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Pornography and the End of Masculinity

By Don Hazen, AlterNet. Posted September 22, 2007.


Mainstream porn has come up with more ways than ever to humiliate and degrade women. Why then, is porn more popular? Includes an excerpt from Robert Jensen's new book, Getting Off.
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In his new book, Robert Jensen forces the reader to face the music about the effects of a porn industry gone gonzo and the need to reassess the trappings of masculinity as the source of increased violence against and degradation of women.

I have always been part of the collective liberal progressive libertarian value system that accepts pornography as a legitimate expression of the First Amendment. Part of that thinking is that women participate in porn films of their own free will and that porn often represents fantasies -- though sometimes quasiviolent or degrading -- that people actually have. So as long as people are merely acting in porn films and there is no coercion, or law-breaking, it is acceptable.

But I've changed my mind. No, I'm not a prude, or anti-sex. Nor do I think there should be a national campaign to snuff out all porn. In fact, I sometimes watch certain kinds of porn. But what has become clear to me is that, under the guise of the First Amendment, a huge and powerful porn industrial complex has grown out of control. And a big part of its growth is fueled, not just by the internet, but by continually upping the ante, increasing the extremes of degradation for the women in tens of thousands of films made every year. I am convinced, although it is, of course, difficult to document, that the huge audiences for porn and the pervasiveness of the themes and behaviors of degradation are having a negative impact on the way men behave and the way society treats women.

Sexism and attitudes toward women were supposed to have gotten better after the 1960s and the feminist movement. The sons of boomers were going to be different. And while perhaps that is true in some cases, what we have instead is more violence against women and more social acceptance of demeaning male attitudes and behaviors that would have been considered out of bounds 20 or 30 years ago. As a society, we've gone backwards.

Part of my thinking on pornography has been shaped by seeing what is on the internet myself, and part, by reading Robert Jensen's powerful and provocative book, excerpted below: Getting Off: Pornography and the End of Masculinity. Jensen has convinced me that something as powerful as the porn industry and its sexual extremism must not be kept under the rug due to liberal shoulder-shrugging about the First Amendment. The porn industry should not enjoy our collective denial in terms of its real-world impact on women -- and men -- simply because we might be berated by First Amendment purists or be uncomfortable grappling with complex issues of sexual expression.

The debate must be pushed, and the consciousness raised. Many will say, don't mess with the issue because it's a slippery slope and could lead to the repression of other freedoms. I've concluded we need to take that chance. Male attitudes are potentially being shaped by ugly and sometimes disgusting abuse toward women. And tens of thousands of young women are being seduced and intimidated into lives of extreme public humiliation on-screen. The impact on their lives over the long run could be devastating.

The advent of Gonzo

One phenomenon in porn is the ascension of Gonzo films. There are two styles of films -- one are features that mimic, however badly, the Hollywood model of plot and characters. But the other, Gonzo, has no pretensions, and is simply the filming of sex acts, which, Jensen writes, while also occurring in features, are "performed in rougher fashion, often with more than one man involved, and more explicitly degrading language, which marks women as sluts, whores, cunts, nasty bitches and so on."

The Gonzo films, which have come to dominate the industry, also emphasize the newer trend of sexual acts, which include: double penetration -- anal and vaginal -- and ass to mouth, or ATM, where anal sex is followed by sticking the penis in the women's mouth. In addition, many of these films include men, often in multiple numbers, ejaculating into the faces and mouths of the women performers. The women usually swallow the semen, but also can share it mouth-to-mouth with a female partner. For Jensen, the most plausible explanation of the popularity of these acts is that women in the world, outside of pornography, don't engage in these acts unless forced. "Men know that -- and they find it sexually arousing to watch them in part because of that knowledge."

As Jerome Tanner, porn film maker, explains, "One of the things about today's porn and the extreme market, the gonzo market, is so many fans want to see much more extreme stuff that I'm always trying to figure out ways to do something different. But it seems that everybody wants to see a girl doing a double penetration or a gang bang. ... It's definitely brought porn somewhere, but I don't know where it is headed from there."

