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Where Have All the Protests Gone?

By Tom Engelhardt, Tomdispatch.com. Posted October 30, 2007.


As the occupation of Iraq continues, the number and magnitude of demonstrations appear to be shrinking. What is happening to the protest culture of wars past?

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As I was heading out into a dark, drippingly wet, appropriately dispiriting New York City day, on my way to the "Fall Out Against the War" march -- one of 11 regional antiwar demonstrations held this Saturday -- I was thinking: then and now, Vietnam and Iraq. Since the Bush administration had Vietnam on the brain while planning to take down Saddam Hussein's regime for the home team, it's hardly surprising that, from the moment its invasion was launched in March 2003, the Vietnam analogy has been on the American brain -- and, even domestically, there's something to be said for it.




As John Mueller, an expert on public opinion and American wars, pointed out back in November 2005, Americans turned against the Iraq War in a pattern recognizable from the Vietnam era (as well as the Korean one) -- initial, broad post-invasion support that eroded irreversibly as American casualties rose. "The only thing remarkable about the current war in Iraq," Mueller wrote, "is how precipitously American public support has dropped off. Casualty for casualty, support has declined far more quickly than it did during either the Korean War or the Vietnam War." He added, quite correctly, as it turned out: "And if history is any indication, there is little the Bush administration can do to reverse this decline."




Where the Vietnam analogy distinctly breaks down, however, is in the streets. In the Vietnam era, the demonstrations started small and built slowly over the years toward the massive -- in Washington, in cities around the country, and then on campuses nationwide. In those years, as anger, anxiety, and outrage mounted, militancy rose, and yet the range of antiwar demonstrators grew to include groups as diverse as "businessmen against the war" and large numbers of ever more vociferous Vietnam vets, often just back from the war itself. Almost exactly the opposite pattern -- the vets aside -- has occurred with Iraq. The prewar demonstrations were monstrous, instantaneously gigantic, at home and abroad. Millions of people grasped just where we were going in late 2002 and early 2003, and grasped as well that the Bush dream of an American-occupied Iraq would lead to disaster and death galore. The New York Times, usually notoriously unimpressed with demonstrations, referred to the massed demonstrators then as the second "superpower" on a previously one superpower planet. And it did look, as the Times headline went, as if there were "a new power in the streets."




But here was the strange thing, as the "lone superpower" faltered, as the Bush administration and the Pentagon came to look ever less super, ever less victorious, ever less powerful, so did that other superpower. Discouragement of a special sort seemed to set in -- initially perhaps that the invasion had not been stopped and that, in Washington, no one in a tone-deaf administration even seemed to be listening. Still, through the first years of the war, on occasion, hundreds of thousands of demonstrators could be gathered in one spot to march massively, even cheerfully; these were crowds filled with "first timers" (who were proud to tell you so); and, increasingly, with the families of soldiers stationed in Iraq (or Afghanistan), or of soldiers who had died there, and even, sometimes, with some of the soldiers themselves, as well as contingents of vets from the Vietnam era, now older, greyer, but still vociferously antiwar.




However, over the years, unlike in the Vietnam era, the demonstrations shrank, and somehow the anxiety, the anger -- though it remained suspended somewhere in the American ether -- stopped manifesting itself so publicly, even as the war went on and on. Or put another way, perhaps the anger went deeper and turned inward, like a scouring agent. Perhaps it went all the way into what was left of an American belief system, into despair about the unresponsiveness of the government -- with paralyzing effect. As another potentially more disastrous war with Iran edges into sight, the response has been limited largely to what might be called the professional demonstrators. The surge of hope, of visual creativity, of spontaneous interaction, of the urge to turn out, that arose in those prewar demonstrations now seemed so long gone, replaced by a far more powerful sense that nothing anyone could do mattered in the least.




When it comes to the Vietnam analogy domestically, the question that still hangs in the air is whether, as in the latter years of the Vietnam era, the soldiers, in Iraq (and Afghanistan) as well as here at home, will take matters into their own hands; whether, as with Vietnam, in the end Iraq (and Iran) will be left to the vets of this war and their families and friends -- or to no one at all.




The Consensus Gap




Here's the strange thing: As we all know, the Washington Consensus -- Democrats as well as Republicans, in Congress as in the Oval Office -– has been settling ever deeper into the Iraqi imperial project. As a town, official Washington, it seems, has come to terms with a post-surge occupation strategy that will give new meaning to what, in the days after the 2003 invasion, quickly came to be known as the Q-word (for the Vietnam-era "quagmire"). The President has made it all too clear that he will fight his war in Iraq to the last second of his administration -- and, if he has anything to say about it (as indeed he might), well beyond. In their "classified campaign strategy for the country," our ambassador in Baghdad, Ryan Crocker, and the President's surge commander, Gen. David Petraeus, are reportedly already planning their war-fighting and occupation policy through the summer of 2009, and so into the next presidency. The three leading Democratic candidates for president, Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, and John Edwards, have refused to guarantee that American troops will even be totally out of Iraq by 2013, the end of a first term in office -- as essentially has every Republican candidate except Ron Paul, the libertarian congressman from Texas. In fact, in Washington, the ongoing war is now such a given that it's hardly being discussed at the moment (as the one in Afghanistan has never been). The focus has instead shifted to the next possible administration monstrosity -- a possible air assault on Iran that would essentially guarantee a global recession or depression.




Meanwhile, the American people -- having formed their own Iraq Study Group as early as 2005 -- have moved in another direction entirely. On this, the opinion polls have been, and remain (as Mueller suggested they would), unanimous. When Americans are asked how the President is handling the war in Iraq, disapproval figures run 67% to 26% in the most recent CBS News poll; 68% to 30% in the ABC News/Washington Post poll; and, according to CNN's pollsters, opposition to the war itself runs at a 65% to 34% clip. As for "staying" some course in Iraq to 2013 or beyond, that CBS News poll, typically, has 45% of Americans wanting all troops out in "less than a year" and 72% in "one to two years" -- in other words, not by the end of, but the beginning of, the next presidential term in office. (The ABC News/Washington Post poll indicates, among other things, that, by 55% to 40%, Americans feel the Democrats in Congress have not gone "far enough in opposing the war in Iraq"; and that they want Congress to rein in the administration's soaring, off-the-books war financing requests.)




In other words, the Washington elite are settling ever deeper, ever less responsively, into the Big Muddy, while the American Consensus has come down quite decisively elsewhere. For all intents and purposes, it seems that most Americans are acting as if some policy page had already been turned, as if Iraq was so been-there, done-that. Perhaps many are also assuming that the present administration is beyond unreachable and that any successor will be certain to fix the problem; or, alternately, that nothing the public can do in relation to the Washington Consensus, including voting, matters one whit; or some helpless, hopeless combination of the two and who knows what else.




As I sat in that rumbling subway car on my way to the march in lower Manhattan, I kept wondering who, between the Iraq-forever-and-a-day crowd and the been-there/done-that folks might think it worth the bother to turn out at an antiwar rally on such a lousy day. And it was then that a brief encounter from the summer came to mind.




I'm now 63 years old and increasingly feel as if my 1950s childhood came out of another universe. Sometime in August, I ran into a "kid" -- maybe in his early thirties -- employed by a consulting firm to do what once would have been the work of a federal government employee. He gamely tried to explain the sinews of his privatized world to me. As he spoke, I began to wonder whether he was interested in working in the federal government, not just as a consultant to it. To ask the question, I began explaining how I had grown up dreaming about being part of the government -- the State Department, actually. It seemed to me then like an honorable, if not downright glorious, destiny to represent your country to others. It was a feeling that left me deep into the 1960s when I had, in fact, already been accepted into the United States Information Agency (from which I would have, a good deal less gloriously, propagandized for my country). It was only then that anger over the Vietnam War swept me elsewhere.




I told the young consultant that, when young, I had dreamed of doing my "civic duty" and his eyes promptly widened in visible disbelief. He rolled that phrase around for a moment, then said (all dialogue recreated from my faulty memory): "Civic duty? No one in my world thinks about it that way any more." He paused and added, hesitantly, "But I might actually like to be in the bureaucracy for a while."




That was my moment to widen my eyes. What I once thought of as "the government" had, in the space of mere decades, become "the bureaucracy," even to someone who would consider joining it -- and, the worst of it was, I knew he was right. This was one genuine accomplishment of a quarter-century-plus of the Republican "revolution" (and the Clinton interregnum). All those presidential candidates, running as small-government outsiders ready to bring Washington big spenders to heel, had, on coming to power, only fed that government mercilessly, throwing untold numbers of tax dollars at the Pentagon and the military-industrial complex, ensuring that they would become ever more bloated, powerful, and labyrinthine, ever more focused on their own well-being, and ever less civic; ensuring that the government as a whole would be ever more "bureaucratic," ever less "ept," and -- always -- ever more oppressive, with ever more police-state-like powers.




All that had been strangled in the process -- made smaller, if you will -- was the federal government's ability to deliver actual services to the population that paid for it. All that was made smaller in the world beyond Washington was whatever residual faith existed that this was "your" government, that it actually represented you in any way. As the state's bureaucratic, military, and policing powers bloated, so, too, did the electoral process -- and lost as well was the belief that your vote could determine anything much at all.




Looking back, this was, in a sense, what 9/11 really meant in America. The one thing that a government, which had long reinforced its own powers, should have been able to deliver was intelligence and protection. So it wasn't, I suspect, just those towers that crumbled on that day. What also crumbled was a residual faith in "we, the people." This was actually what the Bush administration played on when it urged Americans not to mobilize for its Global War on Terror, but simply to go about their business, to -- as the President famously put it 16 days after 9/11 -- "get down to Disney World in Florida. Take your families and enjoy life, the way we want it to be enjoyed." In a sense, Bush and his top officials were just doing what came naturally -- further sidelining the American people so they could fight their private wars in peace (so to speak).




The "bureaucracy" had strangled the very idea of the "civic." Who would even think about entering such a world today as a "civic duty," rather than as a career move; or imagine Washington as "our" government; or that anyone inside the famed Beltway, or near the K-Street hive of lobbyists, or in Congress or the Oval Office would give a damn about you? This is why, at a deeper level, the Washington Consensus today has next to nothing to do with the American one.




American Disengagement




When people look back on the Vietnam era, few comment on how connected the size and vigor of demonstrations were to a conception of government in Washington as responsible to the American people. Even the youthful radicals of the time, in their outrage, still generally believed that Washington was not living up to some ideal they had absorbed in their younger years. Whatever they were denouncing, the founders of Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) in their Port Huron Statement, for instance, spoke without irony or discomfort of "[f]reedom and equality for each individual, government of, by, and for the people -- these American values we found good, principles by which we could live as men."




Though they may not have known it, they were still believers, after a fashion. By and large, the demonstrators of that moment not only believed that Washington should listen, but when, for instance, they chanted angrily, "Hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?", that President Lyndon Baines Johnson would be listening. (And, in fact, he was. He called it "that horrible song.") Which young people today would believe that in their gut? Who would believe such a thing of "the bureaucracy"?




