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Does Porn Make the Man?

By Robert Jensen, South End Press. Posted November 17, 2007.


Most men have, at some point, feared not being masculine enough, especially in the bedroom. Pornography speaks to that fear.

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The following is an excerpt from Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity, by Robert Jensen.

King of the Hill

The object of the children's game King of the Hill is to be the one who remains on top of the hill (or, if not an actual hill, a large pile of anything or the center of any designated area). To do that, one has to repel those who challenge the king's supremacy. The king has to push away all the other kids who charge the hill. That can be done in a friendly spirit with an understanding that a minimal amount of force will be used by all, or it can be violent and vicious, with both the king and the challengers allowed to use any means necessary. Games that start with such a friendly understanding can often turn violent and vicious. This scenario is also used in some video games, in which a player tries to control a specific area for a predetermined amount of time.

In my experience, both male and female children can, and did, play King of the Hill, but it was overwhelmingly a game of male children. It's one of the games that train male children to be men. No matter who is playing, it is a game of masculinity. King of the Hill reveals one essential characteristic of the dominant conception of masculinity: No one is ever safe, and everyone loses something.

Most obviously, this King-of-the-Hill masculinity is dangerous for women. It leads men to seek to control "their" women and define their own pleasure in that control, which leads to epidemic levels of rape and battery. But this view of masculinity is toxic for men as well.

One thing is immediately obvious about King-of-the-Hill masculinity: Not everyone can win. In fact, by definition in this conception of masculinity, there's only one real man at any given moment. In a system based on hierarchy, by definition there can be only one person at the top of the hierarchy. There's only one King of the Hill.

In this conception of masculinity, men are in constant struggle with each other for dominance. Every other man must in some way be subordinated to the king, but even the king can't feel too comfortable -- he has to be nervous about who is coming up that hill to get him. This isn't just a game, of course. A friend who once worked on Wall Street, one of the preeminent sites of masculine competition in the business world, described coming to work as like "walking into a knife fight when all the good spots along the wall were taken." Every day you faced the possibility of getting killed -- figuratively, in business terms -- and there was no spot you could stand where your back was covered. This is masculinity lived as endless competition and threat. Whatever the benefits of it, whatever power it gives one over others, it's also exhausting and, in the end, unfulfilling.

No one man created this system. Perhaps no man, if given a real choice, would choose it. But we live our lives in that system, and it deforms men, narrowing our emotional range and depth, and limiting our capacity to experience the rich connections with others -- not just with women and children, but with other men -- which require vulnerability but make life meaningful. The Man Who Would Be King is the Man Who Is Broken and Alone.

That toxic masculinity hurts men doesn't mean it's equally dangerous for men and women. As feminists have long pointed out, there's a big difference between women dealing with the constant threat of being raped, beaten, and killed by the men in their lives, and men not being able to cry. But we can see that the short-term material gains that men get in patriarchy -- the name for this system of male dominance -- are not adequate compensation for what we men give up in the long haul, which is to surrender part of our humanity to the project of dominance.

This doesn't mean, of course, that in this world all men have it easy. Other systems of dominance and oppression -- white supremacy, heterosexism, predatory corporate capitalism -- mean that non-white men, gay men, poor and working-class men suffer in various ways. A feminist analysis doesn't preclude us from understanding those problems but in fact helps us see them more clearly.


What feminism is and isn't to me

Each fall in my seminar class for first-year students at the University of Texas, I lead a discussion about gender politics that will sound familiar to many teachers. I ask the students about their opinions about various gender issues, such as equal pay, sexual harassment, men's violence, and gender roles. Most of the women and some of the men express views that would be called feminist. But when I ask how many identify as feminists, out of the 15 students in any semester, no more than three (always women) have ever claimed the label. When I ask why, the typical answers are not about the political positions of feminism but the perception that feminism is weird and that weird people are feminists.

This pattern is no doubt connected to the assault on feminism in the mainstream culture, captured most succinctly in the phrase "femi-nazi" made popular by right-wing radio host Rush Limbaugh. One response to this by some feminists has been to find a least-common-denominator definition of the term, to reassure both men and women that feminism doesn't really aim to undermine established gender norms and isn't threatening to men. I believe that to be the wrong strategy. If feminism is to make a meaningful difference in the sex/gender crisis we face, and contribute to a broader social change so desperately needed, I believe it must be clear in its challenge to the existing order -- and that inevitably will be threatening to many men, at least at first. Feminism, then, should get more radical than ever.

In general, the term "radical" conjures up images of extremes, of danger, of people eager to tear things down. But radical has another meaning -- from the Latin, for root. Radical solutions are the ones that get to the root of the problem. When the systems in which we live are in crisis, the most honest confrontations with those systems have to be radical. At first glance, that honesty will seem frightening. Looking deeper, it is the radical ideas that offer hope, a way out of the crisis.

Because these ideas are denigrated in the dominant culture, it's important to define them. By feminist, I mean an analysis of the ways in which women are oppressed as a class in this society -- the ways in which men as a class hold more power, and how those differences in power systematically disadvantage women in the public and private spheres. Gender oppression plays out in different ways depending on social location, which makes it crucial to understand men's oppression of women in connection with other systems of oppression -- heterosexism, racism, class privilege, and histories of colonial and postcolonial domination.

By radical feminist, I mean the analysis of the ways that in this patriarchal system in which we live, one of the key sites of this oppression -- one key method of domination -- is sexuality. Two of the most well-known women who articulated a radical feminist view have been central to the feminist critique of pornography -- the writer Andrea Dworkin and Catharine MacKinnon, a lawyer and law professor. The feminist philosophy and politics that have shaped my thinking are most clearly articulated by those two and others with similar views.

What I also learned from this radical feminism is not just a way of critiquing men's domination of women but a broader approach to understanding systems of power and oppression. Feminism is not the only way into a broader critique of the many types of oppression, of course, but it is one important way, and was for me the first route into such a framework. My real political education started on the issue of gender and from there moved to issues of racial and economic injustice, the imperialist wars that flow out of that injustice, and the ecological crisis. Each system of power and oppression is unique in its own way, but there are certain features in common. Here's my summary:

How do we explain the fact that most people's stated philosophical and theological systems are rooted in concepts of justice, equality, and the inherent dignity of all people, yet we allow violence, exploitation, and oppression to flourish? Only a small percentage of people in any given society are truly sociopaths, engaging in cruel and oppressive behavior openly and with relish. Feminism helped me understand the complex process, which tends to work like this:

  • The systems and structures in which we live are hierarchical.
  • Hierarchical systems and structures deliver to those in the dominant class certain privileges, pleasures, and material benefits.
  • People are typically hesitant to give up such privileges, pleasures, and benefits.
  • But, those benefits clearly come at the expense of those in the subordinated class.
  • Given the widespread acceptance of basic notions of equality and human rights, the existence of hierarchy has to be justified in some way other than crass self-interest.
  • One of the most persuasive arguments for systems of domination and subordination is that they are "natural."


So, oppressive systems work hard to make it appear that the hierarchy -- and the disparity in power and resources that flow from hierarchy -- is natural and, therefore, beyond modification. If men are naturally smarter and stronger than women, then patriarchy is inevitable and justifiable. If white people are naturally smarter and more virtuous than people of color, then white supremacy is inevitable and justifiable. If rich people are naturally smarter and harder working than poor people, then economic injustice is inevitable and justifiable. And, if human beings have special status in the universe, justified either on theological or biological grounds, then humans' right to extract from the rest of Creation whatever they like is inevitable and justifiable.

