COMMENTS: 173
Iraq Death Toll Rivals Rwanda Genocide, Cambodian Killing Fields
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Field workers asked residents how many members of their own household had been killed since the invasion. More than one in five respondents said that at least one person in their home had been murdered since March of 2003. One in three Iraqis also said that at least some neighbors "actually living on [their] street" had fled the carnage, with around half of those having left the country.
In Baghdad, almost half of those interviewed reported at least one violent death in their household.
Before the study's release, the highest estimate of Iraqi deaths had been around 650,000 in the landmark Johns Hopkins' study published in the Lancet, a highly respected and peer-reviewed British medical journal. Unlike that study, which measured the difference in deaths from all causes during the first three years of the occupation with the mortality rate that existed prior to the invasion, the ORB poll looked only at deaths due to violence.
The poll's findings are in line with the rolling estimate maintained on the Just Foreign Policy website, based on the Johns Hopkins' data, that stands at just over 1 million Iraqis killed as of this writing.
These numbers suggest that the invasion and occupation of Iraq rivals the great crimes of the last century -- the human toll exceeds the 800,000 to 900,000 believed killed in the Rwandan genocide in 1994, and is approaching the number (1.7 million) who died in Cambodia's infamous "Killing Fields" during the Khmer Rouge era of the 1970s.
While the stunning figures should play a major role in the debate over continuing the occupation, they probably won't. That's because there are three distinct versions of events in Iraq -- the bloody criminal nightmare that the "reality-based community" has to grapple with, the picture the commercial media portrays and the war that the occupation's last supporters have conjured up out of thin air. Similarly, American discourse has also developed three different levels of Iraqi casualties. There's the approximately 1 million killed according to the best epidemiological research conducted by one of the world's most prestigious scientific institutions, there's the 75,000-80,000 (based on news reports) the Washington Post and other commercial media allow, and there's the clean and antiseptic blood-free war the administration claims to have fought (recall that they dismissed the Lancet findings out of hand and yet offered no numbers of their own).
Here's the troubling thing, and one reason why opposition to the war isn't even more intense than it is: Americans were asked in an AP poll conducted earlier this year how many Iraqi civilians they thought had been killed as a result of the invasion and occupation, and the median answer they gave was 9,890. That's less than a third of the number of civilian deaths confirmed by U.N. monitors in 2006 alone.
Most of that disconnect is probably a result of American exceptionalism -- the United States is, by definition, the good guy, and good guys don't launch wars of choice that result in over a million people being massacred. Never mind that that's exactly what the data show; acknowledging as much creates intolerable cognitive dissonance for most Americans, so as a nation, we won't.
But there's more to it than that. The dominant narrative of Iraq is that most of the violence against Iraqis is being perpetrated by Iraqis themselves and is not our responsibility. That's wrong morally -- we chose to go into Iraq despite the fact that public health NGOs warned in advance of the likelihood of 500,000 civilian deaths due to "collateral damage." It's also factually incorrect -- as Stony Brook University scholar Michael Schwartz noted a few months ago, the Johns-Hopkins study looked at who was responsible for the violent deaths it measured and found that coalition forces were directly responsible for 56 percent of the deaths in which the perpetrator was known. According to Schwartz's number crunching, based on the Lancet data, coalition troops were responsible for at least 180,000 and as many as 330,000 violent deaths through the middle of last year. There's no compelling reason to think the share attributable to occupation forces has decreased significantly since then.
Like the earlier study in the Lancet -- one that relied on widely accepted methodology for its results -- this new research is already being dismissed out of hand. The strange thing is that common sense alone should be enough to conclude that the United States has killed a huge number of Iraqi civilians. After all, it's become conventional wisdom (based on several studies) that about 90 percent of all casualties in modern warfare are civilians. We know that the military, in addition to deploying 500 missiles and bombs in the first six months of this year alone, has had trouble keeping up with the demand for bullets in the Iraqi theater. According to a 2005 report by Lt. Col. Dean Mengel at the Army War College, the number of rounds being fired off is enormous (PDF):
[One news report] noted that the Army estimated it would need 1.5 billion small arms rounds per year, which was three times the amount produced just three years earlier. In another, it was noted by the Associated Press that soldiers were shooting bullets faster than they could be produced by the manufacturer.1.5 billion rounds per year … more bullets fired than can be manufactured. Given that the estimated number of active insurgents in Iraq has never exceeded 30,000 -- and is usually given as less than 20,000 -- that leaves a lot of deadly lead flying around. Everyone agrees that the U.S. soldier is the best-trained fighter on earth, so it's somewhat bizarre that war supporters believe their shots rarely hit anybody.