Don't forget, demonstrating is another kind of civic duty -- but perhaps a waning one. I was struck this weekend that, even among people I know, many of whom had demonstrated in the Vietnam era and had turned out again in the early years of this war, next to none were on the streets this Saturday. Most were simply going about their business with other, better things to do.




The fact is: Attending a march like Saturday's is still, for me, something like an ingrained civic habit, like.... gulp.... voting, which I can't imagine not doing -- even when it has little meaning to me -- or keeping informed by reading a newspaper daily in print (something that, it seems, just about no one under 25 does any more). These are the habits of a lifetime and they don't disappear quickly. But when they're gone, or if they don't make it to the next generation intact, it's hard, if not impossible, to get them back.




If you need another point of comparison, consider TV comic Stephen Colbert's joke (or is it?) race for the presidency in his home state of South Carolina (or the fact that, in a Rasmussen Report telephone poll, he garnered 13% support in the Republican field just days after announcing his run). Again, I'm old enough to remember the last time something like this happened. Sometime in the late 1950s -- the details escape me -- a few fans of the cartoon strip Pogo decided to launch a "Pogo for President" campaign in election season. (Mind you, that strip, about a talking opossum and his pals in Okefenokee Swamp, was a classic with a critical, political edge. Who could forget the moment when Howland Owl and the turtle, Churchy LaFemme, decided to enter the nuclear age by creating uranium from a combination of a Yew tree and a geranium.) In the strip, Pogo did indeed run for president and its creator, Walt Kelly, used that hook to promote perfectly real voter-registration campaigns. But -- as I remember it -- he was horrified by the real-life campaign for his character and insisted that it be stopped. You didn't, after all, make a mockery of American democracy that way. It just wasn't funny.




No longer. Now, the "character" is launched onto the field of electoral play by the creator himself, who also happens to be promoting a book in need of publicity; and Colbert's ploy is hailed as a kind of transcendent reality, not simply a mockery of it, even on that most mainstream of Sunday yak shows, Tim Russert's Meet the Press. Of course, the joke -- and it's a grim one indeed -- is on what's left of American democracy, which, as Colbert obviously means to prove, is the real mockery of our moment.




Perhaps we all have to hope that, when he's done with the election, he'll turn his attention to demonstrations in a world increasingly uncongenial to "civic duty" of any sort. It seems that we've entered a time in which even demonstrating can be outsourced, privatized, left to the pros, or simply dismissed (like so much else) as hopeless, a waste of time. So I was heading toward this demonstration, wondering not why more people wouldn't be there, but why anyone would be.




Penned in on the Streets




And here's how it felt:



"From the moment I looked across the aisle in the subway and saw the woman with the upside-down, hand-painted sign -- an anguished face, blood, and 'no war' on it -- and she noted my sign, also resting against my knees but modestly turned away from view, and gave me the thumbs up sign, I knew things would be okay. As my wife, a friend, and I exited the subway at the 50th Street station on the west side of New York, I noted three college-age women bent over a subway bench magic-marking in messages on their blank sign boards, a signal that we were heading for some special do-it-yourself event."


Oops! Sorry, that was my description of the first moments of a massive antiwar march -- half a million or more people took part -- in New York City on February 15, 2003, just over a month before the invasion of Iraq was launched.




On my subway car Saturday, there were no obvious demonstrators carrying signs; no eager faces or hands ready to give a thumbs-up sign; no one who even looked like he or she was heading for a demonstration. (Of course, I had no handmade sign and didn't look that way either.)




A signature aspect of this era's antiwar demonstrations, from the first prewar giants on, has been the spontaneous, personal signage, often a literal sea of waving individual expressions of indignation, sardonic humor, hope, despair, absurdity, you name it.




On Saturday, most of the signs were printed and clearly organizationally inspired; not all, however, as the shots by Tam Turse, the young photojournalist who accompanied me, eloquently indicate.




As for the police, well, here's how it felt with them:



"They still had us more or less confined to the sidewalk and a bit of the street on one side of the avenue, and cars were still crawling by. But already demonstrators were moving the orange police cones quickly set up for this unexpected crowd on an unexpectedly occupied avenue ever farther out into the traffic. Soon, to relieve pressure, the police opened a side street and with a great cheer our section of the rolling non-march burst through up to Second [Avenue] where we found ourselves in an even greater mass of humanity, heading north on our own avenue without a single car, truck, or bus."


Uh-oh, my mistake again! That, too, was the February 15, 2003 demo. This time, I came out of the subway at 23rd Street and was promptly accosted by a confused young German woman, postcards clutched in one hand. She pointed at two blue mailboxes on the corner and asked, in charmingly accented English, how you put the cards in. "Oh," I said, "let me show you." And I promptly pulled on each mailbox handle, only to find them locked. The police had undoubtedly done this as an anti-terror measure. The woman was relieved, she told me, that she wasn't "mad." No, I assured her, it was the world that was mad, not her.




The rest of the march was, in essence, a police event, the demonstrators penned in by moveable metal barricades, "guarded" often by more police personnel than on-lookers. From the moment we began to march in the rain, the police presence was overwhelming, starting with a well-marked NYPD "Sky Watch" tower, a mobile tower that can be raised anywhere in which police observers can spy on you from behind a Darth Vader-style darkened window. In fact, we marchers were penned in by the police as we headed south for Foley Square, cut off, for instance, from the large cross street at 14th by a row of dismounted police using their motorcycles as a barricade. Police vehicles and police on foot moved slowly in front of the demonstration as well as behind it. Police even marched in the demonstration (though not as demonstrators). Essentially, it was, as all rallies and demonstrations now seem to be in our growing Homeland Security state-let, a police march.




Led by a sizeable contingent of soldiers, vets, and military families, there were perhaps 10,000 marchers -- a rare occasion when my own rough estimate fit the normal police undercount -- on a dreary, rainy day, which is no small thing. Each of them left his or her life for a few hours to take a walk (or, in the case of one elderly lady, to be wheeled, encased in plastic, or for two "grannies for peace" to be peddled in a volunteer pedicab) in mild discomfort, to chant, to call out, even in a few creative cases, to display feelings on individual placards or constructions or in group tableaux. Each of them, for his or her own reason, was civic, even global. Add up all the people who did this in 11 cities nationwide, and the numbers aren't unimpressive. But with unending war, as well as perpetual death and destruction on the Bush administration menu, with the horizon darkened by the possibility of a strike against Iran, and a population which has turned its back on most of the above, it was, nonetheless, clearly underwhelming.




Meanwhile, in Iraq on Saturday, according to news reports, it was just an ordinary day, the usual harvest of decomposing corpses, deadly roadside blasts, assassinations, kidnappings, U.S. raids, and, bizarrely, the breakfast poisoning of 100 Iraqi soldiers. One American death was announced on Saturday. We don't yet know who the soldier was, only that he died "when he sustained small arms fire while conducting operations in Salah ad Din [Province]." He could, of course, have come from New York City, but the odds are that he came from a small town somewhere in the American hinterlands, from perhaps Latta, South Carolina or Lone Pine, California.




He might, or might not, have ever visited Disney World. He might have joined the overstretched U.S. armed forces for the increasingly massive bonuses the military is now offering to bind the poor and futureless close in a war that has been rejected by the American people; or perhaps he simply signed on with some of that residual sense of civic duty that's fast fleeing the land; or, possibly, both of the above. Perhaps, if he hadn't died, he would, like 12 former captains who recently wrote "The Real Iraq We Knew" for the Washington Post op-ed page and called our "best option… to leave Iraq immediately," have returned to speak out against the war. Who knows. Already, for 3,839 Americans in Iraq and 451 Americans in Afghanistan, we will never have a way of knowing.

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See more stories tagged with: iraq, vietnam, protest

Tom Engelhardt, who runs the Nation Institute's Tomdispatch.com, is the co-founder of the American Empire Project. His book, The End of Victory Culture (University of Massachusetts Press), has just been thoroughly updated in a newly issued edition that deals with victory culture's crash-and-burn sequel in Iraq.

Tam Turse is a photojournalist working in New York City. Her photos of the demonstration discussed in this piece can be viewed by clicking here.

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Beat me too, Tom
Posted by: yankabroad on Oct 30, 2007 12:45 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tom, Duh, I dunno.

It's a mystery why there wouldn't be at least a few million Americans willing to take to the streets, especially considering 30-40% strongly oppose the war.

It's a mystery, but then so are a lot of things.

What isn't so much a mystery is the direction in which Amerika is headed------------DOWN!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» Re-instate the DRAFT Posted by: BKLN
» RE: e-instate the DRAFT Posted by: outlander55
» 57yrold steve (no longer middle of the road) Posted by: middle of the road
» Meanwhile In Little Rock Posted by: Artkansas
» RE: Beat me too, Tom Posted by: donl51
» RE: Beat me too, Tom Posted by: blitzmesser
YES AND THIS!!
Posted by: Rshaw on Oct 30, 2007 12:50 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes and with this apathy we also need to deal with this: "Bush heats up words with Iran and Russia"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x33aVxueXgg

We better get active!

[« Reply to this comment] [Post a new comment »] [Rate this comment: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5]

» RE: That's right Pammy-Troll Posted by: boydranchitos
Give up all hope
Posted by: Kmuzu on Oct 30, 2007 1:53 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bush is at a 18 percent approval rating. The Recans are begging him to get out of Iraq. It doesn't matter to him. He's like a crazed monkey with a gun.

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» RE: Give up all hope Posted by: yankabroad
What does gathering together with a couple thousand
Posted by: owlbear1 on Oct 30, 2007 3:38 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
people and waving signs accomplish?

All these "Where are all the protesters?" "Why aren't they running around on the streets?" "Why aren't they waving signs?" stories never talk about what ANY of that accomplishes.

Where are they? Using much more effective tools than a cardboard sign on the corner of 1st and main...

Now if you want to take about a protest march that burns down a Republican HQ office then we might get somewhere...

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the protesters are here
Posted by: SekhmetsatRa on Oct 30, 2007 3:46 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
they are in columbus ohio at e. n. broadway and high.... not as glam as new yuck, but there are protesters.

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Different impact
Posted by: brunowe on Oct 30, 2007 3:48 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's no draft, so whole socio-economic sectors of the population aren't affected this time around. Further, although the war is a moral and strategic disaster, the US still isn't taking nearly as many losses as it did during Vietnam.

I think one can also ask the question re how effective were the protests against the war in Vietnam? Did they end it or was the factor the failure of US forces in the field to successfully pursue a counter-insurgency war. Although Tet was a huge military defeat for the VC/NVA forces, the fact that they were able to launch it after years of the US government talking about "the light at the end of the tunnel" put the emphasis on the lack of progress.

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The protests exist, the media doesn't cover them.
Posted by: Sweeet Pea on Oct 30, 2007 5:02 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I marched on April 29, 2006 with a whole f*cking mess of fellow Americans who've just about had it.

