enjoy my company or the companionship of those that understand as I do,;Thanksgiving as a holiday is a myth and a marketing ploy.
Last year, I penned my thoughts, Give Thanks for Genocide. Thanksgiving, National Day of Mourning.
Hours ago I decided to inscribe my further thoughts on the topic. I feel we cannot attone for what we continue to do. As a country, we are committed to ethic cleansing. The Patriot Act documents our xenophobia, subtlety. The way we treat and speak of immigrants is overtly racist. Speak to Progressives of immigration and watch the words of bigotry fly.
I have yet to finish, the treatise I began this afternoon. Tonight I ate with Indians, from India. We had no turkey, no ham. The meal was a vegan delight, as all my entrees are. For me, killing fowl or a person identified as foe is genocide. I will not engage in either. I mourn our lack of care and empathy for our fellow man.
Betsy L. Angert
BeThink.org
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Posted by: sofla100 on Nov 22, 2007 8:11 PM
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I get two FU#K$N weeks off work a year and a couple holidays. You want to take those holidays away from me now also? Day of Atonement huhh, how about a day of atonement for what the corporate elite has done to American workers. Shipped all of the USA's good jobs overseas. Sure, America still has lots of workers, like hotel clerks and cruise ship reservations agents. All of them for a whopping $8.25 an hour. The Indians were the group screwed with 100 years ago, we, the American worker are the group screwed with today. Focus your argument on what is happening now. And, please don't give the powers that be the idea to take even more things away from us!
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Posted by: photon's feather on Nov 22, 2007 8:19 PM
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Further, many Americans had no ancestors in this country during the time period in question; and many have ancestors who were here, but had no direct with any such actions.
Should we also have days of atonement for what some of our ancestors may have done in their ancestral lands? (I wonder whether one of my great-great-[etc] grandfathers was in on wiping out the Picts... or perhaps one was a Pict.)
Native Americans - whom I count among friends and family - were not the only ones to have been victimized. Nor were all the victims necessarily non-white, nor all the victimizers necessarily white. (For example, there were both Native American and black slave-holders.)
I'm sick to death of eternal victimhood. I no more expect to be compensated for the bad - even brutal - treatment suffered by some of my forebears than I am willing to pay for what might have been done by any of them. I did not share the suffering of the former, nor was I an accomplice in any actions of the latter. (Neither am I a beneficiary: there was no wealth attained by my forebears through any means, and nothing handed down to me.)
Teach everything in history classes, without editing or white-washing, but leave out the guilt concerning things so long past. Nobody alive today earned it, and there are no victims left to be compensated.
There are plenty of Americans alive today who are currently being victimized - by the government, large corporations, the banks, our crooked and incompetent 'health care' system, etc. These are people who could benefit from Americans taking action now. (And their victimizers are alive and subject to being held to account.)
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Posted by: scorpiokc on Nov 22, 2007 8:24 PM
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http://www.currenteventswatch.com
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Posted by: scorpiokc on Nov 22, 2007 8:28 PM
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Posted by: Logic's Edge on Nov 22, 2007 8:33 PM
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I see nothing wrong with taking one day of the year, getting together with family and being thankful for what we have. And enjoying a roasted turkey while we do it.
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» RE: Well...
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» &&&!
Posted by: grumble-bum
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Posted by: COhippie on Nov 22, 2007 9:28 PM
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Posted by: common intelligence on Nov 22, 2007 10:42 PM
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Have a nice bit of bird and mashed Potatoes and gravy with some cranberry sauce and take a friggin nap for gods sake!
The indians lost and now we are.
'Nough said!
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Posted by: zorro on Nov 22, 2007 10:54 PM
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P.s. Having said all that--I do enjoy th emeal and friends, but it is a huge hassle at the same time. And now my family has gone hillbilly and dep fry the turkey which disrupts my slavating glands and is one more reason not to join them. Family is a huge bore anyway--and all idiotic Bush supporters and flag wavers. I make my own reasons to celebrate a humanitarian, humanistic life everyday--I dont need capitalism, an ancient/medieval God, fascism, genocide, hillbilly war-mongers or football--yawn.
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Posted by: zorro on Nov 22, 2007 10:57 PM
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Posted by: freedomschild on Nov 22, 2007 11:38 PM
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Thanking You. ~fc~
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Posted by: Flashgordon123 on Nov 23, 2007 5:15 AM
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Posted by: jstepp590 on Nov 23, 2007 6:48 AM
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Our ancestors didn't wipe out the natives, the eurasian diseases did. Even Cortez wrote in his journals how the cities in S. America we depopulated by small pox. With no prior exposure to the epidemics the Europeans brought with them, they were what is known as a "virgin field", meaning they had no immunities at all. Small pox alone caused over 95% casualties, and the common cold, flus and measles were just about as bad. It was said that even the survivors of the diseases died because they were too weak to make it to water or feed themselves.
So, while it may make us feel superior or guilty at least let the blame rest where it truly belongs. Not with the brightest or smartest of the human race but with our age old nemisis, disease.
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» RE: Uh, excuse me...Uh, there was biological warfare also
Posted by: UnEasyOne
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Posted by: carol a. on Nov 23, 2007 7:47 AM
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An ethicist is a rare animal in these times. Whether one agrees or disagrees with Jensen's conclusions, I think decisions and actions based on a carefully examined, personal ethical system are never easy, but worthy of respect. Half-way measures and casual compromises probably have no place in this sort of process. Ethics as a way of life is not for the faint-hearted.
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Posted by: toddw on Nov 23, 2007 9:12 AM
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I'm convinced that unplugging from Thanksgiving and other holidays is key to transforming ourselves and how we think about social change. Until we stop celebrating what we "really don't believe in" it's hard to have a real sense of how much these rituals serve to maintain our outlook and realities.
Anyway thanks for the articles and being another soul who just wasn't willing to live with the contradictions days like Thanksgiving bring to the surface.
Here's the link to my blog post yesterday-
http://everyonesbackyard.blogspot.com/
Have a good one-
Todd
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Posted by: Spock on Nov 23, 2007 9:19 AM
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Posted by: chugach3Dguy on Nov 23, 2007 10:13 AM
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Put your money where your mouth is. Like so many others, it's much easier to whine and gripe about things that happened generations ago and do a lot of finger wagging than it is to stand up for your convictions and just leave. Yes, this country of ours has it's problems and skeletons in the closet. Just like every other country ON THE PLANET.
