COMMENTS: 206
Why Dems and Republicans Bow to the Israel Lobby
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Introduction
America is about to enter a presidential election year. Although the outcome is of course impossible to predict at this stage, certain features of the campaign are easy to foresee. The candidates will inevitably differ on various domestic issues -- health care, abortion, gay marriage, taxes, education, immigration -- and spirited debates are certain to erupt on a host of foreign policy questions as well. What course of action should the United States pursue in Iraq? What is the best response to the crisis in Darfur, Iran's nuclear ambitions, Russia's hostility to NATO, and China's rising power? How should the United States address global warming, combat terrorism, and reverse the erosion of its international image? On these and many other issues, we can confidently expect lively disagreements among the various candidates.
Yet on one subject, we can be equally confident that the candidates will speak with one voice. In 2008, as in previous election years, serious candidates for the highest office in the land will go to considerable lengths to express their deep personal commitment to one foreign country -- Israel -- as well as their determination to maintain unyielding U.S. support for the Jewish state. Each candidate will emphasize that he or she fully appreciates the multitude of threats facing Israel and make it clear that, if elected, the United States will remain firmly committed to defending Israel's interests under any and all circumstances. None of the candidates is likely to criticize Israel in any significant way or suggest that the United States ought to pursue a more evenhanded policy in the region. Any who do will probably fall by the wayside.
This observation is hardly a bold prediction, because presidential aspirants were already proclaiming their support for Israel in early 2007. The process began in January, when four potential candidates spoke to Israel's annual Herzliya Conference on security issues. As Joshua Mitnick reported in Jewish Week, they were "seemingly competing to see who can be most strident in defense of the Jewish State." Appearing via satellite link, John Edwards, the Democratic party's 2004 vice presidential candidate, told his Israeli listeners that "your future is our future" and said that the bond between the United States and Israel "will never be broken." Former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney spoke of being "in a country I love with people I love" and, aware of Israel's deep concern about a possible nuclear Iran, proclaimed that "it is time for the world to speak three truths: (1) Iran must be stopped; (2) Iran can be stopped; (3) Iran will be stopped!" Senator John McCain (R-AZ) declared that "when it comes to the defense of Israel, we simply cannot compromise," while former House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-GA) told the audience that "Israel is facing the greatest danger for [sic] its survival since the 1967 victory."
Shortly thereafter, in early February, Senator Hillary Clinton (D-NY) spoke in New York before the local chapter of the powerful American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), where she said that in this "moment of great difficulty for Israel and great peril for Israel ... what is vital is that we stand by our friend and our ally and we stand by our own values. Israel is a beacon of what's right in a neighborhood overshadowed by the wrongs of radicalism, extremism, despotism and terrorism." One of her rivals for the Democratic nomination, Senator Barack Obama (D-IL), spoke a month later before an AIPAC audience in Chicago. Obama, who has expressed some sympathy for the Palestinians' plight in the past and made a brief reference to Palestinian "suffering" at a campaign appearance in March 2007, was unequivocal in his praise for Israel and made it manifestly clear that he would do nothing to change the U.S.-Israeli relationship. Other presidential hopefuls, including Senator Sam Brownback (R-KS) and New Mexico governor Bill Richardson, have expressed pro-Israel sentiments with equal or greater ardor.
What explains this behavior? Why is there so little disagreement among these presidential hopefuls regarding Israel, when there are profound disagreements among them on almost every other important issue facing the United States and when it is apparent that America's Middle East policy has gone badly awry? Why does Israel get a free pass from presidential candidates, when its own citizens are often deeply critical of its present policies and when these same presidential candidates are all too willing to criticize many of the things that other countries do? Why does Israel, and no other country in the world, receive such consistent deference from America's leading politicians?
Some might say that it is because Israel is a vital strategic asset for the United States. Indeed, it is said to be an indispensable partner in the "war on terror." Others will answer that there is a powerful moral case for providing Israel with unqualified support, because it is the only country in the region that "shares our values." But neither of these arguments stands up to fair-minded scrutiny. Washington's close relationship with Jerusalem makes it harder, not easier, to defeat the terrorists who are now targeting the United States, and it simultaneously undermines America's standing with important allies around the world. Now that the Cold War is over, Israel has become a strategic liability for the United States. Yet no aspiring politician is going to say so in public, or even raise the possibility.
There is also no compelling moral rationale for America's uncritical and uncompromising relationship with Israel. There is a strong moral case for Israel's existence and there are good reasons for the United States to be committed to helping Israel if its survival is in jeopardy. But given Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories, moral considerations might suggest that the United States pursue a more evenhanded policy toward the two sides, and maybe even lean toward the Palestinians.
Yet we are unlikely to hear that sentiment expressed by anyone who wants to be president, or anyone who would like to occupy a position in Congress. The real reason why American politicians are so deferential is the political power of the Israel lobby. The lobby is a loose coalition of individuals and organizations that actively works to move U.S. foreign policy in a pro-Israel direction. As we will describe in detail, it is not a single, unified movement with a central leadership, and it is certainly not a cabal or conspiracy that "controls" U.S. foreign policy. It is simply a powerful interest group, made up of both Jews and gentiles, whose acknowledged purpose is to press Israel's case within the United States and influence American foreign policy in ways that its members believe will benefit the Jewish state. The various groups that make up the lobby do not agree on every issue, although they share the desire to promote a special relationship between the United States and Israel. Like the efforts of other ethnic lobbies and interest groups, the activities of the Israel lobby's various elements are legitimate forms of democratic political participation, and they are for the most part consistent with America's long tradition of interest group activity.
Because the Israel lobby has gradually become one of the most powerful interest groups in the United States, candidates for high office pay close attention to its wishes. The individuals and groups in the United States that make up the lobby care deeply about Israel, and they do not want American politicians to criticize it, even when criticism might be warranted and might even be in Israel's own interest. Instead, these groups want U.S. leaders to treat Israel as if it were the fifty-first state. Democrats and Republicans alike fear the lobby's clout. They all know that any politician who challenges its policies stands little chance of becoming president.
The Lobby and the U.S. Middle East Policy
The lobby's political power is important not because it affects what presidential candidates say during a campaign, but because it has a significant influence on American foreign policy, especially in the Middle East. America's actions in that volatile region have enormous consequences for people all around the world, especially the people who live there. Just consider how the Bush administration's misbegotten war in Iraq has affected the long suffering people of that shattered country: tens of thousands dead, hundreds of thousands forced to flee their homes, and a vicious sectarian war taking place with no end in sight. The war has also been a strategic disaster for the United States and has alarmed and endangered U.S. allies both inside and outside the region. One could hardly imagine a more vivid or tragic demonstration of the impact the United States can have -- for good or ill -- when it unleashes the power at its disposal.
The United States has been involved in the Middle East since the early days of the Republic, with much of the activity centered on educational programs or missionary work. For some, a biblically inspired fascination with the Holy Land and the role of Judaism in its history led to support for the idea of restoring the Jewish people to a homeland there, a view that was embraced by certain religious leaders and, in a general way, by a few U.S. politicians. But it is a mistake to see this history of modest and for the most part private engagement as the taproot of America's role in the region since World War II, and especially its extraordinary relationship with Israel today.
Between the routing of the Barbary pirates two hundred years ago and World War II, the United States played no significant security role anywhere in the region and U.S. leaders did not aspire to one. Woodrow Wilson did endorse the 1917 Balfour Declaration (which expressed Britain's support for the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine), but Wilson did virtually nothing to advance this goal. Indeed, the most significant U.S. involvement during this period -- a fact-finding mission dispatched to the region in 1919 by the Paris Peace Conference under the leadership of Americans Henry Churchill King and Charles Crane -- concluded that the local population opposed continued Zionist inroads and recommended against the establishment of an independent Jewish homeland. Yet as the historian Margaret Macmillan notes, "Nobody paid the slightest attention." The possibility of a U.S. mandate over portions of the Middle East was briefly considered but never pursued, and Britain and France ended up dividing the relevant portions of the Ottoman Empire between themselves.
