COMMENTS: 141
The Conflicted Consumer
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Posted by: drew on Sep 26, 2007 2:59 AM
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Posted by: wushih on Sep 26, 2007 4:45 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Reich also fails to mention that many have been deceived by the public relations efforts of stores like Walmart, which has done an excellent job portraying itself as an inherently American company that is part of the American community.
It isn't a choice to shop at Walmart as much as it is a necessity or simply not thought about.
Reich also fails to discuss the resistance to Walmart. There are plenty of consumers who refuse to shop there. There are plenty of consumers who start campaigns to keep Walmart out of their communities.
The problem isn't consumer choice; it's hegemony, and right now, Walmart represents it. Walmart is a naturalized part of the capitalist economy. For many, it is not a choice, but part of an unconscious acceptance that it is perfectly natural to shop at Walmart. Reich is stuck in an elitist, Enlightenment grand narrative about free will and independent choice.
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» RE: Misses the point
Posted by: ecofriendlynet
» Not a Free Market
Posted by: socialpsych
» BOYCOTT!
Posted by: Cathyc
» Consider the dynamic
Posted by: Ignatz deFyre
» Misses the point? Sure, if you didn't read past the first page.
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Misses the point? Sure, if you believe only act according to rational self-interest
Posted by: wushih
» RE: Misses the point? Sure, if you believe only act according to rational self-interest
Posted by: Ignatz deFyre
» Rational self interest is only part of the story
Posted by: Drclaw
» RE: rational self interest is only part of the story
Posted by: Ignatz deFyre
» Who's talking about "rational" self-interest?
Posted by: hagwind
» Psychological Rape
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Misses the point
Posted by: MobileSucks
» RE: Misses the point
Posted by: Cathyc
» Trampling on the human rights of American people too!
Posted by: Cathyc
» Hegemony & Monopoly
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BlackbirdHighway on Sep 26, 2007 5:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People there are not so much focused exclusively on money as in the US. They value main street with it's little shops, even if it is much more expensive to shop there. They also don't seek status through rich possesions as much as Americans, and leisure, lifestyle, and environmental quality issues are generally considered more important than working long hours to make lots of money.
I'm not sure if these attitudes are why they have such a strong social safety net, with strong health care, retirement, and worker protections, or if the safety net is what fosters the attitudes. Maybe they both simply go hand in hand.
When most Americans visit these places at first they are shocked that the values and attitudes are so different. But after spending some time there, you start to think that maybe Americans need to consider changes to their own attitudes.
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» RE: People need to get outside the US more
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: People need to get outside the US more
Posted by: AussieGeoff
» RE: People need to get outside the US more
Posted by: MAD
» Tidal Wave
Posted by: suprmark
» RE: People need to get outside the US more
Posted by: AussieGeoff
» RE: People need to get outside the US more
Posted by: somegirl
» DRIVE DOWN A SUBURBAN STREET ON SATURDAY AND LOOK INTO OPEN GARAGES
Posted by: mdruss42
» RE: DRIVE DOWN A SUBURBAN STREET ON SATURDAY AND LOOK INTO OPEN GARAGES
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: People need to get outside the US more
Posted by: MAD
» Of course the rest of the world will do a "monkey see, monkey do" since the same
Posted by: mdruss42
» Insular America
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Whitecliff on Sep 26, 2007 5:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do some research and you will find that even the goddamned fascists of the 1920s-30s-40s were EXTREMELY protective of local/regional economies and their native industries, bucking the trend of Soviet style globalization/centralization that was beginning to occur at that time.
So yes, while we Americans continue to feed and feed and feed at the disgusting trough of 'globalization' local economies continue to be wiped out and America's citizens are made more and more HOPELESSLY AND UTTERLY DEPENDENT on international corporations run by money hungry CEOs and number-crunching computers to meet their daily survival needs. This is no longer CAPITALISM because there is no longer any possible competition except at the most minor of levels -- we are living under some freakish form of international crony billionairism with a bizarre resemblance to an extreme form of Soviet-style centralization...only in this scheme THE WORKERS obviously don't own the means of production (nowadays it's actually become the "means of importation"), it is owned by these international billionaire capitalists that aren't really based in any single location.
Far from being independent, Americans are becoming more DEPENDENT with each passing day. Unless some rather drastic measures are taken rather soon and local economies can be partially restored, we will continue to fade in to this abyss of centralization, globalization, and SLAVERY.
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» RE: DISGUSTING
Posted by: RandomThoughts
» The KKK opposed chain stores too
Posted by: defrag
» & I just mean there's some irony to the Southernization
Posted by: defrag
» How right you are!
Posted by: ecofriendlynet
» Localism -- Hope for the Future
Posted by: Whitecliff
» No longer Capitalsim, but Slavery...
Posted by: Cathyc
» amen
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: DISGUSTING
Posted by: maideninusa
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Posted by: peacelf on Sep 26, 2007 6:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Which came first lower prices or lower wages?
I believe our economy is being purposefully reset to maximize profits. The consumer/worker has little to do with the transformation, except in how their wages can be slashed by smiley faced icons in order to achieve low, low costs and savings for producers/employers.
The passage of NAFTA, CAFTA and the opening what is called "free trade" internationally has been instrumental in forcing the new economy down our throats. Free trade has neutered unions and forced workers to seek bargains in the interest of maintaining a lifestyle that is commensurate with their falling wages. We had no choice in the matter.
Big ticket items of lasting value rise at rates higher than inflation. Besides house prices rising, Reich failed to mention the rising costs of higher education, so that this next generation will not be able to afford college or they will be up to their necks in student loans, thus making them indentured servants to student loan companies and employers they may not like.
Moreover, workers are more likely to spend their hard earned dollars on health care costs that are rising faster than Viagra sales. And, our current crop of presidential candidates' solution is to offer us more deregulated health insurance. Lower prices at Wal Mart do little to compensate workers for lower wages and big ticket costs.
Transportation costs are growing exponentially, and political leaders refuse to demand higher CAFE standards from automakers or improve public transportation. And, alternative energy is no where in the political discussion.
The growing gap between the rich and working people of america is nothing to lovingly wax poetic. This is not about microwave ovens and color TV's; it's about the disproportionate distribution of wealth and power, the weakening of our democracy and the earth destroying nihilism inherent in all of these radical economic changes that benefit the few.
Peace
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» RE: "And, flowers grew out of my arse..."
Posted by: RandomThoughts
» RE: "And, flowers grew out of my arse..."
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: Kucinich is only candidate that offers single payer health insurance
Posted by: demgirlmo
» RE: Kucinich is only candidate that offers single payer health insurance
Posted by: peacelf
» Higher education?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Higher education?
Posted by: peacelf
» Most people don't know how......of course they do not, they are not supposed to
Posted by: mdruss42
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Posted by: morningstar1972 on Sep 26, 2007 6:02 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I gave up that field, after spending damn near 20,000$ on school.
There's a middle class? how do I apply?
If you want to be REALISTIC try checking out the help wanted section of your local newspaper.
very few jobs have a salary attached unless you have gone to school in that specific field.
then, if you are lucky, you are middle class, selling oil or insurance or something ridiculous.
I wish people would just STOP BASHING WALMART as the cause to all their woes.
who cares if a Walmart employee bagman gets a pension or not.
you won't see it in your local grocery store either.
The audacity!
90% of my income is spent at Walmart! that is all I can afford!
make a big deal about wages, and I can't buy groceries or clothing for my family. so, this is fair?
do I care if "they" have benefits and a higher wage, when I do not? hell no!!!!
And, this is the common sense I see lacking. When I am one day driving around in my new lexus, I seriously doubt I will be shopping at Walmart, preferring a nicer place with better quality merchandise.
that is, if it ever happens.
furthermore, if Walmart ever becomes one of those "trendy stores" selling nicer things at higher prices, and I am in the same predicatament, I doubt I will shop at Walmart. For now, they are affordable, and have some great basic shirts on sale for about 3$ on sale.
since I make a whole whopping $6.75 an hour, at least half an hours worth of work will goto a new t-shirt, and not to the competitions 11$ shirt for the same thing.
that is just good shopping sense.