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» RE: Interesting..."America-Love It or Leave It" rant...
Posted by: Astroboy
» Not Exactly How I Read It...
Posted by: grumble-bum
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Posted by: ALANHESTER on Nov 23, 2007 10:13 AM
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Posted by: flymulla on Nov 23, 2007 10:38 AM
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??BLACK FRIDAY OR DUPED???
This is exactly as we have in Mecca when the pilgrims come to Saudi Arabia for the pilgrimage. The one month before, that is now in 2007(there is a gap of 11 odd days between the lunar and our calendar moth). The Hajj is one time in life, a must, for the Muslims .What happens at his time in Saudi cities, is the markets are flooded with all types of commodities, perfumes, bags, watches, electronic, name it, it is here for sale. More the reason of the fake goods entering as most of the pilgrims may never come again. Therefore, the vendors try to sell all types of fake, broken, off the usual ISO or any standards at a throw away price.
The bag is so attractive that in spite of running short of cash, you end up borrowing cash, only to find at times that you were tricked into buying fake perfume or the very fragile belt of the wrist watch or rings that looks gold. There are some honest shopkeepers to tell you that the gods are fake and cheap. They will tell you what is originals and what is the quick sale and no warranty or guarantee.
I thank you
Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD
P.O.Box 6044
Dar-Es-Salaam
Tanzania
East Africa
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Posted by: Liam on Nov 23, 2007 11:36 AM
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Posted by: wyatt on Nov 23, 2007 12:38 PM
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from another point of view, Thanks giving is the only "indigenous people's holiday" America celebrates and we both rage at and enjoy the irony; it's like calling ourselves indians and enjoying the fact that the Southern European ancestors were so very lost.
The Plymouth indians gave the Pilgrims a holiday, and if you think about it, a quite different way of praying: giving thanks, not asking for.
Just leave Thanksgiving alone it already reaches thinking people (like yourself), but consider changing another holiday to a day of atonement — since we've fallen so short of Jesus' teaching, perhaps Christmas or Easter?
Wyatt
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Posted by: xtiml on Nov 23, 2007 8:49 PM
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Posted by: SV1 on Nov 24, 2007 1:33 PM
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Posted by: Staggo on Nov 24, 2007 6:30 PM
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Posted by: Ernie Yams, Professional Babysitter on Nov 24, 2007 9:24 PM
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Posted by: johnclark on Nov 25, 2007 2:17 PM
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Thanksgiving isn't about Plimoth rock for most of us. It is a 4 day holiday to spend with our families.
The story of European colonization of Turtle Island is so large that even many of the "experts" disagree (kinda' like porn, ha?).
Jensen diatribes give ammo to our real enemies to keep working folks from listening to what really matters. It's like, I just sent links to some great pieces on NCLB by Sean Gonsalves to my PTO list, now they'll see this piece instead and my credibility's destroyed.
Anyhow, I agree with the Columbus day comment above. In 1992, we were all wearing "Columbus didn't discover America, he invaded it" tee shirts and educating the public. It was common in those days to trade Columbus day for the day after (you guessed it) Thanksgiving. And the difference between what I learned in school about the conquest and what my kids are learning today is great. American Indian writers are in my kids school books! Of course, lots more needs to be done. The fact that liberals like Jensen can have a soapbox to replace one myth of American Indians with another just shows how much needs to be done.
For my part, I tell my friends to read books like 1491 and Indian writers like Sherman Alexie. If one wants pre-Columbian history, listen to story tellers, go to Indian museums, and read Indian writers. The one thing liberals (and conservaives) never understand is that people are people -- no matter what color, what faith ..., we are all the same. Learn that lesson, and we can all work together.
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Posted by: muggs131 on Nov 25, 2007 7:30 PM
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Posted by: sixshooter on Nov 25, 2007 8:41 PM
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Let's face it, terrible acts have been committed throughout history, and there would be 365 days of atonement and mourning if we acknowledged them all. It's a beautiful idea to think of our "white-supremacist, patriarchal" rulers handing the land back to the Native Americans, but that is unlikely to happen while our grandchildren are alive.
Instead of spitting out theories about how enjoying fellowship with those we love instead of pounding the streets in protest is selfish and consumerist - thereby giving those of us who enjoy Thanksgiving celebrations no credit for intelligence - focus on the modern results of our ancestors' barbarism: poverty, inequality, anomie. Better yet, save the juice bar rhetoric and enjoy some time with your family.
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Posted by: redroadtraveler on Nov 27, 2007 6:17 PM
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This prayer is a gift from the Haudenosaunee People (The Iroquois Nation) for you to remember perhaps at your Thanksgiving table - and especially with children. The real observance of the first Thanksgivings by first peoples has been all but forgotten by American culture. It is time to remember.
Let us greet the world in Thanksgiving as if we were sharing one mind, one heart, and one body. Today we have gathered and come from many different places. We have arrived safely at this place to share with each other our gifts from the Creator. So we bring our minds together as one in Thanksgiving and Greetings to one another.
We now turn our thoughts to Earth Mother. She continues to care for us and has not forgotten her instructions from the beginning of time. Now we bring our minds together in Thanksgiving for the Earth.
Now as one mind we turn our thoughts to the Waters of the Earth for they too have not forgotten their instructions from the Creator of Life. The Waters continue to flow beneath the ground, in little streams and in rivers, in lakes and in wetlands, and in the great seas. They quench our thirst and help keep us clean so we can fulfill our duty to Creation. We now bring our minds together in Thanksgiving to all the Waters of the Earth.
We now address all the Beings both seen and unseen that dwell in the Water for they too have not forgotten their original instructions from the Creator of Life to provide for us in many ways. With one mind we send our Thanksgiving and Greetings to all the Nations who dwell in the Waters.
Now we direct our thoughts to the many kinds of plants that live upon the Earth- for they too have not forgotten their original instructions. Many members of this Nation sustain those who walk upon this Earth, and many others who continue to fulfill their duties to take away the sickness of the human family and elevate human consciousness. With one mind we send our thoughts and Thanksgiving to the Plant Nations.
With one mind we now think of our relations in the many Insect Nations. Like the other members of the natural world, they too have not forgotten their original instructions to fulfill their obligation to Continued Creation. With one mind we send our thoughts and Thanksgiving to all the members of the Insect Nations.
