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Giuliani Quotes False Stats to Deny America's Health Care Crisis

By Paul Krugman, The New York Times. Posted November 5, 2007.


Rudy Giuliani has a habit of saying things that are demonstrably untrue. And the American people have a right to know that.
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"My chance of surviving prostate cancer -- and thank God I was cured of it -- in the United States? Eighty-two percent," says Rudy Giuliani in a new radio ad attacking Democratic plans for universal health care. "My chances of surviving prostate cancer in England? Only 44 percent, under socialized medicine."

It would be a stunning comparison if it were true. But it isn't. And thereby hangs a tale -- one of scare tactics, of the character of a man who would be president and, I'm sorry to say, about what's wrong with political news coverage.

Let's start with the facts: Mr. Giuliani's claim is wrong on multiple levels -- bogus numbers wrapped in an invalid comparison embedded in a smear.

Mr. Giuliani got his numbers from a recent article in City Journal, a publication of the conservative Manhattan Institute. The author gave no source for his numbers on five-year survival rates -- the probability that someone diagnosed with prostate cancer would still be alive five years after the diagnosis. And they're just wrong.

You see, the actual survival rate in Britain is 74.4 percent. That still looks a bit lower than the U.S. rate, but the difference turns out to be mainly a statistical illusion. The details are technical, but the bottom line is that a man's chance of dying from prostate cancer is about the same in Britain as it is in America.

So Mr. Giuliani's supposed killer statistic about the defects of "socialized medicine" is entirely false. In fact, there's very little evidence that Americans get better health care than the British, which is amazing given the fact that Britain spends only 41 percent as much on health care per person as we do.

Anyway, comparisons with Britain have absolutely nothing to do with what the Democrats are proposing. In Britain, doctors are government employees; despite what Mr. Giuliani is suggesting, none of the Democratic candidates have proposed to make American doctors work for the government.

As a fact-check in The Washington Post put it: "The Clinton health care plan" -- which is very similar to the Edwards and Obama plans -- "has more in common with the Massachusetts plan signed into law by Gov. Mitt Romney than the British National Health system." Of course, this hasn't stopped Mr. Romney from making similar smears.

At one level, what Mr. Giuliani and Mr. Romney are doing here is engaging in time-honored scare tactics. For generations, conservatives have denounced every attempt to ensure that Americans receive needed health care, from Medicare to S-chip, as "socialized medicine."

Part of the strategy has always involved claiming that health reform is suspect because it's un-American, and exaggerating health care problems in other countries -- usually on the basis of unsubstantiated anecdotes or fraudulent statistics. Opponents of reform also make a practice of lumping all forms of government intervention together, pretending that having the government pay some health care bills is just the same as having the government take over the whole health care system.

But here's what I don't understand: Why isn't Mr. Giuliani's behavior here considered not just a case of bad policy analysis but a character issue?

For better or (mostly) for worse, political reporting is dominated by the search for the supposedly revealing incident, in which the candidate says or does something that reveals his true character. And this incident surely seems to fit the bill.

Leave aside the fact that Mr. Giuliani is simply lying about what the Democrats are proposing; after all, Mitt Romney is doing the same thing.

But health care is the pre-eminent domestic issue for the 2008 election. Surely the American people deserve candidates who do their homework on the subject.

Yet what we actually have is the front-runner for the Republican nomination apparently basing his health-care views on something he read somewhere, which he believed without double-checking because it confirmed his prejudices.

By rights, then, Mr. Giuliani's false claims about prostate cancer -- which he has, by the way, continued to repeat, along with some fresh false claims about breast cancer -- should be a major political scandal. As far as I can tell, however, they aren't being treated that way.

To be fair, there has been some news coverage of the prostate affair. But it's only a tiny fraction of the coverage received by Hillary's laugh and John Edwards's haircut.

And much of the coverage seems weirdly diffident. Memo to editors: If a candidate says something completely false, it's not "in dispute." It's not the case that "Democrats say" they're not advocating British-style socialized medicine; they aren't.

The fact is that the prostate affair is part of a pattern: Mr. Giuliani has a habit of saying things, on issues that range from health care to national security, that are demonstrably untrue. And the American people have a right to know that.

AlterNet is making this material available in accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107: This article is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.