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» RE: Walmart IS an EEEEvil entity!
Posted by: fearn
» America, the Me generation? No really...
Posted by: Cathyc
» Generalizations R Us?
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Walmart IS an EEEEvil entity!
Posted by: quitecontrary
» Do I care if "they" have benefits and a higher wage, when I do not?
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Walmart an EEEEvil entity?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Why should poor people care?
Posted by: suprmark
» 90% of your income??!! We should be going after you!
Posted by: thelostsailor
» Dude, ...
Posted by: bobbyw
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Posted by: VannaLaRoche on Sep 26, 2007 6:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wal-Mart's prices aren't the lowest, period. You might save on one item, but you can pay up to thirty percent more for the same item than at places like Save A Lot, Walgreen's, Dollar General, Big Lots, Target, etc. Discount grocery stores are usually much cheaper than Wal-Mart. Health-and-beauty, office supplies, groceries, cleaning stuff--it's all at or above prices you see elsewhere. If it is cheaper, it's a matter of a few pennies.
I'm continually astounded that people still say, "You can probably get it really cheap at Wal-Mart" when it demonstrably isn't so.
You can get a printed t-shirt that will fall apart next season for only $12. Rejoice.
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» I wonder about this too
Posted by: defrag
» RE: The Big Lie
Posted by: rk_tech68fl
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Posted by: hagwind on Sep 26, 2007 6:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That experience woke me up to what I still believe is the fundamental problem with capitalism as practiced in this country: it only values things that can be measured in dollars and cents. Intellectually our customers valued the customer service and community resource our store provided, but since it didn't come with a price tag they had no easy way to measure it against the three bucks they were saving at XYZ, where the clerks knew little about the books they were selling. Over the years I've seen plenty of "you don't know what you've got till it's gone": towns and cities that cut deals with big retailers, seeing only Jobs! Lower taxes! Cheaper goods!, and realize belatedly that the neighborhood has been gutted, the jobs are menial, and the traffic is out of control. Yeah, the PC I bought in 1985 (the one with the humongous 10MB hard drive [g]) cost almost three times more than the one I bought last fall, but it also came with excellent documentation and the tech support was awesome. These days, if you can't find your own answers, you're probably shelling out a fair amount of money for how-to books and computer consultants.
This excerpt from Robert Reich's book doesn't address what may be the most important issue, though I'm sure his book does: What happens to democratic institutions when we only know how to value things that come with a price tag attached? A glance at the headlines should give you an idea. Political corruption is nothing new, of course, but it seems to me that influence peddling and outright bribery escalates when the free-marketeers are riding high -- and why not? It's the good ol' market at work. Why shouldn't votes and public offices go to the highest bidder? And why shouldn't a conscientious company invest big bucks to ensure that an important vote goes its way?
The fix lies in regulating the market in such a way that it values the intangibles. It can be done if there's a will to do it. The question is "Do we love our bargains more than we love democracy or community or justice?" It's not really a new question. Most of us who know the story think Esau was short-sighted (literally) when he traded his birthright for a mess of pottage. What would it take to convince us that we're doing the same damn thing?
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» We know the price
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
» RE: So how do we value what doesn't come with a price tag?
Posted by: ebishirl
» RE: So how do we value what doesn't come with a price tag?
Posted by: Drclaw
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Posted by: Roverton on Sep 26, 2007 6:53 AM
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Posted by: antiapathy on Sep 26, 2007 7:15 AM
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We're in a race to the bottom. As real wages decline and prices drop, where are we headed? When everything we consume is made by sweatshop slaves or robots in southeast asia, how will we make money? Will we all work for wal-mart or micky D? The real questions is, will American consumers and investors awake from their apathetic slumber in time to turn the ship around? Why is this country full of selfish zombies who are incapable of comprehending the consequences of their choices?
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» RE: Race to the Bottom
Posted by: Sushi
» we shouldn't be buying cheap merchandise from either walmart or downtown boutiques.
Posted by: antiapathy
» RE: we shouldn't be buying cheap merchandise from either walmart or downtown boutiques.
Posted by: Luther Blissett
» yeah, it's hard
Posted by: Coleman
» you're damn right it's hard
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: we shouldn't be buying cheap merchandise from either walmart or downtown boutiques.
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: we shouldn't be buying cheap merchandise from either walmart or downtown boutiques.
Posted by: quitecontrary
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Posted by: pdxstudent on Sep 26, 2007 7:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
*One commentator above makes the excellent point that Wal-Mart's tactics are not unique to it. Adding to that from still another comment, all the OTHER low-low price sellers are able to do what they do for more or less the same reasons as Wal-Mart. This extends to every facet of the market.
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» Yes, but they have to be willing to risk it
Posted by: Coleman
» RE: Yes, but they have to be willing to risk it
Posted by: hagwind
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 26, 2007 7:24 AM
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 26, 2007 7:24 AM
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Posted by: Suzon on Sep 26, 2007 8:12 AM
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We can make a better society, so why don't we? Has idealism gone out of fashion? Have we sold our birthright for a jar of pickles? Universal health care impossible? Lincoln said that without vision the people perish. It's literally true.
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» RE: happiness is not about STUFF but about human connections, hanging out with friends and family
Posted by: Hajoda
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Posted by: pdxstudent on Sep 26, 2007 8:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is something of a saying, a cliche really, among capitalists and their unwitting supporters: vote with your dollar. Our dollar you say! Of course, what that means is that our "say" is proportionate to our dollar. This is the only way that Localism comes into existence in the way you lay out: just buy something different.
AS IF WE HAD A CHOICE
This, ladies and gentlemen, is what is called a forced choice. It is the fundamental, bedrock lie of Capitalism. What it purports is that we have a choice on how to spend our dollar, on who we vote on economically. For too many, though, their choice is limited to, say, Wal-Mart and its big-box entourage. Already, in the comments to this article, people are responding with hostility towards Wal-Mart-basing, as it is the only thing they can afford! The choices are ENDLESS at your ONE and ONLY Wal-Mart. The imperative is to save money for some, but to get by for most others.
We should not think as relatively affluent middle-class and up, liberal-progressives, who read Alter-Net and buy the Red Label Gap-products that send money to starving kids in Africa (for God sake!), that we are really affecting social change by changing who we buy from, because the gesture is still the same---just in a different direction. We cannot forget that relative affluence is bought only at the price of many other's subserviance to low-paying jobs and products of profoundly diminishing real-value---i.e. piece of shit stuff from China. Were those two basic conditions to be atoned for, you would see the middle-upper and upper-class crash down into the real-life awakening of making a living.
No, social change, social revolution if that's your flavour of terminology, will not happen so nicely and within the scripted bounds of the present economic order. It will not only put a frown on Mr. Money-bags. It will upset people from every level of the economic chain of being, because their whole lives are invested in its fundamental lies. These lies, no less, are not simply put over their eyes to keep them from seeing the truth, in the old false-consciousness sense, but are lies that they live in the midst of, produce and embody with their every, minute daily ways of living.
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» Remember what Marx said...
Posted by: Coleman
» I RE:member what Marx said...
Posted by: pdxstudent
» Bold.
Posted by: Coleman
» Exactly!
Posted by: pdxstudent
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Posted by: drricklippin on Sep 26, 2007 8:55 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
To me its all cyclical.
But as a nation we are definitely consumeristic to a pathological degree.
Beyond basic needs (which I agree some of don't even have) IT'S RELATIONSHIPS AND MEANINGFUL WORK THAT COUNT (NOT THINGS). He who "dies with the most toys" is a cruel myth.
We will grow up someday and realize that before it is to late.
We are a young and immature nation. But our destiny still is greatness.