The United States has played an important and steadily increasing role in Middle East security issues since World War II, driven initially by oil, then by anti-communism and, over time, by its growing relationship with Israel. America's first significant involvement in the security politics of the region was a nascent partnership with Saudi Arabia in the mid-1940s (intended by both parties as a check on British ambitions in the region), and its first formal alliance commitments were Turkey's inclusion in NATO in 1952 and the anti-Soviet Baghdad Pact in 1954. After backing Israel's founding in 1948, U.S. leaders tried to strike a balanced position between Israel and the Arabs and carefully avoided making any formal commitment to the Jewish state for fear of jeopardizing more important strategic interests. This situation changed gradually over the ensuing decades, in response to events like the Six-Day War, Soviet arms sales to various Arab states, and the growing influence of pro-Israel groups in the United States. Given this dramatic transformation in America's role in the region, it makes little sense to try to explain current U.S. policy -- and especially the lavish support that is now given to Israel -- by referring to the religious beliefs of a bygone era or the radically different forms of past American engagement. There was nothing inevitable or predetermined about the current special relationship between the United States and Israel.
Since the Six-Day War of 1967, a salient feature -- and arguably the central focus -- of America's Middle East policy has been its relationship with Israel. For the past four decades, in fact, the United States has provided Israel with a level of material and diplomatic support that dwarfs what it provides to other countries. That aid is largely unconditional: no matter what Israel does, the level of support remains for the most part unchanged. In particular, the United States consistently favors Israel over the Palestinians and rarely puts pressure on the Jewish state to stop building settlements and roads in the West Bank. Although Presidents Bill Clinton and George W. Bush openly favored the creation of a viable Palestinian state, neither was willing to use American leverage to make that outcome a reality.
The United States has also undertaken policies in the broader Middle East that reflected Israel's preferences. Since the early 1990s, for example, American policy toward Iran has been heavily influenced by the wishes of successive Israeli governments. Tehran has made several attempts in recent years to improve relations with Washington and settle outstanding differences, but Israel and its American supporters have been able to stymie any détente between Iran and the United States, and to keep the two countries far apart. Another example is the Bush administration's behavior during Israel's war against Lebanon in the summer of 2006. Almost every country in the world harshly criticized Israel's bombing campaign -- a campaign that killed more than one thousand Lebanese, most of them civilians -- but the United States did not. Instead, it helped Israel prosecute the war, with prominent members of both political parties openly defending Israel's behavior. This unequivocal support for Israel undermined the pro-American government in Beirut, strengthened Hezbollah, and drove Iran, Syria, and Hezbollah closer together, results that were hardly good for either Washington or Jerusalem.
Many policies pursued on Israel's behalf now jeopardize U.S. national security. The combination of unstinting U.S. support for Israel and Israel's prolonged occupation of Palestinian territory has fueled anti-Americanism throughout the Arab and Islamic world, thereby increasing the threat from international terrorism and making it harder for Washington to deal with other problems, such as shutting down Iran's nuclear program. Because the United States is now so unpopular within the broader region, Arab leaders who might otherwise share U.S. goals are reluctant to help us openly, a predicament that cripples U.S. efforts to deal with a host of regional challenges. This situation, which has no equal in American history, is due primarily to the activities of the Israel lobby. While other special interest groups -- including ethnic lobbies representing Cuban Americans, Irish Americans, Armenian Americans, and Indian Americans -- have managed to skew U.S. foreign policy in directions that they favored, no ethnic lobby has diverted that policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest. The Israel lobby has successfully convinced many Americans that American and Israeli interests are essentially identical. In fact, they are not. Although this book focuses primarily on the lobby's influence on U.S. foreign policy and its negative effect on American interests, the lobby's impact has been unintentionally harmful to Israel as well. Take Israel's settlements, which even a writer as sympathetic to Israel as Leon Wieseltier recently called a "moral and strategic blunder of historic proportions."
Israel's situation would be better today if the United States had long ago used its financial and diplomatic leverage to convince Israel to stop building settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, and instead helped Israel create a viable Palestinian state on those lands. Washington did not do so, however, largely because it would have been politically costly for any president to attempt it. As noted above, Israel would have been much better off if the United States had told it that its military strategy for fighting the 2006 Lebanon war was doomed to fail, rather than reflexively endorsing and facilitating it. By making it difficult to impossible for the U.S. government to criticize Israel's conduct and press it to change some of its counterproductive policies, the lobby may even be jeopardizing the long-term prospects of the Jewish state.
The Lobby's Modus Operandi
It is difficult to talk about the lobby's influence on American foreign policy, at least in the mainstream media in the United States, without being accused of anti-Semitism or labeled a self-hating Jew. It is just as difficult to criticize Israeli policies or question U.S. support for Israel in polite company. America's generous and unconditional support for Israel is rarely questioned, because groups in the lobby use their power to make sure that public discourse echoes its strategic and moral arguments for the special relationship. The response to former President Jimmy Carter's Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid perfectly illustrates this phenomenon.
Carter's book is a personal plea for renewed American engagement in the peace process, based largely on his considerable experience with these issues over the past three decades. Reasonable people may challenge his evidence or disagree with his conclusions, but his ultimate goal is peace between these two peoples, and Carter unambiguously defends Israel's right to live in peace and security. Yet because he suggests that Israel's policies in the Occupied Territories resemble South Africa's apartheid regime and said publicly that pro-Israel groups make it hard for U.S. leaders to pressure Israel to make peace, a number of these same groups launched a vicious smear campaign against him. Not only was Carter publicly accused of being an anti-Semite and a "Jew-hater," some critics even charged him with being sympathetic to Nazis. Since the lobby seeks to keep the present relationship intact, and because in fact its strategic and moral arguments are so weak, it has little choice but to try to stifle or marginalize serious discussion.
Yet despite the lobby's efforts, a considerable number of Americans -- almost 40 percent -- recognize that U.S. support for Israel is one of the main causes of anti-Americanism around the world. Among elites, the number is substantially higher. Furthermore, a surprising number of Americans understand that the lobby has a significant, not always positive influence on U.S. foreign policy. In a national poll taken in October 2006, 39 percent of the respondents said that they believe that the "work of the Israeli lobby on Congress and the Bush administration has been a key factor for going to war in Iraq and now confronting Iran." In a 2006 survey of international relations scholars in the United States, 66 percent of the respondents said that they agreed with the statement "the Israel lobby has too much influence over U.S. foreign policy." While the American people are generally sympathetic to Israel, many of them are critical of particular Israeli policies and would be willing to withhold American aid if Israel's actions are seen to be contrary to U.S. interests.
Of course, the American public would be even more aware of the lobby's influence and more tough-minded with regard to Israel and its special relationship with the United States if there were a more open discussion of these matters. Still, one might wonder why, given the public's views about the lobby and Israel, politicians and policy makers are so unwilling to criticize Israel and to make aid to Israel conditional on whether its actions benefit the United States. The American people are certainly not demanding that their politicians support Israel down the line. In essence, there is a distinct gulf between how the broader public thinks about Israel and its relationship with the United States and how governing elites in Washington conduct American policy.
The main reason for this gap is the lobby's formidable reputation inside the Beltway. Not only does it exert significant influence over the policy process in Democratic and Republican administrations alike, but it is even more powerful on Capitol Hill. The journalist Michael Massing reports that a congressional staffer sympathetic to Israel told him, "We can count on well over half the House -- 250 to 300 members -- to do reflexively whatever AIPAC wants." Similarly, Steven Rosen, the former AIPAC official who has been indicted for allegedly passing classified government documents to Israel, illustrated AIPAC's power for the New Yorker's Jeffrey Goldberg by putting a napkin in front of him and saying, "In twenty-four hours, we could have the signatures of seventy senators on this napkin." These are not idle boasts. As will become clear, when issues relating to Israel come to the fore, Congress almost always votes to endorse the lobby's positions, and usually in overwhelming numbers.