We now gather our minds together and send Greetings and Thanksgiving to all the Animal Life in the world, for they continue to instruct and teach us even today. It is said that the Creator knew that Humans would take too much for granted if they were given all the wisdom, so instead the Creator gave a little piece of wisdom of how to live on the Earth to the different animals. We are happy that many still walk with us on our continuing journey. With one mind we send Thanksgiving to all the Animal Life in the world.
With one mind we now think of the Trees. According to their original instructions the Trees still give us shelter, warmth, food, and make the environment a suitable place to dwell. The trees remind us of the beauty and power in the natural world. With one mind we send our Thanksgiving to all the members of the Tree Nation.
We now bring our minds together and send our Greetings of Thanksgiving to the Birds. At the beginning of time the Birds were given a special duty to perform. The Creator gave the Birds instructions to each find a special place to live in the world and they should learn the song of that place. During the day, our minds are lifted by the songs of the Bird Nations. With one mind we send our Thanksgiving to the Birds of the world.
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Posted by: redroadtraveler on Nov 27, 2007 6:19 PM
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We now turn our attention to the Thunderbeings. For they too have not forgotten their original instructions and welcome the Spring with their loud voice. Along with the lightning, they carry the waters of the spring on their backs. It is also said that the Thunderbeings were given the job to hold down the beings beneath the Earth which would prevent life from continuing. With one mind we send our Thanksgiving and Greetings to the Thunderbeings.
Our minds are as one as we send our thoughts to our oldest brother the Sun. Each day the Sun continues his instructions from the Creator of Life, bringing the light of day, the energy source of all life on Earth. With one mind we send our Thanksgiving to our oldest brother the Sun.
We now gather our minds together and give thanks to our oldest Grandmother the Moon. She holds hands with all the women of the world and binds all of the female cycles and rhythms of the Waters so we may continue to carry out our obligation to Creation. With one mind we send our Thanksgiving and Greetings to Grandmother Moon.
With one mind we send our thoughts to the Star Nation who continue to light our way during times of darkness to guide us home, and hold the secrets of many forgotten stories. Even though many of the stories are no longer in our minds, it is said it is enough to be thankful to the Stars and perhaps one day we would learn these stories again.
With one mind we send our Thanksgiving and Greetings to the Star Nation.
With our minds as one we think of the Four Spirit Beings who live in the Four Directions. At the beginning of time when the Creator first made the Human Family, it was seen that they very quickly got themselves into trouble. The Creator knew that they needed extra help and so created the Four Spirit Beings to remove the obstacles from our paths and guide us with our feelings. And now we gather our minds together as one and send our special Thanksgiving to the Four Spirit Beings.
Now we have arrived in a very special place where dwells the Great Spirit, the Creator of the Universe. As one mind we turn our thoughts to the Creator, for without the Creator we would not be able to walk on the Earth fulfilling our original instructions.
Everything we need is provided for us and all we have to remember is to give thanks. With one mind we send our Thanksgiving and Greetings to the Creator.
We have now become like one being. We send our Prayers and special Thanksgiving Greetings to all the unborn children of the future generations. We send our thoughts to the Elders and the Children for they give us guidance and purpose to live in a good way. We are thankful to all the Enlightened Teachers who have come to help us throughout the ages. We send our thoughts to the many different beings we may have missed during our Thanksgiving. With one mind we send Thanksgiving and Greetings to all of the Nations of the World.
Now Our Minds Are One.
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Posted by: Alli on Nov 28, 2007 5:34 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How will it help the people massacred hundreds of years ago to throw a guilt trip on people today who celebrate Thanksgiving? If we all stop celebrating Thanksgiving, will it help impoverished Native Americans living on reservations?
I beleive the author of this article is a victim of selective history, just like the rest of us are. Yes, treatment of Native Americans by Europeans was brutal. It isn't something to be proud of, and it certainly isn't something unique in the history of the world. You can sit back and judge the actions of our ancestors by today's standards, or you can extend just a bit of effort to try to understand their actions in the context of the time during which they lived. Imperialism and domination isn't a European trait. Every country, every culture, all over the world, did the same thing. The Europeans just happened to be the first people to develop the means to do it better than anyone else.
Before Europeans arrived here, Native Americans went to war with each other. They enslaved each other. Their popluation included, I'm sure, good people and bad people. The author of this article seems to be in love with "the myth of the noble savage." Let's say two different tribes were at war. Along come some Europeans who want to defeat one tribe. Who do you think helped them accomplish this task? Native Americans! There's a reason why the French and Indian War is called the French and Indian War. As someone who's heritage includes Native American ancestry, I am fully capable of feeling outraged at the way our country was founded. I am also fully capable of understanding that the world worked like that back then, as unsavory as it is to many of us now.
Please, before anyone else buys into this conspiracy against Thanksgiving, educate yourself about world history. It will make you less likely to condemn early Americans.
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Posted by: Jungle Boy on Nov 22, 2007 1:31 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I received an email asking me to "Have a Happy Turkey Day!!! I replied that most of the turkeys are not happy today!
In the 17th Century(maybe in the 15th, as well), the Pope said it was OK to kill the Indians because they were heathens that would not come to GOD. Today, some would say the same about Muslims. I'm not sure what the justification the Aussies used for the Aborigines.
The regular people in the movie, The Matrix, didn't want to know the Truth and neither do the "regular" people today!
Eat the bird, watch football, then hurry to the sales going on the next day--gotta shop early for Xmas.
Great to hear of someone who is waking up!!
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» At least one turkey is spared a torturous death..we're eating TOFURKEY
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» Hard to live right
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Posted by: corgyn on Nov 22, 2007 2:24 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seems a vein of serious quilt problems runs through all your writings - white men, porn & thanksgiving - what an uplifting set of specialties.
If you'll pardon a bit of amateur analysis.... I some how envision your private life as this secret BDSM acolyte cringing in a dungeon as your big mistress [of color of course] beats the shit out of you in atonement for what ever haunts you. Is that what you'll do today rather than have dinner? Sounds good to me.....
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» RE: If you can get away with it do it! Like turning in the same school paper
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» By your bizarre thinking we should be blaming the Chinese unto this day
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» RE: If you can get away with it do it! Like turning in the same school paper
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» So, what is the problem with repetition?