For unjust hierarchies, and the illegitimate authority that is exercised in them, maintaining their own naturalness is essential. Not surprisingly, people in the dominant class exercising the power gravitate easily to such a view. And because of their power to control key story-telling institutions (especially education and mass communication), those in the dominant class can fashion a story about the world that leads some portion of the people in the subordinate class to internalize the ideology.

For me, feminism gave me a way to see through not only male dominance, but all the systems of illegitimate authority. I saw the fundamental strategy they held in common, and saw that if we could more into a space in which we were true to our stated ideals, we would reject those systems as anti-human. All these systems cause suffering beyond the telling. All of them must be resisted. The connections between them must be understood.


Enforcing masculinity

Systems of oppression are interlocked and enmeshed; perhaps the classic example is the way in which white men identify black men as a threat to the sexual purity of white women, requiring white men to maintain control of both black people and white women. While keeping in mind those connections, we can train our attention on how each individual power system operates. This book attempts such a focus on masculinity. The King-of-the-Hill Masculinity I have described is articulated and enforced in a variety of places in contemporary culture, most notably athletics, the military, and business, with underpinnings in the dominant monotheistic religions. We can look at all those arenas and see how masculinity-as-dominance plays out. In all those endeavors, the quality of relationships and human values become secondary to control that leads to victory, conquest, and closing the deal.

We teach our boys that to be a man is to be tough, to be acquisitive, to be competitive, to be aggressive. We congratulate them when they make a tough hit on the football field that takes out an opponent. We honor them in parades when they return from slaughtering the enemy abroad. We put them on magazine covers when they destroy business competitors and make millions by putting people out of work. In short, we train boys to be cruel, to ignore the feelings of others, to be violent.

U.S. culture's most-admired male heroes reflect those characteristics: They most often are men who take charge rather than seek consensus, seize power rather than look for ways to share it, and are willing to be violent to achieve their goals. Victory is sweet. Conquest gives a sense of power. And after closing the deal, the sweet sense of power lingers.

Look around in the contemporary United States, and masculinity is paraded in front of us, sometimes in displays that border on self-parody:
  • George W. Bush dons a flight suit and lands on an aircraft carrier; the self-proclaimed "war president" announces victory (albeit somewhat prematurely). John Kerry, fearing a masculinity gap, serves up a hunting photo-op in the 2004 campaign to show that not only does he have combat experience that Bush lacks but still likes to fire a weapon.
  • Arnold Schwarzenegger moves from action-movie hero to governor of California, denigrating opponents he deems insufficiently tough as "girly men."
  • Donald Trump, a businessman famous mostly for being famous and attracting conventionally attractive female partners, boosts a sagging public image with "The Apprentice" television show that pits young wannabe executives against each other in cutthroat competition.


  • And then there is sex, where victory, conquest, and dealing come together, typically out of public view. Masculinity played out in sexual relationships, straight or gay, brings King of the Hill into our most intimate spaces. Again, this doesn't mean that every man in every sexual situation plays out this dominance, but simply that there exists a pattern. When I speak to mixed groups about these subjects, I often describe the sex-as-dominance paradigm, and then I ask the women in the room if they have any experience with men behaving in such fashion. There is considerable rolling of the eyes and many exasperated sighs at that point. I present it in light-hearted fashion because to put it too harshly makes most mixed audiences very nervous.

    And then there is pornography, where brings the private imposition of masculinity into public, putting King-of-the-Hill sex onto the screen.


    Pornography's whisper to men

    We think of the call of pornography as crass, like a carnival barker's. Like the neon lights of Times Square in its pornographic heyday. Men go to buy pornography in the "red-light" district, the "combat zone." Pornography seems to shout out at us, crudely.

    But in reality, pornography speaks to men in a whisper. We pretend to listen to the barker shouting about women, but that is not the draw. What brings us back, over and over, is the voice in our ears, the soft voice that says, "It's OK, you really are a man, you really can be a man, and if you come into my world, it will all be there, and it will all be easy."

    Pornography knows men's weakness. It speaks to that weakness, softly. Pornography ends up being about men's domination of women and about the ugly ways that men will take pleasure. But for most men, it starts with the soft voice that speaks to our deepest fear: That we aren't man enough.


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See more stories tagged with: masculinity, sexuality, pornography, sexual fantasy, manhood, erotica, adult entertainment

Robert Jensen is a journalism professor at the University of Texas at Austin, and the author of, most recently, The Heart of Whiteness: Confronting Race, Racism and White Privilege (City Lights Books).

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Another article from this book?
Posted by: matti on Nov 17, 2007 12:39 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I respond only to urge others to resist responding (Yes I am aware that opens me up to critisism for "hypocracy").

The debate about this book and the author's Ideas has gone long enough.

There are matters of more immediate import.

It has become apparent that the editors will continue to bring this book up as long as it generates a big debate. (no doubt, due to the extra "hits" they can sell to the advertisers?joke?).

So please, resist response.

-matti

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» RE: Another article from this book? Posted by: walldodger1969
» RE: Another article from this book? Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» There's more of this crap? Posted by: timemachinist
Enough with the Porn
Posted by: abbadon2007 on Nov 17, 2007 2:09 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think I speak well enough for many an alternet user:

Articles about porn and what it means about our society are interesting, and often culturally pertinent, but almost certainly not enough to warrant their continuous presence and high refresh rate on Alternet's front page.

Also, there comes a point where balanced media coverage of a topic, like porn, can be construed as a particular fascination, then an obsession. True or not, I'm not interested in seeing my favorite progressive news source smeared as porn-obsessed. It's enough that everyone is out of the woodwork blasting Fox News for showing gratuitous sexually-laden imagery. We have bigger issues. Please ask your writers to forward their best articles on the impact or meaning of pornography on culture to a different news outlet for a little while, until the readership is interested again.

Thank you very much,

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Not just "porn" in general. Posted by: abbadon2007
» Ha! "promiscuous" Posted by: matti
» RE: nough with the Porn Posted by: abbadon2007
» RE: nough with the Porn Posted by: beelzeblob
Yeah, yeah...
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Nov 17, 2007 3:14 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So the world has gone to hell because guys are competitive and like pictures of naked women?...Sounds like all those whiny, touchy feely, "diversity" courses they made us take in college. And this author will probably have a bestseller for regurgitating it for the millionth time.

Want to see a real world example of women's oppression? Check this out: Saudi gang rape sentence 'unjust'...Please let there be a special place in hell for all members of the Saudi legal system who support this sick s***.

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Well written!
Posted by: kgs1947 on Nov 17, 2007 3:38 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've read the other posts about "not" reading this article or replying to it. Hog-wash! I found Jensen's writing to be superb and right to the point!

This issue of sexism is foundational to the reality of our current world, far from irrelevant in light of all of the pathological devastation that is occurring around the world by the likes of Bush and Cheney who epitomize sexist rants and behaviors. An analysis of C. Rice might make for a fascinating critique of women who have been well-trained in such belief systems.

So, keep the articles coming and maybe some day the opponents will see the visceral connection between our political situations and our sexist ideologies.

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» RE: Well written! Posted by: screwjack2000
the subject isn't exhausted, maybe because many of us don't want to think badly of ourselves
Posted by: Suzon on Nov 17, 2007 3:47 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Kama Sutra states that women who've had a lot of partners are less desirable and that the same is true for men.