Mitchell Spinelli, interviewed while filming Give me Gape, adds: "People want more. They want to know how many dicks you can shove up an ass. It's like 'Fear Factor meets Jackass.' Make it more hard, make it more nasty, make it more relentless."

Jensen clearly decided in writing his book that the often overwhelming reality of the behavior and values of the porn industry must be experienced by the reader, at least in written form, to understand what the issues are. Thus, in the book, he describes porn scenes, quotes dialogue in the porn films, and includes interviews with porn actors to help capture what they are thinking. Some of this is a little hard to take. Here is one example:


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Don Hazen is the executive editor of AlterNet. Robert Jensen is a journalism professor at the University of Texas at Austin and board member of the Third Coast Activist Resource Center. He is also the author of The Heart of Whiteness: Race, Racism, and White Privilege and Citizens of the Empire: The Struggle to Claim Our Humanity (both from City Lights Books). He can be reached here and his articles are online here.

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Bothering...
Posted by: chomsky on Sep 22, 2007 12:38 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's what bothers me in porn:
- When you see the thumbnail of a movie of a crying or gagged woman "raped" by several men, how can you tell if it is fiction and not a real rape with a real victim? You can't.
- Anyway, why would someone want to see such sick movies? What is so fun about seeing someone cry/suffer?
- Why is kiddie porn (often very extreme with rapes) in japanese manga (cartoons) tolerated so easily? The only positive thing is that it seems not to influence them in reality.
- Where is the fun in todays movies? Where are my damn "old-style" erotic/porn movies; I can only find "bunny-style" "butcher-style" scenes. Even women directors these days film these meat-festivals that have no fun/sensuality. It's like watching donkey sex for god sake!!!!
So, as we have junk-food, we have junk porn... Too bad.

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» RE: Bothering... Posted by: Cruella
» RE: Bothering... Posted by: biginJapan
» RE: Bothering... Posted by: greenman
» RE: Bothering... Posted by: Wessex
» You're right Posted by: kepstein7777
Research needed here
Posted by: Logic's Edge on Sep 22, 2007 12:44 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Male attitudes are potentially being shaped by ugly and sometimes disgusting abuse toward women."

The key word being potentially. The author doesn't provide any information about just how many men (1) purchase and watch porn, (2) how frequently, or (3) purchase and watch the more extreme forms.

"It hurts to know that no matter who you are as a woman you can be reduced to a thing to be penetrated, and that men will buy movies about that, and that in many of those movies your humiliation will be the central theme. It hurts to know that so much of the pornography that men are buying fuses sexual desire with cruelty.

It hurts women, and men like it, and it hurts just to know that."

A huge generalization. "Men buy movies like that." "Men like it." Again no data indicating just how many do.

Another question I'd have is concerning the BDSM industry, which has plenty of female participants. Maybe they're consumers of this porn too?

And what does this have to do with masculinity? If anything, an increasing interest in extreme porn would indicate that increasingly some men are no longer being raised in an environment that is healthy for them and their needs. A perversion of normal, healthy masculinity, not a representation of it.