Be Well All,
Dr. Rick Lippin
http://medicalcrises.blogspot.com
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» RE: ICH IS CORRECT TO ASK ABOUT THE RIGHT BALANCE
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: REICH IS CORRECT TO ASK ABOUT THE RIGHT BALANCE
Posted by: hagwind
» RE:REICH IS CORRECT TO ASK ABOUT THE RIGHT BALANCE-THXS hagwind
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE:REICH IS CORRECT TO ASK ABOUT THE RIGHT BALANCE-EXCELLENT POST
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: ICH IS CORRECT TO ASK ABOUT THE RIGHT BALANCE-EXCELLENT POST
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE:REICH IS CORRECT TO ASK ABOUT THE RIGHT BALANCE-ELOQUENT Basenjis
Posted by: drricklippin
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Posted by: Whitecliff on Sep 26, 2007 8:58 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
* But historic tradition is, so to speak, of yesterday; nowhere have we really overcome what Thorstein Veblen called "the predatory phase" of human development. … Since the real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development, economic science in its present state can throw little light on the socialist society of the future.
* Man is, at one and the same time, a solitary being and a social being. As a solitary being, he attempts to protect his own existence and that of those who are closest to him, to satisfy his personal desires, and to develop his innate abilities. As a social being, he seeks to gain the recognition and affection of his fellow human beings, to share in their pleasures, to comfort them in their sorrows, and to improve their conditions of life. … It is evident, therefore, that the dependence of the individual upon society is a fact of nature which cannot be abolished—just as in the case of ants and bees.
* I have now reached the point where I may indicate briefly what to me constitutes the essence of the crisis of our time. It concerns the relationship of the individual to society. The individual has become more conscious than ever of his dependence upon society. But he does not experience this dependence as a positive asset, as an organic tie, as a protective force, but rather as a threat to his natural rights, or even to his economic existence. … Moreover, his position in society is such that the egotistical drives of his make-up are constantly being accentuated, while his social drives, which are by nature weaker, progressively deteriorate. All human beings, whatever their position in society, are suffering from this process of deterioration. Unknowingly prisoners of their own egotism, they feel insecure, lonely, and deprived of the naive, simple, and unsophisticated enjoyment of life. Man can find meaning in life, short and perilous as it is, only through devoting himself to society.
* The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. … Private capital tends to become concentrated in few hands, partly because of competition among the capitalists, and partly because technological development and the increasing division of labor encourage the formation of larger units of production at the expense of smaller ones. The result of these developments is an oligarchy of private capital the enormous power of which cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society.
(continued below)
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» Why Socialism? (cont.)
Posted by: Whitecliff
» Just Make Sure
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Just Make Sure
Posted by: logansafi
» RE: Just Make Sure
Posted by: pdxstudent
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Posted by: vomeggido on Sep 26, 2007 9:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These entities started out well before WalMart and their Bulk Buy hook worked because they would buy the over-stock from other stores and sell it for less. It was a terrific scam and not difficult to put over on the public. WalMart got smarter and it took it many steps further.
See, you get 4 bottles of scope for the price of 3- in order to get a discount- the public became over-stocked- basically Joe and Jane average became mini-warehouses.
The public caught on and people, family, neighbors and friends would shop together, split savings and products.
The monsters quickly caught on and the vast majority of items became 2 for 1's greatly reducing the deals. The deals rapidly became smaller- but there was just enough bulk items to keep the peeps lined up at the doors.
Now these stores (actually warehouses) were located at the far end of town where land was cheaper and they needed lots of space- there was nothing nefarious in this choice until WalMart. People did not realize or take into account the gasoline, time and energy it took to drive out to WalMart and when they realized "ALL THIS" was out there- they began moving closer without thinking. The masses did not see the people traps disguised as stores. The sheeple are easily led and herded to the shepherds destination- not the sheeple's.
There is something far more sinister about all of this than finding a deal. This has much more to do with behavior modification than great discounts. People with very specific income brackets and demographics are being brought together by a motive that has little or nothing to do with retail sales. The designer outlets work the same way- lead the people out of town- then limit their choices to a few stores.
This fact escapes nearly everyone and a little research into this evil entity, its nefarious ways and much can be gained by reading the biographies of its corporate players- a deeper look back into the histories of its corporate players yields the results and information that would keep shoppers in the Mom and Pop stores forever, rendering the parking lots of these megalomaniac malls empty forever.
Sadly, most people will not- cannot or are too lazy to surf and sift out the available information so they can make an intelligent choice as to where to spend their hard earned money.
Is it any wonder why the elite think so little of the masses?
Albert Einstein said, "Religion keeps the poor from killing the rich- which is its only purpose".
Little effort into research will show that within 1 mile of every WalMart is a church, sometimes right across the street- but never more than a mile.
Is this a coincidence that occurs with every WalMart store?
I don't think so. Its another fact cleverly hidden under a pile of discount coupons.
Follow the breadcrumbs people or you may just end up in the witch's oven like Hansel & Gretel.
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» RE: WALFART- A big explosion of gas!
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: WALFART- A big explosion of gas!
Posted by: VZEQICVA
Comments are closed-
Posted by: SteveO on Sep 26, 2007 9:28 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dr Reich, like so many other cheerleaders of the present US economy, tells us how well we are doing, but does not mention that personal debt is at record levels and more and more hours are being spent at work just to maintain a lifestyle.
It is obvious to me that he and the other "ivory tower" academics that spout this drivel don't have to work to earn a living. For instance, Dr Reich has an extensive resume of institutes, of higher learning he has "worked" for, but he has never had to punch a clock or run a cash register or flip burgers to earn a living. He has probably never been without healthcare or for that matter "laid off" from a job because the company moved to China.
I think all economists jobs should be outsourced to India so these folks will have to get in touch with the real economy.
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» RE: More crap from the ivory tower.
Posted by: logansafi
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Sep 26, 2007 9:58 AM
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The real magazine of the new movement for global sanity is Adbusters. I recommend that everyone reads it! For example, see http://adbusters.org/metas/eco/bnd//
November 24 & 25, every year: Participate by Not Participating!
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» Buy Nothing YEAR
Posted by: bigbad
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Posted by: charleschear on Sep 26, 2007 9:58 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There certainly isn't a shortage of used items: used clothes from the U.S. is sold in developing countries around the world and (what we as Americans believe to be) totaled cars in the U.S. are sold in countries like Cambodia where they're rebuilt.
You can have great items at bargain prices as long as you aren't picky and don't feel it necessary to have brand new things.
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» RE: creating a culture comfortable with used items
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» I've posted a link to Freecycle further down...
Posted by: jparsons
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Posted by: Constitutionalist75 on Sep 26, 2007 10:26 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
A far more secure investment is in the land for families to grow their own gardens, sew their own clothes, maintain their own housing and live in balance with Nature and at peace with each other. They won't be rich, but they'll never be jobless, homeless and starving! Observe and study the Amish.
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Posted by: wleming on Sep 26, 2007 10:47 AM
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is essentially greed and self interest.. period.
Advertisers marketing cigarettes to young people also market
the health care plans that hope to contol the cancer contracted
by the "consumer" who saw the same advertiser help him/her
contract the disease thru cigarette addiction.
Advertisers, marketeers, and P.R. people are not adverse to promoting split personalities and that includes of course, their own well paid persons. See the tobacco spokespersons for more on this.
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 26, 2007 11:07 AM
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» RE: CURIOUS ABOUT THE NUMERS
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: CURIOUS ABOUT THE NUMERS
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: CURIOUS ABOUT THE NUMERS
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
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Posted by: MAD on Sep 26, 2007 11:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Alternet rarely, if ever, has the balls to run articles that suggest WE ARE TO BLAME and not the seemingly impregnable, monolithic institutions that have sprung up around us. It's so tiresome, not to mention boring, when we are bombarded with articles that point the finger at Greenspan (as if he put a gun to your head and made you borrow), Wal-Mart (hate how they pay but love the prices don't ya?) or any number of corporations (you abhor big oil and Detroit but you drive a Toyota Tundra).
No entity or practice simply springs up out of nowhere without the American public's complicity. You've elected these idiots time and again and settle into your La-Z-Boy, mumbling under your breath when things don't go your way. You have run up extraordinary credit card debt on things you had no business buying.
