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Bush's Response to 9/11 Was Deadlier Than the Attacks Themselves

By Chalmers Johnson, Tomdispatch.com. Posted October 24, 2007.


A look at how and why the U.S. gravely failed in its response to 9/11.
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Introduction note by Tom Dispatch editor Tom Engelhardt.



They came in as unreformed Cold Warriors, only lacking a cold war -- and looking for an enemy: a Russia to roll back even further; rogue states like Saddam's rickety dictatorship to smash. They were still in the old fight, eager to make sure that the "Evil Empire," already long down for the count, would remain prostrate forever; eager to ensure that any new evil empire like, say, China's would never be able to stand tall enough to be a challenge. They saw opportunities to move into areas previously beyond the reach of American imperial power like the former SSRs of the Soviet Union in Central Asia, which just happened to be sitting on potentially fabulous undeveloped energy fields; or farther into the even more fabulously energy-rich Middle East, where Saddam's Iraq, planted atop the planet's third largest reserves of petroleum, seemed so ready for a fall -- with other states in the region visibly not far behind.



It looked like it would be a coming-out party for one -- the debutante ball of the season. It would be, in fact, like the Cold War without the Soviet Union. What a blast! And they could still put their energies into their fabulously expensive, ever-misfiring anti-missile system, a subject they regularly focused on from January 2000 until September 10, 2001.



They were Cold Warriors in search of an enemy -- just not the one they got. When the Clintonistas, on their way out of the White House, warned them about al Qaeda, they paid next to no attention. Non-state actors were for wusses. When the CIA carefully presented the President with a one-page, knock-your-socks-off warning on August 6, 2001 that had the screaming headline, "Bin Laden determined to strike in U.S.," they ignored it. Bush and his top officials were, as it happened, strangely adrift until September 11, 2001; then, they were panicked and terrified -- until they realized that their moment had come to hijack the plane of state; so they clambered aboard, and like the Cold Warriors they were, went after Saddam.



Chalmers Johnson was himself once a Cold Warrior. Unlike the top officials of the Bush administration, however, he retained a remarkably flexible mind. He also had a striking ability to see the world as it actually was -- and a prescient vision of what was to come. He wrote the near-prophetic and now-classic book, Blowback, published well before the attacks of 9/11, and then followed it up with an anatomy of the U.S. military's empire of bases, The Sorrows of Empire, and finally, to end his Blowback Trilogy, a vivid recipe for American catastrophe, Nemesis: The Fall of the American Republic. All three are simply indispensable volumes in any reasonable post-9/11 library. Here is his latest consideration of that disastrous moment and its consequences as part of a series of book reviews he is periodically writing for Tomdispatch.


A Guide for the Perplexed: Intellectual Fallacies of the War on Terror
By Chalmers Johnson

This essay is a review of The Matador's Cape: America's Reckless Response to Terror by Stephen Holmes (Cambridge University Press, 367 pp., $30).]



There are many books entitled "A Guide for the Perplexed," including Moses Maimonides' 12th century treatise on Jewish law and E. F. Schumacher's 1977 book on how to think about science. Book titles cannot be copyrighted. A Guide for the Perplexed might therefore be a better title for Stephen Holmes' new book than the one he chose, The Matador's Cape: America's Reckless Response to Terror. In his perhaps overly clever conception, the matador is the terrorist leadership of al Qaeda, taunting a maddened United States into an ultimately fatal reaction. But do not let the title stop you from reading the book. Holmes has written a powerful and philosophically erudite survey of what we think we understand about the 9/11 attacks -- and how and why the United States has magnified many times over the initial damage caused by the terrorists.



Stephen Holmes is a law professor at New York University. In The Matador's Cape, he sets out to forge an understanding -- in an intellectual and historical sense, not as a matter of journalism or of partisan politics -- of the Iraq war, which he calls "one of the worst (and least comprehensible) blunders in the history of American foreign policy" (p. 230). His modus operandi is to survey in depth approximately a dozen influential books on post-Cold War international politics to see what light they shed on America's missteps. I will touch briefly on the books he chooses for dissection, highlighting his essential thoughts on each of them.



Holmes' choice of books is interesting. Many of the authors he focuses on are American conservatives or neoconservatives, which is reasonable since they are the ones who caused the debacle. He avoids progressive or left wing writers, and none of his choices are from Metropolitan Books' American Empire Project. (Disclosure: This review was written before I read Holmes' review of my own book Nemesis: The Last Days of the American Republic in the October 29 issue of The Nation.)



He concludes: "Despite a slew of carefully researched and insightful books on the subject, the reason why the United States responded to the al Qaeda attack by invading Iraq remains to some extent an enigma" (p. 3). Nonetheless, his critiques of the books he has chosen are so well done and fair that they constitute one of the best introductions to the subject. They also have the advantage in several cases of making it unnecessary to read the original.



Holmes interrogates his subjects cleverly. His main questions and the key books he dissects for each of them are:



* Did Islamic religious extremism cause 9/11? Here he supplies his own independent analysis and conclusion (to which I turn below).



* Why did American military preeminence breed delusions of omnipotence, as exemplified in Robert Kagan's Of Paradise and Power: America and Europe in the New World Order (Knopf, 2003)? While not persuaded by Kagan's portrayal of the United States as "Mars" and Europe as "Venus," Holmes takes Kagan's book as illustrative of neoconservative thought on the use of force in international politics: "Far from guaranteeing an unbiased and clear-eyed view of the terrorist threat, as Kagan contends, American military superiority has irredeemably skewed the country's view of the enemy on the horizon, drawing the United States, with appalling consequences, into a gratuitous, cruel, and unwinnable conflict in the Middle East" (p. 72).



* How was the war lost, as analyzed in Cobra II: The Inside Story of the Invasion and Occupation of Iraq by Michael Gordon and Bernard Trainor (Pantheon, 2006)? Holmes regards this book by Gordon, the military correspondent of the New York Times, and Trainor, a retired Marine Corps lieutenant general, as the best treatment of the military aspects of the disaster, down to and including U.S. envoy L. Paul Bremer's disbanding of the Iraqi military. I would argue that Fiasco (Penguin 2006) by the Washington Post's Thomas Ricks is more comprehensive, clearer-eyed, and more critical.



* How did a tiny group of individuals, with eccentric theories and reflexes, recklessly compound the country's post-9/11 security nightmare? Here Holmes considers James Mann's Rise of the Vulcans: The History of Bush's War Cabinet (Viking, 2004). One of Mann's more original insights is that the neocons in the Bush administration were so bewitched by Cold War thinking that they were simply incapable of grasping the new realities of the post-Cold War world. "In Iraq, alas, the lack of a major military rival excited some aging hard-liners into toppling a regime that they did not have the slightest clue how to replace.... We have only begun to witness the long-term consequences of their ghastly misuse of unaccountable power" (p. 106).



* What roles did Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld play in the Bush administration, as captured in Michael Mann's Incoherent Empire (Verso, 2003)? According to Holmes, Mann's work "repays close study, even by readers who will not find its perspective altogether congenial or convincing." He argues that perhaps Mann's most important contribution, even if somewhat mechanically put, is to stress the element of bureaucratic politics in Cheney's and Rumsfeld's manipulation of the neophyte Bush: "The outcome of inter- and intra-agency battles in Washington, D.C., allotted disproportionate influence to the fatally blurred understanding of the terrorist threat shared by a few highly placed and shrewd bureaucratic infighters. Rumsfeld and Cheney controlled the military; and when they were given the opportunity to rank the country's priorities in the war on terror, they assigned paramount importance to those specific threats that could be countered effectively only by the government agency over which they happened to preside" (p. 107).



* Why did the U.S. decide to search for a new enemy after the Cold War, as argued by an old cold warrior, Samuel Huntington, in The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order (Simon and Schuster, 1996)? It is not clear why Holmes included Huntington's eleven-year-old treatise on "Allah made them do it" in his collection of books on post-Cold War international politics except as an act of obeisance to establishmentarian -- and especially Council-on-Foreign-Relations -- thinking. Holmes regards Huntington's work as a "false template" and calls it misleading. Well before 9/11, many critics of Huntington's concept of "civilization" had pointed out that there is insufficient homogeneity in Christianity, Islam, or the other great religions for any of them to replace the position vacated by the Soviet Union. As Holmes remarks, Huntington "finds homogeneity because he is looking for homogeneity" (p. 136).



* What role did left-wing ideology play in legitimating the war on terror, as seen by Samantha Power in "A Problem from Hell": America and the Age of Genocide (Basic, 2002). As Holmes acknowledges, "The humanitarian interventionists rose to a superficial prominence in the 1990s largely because of a vacuum in U.S. foreign-policy thinking after the end of the Cold War. ... Their influence was small, however, and after 9/11, that influence vanished altogether." He nonetheless takes up the anti-genocide activists because he suspects that, by making a rhetorically powerful case for casting aside existing decision-making rules and protocols, they may have emboldened the Bush administration to follow suit and fight the "evil" of terrorism outside the Constitution and the law. The idea that Power was an influence on Cheney and Rumsfeld may seem a stretch -- they were, after all, doing what they had always wanted to do -- but Holmes' argument that "a savvy prowar party may successfully employ humanitarian talk both to gull the wider public and to silence potential critics on the liberal side" (p. 157) is worth considering.