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» RE: esearch needed here Posted by: frosty86
» RE: female porn Posted by: fiddler83
» RE: sarcasm over romance novels Posted by: fiddler83
just blame porn
Posted by: biginJapan on Sep 22, 2007 12:49 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The book looks interesting and the article is well written. I suppose me jerking off to Bangbus videos and laughing about it afterwards should make me feel guilty. Yes, because of what I saw and enjoyed, I'm adding to the deterioation of American social values. Porn. Of course. It has to be porn that's the root to all this horror we see. You know, I live in Japan, and let me tell you, the GONZO film industry including BUKKAKE (where several men ejaculate on a girls face, etc.) was created here. There is NOBODY that gives a flying #$ck about it and I don't see Japaense society falling apart at the seams because of it. European films are as nasty as they "cum" but you don't see anybody pointing to pornography as a source for troubling social trends over there. I'd sure love, FOR ONCE, for alternet to just try to write an article about the horrible sexual REPRESSION that goes on in America (crap, now that I've said that, I'm sure there probably has been one too... I'll look it up later). Maybe if people weren't all so scared of sex, or guilted into feeling that way by religion, etcetera, there wouldn't be a need for this guy to waste all this time and energy on a book about some dirty movies. All the points in this article are extremely interesting.... degradation and violence towards women that aren't asking to participate in it because A) they like it or B) they desperately need the money is WRONG (pretty sure there's a lot of ACTING going on in those bangbus videos, and if not, why the hell aren't the police putting a stop to it????). But if you ask me, the fact that women are having to work for the porn industry at all, or the fact that so many American men out there have nothing but porn to run to for a sexual outlet.... those are some big problems.... oh yeah, and the IRAQ WAR and HEALTH INDUSTRY problem stuff is important too. Not as important as PORN!! but well, important.

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» RE: just blame porn Posted by: richholland
» RE: just blame porn Posted by: morticia
» Nihon Posted by: EKSwitaj
» RE: Nihon Posted by: biginJapan
» RE: just blame porn Posted by: logansafi
» RE: just blame porn Posted by: flapdoodle
Porn is about money. The Adult industry is valued at $10 billion annually according to one estimate.
Posted by: yellow on Sep 22, 2007 12:55 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Like much else these days, porn is about money. In the 1960s, at the height of the sexual revolution, the adult industry was nothing. Now it is a multibillion dollar industry. And all this at the height of the big family values campaign.

Capitalism has reached a phase when everything is commodified. Profit is all. Society is increasingly being run over by the onslaught of capital. This is the root of all current oppression.

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» No, it's not Posted by: oobi
» RE: No, it's not Posted by: screwjack2000
I worked for a place in the San Fernando Valley
Posted by: asilsfable on Sep 22, 2007 1:25 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
doing graphics for the box covers. Actually, I was the photo chooser and retoucher.

It's worse than the article illustrates. While I was there, porn seemed to go through a 'dog bowl' phase; it was de rigeur to have woman drink/eat out of dog/cat bowls while they were penetrated from all sides. Producers would talk about 'getting girls before they get used up' and they were ALWAYS on the lookout for new talent. The editor would tell me about what he would see in the outtakes while he was cutting the movies together--really disturbing.

Everyday there was like a surreal sitcom.

Interesting thing--all of the men who worked there could not watch anymore. Instead of arousing them, it disgusted them. I wanted to see what an actual set was like but my workmates were adamant about me not going. They insisted that it was 'gross' and that most of them couldn't tolerate it.

I've spoken with other men who've worked in the industry, even friends who had boyfriends who worked in adult bookstores. They said that sex got 'weird'; it lost its subtlety and became desireless and route. Most of the porn stars I've met seem either asexual or attracted to the sex they are not fucking on camera.

How far can you go when you reach for extremes? The inner world is vast and expansive yet so unexplored.

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» You poor thing! Posted by: logansafi
What?
Posted by: parmenicleitus on Sep 22, 2007 1:35 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Why, then, does porn is more popular?

I can't wait for the apologetics for pointing out this garble.

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» Seriously... Posted by: kepstein7777
smells fishy to me
Posted by: frantaylor on Sep 22, 2007 2:06 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I'm no fan of degradation or any of that kind of stuff, but this sounds just like the video game controversy. The problem is that you confuse the horse and the cart, or you neglect the landslide beneath. It's possible that some other force is causing the change in behavior and this purported increase in yucky pornography is just a symptom of something else. We've barely even begun to understand the strangeness of our own minds. Pretending that we've figured it out and hacking away at social institutions is not something to take lightly.

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» RE: smells fishy to me Posted by: quitecontrary
» Circling the wagons? Posted by: supercrisp
how about women friendly porno ????
Posted by: richholland on Sep 22, 2007 2:25 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
in real life the men is the sucker, working hard, paying allowence to his former wife.
So he needs porno to get even.
There is also women friendly porno.