You fail to act. You harp on Bush, Cheney, Gonzalez, Rumsfeld - calling them cowards, morons . . . what have you, but they're acting, albeit in an evil and malicious way, but they're doing, not talking. Republicans have managed to get a stranglehold on this country and you allowed them to do so. You let the Dems get away with their filth. You're the cowards. You have no one to blame but yourselves.
I know this article defies the official "it's was them, we're innocent" mantra that Alterneters truly get off on, but one day, you're going to have to snap out of your pity party and actually do something.
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» The thing to do
Posted by: bluebirdella
» RE: The thing to do
Posted by: Trazom
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Posted by: Constitutionalist75 on Sep 26, 2007 12:17 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: maxpayne on Sep 26, 2007 12:26 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And not to worry, the Senate and WH will follow shortly !
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» RE: In the meantime, the BIGGEST CONSUMER just turned out to be Congress and WH !
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» NOT TO WORRY!
Posted by: mdruss42
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Posted by: wireup on Sep 26, 2007 2:22 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, Bob, we ALL love low prices. Who DOESN'T want them?But NOT at the expense of my principles. Like every other large American corporation Walmart is NO LONGER American. It is global and it doesn't give a damn where it gets its merchandise as long as it is as cheap as possible. And why is it cheap? Because the workers - whether in China or Asia - are paid virtually nothing, certainly not a living wage. Meanwhile, American jobs are being exported overseas.
It's interesting to note that Henry Ford - anti-Semite that he was - recognized that if he did not pay his workers a decent salary, they would be unable to buy his cars.
Wouldn't you thiink that today's CEOs would have at least a smidgen of the same intelligence. Who will be left to buy the products sold by cheap-o Walmart if they're not paid decently? Already, recently in the news, Walmart and (I think) Home Depot were complaining that in some towns here in America people didn't have enough money to shop in their stores.
And let us not forget how Walmart treats women employees - the sexism, gender bias.
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» RE: Apologist for Walmart?
Posted by: Trazom
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Posted by: bluebirdella on Sep 26, 2007 5:56 PM
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Posted by: eosrk on Sep 26, 2007 6:52 PM
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Posted by: bigbad on Sep 26, 2007 7:43 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Uh Robert...
Nobody but the fat cats get pensions anymore. Most people have almost no money in their 401ks. The rich benefit from the market in ways the rest of us can't access. The Dow is only up 30% in 7 years!
Our health care system is worse than in all those "socialist countries", we die younger and living less healthily, while paying far more.
Lower costs come from improved technology, and exploited foreign workers, not really talented capitalists. They mostly focus on how to suck every last drop of work out of us.
After all, the whole point of capitalism is for the rich (the ones with the capital) to get richer, by coercing the rest of us (the ones without capital) to hand them all the wealth we generate. We just hope they give us enough of it back to live day to day.
All that other "analysis" is bullsh*t.
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Posted by: drblack on Sep 26, 2007 8:05 PM
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Posted by: drblack on Sep 26, 2007 8:07 PM
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» RE: BUY AMERICAN
Posted by: Trazom
» Buying Imports today usually IS Buying American. The trouble is it isn't making American jobs!!
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Sep 27, 2007 6:24 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The issues discussed in this article provide a good counterpoint to this tiresome chant from the right. While people will, from time to time, act against what they perceive to be their own immediate self-interest, it is probably too much to expect that people will do so on a frequent and widespread basis. Individually and on occasion, we may decide to travel a few extra miles and pay a few extra dollars to try to make a purchase from a small shop that we would like to see survive, but it is battling human nature to expect this to happen frequently enough to drive Walmart into receivership.
What is missing cannot and will not be met simply by persuading individuals to act in their long-term interests. Government must play a role.
Government can insist on minimum wages and benefits or it can ensure workers have the right to organize. Government can break up monopolies when they become oppressive to the peoples interests and they can limit the growth of hereditary dynasties through inheritance taxes.
It is the proper role of government to act as a counterweight to bloated corporate interests. It is the proper role of government to act rationally in the interests of the people at large. It is time for this government to live up to its constitutional role to promote the general Welfare.
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» RE: Government vs. Corporations
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: Government vs. Corporations
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
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Posted by: vomeggido on Sep 27, 2007 6:56 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We have gotten fat and greedy as consumers because we were led into this. They will lead us only deeper into this bullshit.
We can only walk away by refusing their lead.
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» I agree about the mom and pop stores but why do you refer to "government shopping?"
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Sep 27, 2007 7:58 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Take the walmart propaganda for example. We do NOT save money at walmart. All it is is an elaborate scheme to transfer wealth from the middle class to whoever owns their stock or happens to be in upper management anywhere in their supply chain. He says Walmart has saved people $100 billion. Baloney. The use of such rediculously rigged numbers is a clear sign of propaganda. It's like when the neocons talk about the iraq war costing only a few hundred billion. Yeah well if you do the math you realize that it has costed us over 30 billion dollars for every single dollar increase in the price of a barrel of oil. So take your pick. How much did the iraq war increase the price of a barrel of oil?? 5 dollars? ching. 10 dollars? cha-ching. 20 dollars?? Do you really even want to know? Now the same applies to walmart. How much has their "new paradigm of globalization" caused the price of oil to increase? Even just 1 dollar a barrel wipes out any imagined savings. You're a fool if you think it's less than 5 dollars a barrel, currently. Nothing is local anymore. Everything is globalized. From a paper plate to a ping pong ball, it seems like everything is shipped around the world. It's costing us, bigtime, and those costs are gonna keep going up until they no longer can be ignored by phoney damage-control hacks like Reich who love to ignore the elephants in the room.
And it's not just oil either. Look how many jobs walmart alone has killed. I'm talking about good jobs. Jobs that add value to property. Jobs that create other jobs. Jobs that dont contribute toward this awful homogenization of our culture. (The value of that cannot even be calculated.) Every time a good job is killed and replaced with a "walmart job", it eats into these imagined "savings" people think they're getting at walmart. I refuse to believe that people are so selfish that they'd willfully steal money from their own neighbors. Yet that's what we're doing. That's the whole basis for this twisted form of globalization. It can only end two ways. Either we wise up and stop doing it, or we keep doing it till everyone has nothing and we end up as slaves. We're not saving any money. Those that think they're profiting from this... you're not nearly as much as you think you are. And worst of all it is totally wrecking our culture and creating a spiritual void so large that we might become so soulless as to not even care about being slaves. For what? Just to make the rich richer. That's just wonderful.
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» Reich tried to criticize Walmart for concentrating the global economy and creating inequality.
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: jparsons on Sep 27, 2007 2:38 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
good secondhand. There's plenty around, especially if you
have access to the Internet.
Support your neighbor, not your WalMart.
Even better, there's Freecycle
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Posted by: vzn on Sep 27, 2007 7:05 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
supercapitalism== crony capitalism?
supercapitalism== disaster capitalism?
supercapitalism== economic warfare?
all the gory details in this free electronic paper,
"fractional reserve banking as economic parasitism"
endorsed by two phd economists. printed in nexus
magazine, 60k world circulation. #1 top downloaded
economics paper. used by economics
teacher in australia as standard classroom material.
more info on request.
recent supporting material:
The Shock Doctrine: Naomi Klein on the Rise of Disaster Capitalism
Confessions of an Economic Hit Man: How the U.S. Uses Globalization to Cheat Poor Countries Out of Trillions
John Perkins on "The Secret History of the American Empire: Economic Hit Men, Jackals, and the Truth about Global Corruption"
Video, senator/pres candidate Dennis Kucinich at last years 2005 Monetary Reform Conference
money as debt video by Grignon
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Posted by: Joe on Sep 28, 2007 10:14 PM
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Posted by: talkville on Sep 29, 2007 3:57 AM
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Posted by: drew on Sep 26, 2007 2:59 AM
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Posted by: wushih on Sep 26, 2007 4:45 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Reich also fails to mention that many have been deceived by the public relations efforts of stores like Walmart, which has done an excellent job portraying itself as an inherently American company that is part of the American community.
