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Why We Shouldn't Celebrate Thanksgiving

By Robert Jensen, AlterNet. Posted November 22, 2007.


Thanksgiving Day should be turned into a National Day of Atonement to acknowledge the genocide of America's indigenous peoples.

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After years of being constantly annoyed and often angry about the historical denial built into Thanksgiving Day, I published an essay in November 2005 suggesting we replace the feasting with fasting and create a National Day of Atonement to acknowledge the genocide of indigenous people that is central to the creation of the United States.

I expected criticism from right-wing and centrist people, given their common commitment to this country's distorted self-image that supports the triumphalist/supremacist notions about the United States so common in conventional politics, and I got plenty of such critique. But I was surprised by the resistance from liberals, including a considerable number of my friends.

The most common argument went something like this: OK, it's true that the Thanksgiving Day mythology is rooted in a fraudulent story -- about the European invaders coming in peace to the "New World," eager to cooperate with indigenous people -- which conveniently ignores the reality of European barbarism in the conquest of the continent. But we can reject the culture's self-congratulatory attempts to rewrite history, I have been told, and come together on Thanksgiving to celebrate the love and connections among family and friends.

The argument that we can ignore the collective cultural definition of Thanksgiving and create our own meaning in private has always struck me as odd. This commitment to Thanksgiving puts these left/radical critics in the position of internalizing one of the central messages promoted by the ideologues of capitalism -- that individual behavior in private is more important than collective action in public. The claim that through private action we can create our own reality is one of the key tenets of a predatory corporate capitalism that naturalizes unjust hierarchy, a part of the overall project of discouraging political struggle and encouraging us to retreat into a private realm where life is defined by consumption.

So this November, rather than mount another attack on the national mythology around Thanksgiving -- a mythology that amounts to a kind of holocaust denial, and which has been critiqued for many years by many people -- I want to explore why so many who understand and accept this critique still celebrate Thanksgiving, and why rejecting such celebrations sparks such controversy.

Once we know, what do we do?

At this point in history, anyone who wants to know this reality of U.S. history -- that the extermination of indigenous peoples was, both in a technical, legal sense and in common usage, genocide -- can easily find the resources to know. If this idea is new, I would recommend two books, David E. Stannard's American Holocaust: Columbus and the Conquest of the New World and Ward Churchill's A Little Matter of Genocide. While the concept of genocide, which is defined as the deliberate attempt "to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group," came into existence after World War II, it accurately describes the program that Europeans and their descendants pursued to acquire the territory that would become the United States of America.

Once we know that, what do we do? The moral response -- that is, the response that would be consistent with the moral values around justice and equality that most of us claim to hold -- would be a truth-and-reconciliation process that would not only correct the historical record but also redistribute land and wealth. In the white-supremacist and patriarchal society in which we live, operating within the parameters set by a greed-based capitalist system, such a process is hard to imagine in the short term. So, the question for left/radical people is: What political activity can we engage in to keep alive this kind of critique until a time when social conditions might make a truly progressive politics possible?

In short: Once we know, what do we do in a world that is not yet ready to know, or knows but will not deal with the consequences of that knowledge?


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See more stories tagged with: genocide, thanksgiving, native americans, indigenous people, thanksgiving day mytholog

Robert Jensen is a journalism professor at the University of Texas at Austin, and the author of, most recently, Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity (South End Press, 2007).

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Jungle Boy
Posted by: Jungle Boy on Nov 22, 2007 1:31 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
HURRAY to Robert Jensen for having the First Sane Words about Thanksgiving I've seen this year!!
I received an email asking me to "Have a Happy Turkey Day!!! I replied that most of the turkeys are not happy today!
In the 17th Century(maybe in the 15th, as well), the Pope said it was OK to kill the Indians because they were heathens that would not come to GOD. Today, some would say the same about Muslims. I'm not sure what the justification the Aussies used for the Aborigines.
The regular people in the movie, The Matrix, didn't want to know the Truth and neither do the "regular" people today!
Eat the bird, watch football, then hurry to the sales going on the next day--gotta shop early for Xmas.
Great to hear of someone who is waking up!!

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» Hard to live right Posted by: timemachinist
» RE: Jungle Boy Posted by: donl51
Third Year of same rant!
Posted by: corgyn on Nov 22, 2007 2:24 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Robert, get a new holiday to rant about. This essay is nearly identical to last year's. Is this what you suggest to future journalists? When the well is dry, give an old idea a re-try?
Seems a vein of serious quilt problems runs through all your writings - white men, porn & thanksgiving - what an uplifting set of specialties.
If you'll pardon a bit of amateur analysis.... I some how envision your private life as this secret BDSM acolyte cringing in a dungeon as your big mistress [of color of course] beats the shit out of you in atonement for what ever haunts you. Is that what you'll do today rather than have dinner? Sounds good to me.....

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» RE: Third Year of same rant! Posted by: turttleman
» RE: Wrong target! Posted by: kwms
» Deja Vu Posted by: Cathyblj
I am not into guilt trips
Posted by: UnEasyOne on Nov 22, 2007 3:49 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I got all of that I could use in Cathholic school as a kid.

I am willing to acknowledge what some of my ancestors did (some were on the receiving end) and I am more than willing to celebrate Native American culture in any reasonable way.

Jenson is welcome to do what he wants on the holiday but what he suggests isn't gonna catch on. In general, the American people ain't any more into national guilt trips than I am. This has become a day to get together and celebrate family. What he suggests just ain't gonna happen.

Thanksgiving and Native American recognition day is fine with me - and I am all for teaching schoolchildren about the barbarity of both sides - with an eye to explaining the unequal effect it had on the one side and the ruthless efficiency of the other in the extermination/genocide of millions.

The only real effect widespread calls to turn this popular holiday into a national day of atonement before the real (rather than Hollywood) history of the conflict is widely known would be to engender hostility without the possibility of success.

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» RE: I am not into guilt trips Posted by: outragedDaily
» RE: I am not into guilt trips Posted by: Angel1961
» RE: I am not into guilt trips Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: I am not into guilt trips Posted by: werewolf
» It is nothing to do with guilt. Posted by: wisegalah
Proceed With Care
Posted by: jackburns on Nov 22, 2007 4:00 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Pretty much all true, but I still attend the family gathering for all the reasons mentioned. I don't want to ruin everyone's day, especially the people that worked so hard to prepare a meal.

I discuss these issues privately with my wife and children and other family members willing to listen. I privately reflect on my own thoughts during the "prayer," the meal and the day.

Being an ogre sure won't get people to listen. About the best you can hope for is for someone to ask you why you feel this way. I believe they have to initiate the conversation, and even then, you have to proceed with care.

I always like to point out that it's day of joy and sadness for me. Joy of being with my family. Sadness for all the reasons noted.

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» I dont know which is worse... Posted by: Iconoclast421
Here we go again...
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Nov 22, 2007 4:29 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I tried bringing this up one year...My mother slapped me upside the head and said "Shut up and eat your turkey."...and that was the end of that.

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» RE: Here we go again... Posted by: wisegalah
Thanksgiving
Posted by: Freedomrider on Nov 22, 2007 4:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I give thanks for Jensen and for all the truth tellers. We should all embrace the truth. At first it appears to make life harder, but that is not true. The truth makes life easier and better. We should strive for honesty as individuals and as a group. Honest people are less likely to hurt others, to be lied to or to do or suffer wrong.

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» RE: Thanksgiving Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Thanksgiving Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
jesem
Posted by: jesem on Nov 22, 2007 4:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have often wondered if I was the only person who thought of the founding of America this way. It always struck me as a sad tale even as a young child. Why were we forcing our ways, our religion down these wonderful peoples throat. I ask about it at the time but can't recall the answer. I have never really associated that whole drama with our family gathering. We enjoy being with each other and leave it at that but the guilt is there. It comes with being an American.

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» RE: jesem Posted by: donl51
thanklessgiving
Posted by: jakobci on Nov 22, 2007 4:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are a nation of hypocrites, we are a nation of cowards when it comes to facing our history, to historical accuracy. Our nation is unable to face itself, to face its negative self and openly admit to it. Instead we finds ways of avoiding our history, we use double standards to justify such celebrations and holidays such as Thanksgiving Day, and many get very upset at those point out the obvious hypocrisy of it and criticize such holidays. Such criticism are often tied to ones patriotism because the critics of the critics have no real legitment answer but more lies and more evasion and more diversion. Our governments, over the years have found ways to avoid the truth, to deceive the people, to manipulate the nation to favor its policies. Our history is full of such governmental deception, yet we rather criticize those who point this out than face the truth of it.

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» RE: thanklessgiving Posted by: Astroboy
» RE: thanklessgiving Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: thanklessgiving Posted by: ALANHESTER
» RE: thanklessgiving Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: thanklessgiving Posted by: werewolf
» RE: thanklessgiving Posted by: YogiBear
Cutting off your nose...
Posted by: pcushniesr on Nov 22, 2007 5:03 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"So, what will I do on Thanksgiving Day this year? I'll probably spend part of the day alone. Maybe I'll take a long walk and think about all this. I'll try to be kind and decent to the people I bump into during the day. I'll miss the company of friends and family who are gathering, and I'll try to reflect on why I've made this choice and why this question matters to me. I'll think about why others made the choices they made."

It's called "cutting off your nose to spite your own face." I choose to be with my daughter and grandchildren, but I promise to insert some chat about the Thanksgiving mythos to give the young ones something to chew on besides food.

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Alas, not all of us are as self-sacrificing and deep-thinking as Mr. Jensen...
Posted by: mjabele on Nov 22, 2007 5:02 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I, for one, will be celebrating with family today - giving thanks, amongst other things, for the fact that my Armenian wife and our two children are alive and healthy here in the US, in large part due to the fact that her great-grandparents escaped another kind of genocide in the mountains of what is now eastern Turkey almost a century ago.

One problem with attributing guilt in a "hereditary" fashion is that it's almost always possible for those whom one is pointing fingers at to respond by finding similar examples of persecution in their own pasts. Mass killing, either directly racially motivated or "with ethnic overtones", has been common throughout European history for centuries if not millenia. I won't comment about Asia because I'm less familiar with that continent's history, but I suspect from what I do know that it's not much different. Indeed, from what I've read, some Native American civilizations were not all that much "kinder" toward each other than the Europeans who came afterward.

By all means, we need to confront and rectify what's been done by European-Americans to Native Americans during the previous history of this country. I personally think this is something we should focus on every day rather than just on a single holiday, and, in terms of raising awareness, should perhaps be emphasizing in our education of young people more than anything else.

But Mr. Jensen's campaign to eliminate the Thanksgiving holiday - beyond the fact that it would never work (I'm sure folks would simply continue to celebrate "in secret") - strikes me as little more than a liberal form of vengeance-based thinking. As he points out, this holiday serves as an occasion for families to reunite - not as some sort of commemoration of the Native American genocide - and hence its abolition would merely remove a joyful annual event from the holiday calendar without providing any sort of compensatory relief, or any meaningful historical correlation in people's minds to past events, for that matter. Moreover, beyond the fact that designating a different day of the year to "give thanks" and reunite with family would, in a political sense, probably defeat the original purpose of abolishing the official Thanksgiving holiday, it's a bit doubtful that such a new celebration would ever "catch on" - which is perhaps precisely the point, given that I suspect Mr. Jensen's ultimate objective is really to chastise the descendants of the "genocidaires", rather than enlighten them.