While the honesty of posters of both sexes is commendable, there's something personally tragic when women express hatred of men and men seem indifferent to the welfare of women.

The battle of the sexes is really internal. We want to think of ourselves as not just honest (honesty is easy if you are unfeeling), but as tolerant and compassionate.

The subject of pornography tests both our tolerance and our compassion. From previous threads, it seems that women are more likely to be intolerant and men are more likely to lack compassion.

Are there really more important things to discuss than our own emotional intelligence? We in the west are educated for careers, not life. Happy people don't want to endorse or support human suffering and degradation. Your attitude toward pornography is a life decision, like deciding you won't rob banks.

If all porn vanished and couldn't be replaced, would people be unable to have orgasms? And might the world be a slightly better place?

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What a load
Posted by: Libsrule on Nov 17, 2007 4:29 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't know what else to say, but this constant crud of porn and the lame article about it are just rediculous. What the hell is this site, an anti sex site run by republicans???

Total hogwash.

Stop posting this crap.

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I also am getting tired of the porn discussion
Posted by: Camilla Cracchiolo on Nov 17, 2007 4:57 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We've had several articles all about this same guy and same book. Enough already.

You want to run a good article on porn? Tell us how to politically organize or retaliate against the "pron" and "hot XXX barely legal teens" spammers. That's the only real issue that gets my goat about porn.

Look, Jensen's not saying anything new and people already pretty much have their minds made up on the porn issue.

I feel like someone at Alternet isn't happy with the response of the many posters who have a pro-porn or at least neutral position and is going to keep beating us with this until we 'get it'.

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Thank You, Mr. Jensen
Posted by: Markson on Nov 17, 2007 5:00 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm sure I'll be but one of very, if only, young men posting in support of your attack against violent anti-female media (AlterNet comments on this issue are rabidly bigoted; anti-female extremism is the norm). This media exploits the power of images and of sexuality itself to fuel violent anti-female extremism. Sex can sell anything--including violent hate.

The feverish defense of this media is so openly irrational it speaks only to absolute hysteria. No one is suggesting that anti-female hate media be made illegal, but apologists immediately respond with the "Censorship!" misdirection. This is about a society standing up to hate and refusing to legitimize it any longer. However, apologists insists that merely encouraging such social disapproval is paramount to brutal injustice (Mind you, this is said without irony).

Any justification of this media as benign or trivial rests on the assumption that female humanity is either a technicality or treason. There is nothing more radical than subscribing to the belief that women and girls are human beings and, thus, entitled to basic rights and civil liberties.

Again, Mr. Jensen, thank you.

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» So what ARE you advocating? Posted by: war_on_tara
YES, to this article
Posted by: Sheila Parks on Nov 17, 2007 6:25 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I thought the article was great and right to the point.

I hardly ever read what men have to say about feminism, but found this author's analysis of feminism and linking it with the other isms and porn good.

As for saying porn is not important, it reminds of the men (and some women, alas) who say abortion rights are not important and let's move ahead and get to important rights and go back to abortion rights later.

As I am writing, I am reminded of how the second wave of feminism came about. Not only were women disgusted with how we were being treated by the leftie men, but also, these same leftie men were saying women's rights were not important and had to take a secondary seating to ending the Vietnam War

Keep the articles against porn coming and thanks for this one. I have just forwarded it on to 4 women feminist friends involved in other political work with me

Sheila

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» RE: YES, to twisted logic... Posted by: jimidee
» social issues Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: social issues Posted by: ladyoracle
» No to article and book Posted by: Badger1492
This is the part that I like...
Posted by: jimidee on Nov 17, 2007 7:20 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Pornography knows men's weakness. It speaks to that weakness, softly. Pornography ends up being about men's domination of women and about the ugly ways that men will take pleasure. But for most men, it starts with the soft voice that speaks to our deepest fear: That we aren't man enough."

Speak for yourself, Hoss! I know I am man enough. Plus, that doesn't make a lick (pun intended) of sense...why would any man who has such fears be comforted by watching another man with a penis 2+ times the size of his, pleasure a woman? Yeah, porn is really about as subtle as a dump truck.

My wife and I watch a good bit of porn from our collection, and I will tell you how it speaks to us. It says forget about the trials, tribulations and troubles of your day and sit back, relax, and watch these other beautiful and uninhibited folks have sex...then have great sex yourself. You too can have sex like a porn star if you could just relax a bit.

We are not into 'money shots', per se, as we both like for me to come in her, not on her. Simultaneous orgasms are hard to attain if you pull out of her at the last second...that stuff is for Hollywood. I understand that this is what gets most feminist going...the money shot. I guess if I squint my eyes and move my head back and forth really fast, I can see where that may appear to be degrading...especially to someone who their daddy "made" them have sex with him when they were little girls...or boys. But that is a whole other issue.

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More self-hating-man "feminist" drivel
Posted by: timemachinist on Nov 17, 2007 7:30 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another white-guilt, man-guilt article? I can't do more than skim this crap. I'm sick of whiny calls for "feminism." I'm sick of being blamed for every ill in the world. I don't exploit or dominate people, I'm a fine man and sick of all this hand-wringing about who and what we are. And why does Alternet constantly need to have porn-themed articles? Doesn't exactly bother me, as I just surfed over here after looking at a few dozen naked women pics. But politics pretty much ruins sex. You should publish stuff exposing how complicit the Democrats are in everything they blame Bush for. You know, leave the sex articles to sex sites and stop wrapping Democratic Party business-as-usual politics around Bush-hating, Bush-licking, self-hating-man "feminist" drivel. Thanks.

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The continuing anti-porn demagoguery
Posted by: Q30 on Nov 17, 2007 7:32 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yeah, I love how anyone who even attempts to question Jensen's nonsense are instantly labelled as misogynists. McCarthyite tactics at their best.

I think it is Jensen, not 90% of men, who's got psychological issues.

There is nothing the anti-porn crowd has to say about nude pictures that the Temperance movement hasn't already said about alcohol.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Hilarious ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Hilarious ... Posted by: Q30
» RE: Hilarious ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Hilarious ... Posted by: Q30
» That's easy Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: That's easy Posted by: Q30
» RE: That's easy Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Hilarious ... Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» Don't forget ... Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Don't forget ... Posted by: YogiBear
I love the debate on this subject:
Posted by: Q30 on Nov 17, 2007 7:49 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anti-porn feminists: "Pornography causes violence!"

Me: "How does it do that?"

Anti-porn feminists: "It causes violence!"

Me: "How?"

Anti-porn feminists: "It causes violence!"

Me: "HOW?! HOW DOES IT CAUSE VIOLENCE?! You have never answered this question! Not once! Not ever! And you can't answer it because there is almost zero evidence which supports your position and plenty of evidence which prove your position to be false! How is it you keep saying that pornography causes violence? Have you got some kind of deep-seated neurosis? And why do you ignore the women who enjoy pornography? Why don't you have a problem with gay porn? What the hell is your problem?"

Anti-porn feminists: "MISOGYNIST! WHY DO YOU HATE WOMEN?!?!"

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: I love the debate on this subject: Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Puh-leeze Posted by: Q30
» RE: Puh-leeze Posted by: yellow
» RE: Puh-leeze Posted by: h2281n
Bad Title, Good Article.
Posted by: boysen on Nov 17, 2007 7:49 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The knee jerk response to this article as "another article about porn" is interesting to me, as the article only talks about porn briefly.