What's a whole f*cking mess, you ask? Well, the organizers said 350k. The police, crafty little f*ckers that they are, didn't give an estimate. Brilliant, really. Because what do you do? You take the organizers number and the police number and you get yourself a nice little average. Fine. Let's say police said ZERO. Half of 350 is 175. According to the press it was "tens of thousands". That's not "tens of thousands" that's HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS! AT LEAST one hundred and seventy five thousand people took to the streets in Manhattan. That is THREE TIMES the capacity of Giants Stadium.

I felt like I was in the twilight zone when I found out it was BURIED on page THIRTY-SEVEN of the Sunday NY Times. 37. Tens of thousands.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10704049/

Here's a lukewarm msnbc article on it, but look at the picture! That stretched for forty blocks. For three or four hours.

So the question ISN'T where are the protesters, the question is: why bother?

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It's probably too late for activism
Posted by: LMNOP on Oct 30, 2007 5:05 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For more that two years, I've been reading articles here on AlterNet and elsewhere warning Americans that if we don't rise up soon, there's trouble ahead. We are warned that the democracy and all of our most cherished principles are at stake, and there has been no response from America. This article asks why.

Perhaps those who are willing to protest, a shrinking number, are recognizing that we're well beyond the stage where protest can be effective. It requires a democracy.

There comes a time in the evolution of a republic into a dictatorship when the democratic processes that defined it as a republic are no longer effective, processes such as voting, campaigning, letter-writing, protesting, referenda generation and the like. Obviously, none of those activities would have had any power in Hitler's Germany or Marcos' Philippines. When that time comes, the republic is gone and cannot recovered democratically. Many of us believe that America is there now.

There hasn't been an "if we - then they" threat to democracy since well before the 2006 election. Clearly, democracy was already dead in America by that time. We had had three consecutive tainted elections already in 2000, 2002, and 2004, all with losers assuming office. Many believe that the last honest national election was in the twentieth century.

How do I know democracy is dead? Define it, then consider this: In 2006, the voters sent Congress and the president a mandate to begin ending their war. They laughed. Congress took impeachment off of the table and approved Bush's war budget without benchmarks, goals or timelines. Bush escalated the war.

Another poster elsewhere on this site noted, "We've been out on the streets, tasered, put in the jails, blacklisted by Homeland Security, given federal prison sentences for non-violent protest, and organized until we're exhausted, but nothing changes"

I believe that it's too late for activism.

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» Well said Posted by: LeeAnnG
» RE: Yes, but not all Americans Posted by: progressivetype
» RE: Yes,but...forgot to add Posted by: progressivetype
There are no shared...
Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Oct 30, 2007 5:06 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...sacrifices like in WWII or Viet Nam. Most of us do not have an immediate vested interest in what is going on and paid little attention.

The war criminals in the white house just sent out the storm troopers when protests occurred, let them blow off some steam, ignore them, and then let Faux News et al. demonize them.

I guarantee if there was a draft, there would be violence and death in the streets as in Viet Nam and people would pay attention (we love violence).

In addition, you cannot get close to the Shrub when he gives one of his contrived, unannounced, speeches, surrounded by dittoheads.

Protests just will not work anymore unless the people there are REALLY angry because they have kids being killed or sent to be killed and maimed.

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still hopeful
Posted by: boardsailor on Oct 30, 2007 5:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Last Saturday in Smithfield, NC the Stop Torture Flights group held a protest against rendition/torture and AERO Contractors, the company based at the Johnston County airport that has been involved with the CIA and its rendition flights. AERO Contractors has been implicated in more than one instance of involvement with such actions.

While we began to set up for the march/rally in the park the Gathering of Eagles and Rolling Thunder arrived to counter protest in the streets nearby. Their message was that by opposing torture and the war somehow we hate the troops & America, and various other nonsensical conjectures. During the period before the march began a couple of their group actually got into conversations with some of the Peacekeepers (people expressly there to maintain a space between the two groups and prevent violent interactions) and also with some anti Torture protesters. Later at the AERO Contractors site there were again dialog exchanges that ended in handshakes between the two opposing sides.

During the march some counter protesters stood on benches and around the Veterans memorial supposedly to "protect" it from the anti torture group. They were quite vile and vulgar in remarks to the "moonbats" (their term of "endearment for the protesters) that marched past. Hope for ending torture/renditions and finding some resolve is not dead but civility was certainly strained. I don't deny their passion but I'll bet their mammas tried to teach them better manners when they were kids. What came from it all at the end of the day was people from both sides of the issue remarking that they were surprised at the dialogs that had occurred and were hopeful that more could follow.

I'd also like to point out that not all the veterans in attendance were with the Gathering of Eagles/Rolling Thunder group. Several members of Veterans For Peace and Iraqi Veterans Against War were also in attendance with the Stop Torture rally. We are definitely not anti troop/military but we are opposed to the misguided policies of this Bush administration that have put our troops in harm's way. We are not all "roll over pacifists" nor in complete denial of terrorists but we think the obvious mishandling of this war in Iraq has helped to create more terrorists and sympathizers for them than it has eliminated. Any real grunt can tell you that war is not a good solution - never was nor will be. Pre-emptive PEACE and pre-emptive diplomacy works better. Look at the Special Forces "hearts and minds" policy. Think of how many innocent Iraqi civilians have been killed, wounded and displaced since we "liberated" them. I'm fairly certain they don't appreciate Bush's "spreading democracy" into their lives right now. Such a shame that a few individuals can create so much heartache for so many - on both sides of the issues.

Special THANKS! to the Smithfield police and the town of Smithfield for allowing our rally. It was a special day for America that both sides could come together and express their views in such relative peace. It was somehow ironic considering the Civil War and racist history of Smithfield/Johnston County that Brothers-in-Arms would stand in opposition there yet this time walk away with a glimmer of hope and understanding.

Stop Torture Now - don't just re-define it! This from a USAF veteran, 66-71, Veteran for Peace.

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» RE: still hopeful Posted by: progressivetype
Are you kidding?
Posted by: bashaurette on Oct 30, 2007 5:27 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I spent the year before the war started, and the next two years after, in the streets almost every weekend. It took me that long to realize that all the marching and sign-waving accomplishes next to nothing. In fact, in the city where I live, most of the protests take on a party atmosphere. There are a lot of important messages spread at every protest, but to an already sympathetic audience - the people who really need to hear those words of protest aren't paying attention anyway. And sure, it feels good to be out there blowing off steam and expressing your anger about the war in the company of fellow protestors ... but after a while that starts to feel really self-indulgent. I'd rather spend my time effectively, working on campaigns, voter registration, spreading news and working on changing the opinions of the people I *can* influence - my family, friends, and the people I meet every day.

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» RE: Are you kidding? Posted by: drmflorida
Why aren't the protests raging? Nobody is being drafted...YET!
Posted by: Farasien on Oct 30, 2007 5:34 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The main problem with the antiwar movement at the moment is, unlike in the Vietnam era, nobody is being pulled from their homes and lives by force. Only the deluded, stupid and psychopathic contingents of society are going at the moment, but if certain assholes in both parties currently occupying Washington have their way, this will soon change. When it becomes a fact of life that kids are going to go to war against people the banking elite decide have to die for their profits weather or not they choose to, the glory days of protests and riots will begin again. Until that happens, we'll languish in the herd mentality with the collective opinion that while 'dude, the war, like, um... sucks?' nobody is going to be the one to stand up and give the Washinton Elites the stiff middle finger they all so richly deserve. I weep for our future... if we even have one anymore at this point.

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Some reasons
Posted by: hagwind on Oct 30, 2007 5:38 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There's no draft, so fewer people feel directly threatened.

Take a close look at how many hours we're working to pay the basic bills, and how many hours are left over to take on a volunteer organizing project. (Those huge demonstrations of the late 1960s and 1970s were not spontaneous outpourings.)

Take a close look at the cost of college, and how many hours go into paying for that, and how many students are focused on training for the kind of jobs that will repay those loans.

For the last twenty-five years or so, less and less of many of our lives takes place in public. Instead of going to the movies, we rent a film and watch it at home, alone or with friends. The price of theater, concert, and professional sports tickets is so high that most of us can't buy them regularly, even on the local level. The Internet -- well, that's a subject in itself. Much has been made of what a great organizing tool it is -- and it is a great organizing tool -- but it's also got huge limitations. It's better at encouraging people to talk than at encouraging people to listen -- or to speak more clearly, or in ways that a variety of people are likely to hear. There's a lot more to organizing than clicking a contribution to the cause of your choice and forwarding a mass mailing to 50 of your "friends."

Having come of political age in the late 1960s, I think public demonstrations are tremendously important. They're tremendously energizing -- the most important part of a big demo is what happens after you get home -- and they show us to ourselves. But they don't happen spontaneously.

Small demos happen occasionally where I live, but I rarely go to them. They don't build energy; they drain it. The organizers think that earnest haranguing is the main point of the demo, and they still haven't figured out that you don't position the stage so the listeners have the sun in their eyes. Demos, small or large, are like revival meetings. Hell, they are revival meetings. The preaching should inspire, not depress. Music sure doesn't hurt either.

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» RE: Some reasons Posted by: Turkiye
» RE: Some reasons Posted by: VannaLaRoche
Because computer commando-ing SEEMS to get more done a lot quicker
Posted by: xbj on Oct 30, 2007 5:53 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Millions of people in the street... MSM ignores or downplays it... seems to have no effect whatsoever.

ONE post on ONE blog with the right damning and deadly accurate information... spreads like wildfire, and heads roll, eventually. Infinitely easier to reach tipping point on the net quicker.

New times and fascist regimes require new tactics, and the internet is the new street. Crowds there get noticed and responded to.

The only march, sadly, at this point, that will get any results is one with torches, pitchforks, coils of rope and piano wire, and every weapon someone can carry. And battering rams.

Because Gandhi-MLK style peaceful protest is not only marginalized, it is completely and utterly ignored.

In the 60's and 70's it was different; the MSM wasn't on the take and wasn't complicit and actually reported the news accurately.

No more. We live in a totalitarian regime, with only the merest appearance of a democracy. An impotent dying republic.

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Taking It To The Streets in O'Town and Getting Sen. Mike Gravel's Irish UP!!!
Posted by: wawa on Oct 30, 2007 5:56 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[Orlando, Fl. October 27, 2007] As a veteran of justice and peace marches, my estimate is that 3,000 concerned justice and peace patriotic Americans and 50 counter demonstrators took it to the streets of Orlando on a humid overcast Saturday.

A comrade from the US Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation and a member of the Steering Committee of United for Peace and Justice, Omar Masri, American Lebanese, kicked off the happening and roused the crowd, "I f-----g believe in peace! 70% of Americans say NO more occupation of Iraq, bring back the troops! Power to the people and we will not be silent! End the occupation now!"

Senator [ 1969-1980] Mike Gravel admitted on stage, "You bet I am angry! If you have a heart you would be angry too!...It boggles the mind how one human being can kill and dismember another's body and Congress sits in their air conditioned office and says it's just Foreign Policy [when] its murder!

...This reporter caught the last twenty minutes of Sen. Gravel's local radio interview and got in his face and said, "I will not be silenced either and I noted how you cited America, Britain, France and Japan as the major players in weapons of destruction, but why didn't you mention Israel, the third largest exporter of weapons of destruction?

