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Bush Is Right to Worry If Waterboarding Is Defined as Torture

By Jane Smiley, Huffington Post. Posted November 3, 2007.


We should take the criminality of the Bush administration's torture policy seriously, and that means making sure they are not above the law. (Also: A waterboarding simulation photoseries.)
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There is an article in Thursday's New York Times about the way Michael Mukasey has been hedging on waterboarding. The difficulty, according to many experts is, as "Jack L. Goldsmith, who served in the Justice Department in 2003 and 2004, wrote in his recent memoir, The Terror Presidency, that the possibility of future prosecution for aggressive actions against terrorism was a constant worry inside the Bush administration." Another expert points out that future prosecutors "... would ask not just who carried it out, but who specifically approved it. Theoretically, it could go all the way up to the president of the United States; that's why he'll never say it's torture."

I have to say that I am both glad and amazed that the Bush administration is with it enough to worry. That is a good sign. And they should worry, because they should be indicted, at least. I hope that they are, and that, indeed, it does "go all the way up to the president." One of the Attorney General's jobs should be making sure not only that the laws are enforced, but also that the laws are actual laws -- not opinions by John Yoo or David Addington or some other administration apologist. There is an exact definition of what a law is in this country, and it is not the same as a partisan legal opinion.

One of the enraging things about the Bush administration is the way that they have consistently written their own rules, as if governing the nation is like playing a game of stealing the flag, where the stronger team, when it finds itself losing, simply changes the score or the rules until they either technically "win" or wear out the other side (and in fact, George W. Bush, according to Gail Sheehy, was well known among his friends for changing the rules of a game until he could engineer a win -- and isn't that how they won in 2000?). To do such things is not "courage" or "resolve," it is tyranny.

Mukasey and other Bush administration officials clearly believe that they are going to put over the idea that they "might have gone too far", but that their "intentions were good" and they "just wanted to protect the country." In such a way, they plan to avoid paying the price for their choices and decisions. The law deals with this sort of defense. Someone whose car hits another person in a crosswalk might have been too frightened to stick around or might not have even realized he had hit someone, but the law still prosecutes these crimes, because a responsible citizen is expected to conform to the laws no matter what his emotional state. Same with Cheney and Bush.

You or I may suspect that they were indifferent to the idea of torture in their names, or possibly relished it, but we will never know that. We do, however, know that they explicitly and knowingly allowed torture. The law has no meaning if they don't have to pay for these crimes.

The number of times the Bush administration has skirted or broken or changed the laws to suit themselves is enormous and outrageous. We cannot hope to correct what they have done to our country without addressing their lawlessness. If this means retroactive prosecution, I say bring it on. The fact that they are worried means they know that they should have known better -- in fact, they did know better. All of them.

*****

The following is a photoseries simulating what waterboarding looks like narrated by David Corn, excerpted from an article davidcorn.com.

Below are photographs taken by Jonah Blank [last year] at Tuol Sleng Prison in Phnom Penh, Cambodia. The prison is now a museum that documents Khymer Rouge atrocities. Blank, an anthropologist and former Senior Editor of US News & World Report, is author of the books Arrow of the Blue-Skinned God and Mullahs on the Mainframe.


Digg!

See more stories tagged with: mukasey, waterboarding

Jane Smiley is a novelist and essayist. Her novel A Thousand Acres won the Pulitzer Prize and the National Book Critics Circle Award in 1992.

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Soaring Eagle
Posted by: Soaring on Nov 3, 2007 3:49 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why this technique is not tried with Bush, Cheney, Runsfeld, Rice and other?... Then we could ask them, what would they believed...It is, or it is not Torture?... their answer?. ¿¿¿¿ ????? Take a guess!!

Gerard from Spain

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» RE: Soaring Eagle Posted by: makeadifference
» you don't know this Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
Cueenb from Brownsville
Posted by: Cueenb on Nov 3, 2007 4:43 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe Bush and Cheney (Napoleon and Squealer) never read or finished reading Orwell's Animal Farm to realize that simply changing the rules to one's advantage doesn't make it right AND that the end results can backfire. OH, BUT I FORGET...THEY ARE ABOVE THE LAW!!!!