What the article is about is Masculinity and Dominance. When I look at the smug picture of Cheney right on top of this article in today's alternet - I think this is totally relevant.

The dominant majority does not have to self-examine. They do what they want and they tell us our concerns are irrelevant, misguided, unpatriotic. (OH, not that liberal wussy bullsh*t again - the world is a dangerous place, you just aren't smart enough to see it. Thinking is for pu**ies, compassion is for women.)

It's a CORE VALUE conversation. And Jensen hits at a key component.

# Given the widespread acceptance of basic notions of equality and human rights, the existence of hierarchy has to be justified in some way other than crass self-interest.
# One of the most persuasive arguments for systems of domination and subordination is that they are "natural."

So what I hear, here, is a lot of people telling me that the current system is natural and logical. Men being men. Sorry, I don't buy it.

Competition is the system we have, collaboration is the system we need. Examining our privilege is the first step to collaboration. I have to admit that I have "more" than you - AND - be willing to share. As a REAL MAN - I can do this. As a MACHO MAN - not so much.

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» RE: Bad Title, Good Article. Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN
» RE: Bad Title, Good Article. Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Bad Title, Good Article. Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: Bad Title, Good Article. Posted by: ladyoracle
» RE: Bad Title, Good Article. Posted by: phatkhat
» RE: Bad Title, Good Article. Posted by: jimidee
The War In Iraq is more of a threat to women than pornography
Posted by: James W. Harris on Nov 17, 2007 7:51 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Men go to buy pornography in the 'red-light' district, the 'combat zone.'" says the writer ominously.

Well, maybe that's because of decades of government censorship that forced adult material into these areas. This includes the recent abuse of zoning as a censorship tool to limit adult bookstores to such locations.

Our real enemy is the state, especially the Bush Cheney one, not pictures of nekkid wimmen.

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If It's So Wrong, Why Does It Feel So Right?
Posted by: InsertNameHere on Nov 17, 2007 8:08 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think men like porn because it's still taboo, that's part of it's allure. It's dirty, naughty and, even if it weren't taboo, it would still sell in the millions, because you can't escape from the simple fact that men want to see women naked.

Men like visuals to get turned on, we aren't about talking, or romantic scenarios. It's much more primal, we want to see good old fashioned T&A. The female body wasn't made into such a wonderful combination of curves and softness for nothing as far as I can see.

So write all the weird psycho-sexual theories you want. In the back of every man's head is a primal man that wants to spread his seed, with as many women as possible. That doesn't mean that he will. I make no apologies for being masculine and indulging in fantasy that speaks to male urges. That's why these fundamental religious folks are so uptight, they repress their sexual desire. Then you get the Mark Foleys and the Ted Haggards of the world.

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» RE:If that were true... Posted by: jimidee
» RE: learn from the pros Posted by: jimidee
Porn is to jack off with, Bob
Posted by: logansafi on Nov 17, 2007 8:20 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From reading Pastor Bob's thoughts once again in regard to porn, it occurred to me that he is unaware that porn is a tool for jacking off. Many have tried to jack off while thinking purer thoughts, such as Pastor Bob advocates for men to do, but it just doesn't work as well as when using high quality porn.

'Does Porn Make the Man?', asks Pastor Bob. Well, Sir, not like clothes makes the man, for sure.

Most jacking off is done quite in private, and because of that basic fact, the only thing that porn is designed to do is make the man's penis softer, and that for only a short time. Bob, that certainly does help man come to know more the feminine side of himself in an actual physical sense, too.

We encourage you, Bob, to use porn more to jack off with, and get to know your feminine side just that much better. Though,if you were to grow any hair on the palm of your hands, Bob, then get yourself to a doctor ASAP.

Good luck, and remember... porn is to jack off with ONLY. Do not attempt to roll up any of the porn magazines into a stick and then beat the little woman with, Bob. If you did, that would degrade both her, and even you The Man.

If you are tempted to hurt her in such a manner, then take yourself off to the side and cry some. Then try using the porn in the correct manner once again.

Use the porn in the correct manner as directed, and I think that you will become a softer you, Bob. You have been jacking off in the wrong way, and it is hurting you as a man. Porn can help.

We wish you luck in dealing with your preaching addiction, Bob. Many have suffered from it in the way you do, and were saved by turning to porn. There is hope for you, your frustrations can be dealt with in a cleaner healthier manner.

Maybe you should start with just a naked woman's foot, Bob. Something that is not too hard a type of porn for the beginner sinner. Focus hard on that naked foot, and then just relaxxx some. You can loosen up and be whole again.

Porn is to jack off with, Bob. Give it another try.

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» Porn makes the man get off Posted by: messedup
Survival of what works
Posted by: fdgsr on Nov 17, 2007 10:07 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Feminism is a human contrivance, not a natural consequence of evolution. The female sex is the consequence of evolution. The female role in sexual reproduction is well documented. The male role is also well documented at the cellular and somatic levels. It is not well understood at the social or political level.

Sexuality is lateral to reproduction. That is, mating and the motive for sexual union is rarely a desire for offspring, though it may be an excuse and a biological motive to accomplish the function of reproduction that would not be done without a reward.

Reward is the motivitation for all action and functions. Reward is the motivation to produce products in commerce. Like sexual pleasure in biological functions, money satisfies a pleasure to motivate other activities. Business functions to bring labor, capital, and invention under control to produce useful products at the lowest cost in human contributions. That necessarily works against jobs and security for all. Charity can take care of the sick, lame, and the lazy. But charity uses products of labor and distribution, the humanitarian answer to raw nature.

Truth over all is the justification for any act or fact. Truth has it that what works succeeds, and what does not work, will ultimately fail. Extinction of unsuccessful attempts in biology is the truth that drives our existence and our lives.

Human evolution has found solutions to some of our problems, but not the one that involves our relations in functional humanity. It is the need for personal worth and worthiness. We measure it in terms of our pleasure and security. Pornography is an answer to denial of our pleasure in sex acts at will when deference to personal decision is necessary. Pleasure in the sexual union, and security of our personal worth and the rights of others.

Just as nature follows some cruel procedures because of evolution gone askew, man uses sexual pleasure for undesirable purposes not in line with human rights and individual safety.

Feminism must find a way to channel the feminine mystique lateral to the masculine physique so that the purpose of sexual reproduction can be maintained optimal to survival of the species, and to the human rights and individual freedom and hormonal output.

Chanelling or war and other competition is also necessary in order to give security to the other human activities. Just as children must be protected from themselves and their own personal errors, all citizens must be protected from themselves and from each other. That requires organization and purpose without prejudice to individual rights and freedom.

Truth is God.

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» RE: Survival of what works Posted by: psychochurch
Brilliant!
Posted by: schnak on Nov 17, 2007 10:23 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Robert Jensen does it again. Keep these articles coming! At first, everyone passionately resisted the idea that slavery was wrong in the 1800s, but that didn't stop people from speaking out against it. The same is true for the relentless oppression of women now and the ways in which it so obviously, and grotesquely, plays itself out in porn.

