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Government Surveillance Threatens Your Freedom, Even If You Have Nothing To Hide

By John Dean, FindLaw.com. Posted October 20, 2007.


The case against expanding surveillance powers for a White House that's already out of control.

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"I've got nothing to hide, so electronic surveillance doesn't bother me. To the contrary, I'm delighted that the Bush Administration is monitoring calls and electronic traffic on a massive scale, because catching terrorists is far more important that worrying about the government's listening to my phone calls, or reading my emails." So the argument goes. It is a powerful one that has seduced too many people.

Millions of Americans buy this logic, and in accepting it, believe they are doing the right thing for themselves, their family, and their friends, neighbors, community and country. They are sadly wrong. If you accept this argument, you have been badly fooled.

This contention is being bantered about once again, so there is no better time than the present to set thinking people straight. Bush and Cheney want to make permanent unchecked Executive powers to electronically eavesdrop on anyone whom any president feels to be of interest. In August, before the summer recess, Congress enacted the Protect America Act, which provided only temporary approval for the expanding Executive powers under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). These temporary powers expire in February 2008, so Congress is once again addressing the subject.

The FISA amendments: the administration is seeking immunity for miscreants

Because of the way electronic traffic is directed from foreign countries through the United States, the FISA Court had previously rejected requests to intercept certain foreign-person- to-foreign-person communications in the United States. It was a technical problem, arising from the fact that FISA was written before modern data routing had been designed, and FISA thus needed fixing. On this, everyone agreed.

However, when the Bush Administration asked for the necessary fix to FISA, it also requested much more, including immunity under the existing laws for all the telecommunications companies that have been assisting the government in its illegal warrantless surveillance. Significantly, this practice -- justified by reference to the "war on terror" -- apparently started well before 9/11 under the Bush Administration.

Ironically, in requesting this immunity, the Bush White House has refused to disclose exactly what type of activities Congress would be retroactively immunizing. Preliminary congressional inquiry has revealed that a massive amount of electronic surveillance of Americans has gone on under the Bush/Cheney Administration. For example, one of the telecom giants, Verizon, reported that between January 2005 and September 2007 they provided information on 94,000 occasions. These numbers suggest that Verizon was operating as merely another (and a secret) extension of the federal intelligence establishment.

Many of the companies appear to be violating a number of federal criminal statutes -- such as 18 U.S.C. 2511, which requires a warrant for such surveillance and 18 U.S.C. 2702, which prohibits any "entity providing an electronic communication service to the public" from knowingly divulging "to any person or entity the contents of a communication" without a court order.

Currently, the telecoms are not likely to be particularly worried about being prosecuted by the very same government that instructed them to violate the law, and is leading the way in doing so itself.

But what about under the next Administration? The five-year statute of limitations will make them potentially criminally liable after Bush is gone -- at least, unless the Bush Administration gains for them retroactive and future immunity. In a new Administration, the telecoms may be viewed not as cooperative patriots, but rather as criminal co-conspirators.

Civil liability appears to be driving the immunity request

Meanwhile, civil liability for these companies is also a realistic prospect. For example, in a San Francisco federal court, AT&T customers are seeking to protect their privacy with actions under laws like 18 U.S.C. 2520, which provides a civil remedy and hefty damages -- ranging up to $10,000 per day per violation. Since it is possible that, over five-plus years, there have been tens upon tens of thousands of such violations, the, if liable telecoms could be looking at hundreds upon hundreds of millions of dollars of damages.

The Bush Administration clearly wants to help its partners in crime; it also wants to avoid accountability for what it has done and is still doing. If the civil litigation proceeds -- and one judge already ruled that the "state secrets" privilege does not prevent the plaintiffs from going forward -- the Bush Administration faces the risk of a federal court's forcing it to disclose its unsavory surveillance activities.

Privacy advocates are horrified at the prospect of Congress's potentially protecting this activity through immunity legislation. Yet, in sharp contrast, most people could care less. Indeed few people seem to care about their loss of privacy, notwithstanding the fact that, like an invisible pollutant to our air or water, it is increasingly eroding our freedom. Unfortunately, it seems that the invasion of our privacy, like the destruction of our atmosphere, may be tolerated until it is too late to fix it.

One of the leading causes of both problems is ignorance. Privacy is a highly complex issue, so people easily accept the claims of those who assert that, if you are not doing anything illegal, you have nothing to be concerned about government surveillance, and if you are, you have no right to privacy to break the law.

Understanding the misunderstanding about privacy

For several years I have been reading the work of George Washington University Law School Professor Daniel J. Solove, who writes extensively about privacy in the context of contemporary digital technology. The current apathy about government surveillance brought to mind his essay "'I've Got Nothing To Hide' And Other Misunderstandings of Privacy."

Professor Solove's deconstruction of the "I've got nothing to hide" position, and related justifications for government surveillance, is the best brief analysis of this issue I have found. These arguments are not easy to zap because, once they are on the table, they can set the terms of the argument. As Solove explains, "the problem with the nothing to hide argument is with its underlying assumption that privacy is about hiding bad things." He warns, "Agreeing with this assumption concedes far too much ground and leads to an unproductive discussion of information people would likely want or not want to hide." Solove's bottom line is that this argument "myopically views privacy as a form of concealment or secrecy."