It isn't a choice to shop at Walmart as much as it is a necessity or simply not thought about.
Reich also fails to discuss the resistance to Walmart. There are plenty of consumers who refuse to shop there. There are plenty of consumers who start campaigns to keep Walmart out of their communities.
The problem isn't consumer choice; it's hegemony, and right now, Walmart represents it. Walmart is a naturalized part of the capitalist economy. For many, it is not a choice, but part of an unconscious acceptance that it is perfectly natural to shop at Walmart. Reich is stuck in an elitist, Enlightenment grand narrative about free will and independent choice.
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» RE: Misses the point
Posted by: ecofriendlynet
» Not a Free Market
Posted by: socialpsych
» BOYCOTT!
Posted by: Cathyc
» Consider the dynamic
Posted by: Ignatz deFyre
» Misses the point? Sure, if you didn't read past the first page.
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Misses the point? Sure, if you believe only act according to rational self-interest
Posted by: wushih
» RE: Misses the point? Sure, if you believe only act according to rational self-interest
Posted by: Ignatz deFyre
» Rational self interest is only part of the story
Posted by: Drclaw
» RE: rational self interest is only part of the story
Posted by: Ignatz deFyre
» Who's talking about "rational" self-interest?
Posted by: hagwind
» Psychological Rape
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Misses the point
Posted by: MobileSucks
» RE: Misses the point
Posted by: Cathyc
» Trampling on the human rights of American people too!
Posted by: Cathyc
» Hegemony & Monopoly
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: BlackbirdHighway on Sep 26, 2007 5:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
People there are not so much focused exclusively on money as in the US. They value main street with it's little shops, even if it is much more expensive to shop there. They also don't seek status through rich possesions as much as Americans, and leisure, lifestyle, and environmental quality issues are generally considered more important than working long hours to make lots of money.
I'm not sure if these attitudes are why they have such a strong social safety net, with strong health care, retirement, and worker protections, or if the safety net is what fosters the attitudes. Maybe they both simply go hand in hand.
When most Americans visit these places at first they are shocked that the values and attitudes are so different. But after spending some time there, you start to think that maybe Americans need to consider changes to their own attitudes.
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» RE: People need to get outside the US more
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: People need to get outside the US more
Posted by: AussieGeoff
» RE: People need to get outside the US more
Posted by: MAD
» Tidal Wave
Posted by: suprmark
» RE: People need to get outside the US more
Posted by: AussieGeoff
» RE: People need to get outside the US more
Posted by: somegirl
» DRIVE DOWN A SUBURBAN STREET ON SATURDAY AND LOOK INTO OPEN GARAGES
Posted by: mdruss42
» RE: DRIVE DOWN A SUBURBAN STREET ON SATURDAY AND LOOK INTO OPEN GARAGES
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: People need to get outside the US more
Posted by: MAD
» Of course the rest of the world will do a "monkey see, monkey do" since the same
Posted by: mdruss42
» Insular America
Posted by: Cathyc
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Whitecliff on Sep 26, 2007 5:59 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do some research and you will find that even the goddamned fascists of the 1920s-30s-40s were EXTREMELY protective of local/regional economies and their native industries, bucking the trend of Soviet style globalization/centralization that was beginning to occur at that time.
So yes, while we Americans continue to feed and feed and feed at the disgusting trough of 'globalization' local economies continue to be wiped out and America's citizens are made more and more HOPELESSLY AND UTTERLY DEPENDENT on international corporations run by money hungry CEOs and number-crunching computers to meet their daily survival needs. This is no longer CAPITALISM because there is no longer any possible competition except at the most minor of levels -- we are living under some freakish form of international crony billionairism with a bizarre resemblance to an extreme form of Soviet-style centralization...only in this scheme THE WORKERS obviously don't own the means of production (nowadays it's actually become the "means of importation"), it is owned by these international billionaire capitalists that aren't really based in any single location.
Far from being independent, Americans are becoming more DEPENDENT with each passing day. Unless some rather drastic measures are taken rather soon and local economies can be partially restored, we will continue to fade in to this abyss of centralization, globalization, and SLAVERY.
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» RE: DISGUSTING
Posted by: RandomThoughts
» The KKK opposed chain stores too
Posted by: defrag
» & I just mean there's some irony to the Southernization
Posted by: defrag
» How right you are!
Posted by: ecofriendlynet
» Localism -- Hope for the Future
Posted by: Whitecliff
» No longer Capitalsim, but Slavery...
Posted by: Cathyc
» amen
Posted by: Iconoclast421
» RE: DISGUSTING
Posted by: maideninusa
Comments are closed-
Posted by: peacelf on Sep 26, 2007 6:00 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Which came first lower prices or lower wages?
I believe our economy is being purposefully reset to maximize profits. The consumer/worker has little to do with the transformation, except in how their wages can be slashed by smiley faced icons in order to achieve low, low costs and savings for producers/employers.
The passage of NAFTA, CAFTA and the opening what is called "free trade" internationally has been instrumental in forcing the new economy down our throats. Free trade has neutered unions and forced workers to seek bargains in the interest of maintaining a lifestyle that is commensurate with their falling wages. We had no choice in the matter.
Big ticket items of lasting value rise at rates higher than inflation. Besides house prices rising, Reich failed to mention the rising costs of higher education, so that this next generation will not be able to afford college or they will be up to their necks in student loans, thus making them indentured servants to student loan companies and employers they may not like.
Moreover, workers are more likely to spend their hard earned dollars on health care costs that are rising faster than Viagra sales. And, our current crop of presidential candidates' solution is to offer us more deregulated health insurance. Lower prices at Wal Mart do little to compensate workers for lower wages and big ticket costs.
Transportation costs are growing exponentially, and political leaders refuse to demand higher CAFE standards from automakers or improve public transportation. And, alternative energy is no where in the political discussion.
The growing gap between the rich and working people of america is nothing to lovingly wax poetic. This is not about microwave ovens and color TV's; it's about the disproportionate distribution of wealth and power, the weakening of our democracy and the earth destroying nihilism inherent in all of these radical economic changes that benefit the few.
Peace
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» RE: "And, flowers grew out of my arse..."
Posted by: RandomThoughts
» RE: "And, flowers grew out of my arse..."
Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: Kucinich is only candidate that offers single payer health insurance
Posted by: demgirlmo
» RE: Kucinich is only candidate that offers single payer health insurance
Posted by: peacelf
» Higher education?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Higher education?
Posted by: peacelf
» Most people don't know how......of course they do not, they are not supposed to
Posted by: mdruss42
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Posted by: morningstar1972 on Sep 26, 2007 6:02 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I gave up that field, after spending damn near 20,000$ on school.
There's a middle class? how do I apply?
If you want to be REALISTIC try checking out the help wanted section of your local newspaper.
very few jobs have a salary attached unless you have gone to school in that specific field.
then, if you are lucky, you are middle class, selling oil or insurance or something ridiculous.
I wish people would just STOP BASHING WALMART as the cause to all their woes.
who cares if a Walmart employee bagman gets a pension or not.
you won't see it in your local grocery store either.
The audacity!
90% of my income is spent at Walmart! that is all I can afford!
make a big deal about wages, and I can't buy groceries or clothing for my family. so, this is fair?
do I care if "they" have benefits and a higher wage, when I do not? hell no!!!!
And, this is the common sense I see lacking. When I am one day driving around in my new lexus, I seriously doubt I will be shopping at Walmart, preferring a nicer place with better quality merchandise.
that is, if it ever happens.
furthermore, if Walmart ever becomes one of those "trendy stores" selling nicer things at higher prices, and I am in the same predicatament, I doubt I will shop at Walmart. For now, they are affordable, and have some great basic shirts on sale for about 3$ on sale.
since I make a whole whopping $6.75 an hour, at least half an hours worth of work will goto a new t-shirt, and not to the competitions 11$ shirt for the same thing.
that is just good shopping sense.
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» RE: Walmart IS an EEEEvil entity!
Posted by: fearn
» America, the Me generation? No really...
Posted by: Cathyc
» Generalizations R Us?