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I Won't Be Celebrating Thanksgiving Today...
Posted by: grumble-bum on Nov 22, 2007 5:03 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why? Because I'll be at work, selling the final few of what amounts to literally tons of locally raised free range & organic turkeys. You know, helping to support non-corporate, non-patri-centric, non-whatever-Jensen-is-peeved-about/feeling guilty-for-today, progressive family businesses.

Afterwards, I'll be too tired to deal with any gathering, let alone cook anything myself.

So for two years, now, Jensen has been flogging this concept, & he keeps climbing the battlements. Apparently, a few folks agree, although a vast majority thinks otherwise. Well, keep plugging away, Rob. I'd suggest taking on Christmas next (to atone for the repressions of organized Christianity over the millenia), or perhaps Hanukkah (in commiseration with the Palestinians). Or maybe MLK day, 'cause of, you know, those misogynistic thug rappers...?!? You'll get a lot of hits for Alternet for that one, I guarantee it!

I don't celebrate Columbus Day, because it's a holiday set aside to commemorate a particular man, well known to be a particularly nasty jerk. But that doesn't mean I'm going to go around offering my opinions to those who do, unasked for. Nor does it mean that I feel poorly that this hemisphere was "discovered", in general.

The real shame here, in my opinion, is that Jensen is a fairly good, thoughtful writer, who's heart is often in the right place in some ways. The problem for me is that everything he touches is wrapped up in such a profound muddle of guilt. If he feels he must go through life as some sort of martyr for the worlds sins, so be it, but past a certain point, he really needs to stop trying to pull us all down with him.

I was raised in a Progressive Christian home, & as long as I can remember, all holidays (including this one) were approached with thoughtfulness & acknowledgment of the uglier side. & by all means, there should be a national day of atonement to the original peoples of this place. But to push so stridently to have it replace a well-loved tradition such as Thanksgiving is hopeless, & needlessly abrasive. Good luck, dude.

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In My Humble Opinion
Posted by: KCDC on Nov 22, 2007 5:11 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For all of you that hate the US so much for all of its past sins, why don't you just move? Please don't say easier said than done, but it's really quite easy to do. Many people do it everyday, just leave the country. If you live in a metro area like, NY, DC, LA and you see so many people from other countries, ask them how it's done. You can do the same, simply leave. When I didn't like the way things were going in Southern, VA because it lacked the job opportunities that I was seeking, I moved. Left family and everything. Now, I know that's not another country, but I still made the decision that instead of crying and whining, like so many hard core lefties like to do, I decided to do something about it. The State Department is a great resource for Americans looking to move overseas. Good Luck to you. My second question for that same group is this, name me one country that has a stellar reputation and didn't grow and expand by stepping on somebody's toes? I always challenge people to do this and to this day, I've never received not one reply. Name me a country that doesn't have a group of people some place that feel oppressed and short changed by the majority? Is that to say it's right, no way, but I will say it's human nature, look around you. People do it all the time. Does the word regentrification (sp) ring a bell to anyone? Pushing out one class (poor in the inner city) to get rich young, often white yuppies to move in for their higher income and lucrative tax base. So spare me the poor, bleeding heart liberal stories about not celebrating Thanksgiving and get a life.

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» RE: Childish Posted by: Angel1961
» Jensen's proposal... Posted by: mjabele
» Thanks, MAD. Posted by: mjabele
» This is an insult??? Posted by: sausage
» RE: In My Humble Opinion Posted by: George Fleming
» RE: In My Humble Opinion Posted by: Ex-Marine
» RE: In My Humble Opinion Posted by: Comfortably Yum
» RE: In My Humble Opinion Posted by: Kucinich lied
» RE: In My Humble Opinion Posted by: rhinojos
» RE: In My Humble Opinion Posted by: ALANHESTER
Opportunity
Posted by: GPFrank on Nov 22, 2007 5:15 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My first impulse to respond is by saying, "Why
give up the opportunity to feed one's face?"
Actually, with so many people usually eating "New York style", i.e.; standing up, ready to rush to the next meeting, sitting down with the family is not such a bad idea.
But we also need to seek atonement, an emotional process difficult on a full stomach. We also should consider all the broken families and homelessness that is the cost of following the peculiar American religion of "privatization". A political statement but is there really anything "private" about being under corporate ownership? Is there anything "private" about the humiliation of handouts?

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Happy Thanksgiving - the most noble of celebrations!
Posted by: rocketman on Nov 22, 2007 5:49 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I never ceases to amazes me how far left ideology seems to be rooted in the discredit of anything American – it has truly defined itself as “Anti American thought”

The way the US government has treated the native population of this country is truly a crime and one that to this day has not been made correct - if it ever could.

That said, the spirit of Thanksgiving really has little to do with the horror we brought upon the true Americans!

It celebrates the successful harvest, a tradition that was established not only in Europe but by the native Americans as well.

Consider this quote -
"Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor, and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me "to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness."" - no it's not George Bush but George Washington!!!!

So instead of trying to dismantle yet another tradition of this country, which was instituted before the horrors we eventually brought upon the natives of America, why not celebrate it and use it as a day to try to help better the plight of others!

Happy Thanksgiving to all you negative souls!

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» yeah, ignore the details. Posted by: Coleman
» RE: yeah, ignore the details. Posted by: rocketman
» Continental Posted by: YogiBear
Celebrating Thanksgiving Day
Posted by: marrieah on Nov 22, 2007 6:06 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
O K, the premise is correct. Most of the days we celebrate is built on BS. Be that as it may this country is a capitalistic country. Always have been, always will be.

You have questioned the history of such celebrations and yes it is built on myth.

It's a collective myth of the whole country, perpetrated to ease the guilt one feels for living a lie.

But not participating is not going to change a thing. It's a national party. Realize what this party is about, make an appearance eat and be merry and all of that good stuff for a few hours, but before you go stop by one of the soup kitchens or something to that effect and contribute a hand.

True, the premise of the celebration of Thanksgiving is built on a lie, but at least in helping someone else enjoy the day, that's about 4 hours really, you will be giving them something to be thankful for if only for a few hours.

At the end of the day, it really about sharing, if only for a day, err 4 hours.

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» Another dodge. Posted by: Coleman
A pragmatic point of view
Posted by: jabstuart on Nov 22, 2007 6:19 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I love your thought experiment/analogy with the Holocaust as it likely resounds with many mainstream liberals and even centrists. I haven't read the texts you cite, but I have studied Native American history more than a lot of people and read the first chapter of Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States - and have a little Native American ancestry myselft. No disagreement that massive genocide against the first Americans took place. Interestingly, I just read "Squanto's Journey" that my second grade daughter brought home from school. It is a (very tolerant) Native American version of the holiday's origins. I was skeptical about its accuracy at first, but the author notes credible (and Native American) sources on which the child's story is based.

Still, as a pragmatist at heart, I take issue with your call to completely redefine the Thanksgiving holiday -- it's too ingrained in our culture. What do we gain by relabeling Thanksgiving as genocide? Whatever its history, it has come to symbolize coming together with family and friends and appreciating what we have in life. I totally agree that it's a collective and public holiday, but over time I do think the thanks people give have become more individual/personal in nature and not so much for a supposed peace between Europeans and Native Americans. The myths/lies/variations on the history of Thanksgiving are varied - if anything, they are diluting the "official" version, and reinforcing the personal meaning.

My proposal is this: we should leverage the good will and feelings of tolerance and appreciation that people harken on this holiday and use it to launch an annual public awareness/social marketing campaign. The goal of the campaign would be to correct historically inaccurate versions and celebrate the lessons learned. The first piece of it addresses truth and the second piece reconciliation. Getting at the truth should not be a blame fest or else we'll never get to reconciliation. We learn our biggest lessons from our mistakes, and to me the most important lesson from this history is tolerance. It is astounding the amount of tolerance many Native Americans have demonstrated despite the genocide and oppression of their people throughout U.S. history. We should be thankful for their lesson in being "civilized" and follow it as a model. There is much good to salvage from this holiday, and so much to leverage, it would be a waste to not recognize that insight and learning can be the fruits of wrongs and injustice. Your Holocaust example is a great example of this point. A good place to start with such a campaign might be learning from the work of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum: never again. And to your point, why aren't the truths about this holiday featured on its home page?

Short of such a public awareness campaign taking place, perhaps a more pragmatic approach to reddressing the troubling history in which the holiday is rooted than renouncing/not participating in the holiday altogether would be to engage in a lively dinner table discussion. Afterall, conversation and food are a great combination. It's the perfect opportunity moment for a discussion with friends and family members who might have very different political perspectives and education levels about what are the real historical origins of the holiday, and why are there different versions of that history today? Rather than disengage, why not engage? On a final note, the origins of Thanksgiving are more than political - they are also historical and cultural. If framed on broader terms, perhaps you would be less likely to alienate people, and more likely to help them see your view of things. That is a classic tactic for any advocacy campaign.

Have a nice walk. I promise to engage in discussion about this with the family members I'll be visiting and eating with.
--Jennifer Bagnell Stuart

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If we're to have a national Day of Atonement...
Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle on Nov 22, 2007 6:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...I suggest February 5, the day Colin Powell acquired that "blot on his record." His speech was completely in keeping with all the false justifications for wars and other assorted blots on America's record throughout its history.

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Happy Thanksgiving Everyone!
Posted by: wsx on Nov 22, 2007 6:40 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Any way you look at, through the history of man and compared to many, we here in the US have it pretty good. We have much for which to be thankful. Enjoy the day.

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We are all being exploited now by Corporate America
Posted by: topview on Nov 22, 2007 6:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Eat and Enjoy the Holiday, as Corporate America will love you for it. And tomorrow they will love you more as they will really benefit from the mass who will rush into their stores to build up their profits for the next Holiday.
Maybe, Just maybe the poor working class in America will be happier next year when we take back this country from all those that have bought our Elected officials that are now exploiting another Country and mass killing the people for more resources and corporate greed.

Being bogged down in Iraq isn't slowing them down, as they are looking to destroying another country for more corporate greed at the expense of our young peoples lives and the lives that will be destroyed when we start to bomb Iran.

America has to wake up and stop this GENOCIDE before this country is completely torn apart for the greed of the FILTHY RICH.
Corporations don't Vote but the people do and we have to make that vote count where it will do the best to restore this country for all the people.
So celebrate today and tomorrow start the process to get our country away from the greedy corporations that are controlling every aspect of your life.
Fight for your rights, thats the only way we will be able to celebrate next year.
I suggest we force the impeachment that has already been started by one Grateful congressman Denis Kuchinich.At least it is a start to freedom from this Fascist controlled Government.

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Simple Minded
Posted by: NewDeal on Nov 22, 2007 6:48 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course, it is difficult to get an article or book published by being objective and well researched. Sound-bites have become more the rage in collegiate departments, as employees contend for attention and, thereby, class-attendance and, thereby, more money. There we see true capitalism, perhaps uglier than Wal-Mart and Blackwater, in full operation.

Facts? Don't bother.

The relations of the Americans who were here before the large scale movement of Europeans and Africans and the interrelations of all those individuals and societies, is a complex and often contradictory story. Marriages, murders, alliances, betrayals and lots more.

Will this same author write an essay about March 22, 1622?