* How did pro-war liberals help stifle national debate on the wisdom of the Iraq war, as illustrated by Paul Berman in Power and the Idealists (Soft Skull Press, 2005)? Wildly overstating his influence, Holmes writes, Berman, a regular columnist for The New Republic, "first tried to convince us that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, far from being a tribal war over scarce land and water, is part of the wider spiritual war between liberalism and apocalyptic irrationalism, not worth distinguishing too sharply from the conflict between America and al Qaeda. He then attempted to show that Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden represented two 'branches' of an essentially homogeneous extremism" (p. 181). Berman, Holmes points out, conflated anti-terrorism with anti-fascism in order to provide a foundation for the neologism "Islamo-fascism." His chief reason for including Berman is that Holmes wants to address the views of religious fundamentalists in their support of the war on terrorism.



* How did democratization at the point of an assault rifle become America's mission in the world, as seen by the apostate neoconservative Francis Fukuyama in America at the Crossroads: Democracy, Power, and the Neoconservative Legacy (Yale University Press, 2006)? Holmes is interested in Fukuyama, the neoconservatives' perennial sophomore, because he offers an insider's insights into the chimerical neocon "democratization" project for the Middle East.



Fukuyama argues that democracy is the most effective antidote to the kind of Islamic radicalism that hit the United States on September 11, 2001. He contends that the root of Islamic rebellion is to be found in the savage and effective repression of protestors -- many of whom have been driven into exile -- in places like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan. Terrorism is not the enemy, merely a tactic Islamic radicals have found exceptionally effective. Holmes writes of Fukuyama's argument, "[T]o recognize that America's fundamental problem is Islamic radicalism, and that terrorism is only a symptom, is to invite a political solution. Promoting democracy is just such a political solution" (p. 209).



The problem, of course, is that not even the neocons are united on promoting democracy; and, even if they were, they do not know how to go about it. Fukuyama himself pleads for "a dramatic demilitarization of American foreign policy and a re-emphasis on other types of policy instruments." The Pentagon, in addition to its other deficiencies, is poorly positioned and incorrectly staffed to foster democratic transitions.



* Why is the contemporary American antiwar movement so anemic, as seen through the lens of history by Geoffrey Stone in Perilous Times: Free Speech in Wartime from the Sedition Act of 1798 to the War on Terrorism (W. W. Norton, 2004)? Holmes has nothing but praise for Stone's history of expanded executive discretion in wartime. A key question raised by Stone is why the American public has not been more concerned with what happened in Iraq at Abu Ghraib prison and in the wholesale destruction of the Sunni city of Fallujah. As Holmes sees it, the Bush administration, at least in this one area, was adept at subverting public protest. Among the more important lessons George Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Karl Rove, and others learned from the Vietnam conflict, he writes, was that if you want to suppress domestic questioning of foreign military adventures, then eliminate the draft, create an all-volunteer force, reduce domestic taxes, and maintain a false prosperity based on foreign borrowing.



* How did the embracing of American unilateralism elevate the Office of the Secretary of Defense over the Department of State, as put into perspective by John Ikenberry in After Victory: Institutions, Strategic Restraint, and the Rebuilding of Order After Major Wars (Princeton University Press, 2001)? This book is Holmes' oddest choice -- a dated history from an establishmentarian point of view of the international institutions created by the United States after World War II, including the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, and NATO, all of which Ikenberry, a prominent academic specialist in international relations, applauds. Holmes agrees that, during the Cold War, the United States ruled largely through indirection, using seemingly impartial international institutions, and eliciting the cooperation of other nations. He laments the failure to follow this proven formula in the post-9/11 era, which led to the eclipse of the State Department by the Defense Department, an institution hopelessly ill-suited for diplomatic and nation-building missions.



* Why do we battle lawlessness with lawlessness (for example, by torturing prisoners) and concentrate extra-Constitutional authority in the hands of the president, as expounded by John Yoo in The Powers of War and Peace: The Constitution and Foreign Affairs After 9/11 (University of Chicago Press, 2005)? In this final section, Holmes puts on his hat as the law professor he is and takes on George Bush's and Alberto Gonzales' in-house legal counsel, the University of California, Berkeley law professor John Yoo, who authored the "torture memos" for them, denied the legality of the Geneva Conventions, and elaborated a grandiose view of the President's war-making power. Holmes wonders, "Why would an aspiring legal scholar labor for years to develop and defend a historical thesis that is manifestly untrue? What is the point and what is the payoff? That is the principal mystery of Yoo's singular book. Characteristic of The Powers of War and Peace is the anemic relations between the evidence adduced and the inferences drawn" (p. 291).



Holmes then points out that Yoo is a prominent member of the Federalist Society, an association of conservative Republican lawyers who claim to be committed to recovering the original understanding of the Constitution and which includes several Republican appointees to the current Supreme Court. His conclusion on Yoo and his fellow neocons is devastating: "[I]f the misbegotten Iraq war proves anything, it is the foolhardiness of allowing an autistic clique that reads its own newspapers and watches its own cable news channel to decide, without outsider input, where to expend American blood and treasure -- that is, to decide which looming threats to stress and which to downplay or ignore" (p. 301).



Is Islam the Culprit or Merely a Distraction?



In addition to these broad themes, Holmes investigates hidden agendas and their distorting effects on rational policy-making. Some of these are: Cheney's desire to expand executive power and weaken Congressional oversight; Rumsfeld's schemes to field-test his theory that in modern warfare speed is more important than mass; the plans by some of Cheney's and Rumsfeld's advisers to improve the security situation of Israel; the administration's desire to create a new set of permanent U.S. military bases in the Middle East to protect the U.S. oil supply in case of a collapse of the Saudi monarchy; and the desire to invade Iraq and thereby avoid putting all the blame for 9/11 on al Qaeda -- because to do so would have involved admitting administration negligence and incompetence during the first nine months of 2001 and, even worse, that Clinton was right in warning Bush and his top officials that the main security threat to the United States was a potential al Qaeda attack or attacks.



This is not the place to attempt a comprehensive review of Holmes' detailed critiques. For that, one should buy and read his book. Let me instead dwell on three themes that I think illustrate his insight and originality.



Holmes rejects any direct connection between Islamic religious extremism and the 9/11 attacks, although he recognizes that Islamic vilification of the United States and other Western powers is often expressed in apocalyptically religious language. "Emphasizing religious extremism as the motivation for the [9/11] plot, whatever it reveals," he argues, "...terminates inquiry prematurely, encouraging us to view the attack ahistorically as an expression of 'radical Salafism,' a fundamentalist movement within Islam that allegedly drives its adherents to homicidal violence against infidels" (p. 2). This approach, he points out, is distinctly tautological: "Appeals to social norms or a culture of martyrdom are not very helpful.... They are tantamount to saying that suicidal terrorism is caused by a proclivity to suicidal terrorism" (p. 20).



Instead, he suggests, "The mobilizing ideology behind 9/11 was not Islam, or even Islamic fundamentalism, but rather a specific narrative of blame" (p. 63). He insists on putting the focus on the actual perpetrators, the 19 men who executed the attacks in New York and Washington -- 15 Saudi Arabians, two citizens of the United Arab Emirates, one Egyptian, and one Lebanese. None of them was particularly religious. Three were living together in Hamburg, Germany, where they did appear to have become more interested in Islam than they had been in their home countries. Mohamed Atta, the leader of the group, age 33 on 9/11, had Egyptian and German degrees in architecture and city planning and became highly politicized in favor of the Palestinian cause against Zionism only after he went abroad.



Holmes notes, "According to the classic study of resentment, [Friedrich Nietzsche's On the Genealogy of Morals (1887)] 'every sufferer instinctively seeks a cause for his suffering; more specifically, an agent, a "guilty" agent who is susceptible of pain -- in short, some living being or other on whom he can vent his feelings directly or in effigy, under some pretext or other.' If suffering is seen as natural or uncaused it will be coded as misfortune instead of injustice, and it will produce resignation rather than rebellion. The most efficient way to incite, therefore, is to indict" (p. 64).



The role of bin Laden was, and remains, to provide such a hyperbolic indictment -- one that men like Atta would never have heard back in authoritarian Egypt but that came through loud and clear in their German exile. Bin Laden demonized the United States, accusing it of genocide against Muslims and repeatedly contending that the presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia ever since the first Gulf War in 1991 was a far graver offense than the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, even though that had led to the death of one million Afghans and had sent five million more into exile.



The fact that the 9/11 plot involved the attackers' own self-destruction suggests possible irrationality on their part, but Holmes argues that this was actually part of the specific narrative of blame. Americans feel contempt for Muslims and ascribe little or no value to Muslim lives. Therefore, to be captured after a terrorist attack involved a high likelihood that the Americans would torture the perpetrator. Suicide took care of that worry (and provided several other advantages discussed below).