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Common Good
Posted by: El Hombre Malo on Nov 5, 2007 4:44 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I understand how proposing a health care system that is universal and less costly can anger medical corporations... but the american voters? Anyone whose awnser to this, when explained in plain terms, is to say "why would I pay money, even if it is less than what I pay now, for someone else's health care" its simply not fit to live in society and should be kept apart. If a policy doesnt uphold the simple notion of common good, it is by definition against the mere concept of society.

But then I've lived all my life under a socialized health care and now I have to fight to avoid our local "neoliberals" privatize it.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Where do you live, Hombre? Posted by: Coleman
» RE: Where do you live, Hombre? Posted by: El Hombre Malo
What do you get when you cross a chicken with a snake?
Posted by: peacelf on Nov 5, 2007 4:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You get a neo-liberal candidate for president, like Hillary, Edwards and Obama and a healthcare plan that the Republicans bash for being socialized even though it's anything but socialized medicine.

"The Clinton health care plan" -- which is very similar to the Edwards and Obama plans -- "has more in common with the Massachusetts plan signed into law by Gov. Mitt Romney than the British National Health system."

If you want a real health CARE plan, Kucinich is the only candidate who offers a single payer universal healthcare program.

peace

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

rudy is bogus
Posted by: RODNOX on Nov 5, 2007 5:22 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
subject matter aside----why does anyone take RUDY seriously ????..as a fed prosecutor he danced the line of illegality---as mayor he was knocked down countless times as doing things against peoples rights----he appears blatantly arrogant and know it all yet was also guilty of going it alone even when advised differently....aka---command center.........NOT ONLY DOES RUDY APPEAR TO BE ONE SCAREY AUTHORITARIAN FIGURE WRAPPED AROUND A NAPOLEAN COMPLEX---BUT HE MOST CERTIANLY APPEARS TO BE COMPLICIT IN THE GOVTS PART IN 9-11.....WHETHER IT WAS CHENEY OR PENTAGON OR MOST LIKELY THE TERRORIST NATION OF ISRAEL. ANYONE WHO CAN STEP BACK AND SEE THE BIG PICTURE CAN SEE THAT NO MATTER WHAT RUDY SAYS ABOUT ANYTHING---ESPECIALLY HEALTH CARE---IS AND SHOULD BE IRELEVANT

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Giliani's America
Posted by: KeepsonTickn on Nov 5, 2007 5:23 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am sure that Mr. Giuliani meant to say there is an eighty-two percent chance of being cured of prostate cancer in the United States if you have a health care plan like his. I don't have health insurance, so if I get prostate cancer there is a one hundred percent chance that I will die of it. The alternative would be to subject myself to the humiliation of bankruptcy, welfare and charity, and the disdain of people like Mr. Giuliani. He and his ilk will talk about how anyone can get treatment in America by walking into an emergency room, but they don't talk about how debasing this system makes that process.

Spin a wheel and you have a better chance of deciding who gets medical coverage, and what quality of coverage they will receive than the American health insurance system. Without coverage no one but the wealthy can afford any but the most basic treatments.

Candidates may propose what they will, but anyone who defends the medical horror show we have now does not deserve to hold any public office.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Giuliani's America Posted by: MeridaLady
» RE: Giuliani's America Posted by: Jefferson's Guardian
» So sad on so many levels Posted by: KeepsonTickn
The Clear Successor To Bush
Posted by: SufiLizard on Nov 5, 2007 6:25 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I mean, all the Republican candidates lie about stuff. And they love to use phony statistics. But the brazenness of Rudy's lying makes him the clear successor to Bush.

So, for the 24 percent or so of people who think Bush is doing a bang-up job, Rudy's their man.

Of course, it's a little disconcerting to think that on the health care front we won't really notice a difference between a Hillary presidency or a Mitt Romney presidency. I am seriously disappointed in ALL the Democratic candidates' health care plans with the notable exception of Kucinich.

I honestly think implementing a plan like the one in Massachusetts will make our health care system even worse than it is now.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Their all the same!
Posted by: rocketman on Nov 5, 2007 7:37 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Its crazy to quote statistics in a case such as these. Any statistic can be interpeted and used almost any way to support the users view point.

But that doesn't stop republicans or democrats from doing just what Giuliani did. He's no better and no worse than the rest of the field..all politicians lie or mislead about something.