As many recent immigrants to North America have learned, there is far too much violence and there are far too many blame-issues in all our pasts. If we blindly carry those forward, ignoring positives while only accenting negatives and myths, we damage ourselves as individuals and as societies.

I really feel regret for this person, the institution that pays him and for his students. As Fox News shows, shallow thinking is popular and it pays… at least among shallow listeners, viewers and readers. This sort of superficiality and attack is better suited to Rupert Murdoch than for those of us trying to work for a better world.

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AMERICANS ARE NOT FLAWLESS
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Nov 22, 2007 6:59 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But I don't believe a day set aside to 'beat ourselves' would serve a purpose.Despite our imperfections, we continue to be the most generous people in the world.Check out the tons of food donated so that everyone cna have enough today to celebrate. Then take a look at the reasons why they don't have enough to begin with.You are preaching to the choir. I'm off to see the rest of the family.Have a Happy Thansgiving. ANNA

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You DO realize...
Posted by: Q30 on Nov 22, 2007 6:59 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...that Robert Jensen is a man who is literally terrified of his own genitals and basically believes that all men have been raised to be rapists, right?

Do you really want this guy dictating your personal life?

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» RE: You DO realize... Posted by: Thucy
» RE: You DO realize... Posted by: realist 101
» How do you know... Posted by: hurricane hugo
Silly beyond belief
Posted by: radrave on Nov 22, 2007 7:22 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The author claims to know the "reality of US History" and helpfully provides two books. Right. As if any one or two books could capture the complexity of US history.

Everyone should give up feeling good about themselves and their families and start mourning. Right. Misery loves company.

The only choice is to confront and offend family members. Right. There are ways to express your opinion without offending others.

Let's all grow up, shall we?

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Idiocy
Posted by: Adam Weishaupt on Nov 22, 2007 7:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hilarious. I just had Thanksgiving Dinner in Beijing, far away from home, with people from various countries and corners of the world, and we all went around the table and said something we were thankful for. Among these nefarious trappings of holocaust denial were our friends, families, turkey, colleagues, and being together. Yeah, we're all in denial, especially the non-Americans who chose to share their evening breaking bread with us. Oh, wait, we're just perpetuating Neo-Imperialist Denial among other cultures by eating turkey with them. Wait, we're also eating meat - oh, hell, we're pure evil.

You've got a big axe to grind, Mr. Jansen, and you're grinding it in the wrong place. Howard Zinn already killed the one really bad holiday - you must have missed that memo.

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The history of mankind...
Posted by: realist 101 on Nov 22, 2007 7:26 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...is the story of people moving all over the world, interacting and clashing. Get over it. Injustice didn't begin in the United States and some of us have ancestors who went from victims to middle class without walowing in victimhood. What were the so-called indigenous people doing to each other before they met people from another continent? Too often people fail to examine the poor choices that certain leaders made that resulted in losses for their people. Americans of 2007 have that to look forward to under our current national leadership, but that's another story. Back to the point, the tomahawk was never a weapon of peace. The allegedly poor, innocent, saintly indigenous were more often than not hacking away savagely at each other long before Europeans arrived. History's losers need to realize what century they live in and get on with their lives. I always thought Thanksgiving was for giving thanks for what good fortune one has. I'm glad I'm living in a society that allows me to criticize freely. Can people in Venezuela or Cuba do that? The author of this article should take time this holiday to give thanks for being lucky enough to be free to write such self-flagellating, pious horse manure AND be able to find a newsletter wacky enough to print this hypocritical nonsense.

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» RE: The history of mankind... Posted by: George Fleming
» RE: The history of mankind... Posted by: realist 101
Thanksgiving was an "invented" holiday in the US anyway
Posted by: Intellect on Nov 22, 2007 7:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The pictures we are always shown of the "first" thanksgiving were not accurate anyway.
Pilgrims, according to their religious custom, gave their thanks and prayers in church and not during a communal feast, but they did share the harvest celebration with their Native American benefactors, the Wampanoag.

The first thanksgiving feast was eaten outside as the settlers did not have sufficient space to accommodate everyone in any one particular building. The Native Americans were invited to share the feast as it was they who taught the Pilgrim settlers how to survive, how to successfully grow indigenous food and hunt indigenous animals. The feast was held to rejoice the fruits of the Pilgrim's labors when the crops matured and to give thanks to their Native American benefactors.

Without the assistance of the Native Americans the Pilgrims would likely not have survived.
The Native Americans did bring them food, teach them how to hunt the indigenous animals, grow the various edible plants they would need and welcomed them, but there was no "Thanksgiving Day" as we know it today and it did not become a yearly event in the Pilgrim settlement.

For thousands of years, most cultures did have celebration at the conclusion of the harvest time celebrating the bounty of food - an almost universal holiday that existed way before Christianity and certainly way before the Pilgrims came to America. Most countries of the world celebrate the end of the harvest with a feast.

The Thanksgiving holiday in America was originally established by Abraham Lincoln.

I choose to recognize Thanksgiving simply as a day of thankfulness for the abundance of food we have available rather than the quasi-religious holiday that evolved in America.
It is also a day of family reunion. Nothing wrong with that.

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thankful for what in this day and age?
Posted by: thehousedog on Nov 22, 2007 7:30 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am thankful that we live in a country that was founded on the belief that all people should be free, and we celebrate how we've thrown that freedom away. I am thankful that we live in a country that was conceived in liberty to be a democracy, and we have let a cabal of idiots take over our government while we grazed on turkey and reality shows on televion that are anything but reality. I am thankful that we continue to look inward and be self critical about events that happened hundreds of years ago - shameful as they are - yet we do nothing about the murders committed in our name around the world and even in this country. yes, i'm really thankful that america is so great.

people sitting around a table, a famiily, expressing thanks and their belief that tomorrow will be better than today - those days are GONE people, and what's left over are the bones to pick over that once represented hope, peace and a country that stood for something. now we're just a bunch of fat, overstuffed turkeys heading for the slaughter that we've brought on ourselves.

we know all of this and we continue to order seconds.

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» brilliant post. Posted by: veggiegrrrl
You're really running this divisive crap again?
Posted by: Scientz on Nov 22, 2007 7:38 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Robert, eat your damned turkey and shut up!!

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IT is...
Posted by: Bbear41 on Nov 22, 2007 7:50 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... A Harvest feast. Harvest feasts are as old as agriculture

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» RE: IT is... Posted by: sophiej
On being ungrateful
Posted by: Sojourner on Nov 22, 2007 7:50 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jensen says it is not good enough to "come together on Thanksgiving to celebrate the love and connections among family and friends."

Instead what we need is a day of mourning for the native American genocide.

I assume that if one is African American, it is OK to skip the sackcloth and ashes. And is it because euro-Americans are so full of gratitude that we don't need any special reminders?

It is not my experience that most even have an idea what gratitude means. Grateful people do not take advantage at every opportunity; do not invade, do not pollute, do not destroy, do not exploit.

Maybe the Pilgrims also weren't grateful enough. But at least they knew it was necessary to come together to be reminded of that fact.

I guess Jensen thinks he's grateful enough already. Grateful people don't usually see themselves that way.

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» Love your last paragraph. Posted by: mjabele
Jensen, again?
Posted by: left-leaning-libertarian on Nov 22, 2007 7:50 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I WILL NOT put on sack cloth and ashes over the sins of my ancestors. I am descended directly from one of the so-called "pilgrims," Francis Cooke. Yes, yes, yes, they were a bunch of hypocritical a**h***s and one of Francis' sons, Caleb, was the guy who actually murdered King Phillip, thus firing one of the opening volleys in the ultimate genocide of the native Americans. Believe me, I take no pride in this whatsoever.

But nothing is gained or achieved in the present by beating myself up over the 400-year-old actions of these fools or trying to atone for their tragic lack of enlightenment. I do what good I can within the small sphere of my ability and that's all I can do. If I have to take a day off in order to feel sorry for myself nothing will be done. If I want to achieve some little good where I am able, I cannot worry about those things I cannot change or over which I have no power.

So instead of whining and piling on the guilt, let's go over to the local homeless shelter or soup kitchen and voluteer; let's donate some stuff we don't really need to a Christmas drive for the needy, let's get off our pie-in-the-sky butts and involve ourselves in the nitty-gritty of the political process so we can change the tragic course this country is now on. And if we want to bring people along with us, we damn well better stop putting stumbling blocks to their "conversion;" making them feel guilty or ashamed for no good reason right from the start; that's what the Puritans did, after all.

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Holidays in the good ol' US of A are debased anyway
Posted by: sausage on Nov 22, 2007 7:53 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Holidays are in the United States are jokes.

I mean, besides federal, state and local governmental employees, who in the workforce gets all the legal holidays off? I would have included bank and credit union employees in my list but there are a couple of Monday-off holidays that financial instutions tend to ignore, President's Day or something.

But here it is Thanksgiving Day, the second most uniquely American holiday after Independence Day (who calls it that any more?), and folks are working today!

I'm not talking the overpaid football players we'll be watching after filling our gullets on roast turkey and mashed potatoes.

I'm not talking about fire, police, EMTs and those dedicated men and women pulling a double shift in the local emergency room. We should be thankful for those folks' sacrifice for without them the rest of us would be in a world of hurt should something unforesee occur.

No I'm talking about the underpaid, no-benefits folks working at retailers like CompUSA, KMart, and all the "convenience" stores from coast to coast. I bet that if any of you talk to some of these good people they'll tell you their getting neither overtime or any compensatory pay differential for selling cheap crap from China, beer, cigarettes and gasoline today.

But you can bet the CEOs and boardmemebers of all the retail outlets open today will be sitting down to a sumptous Thanksgiving's Day meal with the family gathered round.

If the holiday of Thanksgiving is so f*cking special, don't you agree that everybody, with the exception of necessary emergency workers like police etc., deserves the day off?

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Another
Posted by: Soco on Nov 22, 2007 8:01 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Sins of the father" argument in which I took no part of yet I am to blame.

These are the collective sins of humanity which span many nations and cultures over the course of history, not just Americans.

Celebrate the day with the conviction and promise to ensure these horrors don't happen on your shift. Don't support the people who do and dissent.

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The GOBBLER
Posted by: Urmutt on Nov 22, 2007 8:02 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
SO THEN Bob, I guess it's cool for us to go ahead and eat YOUR Turkey and Pumpkin Pie...

Just joshing. Actually I empathize with what you are saying BUT it's an 'old story' and you can't really expect to get very far with your call for a Day of Mourning cause it's futile to try to stop Americans from having FUN!

HOWEVER, having given this a lot of thought over the years I have a Compromise solution:

My suggestion would be that we augment the name of the Holiday to Thanksgiving - Native American Day.

This would allow us to establish new ways of celebrating the Holiday such as having huge Pow Wows on the Great Lawn of the White House or around the Reflecting Pool across from the Lincoln Memorial, such to be held of course at every State House in the various States also.

It would also encourage the Media, especially mainstream TV (with the exception of FOX News of course) to provide programs to related about the REAL history of the Holiday and also to provide 'coverage' of the Pow Wows, etc.

I mean that would accommodate everyone, folks could go on having their traditional Feasts and pay their respects to the Native Americans at the same time...

As for Turkeys, Hey ya can't please everyone, but at least this will encourage the Human kind to do a little Soul Searching which as we know is supposed to be another aspect of this Holiday...
Gobble Gobble...

***I'd suggest a 'mock' scalping of George W. Bush dressed in a Pilgrim suit by some Natives in Native dress, as another marvy idea.