"Why don't you talk about how forty years ago the USS LIBERTY was targeted and our sailors were cold bloodily murdered by Israel and the survivors were told to shut up by our government, threatened with court-martial and worse?

"What about Vanunu who has been told to shut up by the government of Israel?"

Gravel got red in the face and his Irish was most certainly up as he responded, "What do you want me to do about it?"

My Irish was up too and I retorted, "I want you to do something! Talk about it!"

Immediately, Gravel's handlers whisked him away for his photo op and one of his boys asked me for my card and tried to silence me by stating, "A representative will be in touch."

This reporter is not holding her breath and will not be silenced or give up in the pursuit of taking back America by we the people for I "hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights; that, among these, are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; that, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; and, whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it." -July 4, 1776. The Declaration of Independence

"The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion."-Tom Paine

On with that revolution!

DO SOMETHING:

Create a Gov. BY WE THE PEOPLE:
http://www.ni4d.us/


Full report WAWA blog Oct. 28
http://www.wearewideawake.org/

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Different strategy needed
Posted by: Constitutionalist75 on Oct 30, 2007 6:02 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All the news media are owned and operated by big corporations, so of course they ignore demonstrations that go against their business interests like the New American Century of World domination for ever-expanding markets and ever-growing populations of low-wage workers. They would rather die rich on a dead planet than be moderately prosperous on a living biosphere.

So, what can be done to stop such a global monster? Stop feeding it. Promote family planning clinics to reduce the human population and establish regional and continental networks of eco-tech villages that grow their own food, make their own clothing, educate their own children and trade with each other for mutual benefit with harm to none, while surrounding themselves with miles of healthy wilderness. Is it possible? Is life on Earth worth saving?

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Where are they?
Posted by: Serafim Tkachuk on Oct 30, 2007 6:10 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
They're where you are, and where I am: sitting at home in front of the Internet.

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» RE: Where are they? Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: Where are they? Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» Sadly, but true Posted by: StPeteRican
Choosing your protest
Posted by: anothername on Oct 30, 2007 6:10 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Englehardt rambles in his essay so I am not sure if he is concerned most about the lack of protests or about what he sees as a general decline in civic duty. No doubt there is some correlation between civic duty and protests, but I am not sure it is a direct correlation.

I have heard the argument that we are not protesting because we do not have a draft. I am not sure how much that plays into the lack of massive marches. Much of the one-on-one objections I hear to the war are the financial costs, but the United States does not have a strong history of economic protest marches.

There is also the role of the news media. Before the invasion, when there was still opposition to be heard from Washington, I listened to reporter after reporter opine that once the president made his decision the American people would all be behind him. I was furious and objected to the editors of those reporters. Historically that automatic support might have been true, and it turned out to be the case in 2003, but I still wonder how much of the early post-invasion support came because the news media told the people they were going to support the president.

The media role, enforced by the White House, continues. We do not see flag-draped coffins. We do not see soldiers screaming in pain on a battlefield with their limbs blown off. We see, instead, the happy homecomings of National Guard troops and the sadness of departure of Army Resrves.

Then there is also the simple reality that economics of personal existence in 2007 is much more time consuming than it was in 1968. I also know people who are hesitant about participating in protests, particularly if there is a possibility of arrest, because of how it would look on college and job applications.

I have participated in protests over the years, but I personally do not choose to participate in many. Nevertheless, I find myself inspired, motivated, encouraged when I see large rallies and marches. Unfortunately, a recent protest march with mock coffins drew slightly more than 100 people, surprisingly including the mayor, but he is running for re-election. It received very little news coverage. However, the next day the news media reported 1,200 people gathered in a local church to protest against gay marriages. This would suggest that protests are still important to Americans, it is only a matter of choosing the right issue.

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Hmm...
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Oct 30, 2007 6:24 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.. could have something to do with the tepid kind of protest we see now with its total eschewing of "violence" against property and objects.. not just people, which is something to eschew.. and an unwillingness to actually disrupt ANYTHING and to try to discredit those who do paired with the fact that the tepid protests of "please please please listen to us, please.. or we'll come back late and ask you politely again" simply haven't worked at all because this administration does not give a shit about what the people of this nation or even the entire world think or want.

Bush ignored the largest worldwide protests in history... and you think he is going to listen to the mealy mouthed crap coming out of most of the anti-war movement? Hell... even Democrats don't REALLY want to do anything for you... they just want to trick you into voting for them, make a few noises of protest... and then cowtow to the administration completely.

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» But.. yknow... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
bring back the draft--and stop yakking about impeachment
Posted by: zooeyhall on Oct 30, 2007 6:37 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Like some other posters on this article, I feel that the reason we don't have active protests against the war is because there is no draft.

If we had a draft, with NO exemptions, things would change in a BIG hurry. Especially for the "Lexus Liberals" in the upper class suburbs--if they knew that there was a chance that their precious Johnny (or Jane's) ass was in line to get pulled out of college and sent to Iraq to get shot off.

Under the current system, it is the sons and daughters of the trailer parks and rural areas (I know because I live in rural Nebraska) and that checker at Walmart who enlist and submit to the brutal training and then go off to war. This suits certain elements on both right AND the left just fine!

And another thing--stop all this noise about impeachment. I mean, really, what are the chances of Bush getting impeached? About a snowball's chance in hell, that's what! This is just pointless sputtering by some of my fellow progressives. A waste of time and energy that only serves to marginalize us. Instead, let's put our energies into the things I mentioned above and get some real change.

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» Not again Posted by: BTDT
Blame Bush for the lack of protests
Posted by: rockmanac on Oct 30, 2007 6:43 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The problem is not people not wanting to protest, it's that with all of Bush's new laws he's been able to threaten to and/or throw everyone who would protest in jail...or at least make life really, really miserable for them.

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» Happens everyday Posted by: BTDT
There Is Really A Simple Answer
Posted by: johntrileytee on Oct 30, 2007 6:45 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the draft is instituted like it was during Vietnam, not only would we see thousands of protesters, but we would see a quick end to this immoral war.

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» Is There Really A Simple Answer??? Posted by: Constitutionalist75
We protest weekly
Posted by: thought-crime on Oct 30, 2007 6:47 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Our group protests against the war WEEKLY in front of the Texas State Capitol. Every Saturday, rain or shine, we gather from 11 AM - 3 PM and say, "NO MORE!" We even provide signs and handouts for people willing to join our group. We also provide documentary DVD's. Yet, for as many so-called Patriots in Austin, we don't draw a very large crowd. I think this is mainly because people have the comfort of their living rooms, dens or bedrooms in which to blog or pass on myspace bulletins, making themselves feel like they are helping in some way. People need to take to the streets in the MILLIONS. We need to do it now before the fascist grasp of the coming dictatorship destroys the Republic we all take for granted.

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» RE: We protest weekly Posted by: VannaLaRoche
I am protesting with my money
Posted by: DrSuess on Oct 30, 2007 6:58 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Right now I am moving all the money I have out of the country and away from the US dollar. Bush has made it illegal to protest on the streets, and he will not listen to us when we try and protest peacefully, so the only thing left to do is vote with our dollars. Money is the only thing Bush respects anyway.

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That's my story
Posted by: ladyoracle on Oct 30, 2007 7:10 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When Bush first threatened to move from Afganistan into Iraq, I at age 22-3 mobilized along with the very vibrant counterculture in Tampa, FL. We made signs and demonstrated, and in January, 2003 I joined one of three tour buses from FL to D.C. to march against the war--before it started. There were famous leftist speakers and upward of 500K protesters. It was the weekend, and the streets were totally deserted. Except for us, and I felt like I was doing my duty as a citizen.

Then Bush invaded Iraq anyway, and I signed petitions, wrote letters, listened to Pacifica Radio, and and even sent antiwar groups what money I could.

And nothing changed. By the time the political tide shifted last year and the popular consensus was against the war, I hated that popular mass so much I didn't even care whose side they were on.

Yes, I do not vocalize against the war anymore. I still sign the online petitions, worthless though I know them to be, and that's about it. I spoke loudly and with conviction, and my government and fellow citizens called me a terrorist sympathizer. Believe me, I have learned my place. I'm only 28, but I already understand as I never had before how people went from hippie to yuppie.

But being so anti-American, I will fit in better somewhere else. My boyfriend and I plan to move to Malaysia next year and try something different. Ex-patriotism is my last reserve. Jump the stinking, sinking ship.

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» Enjoy the oppression Posted by: BTDT
HO HUM, SAME OLD STUFF
Posted by: Constitutionalist75 on Oct 30, 2007 7:42 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sophisticated creature comforts and electronic entertainments have corrupted the people so we blather on and on but do nothing to change the system that feeds us and keeps us amused. To establish a network of eco-tech villages that grow their own food, make their own clothing, educate their own children and surround themselves with miles of healthy wilderness WOULD CHANGE THE SYSTEM, but it's just too much hard work and would cost every dollar we have! Nevermind, what's on the Discovery channel, or National Geographics? We only watch shows and buy products that are environmentally sensitive! That way in a hundred years or so, everything will work out just fine, no problem ( ! )

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A small part of the problem lies with the organizers of the protests
Posted by: Ellie1 on Oct 30, 2007 7:57 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I participated in (what I thought was) an anti-war protest in Washington, D.C.-first time. The protest started almost two hours late, and we stood around listening to endless speeches by all kinds of causes. Also people thrusted pamphlets at me for all kinds of causes-including the American Communist Party, socialists, and every candidate running for president, no matter how obscure, including Lyndon LaRouche and Ron Paul.

And I agree with the post about the media-it has been obtained and muzzled by those in power. Large protests are ignored by media, and if it isn't on TV, it never happened. Part of the Bush plan to keep the American public uninformed and ignorant. And most people are too lazy or don't have the time to search for things.

No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence (and gumption) of the American public. And Bushit knows it. His followers are prime examples of it.

How I despise this administration.

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» Wow, Bush Plan Posted by: BTDT
New anti-war film 'Ahlaam'
Posted by: iwan239 on Oct 30, 2007 8:06 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Although not totally related to your current post, I just wanted to let you know of a ground breaking new anti-war film that is opening this weekend in London and will continue screening in numerous other venues in the near future.

We need all the help we can to get this film out there and seen.




IRAQ 'S POST-SADDAM FEATURE AHLAAM TO BE RELEASED IN CINEMAS ACROSS THE UK FROM 2ND NOVEMBER 2007.

AHLAAM (Dream, Mohamed Al-Daradji, UK/Iraq/Netherlands, 2006)

Based on true stories, Ahlaam takes us on an incredible journey, following two psychiatric patients, who escape from their mental institution in Baghdad, and a young doctor on the night US forces start their 'shock and awe' campaign to "liberate" Iraq from Saddam Hussein's totalitarian regime.

Ahlaam is Iraq's second post-Saddam feature to hit the big screen. Al-Daradji's debut feature was filmed under highly unstable conditions, with cast and crew encountering not only all kinds of technical restrictions, but being exposed to shooting, abductions, torture and imprisonment, both by insurgents and the American forces.