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Walmart IS an EEEEvil entity!
Posted by: quitecontrary
» Do I care if "they" have benefits and a higher wage, when I do not?
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Walmart an EEEEvil entity?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» Why should poor people care?
Posted by: suprmark
» 90% of your income??!! We should be going after you!
Posted by: thelostsailor
» Dude, ...
Posted by: bobbyw
Comments are closed-
Posted by: VannaLaRoche on Sep 26, 2007 6:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Wal-Mart's prices aren't the lowest, period. You might save on one item, but you can pay up to thirty percent more for the same item than at places like Save A Lot, Walgreen's, Dollar General, Big Lots, Target, etc. Discount grocery stores are usually much cheaper than Wal-Mart. Health-and-beauty, office supplies, groceries, cleaning stuff--it's all at or above prices you see elsewhere. If it is cheaper, it's a matter of a few pennies.
I'm continually astounded that people still say, "You can probably get it really cheap at Wal-Mart" when it demonstrably isn't so.
You can get a printed t-shirt that will fall apart next season for only $12. Rejoice.
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» I wonder about this too
Posted by: defrag
» RE: The Big Lie
Posted by: rk_tech68fl
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Posted by: hagwind on Sep 26, 2007 6:09 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That experience woke me up to what I still believe is the fundamental problem with capitalism as practiced in this country: it only values things that can be measured in dollars and cents. Intellectually our customers valued the customer service and community resource our store provided, but since it didn't come with a price tag they had no easy way to measure it against the three bucks they were saving at XYZ, where the clerks knew little about the books they were selling. Over the years I've seen plenty of "you don't know what you've got till it's gone": towns and cities that cut deals with big retailers, seeing only Jobs! Lower taxes! Cheaper goods!, and realize belatedly that the neighborhood has been gutted, the jobs are menial, and the traffic is out of control. Yeah, the PC I bought in 1985 (the one with the humongous 10MB hard drive [g]) cost almost three times more than the one I bought last fall, but it also came with excellent documentation and the tech support was awesome. These days, if you can't find your own answers, you're probably shelling out a fair amount of money for how-to books and computer consultants.
This excerpt from Robert Reich's book doesn't address what may be the most important issue, though I'm sure his book does: What happens to democratic institutions when we only know how to value things that come with a price tag attached? A glance at the headlines should give you an idea. Political corruption is nothing new, of course, but it seems to me that influence peddling and outright bribery escalates when the free-marketeers are riding high -- and why not? It's the good ol' market at work. Why shouldn't votes and public offices go to the highest bidder? And why shouldn't a conscientious company invest big bucks to ensure that an important vote goes its way?
The fix lies in regulating the market in such a way that it values the intangibles. It can be done if there's a will to do it. The question is "Do we love our bargains more than we love democracy or community or justice?" It's not really a new question. Most of us who know the story think Esau was short-sighted (literally) when he traded his birthright for a mess of pottage. What would it take to convince us that we're doing the same damn thing?
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» We know the price
Posted by: orwellwasn'tdreaming
» RE: So how do we value what doesn't come with a price tag?
Posted by: ebishirl
» RE: So how do we value what doesn't come with a price tag?
Posted by: Drclaw
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Posted by: Roverton on Sep 26, 2007 6:53 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: antiapathy on Sep 26, 2007 7:15 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
We're in a race to the bottom. As real wages decline and prices drop, where are we headed? When everything we consume is made by sweatshop slaves or robots in southeast asia, how will we make money? Will we all work for wal-mart or micky D? The real questions is, will American consumers and investors awake from their apathetic slumber in time to turn the ship around? Why is this country full of selfish zombies who are incapable of comprehending the consequences of their choices?
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» RE: Race to the Bottom
Posted by: Sushi
» we shouldn't be buying cheap merchandise from either walmart or downtown boutiques.
Posted by: antiapathy
» RE: we shouldn't be buying cheap merchandise from either walmart or downtown boutiques.
Posted by: Luther Blissett
» yeah, it's hard
Posted by: Coleman
» you're damn right it's hard
Posted by: hagwind
» RE: we shouldn't be buying cheap merchandise from either walmart or downtown boutiques.
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: we shouldn't be buying cheap merchandise from either walmart or downtown boutiques.
Posted by: quitecontrary
Comments are closed-
Posted by: pdxstudent on Sep 26, 2007 7:21 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
*One commentator above makes the excellent point that Wal-Mart's tactics are not unique to it. Adding to that from still another comment, all the OTHER low-low price sellers are able to do what they do for more or less the same reasons as Wal-Mart. This extends to every facet of the market.
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» Yes, but they have to be willing to risk it
Posted by: Coleman
» RE: Yes, but they have to be willing to risk it
Posted by: hagwind
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 26, 2007 7:24 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 26, 2007 7:24 AM
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Posted by: Suzon on Sep 26, 2007 8:12 AM
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We can make a better society, so why don't we? Has idealism gone out of fashion? Have we sold our birthright for a jar of pickles? Universal health care impossible? Lincoln said that without vision the people perish. It's literally true.
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» RE: happiness is not about STUFF but about human connections, hanging out with friends and family
Posted by: Hajoda
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Posted by: pdxstudent on Sep 26, 2007 8:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is something of a saying, a cliche really, among capitalists and their unwitting supporters: vote with your dollar. Our dollar you say! Of course, what that means is that our "say" is proportionate to our dollar. This is the only way that Localism comes into existence in the way you lay out: just buy something different.
AS IF WE HAD A CHOICE
This, ladies and gentlemen, is what is called a forced choice. It is the fundamental, bedrock lie of Capitalism. What it purports is that we have a choice on how to spend our dollar, on who we vote on economically. For too many, though, their choice is limited to, say, Wal-Mart and its big-box entourage. Already, in the comments to this article, people are responding with hostility towards Wal-Mart-basing, as it is the only thing they can afford! The choices are ENDLESS at your ONE and ONLY Wal-Mart. The imperative is to save money for some, but to get by for most others.
We should not think as relatively affluent middle-class and up, liberal-progressives, who read Alter-Net and buy the Red Label Gap-products that send money to starving kids in Africa (for God sake!), that we are really affecting social change by changing who we buy from, because the gesture is still the same---just in a different direction. We cannot forget that relative affluence is bought only at the price of many other's subserviance to low-paying jobs and products of profoundly diminishing real-value---i.e. piece of shit stuff from China. Were those two basic conditions to be atoned for, you would see the middle-upper and upper-class crash down into the real-life awakening of making a living.
No, social change, social revolution if that's your flavour of terminology, will not happen so nicely and within the scripted bounds of the present economic order. It will not only put a frown on Mr. Money-bags. It will upset people from every level of the economic chain of being, because their whole lives are invested in its fundamental lies. These lies, no less, are not simply put over their eyes to keep them from seeing the truth, in the old false-consciousness sense, but are lies that they live in the midst of, produce and embody with their every, minute daily ways of living.
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» Remember what Marx said...
Posted by: Coleman
» I RE:member what Marx said...
Posted by: pdxstudent
» Bold.
Posted by: Coleman
» Exactly!
Posted by: pdxstudent
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Posted by: drricklippin on Sep 26, 2007 8:55 AM
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To me its all cyclical.
But as a nation we are definitely consumeristic to a pathological degree.
Beyond basic needs (which I agree some of don't even have) IT'S RELATIONSHIPS AND MEANINGFUL WORK THAT COUNT (NOT THINGS). He who "dies with the most toys" is a cruel myth.
We will grow up someday and realize that before it is to late.
We are a young and immature nation. But our destiny still is greatness.