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» Don't forget the Jews--- Posted by: WitchyNy
Drool
Posted by: LANCE on Nov 22, 2007 8:10 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bush is in Crawford smirking at a plastic turkey and drooling all over the table.

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This Looks Familiar -
Posted by: RoffleTheWaffle on Nov 22, 2007 8:12 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Didn't we have this article last year, same picture and all? I'm just having some serious deja vu, it seems terribly familiar.

At least some of the replies are a lot friendlier and more thought out than last time. I vaguely remember writing an entirely too verbose reply to last year's Thanksgiving tirade, but I couldn't be bothered to retrieve it even if I could. To summarize, however, I felt there are more productive ways we can make up for the crimes of our forefathers than pointless self-loathing. After all, a holiday is what you choose to make of it, and for as far back as I can remember the only time and place where the historical background of the holiday was emphasized was at school. (Since largely inaccurate Thanksgiving myths are so educational.) In my home and in my family, Thanksgiving is recognized and celebrated as a day of giving thanks for what we have and an excuse to make a really nice meal, the leftovers of which would keep us fed for at least a week after. Does that mean I don't care about America's genocidal past? Hell no, and I think everyone should know the score, but I'm not going to screw myself and my family out of a holiday when there are better ways of atoning for my country's crimes that actually accomplish something tangible and meaningful.

Want to make a difference? Go out there and actually try to give the Native American community a leg up. Donate to charity or volunteer or something instead. Be an advocate instead of falling for this 'Liberal Sign Waving' crap. This fasting business is little more than a well-meaning symbolic gesture that ultimately accomplishes nothing, and I for one would find it rather unsatisfying for more reasons than just my empty stomach.

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» RE: This Looks Familiar - Posted by: Intellect
» RE: This Looks Familiar - Posted by: ZenMorph
Abundance and blessings
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line on Nov 22, 2007 8:18 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was recently challenged to come up with 150 blessings that make up my life. I could not come up with 150, I came up with closer to 200, and am adding them daily...... If everybody took this challenge they would see just what stunning abundance there really is in the world... It is as simple as a smile from a stranger or as big as gettting a raise or whatever it is;.... I can name five really incredible blessings that I have noticed today and it is not even NOON. Every day is Thanksgiving if you look at it right... Any day that you wake up is a day that is a blessing....Feel free to disagree.... I would call that a blessing too...

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» RE: Why don't you ask this question ... Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
What's the point in being "dead right"?
Posted by: hagwind on Nov 22, 2007 8:19 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Long time ago the motor vehicles registry in my state ran a PR campaign, the gist of which was "Don't be dead right" -- meaning, more or less, that you can have the law and common sense on your side and still get broadsided by someone running a red light if you aren't paying attention. (And sometimes even if you are paying attention, of course; the point is that in real life being right often isn't enough.)

That's what bugs me about proposals like Robert Jensen's, including calls for reparations for slavery. They've all got right on their side, but what's the point? Say we all put our hair shirts on every Thanksgiving; say Congress legislates an apology and a nominal payment to every descendant of an African American slave. Does it change anything? Not much. These are overwhelmingly symbolic issues, and the main beneficiaries are their proponents, who get a big egoboo for being on the side of the angels.

Think of the U.S. of A. as a vast herd of scared cattle (or sheep, or lemmings -- you choose) headed for a cliff. Any cowboy can tell you that if you're trying to deal with a stampede, you don't get out in front and try to stop it. No: you ride with it and try to turn it. That way we all might survive the experience.

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Three cheers for your Mom!
Posted by: mark_proulx on Nov 22, 2007 8:22 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We ought to pool our money and buy the author a hairshirt to wear during the holidays.

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» Hair shirt? Posted by: Chickensh*tEagle
» RE: Hair shirt? Posted by: mark_proulx
Don't you know that Americans don't admit error?
Posted by: kroenung58 on Nov 22, 2007 8:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While a national day of atonement might be a good idea (one more area where the Jews are more enlightened than the rest of us), it's unlikely to happen. Americans aren't fond of admitting collective error and are REALLY not fond of institutionalizing it. Sure, we paid a little $ to the Japanese we interned, but that's about where we stop. Dadgummit it, we're the chosen people. We don't apologize. That's what the rest of the world should be doing. We don't make mistakes or commit outrages. If we do it, it must be right.
I do suggest we drop the Pilgrim bit; it's just absurd to sit in that glass house watching the stones fly. Every culture on earth has a harvest festival in the fall; that's all Thanksgiving really is. If we want to get really finicky about the details, let's remember that this holiday essentially died out in the 19th century and was resurrected in 1863 by Lincoln as a day to give thanks for Gettysburg and other signs that the Union was going to be preserved.

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We already have days of atonement: Lent, Yom Kippur, Eid...
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Nov 22, 2007 8:44 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We already have days of atonement: Lent, Yom Kippur, Eid...

The planet sucks. Civilizations have dominated and destroyed "the other" since we apes walked (charged?) out of the forest with big sticks (clubs) to protect and defend our territory. (Translation: Man has been killing man over territory since the beginning of mankind.) And as the population of the earth swells ever closer to unsustainable/teetering on the edge of chaos and collapse, it's only going to get worse. Think Iraq, Darfur, etc..
Genocide and Ecocide are happening right now with every breath we take. We can beat ourselves up until we're filled with self-loathing to the point of white guilt suicide over the genocide that Eurotrash perpetuated 400 years ago. But it doesn't change human nature. And Amerikkka is already feeling the squeeze. One hundred years from now, this country will be run by China or ________ (whoever else...insert country name here) buys us on the international financial scene. Our days our numbered here.
Be grateful that you're not in Darfur or Iraq or a survivor of Nazi Germany or a Palestinian or a Hutu or Tutsi or Balkan or Cambodian...or (insert name of any other peoples currently or recently slaughtered)...
Acknowledge the planet-wide ancient atrocities (Sparta vs. Rome) of all peoples everywhere since time begain.
Most of us reading this right now can be grateful that we were born into a time when we are not victims of atrocities that are endless...
This could change at any moment.
For today, be grateful that your street is peaceful, that you have hot water to shower, cold water to drink, and food in your belly.
Most of the world isn't so blessed.

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» Sorry, I meant Ramadan..my bad Posted by: veggiegrrrl
Be grateful for the airline, train, bus and gas station workers
Posted by: veggiegrrrl on Nov 22, 2007 8:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Be grateful for the airline, train, bus and gas station workers who make it possible for folks to visit friends and family.

While we are stuffing ourselves, they are at work.

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Thanksgiving Day Red, White, and Blue
Posted by: MichaelG on Nov 22, 2007 8:48 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We spent most of 1990 in what was then still West Germany. Soon after our arrival, I was walking with my wife to work one morning in the small city where she had found work. When came to a street in the pedestrian zone downtown, we stopped with others at the crosswalk. We were puzzled when, looking one way and then the other, we saw not a car in sight. No traffic. Yet here were ten or a dozen people on both sides of the street waiting for small automated, electronically operated signs to give them permission to cross the empty street. At that moment, a question that had been simmering in my mind for days was answered. The question was: "How could these people, these polite, pleasant, thoughtful, talented, industrious Germans ever have allowed themselves to be drawn into the genocidal insanity of Nazi racism? Answer: For the same reason they would stand waiting at the curb of an empty street waiting for permission to cross, permission from a blind and mindless machine. They were and are still to a surprising extent willing to take orders from a state bureaucracy without giving much thought to the legitimacy of those orders. As the weeks and months passed and I came to know some of the Germans and some ex-pat Britons who we lived among and worked with in that city, I came to realize that in many ways we Americans are more like Germans than Brits. We, like the Germans, tend to be more gregarious than Brits, for one thing. And we are, perhaps, less reserved, more aggressive, and more willing to take orders from an aggressive, authoritarian state.

Carl Jung, writing in his prescient little sliver of a book, "The Undiscovered Self" in 1957, warned that Americans were "even more vulnerable than Europe", at risk of succumbing to "the infection of a uniform and one-sided idea", much as Germans allowed themselves to be drawn into the Nazi web of deceit, racism, and war-madness. Much of what has occurred since 9/11/2001 suggests to me that Jung's assessment of America and Americans was accurate.

We would do well to heed Bob Jensen's advice and examine our deeply ingrained predjudices.

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Stirring the Pot
Posted by: OldRedleg on Nov 22, 2007 8:51 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I wonder if Mr Jensen will (or should) next write an article about why we should not celebrate Christmas since it is well documented in history how the Christians (many of whom actually believed they were following the teachings of Christ) brutally oppressed both non-Christians and fellow Christians in the most heinous ways. Besides, some historians believe that Christ was not born at the end of December as celebrated, and that many of the current trappings used to celebrate his birthday are mere adaptations of former "pagan" (gasp!!) rituals to celebrate the winter solstice and the transition to a hopeful spring.

Or maybe, as some more astute posters have already pointed out, we should stop beating ourselves up about the past that most of us had nothing to do with and work harder to make the future better so as not to repeat the sins of thee past.

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My Thanksgiving
Posted by: WitchyNy on Nov 22, 2007 8:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My family is having Tofurky today. It IS very tasty-my boys love it. Big squashes from our own garden and homemade bread.

I was hoping some Native Americans would post here. Maybe as the day goes by...out here in the west we wake up later!

Regarding holidays-Christmas comes to us from the Druids- who worshiped trees. Perhaps we could consider that as our world's forests continue to be cut down...

Regarding Indians-one thing we could all do is buy Christmas Presents from the Native Americans. Many still live in great poverty.

Here in the west, there are little shops on most every res-with Indian made jewlery of tirquoise and silver, handwoven wool rugs, paintings by Indian artists, pottery, many beautiful things.
I am sure you city/easterners could find sites on line.
Good way to protest Corporate Xmas America and help the Native Amerians at the same time.

Thanksgiving comes to us from the ancient harvest festivals.
Good day to remember Mother Earth and what is happening to her.

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» ditto on the tofurkey Posted by: veggiegrrrl
Giving Thanks
Posted by: scenery on Nov 22, 2007 9:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As I understood history, we really did not have Thanksgiving until way after the Pilgrims feasted with the Wampanoag.

There were some isolated national days of thanks declared after some battles or some such events but nothing set in stone until later.

The holiday has evolved and been given a story. It is not the day itself that should be bashed; maybe change the story -- tell the truth about the holiday itself and then start telling the truth in history books.

I think it is good to stop and give thanks in general. I enjoy any occasion for merry making. Turning today into a national day of atonement just sounds like paying lip service to injustice and will not result in real change. It is a good way to feel guilt and get depressed and be of no friggn' use to any kind of movement toward real justice.

I find scarlet letter self flagellating practices somewhat perverse and prefer not to participate in awareness raising at that level. It is not critical literacy. It is reminiscent of puritan guilt; which does not apply to all of us who live in this country.

I like Jensen's articles and pov in general, but it seems he confuses feeling guilt with taking social responsibility.

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» RE: Giving Thanks Posted by: nellie blogger
Maybe we shouldn't celebrate MLK or black history month...
Posted by: realist 101 on Nov 22, 2007 9:49 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...Since Africans captured and sold slaves to the Europeans. Those bad, baaaad people.