Why Is it so Hard to Talk About the Israel Lobby?
Because the United States is a pluralist democracy where freedom of speech and association are guaranteed, it was inevitable that interest groups would come to dominate the political process. For a nation of immigrants, it was equally inevitable that some of these interest groups would form along ethnic lines and that they would try to influence U.S. foreign policy in various ways. Cuban Americans have lobbied to maintain the embargo on Castro's regime, Armenian Americans have pushed Washington to acknowledge the 1915 genocide and, more recently, to limit U.S. relations with Azerbaijan, and Indian Americans have rallied to support the recent security treaty and nuclear cooperation agreements. Such activities have been a central feature of American political life since the founding of the country, and pointing them out is rarely controversial.
Yet it is clearly more difficult for Americans to talk openly about the Israel lobby. Part of the reason is the lobby itself, which is both eager to advertise its clout and quick to challenge anyone who suggests that its influence is too great or might be detrimental to U.S. interests. There are, however, other reasons why it is harder to have a candid discussion about the impact of the Israel lobby.
To begin with, questioning the practices and ramifications of the Israel lobby may appear to some to be tantamount to questioning the legitimacy of Israel itself. Because some states still refuse to recognize Israel and some critics of Israel and the lobby do question its legitimacy, many of its supporters may see even well-intentioned criticism as an implicit challenge to Israel's existence. Given the strong feelings that many people have for Israel, and especially its important role as a safe haven for Jewish refugees from the Holocaust and as a central focus of contemporary Jewish identity, there is bound to be a hostile and defensive reaction when people think its legitimacy or its existence is under attack.
But in fact, an examination of Israel's policies and the efforts of its American supporters does not imply an anti-Israel bias, just as an examination of the political activities of the American Association of Retired Persons (AARP) does not imply bias against older citizens. We are not challenging Israel's right to exist or questioning the legitimacy of the Jewish state. There are those who maintain that Israel should never have been created, or who want to see Israel transformed from a Jewish state into a bi-national democracy. We do not. On the contrary, we believe the history of the Jewish people and the norm of national self-determination provide ample justification for a Jewish state. We think the United States should stand willing to come to Israel's assistance if its survival were in jeopardy. And though our primary focus is on the Israel lobby's negative impact on U.S. foreign policy, we are also convinced that its influence has become harmful to Israel as well. In our view, both effects are regrettable.
In addition, the claim that an interest group whose ranks are mostly Jewish has a powerful, not to mention negative, influence on U.S. foreign policy is sure to make some Americans deeply uncomfortable -- and possibly fearful and angry -- because it sounds like a charge lifted from the notorious Protocols of the Elders of Zion, that well-known anti-Semitic forgery that purported to reveal an all-powerful Jewish cabal exercising secret control over the world.
Any discussion of Jewish political power takes place in the shadow of two thousand years of history, especially the centuries of very real anti-Semitism in Europe. Christians massacred thousands of Jews during the Crusades, expelled them en masse from Britain, France, Spain, Portugal, and other places between 1290 and 1497, and confined them to ghettos in other parts of Europe. Jews were violently oppressed during the Spanish Inquisition, murderous pogroms took place in Eastern Europe and Russia on numerous occasions, and other forms of anti-Semitic bigotry were wide spread until recently. This shameful record culminated in the Nazi Holocaust, which killed nearly six million Jews. Jews were also oppressed in parts of the Arab world, though much less severely.
Given this long history of persecution, American Jews are understandably sensitive to any argument that sounds like someone is blaming them for policies gone awry. This sensitivity is compounded by the memory of bizarre conspiracy theories of the sort laid out in the Protocols. Dire warnings of secretive "Jewish influence" remain a staple of neo-Nazis and other extremists, such as the hate-mongering former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke, which reinforces Jewish concerns even more.
A key element of such anti-Semitic accusations is the claim that Jews exercise illegitimate influence by "controlling" banks, the media, and other key institutions. Thus, if someone says that press coverage in the United States tends to favor Israel over its opponents, this may sound to some like the old canard that "Jews control the media." Similarly, if someone points out that American Jews have a rich tradition of giving money to both philanthropic and political causes, it sounds like they are suggesting that "Jewish money" is buying political influence in an underhanded or conspiratorial way. Of course, anyone who gives money to a political campaign does so in order to advance some political cause, and virtually all interest groups hope to mold public opinion and are interested in getting favorable media coverage.
Evaluating the role of any interest group's campaign contributions, lobbying efforts, and other political activities ought to be a fairly uncontroversial exercise, but given past anti-Semitism, one can understand why it is easier to talk about these matters when discussing the impact of the pharmaceutical lobby, labor unions, arms manufacturers, Indian-American groups, etc., rather than the Israel lobby. Making this discussion of pro-Israel groups and individuals in the United States even more difficult is the age-old charge of "dual loyalty." According to this old canard, Jews in the diaspora were perpetual aliens who could never assimilate and be good patriots, because they were more loyal to each other than to the country in which they lived. The fear today is that Jews who support Israel will be seen as disloyal Americans. As Hyman Bookbinder, the former Washington representative of the American Jewish Committee, once commented, "Jews react viscerally to the suggestion that there is something unpatriotic" about their support for Israel.
Let us be clear: we categorically reject all of these anti-Semitic claims. In our view, it is perfectly legitimate for any American to have a significant attachment to a foreign country. Indeed, Americans are permitted to hold dual citizenship and to serve in foreign armies, unless, of course, the other country is at war with the United States. As noted above, there are numerous examples of ethnic groups in America working hard to persuade the U.S. government, as well as their fellow citizens, to support the foreign country for which they feel a powerful bond. Foreign governments are usually aware of the activities of sympathetic ethnically based interest groups, and they have naturally sought to use them to influence the U.S. government and advance their own foreign policy goals. Jewish Americans are no different from their fellow citizens in this regard.
The Israel lobby is not a cabal or conspiracy or anything of the sort. It is engaged in good old-fashioned interest group politics, which is as American as apple pie. Pro-Israel groups in the United States are engaged in the same enterprise as other interest groups like the National Rifle Association (NRA) and the AARP, or professional associations like the American Petroleum Institute, all of which also work hard to influence congressional legislation and presidential priorities, and which, for the most part, operate in the open.
With a few exceptions, to be discussed in subsequent chapters, the lobby's actions are thoroughly American and legitimate.
We do not believe the lobby is all-powerful, or that it controls important institutions in the United States. As we will discuss in several subsequent chapters, there are a number of cases where the lobby did not get its way. Nevertheless, there is an abundance of evidence that the lobby wields impressive influence. The American Israel Public Affairs Committee, one of the most important pro-Israel groups, used to brag about its own power on its website, not only by listing its impressive achievements but also by displaying quotations from prominent politicians that attested to its ability to influence events in ways that benefit Israel. For example, its website used to include a statement from former House Minority Leader Richard Gephardt telling an AIPAC gathering, "Without your constant support ... and all your fighting on a daily basis to strengthen [the U.S.-Israeli relationship], it would not be." Even the out spoken Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz, who is often quick to brand Israel's critics as anti-Semites, wrote in a memoir that "my generation of Jews...became part of what is perhaps the most effective lobbying and fundraising effort in the history of democracy. We did a truly great job, as far as we allowed ourselves, and were allowed, to go."