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» Fabulous -- Left and Right Agree BDSM = "Somethingwrongwitchu"
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» RE: Wow, talk about Freudian slips...
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» RE: Third Year of same rant!
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» RE: Corgyn: Freudian slip-shod is more like it!!
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» Actually.. BDSM is about happiness
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» Dick Cheney! get back to the table...
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Posted by: UnEasyOne on Nov 22, 2007 3:49 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am willing to acknowledge what some of my ancestors did (some were on the receiving end) and I am more than willing to celebrate Native American culture in any reasonable way.
Jenson is welcome to do what he wants on the holiday but what he suggests isn't gonna catch on. In general, the American people ain't any more into national guilt trips than I am. This has become a day to get together and celebrate family. What he suggests just ain't gonna happen.
Thanksgiving and Native American recognition day is fine with me - and I am all for teaching schoolchildren about the barbarity of both sides - with an eye to explaining the unequal effect it had on the one side and the ruthless efficiency of the other in the extermination/genocide of millions.
The only real effect widespread calls to turn this popular holiday into a national day of atonement before the real (rather than Hollywood) history of the conflict is widely known would be to engender hostility without the possibility of success.
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» RE: I am not into guilt trips
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» RE: I am not into guilt trips
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» Actually, the natives should be thankful the Russian's didn't
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» They can't be thankful for anything.
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» RE: They can't be thankful for anything.
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» RE: Actually, the natives should be thankful the Russian's didn't
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» RE: Actually, the natives should be thankful the Russian's didn't
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» RE: I am not into guilt trips/not on Thanksgiving, anyway
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» RE: I am not into guilt trips
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» It is nothing to do with guilt.
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Posted by: jackburns on Nov 22, 2007 4:00 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I discuss these issues privately with my wife and children and other family members willing to listen. I privately reflect on my own thoughts during the "prayer," the meal and the day.
Being an ogre sure won't get people to listen. About the best you can hope for is for someone to ask you why you feel this way. I believe they have to initiate the conversation, and even then, you have to proceed with care.
I always like to point out that it's day of joy and sadness for me. Joy of being with my family. Sadness for all the reasons noted.
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» dude....stop copying my "screech headline" technique...
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» I dont know which is worse...
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Posted by: kepstein7777 on Nov 22, 2007 4:29 AM
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Posted by: Freedomrider on Nov 22, 2007 4:38 AM
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» RE: Thanksgiving
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Posted by: jesem on Nov 22, 2007 4:44 AM
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Posted by: jakobci on Nov 22, 2007 4:59 AM
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Posted by: pcushniesr on Nov 22, 2007 5:03 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's called "cutting off your nose to spite your own face." I choose to be with my daughter and grandchildren, but I promise to insert some chat about the Thanksgiving mythos to give the young ones something to chew on besides food.
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Posted by: mjabele on Nov 22, 2007 5:02 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One problem with attributing guilt in a "hereditary" fashion is that it's almost always possible for those whom one is pointing fingers at to respond by finding similar examples of persecution in their own pasts. Mass killing, either directly racially motivated or "with ethnic overtones", has been common throughout European history for centuries if not millenia. I won't comment about Asia because I'm less familiar with that continent's history, but I suspect from what I do know that it's not much different. Indeed, from what I've read, some Native American civilizations were not all that much "kinder" toward each other than the Europeans who came afterward.
By all means, we need to confront and rectify what's been done by European-Americans to Native Americans during the previous history of this country. I personally think this is something we should focus on every day rather than just on a single holiday, and, in terms of raising awareness, should perhaps be emphasizing in our education of young people more than anything else.
But Mr. Jensen's campaign to eliminate the Thanksgiving holiday - beyond the fact that it would never work (I'm sure folks would simply continue to celebrate "in secret") - strikes me as little more than a liberal form of vengeance-based thinking. As he points out, this holiday serves as an occasion for families to reunite - not as some sort of commemoration of the Native American genocide - and hence its abolition would merely remove a joyful annual event from the holiday calendar without providing any sort of compensatory relief, or any meaningful historical correlation in people's minds to past events, for that matter. Moreover, beyond the fact that designating a different day of the year to "give thanks" and reunite with family would, in a political sense, probably defeat the original purpose of abolishing the official Thanksgiving holiday, it's a bit doubtful that such a new celebration would ever "catch on" - which is perhaps precisely the point, given that I suspect Mr. Jensen's ultimate objective is really to chastise the descendants of the "genocidaires", rather than enlighten them.
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» RE: Alas, not all of us are as self-sacrificing and deep-thinking as Mr. Jensen...
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Posted by: grumble-bum on Nov 22, 2007 5:03 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Afterwards, I'll be too tired to deal with any gathering, let alone cook anything myself.
So for two years, now, Jensen has been flogging this concept, & he keeps climbing the battlements. Apparently, a few folks agree, although a vast majority thinks otherwise. Well, keep plugging away, Rob. I'd suggest taking on Christmas next (to atone for the repressions of organized Christianity over the millenia), or perhaps Hanukkah (in commiseration with the Palestinians). Or maybe MLK day, 'cause of, you know, those misogynistic thug rappers...?!? You'll get a lot of hits for Alternet for that one, I guarantee it!
I don't celebrate Columbus Day, because it's a holiday set aside to commemorate a particular man, well known to be a particularly nasty jerk. But that doesn't mean I'm going to go around offering my opinions to those who do, unasked for. Nor does it mean that I feel poorly that this hemisphere was "discovered", in general.
The real shame here, in my opinion, is that Jensen is a fairly good, thoughtful writer, who's heart is often in the right place in some ways. The problem for me is that everything he touches is wrapped up in such a profound muddle of guilt. If he feels he must go through life as some sort of martyr for the worlds sins, so be it, but past a certain point, he really needs to stop trying to pull us all down with him.
I was raised in a Progressive Christian home, & as long as I can remember, all holidays (including this one) were approached with thoughtfulness & acknowledgment of the uglier side. & by all means, there should be a national day of atonement to the original peoples of this place. But to push so stridently to have it replace a well-loved tradition such as Thanksgiving is hopeless, & needlessly abrasive. Good luck, dude.
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Posted by: KCDC on Nov 22, 2007 5:11 AM
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» RE: Childish
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» It's not quite as childish as you make out, actually...