The United States as "Sole Remaining Superpower"



Another subject about which Holmes is strikingly original is the subtle way in which the collapse of the former Soviet Union and the United States' self-promotion as the sole remaining superpower clouded our vision and virtually guaranteed the catastrophe that ensued in Iraq. "Because Americans.... have sunk so much of their national treasure into a military establishment fit to deter and perhaps fight an enemy that has now disappeared," he argues, "they have an almost irresistible inclination to exaggerate the centrality of rogue states, excellent targets for military destruction, [above] the overall terrorist threat. They overestimate war (which never unfolds as expected) and underestimate diplomacy and persuasion as instruments of American power" (pp. 71-72).



Holmes draws several interesting implications from this American overinvestment in Cold-War-type military power. One is that the very nature of the 9/11 attacks undermined crucial axioms of American national security doctrine. In a much more significant way than in the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center, a non-state actor on the international stage successfully attacked the United States, contrary to a well-established belief in Pentagon circles that only states have the capability of menacing us militarily. Equally alarming, by employing a strategy requiring their own deaths, the terrorists ensured that deterrence no longer held sway. Overwhelming military might cannot deter non-state actors who accept that they will die in their attacks on others. The day after 9/11, American leaders in Washington D.C. suddenly felt unprotected and defenseless against a new threat they only imperfectly understood. They responded in various ways.



One was to recast what had happened in terms of Cold-War thinking. "To repress feelings of defenselessness associated with an unfamiliar threat, the decision makers' gaze slid uncontrollably away from al Qaeda and fixated on a recognizable threat that was unquestionably susceptible to being broken into bits" (p.312). Holmes calls this fusion of bin Laden and Saddam Hussein a "mental alchemy, the 'reconceiving' of an impalpable enemy as a palpable enemy." He endorses James Mann's thesis that Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, and others did not change the underlying principles guiding American foreign policy in response to the 9/11 attacks; that, in fact, they did the exact opposite: "[T]he Bush administration has managed foreign affairs so ineptly because it has been reflexively implementing out-of-date formulas in a radically changed security environment" (p. 106).



Unintended consequences also played a role, Holmes argues: "If conservative Congressmen had not blocked [Pennsylvania Governor] Tom Ridge's nomination as Defense Secretary [in 2000] for the ludicrously immaterial reason that he was wobbly on abortion, then the Cheney-Rumsfeld group, including Wolfowitz and [Douglas] Feith, would have been in no position to hijack the administration's reaction to 9/11" (pp. 93-94). Rumsfeld enthusiastically endorsed Bush's description of his "new" policies as a "war" because the Office of the Secretary of Defense then became the lead agency in designing and carrying out America's response.



There was little or no countervailing influence. "By sheer chance," Holmes writes, "Rice and Powell -- no doubt orderly managers -- have pedestrian minds and perhaps deferential personalities. Neither provided a gripping and persuasive vision of the United States' role in the world that might have counteracted the megalomania of the neoconservatives, and neither was capable of outfoxing the hard-liners in an interagency power struggle" (p. 94).



The costs of equating al Qaeda with Iraq and of concentrating on a military response were high. "It meant that some of the troops sent to Iraq in the first wave believed, disgracefully, that they were avenging the 3,000 dead from September 11.... Cruel and arbitrary behavior by some U.S. forces helped stoke the violent insurgency that followed" (p. 307).



American confusion about the nature of the enemy -- rogue state vs. non-state terrorist organization -- produced two different counterstrategies, both of which almost certainly made the situation worse. First, by focusing on a rogue state (Iraq), rather than on a non-state actor (al Qaeda), the Pentagon drew attention to what it came to call the "hand-off scenario" in which a nuclear-armed rogue state might hand over weapons of mass destruction to terrorists who would use them against the U.S. To counter this threat, the Pentagon developed a strategy of preventive war against rogue states with the objective of bringing about regime change in them. The only way to prevent nuclear proliferation to terrorist groups -- so the argument went -- was to forcibly democratize Middle Eastern authoritarian regimes, some of which had long been allied with the United States.



The other strategy was a return to what seemed like a form of deterrence: a "scare the Muslims" campaign. This involved a resort to massive "shock and awe" bombing raids on Baghdad with the intent of demonstrating the futility of defying the United States.



By reacting to the threat of modern terrorism with an attack on a substitute target -- without even bothering to calculate the enormous potential costs involved -- the Pentagon greatly overestimated what military force could achieve. Both the regime-change and overawe-the-Muslims approaches carried with them potentially devastating unintended consequences -- particularly if any of the premises, such as about who possessed WMD, were wrong. Overly abstract ideas were substituted for empirical knowledge of, and logical responses to, an enemy's capabilities. Thus, insurgencies in Iraq and Afghanistan, two devastated, poor countries, have managed to fight one of the most powerful American expeditionary forces in history to a virtual standstill. In short, "America's bellicose response to the 9/11 provocation was not only dishonorable and unethical, given the cruel suffering it has inflicted on thousands of innocents, but also imprudent in the extreme because it was bound to produce as much hatred as fear, as much burning desire for reprisal as quaking paralysis and docility. Some of the sickening effects are unfolding before our eyes. That even more malevolent consequences remain in store is a grim possibility not to be wished away" (p. 10).



Complicity of the Left in American Imperialism



Holmes is also interesting on why the American Left has been so ineffectual in countering the efforts of Washington's pro-war party. Deeply guilt-ridden over the Clinton administration's failure to stop the genocide in Rwanda and frustrated by the constraints of international law and United Nations procedures, some influential progressives in America had already advocated a preemptive and unilateralist turn in American foreign policy that the Bush administration hijacked. Human rights activists had heavily promoted intervention in Bosnia and Kosovo to halt ethnic cleansing -- and doing so without any international sanction whatsoever. Some of them became as enthusiastic about using the American armed forces to achieve limited foreign policy goals as many neocons. Even U.S. ambassador to the U.N. Madeleine Albright made herself notorious with her 1993 wisecrack to then Joint Chiefs Chairman Colin Powell: "What's the point of having this superb military that you're always talking about if we can't use it?"



Although Holmes tries not to overstate his case, he suspects that the humanitarian interventionism of the 1990s -- at one point he speaks of "human rights as imperial ideology" (p. 190) -- may have played at least a small role in the public's acceptance of Bush's intervention in Iraq. If so, it is hard to imagine a better example of the disasters that good intentions can sometimes produce. The result in Iraq, in turn, has more or less silenced calls from the Left for further campaigns of military intervention for humanitarian purposes. The U.S. is conspicuously not participating in the U.N. intervention in the Darfur region of Sudan.



The Rule of Law




As a legal scholar, Holmes is committed to the rule of law. "[L]aw is best understood," he writes, "not as a set of rigid rules but rather as a set of institutional mechanisms and procedures designed to correct the mistakes that even exceptionally talented executive officials are bound to make and to facilitate midstream readjustments and course corrections. If we understand law, constitutionalism, and due process in this way, then it becomes obvious why the war on terrorism is bound to fail when conducted, as it has been so far, against the rule of law and outside the constitutional system of checks and balances" (p. 5).



This short-circuiting of normal constitutional procedures he sees as probably the most consequential post-9/11 blunder of the Bush administration. The President's repeated claims that he needs high levels of secrecy and the ability to arbitrarily cancel established law in order to move decisively against terrorists draw his utter contempt. "By dismantling checks and balances, along the lines idealized and celebrated by [John] Yoo, the administration has certainly gained flexibility in the 'war on terror.' It has gained the flexibility, in particular, to shoot first and aim afterward" (p. 301). Although such an assumption of dictatorial powers has happened before during periods of national emergency in the United States, Holmes is convinced that the humanitarian interventionism of the 1990s helped anesthetize many Americans to the implications of what the government was doing after 9/11.



Even now, with the Iraq War all but lost and public opinion having turned decisively against the President, there is still a flabbiness in mainstream criticism that reveals a major weakness in the conduct of American foreign policy. For example, while many hawks and doves today recognize that Rumsfeld mobilized too few forces to achieve his military objectives in Iraq, they tend to concentrate on his rejection of former Army Chief of Staff General Eric Shinseki's advice that he needed a larger army of occupation. They almost totally ignore the true national policy implications of Rumsfeld's failed leadership. Holmes writes, "If Saddam Hussein had actually possessed the tons of chemical and biological weapons that, in the president's talking points, constituted the casus belli for the invasion, Rumsfeld's slimmed-down force would have abetted the greatest proliferation disaster in world history" (p. 82). He quotes Michael Gordon and Bernard Trainor: "Securing the WMD required sealing the country's borders and quickly seizing control of the many suspected sites before they were raided by profiteers, terrorists, and regime officials determined to carry on the fight. The force that Rumsfeld eventually assembled, by contrast, was too small to do any of this" (pp. 84-85). As a matter of fact, looters did ransack the Iraqi nuclear research center at al Tuwaitha. No one pointed out these flaws in the strategy until well after the invasion had revealed that, luckily, Saddam had no WMD.