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» Interesting theory Posted by: kepstein7777
Not just porn...
Posted by: ahmlco on Sep 22, 2007 2:48 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
From one aspect, much of what is said applies to the film industry in general. ALL genres of film are continually trying to outdo their predecessors. Teen comedies continually try to out-gross older films. Action movies want more action. Horror films try to be more, well, horrible. All trying to show us things we haven't seen before.

As such, I also think there's a bit of self-fulfillment going on here, in that one tends to find what one is looking for. Look for "harder" films, and you'll find them. Explore the cross-links between those sites, and pretty soon you'd think that those films are all that there is.

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Problem?
Posted by: ahmlco on Sep 22, 2007 3:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Jensen is a professor of journalism at the University of Texas who specializes in writing books on controversial subjects. As such, I think one also needs to ask just how much of a problem actually exists. Because without the alarming "problem" the author has no book. If the situation isn't immediate and dire, then there's no publicity.

Is there a real problem? Or is this like the controversy regarding violence in video games? Games that are supposed to desensitize our youth and predispose them to violence... when in fact violent crime rates have been declining pretty much year-over-year ever since the video game was invented.

Is there a problem? Do these films mirror reality? Or are they as escapist as the exploits of Bruce Willis in the last Die Hard movie? I saw the latest version of Halloween too. Does that mean that I'm now predisposed to using a kitchen knife in an inappropriate fashion?

Should the questions the author is asking be asked? Sure. But we also need to keep in mind just who may be asking the questions, and what they have to gain in the process. Remember, the author is not a sociologist, or a psychiatrist, but a professor of Journalism. He's not an expert in the field of study.

This isn't a personal attack, but a fact we have to face and debate every time someone tells us about a "problem" about which "something must be done".

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monkey see, monkey do?
Posted by: Suzon on Sep 22, 2007 3:51 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The more we become aware of any human activity, the more likely we are to imitate it. In other words, our exposure to the thoughts and deeds of others has been hugely increased by technology.

In living memory (just!), there were photographs but not films, radio but not television, books and magazines but not DVDs, telephones but not affordable filming equipment.

Many people don't think very deeply. If porn is "normal" then it must be no big deal.

We should be moving away from simply educating people for careers and begin educating them to live meaningful lives.

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» RE: monkey see, monkey do? Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: monkey see, monkey do? Posted by: CandianBear
Pornography causes masturbation. OMG!!!
Posted by: UnEasyOne on Sep 22, 2007 3:52 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When the author quoted Andrea Dworkin - who DID condemn heterosexual sex - but wrote a lesbian porn novel thereafter, I barely managed to finish the article. This article is way light on facts - long on propaganda.

Having said that, I myself once saw a movie that still disturbs me 30 years later. This movie was set in the west and in a rape scene, one of the men repeatedly punched a barely resisting woman repeatedly in the face with full force. You will never convince me it was fake and I am still horrified by it.

The author also brings up a valid point as far as general mistreatment of the actresses is concerned. Rather than banning the porn however (which I personally find disgusting) I believe that there is plenty that can be done in terms of unionizing the actresses and banning acts that are unsafe working practices.

I like lots of nekkid girls. I find most of what is discribed here unerotic and gross - but I suspect the motive here is more about banning the viewing of what the author (and myself) find distasteful than protecting the actresses.

I am all in favor of protecting the actresses. I firmly believe there are things we can and should do in that regard and would support initiatives that actually had that as their actual aim.

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» Dworkin Posted by: off-the-radar 2
» RE: Dworkin Posted by: UnEasyOne
» RE: Dworkin Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
Censorship
Posted by: Urgelt on Sep 22, 2007 3:56 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I agree with the premise. America is a cruel nation, and mainstream, degrading pornography reflects and even amplifes that cruelty.

It's extremely disheartening. Not just the cruelty towards women - though that is certainly disheartening. But the other manifestations of cruelty, too, indifference to suffering, inequities, death, where nationalism and predatory capitalism trumps humanity and morality.