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» Blame the dealer... Posted by: hurricane hugo
I must be living now in the age
Posted by: donl51 on Nov 22, 2007 9:41 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
of hindsight is 20/20! Nice gesture ,why don't we give the entire country back to the Indians altogether and all move back to the countries our ancestors came from! better yet, why don't we teach the 90% who've no idea why we do what we do on this day, and how the hell do you know thankgiving was bogus? suppose you learned from the same people who claim their's a god right? or perhaps somebody's out there changing our history right? Holocaust never happened right? granted there are lots of lies pertaining to history that have been righted,mostly on a political level,like what act led the US. to go to war in Vietnam! So this ''wrong'' celebration bothers you,tell me does it bother the ancestors of the partipating indians? I swear all I hear anymore from one person or another all the wrongs of our past all the questionable true tales, Yeah well I question the bible,!I question you and people like you,I question my Gov.I read practically everything worth reading and yet I've found nothing that claims thansgiving day did not exist as believed ,tell you what lets use this as a celebration that G.W. hasn't led us into ww3 yet and we/re still alive!!

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What a load of BS
Posted by: Libsrule on Nov 22, 2007 10:04 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
JeezusHChrist,

I cannot believe this drivel is STILL being posted. Ya know what? You want to start having days of atonement and guilt and feeling bad?

Go ahead, the rest of are having a nice day with our family which is what the day truly is about. While it might have once been identified with our first successful days as colonists, it no longer is and I am sick to death of crap like this.

Get over it. It's not going to change and much like how republicans today no longer reflect what republicans USED to be, neither does Thanksgiving for the majority of us.

But give this guilt trip crap a rest already. Go home and enjoy your family and stop trying to ruin it for everyone else.

Besides most Indians I know are cashing in big time and becoming millionaires from their casinos. Their true nature is being revealed with their greed and meanness towards other tribes.

How about going after them? They would actually still attack each other if it was possible. They refuse to help those tribes in trouble and spend millions setting up K Street lobby groups.

So go away.

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Problems
Posted by: Robba29 on Nov 22, 2007 10:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I mean, wow. You are going to condemn everybody who disagrees with you--excellent, and you have the nerve to make them out to equivalent of Holocaust deniers. What does that make you? The guy waiting outside Area 51? I would 100% agree with you that Columbus Day should be renamed the National Day of Atonement--because he's the one who started it, actually did it, and whose actions are conveniently forgotten (very much denied in this sense). However, Thanksgiving, while chosen on this day for symbolic purposes that reek of racism has little to do with the actual genocide. That was a whole other mentality. In your articulation of capitalism you get it wrong, it is not the private that trumps the public, but the private action in the public sphere--otherwise you have egoism, which actually destroys capitalism (go back and read Adam Smith smart guy). The transformative nature of capitalism and societies in general can shape meaning however they like. It is their wont to do so. When do we move past a former singular meaning to a more collective meaning that does not resemble the origin? We see that in many forms--such as the taking back of "queer". Yes, sometimes re-signification does not work, like the N word which has too much history. But Thanksgiving didn't have that history--we attached it later with our knowledge of history, but even the initial event itself had little to do with the violence that was occurring further south by the Spanish or what would occur in only a few years later in the north. Seriously, let it go.

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The truth hurts
Posted by: nellie blogger on Nov 22, 2007 10:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For me, this holiday has become like Columbus Day. I don't celebrate Columbus because of the brutal history associated with his exploration. I realize other people are going to celebrate, and I accept it. I don't comment on it. I let the day go by. More and more people are coming to realize that perhaps Columbus is not a person to whom we should devote a "holy day." The same may be true eventually of Thanksgiving.

The problem with this holiday is that it has been completely dissociated from the truth of its beginnings. The day is now some kind of New Wave, free flowing day of thanks and eating. It doesn't really relate to history any more.

It's also a day where people are supposed to feel good about themselves and their lives. It's very hard to get people to give that up.

But the truth will out. And slowly, the truth of our country's past is becoming known, and over time, the history of Thanksgiving will also be recognized. Until then, if people want to eat turkey and feel grateful, I don't begrudge it. But for myself, I have to be true to what I know and to my ancestors. I let the day go by without pretending or celebrating.

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Chill OUT
Posted by: easybeartx on Nov 22, 2007 10:41 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dude, like, chill out.

"Surtout, pas de zele." - Talleyrand

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What a Bitter...
Posted by: apophenia_monkey on Nov 22, 2007 11:00 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...man. i can only hope his self-righteous attitude serves as a balm for the bleeding hole of insecurity in his jaundiced psyche.

his home and family must be epitomes of warmth and light and love...

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Robert, I Wish You A Happy Thanksgiving
Posted by: apophenia_monkey on Nov 22, 2007 11:01 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
nuff sed

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Happy Illegal Immigration Day to you all!
Posted by: hurricane hugo on Nov 22, 2007 11:29 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha...

plur

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Dialogues worth having
Posted by: CV on Nov 22, 2007 11:39 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I understand Mr. Jensen's quandary. I struggled philosophically with the concept of "thanksgiving day" since I was sufficiently sentient to understand the myth upon which the "celebration" is based. While I am grateful to have been lucky enough to be born in this country (while deploring its current course) instead of Saudia Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, Darfur, Iraq, etc., I recognize and deplore the numerous hypocrisies upon which our pridefulness as a nation is based. The plight of the native north american led me to vote for Indian casinos despite my distaste for gambling. I can do nothing to change the past, but I do what I can to effect a difference today. The true meaning of "atonement" is at-one-ment - coming together in love and that is the spirit in which I participate in gathering today with friends - almost all of whom are black (some part native american) and fully appreciate the irony of giving thanks in the country which participated in the enslavement of their ancestors. We gather to give thanks for our many blessings - but none of us forget those who have not been, and are not now, so blessed. As for the December holidays (I honor all beliefs which cause no harm), everyone who knows me understands my practice at that time - which is to direct any "gifts" to charities and refuse to participate in typical gift exchanges. Yet while raising my children, I gave them the tree, the decorations, the gifts (modest gifts) and as they were old enough, shared my philosophy about that holiday with them. And as adults, they follow their own paths, as Mr. Jensen follows his. May we all find a way to make things better now and tomorrow!

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5 Reasons We Should Celebrate Thanksgiving:
Posted by: aedwards on Nov 22, 2007 11:46 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1. Not enough happiness in the world. Celebrate for celebrations sake.

2. Family. Finally a sitdown dinner with the family. How often does that happen anymore?

3. Time and a half. My job pays me time and a half for working on holidays. I need the money.

4. Football. I don't even have to pay for cable to watch! Isn't that in the end what thanksgiving is all about?

5. Bitterness. Partying keeps us from turning into bitter, self-rightious, pricks who complain about everything.

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There is never gratitude in America as it is. Besides, do what most people do.
Posted by: maxpayne on Nov 22, 2007 12:24 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Call it "Turkey" Day because that's what it really ends up being anyway. Better to be honest and call it what it is instead of dress it all up with a "nice" name. This country was founded on and credited with violence or the following would not be happening.

1. Fighting resource wars for oil especially in IRAQ.

2. Banning harmless but helpful plants such as Cannabis that cause no deaths or health risks but in fact end up as cures compared to fast food, alcohol, tobacco, etc ...

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Celebrating First Americans' kindness to undocumented Europeans
Posted by: scribbler on Nov 22, 2007 12:46 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
How about celebrating Thanksgiving as a day to honor the First Americans who gave undocumented starving alien Europeans the knowledge to hunt and harvest the unique bounty of the New World... before we killed any First Americans who wouldn't also give us exclusive ownership of their land.

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AWWWWWWWW. WEEP WEEP WEEP
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Nov 22, 2007 12:47 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let's guilt caucasians more.
After all, those caucasians MUST have more $$$$ and other things we want to con them out of.

Besides all that, it MUST be their fault as, all this happened ONLY a loust damn 350 years ago.

Go tell it to your colon.

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» RE: AWWWWWWWW. WEEP WEEP WEEP Posted by: ALANHESTER
I respectfully disagree with the majority opinion.
Posted by: Nasty Jesus on Nov 22, 2007 1:21 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
First of all, a friendly reminder to everyone who chooses post comments on this forum:

"AlterNet's discussion forums are provided as a means to further the dialogue about pressing political and cultural issues. We seek to encourage intelligent, thoughtful and respectful conversation and debate in these forums, and we reserve the right to moderate as we see fit."


Now, in reply to Jensen's essay, which has aroused so much emotion: thank you, Professor.
Howard Zinn told us that "dissent is the highest form of patriotism." Unfortunately, principles are often forgotten when they become inconvenient, as in the case of Thanksgiving Holiday. Many of the comments sidestep the argument altogether by verbally attacking Jensen's essay as a "rant", "annoying", "boring", and other disrespectful language. This kind of "argument" lacks the validity necessary to make it intelligent or thoughtful. The fact that Jensen's essay is the headlining article on today's Alternet means that there seems to be enough support to make it a subject worthy of relevant discussion.

Now, as the little voices in your head go "but, but, but...look at all the people celebrating thanksgiving, that means no one wants to abolish it", I ask you to ponder history with all its glorious contradictions. First of all, this holiday designed to celebrate the plentiful harvest has not been invented by American history. All we did was change the meaning of it from a day rooted in pagan beliefs, to a day commemorating conquest. There are cultures who celebrate a similar day (take the German "Erntedankfest", celebrated in October, for example) whose meaning has not been distorted.

If we changed Thanksgiving to a day in October,on a Sunday after the full moon known as "harvest moon", and truly made it into a day celebrating the harvest of local produce (which, for all you lovers of frequent-flyer-mile food, is its original designation), we could retain the spirit of family, friends, and a loving spirit without having to constantly be reminded of our own hypocrisy.

Paradigm shifts do not occur over night. They are intangible shifts in public perception, fueled by sometimes incendiary discussion, and often marked by failure to accomplish anything other than sticking to your guns in the face of adversity. If changes on a larger scale couldn't happen because of the majority opinion, then women still wouldn't vote, segregation would persist, and I would not be sitting here exercising my freedom of speech. Change happens, as I speak; the choice we face is how to direct its energy. Should spend time upholding a tradition created to affirm the American ego of its manifest destiny? Or, should we channel this energy along positive and constructive channels? For example, for those of you attending a holiday feast with your loved ones, encourage a friendly discussion of the values surrounding this holiday. Take one hour out of the day to get together and write a letter to your representative; tell them you appreciate all the good things this holiday has to offer. Tell them that if we want to indeed offer ourselves as an example of democracy to the world, we must first show respect to the indigenous cultures we almost destroyed. Once again, other harvest celebrations are actually celebrated on a day that is equated with the harvest; how difficult would it be to follow suit?

And last, but not least: respect for the harvest shows itself in actions, not words. Buy local, if you can. Organic, if not local, and seasonal above all. Turkeys that have been reared in humane and ethical environments are available, instead of buying that hormone-laced, steroid-fed, conveyor belt bird from Sam's Club. Then again, vegetarian, vegan, or raw feasts take imagination, are nutritionally superior, and make cooking (or un-cooking) a community event.

Peace, and keep up the words .

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Thanks
Posted by: AintNanny on Nov 22, 2007 1:32 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I just did a survey of ten neighbors and NOT ONE gave thanks for the slaughter of indigenous peoples. Get a grip ...it's a holiday that allows us simple folk to take a moment and give thanks for the simple joys that abound in our lives. Take a deep breath Bob ...