After attending over 75 festivals around the world and winning many respected awards, the film was selected for consideration for Best Foreign Language Film at the Academy Awards 2007 and screened to an attentive audience at the BAFTA .

For security reasons, Al-Daradji had been unable to screen the film in Baghdad. His dream to show it to his own people came true last April, with a screening at the National Theatre to over one thousand people, including cast and crew, members of Iraq's beleaguered artistic community and government officials. They braved fears of terror attacks to attend and midway through the showing, a rumour that a minibus with explosives had been parked nearby swept the theatre. Luckily it was a false alarm. On the day of the screening, over 200 people were killed in Baghdad by insurgent attacks.

Ahlaam will be screened in much safer circumstances in the UK starting from Friday 2 November at the ICA London when a special Q&A will be held. Film is being released through Human Film and will tour around the country.

Other screenings…

HAWKHURST
KINO
7
02-Nov-07






BRADFORD
PICTUREVILLE
7
23-Nov-07

CHICHESTER
NEW PARK
2
01-Dec-07

ABERYSTWYTH
ARTS CENTRE
3
08-Dec-07

INVERNESS
EDEN COURT
2
20-Feb-08


Edinburgh Filmhouse – Edinburgh for 4 days from 7th December with Q&A


For further information on Ahlaam, please visit www.ahlaamthemovie.com or www.humanfilm.co.uk www.myspace.com/ahlaamthemovie or to view the trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN7wAgQlsbk

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Amerika is headed toward the abyss
Posted by: outlander55 on Oct 30, 2007 8:07 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And not many people seem to care. Too many Americans are too willing to believe the crap coming out of the corporate media. I did not see any news reports of the October 27 protests on ABC, NBC, CBS, or CNN. Besides, most of them would rather watch The Simpsons and Family Guy than watch a news report. The NFL is more of a concern than any war we may be involved in. When I have asked people if they saw the news, they say, "It is too depressing" or "No, I was watching the game".
If there was a draft, and young men had to postpone their college partying to go to war, you can bet that there would be more protests. But, as long as they don't have to serve, they will go on partying and be oblivious to the reality of the world.

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Use Your Head
Posted by: NoPCZone on Oct 30, 2007 8:18 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We live in very different country today An 18 year old cannot buy a beer, lighting up in public can get you in trouble with the law, joining a union is the quickest way to the unemployment line and private firms collect data on you and sell it to the government. That's why there are no huge protests.

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The Draft, Civil Rights, and LSD
Posted by: meetmeineleusis on Oct 30, 2007 8:20 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
are all missing.

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Civic Duty
Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Oct 30, 2007 8:26 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is not enough just to oppose the war. One has to be able to understand the reasons to oppose it... in order to get through to someone like a neocon. I guarantee that the war would be over if every single person opposed to the war knew how to debate all of these points:

1. The issue of legality. The war is illegal and unconstitutional. Neocons start squirming when they try to challenge that. They say things like "the constitution is archaic or anachronistic" (It's just a G~D piece of paper lol.) Some neocons will actually come apart at the seams just trying to defend their own position on this issue. Because it's indefensible.

2. The coalition casualties. Closer to 15,000 than to 5,000. Plus all the gruesome dismemberings and all those in near-vegatative states. They may make for good Bush voters but they don't deserve to be swept under the rug. And that's what you're doing every time you quote that ridiculous figure ... what is it, 3800?

3. The Iraqi casualties. They are much higher than is being reported. This is a huge topic for debate, but try to stick with common sense. Discuss the common sense of the methodology behind all the studies and surveys. Which makes more sense, counting the bodies that come into the morgue? Or counting according to a strict guideline that has been in place for decades? Even in extreme cases such as genocide. Learn this methodology and know what makes it superior to counting bodies lying on the side of the road or in the hospital.

4. Genocide. Know the history of it. Most genocide is not committed on purpose. (At least not according to the will of the citizens of the country committing the genocide.) Even Nazi Germany was not genocidal, according to the hearts and minds of the people there. But nonetheless they were responsible, and they were punished for it. So too will americans be. Look at the value of the dollar.

5. DU. They may have been able to get away with calling it a conspiracy theory. But they've been doing that for 10 years. Now with 500,000 disabled Gulf War I vets it is time to realize that this cannot be swept under the rug. You cant oppose the war and then not use this as a talking point. So keep up with the latest buried DU headlines. Try to lure them into saying it was Saddam that was responsible for all these disabled vets. That puts them in a very weak position.

6. The draft. There must be a draft to end the war. There are many families who hate the war and have a lot of wealth and would actually speak out if it affected them in a negative way. (Right now they're most likely making a killing off the war via the military-industrial complex. But that is a whole nother issue...)

7. Blackwater and the mercs. They have to go. There can't be a need for a draft when Bush has unlimited funds to hire expensive mercenaries.

8. Armies of illegals! It must be made illegal to recruit non-US citizens for the military. That's just utterly despicable. It creates problems clearly meant to be solved by a draft.

9. Support the troops! Give up your firstborn! It's so sad that congresscritters are still getting attacked for "not supporting the troops" if they vote against one of those behemoth spending bills. Even though that money (most of it) does not really go to the troops in any way shape or form. It's nothing more than a lie. Guess what, it's always going to be this way until people wise up to it. If one must be labeled as a troop basher then so be it. This is like the #2 attack right behind attacking someone's patriotism. That can only work against someone who doesn't know what they believe. So make sure you know what it means to be a patriot, and what it means to support the troops.

10. War tax. Huge wide open area for discussion. Of course they'd actually have to declare war before they could have a war tax, but hey?

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Don't expect the college students...
Posted by: StPeteRican on Oct 30, 2007 8:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
to show up at any marches. I asked my college student neighbors what they thought of this war and all that's happening, three of them. They think it's awful, yes, but they have jobs, school, student loans, car payments, parties, girlfriends, football to watch, etc., etc. In other words our college kids today have a lot more on their plates than just a "little" war to keep their minds busy. At a local anti-war rally, I was the youngest person, 43 years old.

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» Atteeeen....SHUN!!!!! Posted by: zooeyhall
Why protest, when most people already oppose the war?
Posted by: SufiLizard on Oct 30, 2007 9:07 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think the work that needs to be done now is connecting the dots for the millions of people who don't really pay attention.

We've been effective in eliminating support for the war from the majority of the people. That's a success!!

Now in order to get change, we need to have another success in getting that same majority to understand who is responsible for that war and who will end it.

I bet we'd all be surprised at the number of people who honestly believe that voting for their Republican candidates is the right thing to do to stop this occupation and prevent future wars.

You and I know that's utterly false, but how do we get them to realize it? And how do we get Democrats to realize that quite a few of their candidates will ALSO continue the occupation and perhaps even continue with hostilities against Iran?

You can't be against the Iraq occupation, and against invading Iran and be a Hillary supporter.... but it seems that actually you can.

The time for protest is over, we've won that battle. Now we need to educate and get people to follow-through at the polls.

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COVERAGE OF PROTESTS HIDDEN IN WI
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Oct 30, 2007 9:13 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I live in Wausau WI.
The two local stations:
WSAW TV & WAOW did not have anything about the protests on Saturday or any following days.
If you go to each website, you'll find their "top stories".
In comparisson to the protests, one of them had as its top story, "REMEMBERING THE ANNIVERSARY OF THE GREAT PACKERS TEAMS".
WTF??!!
The other one had some other really important crap if you've been in the dark or are a fixed noise fool.

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The Disgruntled Pacifist
Posted by: LouisFallert on Oct 30, 2007 9:18 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Disgruntled Pacifist (not known) 1960's

I am a good old pacifist; I think the world’s diseased
The sooner you all kill yourselves, the sooner I’ll be pleased.
I don’t like racial prejudice in any shape at all
Oh Yankee Russian, White or Tan, I hate you one and all.

I’ve walked for peace and sung for peace and been hit on the head
I’ve been thrown in jail without no bail and called a God-damned Red
Now I’m living in a cave that’s stocked pretty well
And all you damned warmongers; you all can go to hell!

I’ve worn my fingers to the bone signing pleas for peace
I’ve carried signs to ban the bomb and run from the police
Then I took a look around and suddenly realized
There isn’t one of you S.O.B.s that ought to be alive.

(Chorus)

I do not like the Russians with all their cutthroat band.
And for the great United States I do not give a damn.
Soon will come the mighty flash that brightens up the night.
I’ll slap my knees and say with glee “It serves you bastards right.”

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» RE: Thanks for Posted by: boydranchitos
» RE: Thanks for Posted by: LouisFallert
WHAT ONE LOCAL ABC STATION SAID
Posted by: AMERICAN VETERAN on Oct 30, 2007 9:34 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In my previous post, I showed that the local yokels have their own simpleminded priorities.
Here is an email exchange with one of these, er, "news" people(haha):

1st attempt:
" We watched and waited and watched and waited.
Not only do you not prove yourself to be a legitimate news source by acknowledging something THE ABC NETWORK acknowledges, you do not even reply to a Wausau resident who alerts you to important national events.
Are you ordered to NOT show anything against the cheney/bush regime by your neocon higher ups??
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The reply:
"I apologize for not getting back to you, but was your first e-mail addressed specifically to me?

I don't remember receiving anything from you in the past week or so.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I really don't know what you are talking about.

Randy Winter

Director of News & Operations

WAOW/WYOW Television, Inc.
(715) 842-2251
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Did you notice the statement:
"I really don't know what you are talking about."

ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!!
THIS IS A "NEWS DIRECTOR"??!!

Next exchange:
"Your initial e-mail was caught in a junk mail system. Since it was caught sometime on Friday, I was not able to retrieve it until Monday morning.
That's the problem with e-mail, in that sometimes it gets caught in these filters, especially when it includes links to websites.
Randy Winter
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
OK, so I re-sent it and said/asked, "No comment?"
Here's his reply to THAT:
"What's the point? You obviously feel that you are right, and no matter what I write will change that.
Randy Winter
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My last and, ignored EMAIL"
"Since you seem ready to exhibit and attitude, let us see whether you have
the ability to explore my INITIAL INQUIRY which was why WAIW did NOT allow
the NATION WIDE anti-war demonstrations to be shown in their news clips.
THAT, Mr. Winter was my ORIGINAL QUESTION.
Now, if you care to withdraw your finger and reply to that~~~~"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
No question about why things of national importance are kept from those who do not have the motivation to KNOW what is going on in the world around them.
And, this guy is from an ABC station and, the ABC site DID have a story & pics about the protests.

Of course, this is in a place, Wausau, which actually believes that the trees turn green & yellow because of the green bay pukers.

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It's too late
Posted by: sre on Oct 30, 2007 9:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I remember the days of Richard Nixon as president. He wasn't half as bad a guy as Bush, yet he was quickly shepherded out of office for what he did. Bush has committed far greater crimes, yet he's still there. The politicians in this country are all self-serving idiots. They will do nothing that isn't in their own self-interest. Isn't it time for a different solution?
But the people are indifferent or apathetic. The only real protest seems to be on the internet on forums like this. Even the forum posters go no farther than talk or writing. The rest seem to follow the Judas goat to the slaughter. And the band plays on...