Be Well All,
Dr. Rick Lippin
http://medicalcrises.blogspot.com
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» RE: ICH IS CORRECT TO ASK ABOUT THE RIGHT BALANCE
Posted by: Sushi
» RE: REICH IS CORRECT TO ASK ABOUT THE RIGHT BALANCE
Posted by: hagwind
» RE:REICH IS CORRECT TO ASK ABOUT THE RIGHT BALANCE-THXS hagwind
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE:REICH IS CORRECT TO ASK ABOUT THE RIGHT BALANCE-EXCELLENT POST
Posted by: drricklippin
» RE: ICH IS CORRECT TO ASK ABOUT THE RIGHT BALANCE-EXCELLENT POST
Posted by: Basenjis
» RE:REICH IS CORRECT TO ASK ABOUT THE RIGHT BALANCE-ELOQUENT Basenjis
Posted by: drricklippin
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Posted by: Whitecliff on Sep 26, 2007 8:58 AM
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* But historic tradition is, so to speak, of yesterday; nowhere have we really overcome what Thorstein Veblen called "the predatory phase" of human development. … Since the real purpose of socialism is precisely to overcome and advance beyond the predatory phase of human development, economic science in its present state can throw little light on the socialist society of the future.
* Man is, at one and the same time, a solitary being and a social being. As a solitary being, he attempts to protect his own existence and that of those who are closest to him, to satisfy his personal desires, and to develop his innate abilities. As a social being, he seeks to gain the recognition and affection of his fellow human beings, to share in their pleasures, to comfort them in their sorrows, and to improve their conditions of life. … It is evident, therefore, that the dependence of the individual upon society is a fact of nature which cannot be abolished—just as in the case of ants and bees.
* I have now reached the point where I may indicate briefly what to me constitutes the essence of the crisis of our time. It concerns the relationship of the individual to society. The individual has become more conscious than ever of his dependence upon society. But he does not experience this dependence as a positive asset, as an organic tie, as a protective force, but rather as a threat to his natural rights, or even to his economic existence. … Moreover, his position in society is such that the egotistical drives of his make-up are constantly being accentuated, while his social drives, which are by nature weaker, progressively deteriorate. All human beings, whatever their position in society, are suffering from this process of deterioration. Unknowingly prisoners of their own egotism, they feel insecure, lonely, and deprived of the naive, simple, and unsophisticated enjoyment of life. Man can find meaning in life, short and perilous as it is, only through devoting himself to society.
* The economic anarchy of capitalist society as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of the evil. … Private capital tends to become concentrated in few hands, partly because of competition among the capitalists, and partly because technological development and the increasing division of labor encourage the formation of larger units of production at the expense of smaller ones. The result of these developments is an oligarchy of private capital the enormous power of which cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society.
(continued below)
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» Why Socialism? (cont.)
Posted by: Whitecliff
» Just Make Sure
Posted by: pdxstudent
» RE: Just Make Sure
Posted by: logansafi
» RE: Just Make Sure
Posted by: pdxstudent
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Posted by: vomeggido on Sep 26, 2007 9:11 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
These entities started out well before WalMart and their Bulk Buy hook worked because they would buy the over-stock from other stores and sell it for less. It was a terrific scam and not difficult to put over on the public. WalMart got smarter and it took it many steps further.
See, you get 4 bottles of scope for the price of 3- in order to get a discount- the public became over-stocked- basically Joe and Jane average became mini-warehouses.
The public caught on and people, family, neighbors and friends would shop together, split savings and products.
The monsters quickly caught on and the vast majority of items became 2 for 1's greatly reducing the deals. The deals rapidly became smaller- but there was just enough bulk items to keep the peeps lined up at the doors.
Now these stores (actually warehouses) were located at the far end of town where land was cheaper and they needed lots of space- there was nothing nefarious in this choice until WalMart. People did not realize or take into account the gasoline, time and energy it took to drive out to WalMart and when they realized "ALL THIS" was out there- they began moving closer without thinking. The masses did not see the people traps disguised as stores. The sheeple are easily led and herded to the shepherds destination- not the sheeple's.
There is something far more sinister about all of this than finding a deal. This has much more to do with behavior modification than great discounts. People with very specific income brackets and demographics are being brought together by a motive that has little or nothing to do with retail sales. The designer outlets work the same way- lead the people out of town- then limit their choices to a few stores.
This fact escapes nearly everyone and a little research into this evil entity, its nefarious ways and much can be gained by reading the biographies of its corporate players- a deeper look back into the histories of its corporate players yields the results and information that would keep shoppers in the Mom and Pop stores forever, rendering the parking lots of these megalomaniac malls empty forever.
Sadly, most people will not- cannot or are too lazy to surf and sift out the available information so they can make an intelligent choice as to where to spend their hard earned money.
Is it any wonder why the elite think so little of the masses?
Albert Einstein said, "Religion keeps the poor from killing the rich- which is its only purpose".
Little effort into research will show that within 1 mile of every WalMart is a church, sometimes right across the street- but never more than a mile.
Is this a coincidence that occurs with every WalMart store?
I don't think so. Its another fact cleverly hidden under a pile of discount coupons.
Follow the breadcrumbs people or you may just end up in the witch's oven like Hansel & Gretel.
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» RE: WALFART- A big explosion of gas!
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: WALFART- A big explosion of gas!
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: SteveO on Sep 26, 2007 9:28 AM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Dr Reich, like so many other cheerleaders of the present US economy, tells us how well we are doing, but does not mention that personal debt is at record levels and more and more hours are being spent at work just to maintain a lifestyle.
It is obvious to me that he and the other "ivory tower" academics that spout this drivel don't have to work to earn a living. For instance, Dr Reich has an extensive resume of institutes, of higher learning he has "worked" for, but he has never had to punch a clock or run a cash register or flip burgers to earn a living. He has probably never been without healthcare or for that matter "laid off" from a job because the company moved to China.
I think all economists jobs should be outsourced to India so these folks will have to get in touch with the real economy.
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» RE: More crap from the ivory tower.
Posted by: logansafi
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Sep 26, 2007 9:58 AM
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The real magazine of the new movement for global sanity is Adbusters. I recommend that everyone reads it! For example, see http://adbusters.org/metas/eco/bnd//
November 24 & 25, every year: Participate by Not Participating!
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» Buy Nothing YEAR
Posted by: bigbad
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Posted by: charleschear on Sep 26, 2007 9:58 AM
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There certainly isn't a shortage of used items: used clothes from the U.S. is sold in developing countries around the world and (what we as Americans believe to be) totaled cars in the U.S. are sold in countries like Cambodia where they're rebuilt.
You can have great items at bargain prices as long as you aren't picky and don't feel it necessary to have brand new things.
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» RE: creating a culture comfortable with used items
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» I've posted a link to Freecycle further down...
Posted by: jparsons
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Posted by: Constitutionalist75 on Sep 26, 2007 10:26 AM
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A far more secure investment is in the land for families to grow their own gardens, sew their own clothes, maintain their own housing and live in balance with Nature and at peace with each other. They won't be rich, but they'll never be jobless, homeless and starving! Observe and study the Amish.
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Posted by: wleming on Sep 26, 2007 10:47 AM
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is essentially greed and self interest.. period.
Advertisers marketing cigarettes to young people also market
the health care plans that hope to contol the cancer contracted
by the "consumer" who saw the same advertiser help him/her
contract the disease thru cigarette addiction.
Advertisers, marketeers, and P.R. people are not adverse to promoting split personalities and that includes of course, their own well paid persons. See the tobacco spokespersons for more on this.
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Posted by: VZEQICVA on Sep 26, 2007 11:07 AM
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» RE: CURIOUS ABOUT THE NUMERS
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» RE: CURIOUS ABOUT THE NUMERS
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: CURIOUS ABOUT THE NUMERS
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
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Posted by: MAD on Sep 26, 2007 11:54 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Alternet rarely, if ever, has the balls to run articles that suggest WE ARE TO BLAME and not the seemingly impregnable, monolithic institutions that have sprung up around us. It's so tiresome, not to mention boring, when we are bombarded with articles that point the finger at Greenspan (as if he put a gun to your head and made you borrow), Wal-Mart (hate how they pay but love the prices don't ya?) or any number of corporations (you abhor big oil and Detroit but you drive a Toyota Tundra).
No entity or practice simply springs up out of nowhere without the American public's complicity. You've elected these idiots time and again and settle into your La-Z-Boy, mumbling under your breath when things don't go your way. You have run up extraordinary credit card debt on things you had no business buying.