PS ..my ancestors were Quakers ...do I get a pass?

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Foresight
Posted by: foresight on Nov 22, 2007 1:45 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just like the greeting with tobacco, the annual harvest feast was celebrated throughout the Ameericas long before Colombus arrived. I am Native American and find it ironic to refer to the Indians as heathen and then claim Thanksgiving as a family matter without any mention of God. We the heathens are monotheistic. Your God is our God because God is who God is and God is only different in man's mind. You can argue over the meaning of Thanksgiving all you want but we as Native People will continue to celebrate God and God's gifts and be thankful inspite of the genocide, broken treaties and promises. So Happy Thanksgiving and enjoy what God has gifted to you. By the way, God blessed Ameerica so I don't understand why everyone is always asking for God to bless America. After George Bush though, God will have to bless it again, WE HOPE.

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Thanksgiving Can Be Legitimately Celebrated, Even By the Left
Posted by: sofla100 on Nov 22, 2007 4:00 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The important thing to remember about Thanksgiving is that it is about the potential and promise of human beings towards peaceful relationships and about mutual understanding. Why? Yes, the indigenous Indian population was slaughtered, but that was SUBSEQUENT to the original mythological Thanksgiving event. This is important because it can be argued that the spirit of Thanksgiving can be legitimately celebrated as it was never celebrated to commemorate the slaughter of the Indians, that slaughter being another event coming later. As for things like slaughtering Turkeys, vegetarians can simply eat other foods. Lastly, in America today, we have few holidays and it is not often the stores are actually closed. However, there is a trend for stores to start being open on Thanksgiving. In other words, a trend to take away even Thanksgiving by making Americans work that day. Publicize and make it known what happened to the Indians and that it was wrong, but let's not take away one of the last remaining rituals that families in the USA actually have that can bring them together.

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Private v. Public action
Posted by: Cathyc on Nov 22, 2007 4:05 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Robert Jensen wrote:
The claim that through private action we can create our own reality is one of the key tenets of a predatory corporate capitalism that naturalizes unjust hierarchy, a part of the overall project of discouraging political struggle and encouraging us to retreat into a private realm where life is defined by consumption.

Mr. Jensen, it all depends on how one lives one's private life - which does not necessarily mean endorsing the psychotic hierarchical system that is deemed normal to MOST Americans!

In order to be a useful member of a social community - as opposed to a member of an anti-social society (e.g., America) one has to have SELF respect. Note, driving an SUV and/or living in a McMansion (or aspiring to have such things) is not a normal human social trait!

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» Ah, but... Posted by: Coleman
What DO Americans talk about over Thanksgiving Dinner?
Posted by: Cathyc on Nov 22, 2007 4:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm just curious?

Do they talk about the Native Americans? Who they?

Credit-Card debt?

Sub-Prime Mortgages?

Global Warming?

GWB, Chaney, Rice, Rikki Lake, Dr. Phil, Oprah??

Just curious...

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» We get it, Cathy... Posted by: mjabele
» Good for you! Posted by: Coleman
Experienced
Posted by: newshound on Nov 22, 2007 4:35 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, Thanksgiving could be transformed into a day of real atonement after recognizing that we were not alone in our destruction and genocide of the native americans. How, rededicate Thanksgiving to the eradication of genocide in our current world currently going on in Darfur. What have you done, anything?, to bring pressure on the government and the U. N. to do this. The best atonement is changing the society at large to better and more civilized practices. Recognizing that it happened is important, but actions today to prevent it continuing to happen are the best way to address it. Then we can celebrate a Thanksgiving that reflects efforts to improve society and encompasses love and caring for others. Everyone IS our family, if we belong to the family of man.

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Day of Mourning
Posted by: macdon1 on Nov 22, 2007 5:31 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Wampanoags now have a Day of Mourning instead of Thanksgiving. It is held in Plymouth MA every year and is a gathering of native people and their friends from all over the US and the world.

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» RE: Day of Mourning Posted by: ALANHESTER
gypseyjingle
Posted by: gypseyjingle on Nov 22, 2007 5:41 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
my daily doggerl is a sonnet that seems to fit with Mr. Jensen's excellent story.

Thanksgiving Wishes from Dick & Lynne

What’s a few dead Indians, with turkey on the plate?
Mama’s sweet bird stuffing in a sumptuous butter ball!
The Cowboys thrashed the Redskins forty-two to eight.
And storewide sales commencing at the Mall.

What’s a few dead Indians, we still enjoy the myth
and pump our history full of Yankee pride
we celebrate their dignity with lovely greeting cards
pretending to say “thanks”, with no giving implied.

What’s a few dead Indians, (pass the Rolaids, please)
I can’t believe we’ve gobbled everything in sight
Thank god the chinks still fill the stores, with everything we want
I’d hate to disappoint the tykes, come the holy night.

What’s a few dead Indians, Our destiny was manifest.
That’s the spirit of democracy and what makes the US BEST!

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Let's all become flagellants
Posted by: timemachinist on Nov 22, 2007 6:18 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From the article: "Thanksgiving Day should be turned into a National Day of Atonement to acknowledge the genocide of America's indigenous peoples."

I agree. I think we should turn it into a national day of fasting and sexual abstinence. The new ritual replacing Turkey dinner should be to go out in the cold wearing only a cheesecloth sheet, rehearsing the entire Psalter of 50 different Cortez the Killer hymns, accompanying each psalm with a hundred lash-strokes to the back.

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I'm sorry
Posted by: argyle on Nov 22, 2007 5:56 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
but I find the equating of the tragic deaths of millions of Native Americans and the deliberate genocide conducted by Nazi Germany highly offensive and highly dubious.

First, the horrific destruction of the Native American peoples was a process involving hundreds of years and many different authorities. Nazi Germany conducted an organized scheduled and merciless assembly line like murder machine.

Second, the most likely cause for the destruction of the first civilization on this continent was smallpox, which was unknown in the new world before that bastard Cortez got here. Again, Nazi Germany conducted an organized scheduled and merciless assembly line like murder machine.

The "Pilgrims" were hardly saints, and many were hard men who did vicious things. However, to compare them to the Nazi's is to misunderstand the difference between tragedy and murder.

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» RE: I'm sorry Posted by: nellie blogger
» RE: I'm sorry Posted by: xtiml
I guess I don't believe in "historical responsibility"...
Posted by: mjabele on Nov 22, 2007 6:49 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Perhaps some of this has to do with my upbringing as the child of German immigrants. I endured a lot of razzing as a child in consequence - "Nazi", "Kraut", etc. - which left me mostly confused and resentful, without initially provoking any deeper insights. Ironically, of my two German grandfathers, one belonged to the Nazi party and joined the Bundeswehr, while the other, a prominent town official, refused to join and was at one point threatened with deportation to a concentration camp. Even my "genetic roots", so to speak, were historically confused. Did the actions of my "good" grandfather cancel out the ones of my "bad" one? Or did I inherit two compartments within my psyche, one "good", one "bad"?

I guess as a result of mulling over these issues for several years, I simply no longer believe in the concept that those of us living now bear any sort of personal responsibility for the actions of our ancestors, beyond acknowledging what was done in the past. Taking steps to rectify whatever inequalities and/or injustices resulting from those actions might still persist in the present shouldn't in my view be construed as "reparation" or "taking responsibility" for the actions of long-dead ancestors, but rather as the simple expression of taking responsibility to alleviate others' hardship NOW, wherever we might find it during our present lives - the only period of time we can really be asked to take any personal responsibility for, in my opinion.

It seems to me the primary reason to assist Native Americans to attain a better quality of life has to do with the simple fact that they're our fellow human beings, in other words - not because dead people whose genes some of us might happen to share caused their present predicament centuries ago. It should be our desire to correct inequalities and injustices WHEREver and WHENever we see them - not just as a consequence of some sort of "guilty association", particularly when defined by "hereditary" criteria alone.

Given my own inability to feel "responsibilified", if you will, for the actions of one of my two grandfathers, I just don't see how Mr. Jensen's proposal to eliminate Thanksgiving accomplishes any of the above goals. Rather than provoking reflection, I suspect it would sow confusion, anger, and divisiveness among people like me who, on balance, have come to the conclusion that all of us must have ancestors who did "bad things" as well as others who did "good things", and consequently feel an inability to atone, if you will, for all of the unknown specific acts all our ancestors might have undertaken. We can only be responsible for the present, in other words - but in that sense, we certainly can, and probably should be held responsible for ignoring injustice where we know it to be present.

All the more reason to extend a hand to Native Americans, and all other fellow human beings whose lot needs to be improved, whether our ancestors had something to do with their present predicament or not.

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» Hmmm... Posted by: mjabele
» I Rarely Say This, But... Posted by: grumble-bum
Just Take The Day Off And Eat While You Still Can
Posted by: InsertNameHere on Nov 22, 2007 6:58 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Holidays are a chance to spend some time with family and enjoy a good meal. The rest of it is just idealized history. Who sits around on Thanksgiving thinking reverently of those pilgrims? Just be happy if you can still sit around with people and enjoy a good meal. Take advantage the day. The world is a shit-hole most of the time so take it while you can. Most National Holidays are bullshit anyway.

And don't get too feisty about days of atonement and recognition of genocide, AIPAC tends to get snippy about people muscling in on their gig.

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Give Thanks for Genocide. We do daily
Posted by: Betsy L. Angert on Nov 22, 2007 7:23 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dear Robert Jensen . . .

I have let the parade pass me by for at least a decade. I enjoy my company or the companionship of those that understand as I do,;Thanksgiving as a holiday is a myth and a marketing ploy.

Last year, I penned my thoughts, Give Thanks for Genocide. Thanksgiving, National Day of Mourning.

Hours ago I decided to inscribe my further thoughts on the topic. I feel we cannot attone for what we continue to do. As a country, we are committed to ethic cleansing. The Patriot Act documents our xenophobia, subtlety. The way we treat and speak of immigrants is overtly racist. Speak to Progressives of immigration and watch the words of bigotry fly.

I have yet to finish, the treatise I began this afternoon. Tonight I ate with Indians, from India. We had no turkey, no ham. The meal was a vegan delight, as all my entrees are. For me, killing fowl or a person identified as foe is genocide. I will not engage in either. I mourn our lack of care and empathy for our fellow man.

Betsy L. Angert
BeThink.org

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How About "A Day of Atonement" for the American Worker
Posted by: sofla100 on Nov 22, 2007 8:11 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dear Robert Jensen:

I get two FU#K$N weeks off work a year and a couple holidays. You want to take those holidays away from me now also? Day of Atonement huhh, how about a day of atonement for what the corporate elite has done to American workers. Shipped all of the USA's good jobs overseas. Sure, America still has lots of workers, like hotel clerks and cruise ship reservations agents. All of them for a whopping $8.25 an hour. The Indians were the group screwed with 100 years ago, we, the American worker are the group screwed with today. Focus your argument on what is happening now. And, please don't give the powers that be the idea to take even more things away from us!

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How illogical!
Posted by: photon's feather on Nov 22, 2007 8:19 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One can only atone for one's own misbehavior. To want to atone for the actions of others is absurd.

Further, many Americans had no ancestors in this country during the time period in question; and many have ancestors who were here, but had no direct with any such actions.

Should we also have days of atonement for what some of our ancestors may have done in their ancestral lands? (I wonder whether one of my great-great-[etc] grandfathers was in on wiping out the Picts... or perhaps one was a Pict.)