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tired of marching
Posted by: cannmerk on Oct 30, 2007 9:54 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can only speak for myself as to why i don't find myself out in the streets anymore. I've been protesting since Iraq was first mentioned by our government. I've been to dozens of protests all over the country and saw time and time again that for one, they were never accurately covered. and two, we all went home after every protest cold, tired, and feeling more hopeless then before. great. we spent months planning this march, only to have a couple hundred people show up, wave their signs and yell stuff, and then go home feeling like they accomplished something that day. Yes, it was good to feel empowered and connect with other people that feel the same way. but i think that after years of protesting and yelling, writing letters and making signs, i'm tired of not being heard. i'm tired of the splintered left that can't even agree on one date to hold the march. I'm tired of our whole system of government that isn't about the people or democracy at all, but rather all about money and power.

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» I love your show Bozo Posted by: BTDT
Why no mention of Seattle '99?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Oct 30, 2007 9:59 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Face it - the younger generation is fed up with burnt-out hippies whining about the current state of affairs.

Recall Seattle in 1999?. Mr Engelhardt seems to have forgotten all about that.

We all saw what the 60's hippies turned into: greedy yuppies. Mr. Engelhard discusses the SDS but he rather ignores what the leaders of SDS did later - my favorite is Jerry Rubin, radical protestor, member of "The Chicago Seven", and in the 1980's, Wall Street speculator. Hmmm... what kind of message does that send?

We know now that the great Chicago demonstration of 1968 was largely orchestrated by Cointelpro: Army documents show that about one in six of the "protestors" were actually undercover provocateurs. This really helped Nixon's electoral campaign out, as he could point to the "lawless protestors" as examples of the need for his "law and order" presidency. Are those the kind of protests that Mr. Engelhardt is advocating?

Speaking of COINTELPRO and bullshit arguments, let's take a look at Mr. Engelhardt's Imagine the Twin Towers Hadn't Fallen on 9/11, in which he seems to be attempting to claim that the U.S. government could never have invaded Iraq and Afghanistan if the WTC hadn't collapsed - as if the suicide hijackings of 9/11 weren't enough. Has Mr. Engelhardt forgotten how the Vietnam war was started? A supposed attack on a US patrol boat off Vietnam?

I don't know what this is - I'm hoping that it's just delusion on Mr. Engelhardt's part.

As far as real change goes, protests are hardly going to change much. The Vietnam War was largely ended by the Vietnamese, after all - and probably the greatest difference between the Vietnam War and Iraq War, domestically speaking, is the media coverage in Iraq is nonexistant.

Young people understand this - they know that real change involves a hard work and long-term dedicated effort. Walking around with a sign while shaking your fist in the air? That's easy, unless you live in Burma, where the police and army don't hesitate to shoot you.

Young people figured out who the real enemy here is - it's not the military, it's not the police - it's the financial global structure that the hippies happily joined up with in the 80s when they realized that partying and "the good life" takes money. That's what Seattle 99 was all about - and why doesn't Mr. Engelhardt mention that?

Really, I'd love to hear what he has to say about that.

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» You are wrong Posted by: Ellie1
» RE: You are wrong Posted by: dockboy
» Don't bother Posted by: BTDT
» RE: You are wrong Posted by: animalleaderisgreat
» You are right Posted by: Constitutionalist75
smokin'
Posted by: dockboy on Oct 30, 2007 10:25 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe they ran out of pot.

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Protest what?
Posted by: Col. Jackleg on Oct 30, 2007 10:52 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dumb and dumber? American idol? Dancing with the stars? Star search? A public that believe the U.S. and Russia were foes in WWII? A public that cannot locate Iraq on a map? A public that seeks an "exit strategy" while $millions are being spent to build the largest embassy in history in the "green zone?" Families whose wages are inadequate to pay fixed monthly expenses? 50 million plus without healthcare? $13.8 trillion domestic deficit? Trade imblance that weakens the dollar against every currency? Inflation that has lowered net take home pay to levels below 1972 standards? Real estate bubble collapse? Usury at every level of lending? Feckless Congress? Murderers at the highest level of governance? Control of the media? Rejection of accountability for any crimes under the ruse of "national security?" Assault on individual rights and freedoms? Denial of access to the courts? Assault on the jury system? Rejection of dissent as un-american? Rejection of environmental degeneration as patent "junk science?" Rejection of scientific research as anti-God? 92% of American workers unrepresented by unions? Elections that deny voting privileges or skew results? There's a helluva lot more and no protest is going to eliminate it. To hell with the draft or other grasp at the wind....this collection of bloodthirsty killers understand one thing-when they fire the weapons its okay.....but when the oppressed shoot back the "superpower" becomes just another collection of right-wing draft-dodging panty-pissers that will fold quicker than a sucker drawing to an inside straight. Man-up America....GET A ROPE!!!!!!!

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» RE: Protest what? Posted by: sre
A lot of us have already left-
Posted by: WitchyNy on Oct 30, 2007 11:15 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and are living in another country. Many are busy making plans to.
A lot of us have moved to the boonies-and are stocking up with woodstoves, food and yes-guns and amo. I am.

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» RE: A lot of us have already left- Posted by: Desert Ravengrrrl
If ONLY you liberals could win an election now and then...
Posted by: aka_bozo on Oct 30, 2007 11:48 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe if you socialists (leftists, progressives, liberals, whatEVER) could figure out how to get the LARGEST ethnic group in the country to vote for you, you’d THEN win some ELECTIONS. And, if you HAD BEEN winning some elections for the last 40+ years, you guys wouldn’t have a fascist near-police state right now, huh?

But, as it stands, when you socialists mention “protest”, the white-peasants think of “civil rights”, and THEN they think of “those people”, and THEN they vote Republican to get even with “those people”. Which is where you are RIGHT NOW!!

The country - RIGHT NOW - reflects the fantasies of 50+% of the majority ethnic group in the country.

How are you going to address THIS reality?

* Free health care? = Free health care for “those people”.
* Justice? = code word for letting “those people out of jail”.
* Regulation of markets? = liberals, who like “those people”, complaining about the successful wealthy people (who, aren’t “those people”).
* Open Government? = liberals defying the Republicans who promised to “get even” with “those people”.
* A government that works for all the citizens? = welfare for “those people”.

The entire language you socialists are trying to use is being twisted around in the tiny-little-brains of white peasants into the exact OPPOSITE of what you mean it to be.

Sadly, none of your “intellectual socialist leaders” can figure-out how to change THIS reality. So, yes, you are doomed. Doomed to the white-peasants – the largest ethnic group - voting fascist, HOPING to EVENTUALLY “get even” with “those people”. Which is all the fascist Republicans have been promising them for the last 40+ years.

All YOU'VE got are fantasies about "protests" and the "coming economic crash" which will sweep away all the "bad capitalist" leaving you with a "socialist paradise". Dream on.

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» If only people would read and THINK, but Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» not ONE election Posted by: MobileSucks
It isn't that white racists are stupid-
Posted by: WitchyNy on Oct 30, 2007 2:15 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is that they have been taught to be scared of/hate black people.
And black people have been taught to be afraid of/hate white people.

Then there are the Jews, the Catholics, the Liberals, the Indians, the Mexicans...the Feminists, the Men, the Communists--and now the TERRORISTS---- any way to keep us divided and not realizing that together we outnumber the RICH RULING CLASS by 3 million to 1!

What gets me about white racists is this-they are SO close to the truth. They know they are being screwed, and they know they are mad about it--and they want to organize to stop it...but they are blaming the wrong people.

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From the '60s to now
Posted by: wireup on Oct 30, 2007 3:37 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm a veteran of those days in the '60s when we organized and marched, marched and organized. Before that I was involved in civil rights.

And now it's Iraq and, perhaps, Iran - if we survive.

And with all of this I have to say that in the WORST days of Vietnam I NEVER felt the despair that I feel now.

NO ONE IN POWER - NO ONE WHO HAS THE ABILITY TO ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING TO CHANGE THE COURSE OF EVENTS - IS LISTENING! With the exception of Dennis Kucinich they all seem to be BushLite. They refuse to commit to ending the war; refuse to defund the war; refuse to stop war on Iran; refuse to impeach and imprison the murderers and criminals now running this country into hell; refuse to restore the Constitution; refuse to repeal the Patriot Acts, the Military Commission Act; refuse to hold the telecom companies liable for spying; refuse to STOP the spying...

and on and on.

There is NO end in sight. We are LITERALLY sitting on the edge of America becoming a fascist society and what are people doing? NOTHING.

Why?

Because what can we do? Long ago I joined the ACLU, People for the American Way, Americans United for Separation of Church and State and I give whatever I can whenever I can. And I write emails and make phone calls and demonstrate - and it all feels utterly USELESS! I am in such despair.

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Effective Demonstrations Needed
Posted by: Jeff Hoffman on Oct 30, 2007 3:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I totally agree with BKLN's comments on the first post: the reason for public apathy and low demonstration numbers is the lack of a draft. Even though I fought against the draft during the Vietnam War with the idea that without a draft the military would be reduced enough to prevent it from doing anything but directly protecting the U.S., I now realize that we were wrong and that we should reinstate the draft without any exceptions for students or rich people.

But there's another problem here re demonstrations. As Ramsey Clark pointed out, the only way for demonstrations to accomplish anything significant is to get millions of people into the streets, keep them there, and disrupt business as usual until change is forced. These family friendly demonstrations on weekends do absolutely nothing to effect change. Demonstrations do not change people's political opinions, nor do they change the actions of those in power except as noted. Their only significant use is as a non-violent or relatively non-violent means of revolution. Instead, what we now have are large but meaningless Saturday or Sunday parties with speakers blathering on about things we've known for years or decades and participants feeling good about themselves while not changing a thing and sometimes contributing to the oil wars by driving to the demos.

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Wovles in sheep's clothing
Posted by: daw13 on Oct 30, 2007 5:20 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
we're used to. What we're not used to is mangy coyotes dressed up like wolves. Claiming, moreover to be the fiercist wolves on the planet. Just take off those collars and leashes the liberals have burdened them with, and they'll take the pack (which includes we of proper color, religion and attitude) to glory again. Kings of the hill, howling our defiance of third world discontents, asian money lenders, and all who disapprove.

And we buy this lie. Hence, we bitch about their crudeness, their bad manners, and thrill in horror at their ruthlessness (and torture) -- but we are not really hard wired to give much of a shit about out-groupers. Long as our gang is the toughest, we're content, deep down (and not so deep down).

So the lie they sell, which goes unchallenged by all critics, is that they are indeed wolves, and not just mangy coyotes, bound to lead us all into chaos. When this becomes evident, activism will return.