But the conclusion that the answer is censorship is flawed. It's much more than a slippery slope we are talking about when we speak of censorship. It's a slippery slope aimed at totalitarianism.

In a totalitarian America, women will not fare better than they fare today. Instead, a ruling elite will exercise absolute, unconstrained power over everyone else. Excesses of brutality and cruelty will be given free reign to those who serve the regime.

Censorship is the key that unlocks that door.

Notice that I am not arguing on abstract 1st Amendment grounds. I am arguing that censorship delivers to government the power to shape what information can be heard. That power is coveted by wealthy elites; unable to obtain it through government alone, they have sought to obtain it by buying media corporations and shaping the messages they carry, which is bad enough. By advocating government censorship of morally repugnant messages, we will be playing right into their power-grubbing hands.

The author has underscored a disturbing fact about the nature of men in America and the women with whom they have relationships. Hiding it with censorship is not an answer. The answer, if there is one, lies in social engineering: attempts to restructure the society in which we live. But there are, there must be, firm limits on what government can be allowed to do. Otherwise the solutions will impose far worse damage upon our society than the problems they seek to solve.

Education is fair game; it could do a lot to dissuade willing participation by women in degrading pornography. So, too, are attempts to get the pornography industry to reign in its own excesses. But I will not willingly concede to the government the power to censor pornography, or any other protected speech. That is a road I do not want to travel.

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» RE: Censorship Posted by: Just Curious
Pornography and more
Posted by: kgs1947 on Sep 22, 2007 4:32 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The style of pornography is simply a symptom, I believe, of a much greater phenomenon that is happening in this country. Do I need to remind us of the quality of the public media, the drama of this current administration of lies and brutality and dictatorship, the violence in our streets and homes, the rage that exists in this culture and perpetrated by authority figures (religion, government, banking industry, corporate culture et al)?

Fantasies can be used as a healthy outlet of unmet needs and rage/anger is also a way to focus on unmet needs. The perpetuate need to conform to feel accepted is tantamount to emotional rape that leads to physical degradation.

This issue is not only one of using/abusing women as objects, but is indicative of the rise of violence against men who have sex with men...."gay bashing" in schools, in homes, in churches, in government, in corporations. It's directly related to violence against women because "queers" are seen as just like women, "less than men". What it means to be masculine is not being feminine in any way!

I want to remind mothers of how they teach their sons to behave, what values they manifest in their lives, what beliefs they hold around what it means to be a "man". The men's movement, the feminist movement, the gay revolution have failed miserably because they have not focused on the underlying cultural commitment to "men are superior" and if you want to be a man, then you must conform to this stereotype. Otherwise, you will not make it in life.

The patriarchal order will continue to bash and demean and degrade women and other men ("sisses", "wimps", "fags") until men and women unite in changing the cultural belief system and tolerance for violence to survive in a "man eat man" world and redefine what it means to be "a man."

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porn is good
Posted by: dannrusso on Sep 22, 2007 4:37 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
porn is excellent...

woman-on-woman porn with no other person in the room...no guy to beat them, F%^& them, whatever them, just two women exploring the beauty of their bodies.

anything else is just smut and I dont care for smut. OK, I'm being mostly faceitious - but I do think that censorship in general is a terrible practice so I cannot allow myself to condemn something that was entered into willingly on both sides, no matter how foul I find it....

:-) well, that is my opinion anyway

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» RE: porn is good Posted by: Just Curious
It's normal: welcome to humankind
Posted by: PJT on Sep 22, 2007 4:52 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are Greek vases and wall paintings in Pompeii depicting "rough sex." Sexual degredation was almost ritualized in ancient Rome: there is an entire vocabulary devoted to it. You classicists can look it up if you want to. Societies today that repress sex always seem to be founded on some male-centered Stone Age myth where the women are the property of the men and the point is to keep the women for the exclusive use of their owners. My question about pornography is: when was it ever any different? Was there some golden age when women were on an equal footing with men and the men weren't exploiting women for something? There were 10,000 prostitutes in straight-laced Victorian England.