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» You have not offered a refutation...
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» Jensen's proposal...
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» "For all of You that hate the US..." ROFLMA!!!!!
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» RE: "For all of You that hate the US..." ROFLMA!!!!!
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» Thanks, MAD.
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» This is an insult???
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» RE: In My Humble Opinion
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» Why should I be the one to move?
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» I agree with the rest of your comments...
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» RE: In My Humble Opinion
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Posted by: GPFrank on Nov 22, 2007 5:15 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
give up the opportunity to feed one's face?"
Actually, with so many people usually eating "New York style", i.e.; standing up, ready to rush to the next meeting, sitting down with the family is not such a bad idea.
But we also need to seek atonement, an emotional process difficult on a full stomach. We also should consider all the broken families and homelessness that is the cost of following the peculiar American religion of "privatization". A political statement but is there really anything "private" about being under corporate ownership? Is there anything "private" about the humiliation of handouts?
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Posted by: rocketman on Nov 22, 2007 5:49 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The way the US government has treated the native population of this country is truly a crime and one that to this day has not been made correct - if it ever could.
That said, the spirit of Thanksgiving really has little to do with the horror we brought upon the true Americans!
It celebrates the successful harvest, a tradition that was established not only in Europe but by the native Americans as well.
Consider this quote -
"Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor, and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me "to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness."" - no it's not George Bush but George Washington!!!!
So instead of trying to dismantle yet another tradition of this country, which was instituted before the horrors we eventually brought upon the natives of America, why not celebrate it and use it as a day to try to help better the plight of others!
Happy Thanksgiving to all you negative souls!
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» Ya, well if "Thanksgiving's" so noble...
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» RE: Ya, well if "Thanksgiving's" so noble...
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» yeah, ignore the details.
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» RE: yeah, ignore the details.
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» RE: Happy Thanksgiving - the most noble of celebrations!
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» Continental
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Posted by: marrieah on Nov 22, 2007 6:06 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You have questioned the history of such celebrations and yes it is built on myth.
It's a collective myth of the whole country, perpetrated to ease the guilt one feels for living a lie.
But not participating is not going to change a thing. It's a national party. Realize what this party is about, make an appearance eat and be merry and all of that good stuff for a few hours, but before you go stop by one of the soup kitchens or something to that effect and contribute a hand.
True, the premise of the celebration of Thanksgiving is built on a lie, but at least in helping someone else enjoy the day, that's about 4 hours really, you will be giving them something to be thankful for if only for a few hours.
At the end of the day, it really about sharing, if only for a day, err 4 hours.
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» Another dodge.
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» Spending 4 hours with family on a certain Thursday in November.....
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Posted by: jabstuart on Nov 22, 2007 6:19 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Still, as a pragmatist at heart, I take issue with your call to completely redefine the Thanksgiving holiday -- it's too ingrained in our culture. What do we gain by relabeling Thanksgiving as genocide? Whatever its history, it has come to symbolize coming together with family and friends and appreciating what we have in life. I totally agree that it's a collective and public holiday, but over time I do think the thanks people give have become more individual/personal in nature and not so much for a supposed peace between Europeans and Native Americans. The myths/lies/variations on the history of Thanksgiving are varied - if anything, they are diluting the "official" version, and reinforcing the personal meaning.
My proposal is this: we should leverage the good will and feelings of tolerance and appreciation that people harken on this holiday and use it to launch an annual public awareness/social marketing campaign. The goal of the campaign would be to correct historically inaccurate versions and celebrate the lessons learned. The first piece of it addresses truth and the second piece reconciliation. Getting at the truth should not be a blame fest or else we'll never get to reconciliation. We learn our biggest lessons from our mistakes, and to me the most important lesson from this history is tolerance. It is astounding the amount of tolerance many Native Americans have demonstrated despite the genocide and oppression of their people throughout U.S. history. We should be thankful for their lesson in being "civilized" and follow it as a model. There is much good to salvage from this holiday, and so much to leverage, it would be a waste to not recognize that insight and learning can be the fruits of wrongs and injustice. Your Holocaust example is a great example of this point. A good place to start with such a campaign might be learning from the work of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: never again. And to your point, why aren't the truths about this holiday featured on its home page?
Short of such a public awareness campaign taking place, perhaps a more pragmatic approach to reddressing the troubling history in which the holiday is rooted than renouncing/not participating in the holiday altogether would be to engage in a lively dinner table discussion. Afterall, conversation and food are a great combination. It's the perfect opportunity moment for a discussion with friends and family members who might have very different political perspectives and education levels about what are the real historical origins of the holiday, and why are there different versions of that history today? Rather than disengage, why not engage? On a final note, the origins of Thanksgiving are more than political - they are also historical and cultural. If framed on broader terms, perhaps you would be less likely to alienate people, and more likely to help them see your view of things. That is a classic tactic for any advocacy campaign.
Have a nice walk. I promise to engage in discussion about this with the family members I'll be visiting and eating with.
--Jennifer Bagnell Stuart
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» RE: Liberals should not be Negative--Look for Positives and draw others to us
Posted by: Len Miller
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Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle on Nov 22, 2007 6:30 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: If we're to have a national Day of Atonement...
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: If we're to have a national Day of Atonement...
Posted by: George Fleming
» RE: If we're to have a national Day of Atonement...
Posted by: George Fleming
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Posted by: wsx on Nov 22, 2007 6:40 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!
Posted by: wisegalah
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Posted by: topview on Nov 22, 2007 6:45 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe, Just maybe the poor working class in America will be happier next year when we take back this country from all those that have bought our Elected officials that are now exploiting another Country and mass killing the people for more resources and corporate greed.
Being bogged down in Iraq isn't slowing them down, as they are looking to destroying another country for more corporate greed at the expense of our young peoples lives and the lives that will be destroyed when we start to bomb Iran.
America has to wake up and stop this GENOCIDE before this country is completely torn apart for the greed of the FILTHY RICH.
Corporations don't Vote but the people do and we have to make that vote count where it will do the best to restore this country for all the people.
So celebrate today and tomorrow start the process to get our country away from the greedy corporations that are controlling every aspect of your life.
Fight for your rights, thats the only way we will be able to celebrate next year.
I suggest we force the impeachment that has already been started by one Grateful congressman Denis Kuchinich.At least it is a start to freedom from this Fascist controlled Government.