In his work, Solove addresses the reality that privacy problems differ: Not all are equal; some are more harmful than others. Most importantly, he writes, "to understand privacy, we must conceptualize it and its value more pluralistically." Through several years of work, Solove has developed a more nuanced concept of privacy that rebuts the idea that there is a "one-size-fits-all conception of privacy."

The concept of "privacy" encompasses many ideas relating to the proper and improper use and abuse of information about people within society. Privacy protects information not only because it would cause others to think less of the person at issue, but also simply to give us all breathing room: "Society involves a great deal of friction," Solove writes, "and we are constantly clashing with each other. Part of what makes a society a good place in which to live is the extent to which it allows people freedom from the intrusiveness of others. A society without privacy protection would be suffocation, and it might not be a place in which most would want to live."

Professor Solove's work -- much of which he makes available online -- helps clarify thinking about privacy in its fuller context, and helps explain what is wrong with reductive dismissals of privacy using the mantra, "I've got nothing to hide." Before rushing to give the Bush Administration more ways to invade our privacy, not to mention absolving those who have confederated with him to engage in the most massive invasion of America privacy ever, members of Congress should look at Solove's work. Too many of them have no idea what privacy is all about, and grossly underestimate the value of this complex and essential concept.

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About author John W. Dean is a columnist for FindLaw and a former counsel to the President.

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We need to abolish alot of the jobs program that is DHS...
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Oct 20, 2007 12:12 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...starting with with the surveillances service.

That's my opinion, that folks should go get real jobs instead of illicit ones, carried out unconstitutionally.

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» RE: ABOLISH DHS and EXPOSE 9/11 Posted by: Zeitgeist
Can the chip nbe far behind?
Posted by: vox persona on Oct 20, 2007 12:45 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We're on that slow unstoppable inevitable train to complete tracking, tracing and surveillance from cradle to grave. They implant the chip in animals routinely, "security and convenience" will lead us (our children/grandchildren) like lambs to the slaughter. Biometrics, supercomputers, video and communications surveillance is already here. Orwell was just a few years off, Nostradamus was almost right on the money, off by only a couple, "In the year 1999 Mars (war) will reign at will", or something like like. Google "Bible Code" for a goof....not for the faint of heart.
We willingly let our rulers subject us to Orwellian surveillance. The sheeple just don't seem to care enough. We the people is now just a quaint memory. Whatever happened to the 4th Ammendment? It's used to puppy train Bush's dog.

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» RE: Can the chip nbe far behind? Posted by: littlemanintheboat
» www.votenic.com Posted by: votenic
Today's New York Times Editorial: With Democrats Like These ...
Posted by: shangrilalad on Oct 20, 2007 3:41 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
.
The last seven years have stripped away many of the illusions American’s have had about their system of government. It’s become apparent that conservatives were right all along: Government is not the solution, it’s the problem. Corrupt government anyway, and that’s all we’ve got.

Our leaders, government and economic system are so corrupt they threaten the survival of the American people. We are ruled by dictatorship of the rich and they see as expendable.

That’s the bad news. The good news is, more and more Americans are finally becoming aware that we are a nation of sheep ruled by wolves. Republicans are wolves and Democrats are wolves in sheep’s clothing.

That’s the way it is, but it doesn’t have to be that way. Now that we know the truth, we can change things . . . but it won’t be easy. Every institution, organization and agency of this corporate system is stacked against us: the monopoly media, our elected representatives, courts, education system, religious organizations and our primary employers, the Military Industrial Complex.

We can save ourselves from dictatorship, but it’s going to take something that Americans have been unwilling to do thus far. Come together, think for ourselves, and vote for our national interest.

The first step is to dismantle our corrupt corporate system of government.

We could begin by voting for a presidential candidate that the corporate system abhors, Dennis Kucinich.

.

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» RE: Democracy is already gone. Posted by: shangrilalad
» IF -and- UNLESS.... Posted by: Cathyc
» Psychic fields? Posted by: LMNOP
» THE INTERNET IS ALREADY CENSORED Posted by: Ipsi Dixit
» www.votenic.com Posted by: votenic
If you aren't part of the solution
Posted by: Rolomax on Oct 20, 2007 4:06 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
. Then you are part of the problem.

Some of the responses I've seen lately on the internet as well as alternet... sheeeeeez..

Quit letting yourselves be divided and start uniting on what is important! We are the government!

Does this make me a |Hippie|Democrat|Liberal|Republican|Conservative| whatever? Who the fuck cares?

I'm proud to say that I probably will get hit by a rubber bullet or two and maybe a teargas canister as well. Not because I hate government, but because I consider myself as a part of it. If it hates me, then so be it. I'll suffer some. Just so long as the alternative comes closer to reality.

Let the further dividing and conquering begin.