If you check out one of the vintage porn photo sites you will see that while "propriety" may have acted as a restraint on the activities of the prostitutes and their partners in the old pictures, you can see clearly enough around the edges that not much was different 100 years ago. The internet and access to equipment and technology has put the tools to represent the sexual exploitation of women into the hands of every moron on the street. What makes the author think anything has changed?

Violence toward women (and the weak) is in the grain of society. I don't believe that the average human is more civilized today than the average citizen of Rome. We may not hold spectacles in arenas where people are impaled on sticks and eaten still alive by wild animals, but if we did, there would be sell-out audiences at $200 a ticket. In 15 years, I predict you WILL be able to witness any degraded, violent or sadistic spectacle you care to imagine thanks to the power of computing to create life-like simulacra of real events. As society skates toward the edge of oblivion, the psychotics and mal-adjusted will lead the way, as always.

The solution is tough. Look at the society with the MOST freedom and at the same time the LEAST violence and sadism and what do they have going for them? Is it Finland? Sweden? Some place like that? They have a commitment (albeit recent) toward liberal tolerance, a healthy respect for the individual, an egalitarian society that discourages excess of either poverty or wealth, respect for education and a common sense appreciation of human yearnings and suffering. It wasn't like this in Finland and Sweden 100 years ago, but it is now. It can be done, but it takes work. Is there any hope for us? I don't think so. P J Tramdack

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» women in antiquity Posted by: oobi
We have hate literature laws, so why not apply them to women?
Posted by: Beagle17 on Sep 22, 2007 4:55 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
In my home country of Canada, there was a time when the so-called hate literature law received a lot of attention and debate. It was used to punish two men, Ernst Zündels and Jim Keegstras, for publishing amd teaching (respectively) anti-semetic theories.

The law has been challenged on grounds of violating the right to free speech, but the supreme court has upheld the law (more than once, I believe) as a valid infringement of free speech, pointing out the old adage that you can't shout "Fire!" in a movie theatre as one reason to not assume that free speech rights are absolute.

What puzzles me, and not just from reading this article either, is why our legal system, typically so quick to use the hate literature law to slap down anti-semetism, fails to use the same law against mysoginist publications. If I were to produce a magazine that contained no sexual picture, but proceded to argue that women were so unworthy of respect that they should be humiliated sexually whenever possible and this humiliation broadcast as widely as possible, I suspect the hate literature law would be used to stop me and punish me. I doubt anyone would object.

So it is a problem of language. When certain "porn" gives the same message, but without using words, a lot of people seem to get confused as to whether it is then somehow art.

I think it would be quite simple to define certain limits on pornography using the concepts of mysogyny and hate literature as guidelines. Oh, there might be some cases where the courts will have to get busy and define things more clearly as the laws get challenged, but that's what our legal system is for.

I think Bangbus etc. would fail the mysogyny test, even as a lot of kinky Japanese stuff would pass it. But it wouldn't be my opinion that matters; some sort of consensus would emerge eventually.

But I have to agree with the author and filmmaker that doing nothing is a very poor approach.

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» Myth: Porn is mysoginist. Posted by: jimidee
» RE: Myth: Porn is mysoginist. Posted by: Beagle17
» RE: Myth: Porn is mysoginist. Posted by: frosty86
» RE: Myth: Porn is mysoginist. Posted by: Beagle17
» RE: Myth: Porn is mysoginist. Posted by: logansafi
» Hate speech laws Posted by: geoff_canuck
» RE: Myth: Porn is mysoginist. Posted by: goldmarx
» RE: JUST SAY NO TO THE NANNY STATE Posted by: GREGORYABUTLER
Ghost of Falwell???
Posted by: jeff2045 on Sep 22, 2007 5:06 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I can't believe I'm hearing this regurgitated crap here, of all places. Is it the ghost of Jerry Falwell?