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» RE: Cueenb from Brownsville Posted by: Amandalee
No-brainer
Posted by: Tom Degan on Nov 3, 2007 4:51 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If Michael Mukasey can not see that waterboardeing is torture, he should not even be considered as A.G. Shame on any Democrat stupid enough to confirm him.

People are now implying that is would be a dangerous thing indeed for America to have a Justice Department without a leader for the next fouteen months. I beg to disagree. It would be a hell of a lot better without a head than we've had for the last seven years, first with Ashcrack (thank you, Jello Biafra), and then Gonzalez. A ship without a rudder won't go anywhere, but that doesn't neccessarily mean it will sink.

Obviousy the First Fool is looking for a nominee with a lot of experiance in the law - BREAKING IT.

Tom Degan
Goshen, NY
"The Rant" by Tom Degan

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» RE: No-brainer Posted by: Sushi
» RE: No-brainer Posted by: kellysgarden
» RE: No-brainer Posted by: ydef
» RE: No-brainer Posted by: Lauren
» RE: No-brainer Posted by: Schroeder
» RE: No-brainer Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: No-brainer Posted by: donl51
QED
Posted by: LMNOP on Nov 3, 2007 4:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Mukasey and other Bush administration officials clearly believe that they are going to put over the idea that they "might have gone too far", but that their "intentions were good" and they "just wanted to protect the country." In such a way, they plan to avoid paying the price for their choices and decisions."

And this would be likely to work largely because the American people themselves will readily support such a failed ethical and legal standard due to their own egregious moral and intellectual deficiencies.

"You or I may suspect that they were indifferent to the idea of torture in their names, or possibly relished it, but we will never know that."

Just because I can't demonstrate the ten thousand particulars that I have read or heard over the decade which together establish beyond even a reasonable doubt that Bush has no problem with torturing doesn't mean that they don't exist or that collectively they constitute less than a compelling inductive proof.

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: QED Posted by: Lauren
» RE: QED Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: QED Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: QED Posted by: Lauren
What people are capable of is unbelievable
Posted by: packofwolves on Nov 3, 2007 5:35 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Anyone out there who thinks that human beings are the top of the chain need to think again...humans are the only animal capable of devising ways to tortue one another and actually sit around and debate it. Bush is the lowest of the low. He and his cronies know that waterboarding is torture, they know that the U.S. is torturing prisoners (or detainees or whatever they call these immoral captivities) he isn't as dumb as he looks or acts, but he is a sick man with a sick agenda. Bush is a bully and a loser and doesn't care what happens to anyone else as long as he is okay. My opinion, if Bush thinks waterboarding is okay, then he shouldn't object if it happens to him...
Until politicians have to live by the same rules nothing will ever change.

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Getting Away with Torture
Posted by: LeaderofMen on Nov 3, 2007 6:41 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why would ANYONE in their right mind even consider the possibility of BushCo being prosecuted for anything they've done. They have control. They have the reins. They have Jesus.

It is inconceivable that the Dems will call him on this issue either. There is simply not a single act of stupidity that BushCo has been called on since the inception of his installation as President.

Nothing.
Whatsoever.

It is naive to think that this 'little insignificant' issue will be the 'tipping point'. There are far more egregious issues that have simply been glossed over, ignored, spun, etc.

This Presidency is immune to failure, immune to prosecution and will go down in history the way they want to write it. They make reality. They have made reality.

You and I have no say. Our elected officials have no say. If you or me had any say we'd already have an exit strategy out of Iraq and we wouldn't be talking about Iran right now.

See? He and he alone is in charge. You and me don't matter. FORGET talking about any type of turning point. It is irrelevant. All the talk and discussion about these many issues has gotten us NOWHERE. We are not in charge here. We live in a world now where democratic ideas are passe and without foundation anymore.

It's gone on for so long now and the damage is so severe that 2009 will not bring about the changes we need and desire. The American experiment has been over for many years now. I think we're in denial about that.