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» RE: Brilliant! Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: Brilliant! Posted by: Krotos
dworkin, mackinnon oh my
Posted by: hatefreezone on Nov 17, 2007 10:32 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I stopped taking this guy seriously as soon as he cited A Dworkin and C Mackinnon. I knew Dworkin in Brooklyn and she was aself-loathing and man-hating individual wo was the proponent of the lovely theory that ALL heterosexual sex was misogynistic and Mackinnon was a Robespierre of smut who allied herself with the loathsome Ed Meese in his porn wars.


Daniel Goleman has a great bit on male responses to visual sexual images in Social Intelligence. men are genetically wired to respond to visual sexual images as the FMRIs show. I have seen and experienced plenty of women getting aroused to the point of orgasm while watching pornography, and Jensen's simplistic and reductive theory doesn't account for that or the prevalence of porn where women dominate men.

But to the main point - to cite the utterly discredited Dworkin and Mackinnon to buttress an argument with only one flimsy paragraph even touching on his thesis, is akin to citing Milton Friedman and Grover Norquist as to why universal health care is a bad idea...


The truth is, you can put it in the bank. The more repressive a society is towards porn and other open expressions of sexuality, the more repressive it is towards woman, all the way to the honor killings of Pakistan and the slaughter of daughters in India. On the other hand, countries with less repressive attitudes, such as Denmark, Sweden, France, Canada and yes, even the much-reviled US of A, have far more women in positions of power and far stronger laws against misogyny.

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What's left?
Posted by: left-leaning-libertarian on Nov 17, 2007 11:13 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not satisfied with trying to deprive me of red meat, Mr. Jensen now tells me I'm an evil sleazeball if I like to look at the occasional image of a naked woman.

Frankly, I wouldn't even know where to begin to find the low-down violent porn he claims is so pervasive. . . nor would I want to find it; in my experience hard-core porn is usually boring to the point of being anti-erotic; most soft-core stuff is merely laughable, and I can turn myself on far more effectively with what comes from my own imagination than anything I could find on-line.

Now, maybe I'm just a weird aberation, the exception that proves a rule, but I don't think so. I really, REALLY enjoy sex (though I've been deprived of any for a number of years) but I really, REALLY hate violence, and that, I think, is a fact that deflates Jensen's theories faster than my now-thankfully ex-wife's nagging could deflate even my most priapically-obstinate erections.

I am a nice man; a kind man and a gentle man who tries to be a gentleman every day (and often gets p***ed on for his efforts); I hate guns, I don't believe in violence, especially not towards other human beings, I'm not turned on by rape fantasies or ritual humiliation. I believe in the equality of the sexes (not the superiority of one over the other), I believe in gentle, quiet, warm, unhurried celebratory intimacy (and I have an encyclopedic knowledge of how to achieve this if anybody'd ever give me the chance!) I have no need to prove my masculinity or dominate another human being.

Meanwhile, we have an insanely evil president who has called the US Constitution that he twice swore an oath to uphold a "goddamned piece of paper" and (if possible) an even more despicably loathsome vice president, both bound and determined to bring on their version of the Biblical end-times, and a group of elected representatives that won't hold them accountable for the crimes against humanity they've already committed, or do anything to stop them from launching a suicidal war even knowing what they know about how they got us into the first one!

And you raise a stink about porn? Let's get some perspective and talk about something that actually EXISTS and genuinely has some bearing on the survival of the species!

Is it any wonder so many people are so lonely?

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Ho Hum
Posted by: dumdumboy on Nov 17, 2007 12:11 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Old lady judges watch people in pairs
Limited in sex, they dare
To push fake morals, insult and stare
While money doesn't talk, it swears
Obsenity, who really cares
Propaganda, all is phony."
-Bob Dylan

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Wack
Posted by: ArtemInox on Nov 17, 2007 12:15 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
wack wack wack wack wack wack

www.addictedtoaggravation.com

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Porn curbs unwanted pregnacies!
Posted by: Landbaron on Nov 17, 2007 12:27 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Society teaches women to say no until marriage and porn can help the men. For men it's a biological need and porn helps relieve that safety valve. On the other hand we need more economic slaves to support the mushrooming baby-boomers that are retiring, so down with all porn and start making more babies, babies and more babies!!!

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Porn is...
Posted by: Pirate1 on Nov 17, 2007 1:13 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another avenue of control by anxiety that the system allows to go on for that reason. It keeps you off center and thus distracted and so less apt to be paying attention to the big picture while you worry that your dick might be too small. You never see a guy with an average anything in porn movies, they are all endowed like various quadrupeds. And women are made to feel that they haven't had sex until they've balled on of these freaks. I think it's a waste of time. All this focus on the genitals and not the people that have them says a lot about the duration of relationships in this land.

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Bob's personal problem...
Posted by: danielgeery on Nov 17, 2007 1:51 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
could possibly be resolved if he spent a few hours visiting and studying our species--for academic purposes only!--just like normal folks do.

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Once More ... With Feeling ...
Posted by: realmuzik on Nov 17, 2007 2:34 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The reality is that as long as we have a FIRST AMENDMENT TO THE U.S. CONSTITUTION that will never, ever be changed in our lifetime, porn will be VIGOROUSLY DEFENDED AND CHALLENGED BY THE RESPONSIBLE ADULTS -- BOTH MEN AND WOMEN -- who enjoy using it to enhance their own personal livelihoods, which do not involve shut-in loneliness, deviancy, perversion, pedophilia, and other criminal activities. Works such as Jensen's, Dines', MacKinnon's, Dworkin's and other critics will always be countered with such defenses. They have their First Amendment Right to challenge porn, and the responsible consumers of this trillion-Dollar, recession-proof industry have their EQUAL First Amendment Right to tell them that they are probably wrong about it. ENOUGH!!

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Masculinity vs. Civilization
Posted by: larrykueneman on Nov 17, 2007 2:50 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jensen has hit the nail on the head. We were taught that 10K to 13K years ago certain tribes came together to form a society, and that this was the begining of civilization. It was not. Civilization is the process of becoming human. There are mechanisms within our worlds that strongly work against our ever achieving civilization. A major one is this primitive concept of men being better than women. (The result as Jensen states, is that men believe they are less than they are and therefore strike out in many ways.) It shows up strongly in religions, but exists also outside of religions. A major key to the achieving of civilization is the demise of the need for any concept of masculinity. This comment comes not from a kid but has been the major subject of my cogitation for most of my 75 years.

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porn makes a lot of us feel inadequate
Posted by: gerdhansel on Nov 17, 2007 3:36 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't speak for other guys, but porn has always made me feel inadequate.

Porn shows you men who are impossibly hung having tantric sex with women straight from the Playboy centerfold.

Most of us will never make it with a woman that good-looking, unless we pay for it. Only one man in a thousand is the sort of Olympic sexual athlete (complete with ugly tatoos) who performs in these films.

Now I can watch the Pats dominate every other team in the NFL, and Tom Brady doesn't make me feel the least bit inadequate. But these porn actors make a lot of guys feel like complete losers in the sack.

Those who truly enjoy porn must get some kind of vicarious pleasure imagining they're John Holmes, or something. If I could perform like that in the sack, I wouldn't be interested in pleasure of the vicarious sort.

So the way I figure it, guys watch porn for one of two reasons:
1. Guys who sneak into that darkened theater, with their inner mind screaming, "Make me feel like an inadequate loser! It's all I deserve!"
OR
2. My life sucks. Women reject me, especially the babes. I want to make believe I'm THAT GUY!

Either way it's a sick obsession, and it'll fry your brain. Quit before you need glasses, guys.