If it weren't for the layers of denial that have been dutifully built up around the American strategic class, these figures might put to rest the notion that U.S. troops are preventing more deaths than they cause.
Recall that the stated reason for the invasion was to reduce the number of countries suspected of having an illicit WMD program from 36 to 35. Amid all the talk of troop deaths and the billions of dollars being thrown away in Iraq, it's important to remember that it is the Iraqis that are paying such a dear price for achieving that modest goal.
With a Congress frozen into inaction, all that remains to be seen is what the final death toll from the Iraq war will be. The sad truth is that we may never know the full scope of the carnage.
Editor's note: much of the ammunition used in Iraq is for training purposes. That was unclear from the article.
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Posted by: Michael Boldin on Sep 17, 2007 12:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Really, when is enough killing going to be enough? Will these people ever have their thirst quenched for power, profits and war? Sometimes, I think not....
Throwing away the lives of people - and ignoring the reality of the massive numbers is totally repugnant to the ideals of a free society....what America is supposed to be.
Aggressive war was once punished as a war crime back at the Nuremburg trials. I also believe that this war of aggression holds some very serious moral and legal implications for all those involved.
It's time for this madness - the death and destruction - the murder of innocents - to come to an end.
Well, if you'd like, read on for more.
"Collateral Damage is Murder" - click here
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» RE: But....but....but....
Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com
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Posted by: The Old Hippie on Sep 17, 2007 1:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But is it really too late to turn it around? I’m sure most all of us really want that to not be the case. But - I honestly don’t know if it’s not already too late. The fact that the evidence of the reality of the un-hidden criminal sociopathic nature of this administration’s pro-corporate agenda of profits-over-even-life-&-nation, has been so well proven, and so in-our-faces for so long, that the denial of it is beyond any possible sane rationality. The fact that there has been no revolt, and so far no real attempted stopping of the “allowing” by the citizenry of my nation, in the face of the overwhelming evidence of the ongoing destruction caused by the few, over the many, that I think the continued allowing, and the self-destructive denial, has become, not only a disgrace, it has maybe become pathological. I admit it’s possibility scares the hell out of me.
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» RE: Ain't Gonna Happen. . .
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: brunowe on Sep 17, 2007 1:04 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Further, assuming 672,000 Iraqis killed from Coalition violence (56% of 1.2 million, drawing the 56% from the article you referenced), the number doesn't break down how many were civilians and how many were legitimate targets. Given the large percentage of civilians who die in modern war (as you pointed out) and the fact that US forces use airstrikes and recon-by-fire (essentially, firepower as a counter-insurgency strategy), I'm sure a large chunk of that was civilians.
Surely these numbers are appalling enough without a deeply flawed analogy to crimes of genocide.
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» What comparison?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: What comparison?
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: What comparison?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Genocide is different
Posted by: brunowe
» "There are two kinds of people in the world,
Posted by: particle
» RE: Genocide is different
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Genocidal opportunities are still abundant
Posted by: mgloraine
» RE: Genocidal opportunities are still abundant
Posted by: particle
» RE: What comparison?
Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: Sensational Headlines...
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Sensational Headlines...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: What comparison?
Posted by: OhioPatriot
» What legitimate targets? This is an illegitimate war.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» I don't claim it's a legitimate war.
Posted by: brunowe
» Have you not been paying attention to the US-sponsored ethnic cleansing?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» You don't make your case.
Posted by: brunowe
» Ethnic cleansing and genocide: the legal definition
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: thnic cleansing and genocide: the legal definition
Posted by: brunowe
» Deliberate partition, ethnic cleansing and genocide.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Neocon Sickness
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: You don't make your case.
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: I don't claim it's a legitimate war.
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: I don't claim it's a legitimate war.
Posted by: brunowe
» Semantics.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» No, you're just dishonest with language.
Posted by: brunowe
» Sorry, I guess that's just a million 'collateral damages' - unintended, no doubt.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Yes. And if dubbing any resistance or arab/muslim nationalists as terrorist....
Posted by: justaguy
» Sorry, I haven't actually accused Ahmadinejad of advocating genocide.
Posted by: brunowe
» I wasn't specifically referring to you.
Posted by: justaguy
» It doesn't have to be anything of the kind
Posted by: brunowe
» Non sequitur.
Posted by: justaguy
» Genocide is HAPPENING. What You Address is Denial and Cartoon Fizz
Posted by: Aramis
» RE: It doesn't have to be anything of the kind
Posted by: leafsong1
» If it's about pushing them onto reservations, then its ethnic cleansing
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: If it's about pushing them onto reservations, then its ethnic cleansing
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: No, you're just dishonest with language.