BTW, where did the author get the 75% survival rate for Britian? I don't doubt it as they have a first rate healthcare providers but dont do what you are being critical of.

As for socialized medical healthcare..no one has thoughts of an experience similar to waiting in your local DMV to renew your registration? A true nightmare!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: Their all the same! Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Their all the same! Posted by: tgabriel
» RE: Their all the same! Posted by: rocketman
» RE: Their all the same! Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Their all the same! Posted by: rocketman
» Waiting lines? Posted by: xconservative
» RE: Waiting lines? Posted by: rocketman
» RE: Their all the same! Posted by: wisegalah
dreamer5748
Posted by: dreamer5748 on Nov 5, 2007 9:07 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
this country has to stop being fearful of asking questions. most of the average voters in this country need to find time to get informed. why is it that to get to the top of the candidate polls, each candidate has to learn how to 'lie as truthfully as they can'? why not boycott the primaries until they learn how to speak the truth or at least do their homework on the subjects that they speak about. those candidates who speak the truth, slip every once in a while, speak of ideas, hopes and dreams for our country are all at the bottom of the candidate rankings! we need a little help here from the media! not everyone has the time to check the facts behind the candidates' lies, misspeaks. how can supposed intelligent men and woman say such stupid stuff? it is truly scary!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Revisiting the Killary-Hillary plan
Posted by: aberdeen on Nov 5, 2007 11:12 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem with this article is, it assumes that the Killary-Hillary plan is a good one, when in fact it is not much better than what we currently have (or more accurately perhaps, don't have).

The only way to properly take care of people's health in a modern nation is through a national shared-payment system. Any other way is not as good. That is what all of the evidence and statistics clearly indicate.

An article such as this providing half-truth about healthcare is arguably, just as dangerous as the ex-mayor from New York City's position.

Here is a shorter article with a better fact-based position: Healthcare Facts

Sincerely,
Richard Aberdeen
www.FreedomTracks.com

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Health Care
Posted by: Tanvir37 on Nov 5, 2007 12:02 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I was arguing with a friend about health care and she still seems to think the government should provide free health care for all. Then she went on to tell me how the government is bad, and it doesn’t do anything for anyone. If we rebuild the system we should try to emulate Estonia’s system because it’s one of the best in the word for getting your money’s worth. So why not take what works and apply it to U.S healthcare. It was only 16 years ago when Estonia was under Russian control, and through the Singing Revolution gained their independence (http://singingrevolution.com; this film is quite inspirational). They’ve come a long way.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

Another words - goverment insurance works
Posted by: richieb on Nov 5, 2007 1:57 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It turns out that most prostate cancers occur in men over the age of 65. So most of these cancers are cured while the patients are covered by Medicare - a goverment insurance program.

Not to mention that when Rudy had his bout with cancer, he was convered by NYC goverment issued insurance.

So, what was his point again?

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

RUDY'S JINGOISM
Posted by: drricklippin on Nov 6, 2007 4:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In addition to routinely getting his facts wrong Giuliani's incessant use of the jingoistic term "socialized medicine" is not worthy of a serious contemporary presidential candidate.

This jingoistic term should have been put to rest after the passage of Medicare in the 1960s

Enough already Rudy! Welcome to the 21st century!

Dr. Rick Lippin
http://medicalcrises.blogspot.com

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

CALL YOUR REPRESENTATIVE NOW!
Posted by: higginslads on Nov 6, 2007 12:30 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A sitting member of Congress is introducing a measure to impeach the vice president of the United States and the story isn't visible on Alternet. This should be the leading story on a website that bills itself as an "alternative" to the mainstream. Some alternative! More like left gatekeeper.

For those who are interested in doing something constructive about our current state of affairs, please call your representative and urge them to support Mr. Kucinich's bill. The Capitol switchboard is:

1-800-828-0498
1-800-862-5530
1-800-833-6354

Just ask the operator for your representative's office. If you don't know it, tell her/him where you live and she/he will look it up. Once transferred to your representative's office, politely tell the person who answers the phone that you urge your representative to support Kucinich's articles of impeachment against the vice president. You will probably be asked for your name and address.

I just did this. It's the first time I had ever called my representative (Rodney Frelinghuysen in NJ). It was easy and I felt better after doing it.

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