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No publiclity
Posted by: Jeanne on Oct 30, 2007 5:25 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Two days later this article appears here. I posted this on the weekend:

"Did anyone notice that demonstrations were held in 12 cities across the country this past weekend? I looked for reports of it on the internet. Only MSNBC and ABC had any coverage of it -- and you had to dig. CNN did not mention it. The TV news? Not a word. So, effectively they threw a peace march, and as far as the rest of the country and the world know, no one came...."

Action is irrelevant when it is marches and speeches that only the choir hears. The only thing those in charge understand is $$$$$. Protest has to take the form of economic boycotts. Choose a thing, any thing, and stop buying it. If everyone who wanted some action on this war stopped buying a specific brand of toilet paper, or coffee, or soap -- maybe someone would notice. Or boycott a TV network (FOX comes to mind).

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» RE: No publiclity Posted by: animalleaderisgreat
Thousands of entertainment distractions pacify the nimble masses
Posted by: common intelligence on Oct 30, 2007 6:59 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The massive amount of choices in entertainment have shattered conscious attention spans.

Too many choices of music and vision oriented media lure young and old a like to constantly look into fantasy realities for a reason to engage into life and bring meaning to their life beyond concerns of debt and obligations.

The concept of think global and act locally has backfired.
Individuals has been so distracted by electronic distractions like games and internet that their yearning quest to discover the vastness of their country has isolated them to living locally.

Hens, a homogenized view life into endless repetitive experiences have cut off people from realizing the fragility of the pablumized and all illusive concept of freedom has evaded them.
Therefore curiosity of the possibility to define each of our own meaning of life has been channeled into living vicariously through the controlled medias interpretation of what freedom is.

Just look at what Baseball has become. The stadiums are packed to the hilt with people looking to escape there redundant daily activities of work (off the indebtedness) ethic. Then they are collectively directed to engage in praising freedom through recitations of America the Beautiful and the Star Spangled Banner. Never even protesting the absurdity of the
indoctrination. Then continue to "play ball". At the end , like lemmings, they race to get to the jammed trails home to their cave, until the next day of indebted servitude. All for the promise of the American Dream sheathed in a vail of more debt.

Yet all in all we are "free", so the question of protest is not even a though or consideration. Because we are free to hide in our caves with HDTV and surround sound. Mimicking a reality of illusionary safety and security, never having to realize real freedom has been tricked away from them.

Pay for insurances, pay for health care, pay for an irrelevant education, pay for technological medical advances that are attainable for only the elite, invest in a future of the easy life that eludes 90% of the population.
Until it is too late to actually impliment relative change for our selves.

So why protest?
What's to protest?

Who are you going to persuade to make change.....
on our behalf?

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lack of media coverage
Posted by: mcubed on Oct 31, 2007 9:49 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I too protested several times during the build-up to the invasion of Iraq, and a few times since. In DC, Fayetteville, NC and Raleigh NC. I felt it was my civic duty, and also spoke openly about my disagreement with the policy with coworkers and others who disagreed. Most of these people seemed to be in lockstep with the very slanted media coverage, and didn't have many opinions outside of whatever the current rationalization was. Most had conveniently forgotten the previous rationalizations.

Because I didn't feel that my participation in protests,
or one-on-one conversations were making any difference,
I felt helpless.

Not feeling I had a way to make an impact against the grand atrocity my country is currently committing, I decided to go back to school to learn hopefully a little that I might contribute toward efforts to stem the tide of global warming. With my current course load and work schedule I don't have time to participate in protests. I do however make time to vote.

Michele

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"American Disengagement
Posted by: alanmcc on Oct 31, 2007 12:55 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The news media do not report on
protests any more. And the politicians
are not influenced by them.
So people must choose other ways of
making their discontent and unhappiness known.
We in the Impeachment Meetups of
Washington D.C. have a very effective
and efficient way of doing this.
We sell our lovely "I M P E A C H
H I M" buttons for the exorbitant
price of one dollar, and we use our
profits to buy yard signs, with the
same message, which are "Free to a
Good Home".
I feel that commentators simply looking
for marches and demonstrations are
overlooking these new ways of protest.
We have sold about $14,000 worth of
buttons, and we have implanted about
600 yard signs, which are seen by
hundreds of thousands of motorists each day
in the D.C. area.
Maybe Mr Engelhardt should do a story
about us.

For further information, look at
www.waifllc.org .

Best wishes,

Alan McConnell

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The Dream Is Over
Posted by: dumdumboy on Oct 31, 2007 1:29 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The largest anti-Iraq Invasion rallies were held even before the war began, and what did they accomplish? Furthermore, Shrub said at the time that he didn't base foreign policy on opinion polls, or some-such. When Americans had a chance to oust him with an opinion poll that even he couldn't ignore - the presidential election of 2004 - he won the popular vote! People like me who put a whole lot of effort into ousting him within the system were severely disappointed.

In contrast, the protests in the 1960s appeared to be having some effect. When President Johnson announced that he wasn't running for a second term it was widely believed that the anti-Vietnam War protests played a large part in that decision. There were other tangible achievements as well, from disrupting enlistment processes to shutting-down universities.

While the four murders at Kent State University probably had a chilling effect on organized protests during the Vietnam War, it seems to me that Nixon's landslide re-election in 1972 put the final nail in that coffin. We had a similar nailing-shut in 2004.

2008 is only a couple of months away...

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Feels like an empty ritual.
Posted by: Urstrly on Oct 31, 2007 1:48 PM   
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As someone who, like you Tom, marched against Vietnam and both before and after the Iraq war began, I stayed home this time and the last time. Here's why:

1. I don't think any one is influenced by these marches any more, certainly not the White House. I think we would have to turn out ten million people before they'd get the message, and the response would not be restrained. The very idea that it's a sort of civic stroll shows how little you expect anything to change.

2. With Vietnam there were a lot of Democrats and a few Republicans who seemed bolstered in their dissent by the demonstrations in the streets; some of them even showed up, which is rare these days. See any elected officials Saturday?

3. In 2006, we had an election in which the overwhelming sentiment was to get out of Iraq. What happened? The Democrats started backing away as soon as they were sworn in, and Nancy Pelosi took impeachment of the most lawless administration in history off the table.

Frankly, I think response to these demonstrations is sort of factored in and dismissed by the people who might stop this war. We need to find a new and novel way to make them take us seriously. That woman from Code Pink who waved a bloody hand in Condi Rice's face the other day was on to something. It even ran on a network news program I saw.

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people are in a colossal internet circle jerk
Posted by: MobileSucks on Oct 31, 2007 2:15 PM   
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-one of the biggest being the so-called 9-11 Truth Movement. That's what a lot of people are doing. It's more fun to endlessly chat with each other and argue about theories on who exactly really was behind X event in US history and exactly why, and exactly how they did it, and who the people are that know who did it and why they are involved, and who is covering that up, and why people just cant see the obvious truth of it, and what to do about it, if anything even can be done, and blah, blah, blah...

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» Sounds like you're jerking yourself off! Posted by: common intelligence
» babbling some more Posted by: MobileSucks
» Howard Zinn is on YOUR side? Posted by: MobileSucks
KZ-lager is waiting for them!
Posted by: Orientalist on Oct 31, 2007 3:25 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just like in Germany in the 30:ties lists are made up thru the new GESTAPO here in the US full of name. They gott them listening in on YOUR email, mail or phone-conversation or even thru snitchers! The KZ-lager is ready and everything is ready to go just by pushing the trigger. This is NAZI-history all over again! Thats why You dont see any movement!

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A file on everybody!
Posted by: Orientalist on Oct 31, 2007 3:39 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Secret Police or HOMELAND Security (RSHA) soon has a file on everyone just like in SSSR, NAZI-Germany or East-Germany which I have visited under the Communist regime! Everybody was listening to and it started even before their borders, on the ferry over the Baltic Sea, thats what US has become thats why people are afraid!

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technocrat
Posted by: technocrat on Oct 31, 2007 5:49 PM   
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Come on, people, wake up! Protest does ABSOLUTELY no good, because you're protesting a symptom while ignoring the root cause. Yes, ongong war is a symptom of corporate dominance over public policy. Our troops are being sent to kill and be killed as muscle for the will of corporate Amerika. Protest all you want, it's just a feel-good exercise in futility. The Corporate Masters have us all by the balls, including every single presidential candidate and member of Congress - hell, they wouldn't be there without the sanction of the Masters.
The Elite will watch the rest of the world go up in flames and sequester themselves in their bunkers and mountaintop retreats while the rabble kill off each other. That's the way it's planned, because there's just too many of the rabble lousing up the planet. At one time the Elite needed them to keep fattening their coffers and make them feel like top dogs, but those days are over because the Elite has it all now. One thing about nukes, they sterilize all the stinking remains so the Elite won't be burdened by the stench.
The ONLY answer is to trash the money system that gives the Elite their power and emasculate corporate power over the people and resources of Earth. And the corporate greedheads have us so hooked on the monetary poison - no matter if your lounging in your Lazyboy or poling a sampan on the Iriwaddy - that is choking us to death, we're not about to abandon it. What we're going to wind up with is a largely unusable planet and fewer people to use it, and the Debt Masters owning every one of them. Buena suerte, mis amigos.

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Christian Science Monitor Answers Tom's Six Page Question:
Posted by: Sweeet Pea on Oct 31, 2007 7:55 PM   
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(in one page)

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1030/p09s02-coop.htm

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The Media is blacking out Protests...
Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Oct 31, 2007 8:36 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The media isn't showing the protests or telling the truth as to the numbers..so others feel there's no use to them..

They also immediately marginalize those who do take to the streets it's all part of our fascist media controlled by the Bilderbergers and the corporate fascists..

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William Middlemas
Posted by: wmiddlemas on Oct 31, 2007 11:34 PM   
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During Vietnam the draft immediately called for real time, life and death sacrifice of more and more families as the war dragged on. The only real sacrifice most Americans are making now is a falling dollar, loss of American Prestige and a public debt that will be passed on to future generations. Hardly an in your face sacrifice that most Americans must deal with every day.

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Where?
Posted by: talkville on Nov 1, 2007 6:07 AM   
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One of the major places and times it has gone to (protest that is) is this, the computer and the "technological revolution' as it's called. Rulers know very well how to siphon off, channel and render minimal the energies and libidos that might hamper or otherwise slow the imposition of their plans and policies. They didn't sit back and just absorb the '60's complacently; they learned and studied and learned some more. Or WWI, or WWII or the French and the American and the Russian revolutions.

Federalism begins with internal and cannot but expand to external empire-building, just as Capitalism and Mercantilism can't either. Republics are but way-stations on the long march of history.

At this juncture, I'm no longer so optimistic about the form of protest. As I type this, the infrastructure of Control and Dominance is developing fine and un-hindered and, with Patriot Acts I and II among other juridical developments proceeding nice and dandy, it seems we're into a fairly long process of fascism and imperialism (in all the strictness and narrowness of their meanings). I do not advocate nor think violent responses ought to be considered as means of resistance; but it seems we need to begin working on other form of resistance and organization. Gains since WWII have been efficiently countered and in a very large part removed. Resistance from the bottom up, in conversations about the weather, about sports, about work and play, about home, about family, about friends, about city councils, about county commissions, about immigrations, about NAFTA, about trade-unions, about labor parties. Resistance to comments about human nature, about minds and souls, about bodies, about ideas and realities, positives and negatives, about conformity and rules. Bottom towards top. Because by now the streets have been taken, the parks have been taken, the internet is being taken, the airwaves are being taken, the seas are being taken. As Iraq was taken. As the Middle East is being taken.