J. J. Goldberg, the editor of the Jewish weekly newspaper the Forward and the author of Jewish Power: Inside the American Jewish Establishment, nicely captures the difficulty of talking about the lobby: "It seems as though we're forced to choose between Jews holding vast and pernicious control or Jewish influence being nonexistent." In fact, he notes, "somewhere in the middle is a reality that none wants to discuss, which is that there is an entity called the Jewish community made up of a group of organizations and public figures that's part of the political rough-and-tumble. There's nothing wrong with playing the game like everybody else." We agree completely. But we think it is fair and indeed necessary to examine the consequences that this "rough-and-tumble" interest group politics can have on America and the world.
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Comments are closed-
Posted by: writerman on Oct 9, 2007 1:33 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't think any reasonable person can deny that pro-Israel groups have influence in the United States. The question is, how much influence and to what ends? One often gets the impression that the US is some kind of great, lumbering, slow-thinking, bull, with a huge golden ring through its nose, being led around by a super-smart fox holding, and yanking on a silver chain.
At least this appears to be the mythical analogy lots of people seem to believe. I think things are more complecated than that, though one often has one's doubts, especially in relation to US politicians!
People continually ask, or at least the minority that dare to ask, how come such a small country, Israel, which in reality is not that significant, appears to have such a high profile in the American political landscape? Well, put simply, the alliance between the US and Israel is for the benefit of both countries, or at least that's how it's perceived. One could say that Israel has functioned something like a giant US military base in the heart of the Middle-East for decades, and the Middle-East has been the major source of the world's oil and gas, and is therefore of major strategic importance. In return Israel received security garantees from the United States and massive economic and military aide.
The key here is that the relationship was perceived by both Israel and the United States as being, on balance, mutually beneficial to the economic, political, and military interests of both countries. I question these underlying assumptions. But it's a really big subject to get into here and now. So I'll leave that for another day!
» Yes, the fox is leading the Bull. In fact, the fox has said so many times publicly.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Can we be honest? Sy Hersh the Kapo says it is the Zionist influence
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» RE: Yes, the fox is leading the Bull. In fact, the fox has said so many times publicly.
Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: Israelis aren't shy about expressing their influence over America
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
» Israelis aren't shy about anything. Why should this be an exception.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: The comment smells of kerosene
Posted by: werewolf
» Notice how you had to reach all the way back to early 80's to find something different.....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Notice how you had to reach all the way back to early 80's to find something different.....
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Yes, the fox is leading the Bull. In fact, the fox has said so many times publicly.
Posted by: tedhuman7
» Smells kerosene
Posted by: werewolf
Comments are closed-
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Oct 9, 2007 3:04 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If I were a Holocaust survivor, I don't think I'd want my past suffering used as a shield to protect Israeli war crimes and persecution of Palestinians. You would think I'd identify with Palestinian suffering, and see the hypocrisy in Israeli policies. "Never again" should mean never again, for anybody.
To the article's credit, I think it was going in that direction, by saying that the pro-Israeli lobby is nothing more than another interest group, as slimy and full of itself as the oil lobby, the gun lobby, the Religious Right, etc.
But whether the pro-Israeli interests are counterproductive depends on your definition of "productive". While they definitely cause their share of bloodshed and suffering to Palestinians, Israelis, and others, I don't know that they necessarily see suffering and bloodshed as bad things. Just as with Muslim and Christian fanatics, I think many see this as a Biblically inevitable holy war between good and evil, which makes them almost impossible to reason with using peace and harmony as measures of success.
» Six of one ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: "so many disclaimers towards the end"
Posted by: Christie
» As usual Josh answered your question brilliantly.
Posted by: yellow
» A non-Jew is NOT FREE as the Jew in Democratic America
Posted by: werewolf
» what nonsense
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: "so many disclaimers towards the end"
Posted by: Lauren
» Exactly!
Posted by: werewolf
Comments are closed-
Posted by: exhibit on Oct 9, 2007 3:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is not a coincidence that the most vicious Iraq - bashers were Jewish: from Wolfowitz, Feith, Perle, Libby, and Abrams to Adelman, Brooks, Krauthammer, Safire, Judith Miller and Kristol, to name just a few of the countless activists. This fifth column must be exposed to prevent further damage to our treasure and life. Manipulation of intelligence and public opinion that went into Iraqi enterprise is nothing short of treason of historical proportions. And the Lobby was a crucial factor in ramming the war through. There were other powerful interests involved - emporium-builders/oil securing corporate types, crusaders and political opportunists like brains of our shrub. For the mass media overwhelmingly owned and staffed by the Lobby a nice bonus was economic value of the reality show entitled The War.
To paraphrase: Never in the history of the mankind, so many across the world did not suffer so much for so few (fanatic settlers) to gain so little (land and water of the West Bank). Sure, there will be still plenty to deal with, but you cannot start making any progress without decisively addressing that glaring injustice.
» Good commentary, but your forgot the bankers in that Iraq special interest group as well.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Good commentary, but your forgot the bankers in that Iraq special interest group as well.
Posted by: outsideagitator
» Bush asked for fake evidence and deliberately lied to congress. This has nothing to do with da Jooz!
Posted by: yellow
» Yellow, you make my point.... NO ONE SAID ANYTHING ABOUT "DA JOOZ" except you. I am talking...
Posted by: Prophit
» The idea is to falsely convey the idea of a Jewish Conspiricy without actually mentioning Jews.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: The idea is to falsely convey the idea of a Jewish Conspiricy without actually mentioning Jews.
Posted by: werewolf
» Laughably antiquated propaganda!
Posted by: gretavo
» RE: Laughably antiquated propaganda!
Posted by: andy_f_90
» Andy_f_90, what an excellent summary of the issue.
Posted by: Prophit
» You seem to enjoy putting words in my mouth, gretavo. All I said was Osama did 9/11 and no one else.
Posted by: yellow
» I have to comment.... spontaneous decision by the FD to pull building 7? Doesn't it take days to do
Posted by: Prophit
» ummm... yellow, you're confusing your cover stories...
Posted by: gretavo
» if WTC7 was intentionally demolished then why have these contracts been awarded?
Posted by: gretavo
» WTC7 was "pulled down" period.
Posted by: yellow
» I thought that it was widely acknowledged that WTC 7 was Pulled Down to avoid further damage.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: 9/11 is the price of Lobby's power, now Iraq is paying, Iran next
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: 9/11 is the price of Lobby's power, now Iraq is paying, Iran next
Posted by: CatDad
» The oil lobby, bankers interests and AIPAC are all in concert on that issue Cat Dad....
Posted by: Prophit
» Exhibit's analysis is fully correct
Posted by: Whitecliff
» You clearly want to stir the American People up against da Jooz. It won't work. People want us here.
Posted by: yellow
» You need to get off "Da Jooz" kick and reread these writings..... its the influence of Israel that..
Posted by: Prophit
» don't forget they also attacked the USS Liberty in 1967
Posted by: gretavo
» Israel doesn't spy on the US. Pollard passed info he shouldn't have as a naval officer. The are just
Posted by: yellow
» RE: xhibit's analysis is fully correct
Posted by: AsteroidMiner
» Wow, thanks for that information.... I had no idea. Learn something new through open ....
Posted by: Prophit
» This first paragraph is ignorant . Jews Became a nationality through segregation in the diaspora.
Posted by: yellow
» The Bell Curve
Posted by: ray burchard
» google NYTimes Indian American Lobby
Posted by: gretavo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: stevewilkesuk on Oct 9, 2007 4:22 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Think about it for a second - the US pursued the Vietnam war at a cost of 48,000 soldiers and billions and billions of dollars - did they do that because of the pro-South-Vietnam lobby? Of course not, they did it because it was in line with certain imperialistic foreign policy objectives. The same is true of the US's behaviour with regards Israeli interests.