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: No, you're just dishonest with language.
Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: I don't claim it's a legitimate war.
Posted by: leafsong1
» It is deliberate genocide
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: It is deliberate genocide
Posted by: blitzmesser
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Posted by: nzo on Sep 17, 2007 1:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do you imagine for one second that if Bush, Cheyney et al were subjected to the pain of even one child, one mother, one father who had their limbs torn off by shrapnel, that they would continue to do what they are doing?
If they actually felt this pain, this stupid war, and all wars, would end instantly. Not tomorrow, a week or year from now, but instantly!
You bet they would stop.
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» RE: Psychopaths are incapable of feeling another's pain
Posted by: Dale Dressler
» This killing reflects upon all human beings
Posted by: Tomover
» RE: You get the government you deserve?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: You get the government you deserve?
Posted by: nzo
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Posted by: vox persona on Sep 17, 2007 1:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Being a Christ Follower, it has always sickened me that Bush has co-opted Christianity in his rhetoric, while ignoring the teachings themselves, such as 'Those who take the sword shall perish by the sword', 'The meek shall inherit the Earth', and 'Blessed are the peacemakers'. What scares me is that our evangelical president probably believes the literal interpretations of the Book of Revelation. Here's just a few snippets from that text, especially chapters 9-11. "And the 5th Angel sounded: And I saw a star fall from heaven to Earth. And to him was given the key to the bottomless pit (Osama's caves?)...smoke arose out of the pit....then out of the smoke came locusts on the Earth (terrorist cells?)....commanded to harm only those without the seal of God (infidels?)....In those days men will seek death and will not find it (suicide murderers that realize too late that they're soul is indestructable as they stand there in spirit amongst the carnage as the dark death demons take them to their lovely new home?).....breastplates of iron (flak jackets?)....sound of their wings was like many horses running into battle....tails like scorpions....there were stings in their tails (helicopters?)....Release the four Angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates (Bagdad)....CHAPTER11: (twin towers?) two lampstands standing before the god of the earth (money is the god of the Earth...World TRADE Center)....if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killedin this manner....destroy those who destroy the Earth...."
It goes on and on, but you get the picture, Maybe Bush is trying to self-fulfill the prophecies, I don't put anything past him at this point. He destroyed Iraq and unleashed forces that may not be able to be contained again, short of another iron-fisted Saddam type. So which side in a Muslim civil war do we take? We endorse their death squads by arming them. War is good business, war profiteers are making untold billions, and the military industrial complex has every reason to keep war going forever. There's a lot of blood on a lot of peoples' hands....bad karma, man. Bush tells us we'll understand in 30 or 40 years, how convenient. He created a mess for someone else to clean up, but it is going to get a lot worse before it ever gets better. Pray it doesn't widen into a regional conflict, but then, maybe Bush is counting on it. He ripped the lid off of Pandora's Box, and even Hope is escaping.
Thanks George.
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» RE: All Bush's fault - CHRIST FOLLOWER??
Posted by: scottyrocks
» Point taken
Posted by: vox persona
» RE: All Bush's fault - CHRIST FOLLOWER??
Posted by: Tim Charles
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Posted by: TT5 on Sep 17, 2007 1:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» oil grab! get yours! (while supplies last!)
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
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Posted by: richholland on Sep 17, 2007 3:43 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The dutch remember the liberation from the Nazis by the Anglosaxon and americans. Their bombing of non militairy objects caused death of 4 times the civilians bombed by the Nazi swines.
But for 40 years it was not allowed to discuss this.
During the Vietnam war the European majority of citizens supported the americans.
However since the collapse of communisme in 1989 the majority of brave citizens has the suspiccion that the RICH americans the top families need WAR to get extra money.
It is a pity that the average american citizen still believes that USA is the best place on earth.
1945 eastern europe and western europe.
American soldiers are needed
1954 northern korea and southern korea; USA is needed
1960 northern and southern Vietnam.
USA kills 1000.ooo asians and loses 58.000 young american boys.
USA cannot excist without war....USA cannot excist without cheap commidities.
The tragic is that if you donot have outside war, the rich and powerfull start inside wars;
war on pedofiles....war on smoking marihuana, war on prostitues...in fact it is simple the war on your own citizens.
And i nstead of God and the saints we have Britney Spears showing her pussy...Paris Hilton dancing around..