You fail to act. You harp on Bush, Cheney, Gonzalez, Rumsfeld - calling them cowards, morons . . . what have you, but they're acting, albeit in an evil and malicious way, but they're doing, not talking. Republicans have managed to get a stranglehold on this country and you allowed them to do so. You let the Dems get away with their filth. You're the cowards. You have no one to blame but yourselves.
I know this article defies the official "it's was them, we're innocent" mantra that Alterneters truly get off on, but one day, you're going to have to snap out of your pity party and actually do something.
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» The thing to do
Posted by: bluebirdella
» RE: The thing to do
Posted by: Trazom
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Posted by: Constitutionalist75 on Sep 26, 2007 12:17 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: maxpayne on Sep 26, 2007 12:26 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And not to worry, the Senate and WH will follow shortly !
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» RE: In the meantime, the BIGGEST CONSUMER just turned out to be Congress and WH !
Posted by: Constitutionalist75
» NOT TO WORRY!
Posted by: mdruss42
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Posted by: wireup on Sep 26, 2007 2:22 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Yes, Bob, we ALL love low prices. Who DOESN'T want them?But NOT at the expense of my principles. Like every other large American corporation Walmart is NO LONGER American. It is global and it doesn't give a damn where it gets its merchandise as long as it is as cheap as possible. And why is it cheap? Because the workers - whether in China or Asia - are paid virtually nothing, certainly not a living wage. Meanwhile, American jobs are being exported overseas.
It's interesting to note that Henry Ford - anti-Semite that he was - recognized that if he did not pay his workers a decent salary, they would be unable to buy his cars.
Wouldn't you thiink that today's CEOs would have at least a smidgen of the same intelligence. Who will be left to buy the products sold by cheap-o Walmart if they're not paid decently? Already, recently in the news, Walmart and (I think) Home Depot were complaining that in some towns here in America people didn't have enough money to shop in their stores.
And let us not forget how Walmart treats women employees - the sexism, gender bias.
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» RE: Apologist for Walmart?
Posted by: Trazom
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Posted by: bluebirdella on Sep 26, 2007 5:56 PM
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Posted by: eosrk on Sep 26, 2007 6:52 PM
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Posted by: bigbad on Sep 26, 2007 7:43 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Uh Robert...
Nobody but the fat cats get pensions anymore. Most people have almost no money in their 401ks. The rich benefit from the market in ways the rest of us can't access. The Dow is only up 30% in 7 years!
Our health care system is worse than in all those "socialist countries", we die younger and living less healthily, while paying far more.
Lower costs come from improved technology, and exploited foreign workers, not really talented capitalists. They mostly focus on how to suck every last drop of work out of us.
After all, the whole point of capitalism is for the rich (the ones with the capital) to get richer, by coercing the rest of us (the ones without capital) to hand them all the wealth we generate. We just hope they give us enough of it back to live day to day.
All that other "analysis" is bullsh*t.
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Posted by: drblack on Sep 26, 2007 8:05 PM
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Posted by: drblack on Sep 26, 2007 8:07 PM
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» RE: BUY AMERICAN
Posted by: Trazom
» Buying Imports today usually IS Buying American. The trouble is it isn't making American jobs!!
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: ProgressiveManiac on Sep 27, 2007 6:24 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The issues discussed in this article provide a good counterpoint to this tiresome chant from the right. While people will, from time to time, act against what they perceive to be their own immediate self-interest, it is probably too much to expect that people will do so on a frequent and widespread basis. Individually and on occasion, we may decide to travel a few extra miles and pay a few extra dollars to try to make a purchase from a small shop that we would like to see survive, but it is battling human nature to expect this to happen frequently enough to drive Walmart into receivership.
What is missing cannot and will not be met simply by persuading individuals to act in their long-term interests. Government must play a role.
Government can insist on minimum wages and benefits or it can ensure workers have the right to organize. Government can break up monopolies when they become oppressive to the peoples interests and they can limit the growth of hereditary dynasties through inheritance taxes.
It is the proper role of government to act as a counterweight to bloated corporate interests. It is the proper role of government to act rationally in the interests of the people at large. It is time for this government to live up to its constitutional role to promote the general Welfare.
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» RE: Government vs. Corporations
Posted by: Trazom
» RE: Government vs. Corporations
Posted by: ProgressiveManiac
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Posted by: vomeggido on Sep 27, 2007 6:56 AM
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We have gotten fat and greedy as consumers because we were led into this. They will lead us only deeper into this bullshit.
We can only walk away by refusing their lead.
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» I agree about the mom and pop stores but why do you refer to "government shopping?"
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: Iconoclast421 on Sep 27, 2007 7:58 AM
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Take the walmart propaganda for example. We do NOT save money at walmart. All it is is an elaborate scheme to transfer wealth from the middle class to whoever owns their stock or happens to be in upper management anywhere in their supply chain. He says Walmart has saved people $100 billion. Baloney. The use of such rediculously rigged numbers is a clear sign of propaganda. It's like when the neocons talk about the iraq war costing only a few hundred billion. Yeah well if you do the math you realize that it has costed us over 30 billion dollars for every single dollar increase in the price of a barrel of oil. So take your pick. How much did the iraq war increase the price of a barrel of oil?? 5 dollars? ching. 10 dollars? cha-ching. 20 dollars?? Do you really even want to know? Now the same applies to walmart. How much has their "new paradigm of globalization" caused the price of oil to increase? Even just 1 dollar a barrel wipes out any imagined savings. You're a fool if you think it's less than 5 dollars a barrel, currently. Nothing is local anymore. Everything is globalized. From a paper plate to a ping pong ball, it seems like everything is shipped around the world. It's costing us, bigtime, and those costs are gonna keep going up until they no longer can be ignored by phoney damage-control hacks like Reich who love to ignore the elephants in the room.
And it's not just oil either. Look how many jobs walmart alone has killed. I'm talking about good jobs. Jobs that add value to property. Jobs that create other jobs. Jobs that dont contribute toward this awful homogenization of our culture. (The value of that cannot even be calculated.) Every time a good job is killed and replaced with a "walmart job", it eats into these imagined "savings" people think they're getting at walmart. I refuse to believe that people are so selfish that they'd willfully steal money from their own neighbors. Yet that's what we're doing. That's the whole basis for this twisted form of globalization. It can only end two ways. Either we wise up and stop doing it, or we keep doing it till everyone has nothing and we end up as slaves. We're not saving any money. Those that think they're profiting from this... you're not nearly as much as you think you are. And worst of all it is totally wrecking our culture and creating a spiritual void so large that we might become so soulless as to not even care about being slaves. For what? Just to make the rich richer. That's just wonderful.
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» Reich tried to criticize Walmart for concentrating the global economy and creating inequality.
Posted by: yellow
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Posted by: jparsons on Sep 27, 2007 2:38 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
good secondhand. There's plenty around, especially if you
have access to the Internet.
Support your neighbor, not your WalMart.
Even better, there's Freecycle
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Posted by: vzn on Sep 27, 2007 7:05 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
supercapitalism== crony capitalism?
supercapitalism== disaster capitalism?
supercapitalism== economic warfare?
all the gory details in this free electronic paper,
"fractional reserve banking as economic parasitism"
endorsed by two phd economists. printed in nexus
magazine, 60k world circulation. #1 top downloaded
economics paper. used by economics
teacher in australia as standard classroom material.
more info on request.
recent supporting material:
The Shock Doctrine: Naomi Klein on the Rise of Disaster Capitalism
Confessions of an Economic Hit Man: How the U.S. Uses Globalization to Cheat Poor Countries Out of Trillions
John Perkins on "The Secret History of the American Empire: Economic Hit Men, Jackals, and the Truth about Global Corruption"
Video, senator/pres candidate Dennis Kucinich at last years 2005 Monetary Reform Conference
money as debt video by Grignon
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Posted by: Joe on Sep 28, 2007 10:14 PM
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Posted by: talkville on Sep 29, 2007 3:57 AM
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