Conservative Christians might run a close second, but the Taliban are the most repressive people I know of. They don't tolerate porn of any kind, violent or otherwise. They don't tolerate the sight of a woman's face or ankles in public. But they are also the most violent and degrading culture toward women I know of, too.

The sight of women is not the source of lust. The portrayal of violence is NOT the source of violence. This article and it's source are far closer to that than violent pornography, which is but a symptom. Violent pornography sheds light on the fact that we have a problem, and prevents repression of that little fact. Shove it under the rug, or the Birkah, or into the hands of the executioner, and the problem is hidden along with it. Burying the murderer does not bring an end to murder.

The underlying problems are much more complex. Their solutions are far more complex and confounding than protesting violent pornography, reducing it, or bringing an end to it. I ask anyone who believes otherwise to: 1) remove head from butt, 2) open eyes, 3) seek REAL ways to help women and the many other repressed minorities upon whom violence is routinely wrought, and 4) stop wasting your time and mine.

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» Hey, don't confuse them with the facts Posted by: MartianBachelor
End of Masculinity?
Posted by: ihugtrees on Sep 22, 2007 5:07 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I don't understand this... How can porn cause the end of masculinity? Maybe I just need to re-read the article but I don't get it.

As a masculine liberal thinker I don't see much wrong with porn between consenting adults, or the viewing of that porn. Sure, there's degrading and cruel porn but it's not the mainstream of porn.

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» RE: nd of Masculinity? Posted by: frosty86
It all sounds SOOOO familiar...
Posted by: jimidee on Sep 22, 2007 5:21 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
just like back in the early 70's when the bible thumpers got ol' Tricky Dick to go after the "scourge of epidemic proportions" of the time..."DeepThroat". The same arguments were made as was the same hysterical banter. Why are we so susceptable to the gorilla in the closet trick?

The author sez:

"But the other, Gonzo, has no pretensions, and is simply the filming of sex acts, which, Jensen writes, while also occurring in features, are "performed in rougher fashion, often with more than one man involved, and more explicitly degrading language which marks women as sluts, whores, cunts, nasty bitches and so on."

It sounds like an fundementalist Southern Baptist preacherman describing a Fiddy-cent hip-hop video. There is nothing new here...and it is soooo tired.

My wife and I am are porn fans...it is a fun part of foreplay...it clears our minds of the daily grind, and on to what is important...fantasy! So, I peruse the catalogues periodically, and I have never seen anything of late that remotely looks like some of the stuff that "changed" the authors mind...the so called "Gonzo" films. I am not saying that they don't exist...I am just saying that like in many other moralistic causes, the author is hyperventilating to make his case. What are his motives? Oh yeah, he is trying to sell us something old a recycled!

It is not like we don't have real problems to deal with that are currently destroying our country and world...why are we dwelling on this trivia? Two words...sensationalism sells. I can't decide which is more smutty, porn or the whole movement trying to destroy it! The whole thing has a Repugnican smell to it to me.

In fact, I see the porn industry evolving into more of a sophisticated art form, where it isn't just the woman opening the door for the well-hung pizza boy and then they take off all their clothes and do it (which the author says he prefers!). The stuff the wife and I buy is more like a traditional movie where the love scenes are much more vivid...and real, BTW. The exponential growth of the industry is definitely going in that direction, according to the sheer number videos being offered. Like in the mainstream DVD's, many offer "Behind the Scenes" footage with interviews of the stars and starlettes, and they sure don't seem like victims to me. They are laughing all the way to the bank, and having the times of their lives doing it.

Beware of the chicken little types who are recycling old fears with hyperbole...a well-worn tactic that is employed by the conservatives and neo-cons. Ask yourself, "Why are we buying into this (again)?"

Let the stoning begin!

jimidang

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» more rationalizing Posted by: frosty86
People Are Scared of Sex.
Posted by: Lady X on Sep 22, 2007 5:31 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Mirrors can be dangerous, and pornography is a mirror."