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» How about ACTION Posted by: matti
What do we know for certain
Posted by: willymack on Oct 20, 2007 4:28 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
About our current "president" and his sleazly entourage? 1. Due to massive election fraud and manipulation, they're in their respective offices ILLEGALLY, and have been since Jan., 2001. 2. That they're the most secretive "administration" ever, and consider their actions to be none of our business, even though they're supposed to be open with and accountable to our people. 3. That they removed evidence from the hideous crime scene that is the World Trade Center, and fought a REAL investigation into the crime, opting instesd for a coverup. Why? 4. That they caused a helpless Iraq to be attacked and occupied under the flimsiest of pretexts and lied repeadly about their REAL reasons for this action-namely to steal the oil there and bully the whole region through the establishment of (14) permanent bases there. 5. That they've repeadely sought to destroy our most valuable social programs, beginning with, but not limited to Social Security and Medicare. 6. That they're guilty of war crimes, crimes against humanity, war profiteering, and HIGH TREASON against our nation and people. 7. That they've stolen everything that isn't nailed down from us and are constantly looking for ways to steal even that. 8. That they're allowing greedy bastards to wreck our enviornment for the sake of profit, thereby menacing not only our people but the very Earth we live on. 9. That many, if not most of these foul deeds would be considered CAPITAL CRIMES in any sane and just society. 10. That our people have been lobotomized by allowing our educational systems to deteriorate to the point where they're no longer functional, our "entertainment" industry creating the illusion of fiscal and physical well-being as well as promoting rampant consumerism with grim consequences down the line. Finally, 11. That our citizenry is composed (mostly) of complaisant ignoramuses who allow this regime to work its evil.

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» RE: What do we know for certain Posted by: mistery509
» www.votenic.com Posted by: votenic
what the UK government does is based upon the insecurity of the monarchy
Posted by: Suzon on Oct 20, 2007 4:46 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Queen is probably as personally popular as it is possible to be in an unpopular monarchy. Even though they have been kept in ignorace of its actual power and baleful nature, the majority of the people would rather have something better than the fraud of "constitutional monarchy" or "parliamentary democracy" (the three party unfair electoral system, for example, means that all governments are minority governments).

The UK is streets ahead of the US in spying upon and repressing its people and always has been. Ever heard the term "conspiracy theorist"? A conspiracy theorist is anyone capable of making a guess about who really runs things. The term is used by the people who do conspire to dismiss the people who have a smattering of understanding that they are being conspired against.

Benito Mussolini (and what better authority could there be?) defined fascism as the merger of corporate and government powers.

The monarchy founded by the invader William the Conquerer in 1066 had to placate the powerful guilds. Today his direct descendant is still dependant upon the support of corporations. A look at the legislation passed by Parliament shows that Her Majesty's ministers are servants of commercial interests, i.e., requiring biometric ID cards and a state data base.

The Bush administration is doing everything it can to restore the high-handed monarchical powers that inspired the American Revolution. This is very wasteful and inefficient. Money that should be used for constructive purposes is spent on things that are destructive of human happiness and our earthly home.

My hope is that it will collapse because of its own foolishness.

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» www.votenic.com Posted by: votenic
Abolish the government
Posted by: arshi on Oct 20, 2007 5:22 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If we could only find a way to et real americans into government instead of the revolvig doors of office tat alow only Millionares, we could possibly have realism re-installed into life in this country. But, it ain't going to happen. Ameirca is dead on arrival - especially with the new crop of self-serving millionaires we have the illusion to select from.

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The Graphic for this article is perfect...
Posted by: ~Fiona~ on Oct 20, 2007 5:23 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...Because that's Exactly what the Cockroach in chief is doing every day he remains in office... Wiping his Sorry ass with Our Constitution...

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A gentleman doesn't read someone elses mail...
Posted by: rocketman on Oct 20, 2007 5:39 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
paraphrase of some obscure British military officer in response to intelligence gathering during WW1! - it does sound pretty stupid.

It's best to know what the enemy is doing..some rights are trampled but many more are protected... I agree that these programs should be up for review every 2 years or so and congress should be fully informed!

""Significantly, this practice -- justified by reference to the "war on terror" -- apparently started well before 9/11 under the Bush Administration."".. I find this hard to believe.. in the 9 months before 9-11 Bush set all this up? I'm surprised he found his way into the Oval office each day!!Unless Clinton had this going before he left, which is entirely possible.

As for the telecom companies, they were correctly acting in what they preceived as the best intersst of the nation. Leave it to lawsuit happy Americans (San Francisco no less) to sue a company who is trying to help protect the nation, at the request of the government.. - at times we are a nation of politically correct *&^%$# that can't see past their own interest!

Privacy is important to protect, no doubt.. the next time we have a terrorists attack in this country maybe we can hide it from our neighbors!

Somehow I think we have alot more important issues to worry about.. like who will take control of our out of control government, who will fix our screwed up foreign policy and will we ever get the government to pay for our healthcare.

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Question your assumptions
Posted by: Knowmad on Oct 20, 2007 5:41 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Not long ago some poll or other rated the US citizenry as the most patriotic people of all the major nations. However, I wouldn't take this as an excuse to start planning next tailgate party or street dance.

As in the well-known danger of 'too much of a good thing', or lack of moderation, your over-the-top flag-waving just might be one of your worst problems. The reason for this is, though we all partake of unthinking blind trust as infants - we have no other option - fortunately the mothers and others in our lives don't usually take advantage of this, so it's not often damaging. However such behaviour in supposedly aware, objective adults is a very dangerous, as it opens the door to all sorts of potential manipulation by the corrupt and criminal; something most posters here are well aware of.

You have to get the too-trusting, too-patriotic elements of your society to wake up. They are easy prey for the "Hey, if ya ain't done nuthin' wrong, ya don't need to worry if we look ya over, right?"