With this book, Stephen Holmes largely succeeds in elevating criticism of contemporary American imperialism in the Middle East to a new level. In my opinion, however, he underplays the roles of American imperialism and militarism in exploiting the 9/11 crisis to serve vested interests in the military-industrial complex, the petroleum industry, and the military establishment. Holmes leaves the false impression that the political system of the United States is capable of a successful course correction. But, as Andrew Bacevich, author of The New American Militarism: How Americans Are Seduced by War, puts it: "None of the Democrats vying to replace President Bush is doing so with the promise of reviving the system of checks and balances.... The aim of the party out of power is not to cut the presidency down to size but to seize it, not to reduce the prerogatives of the executive branch but to regain them."



There is, I believe, only one solution to the crisis we face. The American people must make the decision to dismantle both the empire that has been created in their name and the huge, still growing military establishment that undergirds it. It is a task at least comparable to that undertaken by the British government when, after World War II, it liquidated the British Empire. By doing so, Britain avoided the fate of the Roman Republic -- becoming a domestic tyranny and losing its democracy, as would have been required if it had continued to try to dominate much of the world by force. To take up these subjects, however, moves the discussion into largely unexplored territory. For now, Holmes has done a wonderful job of clearing the underbrush and preparing the way for the public to address this more or less taboo subject.

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Chalmers Johnson is the author of the bestselling Blowback Trilogy -- Blowback (2000), The Sorrows of Empire (2004), and Nemesis: The Last Days of the American Republic (2007).

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Theres a point there!
Posted by: TT20 on Oct 24, 2007 12:39 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Considering that 9/11 killed about 6000 people, and the "war on terror" must have killed atleast 60 000 by now!

+9/11 was an inside job!!!

» The best link and Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: HEY 9-11 CONSPIRACY THEORISTS Posted by: Iconoclast421
» A lot of dumb comments here Posted by: johndoraemi
» RE: Counter-Propagandizer Inc. Posted by: channing
» quick responses Posted by: counterpoint
» your 'tactic': calling me a "maggot" Posted by: counterpoint
» 1.5 million Iraqis Posted by: kellysgarden
» RE: Theres a point there! Posted by: odom79
» RE: Theres a point there! Posted by: Bibsi
9/11 was right on schedule
Posted by: vox persona on Oct 24, 2007 1:19 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If 19 mostly Saudi suicide commandos hadn't carried out their attack, it would have been necessary for CheneyBu$hCo to invent one. Disregarding PDB's (BinLaden determined to attack in US), a CIA Director with his 'hair on fire', reports of suspicious types taking flying lessons but not wanting to learn to land, et al ad nauseam, Bush found it more pressing to read My Pet Goat after being told America is under attack. Supposedly, Cheney overrode NORAD protocols; after all, compare the possible damage sustained by a few errant planes against all that can be gained by such an attack. The unprecedented power grab was immediate like it was planned in advance. Bush declared a war on a tactic (WOT), then seized presidential wartime powers far beyond the framers' intentions, then used that power to launch a very real war on an unrelated country we had fully contained. The huge untapped oil underground was just a coincidence. So now we spend over $3,300 per second on a voluntary and ill advised war, off budget and borrowed from China, and that doesn't even include ancillary costs like lifetime rehab, vet/widow 'benefits', ammo replacement, et al ad nauseam. Am I getting close yet? All the while, Cheney dumps his dollars for Euros (google Cheney Euros) and buys a house in Dubai. Isn't that where Halliburton moved to? Just a coincidence. Iran, here we come. That'll teach you to threaten establishing Euros as the oil denomination, thus weakening the dollar even more (it's already lower than the Canadian dollar). I would go on and on, but I've reached my quease level for the day just thinking about it. Alternet, thanks for the outlet, cheaper than therapy and more effective than scream therapy. 15 more months.....Dog help us all.

» wonderfully concise description Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: 9/11 was right on schedule Posted by: Iconoclast421
» The best website Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» No, he's not preaching to the choir. AlterNet, like Bill Maher, ... Posted by: Robert_Hoogenboom@leftfoot.com.au
Also the junta’s chance to use Hitler’s 1938 burning of the Reichstag tactic
Posted by: Lector on Oct 24, 2007 1:22 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This administration’s response to 9/11 was pure madness and they used it as trick to deflect the blame from bin Laden to Saddam since the war with Iraq was planned years before the attack and ever since then the Bushites have been riding high. And so began a return to the McCarthyism era. And the madness in the response was equally reflected in Bush’s comment that it was a “sign from God”. Already Bush had the inside track on God and if you weren’t with him you where against him and against God. How could anyone resist this Absolute Good and Absolute Evil ploy? Thus began Bush’s response in 2001 on his whitehouse.gov website, as well as the lies when he said that “Immediately following the first attack, I implemented our government's emergency response plans.” Two fighter jets from Ohio?

And following the 59 month period after 9/11, terrorist activity and violence grew by 250 per cent around the world. This was, I’m sure, beyond bin Laden’s nastiest dreams. Bin Laden and Bush needed each other to survive. For OBL Bush’s response was a dynamic for spreading new terrorist activity and for Bush a way to establish his legitimacy as a leader.

Pointless Navigation

» RE: propaganda technics Posted by: richholland
By now, anyone that believes that 9-11 just coincidentally happened at the perfect time...
Posted by: xbj on Oct 24, 2007 1:55 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...and in the perfect way for these cretins to profit in the trillions from it, is surely so far in denial they might as well die, the lie they're living is so preposterous as to be utterly worthless. Surely keeping a mom and apple pie Andy Hardy American dream lie alive is not worth the nightmare it creates for everyone else on the planet.

No matter the cost of accepting reality.

"When I became a man, I put away childish things."

And there is nothing so childish, so absolutely insane, than undeserved unearned blind patriotism perverted into fascist nationalism.

» Blind patriotism Posted by: Cathyc
He's a Go* Damn Monster!
Posted by: ~Fiona~ on Oct 24, 2007 2:40 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm so sick of seeing his stupidly smug face... It'll be Soooo Glad when the world throws his arrogant ass in a prison hole so deep he Never gets out!

Monster!

» RE: He's a Go* Damn Monster! Posted by: Moira61
» RE: He's a Go* Damn Monster! Posted by: hagwind
» RE: He's a Go* Damn Monster! Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: He's a Go* Damn Monster! Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: He's a Go* Damn Monster! Posted by: Moira61
» RE: He's a Go* Damn Monster! Posted by: blitzmesser
wonderfully concise description
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy on Oct 24, 2007 3:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
i bet you're now on the 'no fly' list

» RE: wonderfully concise description Posted by: Constitutionalist75
Goodness, there's that fake plane again ...
Posted by: Robert_Hoogenboom@leftfoot.com.au on Oct 24, 2007 4:07 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... next to year headline: a picture of George Bush with that fake plane again, about to bury itself into a WTC tower, which, of course, is made of playdough! You see, a real plane, being made of aluminium ("aluminum", you call it), flying into a real WTC tower, would have smashed to smithereens against the concrete and steel wall, cockpit and wings crumpling and fuselage (body) and tail falling, tumbling, straight down, onto the grounds outside the building. Instead, the fake plane, shown "live" by FoxNews, CNN and all the rest of them, goes straight through the wall and buries itself intact in the building as though that was made of playdough (in fact, the building heals itself over the gash caused by the right wing). Tsk, tsk, you Americans, passing off these fake photographs and films to the world as though they were real! I'm reminded of those fake photographs and films of your fake moonlandings! :-)

Never mind, we still love you (except for Bush and the Neocons). My wife is American. :-)

Robert Hoogenboom
Sydney, Australia

» RE: Goodness, there's that fake plane again ... Posted by: Robert_Hoogenboom@leftfoot.com.au
» And I'm at least 5.5% wrong Posted by: hagwind
» Disrespectful Posted by: debjbaba
» NOT Disrespectful! Posted by: war_on_tara
» Grave disrespect Posted by: Cathyc
» That is not a video of a plane hitting a WTC tower. Posted by: Robert_Hoogenboom@leftfoot.com.au
» Intersting thought, Russian satellite records! Posted by: Robert_Hoogenboom@leftfoot.com.au
» Good Try LeftWright! Posted by: gary_7vn
» Absolutely right, Channing Posted by: Robert_Hoogenboom@leftfoot.com.au
» Needless to say that if it weren't for you Americans Posted by: Robert_Hoogenboom@leftfoot.com.au
» Interesting. Posted by: Robert_Hoogenboom@leftfoot.com.au
» RE: Interesting (continued) Posted by: Robert_Hoogenboom@leftfoot.com.au
» Goodness! Thanks, Snideelf! Posted by: Robert_Hoogenboom@leftfoot.com.au
GWOT now art of terrorism
Posted by: robchapman on Oct 24, 2007 4:19 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
With Kurdish seperatists attacking and killing Turkish soldiers in Turkey and fleeing to Iraq, we have the spectacle of American supported terrorists attacking a NATO army.

Can anyone question any longer the futility and ineffectiveness of our war in Iraq?