» You are partially correct in your assessment, however, wrong in the comparison to Viet Nam.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: You are partially correct in your assessment, however, wrong in the comparison to Viet Nam.
Posted by: goldmarx
» The result "MIGHT" be the same but at least its our internal discussion, arguments and final......
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Don't think so.
Posted by: fearn
» "...did they do that because of the pro-South-Vietnam lobby?"
Posted by: Sojourner
» False duality and a non sequitur.
Posted by: justaguy
» RE: eally don't think so.
Posted by: spaghetti happens
» Maybe you forgot about the Osirik Reactor Bombing in 1981 by Israel. It's why there was no WMDs.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: eally don't think so.
Posted by: TKO
» RE: eally don't think so.
Posted by: TKO
» Long rant caused reboot.
Posted by: TKO
Comments are closed-
» RE: for peace
Posted by: rocketman
» RE: for peace
Posted by: Tom Degan
Comments are closed-
Posted by: maxpayne on Oct 9, 2007 4:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: abdullahiedward on Oct 9, 2007 5:35 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hear him:
The United States provides the support without which Israel could not maintain its repression of human rights and its territorial expansion. This collusive relationship severely damages the U.S. influence and credibility worldwide. It has led our government into a disgraceful practice of turning a blind eye to Israeli violations of both international and U.S. law, a habit widely noted by foreign leaders.
– Paul Findley, CNI Founding Chairman
» Was it really necessary to post this garbage in triplicate. Findley's book is quite easy to find.
Posted by: yellow
» Not to mention the numerous UN resolutions against Israel and their Nukes that are ignored.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: abdullahi
Posted by: abdullahiedward
Comments are closed-
Posted by: abdullahiedward on Oct 9, 2007 5:37 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hear him:
"The United States provides the support without which Israel could not maintain its repression of human rights and its territorial expansion. This collusive relationship severely damages the U.S. influence and credibility worldwide. It has led our government into a disgraceful practice of turning a blind eye to Israeli violations of both international and U.S. law, a habit widely noted by foreign leaders."
– Paul Findley, CNI Founding Chairman
Comments are closed-
Posted by: abdullahiedward on Oct 9, 2007 5:40 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hear him:
The United States provides the support without which Israel could not maintain its repression of human rights and its territorial expansion. This collusive relationship severely damages the U.S. influence and credibility worldwide. It has led our government into a disgraceful practice of turning a blind eye to Israeli violations of both international and U.S. law, a habit widely noted by foreign leaders.
– Paul Findley, CNI Founding Chairman
Comments are closed-
Posted by: LMNOP on Oct 9, 2007 5:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The beauty of the borin'-agains' interest in Israel is that they merely intend to preserve it so that Jeebus, according to Revelations, can destroy it as it is commonly interpreted. Plus, it's very existence "proves" that the Bible must be authentic.
After all, what are the odds that that one country would reappear in the world? LOL. Without human intervention, nil. But it was done in the face of common sense, in all likelihood to give the Lowered's "prophecies" a little help. Hardly prophetic.
But it was a good a good way to create decades (if not centuries) of bloodshed. And we know how America loves war. So, it's a real lose-lose all the way around. No wonder it's the lynchpin of American foreign policy.
I'm to the point that when I see the words Middle East, Israel, Iran or Iraq, I stop reading. Knesset, Likud, Hezbollah, I’ve been exposed to that crap for a lifetime, and it’s both a dead end and boring. Especially since the strife is undoubtedly deliberate.
» paragraph #1: my sentiments exactly
Posted by: hurricane hugo
» But I like paragraph 0.5. Prayz the lowered. Cracker accent much??
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rocketman on Oct 9, 2007 6:26 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
One thing is certain in our political landscape, money talks, no matter what the message is.
The Israeli lobby in this country is more organized than our own government. I know of a number of wealthy Jews that take a yearly trip to Israel, state sponsored, and make enormous donations to the country and are fed large amounts of food , drink and propaganda. They inturn make enromous donations/support to lobby groups in this country. It basically boils down to a large influential group of "Americans" who want their country to give undying support to another country. They are for Israel first, America second and make no pretense to appear otherwise!
and if a politican dares come out against this, they are branded as Jew haters, Nazis and non believers in the Holcaust instead of Americans!
It's ok to support an ally, but not to drive a country to ruin for one!
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Frankstank on Oct 9, 2007 6:37 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Israel, and it is always worth remembering, was set up under a UN mandate, the UN was set up on an American idea to replace the failed League of Nations. After WWII and the Holocaust, this made a lot of sense.
Right after the founding of Israel by a UN mandate, the country was attacked by its neighbours. Israel fought back and won; just as they have done up until the 2006 failed war in Lebanon. The country has always been under severe threat and that is why it has an impressive defense structure to protect itself. America backs Israel because Israel has shown itself to be in the most part a prosperous free and democratic country. Such countries are worth supporting.
There is nothing sinister about Israel, its lobby groups (it is easy to find out this information), or even things like the Project for a New American Century. All this stuff is out there and on the public record. There is no conspiracy.
» RE: This is raw anti-semitism
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: This is raw anti-semitism
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: "raw anti-semitism" The truth is handy but often ignored!
Posted by: fearn
» RE: This is raw anti-semitism
Posted by: davidbdr
» RE: This is raw anti-semitism
Posted by: mont
» RE: This is raw anti-semitism
Posted by: Lauren
» W&M's book is 100X worse than the Protocols!!
Posted by: gretavo
» But I know you like the Protocols so much better. It is printed in BIG type and easier to read.
Posted by: yellow
» This is raw "anti-Americanism"
Posted by: rocketman
» You quoteth UN mandates and Israel in the same sentence. I senseth a little hypocrisy.
Posted by: american
» American. I'm Glad to see you're reading Shakespeare. It can only help improve your English skills.
Posted by: yellow
» I'm rather more concerned about my moral and ethical skills, unlike you, unfortunately for
Posted by: american
» RE: This is raw anti-semitism
Posted by: Gisele
» Horsepuckies?? BTW, The Israelis are OK with you handing out bibles. Don't they just love handouts?
Posted by: yellow
» Subtleties in usage do lend clarity and help understanding; they can also accomplish the opposite
Posted by: american
» Your view is exactly the Nazi one which explain's your anti-semitism. Marr was a Nazi precursor.
Posted by: yellow
» You brought Marr up...then you twisted history around 180 degrees. He was before Nazis....
Posted by: american
» RE: This is raw anti-semitism - no its not, its healthy discussion.... we are still a free country.
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: This is raw anti-semitism
Posted by: babs
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Posted by: downwithpatriotism on Oct 9, 2007 6:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's time to wage a holy war against these zionists before the entire world goes up. Otherwise, the entire world is going to be ablaze.
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Posted by: downwithpatriotism on Oct 9, 2007 6:49 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's time to wage a holy war against these zionists before the entire world goes up. Otherwise, the entire world is going to be ablaze.
Comments are closed-
Posted by: peacelf on Oct 9, 2007 6:50 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I think the authors captured the totality of Israeli-American influence on Congress and american presidents when they pointed out the power of the pro-Israel lobby in Washington.
Like american corporations, politicians give back to those who give generously to their campaigns. It may be just that simple.
It's not as if polticians have done much to protect the american worker from corporations shipping manufacturing jobs overseas or euphemistically "outsourcing" professional jobs. Nor, do politicians protect americans from corporate power and abuse, only enough to make the appearance of protection.
No doubt that political support is tenuous, even politically dangerous, especially when Israel commits some atrocity of war against innocent civilians and with the ongoing Apartheid of Palestinians and encroachment on Palestinian lands. But, where's the political outrage?
Further, it's difficult to criticize Israel when our own nation's history is no different, or for fear of being called an anti-Semite, but this is a poor excuse. In order to further democracy both in the U.S. and the world, we must be critical. I think the authors failed in that regard.