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It's Too Late Again....
Posted by: picket on Oct 20, 2007 6:16 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
this election cycle. 80% of the population could elect the candidate that has their best interests at heart....but now Corporations have given their endorsements.

We need to start immediately changing our voting status to INDEPENDENT and signing up new voters and running the candidates that the Independent Party desires.

Unless you are on another planet you know that the DEMS have failed us badly. They say they do not have the numbers so we have no choice but to give them that this time around and hold them accountable.

There are some brave leaders around like John Dean. Bill Moyers et al...BUT to turn BIG BROTHER in another direction is like trying to stop a runaway train.

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» RE: It's Too Late Again.... Posted by: Basenjis
Spying Is Valuable: War Dissenters, Commercial Interests
Posted by: sofla100 on Oct 20, 2007 6:40 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
During the Vietnam Era, the FBI assembled dossiers on leading war opponents. Such information is valuable to control protest and dissent. Today, it is very easy to track the movement of war protesters and dissenters. The goal has been assembling law enforcement at protest sites, ahead of time, to break up any potential or proposed demonstrations. If necessary, the FBI can also send agents out to protesters homes prior to any activity, to "nip it in the bud." This was the purpose of spying during the Vietnam Era.

But, we also need to consider the commercial value of spying. By intercepting communications between major overseas corporations, the CIA provides information to US firms to "get the competitive edge." For example, bids on major oil pipelines and commercial plants and other activities. Very valuable to help and protect US firms.

Finally, only the foolish believe the massive spying apparatus has anything to do with "terrorists." Such individuals mostly collude now in private and with encrypted communications. But, spying does have tremendous value in crushing dissent and helping your countries corporations. Therefore, it is wholeheartedly embraced in the USA.

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Yeah....
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Oct 20, 2007 7:05 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... because we know how well this has all worked out for other governments that have done it.. or rather.. for their citizens. And we know how much we respect those governments as being the home of freedom and liberty.

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"If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide"
Posted by: LMNOP on Oct 20, 2007 7:33 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bullshit! These thugs are incompetent and malicious. Every aspect of your life can be turned around and framed as a crime.* And people who think you're guilty or want you to be found guilty will persecute you. I know. I, a physician and pain treatment specialist, was the victim of an overzealous investigation and prosecution by the Attorney General's office in my state (a Democrat, no less) initiated at the request of a vile, major hospital chain (rhymes with Senate) that I successfully took on in our local papers back before I was cured of giving a shit, which eventually got run out of our town.

This was a grudge investigation performed by people who knew nothing about how my job was done*, who never asked me any questions or even told me what they were looking for or what they thought I was guilty of. But they did terrorize my staff and patients, and charged me with bogus infractions that threatened my license and cost me $15,000 to defend.

Nothing worse than some paperwork infractions was found (a receipt for some injectable morphine couldn't be located, and prescription pads were not under lock and key). I was punished with a letter of public reprimand and ordered to take rehabilitative training in record keeping, which cost me weeks away from work and thousands in course fees, travel, lodging and transportation.

*(At one point, the state's thugs accused me of illegally presigning prescriptions for narcotics to be distributed to patients in my absence during vacations. The morons based that on the number of prescriptions that were filled while I was out of the country. Idiots. F%$king morons. The prescriptions were filled days after they had been written, days when I *was* at work. F$%king amateurs!. Cost me thousands to fend that off. Is it any wonder that I refuse to see Medicaid patients, whose insurance pays one third of the Medicare rate? It would be a charitable act if I treated them as well as I do my adequately compensating patients, something that I refuse to do for this shameful fly-over state of inbred rednecks, something I refuse to do before I've recovered my fifteen grand. Homey don't play dat. If you treat me like a criminal, I don't do you favors, idiots. I just want to get the hell out of this backward red state and this repulsive country, and will as soon as I can afford to retire - about five years - since I'm not licensed to work in medicine outside of the US. Until then, I post about abandoning America as it has abandoned me, not fixing it. After all, you can't polish a turd.)

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Editor is Full Of CRAP!!!
Posted by: Wendy on Oct 20, 2007 7:55 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bush's spying does not in any way threaten law abiding citizens unless you're a terrorist or a criminal! I don't know of anyone that has lost any of their freedoms and I know I haven't as a result of Bush's spying! I'm no Bush fan and I don't agree with everything he does including his Amnesty policies on Illegal immigration, however, I agree with the partiot act! Bush is only spying on terrorists!! He is not spying on Americans! He is listening in on the phone calls of terrorists from overseas, not here in America!!! It is not domestic spying! As a result of this spying is the reason why we haven't been attacked since 9/11!!!!!! It is definitely no accident that we have not been attacked!!! It is because of the patriat act and the NSA wire tappings!!! If he overhears Alquida talking on the phone what should he do hang up!!? You left wing A$$holes are all a bunch of FIFTH COLUNIST FREAKS who are in bed with the damn terrorists!!!!! OH and by the way Hillary the Marxist Clinton illegally used wire tappings to listen in on her political opponents conversations back in 1992, but I guess that's OK because she's a democrat!!!