This, for me was the most lucid line in the article. Bigger than the issue of porn is the terror of sex, desire and male-female power imbalances.
America, historically has been about power hierarchies, slavery and destroying cultures we feel threatened by. There is an underlying violence and rage that
(to me) colors many of our belief systems. We look to religion and morality to keep our Id under control rather than use it for creative puposes and to accelerate vitality.

Instead, since sex cannot be supresssed, since it is the
primal urge to create life- it is expressed in dark sometimes
violent and debasing ways through pornogrpahy, sexual abuse, domestic violence, etc.
Rape is never about sex or desire but power and rage. Here- it feels the 2 are intertwined in weird unconsoius ways


Pornography (IMO) is the dark shadow side of America's fear of sex and life force that religion, politics and "morality" cannot control.
This fear has been handed down culturally and through the
Judeo-Christian religious system and other toxic limiting belief systems. We, as Americans
( as a country/culture) seem to take the most exception to sex of all kinds in a fearful way, except sex regulated by the Church or political "moral" codes- there is always going to be a dark scary energy around sex that wil be mirrored by pornography, domestic violence, rape, s&m ....Take your pick.

Personally, I am far more concerned with the destructive and highly addictive and far reachning power of the international pharmaceutical industry. What about the military -industrial complex?
What about the global weapons manufactruing industries.
These industries kill and destroy the lives of millions of people worldwide. People barely seem to have a reaction
to industries that intend to control , dominate and destroy the lives of sovereign citizens world wide.

This is an excellent and thought provoking article. It is my
belief, that until we get to the deeper spiritual imbalances around sex in this country and really address our terror
of sex and deep emotion- there will always be a porn
industry and sexually related violence

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Violence in porn
Posted by: dmaciewski on Sep 22, 2007 5:37 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I beg a question about a somewhat basic point, but I don't think using the term "slut" used frequently on a website such as Youporn could be anything but degrading. And regardless of whether women accept such a situation, if so, they probably need a shrink. And speaking of a psychological take, I challenge the idea that sexual violence can ever be a healthy "outlet" to deal with sexual repression. I'm tending more and more towards agreeing with a religious perspective that warns of a self-centered sexuality. If love is blind, sexuality is more blinding.

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» RE: Violence in porn? So what? Posted by: UnEasyOne
mizzmoze
Posted by: mizzmoze on Sep 22, 2007 5:43 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
this garbage is bareley watchable! the scary part is,a new generation of kids have been watching it on the internet with full acess,and this is thier distorted view of woman,and how they see them,and it shows! Parents,you think your parental controls are keeping your kids safe?
Do they have music downloads? Well these pear to peer sights also have millons of pages of filth,they can watch delete,change the name to a song,and you would never know!
its amazing,that are complaints about gas going up 10-30 cents reaches the whitehouse,but nobody monitors and puts limits on such mind twisting garbage that belittles woman,and makes then look like pigs,and creates monsters,rapists,abusers,from our kids generations and on! Thanks to all those woman who participate in the nasty acts,they only help to the poison!And of course the filthy minds that depict the acts!.And the men and woman whom perform this garbage! It would be fine,if it was left to natural love making and exploration of two human beings,but all the sick sick stuff today in these films,makes it unbearable to watch!
somebody clean up this world! its a filthy mess!

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» free porn Posted by: jingles
» RE: free porn...prove it! Posted by: jimidee
» RE: free porn...prove it! Posted by: jingles
» Hypocracy Posted by: suprmark
» RE: Hypocracy Posted by: frosty86
This is anger
Posted by: TonyGottlieb on Sep 22, 2007 5:51 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hello ? This is the pyschological backwash of a culture of women who eliminate the offspring of their mates. The reaction to 1.2 million infanticides a year for 35 years. A biological instinct for the preservation of the species, is not emerging here as an increased understanding of women. What does it take to wake you people up? This article describes the sympytom of a condition but never addresses the cause.

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The end of masculinity...it's a Repugnican thang!
Posted by: jimidee on Sep 22, 2007 5:55 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The record is very clear.

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