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Posted by: NewDeal on Nov 22, 2007 6:48 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Facts? Don't bother.
The relations of the Americans who were here before the large scale movement of Europeans and Africans and the interrelations of all those individuals and societies, is a complex and often contradictory story. Marriages, murders, alliances, betrayals and lots more.
Will this same author write an essay about March 22, 1622?
As many recent immigrants to North America have learned, there is far too much violence and there are far too many blame-issues in all our pasts. If we blindly carry those forward, ignoring positives while only accenting negatives and myths, we damage ourselves as individuals and as societies.
I really feel regret for this person, the institution that pays him and for his students. As Fox News shows, shallow thinking is popular and it pays… at least among shallow listeners, viewers and readers. This sort of superficiality and attack is better suited to Rupert Murdoch than for those of us trying to work for a better world.
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Nov 22, 2007 6:59 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Q30 on Nov 22, 2007 6:59 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do you really want this guy dictating your personal life?
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» RE: You DO realize...
Posted by: Thucy
» You'll see what I mean...
Posted by: Q30
» RE: You'll see what I mean...I thought of mentioning that myself
Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: You DO realize...
Posted by: realist 101
» How do you know...
Posted by: hurricane hugo
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Posted by: radrave on Nov 22, 2007 7:22 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Everyone should give up feeling good about themselves and their families and start mourning. Right. Misery loves company.
The only choice is to confront and offend family members. Right. There are ways to express your opinion without offending others.
Let's all grow up, shall we?
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Posted by: Adam Weishaupt on Nov 22, 2007 7:25 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You've got a big axe to grind, Mr. Jansen, and you're grinding it in the wrong place. Howard Zinn already killed the one really bad holiday - you must have missed that memo.
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Posted by: realist 101 on Nov 22, 2007 7:26 AM
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» RE: The history of mankind...
Posted by: George Fleming
» RE: The history of mankind...
Posted by: realist 101
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Posted by: Intellect on Nov 22, 2007 7:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Pilgrims, according to their religious custom, gave their thanks and prayers in church and not during a communal feast, but they did share the harvest celebration with their Native American benefactors, the Wampanoag.
The first thanksgiving feast was eaten outside as the settlers did not have sufficient space to accommodate everyone in any one particular building. The Native Americans were invited to share the feast as it was they who taught the Pilgrim settlers how to survive, how to successfully grow indigenous food and hunt indigenous animals. The feast was held to rejoice the fruits of the Pilgrim's labors when the crops matured and to give thanks to their Native American benefactors.
Without the assistance of the Native Americans the Pilgrims would likely not have survived.
The Native Americans did bring them food, teach them how to hunt the indigenous animals, grow the various edible plants they would need and welcomed them, but there was no "Thanksgiving Day" as we know it today and it did not become a yearly event in the Pilgrim settlement.
For thousands of years, most cultures did have celebration at the conclusion of the harvest time celebrating the bounty of food - an almost universal holiday that existed way before Christianity and certainly way before the Pilgrims came to America. Most countries of the world celebrate the end of the harvest with a feast.
The Thanksgiving holiday in America was originally established by Abraham Lincoln.
I choose to recognize Thanksgiving simply as a day of thankfulness for the abundance of food we have available rather than the quasi-religious holiday that evolved in America.
It is also a day of family reunion. Nothing wrong with that.
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» RE: Thanksgiving was an "invented" holiday in the US anyway
Posted by: George Fleming
» RE: Thanksgiving was an "invented" holiday in the US anyway
Posted by: Intellect
» RE: Thanksgiving was an "invented" holiday in the US anyway
Posted by: werewolf
» RE: Thanksgiving was an "invented" holiday in the US anyway
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: thehousedog on Nov 22, 2007 7:30 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
people sitting around a table, a famiily, expressing thanks and their belief that tomorrow will be better than today - those days are GONE people, and what's left over are the bones to pick over that once represented hope, peace and a country that stood for something. now we're just a bunch of fat, overstuffed turkeys heading for the slaughter that we've brought on ourselves.
we know all of this and we continue to order seconds.
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» brilliant post.
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
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Posted by: Scientz on Nov 22, 2007 7:38 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: You're really running this divisive crap again?
Posted by: George Fleming
» RE: You're really running this divisive crap again?
Posted by: realist 101
» RE: You're really running this divisive crap again?
Posted by: Astroboy
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Posted by: Bbear41 on Nov 22, 2007 7:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: IT is...
Posted by: sophiej
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Posted by: Sojourner on Nov 22, 2007 7:50 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Instead what we need is a day of mourning for the native American genocide.
I assume that if one is African American, it is OK to skip the sackcloth and ashes. And is it because euro-Americans are so full of gratitude that we don't need any special reminders?
It is not my experience that most even have an idea what gratitude means. Grateful people do not take advantage at every opportunity; do not invade, do not pollute, do not destroy, do not exploit.
Maybe the Pilgrims also weren't grateful enough. But at least they knew it was necessary to come together to be reminded of that fact.
I guess Jensen thinks he's grateful enough already. Grateful people don't usually see themselves that way.
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» Love your last paragraph.
Posted by: mjabele
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Posted by: left-leaning-libertarian on Nov 22, 2007 7:50 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But nothing is gained or achieved in the present by beating myself up over the 400-year-old actions of these fools or trying to atone for their tragic lack of enlightenment. I do what good I can within the small sphere of my ability and that's all I can do. If I have to take a day off in order to feel sorry for myself nothing will be done. If I want to achieve some little good where I am able, I cannot worry about those things I cannot change or over which I have no power.
So instead of whining and piling on the guilt, let's go over to the local homeless shelter or soup kitchen and voluteer; let's donate some stuff we don't really need to a Christmas drive for the needy, let's get off our pie-in-the-sky butts and involve ourselves in the nitty-gritty of the political process so we can change the tragic course this country is now on. And if we want to bring people along with us, we damn well better stop putting stumbling blocks to their "conversion;" making them feel guilty or ashamed for no good reason right from the start; that's what the Puritans did, after all.
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Posted by: sausage on Nov 22, 2007 7:53 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I mean, besides federal, state and local governmental employees, who in the workforce gets all the legal holidays off? I would have included bank and credit union employees in my list but there are a couple of Monday-off holidays that financial instutions tend to ignore, President's Day or something.