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» RE: Getting Away with Torture Posted by: VannaLaRoche
Quite Aware?
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Nov 3, 2007 6:43 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I heard a report several months ago that Bush had purchased a large estate in Paraguay, though I have not heard any more about this. Presumably a wealthy person living in Paraguay would be difficult to extradite.

After writing the first sentence above, I did a Google search and found a
reference
that provides some background on this topic.

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» RE: Quite Aware? Posted by: Sushi
» RE: Quite Aware? Posted by: AussieGeoff
» Thoughts to Ponder Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
» another Paraguay link Posted by: kellysgarden
UGH!!!
Posted by: debjbaba on Nov 3, 2007 7:55 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What are the Democrats waiting for? Are they hoping things will get better? Don't they realize they will be saviours in the eyes of many Americans if they impeach all the liars in this admisistration? Perhaps they are afraid of their own lies being exposed. My advice: sacrifice your own silly ass (if it is even in danger) before the biggest ass of them all heads south of the border and it is too late.

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» RE: UGH!!! Simple! Posted by: photon's feather
» RE: UGH!!! Simple! Posted by: Lauren
» RE: UGH!!! Posted by: fedupw/bush
The Pinochet model for Bush, Cheney, Gonzales, Miller, Abazaid, and Rumsfeld:
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Nov 3, 2007 8:39 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You know, I personally think that it doesn't really matter whether or not these guys are charged with torture - in fact, I'd rather not see them charged with torture right now.

Why? Simple - Bush, in his last days in office, would pardon them all, just as Bush Sr. pardoned all the Iran-Contra war criminals.

No, these guys should be hunted for the rest of their natural lives for their crimes, just as Pinochet was. Rumsfeld is already getting a taste of what his future holds:

Torture complaint filed against Rumsfeld, Oct 26 2007

"The rights groups say their complaint could go forward because people suspected of torture can be prosecuted in France if they are on French soil.

The complaint will now be examined by French prosecutors, who will decide whether it is well-founded and should be pursued or whether it should be rejected. The Paris prosecutor's office said on Friday night that it was checking whether Rumsfeld is protected by any sort of diplomatic immunity and whether he was still in France."


They are all war criminals, and it actually doesn't matter whether Bush pardons them or not. They will never be able to show their faces in public again.

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» RE: The Pinochet model: OR Posted by: photon's feather
Bush Is Right to Worry If Waterboarding Is Defined as Torture
Posted by: flymulla on Nov 3, 2007 3:38 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich - Wikipedia, the free ...
The book is based largely on the captured documents of the Third Reich, ... The reception of William L. Sharer’s 'The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich' in ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_the_Third_Reich - 28k - Cached - Similar pages

defines one of the methods to torture any one he did not like by tying the “criminal" to a post and pour water constantly drop by drop by drop on his head till he screamed and felt that the drops wear hammering him or death. And he died. Is this what you mean? A slow death? I mean that is a torture to me, the way I read this.

I thank you
Firozali A.Mulla MBA PhD
P.O.Box 6044
Dar-Es-Salaam
Tanzania
East Africa

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Worse Than Waterboarding
Posted by: AlexLawyer on Nov 3, 2007 6:21 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All the focus on waterboarding distracts attention from painful "stress positions", psychological torture and, a fortiori, the numerous deaths under torture by US officials. All of these things are clearly illegal and have been so defined by all US governments (at least when practiced by governments we disliked) prior to the Bush regime. The undeniable, obvious fact is that the US government is breaking domestic and international law in egregious ways, adding fuel to the wildfires of anti-Americanism everywhere, especially in the Muslim world. This can only increase terrorism, and even our allies are rightly disgusted with us.

But Congress issues a few tepid comments while avoiding the real issues. It has granted legal immunity to torturers and ruled impeachment "off the table." In so doing it, including its members running for president, has thoroughly discredited itself and become an accomplice to crimes. The only way to regain the rule of law and the respect of the world is to vigorously investigate and prosecute all wrongdoers, up to and including Bush.

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Bush is a Sadistic Dry Drunk Coward
Posted by: mcartri on Nov 3, 2007 6:29 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our White House is full of sadists. They are enabled by all the Republicans and way too many Democrats. Explain to me the difference between Germany in the 1930's and America today. Our Congress represents those who have purchased it-Corporate America. As the middle class continues to dissolve, so too does our once upon a time democracy. Watching our MSM, courts and congress stand by as this happens is truly torture.