Native Americans - whom I count among friends and family - were not the only ones to have been victimized. Nor were all the victims necessarily non-white, nor all the victimizers necessarily white. (For example, there were both Native American and black slave-holders.)

I'm sick to death of eternal victimhood. I no more expect to be compensated for the bad - even brutal - treatment suffered by some of my forebears than I am willing to pay for what might have been done by any of them. I did not share the suffering of the former, nor was I an accomplice in any actions of the latter. (Neither am I a beneficiary: there was no wealth attained by my forebears through any means, and nothing handed down to me.)

Teach everything in history classes, without editing or white-washing, but leave out the guilt concerning things so long past. Nobody alive today earned it, and there are no victims left to be compensated.

There are plenty of Americans alive today who are currently being victimized - by the government, large corporations, the banks, our crooked and incompetent 'health care' system, etc. These are people who could benefit from Americans taking action now. (And their victimizers are alive and subject to being held to account.)

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Amen
Posted by: scorpiokc on Nov 22, 2007 8:24 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't care if the rant is repetitive, it's worth repeating ... year after friggin' Bush year.

http://www.currenteventswatch.com

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Amen
Posted by: scorpiokc on Nov 22, 2007 8:28 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't care if the rant is repetitive, it's worth repeating, year after year.

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Well...
Posted by: Logic's Edge on Nov 22, 2007 8:33 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
my honest suggestion to the author is to stop looking for ways to feel miserable and start looking for ways to make a positive contribution to society.

I see nothing wrong with taking one day of the year, getting together with family and being thankful for what we have. And enjoying a roasted turkey while we do it.

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» RE: Well... Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» &&&! Posted by: grumble-bum
My god
Posted by: COhippie on Nov 22, 2007 9:28 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Does this guy ever give us a chance to just live in peace? Thanksgiving is my favorite holiday. No one in my family even gives a thought to the historical meaning. And I'm an HISTORIAN. It's just a day to get together and enjoy family that isn't tainted by the materialism of Christmas.

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Was going to post but why? It's just a waste of my time and yours!
Posted by: common intelligence on Nov 22, 2007 10:42 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Stupid writer and readers.
Have a nice bit of bird and mashed Potatoes and gravy with some cranberry sauce and take a friggin nap for gods sake!

The indians lost and now we are.
'Nough said!

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In response to G.W. and thanks for democracy
Posted by: zorro on Nov 22, 2007 10:54 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In summation, Thanksgiving, according to G.W. is a clebration to give thanks for our democracy! The irony! Our democracy has been usurped by corporate-tocracy--nep-fascism. There are no parties--only an inner party made up of Repugnants and demi-creeps. Therefore, we should thanksgiving--as we have no democracy and should give thanks for torture, illegal genocidal wars, (today and in the last fifty years) crimes against humanity and the new-reich in Washington. And all of this under God. Americans are delusional. Kucinich is probably not in the inner party--so vote kucinich and upset the new world order. (notice the similar initials--could it be this has been planned--G.W. BUsh will be our first dictator of America--the father of our country?)
P.s. Having said all that--I do enjoy th emeal and friends, but it is a huge hassle at the same time. And now my family has gone hillbilly and dep fry the turkey which disrupts my slavating glands and is one more reason not to join them. Family is a huge bore anyway--and all idiotic Bush supporters and flag wavers. I make my own reasons to celebrate a humanitarian, humanistic life everyday--I dont need capitalism, an ancient/medieval God, fascism, genocide, hillbilly war-mongers or football--yawn.

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Forgive my spelling in last--didn't proof. No comment
Posted by: zorro on Nov 22, 2007 10:57 PM   
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no comment

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THANKSGIVING AND FAMILY VALUES RISE ABOVE...
Posted by: freedomschild on Nov 22, 2007 11:38 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
While there is fusion within my heart and mind with your comments, this day presents me and those family members we are lucky to corral for a few hours, with an opportunity growing more and more scarce. Therein lies the rub. This issue of the indigenous people of North America is one I've struggled with since my consciousness began awakening; and I cannot now retreat. I do feel that we humans are here for such a short time on this disrespected planet and while it appears that these travails of social, economic and confounded pathfinders are making no head-way...there does sprout, here and there, the surge of enlightened Beings who are capable of rallying unity and perseverance, a reason to keep the good fight alive, thriving and stretching beyond our little thinking. Thanks for your comments. Sometimes I feel like I am the only person who thinks along these lines! Good to know there are others out there who grapple with what cannot be compromised. I am...
Thanking You. ~fc~

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Learn more about original Thanksgiving
Posted by: Flashgordon123 on Nov 23, 2007 5:15 AM   
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What a good article and set of discussions! I just wanted to chime in that if anyone is interested in learning more about the original Thanksgiving from a Native perspective, they should check out A Cultural History of the Native Peoples of Southern New England. It has a lot of good information on the first Thanksgiving and the relationship between the Natives and the pilgrims.

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Uh, excuse me...
Posted by: jstepp590 on Nov 23, 2007 6:48 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You need to get your facts straight. Regardless of what we learned in school and while it may tickle the Eurocentrist fancy that a few hundred Europeans using metal armor and swords wiped out some 100 million native americans, it just isn't true.

Our ancestors didn't wipe out the natives, the eurasian diseases did. Even Cortez wrote in his journals how the cities in S. America we depopulated by small pox. With no prior exposure to the epidemics the Europeans brought with them, they were what is known as a "virgin field", meaning they had no immunities at all. Small pox alone caused over 95% casualties, and the common cold, flus and measles were just about as bad. It was said that even the survivors of the diseases died because they were too weak to make it to water or feed themselves.

So, while it may make us feel superior or guilty at least let the blame rest where it truly belongs. Not with the brightest or smartest of the human race but with our age old nemisis, disease.

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carol a
Posted by: carol a. on Nov 23, 2007 7:47 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why the harsh reactions?

An ethicist is a rare animal in these times. Whether one agrees or disagrees with Jensen's conclusions, I think decisions and actions based on a carefully examined, personal ethical system are never easy, but worthy of respect. Half-way measures and casual compromises probably have no place in this sort of process. Ethics as a way of life is not for the faint-hearted.

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great articles!
Posted by: toddw on Nov 23, 2007 9:12 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just wanted to say thanks for your series of articles about Thanksgiving and send you a copy of my blog post from yesterday. I quoted your Thanksgiving article from 2005 and after I sent it out a friend sent me a link to your 2007 article. Great stuff- we seem to be on the same page about how difficult it can be to "preach to the choir" at times.

I'm convinced that unplugging from Thanksgiving and other holidays is key to transforming ourselves and how we think about social change. Until we stop celebrating what we "really don't believe in" it's hard to have a real sense of how much these rituals serve to maintain our outlook and realities.

Anyway thanks for the articles and being another soul who just wasn't willing to live with the contradictions days like Thanksgiving bring to the surface.

Here's the link to my blog post yesterday-

http://everyonesbackyard.blogspot.com/

Have a good one-

Todd

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Mister
Posted by: Spock on Nov 23, 2007 9:19 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Frankly, I've always thought of ALL holidays not only as a serious pain in the ass, but as the bourgeosie flight from their "lives of quiet desperation." Most citizens of this country seem to be a continual flight from reality and their own thoughts. More, their propagandist-altered minds religiously made up about everything, they are bored to deperation (once you've decided you know everything about everything that's important to you, there's really no reason to think, is there?), and frantic to have someone else provide them entertainment. There own minds are useless for the purpose. For me, holidays always get in the way of the fun I'm already having - thinking and doing the millions of things I've already thought of doing. The way to give thanks is do something useful (that's USEFUL) to god - i.e. your fellow man.

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Interesting...
Posted by: chugach3Dguy on Nov 23, 2007 10:13 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So, since this bothers you to such a great extent, I take it you'll pack your things and leave the country?

Put your money where your mouth is. Like so many others, it's much easier to whine and gripe about things that happened generations ago and do a lot of finger wagging than it is to stand up for your convictions and just leave. Yes, this country of ours has it's problems and skeletons in the closet. Just like every other country ON THE PLANET.

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» Not Exactly How I Read It... Posted by: grumble-bum
MR JENSEN......
Posted by: ALANHESTER on Nov 23, 2007 10:13 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A large number of the postings on this topic say more about the pathetic nature of compassion and understanding in this country. It is very easy to see why so many people outside of the US hate us.

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??BLACK FRIDAY OR DUPED???
Posted by: flymulla on Nov 23, 2007 10:38 AM   
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Sir
??BLACK FRIDAY OR DUPED???
This is exactly as we have in Mecca when the pilgrims come to Saudi Arabia for the pilgrimage. The one month before, that is now in 2007(there is a gap of 11 odd days between the lunar and our calendar moth). The Hajj is one time in life, a must, for the Muslims .What happens at his time in Saudi cities, is the markets are flooded with all types of commodities, perfumes, bags, watches, electronic, name it, it is here for sale. More the reason of the fake goods entering as most of the pilgrims may never come again. Therefore, the vendors try to sell all types of fake, broken, off the usual ISO or any standards at a throw away price.
The bag is so attractive that in spite of running short of cash, you end up borrowing cash, only to find at times that you were tricked into buying fake perfume or the very fragile belt of the wrist watch or rings that looks gold. There are some honest shopkeepers to tell you that the gods are fake and cheap. They will tell you what is originals and what is the quick sale and no warranty or guarantee.
I thank you
Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD
P.O.Box 6044
Dar-Es-Salaam
Tanzania
East Africa

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Liam
Posted by: Liam on Nov 23, 2007 11:36 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Lo the poor guilt ridden Liberals - the same people who peach 300,000 primarily white men did not die in the Civil War to destroy slavery (evil whites would never do such a thing). I spent Thanksgiving Day with my family including my 3 beautiful grandchildren. During a great dinner we used our freedom of speech to curse the Bush Crime Family and give our "thanks" that he will be almost gone at this time next year. Can't we be thankful for what is good in our lives today instead of living 100 years in the past. Guilt ridden Liberals are no fun anyway - just as well they stay away from others on all holidays!

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wyatt
Posted by: wyatt on Nov 23, 2007 12:38 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
My friend,
from another point of view, Thanks giving is the only "indigenous people's holiday" America celebrates and we both rage at and enjoy the irony; it's like calling ourselves indians and enjoying the fact that the Southern European ancestors were so very lost.
The Plymouth indians gave the Pilgrims a holiday, and if you think about it, a quite different way of praying: giving thanks, not asking for.
Just leave Thanksgiving alone it already reaches thinking people (like yourself), but consider changing another holiday to a day of atonement — since we've fallen so short of Jesus' teaching, perhaps Christmas or Easter?
Wyatt

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xtiml
Posted by: xtiml on Nov 23, 2007 8:49 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am not going to atone for soemyhing I had no part of, that is false guiltIf any one cares to know the trail of tears of the native americans since the europeans came,then they can read about it.any nation with any good sense would have a week of thanksgiving. america does not have to link the thanksgiving day to the pilgrims and indians.as it brings up sorrowful memories of indians saving the white mens asses then given blankets of small pox, swine ran through their corn gardens, and beligerance, and cunning taking advantage of the ignorance to devious mind set of the yuropeans.we broke every treaty we made with them.