» RE: GWOT now art of terrorism Posted by: richholland
» RE: GWOT now art of terrorism Posted by: dennisinmemphis
The enemy was always there: Before, during and after the cold war
Posted by: Perfectclue on Oct 24, 2007 4:29 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The only critique I have with Chalmers, and I think he is one of the best, is that giving even the credit to the Cold war as an enemy, separate from the generic failure, of all national regressions, failures of the democratic revolution, socialist revolutions is to miss ideologically what makes up the class nationalism or even the bureaucratic nationalism of the Eastern Block mislabeled "Communism", although I would agree with the specific term Stalinism, and its more generic ideological term, "class subordinated national revolutions."

Putting it into this ideological and historical framework would help explain the larger picture, that Napoleon, and the Western democratic revolutions, reflected and pointed to the same failures of the socialist revolutions, democracy, under not just Stalinism, but all subordinated national revolutions, a historical implication that alll democratic revolutiions are doomed to fail so long as the class forces dominate on the international level, and can corrupt democratic and social revolutions, on a national level, and even between national levels.

The struggle of the Cold War should be reframed, reconstructed to the failure, yet dominant crippled social development of class forces on civil society. The generic class deformations on civil society was correctly noted and categorized by the Ancient Greeks in class terms, who invented the words, oligarchy, plutocracy, still used today.
However, Plato, did not realize at the time, that these same generic class forces could degenerate not only his utopian attempt to graft democracy onto existing class patriarchy, but would also deform the middle layers, its intellectuals, political class, subordinated to the oligarchy, hence his failure to succeed with his (class) Republic, which reproduced the gaps between social theory, universal standards, and class degeneration, that ultimately created his "noble lies" and the early development of class ideology.

The link to this early failure thousands of years ago gives us the clue to why all democratic and social revolutions have failed so far, and that the ideological separation between the West and mislabeled "Communist" and national revolutions is false. The generic class corruption of middle layers, subordination to class forces and oligarchy, within the state, mirrors the same failures, of the corruption, economic strangulation, subordination of revolutionary middle layers, who have thrown out their class masters, only to be subordinated by other class states, class empires, external to their national revolutions, between class states, that reproduces these same parallel failures of generic class corruption, so long as class forces dominate on the international level.

This larger historical and ideological view would then place the enemy, class society, class subordination, class ideologies, class elites, and their hierarchies, as always existing, before socialism, before capitalism, as a class mechanism, long term historical class lever in place, for most of our 5000 plus years of patriarchy, the first form of class society, that shifted the social lever, historical lever of egalitarian and matriarchical relations, from its neural position, social center, to its class center, where all class forms are to the right, hence the false designation of the "left", which holds the true social and moral center, on which a fully developed middle class, without class masters, oligarchy was the moral and social basis promoted during the Enlightenment, and after its betrayal by the class liberals, reconstructed in the Post Enlightenment, by the socialist movement and Karl Marx.

Therefore the enemy has always been there the class failure of our civil societies, and the false dichotomy between crippled national revolutions, either Western or Eastern blocks, reveals the deep failure ideologically and historically to understand it.

» Don Barleone Posted by: Iconoclast421
» REPLY TO MARVINBEATY: Posted by: Perfectclue
Hank
Posted by: hankgeorge on Oct 24, 2007 4:54 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For heavens sake, quit vexing over how we could have failed to know about 9/11 or intercept the rogue planes. Study what happened and if you still cannot recognize an intentional "stand down" when you see one, then you need some basic education. This country has not failed to intercept a single potentially rogue plane for years...spotless record...then we failed on 4 on one day, including one airborne for > 90 minutes. Open your eyes, folks.

» RE: Hank Posted by: richholland
» RE: Hank Posted by: VZEQICVA
» The best website Posted by: Constitutionalist75
9/11 Was An Inside Job, YOU DUMMIES!
Posted by: starhelix on Oct 24, 2007 4:55 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When are people in positions to do something about the greatest con job in human history going to get a clue and expose the simple fact the 9/11 attacks were an inside job? There's sufficient evidence in the public record to demonstrate beyond any reasonable doubt the Bush story about 9/11 was a gigantic lie. The Twin Towers were blown up. They didn't fall down due to fire. Guiliani desecrated a crime scene and sent the evidence off to China. WHY? WTC 7 wasn't hit by a plane. Why did it fall? WHY? How come to this day NO ONE has been held accountable for the alleged lapse in our impregnable half trillion dollar defense and intelligence shield. WHY? Why haven't the suspicious Bush family connections to security at the Twin Towers been fully investigated? WHY? For that matter, why haven't the clear and decades-long ties between the Bush and bin Laden families been fully investigated, as well. WHY? There are hundreds if not thousands of important and unanswered questions about 9/11, but no one in major media wants the job of exposing this obvious charade. Are we supposed to believe a bunch of Arabs, who didn't live here, who barely spoke the language, who've never established any ability to fly jumbo jets, were led by some dude named bin Laden from a cave in Afghanistan, completely eluded our defense shield and used only box cutters to hijack four jumbo jets and executed their evil plans flawlessly? No second-grader would believe this ridiculous tale. So, why do so many of our vaunted press and pundits place any credibility in this story? The Bush mob has never told the truth to the American people...EVER! So, why do you believe this criminal excuse? Whether we want to believe our own government attacked our people or not isn't the issue. A cursory examination of the facts dismisses Bush's balderbleep. The real question is do we want to continue this massive fraud indefinitely or do we want to summon the uncommon courage to face the fact the 9/11 Bush story is a pack of lies and do whatever we can to expose the criminal element in our government who were responsible for these heinous acts? Eisenhower warned us about the military industrial media incarceration complex (MIMIC). Now, these monsters are running our government. So, what are WE going to do about it? Whether we like it or not only the TRUTH will preserve our republic and set us free. Fairy tales simply won't do.

The Administration's response to 9-11 had been in planning BEFORE they were installed into office
Posted by: xbj on Oct 24, 2007 5:43 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Karen Kwiatkowski in "Why We Fight" and a multitude of others WHO WERE THERE have stated that the planning for the Iraq/Iran Mideast war commenced from the very first day of the Adminstration, if not before, and certainly long before 9-11.

At the very least they knew 9-11 was coming, although they pretended throughout the entire year of 2001 to be utterly incompetent by ignoring every warning by every other country and intelligence agency on the planet.

Inside job? Impossible to be otherwise. Too convenient, and they were too opportunistic in their response for it to be otherwise. Suddenly an inept Administration goes whole hog into very effectively completely controlling the media and selling a useless unwinnable war to a nation that went through Viet Nam?

Leopards don't change their spots. Ever.

People who support them (and they themselves) just can't have it both ways. Either they were utterly incompetent and let it happen via their incompetence, or they planned and implemented it from the word Go.

Either way they are 100% culpable and responsible. And in a world without Diebold they would have been history in 2004 based on their incompetence and malfeasance alone.

And now they think China and Russia will sit idly by as they nuke Iran. They are not only the worst treasonous bastards America was ever cursed with, they're completely out of their minds with desperation and may well end the noble experiment that was the United States of America once and for all.

» Bush knows perfectly well Posted by: Constitutionalist75
This article reeks as much as the Popular Mechanics Debunking
Posted by: dustdevil on Oct 24, 2007 6:04 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Any article that starts off on the premise that Al Qaeda attacked us on 911 is a waste of time.

Most readers of Alternet know the Bush administration has never shown any hard evidence that Bin Laden or Al Qaeda was involved. And if they were, it was only as patsies to give cover for the Neocons.

If you wade through all the pseudo-intellectual crap in this article, the only worthwhile paragraph is at the end, where it is suggested that we must do away with the empire.

A much better subject instead of all those wasted words would be a detailed plan of how we should go about dissolving the empire.

» spineless propaganda recepticle Posted by: Iconoclast421
» Exactly, Dustdevil! Posted by: Robert_Hoogenboom@leftfoot.com.au
Do you think anything will really change?
Posted by: Wish on Oct 24, 2007 6:13 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I hope so, but I doubt it.
Too many Americans are too apathetic to do anything, and are more interested in the next American Idol than grand (grotesk) events that change the world (and certainly not for the better). Whining about taxes, while absurd amounts go to the militaristic industry, war profitering criminals like Haliburton, etc. Cheering when propagandistic blahblah blurts phrases again like "America the great", "God bless America", "Freedom", "Democracy", "It is needed for you safety" etc etc etc. While freedom is diminished all the time. All for the illusion of 'safety'. You have so much more to fear from your own government, and your own inhabitants, than from any socalled terrorist.
Authority is not something to take for granted, but as my father always said, authority needs to be questioned. That is one of your duties.
Turn off your bloody tv's, get your heads out of your behinds, and start showing interest in the world around you. Stop being so egotistic and start understanding that this world cán be paradise, by living and working together. That what you do there in the US affects the whole world. You are not alone.
Most of the world happens outside the US.
One of these days the US may be declared bankrupt, the dollar will no longer be the leading international currency (and rightfully so).
And stop being so bloody righteous, especially when it comes to 'god'. How can it be that those who claim the loudest that Jesus is their savior, are those who are the strongest supporters of the most narrowminded, violent, oppressive, backward and conservative idea's?? Jesus was the biggest progressive of all, preaching peace and understanding and harmony. God, if you believe in such an entity or not, created an everchanging world. The socalled 'religious' people keep fighting to never let anything change. That must be why they cannot stand any criticism and have no self-criticism, and always feel 'insulted' by anything and attack anyone who says anything against them: they do not have the guts and courage and responsibility to ever take a,oook at themselves and live in constant fear that they might be living a lie. No, how much easier it is to always accuse other and impose your limited and destructive ways of live onto others.