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TORTURE DEFINED
Posted by: lrrysgl on Nov 3, 2007 6:44 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The United States ratified the United Nations Convention Against Torture - which states "no exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability, or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture"

As the letter reflects, the international legal definition of torture is universally recognized and accepted - and is very different from what Administration lawyers claim. The United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (which I will call "the Torture Convention") forbids torture under any circumstances and does not allow the prohibition to be derogated even in conditions of national emergency.
It's important to note here that the U.S. - as well as all other liberal democracies -- are signatories to the Torture Convention, and that under the Constitution, treaties ratified by the Senate are U.S. law, just like statutes and Supreme Court decisions. So claiming the U.S. has the right to differ from this definition is simply untenable.

Here is the Torture Convention's definition of "torture": "any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity."

This sensible definition reflects our instincts about what torture is, and why it is wrong. It makes clear that torture to extract information is still torture. And it makes clear, too, that torture need not put its victim on the brink of death to be torture.
One would have thought these points were intuitively clear - until the Administration memos became public. But even if the point wasn't intuitively clear, it was legally clear - as a matter of a treaty that had become U.S. law.

Exclusive: Secret Memo - Send to Be Tortured
By Michael Isikoff
Newsweek
08 August 2005 Issue
An FBI agent warned superiors in a memo three years ago that US officials who discussed plans to ship terror suspects to foreign nations that practice torture could be prosecuted for conspiring to violate US law, according to a copy of the memo obtained by NEWSWEEK.

Torturing Children
By William Rivers Pitt
t r u t h o u t | Perspective
The biggest story of the Iraq war is about the torture of Iraqi children.
A German TV magazine called 'Report Mainz' recently aired accusations from the International Red Cross, to the effect that over 100 children are imprisoned in U.S.- controlled detention centers, including Abu Ghraib. "Between January and May of this year, we've registered 107 children, during 19 visits in 6 different detention locations," said Red Cross representative Florian Westphal in the report.

September 2, 2006 at 19:13:39
Many High Bush Officials Broke Laws Against Torture

by Sherwood Ross
http://www.opednews.com
Hold For Release 6 PM Monday, September 4, 2006

MANY HIGH BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS
GUILTY OF VIOLATING ANTI-TORTURE LAWS

By Sherwood Ross

At least a score of high Bush Administration officials authorized, and hundreds of U.S. military and other government employees committed, crimes involving the torture of prisoners captured in the Middle East, published reports and legal documents indicate.

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» RE: TORTURE DEFINED Posted by: Lauren
Encouragement from Bush to Torture Americans Abroad
Posted by: sofla100 on Nov 3, 2007 7:12 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Thanks to GW Bush and company, you, as an American are far less safer than you use to be traveling in many a foreign land. The news of GW Bush, waterboarding, Abu Ghraib, is everywhere and much more prominently displayed in other countries then the USA. Let me tell you, if you have traveled in countries like China, Russia, etc., as an American, you sure don't feel much, at times, is protecting you from the police at times and what can happen. You want all the protections you can get. But, our illustrious President and leadership has demonstrated now to the world that the Geneva Conventions don't matter. And, Americans are "fair game," especially if they cannot produce the money to quickly spring out of jail. It use to be other countries had a tiny bit of fear or concern in going after an American, not anymore, thank you GW Bush.

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Let's lay it out clearly.
Posted by: slydad on Nov 4, 2007 3:23 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If waterboarding and other methods that we use to extract vital information from detainees are considered torture, then I'm in favor of "torture". I could give a rats ass about their "human rights". If they want to be treated humanely, then they can stop fighting against us.