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» RE: Editor is Full Of CRAP!!! Posted by: mobilone
» WENDY Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: WENDY Posted by: rocketman
Sorry, this comment has been removed from the system.
» RE: ditor is Full Of CRAP!!! Posted by: midwestblue
» Hillarys war room! Posted by: rocketman
» STFU, ditto head Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: STFU, ditto head Posted by: rocketman
» Tssssttt!!! Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Tssssttt!!! Posted by: matti
» Full Of CRAP!!! Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Wendy is Full Of CRAP!!! Posted by: FURonnie
» RE: ditor is Full Of CRAP!!! Posted by: robmikejas
Time to take a closer look at what the NSA is up to.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Oct 20, 2007 8:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This situation is all very reminiscent of the McCarthy era, when 'secret information' was used to prosecute suspected Communist. The information couldn't be revealed to the public, because it was secret - the public was supposed to just trust certain people in the government.

That's the mantra that the Bush Administration and the U.S. political class have been rolling out over the past decade - "just trust us - we know what's best for you."

It's also kind of reminiscent of the pre-World War II Nazi state, when Hitler Youth brigades were encouraged to tear apart hotels and apartments looking for 'subversive activity.' The Gestapo even sent people to the weekly propaganda films to keep notes on who attended, who didn't, who applauded at the appropriate time, and who didn't.

Getting back to the present: The NSA went to the telecommunication companies to ask for cooperation with warrantless wiretapping six months before the 911 attacks - and yet, the Congressional leadership has still agreed to strike an immunity deal with the Bush Administration. They need to be forced to answer questions about that - who pressured them to do so?

Notice also that the one company that refused to participate had it's CEO hauled into court on 'insider trading' charges. Is that a coincidence, what with the Karl Rove / Gonzales managed politicization of the U.S. attorneys?

As far as the timid "I have nothing to hide" mentality goes, would you mind if someone put hidden cameras and microphones all through your house? Turned on your computer and cell phone cameras and microphones remotely? Read every piece of mail you sent, including all your confidential business correspondence? Flipped through your medical history?

Look at what the NSA, with the assistance of the FBI and the telecommunication offices, are up to - "total information awareness" programs. This was all originally coordinated by Admiral Poindexter of Iran Contra fame, Brian Sharkey (fourth from the right, standing beside George Tenet of the CIA) of Science Applications International Corporation,and Michael Hayden, Poindexter's deputy and now head of the NSA.

Once the bad publicity broke, TIA ("Total Information Awareness") was 'unnamed' and shifted over to something called ARDA with new sponsorship. This is all covered in The National Journal, Feb 2006.

One important point is that these information collection and data mining tools constructed by SAIC and ARDA were meant to be 'stand-alone' and 'portable' - meaning that someone like Karl Rove could end up getting their hands on them and use them to monitor their political opponents.

Other managers were Tom Armour (head of the Genoa II program) and Robert Popp, another member of Poindexter's staff.

The best response to being spyed on by the government is to turn around and take a close look at what the government has been up to. What with the rotten corporate contracts, the illegal domestic spying, the rigged elections, the lies about Saddam's WMDs and the illegal invasion of Iraq - well, there's a good legal argument for throwing a good chunk of the executive and legislative branches in jail for a few decades, at least.

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Ironic
Posted by: JSquercia on Oct 20, 2007 8:51 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Isn't it ironic that the MOST secretive Administration in our HISORY finds the idea of PRIVACY so unattarctive . It is right granted to us BY the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution . That they want to override but WE can't even find out WHO was on the Cheney Energy Task Force . Mind you this is not WHAT was discussed which could be covered under Executive Priviledge but rather WHO wee the players at the table

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» RE: Ironic Posted by: stacey
» RE: Ironic Posted by: mjglow
Man, are people this stupid...
Posted by: Smartcookie on Oct 20, 2007 9:33 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For fuck sakes, the author must be literally stupid. Anyone with any kind of intelligence knows Spying has been happening for a long time, anyone who engages in the world to buy and sell has little privacy, that fact must be faced. With the advent of sattelites and miniaturization of technology there is no way to stop the end of privacy.

I walkd into wal-mart the other day and the finally put a sign up about their closed circuit cameras to stop theft.

Wal-mart is VERY on the ball with security (at least in the stores I've shoplifted from). I shoplifted a bag of candy that cost $1.89 (anything less then $50 in value they will not stop you for), using my own technique... then later they started tying bags with twist ties after they learned from my little experiment (since $2 is a small price to pay for such a valuable service I performed for them by teaching them the loopholes in their theft-prevention measures).

Anywhere you go with significant commercial assets you will be observed, and thats practically everywhere. Tthe government is just the tool of private industry, what is the real problem and has always been is PRIVATE INDUSTRY. Stop blaming "the government" the government is nothing more then groups of people with special monied interests from private industry 99% of the time.

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My email to Dr. Solove
Posted by: BobbyG on Oct 20, 2007 9:59 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hello, Sir -

I just ran across a John Dean article citing you and your "'I've Got Nothing To Hide' And Other Misunderstandings of Privacy."

I'll have to find your essay and read it.

I did my M.A. work on an aspect of the issue of privacy, see

www.bgladd.com/drugwar

See also my late 2001 screed against the mendacious "Total Information Awarenesss" initiative at

www.bgladd.com/Total_Information_Awareness

I even sent this bit of snark to then- TIA Director John Poindexter via snailmail:

www.bgladd.com/Total_Information_Awareness/TIA_Report.html

The "I've got nothing to hide" canard mindlessly accedes the rational burden of proof residing in the 4th Amendment, i.e., the "right of privacy" was framed to be presumptive -- not "absolute," as privacy-invasion opportunists never fail to red-herringly claim, just presumptive, and properly breachable only upon objective independent showing of "cause," be it "probable" (I could go for days on the problems with that word) or the putative lesser merely "reasonable" (problematically circular much of the time).