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» RE: donot blame mr.Bush - PUSSY AND POT
Posted by: scottyrocks
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Posted by: the islander on Sep 17, 2007 5:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Legitimate Targets
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Be more specific, Brunowe
Posted by: scott balogh
» RE: Be more specific, Brunowe
Posted by: brunowe
» The point you omit ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: The point you omit ...
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: The point you omit ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: The point you omit ...
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: The point you omit ...
Posted by: leafsong1
» Legitimate Targets . . . no
Posted by: Knowmad
» It isn't clutter
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: It isn't clutter
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: It isn't clutter
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: It isn't clutter
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: It isn't clutter
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: It isn't clutter
Posted by: leafsong1
» Ass backwards and wrong again
Posted by: leafsong1
» Going AWOL and refusing to serve is a legitimate action for US soldiers!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» IMO this "Legitimate Targets" discussion has collapsed into Farce
Posted by: Aramis
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Posted by: Tim Brown on Sep 17, 2007 5:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: warrior woman on Sep 17, 2007 5:27 AM
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Posted by: PJAW on Sep 17, 2007 5:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tsk tsk, I'm afraid we're seeing just the beginning of the next, huge, human generated shit storm that this planet will be challenged to survive. It's just a damned shame, cuz if we as a species would exert just a little self-control and give a just a little thought to sustainable culture, we could have a pretty nice existence here on Earth for a much longer period of time.
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» Post of the Year Nominee...
Posted by: David V
» RE: Move along, nothing to see here...
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Move along, nothing to see here...
Posted by: borat99
» RE: I'm authoring a book...
Posted by: PJAW
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Posted by: Democritus on Sep 17, 2007 5:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Americans in denial
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Americans in denial
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Americans in denial
Posted by: Democritus
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Posted by: Constitutionalist75 on Sep 17, 2007 6:11 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: SatanicJamboree on Sep 17, 2007 6:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Hanging my head in tearful shame.
Posted by: sgparry
» RE: Hanging my head in tearful shame.
Posted by: OhioPatriot
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Posted by: Knowmad on Sep 17, 2007 7:22 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Everyone agrees that the U.S. soldier is the best-trained fighter on earth"
Judging by friendly fire cases and innocents impacted by U.S. soldiers, I'm not sure you'd get total, or even widespread agreement on this, particularly if you consider psychological fitness a component of the standard of training. Being physically capable and obedient is useless if you 'lose it' and become irrational or go berserk - particularly while 'armed to the teeth' - and conduct a spontaneous rampage of retribution against the innocent, sometimes even your own compatriots and allies.
Keep it up, cheers.
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» RE: What about crazy?
Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» RE: What about crazy?
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: They volunteered, did they not?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: They volunteered, did they not?
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: What about crazy?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: What about crazy?
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: What about crazy?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Re the training
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: e the training
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: e the training
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Drivide and Rule
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
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Posted by: SatanicJamboree on Sep 17, 2007 7:35 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You may have been a decent human being at one time, John, but you're going to hell now.
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» RE: And that idiot McCain...
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: And that idiot McCain...
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: Indigo_Black on Sep 17, 2007 7:44 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Money was and is the objective of the invasion of Iraq. It has been demonstrated many times here on AlterNet that the bottom line of this war was to enrich a small minority of people wealth beyond 99.99% of humanity.
This minute minority of the human race are sociopaths as Boehner's comments (as well as Barbara Bush's comments after Katrina) clearly demonstrate. They could not care less how many people are killed as long as the money flows
It is sad, truly sad, that no one with any power in government had the backbone to stop the country from turning into a fascist state run by robber barons of the worst sort.
I believe the United States is beyond redemption at this point.
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Posted by: veive on Sep 17, 2007 8:08 AM
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Posted by: SatanicJamboree on Sep 17, 2007 8:31 AM
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» RE: By the way, Joshua...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: By the way, Joshua...
Posted by: cheressemm
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Posted by: Gisele on Sep 17, 2007 9:04 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the MSM propaganda machine was remotely interested in truth, this article would be a national headline...unfortunately, the only ones to read it will be those of us who haunt Alternet's halls.
Thank you for the time and consideration of facts it would have taken to write this one.
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» RE: Joshua...
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» VZEQICVA, Gisele, Satanic ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on Sep 17, 2007 9:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All the violence in Iraq was accounted for before we invaded.