But here it is Thanksgiving Day, the second most uniquely American holiday after Independence Day (who calls it that any more?), and folks are working today!
I'm not talking the overpaid football players we'll be watching after filling our gullets on roast turkey and mashed potatoes.
I'm not talking about fire, police, EMTs and those dedicated men and women pulling a double shift in the local emergency room. We should be thankful for those folks' sacrifice for without them the rest of us would be in a world of hurt should something unforesee occur.
No I'm talking about the underpaid, no-benefits folks working at retailers like CompUSA, KMart, and all the "convenience" stores from coast to coast. I bet that if any of you talk to some of these good people they'll tell you their getting neither overtime or any compensatory pay differential for selling cheap crap from China, beer, cigarettes and gasoline today.
But you can bet the CEOs and boardmemebers of all the retail outlets open today will be sitting down to a sumptous Thanksgiving's Day meal with the family gathered round.
If the holiday of Thanksgiving is so f*cking special, don't you agree that everybody, with the exception of necessary emergency workers like police etc., deserves the day off?
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» RE: Holidays in the good ol' US of A are debased anyway
Posted by: Peyotino
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Posted by: Soco on Nov 22, 2007 8:01 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These are the collective sins of humanity which span many nations and cultures over the course of history, not just Americans.
Celebrate the day with the conviction and promise to ensure these horrors don't happen on your shift. Don't support the people who do and dissent.
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Posted by: Urmutt on Nov 22, 2007 8:02 AM
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Just joshing. Actually I empathize with what you are saying BUT it's an 'old story' and you can't really expect to get very far with your call for a Day of Mourning cause it's futile to try to stop Americans from having FUN!
HOWEVER, having given this a lot of thought over the years I have a Compromise solution:
My suggestion would be that we augment the name of the Holiday to Thanksgiving - Native American Day.
This would allow us to establish new ways of celebrating the Holiday such as having huge Pow Wows on the Great Lawn of the White House or around the Reflecting Pool across from the Lincoln Memorial, such to be held of course at every State House in the various States also.
It would also encourage the Media, especially mainstream TV (with the exception of FOX News of course) to provide programs to related about the REAL history of the Holiday and also to provide 'coverage' of the Pow Wows, etc.
I mean that would accommodate everyone, folks could go on having their traditional Feasts and pay their respects to the Native Americans at the same time...
As for Turkeys, Hey ya can't please everyone, but at least this will encourage the Human kind to do a little Soul Searching which as we know is supposed to be another aspect of this Holiday...
Gobble Gobble...
***I'd suggest a 'mock' scalping of George W. Bush dressed in a Pilgrim suit by some Natives in Native dress, as another marvy idea.
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» Don't forget the Jews---
Posted by: WitchyNy
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Posted by: LANCE on Nov 22, 2007 8:10 AM
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Posted by: RoffleTheWaffle on Nov 22, 2007 8:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
At least some of the replies are a lot friendlier and more thought out than last time. I vaguely remember writing an entirely too verbose reply to last year's Thanksgiving tirade, but I couldn't be bothered to retrieve it even if I could. To summarize, however, I felt there are more productive ways we can make up for the crimes of our forefathers than pointless self-loathing. After all, a holiday is what you choose to make of it, and for as far back as I can remember the only time and place where the historical background of the holiday was emphasized was at school. (Since largely inaccurate Thanksgiving myths are so educational.) In my home and in my family, Thanksgiving is recognized and celebrated as a day of giving thanks for what we have and an excuse to make a really nice meal, the leftovers of which would keep us fed for at least a week after. Does that mean I don't care about America's genocidal past? Hell no, and I think everyone should know the score, but I'm not going to screw myself and my family out of a holiday when there are better ways of atoning for my country's crimes that actually accomplish something tangible and meaningful.
Want to make a difference? Go out there and actually try to give the Native American community a leg up. Donate to charity or volunteer or something instead. Be an advocate instead of falling for this 'Liberal Sign Waving' crap. This fasting business is little more than a well-meaning symbolic gesture that ultimately accomplishes nothing, and I for one would find it rather unsatisfying for more reasons than just my empty stomach.
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» RE: This Looks Familiar -
Posted by: Intellect
» RE: This Looks Familiar -
Posted by: ZenMorph
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Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line on Nov 22, 2007 8:18 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» Why don't you ask this question ...
Posted by: sausage
» RE: Why don't you ask this question ...
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Why don't you ask this question ...
Posted by: Astroboy
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Posted by: hagwind on Nov 22, 2007 8:19 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That's what bugs me about proposals like Robert Jensen's, including calls for reparations for slavery. They've all got right on their side, but what's the point? Say we all put our hair shirts on every Thanksgiving; say Congress legislates an apology and a nominal payment to every descendant of an African American slave. Does it change anything? Not much. These are overwhelmingly symbolic issues, and the main beneficiaries are their proponents, who get a big egoboo for being on the side of the angels.
Think of the U.S. of A. as a vast herd of scared cattle (or sheep, or lemmings -- you choose) headed for a cliff. Any cowboy can tell you that if you're trying to deal with a stampede, you don't get out in front and try to stop it. No: you ride with it and try to turn it. That way we all might survive the experience.
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Posted by: mark_proulx on Nov 22, 2007 8:22 AM
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» Hair shirt?
Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle
» RE: Hair shirt?
Posted by: mark_proulx
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Posted by: kroenung58 on Nov 22, 2007 8:38 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I do suggest we drop the Pilgrim bit; it's just absurd to sit in that glass house watching the stones fly. Every culture on earth has a harvest festival in the fall; that's all Thanksgiving really is. If we want to get really finicky about the details, let's remember that this holiday essentially died out in the 19th century and was resurrected in 1863 by Lincoln as a day to give thanks for Gettysburg and other signs that the Union was going to be preserved.
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Nov 22, 2007 8:44 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The planet sucks. Civilizations have dominated and destroyed "the other" since we apes walked (charged?) out of the forest with big sticks (clubs) to protect and defend our territory. (Translation: Man has been killing man over territory since the beginning of mankind.) And as the population of the earth swells ever closer to unsustainable/teetering on the edge of chaos and collapse, it's only going to get worse. Think Iraq, Darfur, etc..