Indeed, I hope Mearsheimer and Walt's book is slightly more critical. Otherwsie what they said is no different than the politicans. For example, they write:
"The Israel lobby is not a cabal or conspiracy or anything of the sort. It is engaged in good old-fashioned interest group politics, which is as American as apple pie..."
which implies what? if the Palestinians would just form their own lobby in Washington, they'd have a fighting chance. Maybe then Palestinians would get their slice of the apple pie.
American politicans must see the writing on the wall. Like Enron, Israel is a political liability. If they continue to brutalize and subjugate the Palestinians, american economic divestment is imminent.
Moreover, the american empire is on the decline, and Israel would be smart to take steps toward a lasting peace in the Middle East, end the subjugation and brutality of Palestinians, because their existence IS dependent on U.S. support. And, U.S. politicians will cut their losses when it becomes politically expedient.
Finally, I disagree with the authors on this point in particular: Israel should be transformed from a Jewish state into a bi-national democracy. That would be the only way to morally substantiate their existence. Otherwise, they don't deserve to call themselves a democracy and they definitely don't deserve U.S. foreign aid.
Peace in the Middle East!
» RE: Israel is an ETHNOCRACY, NOT a democracy!
Posted by: wawa
» Besides America are there really very many NON-ETHNOCRACIES in the world today? Think about it.
Posted by: yellow
» I thought about it and you're entirely wrong.
Posted by: justaguy
» What defies common sense does not originate from common sense.
Posted by: american
» There are actually very few Jews in Banking in the US. It has always been very Protestant.
Posted by: yellow
» You need to read about the ownership of the fed res before speaking.
Posted by: Prophit
» hasn't the federal resevre chairman been Jewish like 90% of the time since its inception?
Posted by: gretavo
» You have no facts just Jewish conspiricy myths. Paul Volcker was the first Jewish FED chair in 1979.
Posted by: yellow
» RE: Israel & Co
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: It's selfish, myopic...
Posted by: peacelf
Comments are closed-
Posted by: daw13 on Oct 9, 2007 6:54 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» This is a double edged sword. Israel makes it both harder and easier for US imperialism.
Posted by: yellow
» Myth_dispel: Israel is NOT necessary for US miltary success strategically in ME.
Posted by: american
» You don't get it. Israel was thought of as a strategic asset during the cold war.
Posted by: yellow
» Perhaps, but we know the reasons for things aren't alway's what people say they are.
Posted by: american
» not... at.. all.
Posted by: gretavo
» Lets assume your correct, look at what the US did to Saddam.... Can you see Israel....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: Lets assume your correct, look at what the US did to Saddam.... Can you see Israel....
Posted by: daw13
Comments are closed-
Posted by: rtmyth on Oct 9, 2007 7:07 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: wawa on Oct 9, 2007 7:21 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Crticising UNJUST Israeli government policy is NOT anti-Semitic, but most in keeping with what Israel was based upon, for "From Moses to Jeremiah and Isaiah, the Prophets taught...that the Jewish claim on the land of Israel was totally contingent on the moral and spiritual life of the Jews who lived there, and that the land would, as the Torah tells us, 'vomit you out' if people did not live according to the highest moral vision of Torah. Over and over again, the Torah repeated its most frequently stated mitzvah [command]: "When you enter your land, do not oppress the stranger; the other, the one who is an outsider of your society, the powerless one and then not only 'you shall love your neighbor as yourself' but also 'you shall love the other.'"-Rabbi Lerner, TIKKUN Magazine, page 35, Sept./Oct. 2007
eileen fleming
Reporter and Editor http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "Keep Hope Alive" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer "30 Minutes With Vanunu."
» RE: WAKING UP from the Holocaust Hangover
Posted by: DaBear
» Excellent. Well put and very enlightening. Thanks
Posted by: Prophit
» google David Cole
Posted by: gretavo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: ray burchard on Oct 9, 2007 7:37 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Then as America’s adopted Jews propagated and with the aid of nepotism, grew their hierarchy dominance in the fields of entertainment/news, and academia’s medical, judicial and financial direction, well if one was to dominate, not by an overwhelming majority but with a decisive edge, like (9 to 8.9999... ) then the “advantage of leverage is your’s and you have effectively cloned yourself. Therefore America’s growing love and there by allegiance to a mercantile mentality as a collective commerce mindset. Where everything is than a pathetic analogy equated to money.
Now we American’s may not all go to the same synagogue, but we worship at the same alter, the cash register.
» RE: progenitor/progeny as nature's progression
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: progenitor/progeny as nature's progression
Posted by: ray burchard
» America was a result of debtors prisoners being used as slaves to settle British territory.
Posted by: Prophit
» A scholarship dedicated to the superfluous
Posted by: ray burchard
Comments are closed-
Posted by: NoPCZone on Oct 9, 2007 7:41 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» ^^^
Posted by: hurricane hugo
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Posted by: Jim Shaw on Oct 9, 2007 8:08 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
2. There is one presidential candidate who has demonstrated a willingness to confront the Israel Lobby: Dennis Kucinich. This fine man was interviewed at length on PBS’s “Newshour” program last week, and he pointedly advocated a more evenhanded Israel/Palestine policy. He also stated that “the road to peace in the Middle East goes straight through Jerusalem.” Maybe he can only do this because he's so far down in the polls, but nevertheless he deserves credit.
3. I don’t find the posters convincing who claim that the U.S. only supports Israel to further its own interests in the region. There are two reasons: one, our unqualified support for Israel is fueling the hatred and sense of victimization that drive Islamic extremism, as well as alienating countries from which we need cooperation in combating this extremism – conditions hardly in our best interests; and two, I have observed over many years the virtually complete lack of criticism of even the most egregious Israeli behavior by U.S. politicians. I have also noted in the few instances when mostly novice Congresspersons have voiced even tepid questions about Israeli policy or American support thereof, the firestorm of indignation that has ensued, always accompanied by charges of anti-Semitism. Equally noteworthy has been the reluctance of any other public officials to come to the defense of the poor, offending rube, who then typically gives a teary apology and henceforth faithfully hews to Lobby policy and rhetoric. In my view, these symptoms can only be the result of dread fear of the Israel Lobby.
» RE: A Few Notes
Posted by: Lauren
» I agree, I just posted a link showing hte difference between the "Jews" and the "Israeli" ....
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Axiom69 on Oct 9, 2007 8:19 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: Just another lobby
Posted by: DCBeltway
» RE: Just another lobby
Posted by: Axiom69
» RE: Just another lobby
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: Just another lobby
Posted by: Axiom69
» The difference is ITS OUR FOREIGN AID THAT IS USED TO FUND THE LOBBYING.
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cef on Oct 9, 2007 8:23 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: Israel Lobby
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» In other words, cef, read the whole book.
Posted by: yellow
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Shiv on Oct 9, 2007 8:33 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» Really?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: eally?
Posted by: Shiv
» RE: eally?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: eally?
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: eally?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: eally?
Posted by: Shiv
» RE: eally?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: eally?
Posted by: Lauren
» The Native-American faced a Genocide!! Of the 18 million found by Columbus, there are 500,000 left!!
Posted by: yellow
» RE: The Native-American faced a Genocide!! Of the 18 million found by Columbus, there are 500,000 left!!
Posted by: Shiv
» RE: The Native-American faced a Genocide!! Of the 18 million found by Columbus, there are 500,000 le
Posted by: Lauren
» RE: The Native-American faced a Genocide!! Of the 18 million found by Columbus, there are 500,000 le
Posted by: particle
» Unfortunately, Yellow, the American Indian did not have the foreign aid in the billions to buy .....
Posted by: Prophit
» RE: You're absolutely right...but then what ELSE would you expect from ZionistLite jews??