We knew how their people would react,sorry Dick it was'nt flowers and you knew it,and sent out the orders that would help fire up the populace. Niether Field Command nor the Command generals knew the total plan. Had they, they probably would have resigned before the campagin ever started. 9/11 was used as the 'blinders' that were put on the people,the military, and the underinformed World to keep us off balance while the slaughter went on. Since we were'nt actually doing the 'majority' of the killing,we could claim our hands to be clean of theb death and destructions.But I content,when you incite the kinds of violence that's being dumped on the people of Iraq,then you ARE guilty of ordering acts of Genocide. This crap plays out like an old 'Chicago Gangster movie', written by fools and directed by idiots.
If we're truly horrified by what's been done to the people of Iraq,for the last 16 years,then we'll nullify the Congress, Void the Executive Branch and begin educating the Military and Police that the folks that cut their working orders should be the ones they protect US FROM. As it is now,our children sent to fight and die are doing so to help create more death and destruction. If we want the insane killings of people worldwide to stop. We,or more correctly our Gov't, has to stop advancing Forign Policies that make us appear to be Satan.
The truth of Bush's 'Shock and Awe' campaign is that is meant to do that to us,the ones who watch. We can no longer just watch,we must act to change.
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Posted by: willymack on Sep 17, 2007 9:58 AM
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Posted by: grn1 on Sep 17, 2007 10:43 AM
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Posted by: eosrk on Sep 17, 2007 11:05 AM
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Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Sep 17, 2007 11:15 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Repeatedly referencing our Founding Fathers and heritage and history while of course Washington and Jefferson and Franklin and Adams would all sit up in their coffins and puke their guts out if they knew the stupidity and complete disregard for all of their advice and admonitions as to both Civil Liberties, government abuses and misuse of our military we see today, were they alive..
In other words if you think this is genocide, just wait and see how many deaths are to come for the sake of spreading democracy through the use of our military..
Iraq is a horror but it's just the pre-game show..
To what's coming...
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Posted by: surfreality on Sep 17, 2007 11:16 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is rarely discussed. A good question for the candidates: How many Iraqi civilians are dead as a result of the invasion? The follow up: How much more secure are we as a result? And the follow, follow up: At what point does the "collateral damage" become counterproductive to American interests?
I wonder how many more people we will have to kill before our gas station is finally ready,
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» RE: THanks JH for getting the ball rolling
Posted by: katyalynn
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Sep 17, 2007 11:33 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's a good example of a Digged piece: Caesar and Bush
Note that Petraeus is now arming Sunnis, Kurds and Shias - after giving them a little police badge, that is, so he can say he isn't 'arming the tribes'. Now that the air war is being ramped up in an effort to reduce the 'US casualties' reported in the press, the death rate among Iraqis will go even higher.
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Posted by: BlueBerry PickN on Sep 17, 2007 2:06 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've said it BEFORE, I'll say it AGAIN.
if you don't know what went HORRIFICALLY wrong in Rwanda...
You're in NO POSITION to argue with Busheviks or PNAC stooges that a military solution is the ONLY SOLUTION to Afghanistan & Iraq...
nations & cultures THAT AMERICANS BROKE in a petroleum hostage taking...
Don't call yourself a PROGRESSIVE or a realist unless you've the cojones to watch this PBS documentary...
"Ghosts of Rwanda": 100 days...
Toronto International Film Festival rolls out autobiographical documentary: "Shake Hands With The Devil"
Spread Love...
... but wear the Glove!
BlueBerry Pick'n
can be found @
ThisCanadian
~~~
We, two, form a Multitude ~ Ovid.
~~~
"Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced"
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Posted by: unity1 on Sep 17, 2007 2:33 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1 million + human beings, children, women and men, all living lives like YOU Americans now dead - so your fat arses can drive your SUVs to the liquor store !! so your pentagon can keep its military fed and pointed at the rest of the world
so many excuses as to why this number is not really that high - it all misses the point - and what about the death toll in that other illegal invasion Afghanistan? No mention of how many hundreds of thousands of innocents killed - lets get real - murdered/slaughtered in that ongoing war.
shame on all of you - this is YOUR government - showing its true colors at last, how will you spin this so that these lives become inconsequential to your day to day reality?
and what of the rest of the world - what of the institutions put in place to stop such things - what of other world leaders, and world citizens - their voices all impotent, in the face of what is rightly an enthnic cleansing - they are all quite in the face of Americas self proclaimed super power - and what of your billionaire politicians - who care little for you and less for any non american?
Some superpower - shame on all of you - shame on all of us
BTW where are the death tolls for Palestinians ? those who america denies existence to via arming its protege Israel?