Genocide and Ecocide are happening right now with every breath we take. We can beat ourselves up until we're filled with self-loathing to the point of white guilt suicide over the genocide that Eurotrash perpetuated 400 years ago. But it doesn't change human nature. And Amerikkka is already feeling the squeeze. One hundred years from now, this country will be run by China or ________ (whoever else...insert country name here) buys us on the international financial scene. Our days our numbered here.
Be grateful that you're not in Darfur or Iraq or a survivor of Nazi Germany or a Palestinian or a Hutu or Tutsi or Balkan or Cambodian...or (insert name of any other peoples currently or recently slaughtered)...
Acknowledge the planet-wide ancient atrocities (Sparta vs. Rome) of all peoples everywhere since time begain.
Most of us reading this right now can be grateful that we were born into a time when we are not victims of atrocities that are endless...
This could change at any moment.
For today, be grateful that your street is peaceful, that you have hot water to shower, cold water to drink, and food in your belly.
Most of the world isn't so blessed.
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» RE: We already have days of atonement: Lent, Yom Kippur, Eid...
Posted by: Turiye
» Sorry, I meant Ramadan..my bad
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
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Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Nov 22, 2007 8:47 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While we are stuffing ourselves, they are at work.
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Posted by: MichaelG on Nov 22, 2007 8:48 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Carl Jung, writing in his prescient little sliver of a book, "The Undiscovered Self" in 1957, warned that Americans were "even more vulnerable than Europe", at risk of succumbing to "the infection of a uniform and one-sided idea", much as Germans allowed themselves to be drawn into the Nazi web of deceit, racism, and war-madness. Much of what has occurred since 9/11/2001 suggests to me that Jung's assessment of America and Americans was accurate.
We would do well to heed Bob Jensen's advice and examine our deeply ingrained predjudices.
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Posted by: OldRedleg on Nov 22, 2007 8:51 AM
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Or maybe, as some more astute posters have already pointed out, we should stop beating ourselves up about the past that most of us had nothing to do with and work harder to make the future better so as not to repeat the sins of thee past.
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Posted by: WitchyNy on Nov 22, 2007 8:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was hoping some Native Americans would post here. Maybe as the day goes by...out here in the west we wake up later!
Regarding holidays-Christmas comes to us from the Druids- who worshiped trees. Perhaps we could consider that as our world's forests continue to be cut down...
Regarding Indians-one thing we could all do is buy Christmas Presents from the Native Americans. Many still live in great poverty.
Here in the west, there are little shops on most every res-with Indian made jewlery of tirquoise and silver, handwoven wool rugs, paintings by Indian artists, pottery, many beautiful things.
I am sure you city/easterners could find sites on line.
Good way to protest Corporate Xmas America and help the Native Amerians at the same time.
Thanksgiving comes to us from the ancient harvest festivals.
Good day to remember Mother Earth and what is happening to her.
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» ditto on the tofurkey
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
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Posted by: scenery on Nov 22, 2007 9:13 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There were some isolated national days of thanks declared after some battles or some such events but nothing set in stone until later.
The holiday has evolved and been given a story. It is not the day itself that should be bashed; maybe change the story -- tell the truth about the holiday itself and then start telling the truth in history books.
I think it is good to stop and give thanks in general. I enjoy any occasion for merry making. Turning today into a national day of atonement just sounds like paying lip service to injustice and will not result in real change. It is a good way to feel guilt and get depressed and be of no friggn' use to any kind of movement toward real justice.
I find scarlet letter self flagellating practices somewhat perverse and prefer not to participate in awareness raising at that level. It is not critical literacy. It is reminiscent of puritan guilt; which does not apply to all of us who live in this country.
I like Jensen's articles and pov in general, but it seems he confuses feeling guilt with taking social responsibility.
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» RE: Giving Thanks
Posted by: nellie blogger
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Posted by: realist 101 on Nov 22, 2007 9:49 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Maybe we shouldn't celebrate MLK or black history month...
Posted by: ALANHESTER
» Blame the dealer...
Posted by: hurricane hugo
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Posted by: donl51 on Nov 22, 2007 9:41 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: I must be living now in the age..PS
Posted by: donl51
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Posted by: Libsrule on Nov 22, 2007 10:04 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I cannot believe this drivel is STILL being posted. Ya know what? You want to start having days of atonement and guilt and feeling bad?
Go ahead, the rest of are having a nice day with our family which is what the day truly is about. While it might have once been identified with our first successful days as colonists, it no longer is and I am sick to death of crap like this.
Get over it. It's not going to change and much like how republicans today no longer reflect what republicans USED to be, neither does Thanksgiving for the majority of us.
But give this guilt trip crap a rest already. Go home and enjoy your family and stop trying to ruin it for everyone else.
Besides most Indians I know are cashing in big time and becoming millionaires from their casinos. Their true nature is being revealed with their greed and meanness towards other tribes.
How about going after them? They would actually still attack each other if it was possible. They refuse to help those tribes in trouble and spend millions setting up K Street lobby groups.
So go away.
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Posted by: Robba29 on Nov 22, 2007 10:19 AM
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Posted by: nellie blogger on Nov 22, 2007 10:31 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem with this holiday is that it has been completely dissociated from the truth of its beginnings. The day is now some kind of New Wave, free flowing day of thanks and eating. It doesn't really relate to history any more.
It's also a day where people are supposed to feel good about themselves and their lives. It's very hard to get people to give that up.
But the truth will out. And slowly, the truth of our country's past is becoming known, and over time, the history of Thanksgiving will also be recognized. Until then, if people want to eat turkey and feel grateful, I don't begrudge it. But for myself, I have to be true to what I know and to my ancestors. I let the day go by without pretending or celebrating.
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Posted by: easybeartx on Nov 22, 2007 10:41 AM
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"Surtout, pas de zele." - Talleyrand
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Posted by: apophenia_monkey on Nov 22, 2007 11:00 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
his home and family must be epitomes of warmth and light and love...
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Posted by: apophenia_monkey on Nov 22, 2007 11:01 AM
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» RE: obert, I Wish You A Happy Thanksgiving--Love the Rate Down
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Posted by: hurricane hugo on Nov 22, 2007 11:29 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
plur
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» RE: Happy Illegal Immigration Day to you all!
Posted by: veggiegrrrl
» RE: Happy Illegal Immigration Day to you all!
Posted by: nellie blogger
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Posted by: CV on Nov 22, 2007 11:39 AM
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