Beyond the consitutional/ethical/moral facets, my objection goes to the methodological, i.e., every additional "n-th" nothing-to-hide person you add to the sample inexorably reduces the probability of finding the perp by an "n-th." Almost no one understands this. Sarcastically put,

"Why, if we just had ALL of the hay, we'd know EXACTLY where the needles are. They're right there IN THE HAY!!!"

Stuff gives me a headache.

Best regards -

Bobby Gladd

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» RE: My email to Dr. Solove Posted by: donl51
Think about it
Posted by: A graycat on Oct 20, 2007 10:06 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For all of those who think surveillance is ok because you have nothing to hide, think about this.
Roe V Wade was NOT about abortion it was about privacy.
The privacy that allows us to decide what choices we would like to make, and to choose them. Like the privacy to share our medical choices with our doctor and no one else. This privacy protects you from your employer terminating you because you have a chronic condition that MIGHT at sometime in the future cause you to miss a little work, or draw on your employee health plan for care, which Might raise your employers rate.
So when you think "I've got nothing to hide" think again, the loss of privacy in any form is a slippery slope, and it WILL lead to more loss of freedom than you might ever imagine.
So whether or not you have something to hide, or whether or not you are for or against a woman's right to choose, keeping the government out of your private life is a lot more than not allowing it to listen to your phone calls or read your E-mail.
Think about it. (Is this why they want end our privacy?)

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» RE: Think about it Posted by: BobbyG
Make sure you always have an alibi
Posted by: common intelligence on Oct 20, 2007 10:31 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Stop being played but the "machine". Then you will not have fear for them to spy on you. They can look up my arse, (and believe me it's not a pretty sight).

The problem stems down to individuals indirectly spying on each other with their nosey little idol minds. Then they just might "tell the Authorities", about virtually nothing.
But now you have to have an alibi!

One can not let anyone not know where you are and who you are with at all anymore. Because if you are alone you have no alibi. Therefore you are immediately a suspect for something you have no idea of and therefore can be incarcerated with out any due-process and locked away with out any recourse of action.

That is the Patriot Act.

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So, John Dean, it's all just a matter of grammar?
Posted by: Sojourner on Oct 20, 2007 10:48 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Solove's retort to "I've got nothing to hide" is called rhetoric; to wit, "Privacy is not about hiding." It's a lawyer's court trick used to confuse witnesses and juries.

Those of us who want proactive prevention of terrorist violence are not enemies of privacy. We have no assurance that the US can continue to enjoy all the luxuries of democracy in a world headed toward "Collapse." Instead, I assure you that the pressures of the world's corruption on us are and will continue to grow enormously.

Those who cannot see that the world situation has changed--with population growth and migration; approaching 7 billion humans, dwindling resources, where arms merchants are as good as gold--ought to go bury their heads in books.

Yes, it sounds like the proposed legislation is classic GOP: ask for the universe and settle for the moon. But Solove's rhetoric only makes him feel better. Its clever vacuity should be left to oracles.

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» So Joshua Posted by: apophenia_monkey
Been On This Road For A While
Posted by: apophenia_monkey on Oct 20, 2007 10:52 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
best bet, learn unix or linux, build your own pcs, learn to switch segments, set up honey pots, and set up zombies.

pay cash--either hard currency or money order.

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Nothing to hide from prying eyes?
Posted by: CJC on Oct 20, 2007 11:37 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
For all those posters and readers who say they don't mind domestic spying, eavesdropping and so forth try this thought experiment.

How many of you would be willing to have all your communications and personal information publicly posted on a bulletin board outside your house or at the post office or whatever is a prominent public place in your community?
Even for a single week - not of your choosing, of course.

All your bills, all your expenses, all your snail mail and email both sent and received, transcripts of all your conversations, video of your 24 hour day, your credit record, your salary, your taxes, your mortgage payment etc etc etc. Your medical record too, of course. Absolutely everything that you think it's OK for the government to have in the interests of "protecting" you.

Any takers?

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» RE: Left Wing Myth? Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» Riiiight... Posted by: mjglow
» Bill Hicks!!! Posted by: apophenia_monkey
» RE: Bill Hicks!!! Posted by: mjglow
» You need... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
Bush’s police state started in Texas
Posted by: DrSuess on Oct 20, 2007 12:48 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In 1996 I was in Texas gathering signatures to get the Natural Law party on the ballot. I was appalled by what I saw. There was a policeman on every street corner in downtown Dallas, and every store had a guard at the front door. Police and surveillance was everywhere. There were so many Texas Republicans who believed that we were communists for even trying to get another party on the ballot. It was the first place that I saw the radical right wing of the Republican party that has no tolerance for anyone or anything.

Suddenly I knew what it was like to live in a police state. I walked out of there shocked and puzzled. I left there knowing what it was like to live under Hitler. When I went home and described what I had seen no one believed me. It was so different from where the country was.