You Americans have a lot to wake up to - 300 million of you and none of you can stop your government because the political will to do so is not present - instead you support with your silence the murder and ethnic cleansing of an entire nation and what of the over 4 million who have had the means to flee their homeland? what of these people
Osma is right, you are the great Satan - stupid dumbed down people who quibble over death tolls as if nothing matters but being right - shame on all of you
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» RE: Shame on YOU unity1
Posted by: Clockwise Cat
» RE: Shame on YOU unity1
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Shame on YOU unity1
Posted by: Clockwise Cat
» RE: Shame on YOU unity1
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Shame on YOU unity1
Posted by: blitzmesser
Comments are closed-
Posted by: unity1 on Sep 17, 2007 2:51 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
YOU no more live in a democracy than anyone in the west does - this is obvious - the writing has been on the wall for such a long time - just as long as the denial
YOU are all to blame for the state of your nation you are the PEOPLE - 280 odd million of you and yet you turn out in your millions to watch sport, to watch so called stars, ordinary people who act and get paid obscene amounts of money for doing so - you turn out for money you fawn over people with money and power - you fight amongst yourselves over everything and kill each other with monotonous regularity - your history is full of the dead murdered carcasses of indigenous, your history is full of the dead nuked carcasses of the innocent Japaneses, the history of your nation is not great it is evil it is a history of covert meddling and death and now the world and you are waking up to see the truth of it at the expense of other peoples lives
shame on all of you
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» RE: stop blaming the politicans and LOOK at yourselves
Posted by: mountainsrock
» RE: stop blaming the politicans and LOOK at yourselves
Posted by: unity1
» RE: stop blaming the politicans and LOOK at yourselves
Posted by: Clockwise Cat
» RE: stop blaming the politicans and LOOK at yourselves
Posted by: blitzmesser
» I hate politicans... AND soliders too
Posted by: IPF
Comments are closed-
Posted by: chlamor on Sep 17, 2007 3:37 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is no plate
The plate is gone
The spoon is gone
The food is gone
The hand is gone
The table is gone
The neighbors are gone
The mind is gone
The roof is gone
The taste is gone
The boy is gone
The girl’s arm is gone
The tears are gone
The eyes are gone
The road is gone
The hope is gone
The seasons are gone
The memories are gone
The reasons are gone
The water is gone
The future is gone
The songs are gone
The store is gone
The school is gone
The lights are gone
The “football$” are gone
The screaming is gone
The dreams are gone
The doctor is gone
The past is gone
The urgency is gone
The cradle is gone
The oil is gone
The blood is gone
The treasure is gone
The bridge is gone
The children are gone
The future is gone
The children are gone
The future is gone
The sky is gone.
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» RE: Time for the Iraqis to step up to the plate
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Time for the Iraqis to step up to the plate
Posted by: OhioPatriot
» RE: Time for the Iraqis to step up to the plate
Posted by: Betrayus
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Clockwise Cat on Sep 17, 2007 7:26 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WAKE THE HELL UP! WE LIVE IN A BURGEONING FASCIST REGIME!
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Posted by: OhioPatriot on Sep 17, 2007 8:09 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Being given an opinion is a sorry substitution for having one.
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» Denial doesn't help anybody ....
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Denial doesn't help anybody ....
Posted by: OhioPatriot
» RE: Denial doesn't help anybody ....
Posted by: mjglow
» RE: Denial doesn't help anybody ....
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Denial doesn't help anybody ....
Posted by: blitzmesser
Comments are closed-
Posted by: raywigton on Sep 17, 2007 9:56 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is and always was about the oil. We rushed to guard the oil wells and pipelines, ignorantly thinking that Sad damn who's insane would burn his own like he did Kuwait's. That is just plain stupid. Meanwhile munitions depot's are left abandoned, 5000 year old treasures are looted from the national museum and the police and military are essentially disbanded. On the bright side, the oil kept flowing.
How can you give a statistical margin of error when you don't have reliable statistics? You can't. I'm not doubting the numbers, I think it's over 1 million so far that bush has murdered. I don't think that a survey that leaves out the most violent provinces because they are too dangerous to survey make a very valid result. But -- 1 million or 1.2 million -- doesn't matter, -- the oil is still flowing.
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Posted by: Lector on Sep 17, 2007 11:25 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: Tim Charles on Sep 17, 2007 11:36 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Everyone agrees that the U.S. soldier is the best-trained fighter on earth, so it's somewhat bizarre that war supporters believe their shots rarely hit anybody."
Many US liberals make the mistake of subconsciously believing what they all hear growing up, that the US is the best at everything, and part of this stays with them and clouds their judgement.