Change?
It starts with an honest look in the mirror.

And where the hell are those "small government" advocates when you need them the most?
Posted by: maxpayne on Oct 24, 2007 6:55 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'd like to see the same "Libertarians" who call for reducing government to call for an ABOLITION of the CIA, FBI, FCC, FTC, NSA, DEA, Warfare, Corporate Welfare, etc ...

» A Plan Posted by: Iconoclast421
Excellent article...
Posted by: Captainmagic on Oct 24, 2007 7:24 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I must admit to not having read any of the books mentioned in the article but then I don't really have to. In my small world, my colleagues and I often talked about cause and effect. Just as we did when, as soldiers faced with the task of accomplishing a mission....You pay your enemy with a certain respect because you are looking for a successful outcome for everyone. Clumsy just does not look good on your curriculum vitae. Barbarism under fire was as low as you could go and still is. Unleashing gratuitous amounts of firepower to achieve a result is a part of the American way...Brought up on too many western shoot em ups perhaps, who knows..a gun cabinet as a standard option for the consummate householder is seen as humorous by the rest of the world... A party trick for travelling Americans is for them to be first of all welcomed formally then enquiringly asked, could we see their gun...

The article does not seem to mention that which always presented us with intrigue but I guess would be outlined in the books he regards and that is of cause the real, total, and only reason this form of devastation was visited upon the poor peoples of Iraq and as we have always known. Cause and effect asked us, "what happens when the behemoth runs out of fuel".....OIL......Answer... It shakes and rattles every door and window until it finds one loose and then it invites itself in and becomes the parasite that it is. A wolf in sheep's clothing maybe, but we never saw the insane wolf....especially one, in a once prestigeous country as America...but there you are...America has fallen...well done for a while, people.

We wait to repair the Hero Iraqi's. We will be there for them.
One word for the Iraqi's ......'UNITE'.....and then it is done.

Captain OUT

BUSH SEIZED AN OPPORTUNITY
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Oct 24, 2007 7:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unlike Roosevelt who had a calming effect on the nation on 12/7/1941, Bush cashed in on the the fear and hysteria. Constant reminders of what might happen next. We would never again be 'fine'. To catch the 'evil doers' we all became suspects. He hasn't caught many of them, but he knows who I talk to on the phone and he can read what I've just written. Oh, the war in Iraq: Somebody has to get rich in the process. Hurricanes, fires are just a pain in his butt. And he's a pain in mine. Thanks, ANNA

» RE: BUSH SEIZED AN OPPORTUNITY Posted by: willymack
BUSH SEIZED AN OPPORTUNITY
Posted by: VZEQICVA on Oct 24, 2007 7:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Unlike Roosevelt who had a calming effect on the nation on 12/7/1941, Bush cashed in on the the fear and hysteria. Constant reminders of what might happen next. We would never again be 'fine'. To catch the 'evil doers' we all became suspects. He hasn't caught many of them, but he knows who I talk to on the phone and he can read what I've just written. Oh, the war in Iraq: Somebody has to get rich in the process. Hurricanes, fires are just a pain in his butt. And he's a pain in mine. Thanks, ANNA

» RE: BUSH SEIZED AN OPPORTUNITY Posted by: richholland
Autistic is NOT an Insult
Posted by: EKSwitaj on Oct 24, 2007 7:47 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
[I]f the misbegotten Iraq war proves anything, it is the foolhardiness of allowing an autistic clique that reads its own newspapers and watches its own cable news channel to decide, without outsider input, where to expend American blood and treasure

Bush and his cronies are about as far from autistic as you can get actually. Besides being used in a sense that is largely absent of content and thus an example of poor writing, "autistic" here reinforces the idea that autism is something shameful. This is every bit as unacceptable as racist or sexist language, and it is discriminatory language, so now I'm wondering why articles posted to Alternet don't have to comply with the guidelines for comments.

» RE: Autistic is NOT an Insult Posted by: richholland
gandalf85
Posted by: GANDALF84 on Oct 24, 2007 8:04 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Fake plane" It takes a playdough mind to even think of it. But, will someone please explain the falling of the third building, no plane hit it. The films show all the signs of a controlled implosion, as do both towers. Follow the money.

» Answer my objection already, will ya?! Posted by: Robert_Hoogenboom@leftfoot.com.au
» No Plane here either! Posted by: gary_7vn
» I'm glad you said that. So it's steel against steel, right? Posted by: Robert_Hoogenboom@leftfoot.com.au
Let's get real
Posted by: Democritus on Oct 24, 2007 9:05 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Whenever a government acts in secrecy, as the present Administration has done, conspiracy theories abound when something goes amiss. Surely, say those who say 9/11 was "an inside job," Cheney, the neocons, Rumsfeld, the FBI, and the CIA couldn't have been so boneheadedly stupid as not to see that some such attack was coming. But yes, they were that stupid. All you need to do is read Tim Weiner's Legacy of Ashes to see just how woefully inept the CIA has been throughout its history, and how pathetically ignorant and petty our past presidents have been (including how JFK apparently signed off, along with RFK, on assassinating Castro). So once we get a person as ignorant as George Bush into the White House, do you think he's capable of surrounding himself with a real brain trust? You think?

Chalmers Johnson tells it the way it is. Our problems wrestling with the mantle of democratic superpower have been with us since the end of WWII. Over that time--as Eisenhower warned--the military/industrial complex has grown larger and more powerful. Our politicians cater to those in corporate boardrooms. The World Bank, the Council on Foreign Relations, and the all the other globalistic "think tanks," have made national elections a farce. The parties in power take turns replacing one another, but the overall outlook remains the same.

People like Dennis Kucinich are laughed at when proposing a "Department of Peace." The money instead flows to the Giulianis, the Clintons, the Romneys--whoever will continue to promote the status quo.

No matter who among the major candidates wins the presidency, there will still be a push for a missile system in Europe--not to discourage "terrorism," but because it's good for the defense industry. Until the American public begins to realize what's being done with their tax money, it will be used in ways that are really counter to the national interest.

» Status Quo Posted by: Cathyc
Aquarius
Posted by: alterstate on Oct 24, 2007 9:08 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Aside from providing security to Israel, the war on Iraq was never for three numbers (9/11) but for three letters (OIL).

9/11 Conspiracy Talk Is Pointless
Posted by: InsertNameHere on Oct 24, 2007 9:20 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can agree that there are many unanswered questions about the 9/11 attacks but I just can't buy into a conspiracy. This administration can barely muster the executive smarts to control a small part of Baghdad and yet we are supposed to think that they orchestrated something on this scale? They are being evasive and secretive about the facts surrounding 9/11 but that's par for the course, we are talking government here.

Even if the elusive 'smoking gun' were found, what would that prove? We found the smoking gun of the Iraq War, in fact, we found a few: No links between Iraq and Al Qaeda, No WMD, a war of choice that goes against international law, but where are the revelations, impeachments, war crimes tribunals? The media is oddly silent considering the facts. Where is the Democratic controlled congress? They aren't taking steps to remove and prosecute these criminals, they are talking about how they can do it better. They don't see anything fundamentally wrong with the response to 9/11, just the way the response was prosecuted.

So what makes anyone think that, even if they could prove a 9/11 conspiracy, the media or the law won't just refuse to talk about it like they do with the truth about Iraq? It's a waste of time.

As for proportionate response, well, anyone who has seen enough pictures of Iraqi men, women and children with their guts sprayed across the street doesn't have to think to hard about that. There are websites that quote the numbers, I don't need to do it here. 9/11 is trumped up as the ultimate tragedy but I'm willing to bet that more people die needlessly per year in your vicious health care system, or in the back streets of your ghettos than died on that day.

» RE: 9/11 Conspiracy Talk Is Pointless Posted by: Candleinheart
» SMOKE WHAT?? Posted by: Iconoclast421
» ??? Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: ??? Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: ??? Posted by: war_on_tara
» RE: 9/11 Conspiracy Talk Is Pointless Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: 9/11 Conspiracy Talk Is Pointless Posted by: ConnecttheDots
» RE: 9/11 Conspiracy Talk Is Pointless Posted by: InsertNameHere
» RE: mick3 Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: mick3 Posted by: Lauren
» RE: mick3 Posted by: jbur816
Doomed to repeat history's mistakes?
Posted by: monkeywrench on Oct 24, 2007 9:38 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From the article:

"Despite a slew of carefully researched and insightful books on the subject, the reason why the United States responded to the al Qaeda attack by invading Iraq remains to some extent an enigma."