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SV1
Posted by: SV1 on Nov 24, 2007 1:33 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It seems like part of this issue is the struggle between having a positive, healthy small circle (family/friends) and a positive, healthy large circle (country/society). The thing is, it is possible to have both and to have both be working together, and I appreciate Mr. Jensen for trying to create that, and for being honest about his struggle.

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Way too nutty
Posted by: Staggo on Nov 24, 2007 6:30 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You've gone off the deep end on this one. If this crap constitutes what Progressives view as priorities, then I don't wonder that most of America dislikes us. Let's quit the carping. Thanksgiving Day ain't going anywhere, and I'm neither responsible for, nor willing to hang my head because of, past transgressions, as egregious as they were. Now, back to Bush/Cheney. . . .

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YES!...but wrong Holiday
Posted by: Ernie Yams, Professional Babysitter on Nov 24, 2007 9:24 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Interesting, true, but this is the wrong holiday to focus on. Thanksgiving has already been established as a holiday for people of all backgrounds to celebrate the abundance that so many of us enjoy in America, deserved or not. The real holiday to focus upon is Columbus Day. Columbus Day is a day that celebrates genocide. This day should be, perhaps, Native American Day, a day of mourning, a day on which we celebrate the spiritual founders of the land we live upon. I have no problem with Thanksgiving being a national day of secular thanks for that which the Earth brings. Of course, if we really want to delve into this, every day should be a day on which we thank the Earth, and every day should be a day on which we mourn the loss of those we have wronged. But that doesn't facillitate headlines on the internet, does it? Your heart is in the right place. Thank you for making the point that we should celebrate love and eradicate hate, but please do not use such important ideas to make yourself feel superior. You're obviously doing so here.

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Why does Alternet keep publishing this guy?
Posted by: johnclark on Nov 25, 2007 2:17 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Over educated, know nothing liberal Robert Jensen at it again.

Thanksgiving isn't about Plimoth rock for most of us. It is a 4 day holiday to spend with our families.

The story of European colonization of Turtle Island is so large that even many of the "experts" disagree (kinda' like porn, ha?).

Jensen diatribes give ammo to our real enemies to keep working folks from listening to what really matters. It's like, I just sent links to some great pieces on NCLB by Sean Gonsalves to my PTO list, now they'll see this piece instead and my credibility's destroyed.

Anyhow, I agree with the Columbus day comment above. In 1992, we were all wearing "Columbus didn't discover America, he invaded it" tee shirts and educating the public. It was common in those days to trade Columbus day for the day after (you guessed it) Thanksgiving. And the difference between what I learned in school about the conquest and what my kids are learning today is great. American Indian writers are in my kids school books! Of course, lots more needs to be done. The fact that liberals like Jensen can have a soapbox to replace one myth of American Indians with another just shows how much needs to be done.

For my part, I tell my friends to read books like 1491 and Indian writers like Sherman Alexie. If one wants pre-Columbian history, listen to story tellers, go to Indian museums, and read Indian writers. The one thing liberals (and conservaives) never understand is that people are people -- no matter what color, what faith ..., we are all the same. Learn that lesson, and we can all work together.

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Boring
Posted by: muggs131 on Nov 25, 2007 7:30 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Heard this already in college. Also considering Ward Churchill's ethical shortcomings like plagiarism and just plain making stuff up, is he really a good source?

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An Intelligent Proposal to Enact an Absolute Waste of Time
Posted by: sixshooter on Nov 25, 2007 8:41 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You cannot see the possibility of liberals disagreeing with you? This article is perfect ivory tower liberalism, just as out of touch as a Pat Robertson screed against homosexuals and abortion. You write intelligently and obviously think deeply, but still expend words and energy tackling what is an ancillary issue at best.

Let's face it, terrible acts have been committed throughout history, and there would be 365 days of atonement and mourning if we acknowledged them all. It's a beautiful idea to think of our "white-supremacist, patriarchal" rulers handing the land back to the Native Americans, but that is unlikely to happen while our grandchildren are alive.

Instead of spitting out theories about how enjoying fellowship with those we love instead of pounding the streets in protest is selfish and consumerist - thereby giving those of us who enjoy Thanksgiving celebrations no credit for intelligence - focus on the modern results of our ancestors' barbarism: poverty, inequality, anomie. Better yet, save the juice bar rhetoric and enjoy some time with your family.

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What Tradition are we Trying to Return To?
Posted by: redroadtraveler on Nov 27, 2007 6:17 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You do not seem to know the tradition we should be trying to return to. I offer you these words, so that you may know. It is too long to fit in one comment, so read the second comment to continue.


This prayer is a gift from the Haudenosaunee People (The Iroquois Nation) for you to remember perhaps at your Thanksgiving table - and especially with children. The real observance of the first Thanksgivings by first peoples has been all but forgotten by American culture. It is time to remember.




Let us greet the world in Thanksgiving as if we were sharing one mind, one heart, and one body. Today we have gathered and come from many different places. We have arrived safely at this place to share with each other our gifts from the Creator. So we bring our minds together as one in Thanksgiving and Greetings to one another.

We now turn our thoughts to Earth Mother. She continues to care for us and has not forgotten her instructions from the beginning of time. Now we bring our minds together in Thanksgiving for the Earth.

Now as one mind we turn our thoughts to the Waters of the Earth for they too have not forgotten their instructions from the Creator of Life. The Waters continue to flow beneath the ground, in little streams and in rivers, in lakes and in wetlands, and in the great seas. They quench our thirst and help keep us clean so we can fulfill our duty to Creation. We now bring our minds together in Thanksgiving to all the Waters of the Earth.

We now address all the Beings both seen and unseen that dwell in the Water for they too have not forgotten their original instructions from the Creator of Life to provide for us in many ways. With one mind we send our Thanksgiving and Greetings to all the Nations who dwell in the Waters.

Now we direct our thoughts to the many kinds of plants that live upon the Earth- for they too have not forgotten their original instructions. Many members of this Nation sustain those who walk upon this Earth, and many others who continue to fulfill their duties to take away the sickness of the human family and elevate human consciousness. With one mind we send our thoughts and Thanksgiving to the Plant Nations.

With one mind we now think of our relations in the many Insect Nations. Like the other members of the natural world, they too have not forgotten their original instructions to fulfill their obligation to Continued Creation. With one mind we send our thoughts and Thanksgiving to all the members of the Insect Nations.

We now gather our minds together and send Greetings and Thanksgiving to all the Animal Life in the world, for they continue to instruct and teach us even today. It is said that the Creator knew that Humans would take too much for granted if they were given all the wisdom, so instead the Creator gave a little piece of wisdom of how to live on the Earth to the different animals. We are happy that many still walk with us on our continuing journey. With one mind we send Thanksgiving to all the Animal Life in the world.

With one mind we now think of the Trees. According to their original instructions the Trees still give us shelter, warmth, food, and make the environment a suitable place to dwell. The trees remind us of the beauty and power in the natural world. With one mind we send our Thanksgiving to all the members of the Tree Nation.

We now bring our minds together and send our Greetings of Thanksgiving to the Birds. At the beginning of time the Birds were given a special duty to perform. The Creator gave the Birds instructions to each find a special place to live in the world and they should learn the song of that place. During the day, our minds are lifted by the songs of the Bird Nations. With one mind we send our Thanksgiving to the Birds of the world.

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What Tradition to Return To, Part II
Posted by: redroadtraveler on Nov 27, 2007 6:19 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We are thankful to the Four Winds who continue to blow and cleanse the air according to their original instructions. As we listen to the Winds it is as if we are hearing the Creator's breath, clearing our minds as it blows through the trees. With one mind we send our Thanksgiving to the Four Winds.



We now turn our attention to the Thunderbeings. For they too have not forgotten their original instructions and welcome the Spring with their loud voice. Along with the lightning, they carry the waters of the spring on their backs. It is also said that the Thunderbeings were given the job to hold down the beings beneath the Earth which would prevent life from continuing. With one mind we send our Thanksgiving and Greetings to the Thunderbeings.



Our minds are as one as we send our thoughts to our oldest brother the Sun. Each day the Sun continues his instructions from the Creator of Life, bringing the light of day, the energy source of all life on Earth. With one mind we send our Thanksgiving to our oldest brother the Sun.



We now gather our minds together and give thanks to our oldest Grandmother the Moon. She holds hands with all the women of the world and binds all of the female cycles and rhythms of the Waters so we may continue to carry out our obligation to Creation. With one mind we send our Thanksgiving and Greetings to Grandmother Moon.



With one mind we send our thoughts to the Star Nation who continue to light our way during times of darkness to guide us home, and hold the secrets of many forgotten stories. Even though many of the stories are no longer in our minds, it is said it is enough to be thankful to the Stars and perhaps one day we would learn these stories again.

With one mind we send our Thanksgiving and Greetings to the Star Nation.



With our minds as one we think of the Four Spirit Beings who live in the Four Directions. At the beginning of time when the Creator first made the Human Family, it was seen that they very quickly got themselves into trouble. The Creator knew that they needed extra help and so created the Four Spirit Beings to remove the obstacles from our paths and guide us with our feelings. And now we gather our minds together as one and send our special Thanksgiving to the Four Spirit Beings.



Now we have arrived in a very special place where dwells the Great Spirit, the Creator of the Universe. As one mind we turn our thoughts to the Creator, for without the Creator we would not be able to walk on the Earth fulfilling our original instructions.



Everything we need is provided for us and all we have to remember is to give thanks. With one mind we send our Thanksgiving and Greetings to the Creator.



We have now become like one being. We send our Prayers and special Thanksgiving Greetings to all the unborn children of the future generations. We send our thoughts to the Elders and the Children for they give us guidance and purpose to live in a good way. We are thankful to all the Enlightened Teachers who have come to help us throughout the ages. We send our thoughts to the many different beings we may have missed during our Thanksgiving. With one mind we send Thanksgiving and Greetings to all of the Nations of the World.

Now Our Minds Are One.

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This is so funny!
Posted by: Alli on Nov 28, 2007 5:34 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Articles like this crack me up.

How will it help the people massacred hundreds of years ago to throw a guilt trip on people today who celebrate Thanksgiving? If we all stop celebrating Thanksgiving, will it help impoverished Native Americans living on reservations?

I beleive the author of this article is a victim of selective history, just like the rest of us are. Yes, treatment of Native Americans by Europeans was brutal. It isn't something to be proud of, and it certainly isn't something unique in the history of the world. You can sit back and judge the actions of our ancestors by today's standards, or you can extend just a bit of effort to try to understand their actions in the context of the time during which they lived. Imperialism and domination isn't a European trait. Every country, every culture, all over the world, did the same thing. The Europeans just happened to be the first people to develop the means to do it better than anyone else.

Before Europeans arrived here, Native Americans went to war with each other. They enslaved each other. Their popluation included, I'm sure, good people and bad people. The author of this article seems to be in love with "the myth of the noble savage." Let's say two different tribes were at war. Along come some Europeans who want to defeat one tribe. Who do you think helped them accomplish this task? Native Americans! There's a reason why the French and Indian War is called the French and Indian War. As someone who's heritage includes Native American ancestry, I am fully capable of feeling outraged at the way our country was founded. I am also fully capable of understanding that the world worked like that back then, as unsavory as it is to many of us now.

Please, before anyone else buys into this conspiracy against Thanksgiving, educate yourself about world history. It will make you less likely to condemn early Americans.

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» RE: This is so funny! Posted by: hooch