A few years later Bush won the Presidency and brought this fascist view to the whole nation. 911 did not create Bush’s world view, he brought that with him from somewhere in Texas.

What will finally bring down Bush's world view is defeat. We will be defeated in Iraq- it is just a matter of time until we admit what has already happened. The Republican will be defeated in the election. Their defeat next year might be as bad as McGoverns was.

Even if Hillary wins the Democratic primary- the Democrats will probably win. Gulianni cannot carry the right wing, and no one else can carry the middle.

If the Republican party and the war end in flames, so will the world view of Bush and his secret society.

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silencing the campuses
Posted by: MLMrev on Oct 20, 2007 1:41 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And on campuses in the U.S., there is a concerted effort to silence critical thinking and dissent under the guise of "academic freedom" and "Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week"...
This stuff is ridiculous:

GREAT SITE WITH LOTS OF INFO/PLANS/ETC.:
DefendCriticalThinking.org

RECENTLY CREATED BY PROFS: Ad Hoc Committee to Defend the University (PETITION)
Petition

VIDEOS:
"Horowitz and Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week" ( www.worldcantwait.org)
YOUTUBE VIDEO

"Expose 'IFAW'" (independent)
another YOUTUBE video

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I'm Old Enough to Know
Posted by: macdon1 on Oct 20, 2007 4:14 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Take it from someone who remembers when we at least had something resembling a democracy...it's done and gone and electing a democrat isn't going to solve the problems. Hopefully, some huge natural disaster will occur and bring down the corporate state so we can start over. Failing that, I see nothing but misery and chaos in our future.

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» RE: I'm Old Enough to Know Posted by: donl51
Grim, Tortuous Fairy Tales, By Bush Administration; Ghost Writer, Justice Department
Posted by: Betsy L. Angert on Oct 20, 2007 5:23 PM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dear John Dean. . .

I cannot begin to tell you how often I marvel at your wisdom. I thank you for this treatise.

It seems, too many, for too long, think if they have nothing to hide all is well. Presumed patriotic duties deny us of our privacy and have helped those bent on war to bend the will of the people.

I recall the brilliance you share in another excellent essay, The So-Called Protect America Act: Why Its Sweeping Amendments to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act Pose Not Only a Civil Liberties Threat, But a Greater Danger As Well.

You note how quickly this Act was passed. The desire for a summer recess seemed more pressing.

In that missive you state what I think might help provide perspective . . .
The Washington Post, the New York Times, and politically-diverse organizations ranging from the John Birch Society and the Cato Institute to the American Civil Liberties Union all agree that the PAA is a serious mistake, and threat to the civil liberties of Americans. They point out that the law ignores the Fourth Amendment while, at the same time, hiding its actual operations in national security secrecy. Indeed, Congress was not even certain about the full extent of what it has authorized because President Bush and Vice-President Cheney refused to reveal it.

For me, the Protect America Act is certainly as a fairy tale, violent and vile. Little Red Riding Hood thought the fox her kindly grandmother. In 2004, many voted for the "protector." Americans were happy to let Mister Bush be the "decider." Who is the wolf in sheep's clothing. Perhaps, there is a pack.

I invite your review of my reflection . . .
Grim, Tortuous Fairy Tales, By Bush Administration; Ghost Writer, Justice Department

Betsy L. Angert
BeThink.org

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The Big Chill
Posted by: P. Sophia on Oct 20, 2007 8:25 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People who do not value privacy lack imagination.

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» RE: The Big Chill Posted by: earth2moonbat
» RE: The Big Chill Posted by: mjglow
Fed up ? Here's the solution not even Libertarians will want to tell you.
Posted by: maxpayne on Oct 20, 2007 11:11 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
ABOLISH THE CIA, FBI, FCC, DEA, NSA, Warfare, Corporate Welfare, etc ...

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I seen em peeking....
Posted by: Michiganman on Oct 20, 2007 11:15 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
through the register vent at me. Now I think it was a mini robot. I wish I wouldn't have dismissed it as a fluke. They nailed me for ordering cigarettes over the internet -taxes the next week. ....
think I'm kidding?
You better wake up!

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Are people on the left ALLERGIC to CREATIVE SOLUTIONS now?
Posted by: matti on Oct 21, 2007 2:56 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've already offered a couple, maybe they're crap who knows?

But ANY IDEA FOR ACTION is more useful than all of this MASTERBATORY "discussion" and "debate" of "what's happening".

ANYONE PAYING ATTENTION CAN SEE "WHATS HAPPENING"

*big breath*

AND ANYONE WITH ANY HUMAN DIGNITY KNOWS ITS WRONG.

So instead of YAPPING about it till I've got Gray Hair, and My Wife's Breasts Have Fallen, what say we discuss:

WHAT IS TO BE DONE?

I'll go first.

How 'bout, intead of ANOTHER POINTLESS PROTEST MARCH TO MAKE EVERYONE "FEEL" LIKE THEY"VE ACTUALLY DONE SOMETHING...

*brreeeeaaaaaatttthhhh*cough*cough*wheeezee*clearthroat*

Everyone who would have "Protested" make a long distance call to Europe or North Africa or the Middle East or Indonesia and hold a scripted conversaion with whoever, hitting as many NSA "keywords" (allah, jihad, bombing, etc.) as possible in an attempt to swamp their computers and thus humiliate them. Can their soft/hardware REALLY handle 250K or 500K or 1mil "red flags" simultaneuosly without crashing? or at least error fuck-up-loops? who knows? wanna find out?