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» RE: Let's lay it out clearly. Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» No boyscout here Posted by: slydad
» torture doesn't work Posted by: frantaylor
» maybe "block"? Posted by: Coleman
» They do much worse. Posted by: slydad
History lesson
Posted by: willymack on Nov 4, 2007 4:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
OK, kiddies; let's review the bush horror to date. 1. In 2000, the bush gang, nominally under the rethug banner, steal the "election". They browbeat, bludgeon,and bamboozle congress and our people so thoroughly they make it stick, because NOBODY DOES DOODLEY-SQUAT ABOUT IT. 2. Correctly guessing our people are so stupid and apathetic that they can do it again, they do, in 2004. During the interval, 911 happens. Whether or not they themselves brought this hideous crime off matters not one bit as THEY LET IT HAPPEN AND TRIED TO COVER SOMETHING UP in its aftermath. I think we can all agree on that one. After 911, a phony war of death, destruction, and theft of oil is inflicted on a helpless Iraq. Bad as the "war" was, the continued occupation is far worse and more brutal. 3. Not satisfied with all this, the bushies proceed to try to destroy Social Security, Medicare, our educational system, and our enviornment, through boneheaded politics and pure, unadulterated greed, while at the same time giving huge tax breaks to those least in need of them, effectively destroying our middle class. 4. In summary: The bushies are guilty of theft of two elections, (probably) 911, a phony "war" and even more brutal occupation, war crimes, crimes against humanity, war profiteering, the looting of our treasury and attempted eradication of out social programs, the continuing assualt on our fragile enviornment, and now want us to swallow torture as a good American policy by redefining it as "not torture", when anyone with half a brain knows damn well that's exactly what it is. Is there ANY horror these monsters are not capable of? Do we really want to find out? Would ANY of this have happened if our people had the guts to act courageously and RESPONSIBLY in 2000 and prevent the theft of that "election"? I don't think so. Don't think for one minute that this evil regime is through with its destructive ways; they were given an inch, and they took ten miles. They'll continue to screw us over unless they're STOPPED.

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» RE: History lesson Posted by: Lauren
NOT "No Purpose Whatsoever"
Posted by: bigbad on Nov 4, 2007 10:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"This isn't a matter of sacrificing moral values to keep us safe; it's sacrificing moral values for no purpose whatsoever."

There was a very clear purpose for the CIA and Defense to use torture to elicit confessions, not intelligence. Just as Cheney was pressuring the CIA executives to give him "proof" of Saddam Hussein's association with Al Qeada, and his holding of WMD, so the lower-level CIA an Defense department interrogators were under pressure to give these answers to their bosses.

The TRUTH was the last thing they wanted.

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NeoCons fleeing..and so are their family members
Posted by: militaryhater on Nov 4, 2007 10:50 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have been wondering why the rumors that Cheney has bought a home in Dubai to be near Haliburton isn't being explored by more people. Why doesn't the Huffington Post or better yet, Alternet explore why these so called 'true Americans' are fleeing our country after their term is up? Rumsfeld has already been charged a War Criminal by France and supposedly he fled there the other day as they were after him. The World knows these idiots controlling our country, and holding our constitution and our people hostage are WAR CRIMINALS, and so should we. We fear they will torture us and throw us in prison...well, if everyone goes after them, there isn't enough prisons for them to throw us in. IT IS TIME FOR a NUREMBURG trail for WAR CRIMES In our country. No more waffling...protect AMERICA! The true terrorists sit in the White house. Let's get 'em..IMPEACHMENT Proceedings NOW. Court Trials now!!!

I am not surprised Bush has bought a home in Paraguay. Jenna, his daughter, said on Leno the other day that she and her new husband bought a home in Latin America. The 'great' teacher the media boasts she is, decided 'not' to live here anymore. Why is that? Jenna, leaving the 'greatest country in the world'?

Hmm..it sounds like they know 'They are WAR CRIMINALS' and just like the Nazis in WWII they fled to other countries including Latin America where they couldn't be touched by our Government, other Governments around the world or the
World Court which we refuse to recognize..Yeah, how convenient...the Neocons in Washington are above the law. In
fact, they can rewrite the Laws here to protect themselves and Congress and our Great Supreme Court idiots let them. All Corrupt! A COUP HAS happened here. Wake up!