Posted by: ekipnrut
» KIP you probably don't know anything about Zionism other than what you read in THE FINAL CALL.
Posted by: yellow
» There has been a lot written lately about that professional "victimization" that has been used...
Posted by: Prophit
Comments are closed-
Posted by: yellow on Oct 9, 2007 9:36 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: We'll have fun, fun, fun, till they close the comments. Let's all play nice.
Posted by: outsideagitator
» RE: We'll have fun, fun, fun, till they close the comments. Let's all play nice.
Posted by: DaBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: american on Oct 9, 2007 10:46 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Perhaps this fashion of people's behavior is a result of constrictions in people's ability to be themselves culturally in the realms of business, social organizations, and government. I have the feeling that the change in the way Americans behave is more top down rather than authentic. Alas, a statement like the preceding is out-of-bounds, however: reflexively criticize-able. A person has to couch easily-ascertainable opinions in rationality, scientific method or some sort of academic construction that, while wholly valid and valuable, has the capacity to remove the authenticity of authoritative and conclusive thinking from people, especially common people, and remove it to a sterilized, more controlled environment. What seemed in the past like a common-sense decision, entirely valid for consideration by common-sense people is removed to the recesses of special, isolated, arenas of expertise causing "valid" discussion on otherwise ascertainalble subjects to be removed from common people and, oft, common sense.
Now people say you shouldn't wax nostalgic, because the past is, indeed, gone and besides, is somewhat of an illusion due to selective retention. But I defend my respect for my fathers and mothers and the simpler way they lived and worked, and perhaps evaluated things, for the reason that it is the wholesome, authentic, and grounded things in life that people most want and ultimately return to in their deeper selves (methinks). One can have a yacht, friends with recognizable names, and a ten-bathroom home, but if they haven’t got possessions on the more essential and spiritual side of their beings, their lives really can’t be full.
In the fashioning of ourselves to this contrived society of ours—and the abrogation of common sense has much to do with this—we have become contrived inside as well.
This is all just my opinion. But in deference to the argument for common sense, let me use some to talk about just one of the things this article says.
The article says that the Israeli lobby is one of the most powerful interest groups and is like a 51st state. But I would say it is the most powerful lobby. The federal government is willing to push auto emissions rules on California residents, a majority of whom find the regulations detestable and unethical. California clearly does not have the clout that Israel does; it couldn’t get the names of 70 senators on a napkin to support the popular initiatives. The same thing goes for the Northeastern States: they had to sue the administration for popularly supported power plant emissions reductions that were easily achievable. This latter move was supported by industry. Any economic losses due to the required change in technology would stand miniscule to the five-thousand-five-hundred million dollars the US provides to Israel each year without any questions. The amount of federal dollars provided to Israel each year exceeds the amount provided to Vermont as well as a couple of other states each year. Who has more say in Washington, Israel or Vermont? Lastly, who has more say in the US, Israel or US citizens? The majority of US citizens want Iraqi troops to return home. The Israel lobby wants a continued military presence in Iraq. The majority of US citizens do not want war with Iran. The Israeli lobby does. The irony of this is that the US may be clearly spending this money in what actually is detrimental to the nation's vital economic, diplomatic and security interests.
Am I making any sense?
» RE: It is more taboo to criticize Israel than the US and less taboo to be for Israel than America
Posted by: screwjack2000
» Valid assertion, truly. Objectively speaking however I think they were simpler.
Posted by: american
» RE: It is more taboo to criticize Israel than the US and less taboo to be for Israel than America
Posted by: downwithpatriotism
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Lector on Oct 9, 2007 10:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And the Lobby has always been able to place Israel’s interests over the interests of peace or stability in the Middle East. It has detered U.S. Middle East policy as far back as the post WWII period with presidents since Truman. The Lobby seem to act as enablers, making possible a radical-nihilist Bush-Cheney regime that is bent on war.
The power of the Lobby to shape U.S. policy and make or break Congressional careers may be a myth to some but the example of George McGovern in 1970 when he blew most of the big money from Jews for his future campaign as president because he insisted that the UN was the proper forum to seek a fair and lasting resolution of the Israeli-Arab conflict, did him in. There are many other examples. No candidate wants to go against the Lobby. It’s amazing how a micro nation like Israel can leverage the power of the United States.
Robert Lightfoot
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Posted by: Shiv on Oct 9, 2007 12:06 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Crazy H on Oct 9, 2007 12:11 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Quote: "...There is a strong moral case for Israel's existence..."
What, pray tell, is that strong moral case? The author doesn't tell us, but a few pages later says, "...especially its important role as a safe haven for Jewish refugees from the Holocaust"
Why is that? If that's the 'strong moral case' - then why didn't we give them Germany or Italy? Is it because the bible talks about a Jewish homeland? Since when is the bible a source for today's law? It's also the Palestinian homeland, and they were living there at the time. Or is it because Germans and Italians are nominally Christians? We can't steal some Christians' land, now can we? That would be downright un-Christian!
The author notes that a lot of Jews were killed during the Crusades. That may be true - but a hell of a lot of Muslims were killed as well. Don't they count? If that's the "strong moral case," then why didn't we give Israel to the Muslims?
The "strong moral case" is the same as it's always been: "Might makes right." And as long as we choose live by that rule, we can hardly complain when our victims exercise their "rights" by way of "might."
» RE: Cold light of reason
Posted by: DaBear
» RE: Cold light of reason
Posted by: screwjack2000
Comments are closed-
Posted by: DaBear on Oct 9, 2007 12:17 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A person cannot win a political campaign without presenting themselves as an image, a "packaged" product, a product to invest in. The people paying for action on their behalf (corporations & trade groups) invest in politician-products. You want your job? Stick to your packaging and make sure your packaging/product is appealing to the investor. The Israel Lobby is an investor who spends BIG--and it's really important to remember there are other investors who spend much MUCH BIGger! Every politician knows "the People" only generate a thing called a vote (with unaccountable electronic voting in a process rife with documented fraud, even a natural person is not necessarly linked to a "vote"; i.e., votes can be purchased, so who gives a fuck about a person?). Every investor has attached to it (via packaging and images) a range or block of votes. That's why none of the candidates pay any attention to what polls tell them citizens (natural people not legal people) want from them (well, unless the pollster is also an investor, then they care very much). This is seen by the political class as simply a business decision. Why do politicians bow to the Israel lobby? Duh. The Israel Lobby invests in their product. People don't mean shit to them.
Israel--a nation with a political system much like 'Merkuh's-- invests in products that they hope will give them what they need or want. Politician-products pay attention to their investors. It's Kapitalism-on-crack, 'Merkaan style.
Amer'kins would do well to change that kind of system, so that political realities and processes no longer follow the business plan but start following the self-governance plan (i.e., democracy, for those of us who don't get it yet). In that alternative universe, the Israel Lobby, like all investors, doesn't have a voice and it doesn't have any influence. In that world politicians are statespersons not products, who can love a sister nation just fine, while still being able to call said sister out when she's fucking up. In that alternative world politicians help addict-nations get sober, not give them more crack.
But we're stuck in Kaptialism-on-crack posing as politiks and we get one sick addict-nation ('Merkuh) helping another sick addict-nation (Israel) stay addicted. The solution isn't simple, it's comprehensive and complicated and it takes a healthy sibling with commitment, love, and dollars/shek'lim to implement. An addict can't help another addict get clean. 'Merkuh needs to take a break to heal herself first. Everything we do right now as an addict-nation just fucks everyone else up, intentions don't mean jack.
Same thing with 'Merkuh's politics: if you vote for the politician who's stuck in this system, even when its a vote based on "anything's better than a Repuke," you're still just giving the heroin addict a speedball. Congratulations, you've contributed to the fuck-ups fucking up the world. You've changed nothing.