Stupid-idea-that-would-never-work?

maybe, I'm open to better, but it can't

*big, big, breath*

POSSIBLY BE AS STUPID AS DOING THE SAME USELESS "PROTEST" AND "EDUCATION" AND "DISCUSSION" BULLSHIT -THAT DIDN'T REALLY EVEN WORK IN THE SIXTIES WHEN IT WAS FIRST TRIED - OVER, AND OVER, AND OVER AGAIN WITHOUT RESULT LIKE SOME KIND OF MINDLESS SLAVE MACHINES!

*reaches for lozenge, crap "orange flavor"...ich*

Sorry for the yelling, but seriously, if those of us who are Still Awake this deep into the Tele-Knowledge, Crypto-Fascist-Seed Era, don't stop REacting and Start ACTING, then a Human-Derived-Solution may cease to be possible, and only Planetary Change and Remnent Survival will offer any Hope.


This is the Time of the Death of What Is, and the Quietude before the Birth of What Will Be.

with soon-to-be-Samhain greetings,

-matti

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The problem is you have to educate the willfully ignorant
Posted by: foolme1ns on Oct 21, 2007 9:26 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
and you have to do it in bumper sticker terms.

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FDR InterCepted Enemy Communications
Posted by: earth2moonbat on Oct 21, 2007 10:14 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
FDR intercepted enemy communications during WW2 and he did it without a warrant! So did Eisenshour, Lindon Johsnon right on down to Bush. So did Clinton. He used a device that was even more intrusive than the one that Bush is using, and Clinton did it without a warrant, yet all the liberals were 100% supportive of Clinton when he did it. But because a republican president is doing the same thing, the liberals are shrieking and belly aching to no end!

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Want to add one more thing
Posted by: earth2moonbat on Oct 21, 2007 10:16 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Bobby Kennedy had Martin Luther King bugged and without a warrant!!

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» RE: Want to add one more thing Posted by: aonghus36
"Nothing to Hide" assumes an honest government
Posted by: redroadtraveler on Oct 21, 2007 11:06 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Nothing could be further from the truth. It's the old "Do as I say not as I do" approach to life. The Government of the USA is as dishonest as they come.

I spent four years in prison for a crime I did not commit, put there by a government that was determined to label me a criminal. My prosecutor "won" his case by committing perjury and obstruction of justice. When I confronted him with this, he simply laughed in my face and said "WE don't have to FOLLOW the law - we ARE the law!"

Government officials who have such arrogance deserve their time in Gitmo.

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Romantic Violence
Posted by: Romantic Violence on Oct 22, 2007 5:57 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Government, whoever they might be; remember the 10th Amendment, is not the law. According to Rosmini, law is based upon the culture, social participation, and above all, a written constitution of a people. We live in a land not of 'law' which is touted upon a daily basis but decrees and legislation. When is last time YOU participated in a state referendum on an important issue? We need a national referendum. Oh, that's right, I forgot. America is comprised of 50 little 'sovereign' countries.

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THE RIGHT WING IS NOW A
Posted by: Raymond Emerson on Oct 22, 2007 1:02 PM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
fully organized and funded political machine. Do not trust anyone on the right. No one on the right can be a patriot. The only true patriots now come from the left. The right wing protects itself and profits itself at the ultimate expense of the whole nation. If you still love the United States you must rise up and protect it from those who plan to destroy it and leave for greener pastures. The most patriotic thing they could do would be to leave now.

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WHAT ARE THE QUESTIONS OF DEMOCRACY?
Posted by: deadringer1 on Oct 22, 2007 4:38 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In a democracy the question is not "what have you got to hide," the real question is "why do they need to know?" Needing to know about everyone implies the guilt of all, that is why the law initially has put restraints on the government. The laws inherent in the US are for the protection of the individual, in this instance, against the absolute power of the government.

Not In His Name

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www.votenic.com
Posted by: votenic on Oct 22, 2007 7:57 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2008 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION WEEKLY POLL

http://www.votenic.com

Results Posted Tuesday Evening.
FREE, NON-BIASED

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Retroactive Immunity
Posted by: Urgelt on Oct 23, 2007 6:28 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have to wonder why Bush is shoving this issue down Congress' throats.

We all know, on his last day in office, he'll pardon the whole lot of them.

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I JUST FOUND OUT
Posted by: Turkiye on Oct 25, 2007 10:28 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
that not only does the government have their surveillance on each and everyone of us, there is a private citizen, employed by no one at all tracking us to capture all of those scary terrorists.
Her name is Shannen Rossmiller and she reads every word written by everyone in the rooms on AOL.
WTF, enough already.
OH My, she also speaks Arabic, how handy indeed.

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Pure propaganda
Posted by: DrColes on Oct 27, 2007 2:06 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
What a crock! Nothing in the surveillance program threatens American citizens. Do your own homework and stop listening to propagandists. As we struggle to know our domestic enemies. No, matter your political party affiliation, and setting aside your thoughts on issues. We all need to remember what it is to be an American Citizen. We need to make sure our elected representatives obey their Oath of Office and keep their Oath of Allegiance. See http://tinyurl.com/2znnvl Know whom you are voting for.

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