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» "So the way I figure it" Posted by: YogiBear
By the way...
Posted by: Q30 on Nov 17, 2007 4:47 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If anyone still thinks that Robert Jensen is some kind of mentally-balanced individual, here's a hilarious take on his earlier work from the book Heterophobia by Daphne Patai:

"Patriarchal sex," Jensen tells us, is defined by the axiom "Sex is f*cking." That is why his goal... is "to be a traitor to [his] gender, as well as to [his] race and [his] class." Jensen gave up sex "with other people (including the people in pornography)" after realizing that he could not have sex of any sort without recreating "patriarchal sex." He explains, "I was the man, and I was in control because men 'naturally' take control of sex." Even converting to homosexuality did not save him from these dilemmas, for he found that gay sex, too, was contaminated by patriarchal values.

Reading Jensen's essays, whcih are largely autobiographical... I found it hard to avoid a sense of both the pathos and the grandiosity of his situation. here is a man who honestly seems to believe he has a kind of magical power over women by virtue of being a "penised person," and who furthermore holds that sexual relations are manifestations of his need for control... Jensen's work suggests a blinkered egocentricity... I am... struck by the sad and grotesque quality of the fantasy of power evident in his writing, the fantasy of which he reassures himself by grandly abdicating it, sacrificing sexuality on the altar of feminism...

Robert Jensen... seems mired in a belief in the superiority of his own genitals, a condition for which he is constantly apologizing. All men are raised with rapist ethics, he maintains, whetheror not they are all rapists in legal terms...

Jensen assumes that his truth-telling is the real thing, while other wallow in illustion, unable to confront their humiliating submission in the sex act, if they are women, or their will to power, if they are men."

Got that, folks? This guy is a self-castrating, sexophobic neurotic who thinks that all men have been raised to be rapists.

Another winner, Alternet. Keep 'em coming.

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» Hmm Posted by: Q30
Yes, biology is irrelevant.
Posted by: aethr on Nov 17, 2007 5:41 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"If men are naturally smarter and stronger than women, then patriarchy is inevitable and justifiable."

I've got bad news for you. Men are naturally stronger than women. Claiming that the biological differences justify the social differences, as you do, is just stupidity. Ignoring the biological differences is even greater stupidity.

"..., I often describe the sex-as-dominance paradigm, and then I ask the women in the room if they have any experience with men behaving in such fashion. There is considerable rolling of the eyes and many exasperated sighs at that point."

Do you then ask these women how many of them have asked men out? Men who don't behave dominantly (and aggressively) don't get dates. Do you ask the men how often they experience women behaving submissively in sexual encounters or simply in romantic relationships?

Men penetrate. Do men need to stop penetrating to find their true manhood? Do you have a clue? Is this book of yours mostly fiction?

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do i hear the waaaaahhhhmbulance coming?
Posted by: supergirlest on Nov 17, 2007 7:04 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i find it more than mildly amusing that so many of these comments exactly mirror what jensen is trying to say. i've read jensen and respect him. and guess what? i DON'T HATE MEN! that's right. why does it have to be all or nothing? why the knee jerk reactions to what he is saying, and not an iota of critical thought? look at television advertising. look at the language we use, in describing men that aren't "man" enough as "pussies." seriously. i worked in a bar for years and watched the male bravado puffing of chests go down nightly. over and over and over.

a small digression, as this piece only focuses on porn at the end and only briefly...for those who say that they want proof that porn causes violence and rape, i'd like you to present me some proof that it doesn't. what's that you say? you can't?

it is difficult to recognize sometimes, what is right before us - something that we've been entrenched in from birth. i say kudos to you , jensen. keep writing, i'm listening. i have a small son who knows nothing of this domination he is supposed to play a role in simply because he's a boy. and i don't want him to feel these sorts of 'king of the hill' pressures to conform as he grows older. life is tricky enough as it is.

and yeah, i'm a feminist. jensen's breakdown of oppressive systems is spot on, whether we want to admit it or not. masculinity doesn't have to mean destruction, power, treating others disrespectfully and harm. i thought this section was particularly powerful:
"We teach our boys that to be a man is to be tough, to be acquisitive, to be competitive, to be aggressive. We congratulate them when they make a tough hit on the football field that takes out an opponent. We honor them in parades when they return from slaughtering the enemy abroad. We put them on magazine covers when they destroy business competitors and make millions by putting people out of work. In short, we train boys to be cruel, to ignore the feelings of others, to be violent."

isn't this also doing a disservice to boys and men? think about it.

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» RE: the burden of proof Posted by: jimidee
» RE: the burden of proof Posted by: supergirlest
» ok - so if porn is not harmful Posted by: supergirlest
If you don't like it, don't watch it.
Posted by: geekboy on Nov 17, 2007 7:36 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Porn is a part of life. It's not an inherently bad. It may not be your thing, but that doesn't mean it's wrong or that I shouldn't be able to have it.

"But porn exploits women!", you say. I'd hardly call getting paid thousands of dollars a DAY being exploited. If you're really interested in fighting the exploitation of women, take a look at the clothes you're wearing and the products around your house. The majority of them were probably made by people (mostly women) who were working in sweat-shop style factories, making way less than porn stars. If you're really interested in fighting real exploitation that's a better place to start.

"But porn degrades women!" Certainly there are scenarios in porn where women (and men) are degraded. But as much as anti-porn activists would fight to have you believe otherwise, all of the people in those films are there by choice and everything they are doing is consensual. What you are seeing in porn is not people actually being degraded. You are watching a FANTASY.

That's right! Like almost all media in our day to day lives, from supermarket tabloids, to "Reality" TV, porn isn't real. It's not supposed to be. And the vast majority of people who use and enjoy it understand that. Ask yourself this "Have I ever had a fantasy about something I wouldn't want to do in real life?" I'll save you the trouble of answering. You, and everyone else on the planet has fantasies about things they wouldn't really do in real life all the time. Porn provides an outlet for those fantasies that happen to be of a sexual nature. Video games and movies provide the outlet for those who fantasize about violence. The reason why we have such an adverse reaction to porn is because we live in a fundamentally sex-negative culture that was founded on puritanical values.

"But porn causes rape!" you scream. If you look at the numbers for sex related crimes in a country like the Netherlands, which has both a well developed porn industry and a legalized sex trade you'll find a much lower incidence of such crimes. Could this mean that access to pornography actually REDUCES the probability of these types of crimes? I doubt there would be any way to prove this conclusively, however it's certainly worth pondering.

Pornography has existed since prehistoric times. Before human beings were writing words, they were creating images to get off to. Archaeologists have found many examples of objects and drawings of human figures with exaggerated breasts and phalluses thought to be used in "fertility rites". What exactly do you think people were doing with them? Staring longingly at them in the hopes that it would bring a bounty of food? Nope. They were looking at them while they jerked off.

Take a look through any art history text book at the array of naked bodies prominently featured throughout. "But the artists were celebrating the beauty of the human form!" you protest. Sorry to break it to you, but that stuff is wank material too.

All human beings at some point or another use images or words as a source of sexual stimulation. Think about "Romance Novels" chock full of references to "tumescent manhood" and "heaving bosom". How about the Victoria Secret Catalogue? The Sears Catalogue? Different things get different people off. You might not get off on the same things I do. That doesn't make your desires wrong. It just means we're different. You stick with your porn, I'll stick with mine, and we can all be happy and sexually fulfilled.