But authority is given, and one must not give any more; for it's being taken in leaps and bounds and daily. For today, Jonah wants to swallow the Whale! And Jonah is immensely and spectacularly wealthy and has immense and spectacular resources, and he studies and learns; studies and learns; studies and learns while he feeds on the Whale, one tiny little bit at a time or in chunks the size of countries. And he doesn't share. And he moves with a tad or two of religious zeal combined with other more mundane and pragmatic energies such as science and technology. And it's thoroughly and completely secular ("saeculum"- an age, an epoch, a period, an era); as always, BOTH faith and reason, logic and emotion, Nature and Society, the Real and the Ideal, are imbricated right in it. And it's Universalist -- it wants the Universe, from DNA and electrons to the outer reaches of the stars and everything in between. Why, one could almost smell the word "totalitarian" in the winds!

Real corpses and real hunger and real homelessness and real (and surreal) money and real natural areas demand it: resistance. One must learn to move and feel and see in the dark; it's a must, if we claim to be on the human side of the "human animal". Just the reverse seems to be trending.

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Learning
Posted by: nonein2008 on Nov 1, 2007 6:25 AM   
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Foremost, we must not allow these administrations to pull us into contrived wars to feed the military machine and the industrial complex that feeds on war. You dream to think of any difference between Republicans and Democrats on the war. The machine needs war, Hillary will continue it when they give her the office of President.

But, maybe we did learn something from Vietnam. I opposed both wars. We broke both. However, it is a fact that tens of millions died directly because we pulled out of Vietnam. The killing fields are real. The vacuum created by the USA leaving Vietnam was real. The blood of those people and the decades of suffering are on the hands of those who had us pull out. We can not simply "pull out" and leave millions to now die.

At the same time, we must vigorously oppose any attempt to pull us into other military actions, anywhere. The US military is to break and destroy, not provide peace keeping. How foolish of those who ask for troops for Darfor?

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where it's at for effective activism
Posted by: realtruther on Nov 1, 2007 7:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Having been deeply involved in the anti-war movement between late 2002 and the end of 2003, and having made the switch to focusing primarily on 9/11, I can tell you that the anti-war movement failed primarily because it completely shut out the issue of 9/11.

The problem is simple--9/11 was fraudulently blamed on a group of people who would garner little sympathy. The masses were easily divided into the high-school level mentalities of the aggressive and proud jock who would fight back forcefully and the sensitive intellectuals who would urge that we understand the legitimate grievances of this "enemy".

Fed a steady diet of propaganda on both sides, Americans became increasingly polarized despite the "United We Stand" rhetoric. Americans have been sufefring not just from a directed campaign of shock and awe but also the cognitive dissonance inherent in being coerced into believing mountains of contradictory "facts" without which the glaring problems in the official narrative could not easily be overlooked.

What we are seeing now should not discourage genuinely committed activists--far from it. As the truth about 9/11 is forced by our activism into the mainstream consciousness, the necessary tensions are developing for the eventual resolution of the top-down imposed consciousness that has made it nigh impossible for the citizenry to express its will.

The paradigm shift is already underway--it cannot be stopped at this point, and despite the best efforts of certain vested interests to manage it it will inevitably result in a denoument of historic proportions that will make the stage-managed events of 9/11 look like a blip in the timeline.

Those who are still confused by the whole 9/11 truth phenomenon, who think it MUST be some kind of joke, trick, or scam, or who just don't know and are afraid or for any other reason disinclined to look into it will sooner or later have no choice but to confront this demon. It is a personal transformation (just one way of describing the sea-change in awareness) that we share collectively as a nation and as a world-citizenry. Many will likely feel the need for therapy upon realizing the truth, and indeed it is therapy that our nation and world desperately need right now.

Sit back, relax, and open your mind. Do not be afraid to confront difficult topics. Do not presume to know more than you do. Do not continue misplacing your trust--trust yourself to understand once you have resolved to become absolutely sure of everything that you think you know. What awaits is not a brand new world, but something better--the sanity that was robbed from us on September 11, 2001 by parties as yet unknown.

Help us to find out the truth, and help us to save the world from further chaos. When it comes to grassroots activism, there is nothing like the real thing, and 9/11 truth is where it's at right now.

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Perhaps the answer lies in the Future
Posted by: djnoll on Nov 1, 2007 8:42 AM   
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Over the last few months and several days of research into the roots of our democracy, I have come to realize that our nation was founded not by old men or even middle aged men, as much as it was the desire of young men and women to have a better way of life in the future for themselves and their children. These young men were the ones noted by the British as the soldiers they were fighting, leading one British general to comment that he felt he was fighting a war against children and old men. Maybe the answer for this nation lies not in the baby boomers, but rather in their children and grandchildren banding together with the last of the baby boomers parents.

Maybe it is time to stop the protesting and start building a new nation from the inside out and the bottom up. It has become apparent that the usual means of creating change in this country is no longer effective, now we must take action. Short of outright revolution, the only choice will be a silent revolution based on non-mainstream education of our children and working with them to create change from the bottom up and the inside out. It must be cross generational and it must be under the radar in order to not be threatening to those who currently are beating the will out of us. It is time to create evolutionary change so that the next generation can step up to the political scene with the tools to change from within and not be taken over by the corporate elitists and war profiteers. A person can be a Congressman or woman at age 25, so lets make sure that those who can move up into power are equipped to do so effectively.

I am planning now to start a new youth organization - America's Youth for a Secure and Healthy American Future (AYSHAF). It will be dedicated to teaching our children how to build a better America from their families to their communities to their states. It will stress learning about not just grassroots democracy, but also securing a better future through a united environmental effort to provide a safe and secure food supply, alternative power, alternative housing, natural conservation of farmlands, and building communities that are healthy, secure and safe places to live. It will be for children from age 6 to young adults age 24. Each level will learn more ways to change this country into the nation that they say they want. It will create at least 1, and possibly, 2 generations who will have the time to create the most effective changes and who can work the hardest because they have the most to lose. It will not be the Me Generation of Baby Boomers who still are acting like everything is about them, which is the biggest complaint of the GenXers and GenYers. It will be about finding the best means to re-create a democratic republic from the community level up. It will be the place for future leaders to develop ideals and ideas that can be implemented now to create the foundation for a new republic that is secure, democratic, healthy, and free for future generations.

If anyone has any suggestions on what they think this group could do to create a nation where politicians like the Bushs and the Cheneys and the Clintons cannot survive the clear light of day because the newest voters and candidates are proactive and demanding, please contact me through my website below or post here any responses. Thanks.

http://standanddeliveramerica.com

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REVOLT
Posted by: Tanvir37 on Nov 1, 2007 12:27 PM   
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Some generations are known for protesting and some aren’t. I recently came across a website about Estonia’s Singing Revolution – http://singingrevolution.com; This is one of the most inspirational and courageous protests you’ll ever see. Thousands of people came together and revolted against Russian control.

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I remember the 2006 protests
Posted by: Camilla Cracchiolo on Nov 1, 2007 6:19 PM   
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The last one was held the day before the elections. It was the smallest one yet in L.A. at the time, maybe 10,000 at most.

Yet the next day, people voted against the Republicans en masse all over the country. My thought at the time was "People have stayed home to do something more effective."

It hasn't changed things yet. Still, I think we accomplished what we wanted: massive opposition to the war and to the Repugs that put us in it. Now the question becomes: what do we do when the representatives we voted for don't end the war???

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A Brief History of a Late Citizen
Posted by: JayHaden on Nov 5, 2007 12:53 PM   
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My wife and I just got back to Montana after the peace march on 27 Oct, so this post may be like giving a speech on the Senate floor at 2 am.

In the mid-60's, I started grad school at the U of Wash. There were protests then, with signs that read "Bomb Hanoi!" It wasn't until the Tet Offensive that things changed. By then, I was already working on a regional planning project in Yugoslavia, where our young Communist friends saw fit to give us some Viet Cong literature that had come into their possession -- to help enlighten us. One pamphlet was on the massacre at My Lai, which the American media hadn't yet been hit over the head with. We took it as an obvious piece of propaganda. The truth came later and, since then, we've lamented our missed chances to really protest Johnson's and Nixon's war.

Fast forward to 2007, two years into retirement from the United Nations. Now, we have no excuses, so we bought sign materials and tried out various slogans, finally settling on "Impeach the Pair!" and "Iraq ... Iran??? Irate!!!" The obverse of our signs said "Montana" with the peace logo. In January we went to the UFPJ march in DC, where maybe 300-400,000 folks gathered on the Mall, talked and listened to a few speeches and then set off to march around the Capitol (on a Saturday, when our Congress people had already been gone for two days). The marchers completely encircled the edifice. It was a sunny day and almost everyone was on message: Peace and Impeach. We felt good about finally taking some action, just to let the media and politicians know that bad stuff wasn't going down in our name.

Two months later we went to the LISTEN march on the Pentagon. That march was led by a substantial number of veterans of the Iraq war and families of fallen soldiers. But it was a lot uglier as the Rovian rumor spread that we were going to desecrate the Vietnam war memorial. The Rolling Thunder guys gathered to protect it and to rail at us as we passed by. Some of our group railed back, and it wasn't as pleasant or as focused as the first march.

To keep our flame flickering, about 12 days ago we headed to Seattle to see if a bunch of regional demos might be more effective. As Tom E noted, apparently not. The police reported 2000 marchers; the organizers 7000; I think it was about 4000. We were kept completely away from downtown Seattle (memories of the 1999 WTO demos were still alive down at police HQ). The end of the march was in a pocket park near Pioneer Square where many dysfunctional folk still live, no matter how hard the city tries to shoo them away.

The evening news gave us about 10 seconds, with a nice visual of the Raging Grannies. Our friends said, "Gee, we should have gone, too." But they hadn't.

Probably the most bemused people I saw that day were the many Vietnamese spectators in the International District. They hadn't lived there prior to the 1970's, and I assume many were refugees who supported us in the earlier war. Will Iraqi refugees stand in their place when we demonstrate against the next war?

The American Friends (Quakers) set up a poignant display of small banners at the end of the march, laundry lines with tiny colored sheets hung in tiers for maybe a couple hundred feet. Each banner had the name and date of death of one American killed in Iraq. On the ground were boots, one pair for each of the 3800+ dead soldiers, maybe more pairs of boots than there were marchers that day. I scanned the names, like I do at the Vietnam War memorial, to see how the ethnic pattern may have changed over time. It was the date that caught my eye on one of them, then the name. April 30, 2005. Kenya Parker died on the same day, my birthday, that I retired from the UN after living in Nairobi for 15 years. Sorry, Mr. Parker. Maybe I shouldn't have waited so long to become a responsible citizen.

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