Enigma?! Earlier in the article it was pointed out that before 9/11 the Bush/neocons were intensely interested in creating an american empire and in securing the third largest oil reserves in the world. There is no enigma in that, no matter what is said by a "can't-see-the-forest-for-the-trees" academic.

As for the 9/11 debacle: beyond the purely physical evidence of the behavior of the buildings when they fell and the molten residue that could only have come from Thermite explosions (aspects of the tragedy that have received far too little exposure – possibly because the laws of physics put the lie to the administration's B.S. story), 9/11 was timed perfectly to initiate a power grab by a feckless president (and his puppet masters) and pave the way for the perpetuation of the military-industrial complex, which stood to see its profits decimated after the fall of the Soviet Union. In this way, 9/11 served exactly the same function as the Burning of the Reichstag by the Nazis in the 1930's. The only question remaining at this point is: Will we allow the same result to play itself out? Judging by the performance of our impotent congress, apparently we will. If so, then america, democracy – and ourselves – are doomed.

» RE: Doomed to repeat history's mistakes? Posted by: Constitutionalist75
There Is A Way
Posted by: Candleinheart on Oct 24, 2007 10:07 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One message boarder says we, the People, are too apathetic about stopping the stealing of our American way and what is going 'down' as they say. Others say the Democrats have failed in stopping the Iraq fiasco calling Pelosi and Reid and others wimps, spineless. Many write letters that our senators and congressmen have failed us, that the will of the People has been ignored. I have read thousands of message board comments, read hundreds of articles on Alternet, Truthout, Common Dreams, etc. I suppose I'm as informed as the rest of you. I think, as you do, what can we do? Many speak of feeling ashamed, saddened where our country goes. the Bush and Co given every name in the book, we know the evils, the lies, the corruption, yet the funding continues despite our wishes, words, wailings, and whinings. On NPR I heard a Washington comment, "In the end the president will get the funding he needs." Seems no one can stop the continued abuse and neglect of The people's wishes. I believe I have the solution for all The people. NO ONE IN THIS COUNTRY PAYS THEIR TAXES NEXT APRIL! If THAT doesn't wake someone up, I don't know what will. No deaths. No money spent. Think about it. We've GOT to take charge ourselves. Enough is enough.

» RE: There Is A Way Posted by: Lauren
» RE: There Is A Way Posted by: Constitutionalist75
It failed because it was supposed too.
Posted by: jeffrey7 on Oct 24, 2007 10:30 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Back during the 'golden days' of Reagan/Bush the Taliban were our pals. They were fighting the Russians,us arming the Taliban and Bin Ladin and anyone lese that would take our guns and cash really made the Wall come down.
9/11,besides being a great metaphor for everything evil,was in reality a 'tool' to raise American Fighting Spirit. The very thing we did'nt have during Vietnam. But brother we were damn sure going to have it now!! Knowing there was an emminate attack and letting it go down is what makes this administration complicitus in the attack. That's why the response was so shitty. Could 9/11 be stopped? YES!!!!!
The so-called attack is the direct result of the World's worst foriegn policy making. Going back all the lives of those now living,and beyond. 'America the Government' respects no one. Nothing. If you make a gun,they make a cannon. Make a Nuke,we'll make one that can go right up your ass and your's alone. it's a money thing. Every calamity known to man has become a modern financial boom.Drought,famine,disease,war and natural disasters all
make vast amounts of cash,gets rid of some over populating,
and story ops like mad.
We Americans,humanity as a whole really, have the capacity to much greater aspireations. We can create a better life on Earth. We must give up the worship of Gold as God.
The greedy never take care of anything except themselves,they start wars,create strife and advance deprivations all the while making themselves look like a blessing to aspire to.
We are,albiet totally self aware,completely insignificant to the Earth. With the ability to swallow entire costal regions in seconds,we are truly speck on terra firma's windshield.
The hell we've wrought on humanity is nothing compared to what's been done to the Earth. We've 9/11'd the Earth into a poisoned ball in space. Are we to continue on this same path?
Will those who come after us look back kindly on how we've given them a World still dangerous with the will of Tyrants and raped and poisoned the environment for a fist full of dollars? I don't think you want to give this ball of shit over to your Grandchildren any more than I do. But to do that we're going to have to respond stronger,faster and more properly than any 9/11.
Jeffrey7 for Prez

Are You Sure You Read The Same Content of Article as I
Posted by: Turkiye on Oct 24, 2007 11:54 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
3,000 died in the Towers on 9/11. 1.2 million Iraqi's murdered and I do not have stats on Afghanistan. Pease, buy a Dictionary, Thesaurus and do some intense research on anything that has nary a thing to do with the MIB, JFK's assassination or Scully and Mulder. least we forget Ruby murdering Lee Harvey Oswald. K? K.

I Am A Dolt
Posted by: Turkiye on Oct 24, 2007 12:01 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Please, ignore my post prior to this one. I hit Post a Comment Instead Of reply to comment, this was meant for the first post, I just made typos, pardon..

» RE: I Am A Dolt Posted by: Constitutionalist75
Pentagon plane
Posted by: militaryhater on Oct 24, 2007 1:28 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why doesn't anyone question the plane, that 'supposedly hit the Pentagon'? There is no images, no plane parts...nada. Nothing. The lie is there as no plane hit it. A missle had to have been fired in by an F-16 flying low. The hole is too small and looks more like a hole left by a missle than a plane. Wing parts would be laying outside the building..nada...no parts in pictures taken afterwards. The video from a survellience camera on site, has missing frames showing the plane hitting..why is that? Well, because no damn plane hit it. Faked! Also, wow...it just happened to hit the side that was 'under construction' so not very many people were killed. This is the biggest scam of all! No witnesses have ever been featured on the news.

This incident made it easy for Bush and Cheney to start their campaign. All the pilots came from Saudi Arabia...The Bush family is friends with the Bin Laden family. It all adds up to me. The only people that deny it think too much of their government and it is too hard on their conscious to fathom they live in a country that's President could kill like that. Well, he is not phased by the death in the Middle East, so taking down the towers wouldn't phase him either. Besides, his brother's company was in charge of security at the World Trade Center..how convenient...

» RE: Pentagon plane Posted by: kellysgarden
» RE: Pentagon plane Posted by: MrAllen
The Clintons
Posted by: militaryhater on Oct 24, 2007 1:33 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WIMPS! After hearing Bill's comment at money raising dinner he gave in the Minneapolis, MN area, he told a heckler in the crowd who screamed the 9/11 incident was an 'inside job', Bill said..'shame on you!' My wife knew someone that was burned over ...etc. He doesn't support this either. This tells me if he and his wife get in the White house, they will continue the Bush agenda and never seek impeachment charges or any kind of charges against Bush or Cheney...just like good ole Bill did as President..didn't pursue any investigations or bring charges against old man Bush and his guns for hostages and other criminal activities. Just remember, the Clintons are with the Bush people...I don't support them. Hillary should run Republican as that is her true colors!!! They will Continue the WAR people of America...to support her is to support four more years of HELL!!

There has been no attack after the first one the US since Bush became president
Posted by: arshi on Oct 24, 2007 1:38 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why can't everyone just understand that we are safer now than before 9-11.

Ten steps to turn America into a dictatorship
Posted by: Robert_Hoogenboom@leftfoot.com.au on Oct 24, 2007 2:35 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Saw a brilliant lecture by Naomi Wolf last night, in which she explains the 10 steps whereby a democracy is turned into a Fascist state or dictatorship. She points out that what is happening in your country today is exactly what was happening in Germany, Russia and Mussolini's Italy. Wake up, America, and find the courage to resist!

Robert Hoogenboom
Sydney, Australia

Now THAT's some readin' material!
Posted by: DaBear on Oct 24, 2007 2:36 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'd like to read more about this:

There is, I believe, only one solution to the crisis we face. The American people must make the decision to dismantle both the empire that has been created in their name and the huge, still growing military establishment that undergirds it. It is a task at least comparable to that undertaken by the British government when, after World War II, it liquidated the British Empire.

Anyone know any good readin' on this topic of how the British gov. liquidated the Empire?

What would that look like here in 'Merkuh in the 21st century? I can't imagine how we'd survive such a dissolution by force of will... I can imagine how it'll happen against our will (petrocollapse, climate change, etc.). But I'd like to begin imagining dismantling the U.S. Empire, frankly. That's where we "the Left" need to go now.

Chalmers "Response to 9/11" is a CROCK
Posted by: stryder on Oct 24, 2007 3:38 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In effect, Chalmers upholds the official 9/11 narrative that CIA-Saudi created and funded “Al-Qaeda” pulled off 9/11 and that the so-called “left” was mysteriously complicit in “American Imperialism”.

Chalmers’ status quo bunk account points to a more or less corrupt and venal Keystone Cops show from 9/11 to phony “war on terror”. In effect – it’s the old Dumbo defense.

A host of genuine patriots do not agree.