They will flee and we can't touch them. Haliburton left, so we can't touch them either. It is time to pass laws against Corporations hiding their money oversees and escaping 'back taxes' they owe our country. We have to take the power back from Corporations..We must Fight now! Also, take the power back from Special interests...LOBBYISTS.

We need to vote for all our Supreme Court justices as well. They affect our lives too much and we have a right to vote who we want 're-writing' our laws. Is our Country of the People and by the People? If so, then they need to be elected by us or we have a Dictator as President which is already moving towards and God knows we NEVER EVER WANT THAT.

Take back our Constitution...run the NEOCONS out of Washingtion while they are here on our soil. IMPEACHMENT MUST HAPPEN NOW!!!

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"Enhanced Interrogation" would make Orwell Blush
Posted by: Mister_PsyOps on Nov 5, 2007 3:01 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This is pure Fascism.

It will continue until the bully bluff is called by enough people who believe what is left of "democracy" is worth keeping alive.

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CALL YOUR REPRESENTATIVE NOW!
Posted by: higginslads on Nov 6, 2007 12:37 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A sitting member of Congress is introducing a measure to impeach the vice president of the United States and the story isn't visible on Alternet. This should be the leading story on a website that bills itself as an "alternative" to the mainstream. Some alternative! More like left gatekeeper.

For those who are interested in doing something constructive about our current state of affairs, please call your representative and urge them to support Mr. Kucinich's bill. The Capitol switchboard is:

1-800-828-0498
1-800-862-5530
1-800-833-6354

Just ask the operator for your representative's office. If you don't know it, tell her/him where you live and she/he will look it up. Once transferred to your representative's office, politely tell the person who answers the phone that you urge your representative to support Kucinich's articles of impeachment against the vice president. You will probably be asked for your name and address.

I just did this. It's the first time I had ever called my representative (Rodney Frelinghuysen in NJ). It was easy and I felt better after doing it.

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Torture is ugly stuff -- I was tortured
Posted by: ocsailorman on Nov 6, 2007 3:24 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Ever since Mukasey started to deny that water-boarding is torture I've been walking around with grinding pain in my gut. My throat is more sore than it's been in years. And I know that it's psychosomatic. The news is filled with a casual discussion of something that -- once again -- is giving me screaming nightmares. This is not academic to me. Waterboarding is not the prettied up pictures that a few web-sites have shown. I know. I Was Tortured.
What has happened to our country? At least in the past our government officials had enough of a sense of propriety to lie about practicing torture. When I was tortured in Colombia 20 years ago it was by Colombian navy personnel who had been trained by the same US CIA contract teams that trained Argentinians and Brazilians. They had, apparently, learned their trade in Vietnam. My torturers thought it funny that Americans taught them how to treat their own people, and then they used the techniques on an American. My guys were really turned on by electric shock administered to genitals, nipples, tongue, ear-lobes and anus. They seemed to like the technology. From my end of the production, the water board was a far worse experience, albeit low-tech. In the former know you are being subjected to excruciating pain, but know in some part of your screaming brain that it will sometime end. In water boarding, you only know you are dying. One thing you didn't mention was what happens when your mouth is covered with a loose cloth and water poured on it. You inhale the soaked cloth into your throat as you attempt to get air into your lungs. As you die, it is jerked out to keep you alive. When it is jerked out, it tears the lining of your throat. Pretty ugly stuff; particularly the second or third time. Oh yeah, ... I voted for Schummer the first time he ran for senator, then voted for Feinstein for re-election after I moved to California. Irony, or what??

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we shall see in Jan 2009
Posted by: whealeydj on Nov 10, 2007 3:54 PM   
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This week the Democratic leadership (pelosi) urged House Democrats to vote against the Kucinich plan to impeach Cheney and Republicans voted for it since they think it is so outrageous it will win sympathy for Cheney. Also Feinstein and Schumer enabled Mukasey to become Attorney General. I can only hope Schumer is right and Mukasey will restore rule of law rather than rule of rampant Bushism to Department of Justice. I was waffling but Kucinich definitely has my vote in primary even if "worthless" since a vote for Kucinich is a vote for forthright liberalism and not neoliberal which mean pro interventionist and crypto conservative in my dictionary.

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