Nobody outside the US (I'm Australian) regards the US military as the "best trained fighters on earth". The US actually has one of the worst records worldwide for making mistakes that kill innocent people; misplaced bombs, nervous soldiers murdering innocent people etc.etc... Just because the US has more military strength then anyone else, does not mean they are the most efficient by any means.
Having said all that, the point that was trying to be made in the article is still valid. I just don't agree with the example given to prove its worth. :)
Tim
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» I have to support my countryman here
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: I have to support my countryman here......facts
Posted by: Captainmagic
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jeffrey Levy on Sep 18, 2007 10:17 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When you mentioned the great crimes of the century, you forgot to mention that the US killed between one and three million people during its invasion of Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. The US also helped Savimbi, Mobutu and Suharto kill millions of people, possibly as many as 2.5 to 3 million. We have lots more blood on our hands, too, that would require volumes to review.
Anyway, keep up the good work. The facts are saddening, but it's a pleasure to see people with the guts to tell the truth.
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Posted by: Betrayus on Sep 18, 2007 11:11 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That 1.2 Million figure...Is just a plain lie. There should not be a discussion of this subject, until you can find a creditable source.
For God's sake... "Rosie" only thinks there has been 600K plus...and this number is exaggerated by 6x-8x.
What a joke.
Peace!
Dan
Iraq Photo Essay For September 2007
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» RE: Some Study...
Posted by: mjglow
» RE: Some Study...
Posted by: OhioPatriot
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Betrayus on Sep 18, 2007 11:51 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And thats reality in the 21 century. Deal with it and show some 'Intellectual Honesty' instead of spewing anti-war crap 24/7.
We are in a war and that's it...and will be for the next 20+years or so. REALITY. Thats it...no other options on the table...so quit lying to yourself and acting like we have other options then just killing all these pricks.
Third 9/11 Jihadist Video Calls For Attacks on West
September 18th, 2007
Media reports state that a third 9/11 Jihadist video, reportedly by Al Qaeda, has been released via Islamist web sites today, calling for Jihadist terror acts on the West to be a daily occurrence and calling for “acts of mass extermination”.
AFP reports that the video “features a montage of images of the burning World Trade Center towers and scenes from Islamist training camps.”
AFP reports that a voiceover on the video states:
“We must take Islamist terrorism to Western countries so that it becomes a normal part of life like natural disasters” and “[i]n that way, we will have acts of mass extermination in which people will feel that their affluence also brings death… and we will have created a balance of deterrence between us and them”.
AKI reports that the new video begins with a message from Abu Yahya al-Libi, the leader of al-Qaeda in Afghanistan. On the new video, Al-Libi is reported to praise the role of Al Qaeda in defending the principles of Islam
AKI reports that the new video includes a montage of audio and video footage of previous messages Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri on the rationale behind the 9/11 attacks. AFP reports that the video also includes a clip by Mustafa Abu Al-Yazid, also known as Sheikh Said, the group’s commander in Afghanistan.
AKI reports that:
“[a] voice on the video also gives an account of the war in Chechnya, blames the West for having committed a mass extermination and calls for revenge for this action. Also included is footage of interviews carried out by the Arab satellite TV network, Al Jazeera, with university professors,
Arab commentators and editor of the London-based al-Quds al-Arabi newspaper. The entire video describes various events that occured before the 9/11 attacks, in particular the conflict in Chechnya, and tries to explain the reasons behind the terror attacks.”
Links With Sources Documented
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» "War on Terror" is PHONY (So-called "Al-Qaeda" was Created by CIA & House of Saud)
Posted by: Aramis
» RE: This Is what all you pacifist are voting for...
Posted by: mjglow
» Please join us in the Real World
Posted by: leafsong1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: IPF on Sep 18, 2007 10:20 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Sep 19, 2007 5:34 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Democraps that continue to stand by while all this continues to go on are just as responsible and therein lies part of this problem.
Shrub has allowed everyone to be painted into an essential corner of denial, because there is enough blood to go around to soak everyones hands.
In addition, there is little shared sacrifice for this fiasco by most Americans. To be honest, it has affected my life very little on a day to day basis except for the outrage I feel everyday. I could easily go about my business and not know anything of importance was going on.
It has been said before, but the only thing that would stop this sociopathic behavior by the Shrubites is a DRAFT. After that the Shrubites should be tried, convicted, and, in essence, given the Saddam treatment.
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» RE: And unless...
Posted by: mjglow
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Jdeese1 on Sep 20, 2007 12:13 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let the military accomplish the objectives and not just stand around as moving targets. The kooky left want so much to have a failure in Iraq and are irritated that it is not happening.