Of course anyone with a clue knows that Washington and the entire mainstream media was onboard and behind the cover-up at 9/11 with its phony “war on terror” aftermath. The fact is, Afghanistan and especially a criminal Iraq War of invasion and conquest were hardly acts of random incompetence or some minor “short-circuiting of normal constitutional procedures”. Even CIA asset Osama “Tim Osman” Bin Laden would no doubt agree the whole thing was a deadly sting – if he were still alive.

As to the vicious farce at 9/11 – even Chalmers Johnson’s fellow CIA veterans have challenged the official 9/11 fairytale.

Examples:

CIA veteran Ray McGovern:
"I think at simplest terms, there's a cover-up. The 9/11 Report is a joke."

CIA and U.S. Marine Corp veteran Robert David Steele:
"I am forced to conclude that 9/11 was at a minimum allowed to happen as a pretext for war. … I have to tell anyone who cares to read this: I believe it. I believe it enough to want a full investigation that passes the smell test of the 9/11 families as well as objective outside observers."

CIA NIO officer William Christison:
“I think you almost have to look at the 9/11 Commission Report as a joke and not a serious piece of analysis at all."

CIA Division Chief Melvin Goodman:
"The final [9/11] report is ultimately a coverup. I don't know how else to describe it."

CIA Mid East Specialist Robert Baer:
"Until we get a complete, honest, transparent investigation …, we will never know what happened on 9/11."

Mad man
Posted by: raywigton on Oct 24, 2007 4:19 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's a no brainer. But don't believe a bunch of conspiracy theories. The mad man has killed hundreds of thousands of people. Impeach and imprisson the bastard and all of his cronies.

Chimpy and his handlers let it happen
Posted by: snideelf on Oct 24, 2007 5:02 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't go along with the extreme paranoia conspiracy theories that explosives were set inside the towers, but I will go so far as to say that the hijackers were most likely paid assassins.

That is why the chimpy administration sat on their hands because they knew it was coming.

Why else would this administration be the most secretive of all in the history of the U.S.

Obviously they are hiding something.

Plus, the Bush crime family has close ties with the Saudis. That's a clue.
Most of the hijackers were Saudis.

The set up was to use the attacks as an excuse for war and go in and try to claim the Iraq oil fields.
Which I am sure the Saudis were looking to cut a deal with the U.S. and Big Oil over Iraq oil.

War profiteering was the largest motivator.
A chance to make obscene amounts of money off the lives of U.S. and Iraq citizens and American and allied troops.

Tom Englehardt is full of shit on 9/11
Posted by: johndoraemi on Oct 24, 2007 6:45 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do not believe this "liberal" approved spin on 9/11:

"When the Clintonistas, on their way out of the White House, warned them about al Qaeda, they paid next to no attention. "

That's their story. You believe them?

The facts show a different picture. Did Bush "ignore" that warning that "Al Qaeda" was going to hijack a plane and crash it into the Genoa G8 summit in July '01?

No. It wasn't "ignored" Tom. Not at all. Bush was moved from his high rise hotel. AA missiles were installed around the Genoa airport.

No one talked about it, with all the tight security and blackout on certain news stories (ever since). They didn't talk about the "dozens" of warnings from our allies that these attacks were expected well before 9/11, many warnings printed in the open press, though not in the US press. Surprise, surprise.


"Non-state actors were for wusses."

Willful ignorance is despicable. You're coming up with fictional excuses, when you refuse to look at and digest THE FACTS OF 9/11. You've been bombarded with angry communications from thousands upon thousands of people for 6 years, Tom. You know exactly what I'm talking about.


"When the CIA carefully presented the President with a one-page, knock-your-socks-off warning on August 6, 2001 that had the screaming headline, "Bin Laden determined to strike in U.S.," they ignored it."

Did they? It wasn't one page. The declassified version is longer than that. The original was reported to be 11 pages. This was also one of many other warnings.

The gullibility of these "alternative" commentators strains credulity.


" Bush and his top officials were, as it happened, strangely adrift until September 11, 2001;"

Were they? With war plans for Afghanistan on Bush's desk. This after they threatened the Taliban with a "carpet of gold, or a carpet of bombs,' if they didn't get their oil pipeline.

State Blog

Continued, Tom Eng.
Posted by: johndoraemi on Oct 24, 2007 6:47 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
" then, they were panicked and terrified -- until they realized that their moment had come to hijack the plane of state;"

You should write fantasy fiction. This demonstrable fairy tale has been the "left" response since the beginning. It does not stand up to scrutiny.

These people wrote of the "catalyzing and catastrophic event, like a New Pearl Harbor." They then took numerous steps to insure that their Pearl Harbor would not only go off -- and not be stopped by FBI and CIA officers who wanted to protect America -- but they thought through the necessary "ACT OF WAR" strike at the Pentagon. This removed the crime from the judicial system and put it under "Global War on Terror TM" white house control.

The Pentagon strike is very fishy indeed, coupled in particular with the MIA 'commander in chief." Treasonously sitting there in Pet Goat land, he "ignored," (THERE'S THAT BOGUS CLAIM AGAIN) the alleged message from Andrew Card: "America is under attack."

This arguably "aided the enemy" and qualifies as high treason under our constitution. If the Commander in Chief had bothered to check in with the Pentagon (in a legitimate way) they would certainly have been put on notice BEFORE THE ATTACK.

Next we have Cheney lying about what he did in the PEOC, and Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta basically exposing Cheney's entire story as a fraud, and treasonous. They knew all about the "plane coming into the Pentagon" although the 9/11 Commission Report lies about this fact.

"so they clambered aboard, and like the Cold Warriors they were, went after Saddam."

They went after the second biggest oil reserves on the planet, permanent military bases, and a torching of the UN charter and article 6 of the consitution.

In their own PNAC document they admit that the need to invade Iraq "trascends the regime" of Saddam.

I hate gatekeepers.

They mislead numerous people who would otherwise have a fuller understanding that we are being ruled by treasonous, murderous tyrants who kill American civilians if they feel they must. They'll do it again.

John Doraemi publishes Crimes of the State Blog

xtiml
Posted by: xtiml on Oct 25, 2007 2:46 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
the depth of the treason is mind boggling. from the foundations tax free, to the laws they pass. we are headed for human disaster if we do not put a block on these elite controllers.they have had their way for thousands a years time to stop it. we have free energy, we have cures for disease we have enough for all and niot ruin our mother earth in the bargain, but they are blocking all this and blaming us for earth's degradation. then why do i get adverts galore in mail every day? why do they keep developments from being used? and why are they so greedy and murderous/ because they are psychopaths is why.

sum ting wong here
Posted by: xtiml on Oct 25, 2007 2:48 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
every modern war of america's has been contrived and america was et up to be the new tyranny for the world. go see allan watt website.jordan maxwell, jackie petru, others linked from these

Oh, Lordy, this is such a tiresome thread
Posted by: HSencillo on Oct 25, 2007 9:44 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Geez, take this 9-11 inside job stuff somewhere else besides Alternet. PLEASE. I'm not saying that this stuff is not important to discuss, but not here. It's been jawed to death here by far too many guessers promoting too little grasp of basic science and a little too much beer.

» go to the DailyKos Posted by: gretavo
Incompetence post 9/11 indicates this was NOT a 'false flag attack'
Posted by: counterpoint on Oct 25, 2007 11:25 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Chalmers highlights the incompetence of the administration's handling of the events. It's not a pretty picture.
It's also an argument that makes a conspiracy rather unlikely.
If you were to manufacture or allow an event on such a scale, why attacks in NYC and DC?
Why not something that directly implicates Saddam Hussein in such a way that the international community had given green light for attacks?
Why look like cowards, run around like chicken?
Why expose Giuliani to criticism for sending over 100 firemen to their death because their failing communications gear could not talk to the police (who managed to pull out when police choppers had seen indications for buckling and collapse 8 minutes before it happened)?
Makes no sense.
I blame the conspiracy people for trying to pick imaginary fruit, rather than the low hanging fruit.
They are so easily proven wrong.
It is impossible to rig giant skyscrapers in secret with explosives in a short amount of time.
It is impossible for explosions on such a scale not to show a clear footprint on seismographs (no such tremors were registered on all regional seismographs).
For details download Ryan Mackey's recent refutation of David Ray Griffin: polite, concise, scientific, 200 pages, free.
'On Debunking 9/11 Debunking. Examining Dr. David Ray Griffin’s Latest Criticism of the NIST World Trade Center Investigation
There is no need for a new investigation on this front. I'd much rather see progressive efforts poured into indicting the Bush gang for waging aggressive war, and see them tried at Nuremberg.

» 36 hr power down: long debunked Posted by: counterpoint
» Dave Frasca Posted by: LeftWright
We need to know our domestic enemies
Posted by: DrColes on Oct 27, 2007 1:52 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As we struggle to know our domestic enemies. No, matter your political party affiliation, and setting aside your thoughts on issues. We all need to remember what it is to be an American Citizen. We need to make sure our elected representatives obey their Oath of Office and keep their Oath of Allegiance. See http://tinyurl.com/2znnvl Know whom you are voting for.

Poor logic and poor character of "debunkers"
Posted by: johndoraemi on Oct 29, 2007 1:46 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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