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Most of these comments miss the main point
Posted by: jg on Nov 17, 2007 10:13 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jensen wrote an outstanding and incisive analysis of "oppressive systems" and their common characteristics. This, and not pornography, was the main point. Go back and re-read the article. So why is everyone obsessing about the last two paragraphs of his analysis where he observes that pornography is yet another manifestation of an oppressive system?

I have always viewed pornography, no pun intended, as an art form subject to the same abuse as other art forms and not inherently evil or oppressive. That's why I concluded that the Jensen analysis was weakened with that as the concluding element, if not the most significant example of tools of oppression.

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» Well, it might... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
Porn & Masculinity
Posted by: jhdaugh on Nov 18, 2007 5:31 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Actually, far from making the man, porn, like addiction to spectator sports, is vicarious and ultimately reduces ones feeling of masculinity.

However one may wish to "identify" with the sex and sports "stars", the real message is that ONESELF is inferior. This message may be repressed, but it is there none-the-less.

The left is too fascile in my opinion about patriarchy. Clearly male competition is instinctually and circumstantially unavoidable. The extent to which philosophy and law can moderate this tendency is up in the air.

"Demonizing" "patriarchy" does not really tell us how to deal with the wide range of masculinity in society and its consequences. Seems that there is plenty of machismo lurking about in socialist countries. . . so, its not a linear result of capitalism.

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Attracting interest by means of questions
Posted by: talkville on Nov 18, 2007 6:22 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When posing questions is concerned, I've always preferred the simple and direct one posed by Nietzsche: Who Speaks?

I was drawn to this article by the question: Does Porn Make the Man?. I immediately wondered if it was not the obverse: Does Man Make the Porn? (That would be by far more interesting and informative, it seems to me anyway).

It seems that more deeply the questions this article addresses are those of virility (and the crucially related obsession with virtue), both concepts tied at least in etymology and philology with "vir" -- to be 'manly'. Much ego investment has been poured into these concepts over these last few thousand years and yet here we are: back at 'porn'- the flesh, the body, that 'vulgar' and 'base' thing!!

To those who would be Pure and would be Spirit--all flesh is 'porn', whether masculine or feminine.

Perhaps attending to bringing about more just, equitable and free and dignified social relations for all might go a longer way towards establishing what goes into be-ing a better man or woman or child, a better human perhaps?

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Outstanding Article
Posted by: Gravitas on Nov 18, 2007 6:44 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think this was an outstanding article!!!!! It wasn't really about porn as much as the reasons behind porn. He was really challenging what defines masculinity in this culture. That maleness needs to be linked to ruthlessness is the real problem which leads to exploitation of sexuality. Perhaps if the culture went beyond this, porn might not exist as we know it now, but erotic art and literature would have a place.

p.s. I think I saw this speaker once. I wonder if he came to speak for some progressive group in Chicago on Milwaukee Blvd earlier this year. Can't remember their name.

I thought his King of the Hill analogy of masculinity was brilliant. I am going to link this article for my own class the next time I teach gender.

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yet another
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Nov 18, 2007 7:48 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yet another Alternet article on anti-porn bullshit.

You guys don't get much support on this issue. Give it up already.

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Hierarchy and competition ARE natural.
Posted by: Krotos on Nov 18, 2007 11:30 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]

One of the most persuasive arguments for systems of domination and subordination is that they are "natural."

Is Prof. Jensen seriously holding that competition and hierarchy, especially when it comes to males competing for mating privileges with females, is solely a consequence of culture and not genetics? Even a passing acquaintance with the social organization of chimpanzees, humans' closest living relatives, should dispel that notion.

While I certainly would agree that societies which are not brutally competitive and provide equal rights to everyone are generally happier than ones which are and don't, I also think that the latter is far more "natural" than the former. Civilization, at heart, is an attempt to overcome certain aspects of fundamental human nature, rather than give it free reign.

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» RE: Hierarchy and competition ARE natural. Posted by: improperly_sedated
There are more important topics AlterNet...like the rising wave of alcohol abuse.
Posted by: Democratic Socialist on Nov 18, 2007 12:08 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The overuse/misue of porn is a definite problem nowadays, but what about all of the other major problems plaguing American society at the moment?

Take alcohol abuse for instance. With the economy in a tailspin and increasing insecurity amongst the populace, I've noticed that more and more people are becoming absusers of alcohol. It seems that many people who were moderate drinkers before and were once able to 'hold it together' now drink almost daily to try and relieve the stress of living in this cut-throat society. I notice that more people are showing up to work or school drunk or tispsy, or are noticeably drunk or half-drunk in other public places -- it seems that for many the only way to deal with America's current problems are to try and drink them away.

Don't forget that alcohol has caused more death and misery than ALL of the wars in the history of the world combined. How many people's lives and families and careers has porn ruined in comparison with alcohol abuse? Just putting things in to perspective here.

The Wall Street scumbags now suggest investing in alcohol, tobacco, and gambling-related companies in the near term because, as we know, if we go in to a recession or depression this is where many will be spending their money trying to escape and/or quell their misery. HORRIBLE!

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» RE: Prove it... Posted by: jimidee
Good until the last paragraph
Posted by: nfamous on Nov 18, 2007 5:51 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This was all good until the last paragraph. I love to do dirty shit in the bedroom but I don't consider that demeaning to women especially when they take pleasure in it themselves and they always stop me when it's not. That is a lot different from a rapist or a woman that feels she is forced to do things on camera in a porn that she doesn't want to because all the other female porn stars are doing it like double penetrations and anal creampies. That is capitalism telling them to do whatever they have to to be able to buy things they want and really don't need many times. Maybe it is about power in the bedroom but people are either going to be dominant or submissive. Obviously men are more well suited to the dominant aspect as the traditional providers, being physically stronger and in most positions of power in the world. He is overstepping on the porn connection. Some of it is just good kinky ass fun for men and women as stress relief and not a statement about inequality in our society more than it is about evolution and gender. If women were physically stronger than men and had been the hunters instead of the gatherers then we would be saying the same thing about them right now. It's about consent, healthy or unhealthy. There are submissive women that enjoy being submissive and there are women that are only submissive because they've been abused or because they know it's going to pay well. That is unhealthy.

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It's not male dominance. It's white male dominance.
Posted by: nfamous on Nov 18, 2007 6:01 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I also think that many white men do have issues with power. They are seeing things that used to come to them just by virtue of being white being taken away from them. I believe Michael Bradley's "The Iceman Inheritance" is 100% correct. I do not believe white men and women ever bonded positively because they evolved in colder climates. That made them overly aggressive over millions of years and now that the races are amalgamated that sickness of theirs had spread to the general world population. Africa had women in positions of power many centuries ago, as did Asia. You only see the persistence male dominant behavior in humans that came out of Europe. It's white male patriarchy but it spread like the common cold to everyone that lives in this white male run society that imbibes it daily. Oftentimes it is subconscious but that makes it no less true. I know most white men alive today had nothing to do with its creation but you have a helluva lot to do with sustaining and perpetuating it. Take a look in the mirror.

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not again alternet - yawn
Posted by: Eat Politicians on Nov 18, 2007 11:52 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Another bullshit porn article...fantastic.

I think you should get all of these goddamn "male feminists" to videotape themselves fucking and post it on the internet for free. It will be funny and no "male feminist" will ever get laid again. Not that they do now. That would be the athletes, pretty boys and men with money.