The continual critique of the Israel Lobby absent change to the biz-model politikal system, is just fodder for antisemitism and all of our baser natures.
» Interesting metaphor. I disagree that it is hard, though, because the addicts running this county
Posted by: american
» RE: Interesting metaphor. I disagree that it is hard, though, because the addicts running this county
Posted by: DaBear
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Reader11722 on Oct 9, 2007 12:38 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: Zionists run the world (at least the US/European countries)
Posted by: Lauren
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Shiv on Oct 9, 2007 1:16 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» RE: Some points made by Ahmadinejad
Posted by: screwjack2000
» RE: Some points made by Ahmadinejad
Posted by: parmenicleitus
» RE: Settling is not the same as demanding your own nation
Posted by: Shiv
» RE: Settling is not the same as demanding your own nation
Posted by: parmenicleitus
» Another paradigm: everyone fend for themselves and lie in the beds they make.
Posted by: american
Comments are closed-
Posted by: screwjack2000 on Oct 9, 2007 1:27 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Comments are closed-
Posted by: cinderfella on Oct 9, 2007 1:27 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Really, it's that simple folks! Do your homework and think for yourselves and don't buy into the political dribble.
Cinderfella
» Study history yourself!
Posted by: hagwind
Comments are closed-
Posted by: WitchyNy on Oct 9, 2007 2:38 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jews are smart. They could figure out solar and alternative energy and we could shut down the coal mines and Nuke plants and end this latest insane war at the same time.
Then we won't have this division of loyality between American Jews and Israel. THEN--we won't have kids dying-Arab or Jews or American kids.
Let a Jew be President. We all know some rich guy is always going to have the job. As long as he or she is smart enough to protect the environment, stop global warming, develop alternative energy, support unions and education, socialized health care, good green housing and good jobs, and be truly progressive in a vision for all Americans-and all the world--who the hell cares?
Well the Native American Indians will. Sorry guys.
Why don't we give them a couple states of their own while we are at it?
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Posted by: johndoraemi on Oct 9, 2007 2:46 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Vehicle possibly related to New York terrorist attack. White, 2000 Chevrolet van with New Jersey registration with 'Urban Moving Systems' sign on back seen at Liberty State Park, Jersey City, NJ, at the time of first impact of jetliner into World Trade Center.
"Three individuals with van were seen celebrating after initial impact and subsequent explosion. FBI Newark Field Office requests that, if the van is located, hold for prints and detain individuals." --Bergen Record, FIVE MEN DETAINED AS SUSPECTED CONSPIRATORS, BERGEN RECORD Wednesday, September 12, 2001
Corroborating a van full of explosives at the G.W. Bridge
The Limits of Ketcham's / Counterpunch's Israeli Hangout
Orwell's Triumph - There is no van full of explosives reported at the George Washington Bridge.
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Posted by: Whitecliff on Oct 9, 2007 2:51 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That being said, I support the right of Jews to a sovereign homeland run by Jews and for Jews, seeing as most of their problems seem to stem from never having a place to call home and by the fact that they have always been hated and chased from place to place; all of this wandering has damaged their collective psyche to a great extent, and Israel can help to remedy this and heal collective Jewry. Israel is not going anywhere, and Jews (as a distinct ethnic group) have a right to a land to call their own like all other people on Earth -- so a two-state solution is the only answer. But why are so many Jews now leaving Israel than are settling there?
Also, anyone that has a problem with the pharmaceutical industry in America should take issue with Israel; so many of the non-needed pills and medicines that Americans take these days are manufactured in Israel, marked up a few thousand percent, and then consumed by gullible Americans. Do you have ADD, restless syndrome, or depression [all of which can be fully managed by a sensible diet and exercise]? Israel has a pill for you!
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Posted by: andy_f_90 on Oct 9, 2007 3:05 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Truly you must be living in a cave not to see daily examples of unyielding and often hypocritical support to Israel by US politicians, elite, and media...
Few *Recent* example:
-As reported here on Alternet: The revered man of peace, Archbishop Desmond Tutu of South Africa was to give a speech at a Jesuit University, only to be barred because the university officials went around soliciting "Jewish opinion" of the man, which it turns out is not good since he hasn't been s "favorable enough of Israel" to their liking.
-The smear against Jimmy Carter, another man of peace, because he highlighted the plight of the suffering Palestinian Christians and Muslims under Israel's apartheid policy of land confiscations, house demolitions, "Jews only" settler expansion.
-Alan Dershowitz, the perennial Israel lobby's attack dog in academia, unleashing what he does best against respected Holocaust survivor and fellow Professor, Norman Finkelstein, for his courageous stand highlighting how Israel milks its victim-hood past without shame.
-Hillary and other Democrats beholden to the lobby, saying they have no problem with Israel again aggressing against its neighbor (Syria this time) to attack its "nuclear materials allegedly coming from N. Korea" only for it to be confirmed it was not a nuclear but a legitimate Syrian military defense site. Yet the parroting of "Israel is our ally and only democracy" continues...
-The US state Dept warned against NATO-ally Turkey not to cross border and attack Kurdish fighters who've been attacking Turkey and launching rockets as "irresponsible and unproductive" yet when Israel attacks Palestinian who are firing crude-homemade rockets mind you (not the 2 ton bombs delivered by the US to Israel) it is "legitimate self-defense"
So yeah laughable propaganda.
» RE: Norman Finkelstein, a small correction
Posted by: parmenicleitus
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Posted by: shoosta on Oct 9, 2007 3:33 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: rhos710 on Oct 9, 2007 4:05 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: wishninja on Oct 9, 2007 4:50 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ekipnrut on Oct 9, 2007 6:50 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» Yes, now how about hearing from America, England, Germany, and...
Posted by: american
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Posted by: humanity101 on Oct 9, 2007 6:58 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ekipnrut on Oct 9, 2007 7:11 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: humanity101 on Oct 9, 2007 7:13 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: yellow on Oct 9, 2007 10:43 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Also, no good answer has ever been given as to why the Arab states expelled over 800,000 peaceful, non-Zionist Jews who lived in the Arab World for centuries. Some, as the did Bagdad Jewish Community, lived in these places since way before the Arab conquest. Suddenly, as if to punish them for a movement that was purely European, Arab state leaders expelled their Jewish populations to Israel. All these Arab leaders did was to strengthen Israel against the Arab World and give credibility to the Zionist claim that Arab states were not merely anti-Israel, but were anti-Jewish. There was some Zionist provocation to promote Mizrachi Jewish emmigration such as the Bagdad synagogue bombing in the early 1950s, but most of the emmigration was through forcible expulsion. By the way, much of the property of these Mizrachim was confiscated upon leaving their countries of origin.
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Posted by: Sojourner on Oct 9, 2007 11:29 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In fact, Mersheimer is so vague about who is the "lobby" that it amounts to shouting "fire" in a crowded theater. While he, of course, denies anti-Semitic intentions, and I believe him, his resort to vague generalized accusations about some boogeyman are so inflammatory, they sure sound like simple-minded prejudice.
Upthread, one poster asks why no "anti-Vietnam lobby" was required for that huge military mistake but Israel is held accountable for the huge Iraq mistake? That question has so far received no reply because, I expect, there is none. Would that those who are forced into silence by reasonable inquiry might just decide that a wider silence is appropriate.
» RE: Mearsheimer on the PBS News Hour tonight was not very convincing.
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Don't know about that
Posted by: american
» RE: Don't know about that
Posted by: Joshua Holland
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Posted by: Shiv on Oct 10, 2007 9:14 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
» Source this
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Source this
Posted by: Shiv
My Experience with a Psychedelic Plant That Thousands Have Used for Release from Severe Addictions
Is Using a Checklist the Answer to All Your Problems?
On Anniversary of Iraq Invasion, Time to Rethink Anti-War Activism