You fix that problem and you would actually be onto something. But that would involve looking at who is getting nookie and why they will continue to get nookie even though they exhibit the worse kind of masculine behavior. Why they do involves deep questions of "agency" and "decision making skills" and "biological function versus logic" that are simply getting avoided in gender studies because the answers do not mesh up with the bullshit fiction being espoused like religion. Believe or you are a heretic. Well you numbers about who wants to adopt the label are telling the story of who believes.

So good luck with that.

Me and my wife are going to go home and watch some porn...

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please
Posted by: argyle on Nov 19, 2007 3:46 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
you got it dude. I look at pictures of well paid hot young women naked because of the hierarchical structures of oppression that I have absorbed, not because they represent the biological equivalent of everything I am here for.

This kind of feminism is exactly what turns off most reasonable people. And it is because you try to blame a natural schism between the sexes for the economic inequality in the world.

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Stop Printing Lies
Posted by: RGD-5 on Nov 19, 2007 9:16 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From the article:
"Most obviously, this King-of-the-Hill masculinity is dangerous for women. It leads men to seek to control "their" women and define their own pleasure in that control, which leads to epidemic levels of rape and battery."

From the Department of Justice website (number of victims per 1,000):
Year___Rape___Violent Crime
1973___2.5____47.7
1980___2.5____49.4
1990___1.7____44.1
2000___0.6____27.4
2005___0.5____21.0

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» RE: Stop Printing Lies Posted by: supergirlest
» RE: Stop Printing Lies Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Stop Printing Lies Posted by: h2281n
A few things...
Posted by: vangogh69 on Nov 19, 2007 11:21 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jensen is a smart guy but he veers into dangerously puritanical territory with this anti-porn stuff. There is no one type of porn, nor of porn consumer, so either Jensen is being willfully ignorant or simpleminded. His argument that porn "harms women" ignores gay porn, ignores lesbian/fem porn, and a whole host of in-between genres.

Jensen is on to something with his critique of gender roles and how neo or post-capitalism reduces everything to comsumer object, including bodies, and this then is the problem; but Jensen takes the easy way out and is simpling proving nothing.

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Can someone please explain...
Posted by: opeluboy on Nov 19, 2007 3:49 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Alternets' ongoing obsession with pornography?

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Nice, nice, very nice.
Posted by: goldfish_bowl on Nov 22, 2007 9:46 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Robert Jensen, you are great. Keep up the great work; keep up the publishing. Your work is truly inspiring (and useful) to me as a feminist college instructor.

People threatened by the suggestion that most porn - much of which is outright violent and caters almost exclusively to men (Where's the porn for women?) - and many aspects of constructed 21st-century American masculinity are eminently unhealthy make me laugh. Feels good to not have to acknowledge inequalities in human power structures and to instead call them "girly" and "touchy-feely" and "Communist," eh. And it's easy for biological determinists to remind human beings they're just animals, so they might as well think, act, and treat each other like animals. I think not.

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No expectations
Posted by: BeyondBeliefs on Nov 24, 2007 1:40 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Rosemary and I were seven years old when we decided that there was something fishy about the sexual propaganda we were seeing and hearing.

We were immigrants who had already witnessed love, war, sex, child birth, old age, and death and the magical presentation of sex promoted on TV produced a curiosity that required investigation.

Because we had no high expectations, our sexual activities produced no let downs.

With in a few months we determined that sex is like eating and going to the bathroom... a pleasurable biological function that results in the production of babies.

Yawn.
Next.

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in opposition to all pro-pornstituters:
Posted by: axjxhx on Nov 24, 2007 2:34 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i am glad that alternet is giving jensen's book this much exposure. thank you, alternet. if it wasn't for being able to read so many excerpts of this man's book, i would not have gone out to order & buy the book.

to those who propel themselves into a commenting dervish after admitting that they couldn't even read the entire article: many people won't even bother with your opinions after knowing that you're too lazy to read. it's no wonder you look at picture books.

it's pretty depressing to see how pro-porners will defend porn in an article that is mostly about masculinity. do you only read the title and have knee-jerk reactions you must attend to? it makes me wonder how many pro-porners actually read the entire article. the words used by pro-porn commenters are just more examples of what jensen is writing about.

then, when someone writes in support of this article, they get attacked in personal ways. is this any indication that pro-porners feel that they are being personally attacked for consuming porn? the whole scenario reminds me of what it's like to be a parent. why do pro-porners think that feminists hate men? because feminists aim to take away dangerous materials from pro-porners for the benefit of the human family. pro-porners are acting like children in the throes of a full-on tantrum when feminists dare to write the Truth.

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Porn: It's for entertainment
Posted by: daenku32 on Nov 25, 2007 11:20 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
After direct violence against them, I think the only thing feminists really fear are men who are not seeking a sexual partner. Once porn can fulfill men's sexual needs, women lose that power over them. They can no longer control men with sex. It is exactly the reason why women so often oppose men getting off without them. It is the reason why they denigrate geeks more than other men. That is why they must construct the image that male masturbation only causes emptiness.

Will men still seek relationships? Of course. But they will no longer be begging for sex. And that is frightful to women who are trained to take advantage of this.

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I wanna marry a women that makes a lot more money than me
Posted by: Landbaron on Nov 25, 2007 7:26 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
So if the marriage works out I win and if it doesn't I win, especially if could I provoke her to commit violence against me.

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Three cheers for Hefner!
Posted by: Landbaron on Nov 25, 2007 7:58 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hugh Hefner was born in 1926 and has a genius IQ of 152. The problem is that he "used his smarts" for money and not for good. On December of 1953 the first issue of Playboy hit the street featuring the now-famous calendar photo of Marilyn Monroe. He brought pornography "out of the closet" so to speak, and made it more readily available. His magazine and the "Playboy Philosophy," is nothing more than barnyard morality. This purveyor of porn, more than any other man in my lifetime, paved way for the introduction of hardcore pornography in our culture and it's still growing. These never ending articles are proof of that!!!

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BeyondBeliefs
Posted by: BeyondBeliefs on Nov 27, 2007 6:20 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Eating was labeled ''a sin'' and ''Forbidden'', and the knowledge about what is ''food'' was ''Forbidden'', then people would be doing horrible things to each other in their struggle to comfort their discomfort.

Human reproduction was such an awkward, messy, Life altering, and Life threatening biological function that God had to create EXTRA hormones to encourage Creation to participate.

God was not stupid. God did not forbid the knowledge of Truth. God did not hide reality from your eyes. God did not make the children blind, ignorant, curious, fearful and starved for Normal Human Contact.

When we hid the truth from children, forbade, sinified and outlawed NORMAL HUMAN CONTACT, then we CREATED these endless, bizzare forms of ABNORMAL HUMAN CONTACT that threaten Human Happiness today.

Most kids know that we lied to them, and will investigate the ARTIFICIALLY CREATED, over glorified MYSTERY, that we have turned into a play thing called, ''sex''.

The children who have witnessed Humanity and child birth have no mystery to investigate, no lies to prove or disprove, and no glorified dillusions about the life altering and life threatening result of intercourse.

They will not risk the health and happiness of the fragile Human lives they KNOW and THEREFORE love, for something as totally unneccesary as intercourse.

Can you imagine how much misery we have created on earth in the lsat few millenium by outlawing God's Gifts and turning our children into crusading, frustrated rapists ?

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