You want the troops home soon? Let them take down the enemy as they are trained. We'll welcome them home in a month and there will be less people dead in the end.
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» Bizarre
Posted by: leafsong1
Comments are closed-
Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com on Sep 26, 2007 4:12 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This occupation was done in the name of finding "illegal" weapons of "mass destruction" (Iraq never had THIS much firepower), chemical weapons (still have that vial, Colin Powell?), and to remove Hussein (mission accomplished!)
All we have accomplished is unchecked violence, created a puppet government bereft of power, whole Baghdad neighborhoods turned into Warsaw ghettoes, Blackwater "security" guards (translation: armed thugs) shooting at anything that moved, daily air strikes, a polluted landscape where citizens have limited access to drinking water and health care-a health crisis of monumental proportions, historical artifacts destroyed and looted; and an ever-increasing cost to pay for this "war."
Let freedom ring!
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Posted by: Michael Boldin on Sep 17, 2007 12:12 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Really, when is enough killing going to be enough? Will these people ever have their thirst quenched for power, profits and war? Sometimes, I think not....
Throwing away the lives of people - and ignoring the reality of the massive numbers is totally repugnant to the ideals of a free society....what America is supposed to be.
Aggressive war was once punished as a war crime back at the Nuremburg trials. I also believe that this war of aggression holds some very serious moral and legal implications for all those involved.
It's time for this madness - the death and destruction - the murder of innocents - to come to an end.
Well, if you'd like, read on for more.
"Collateral Damage is Murder" - click here
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» RE: But....but....but....
Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com
Comments are closed-
Posted by: The Old Hippie on Sep 17, 2007 1:03 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
But is it really too late to turn it around? I’m sure most all of us really want that to not be the case. But - I honestly don’t know if it’s not already too late. The fact that the evidence of the reality of the un-hidden criminal sociopathic nature of this administration’s pro-corporate agenda of profits-over-even-life-&-nation, has been so well proven, and so in-our-faces for so long, that the denial of it is beyond any possible sane rationality. The fact that there has been no revolt, and so far no real attempted stopping of the “allowing” by the citizenry of my nation, in the face of the overwhelming evidence of the ongoing destruction caused by the few, over the many, that I think the continued allowing, and the self-destructive denial, has become, not only a disgrace, it has maybe become pathological. I admit it’s possibility scares the hell out of me.
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» RE: Ain't Gonna Happen. . .
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: brunowe on Sep 17, 2007 1:04 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Further, assuming 672,000 Iraqis killed from Coalition violence (56% of 1.2 million, drawing the 56% from the article you referenced), the number doesn't break down how many were civilians and how many were legitimate targets. Given the large percentage of civilians who die in modern war (as you pointed out) and the fact that US forces use airstrikes and recon-by-fire (essentially, firepower as a counter-insurgency strategy), I'm sure a large chunk of that was civilians.
Surely these numbers are appalling enough without a deeply flawed analogy to crimes of genocide.
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» What comparison?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: What comparison?
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: What comparison?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Genocide is different
Posted by: brunowe
» "There are two kinds of people in the world,
Posted by: particle
» RE: Genocide is different
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Genocidal opportunities are still abundant
Posted by: mgloraine
» RE: Genocidal opportunities are still abundant
Posted by: particle
» RE: What comparison?
Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: Sensational Headlines...
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Sensational Headlines...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: What comparison?
Posted by: OhioPatriot
» What legitimate targets? This is an illegitimate war.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» I don't claim it's a legitimate war.
Posted by: brunowe
» Have you not been paying attention to the US-sponsored ethnic cleansing?
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» You don't make your case.
Posted by: brunowe
» Ethnic cleansing and genocide: the legal definition
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» RE: thnic cleansing and genocide: the legal definition
Posted by: brunowe
» Deliberate partition, ethnic cleansing and genocide.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Neocon Sickness
Posted by: LeftCoastProgressive
» RE: You don't make your case.
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: I don't claim it's a legitimate war.
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: I don't claim it's a legitimate war.
Posted by: brunowe
» Semantics.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» No, you're just dishonest with language.
Posted by: brunowe
» Sorry, I guess that's just a million 'collateral damages' - unintended, no doubt.
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» Yes. And if dubbing any resistance or arab/muslim nationalists as terrorist....
Posted by: justaguy
» Sorry, I haven't actually accused Ahmadinejad of advocating genocide.
Posted by: brunowe
» I wasn't specifically referring to you.
Posted by: justaguy
» It doesn't have to be anything of the kind
Posted by: brunowe
» Non sequitur.
Posted by: justaguy
» Genocide is HAPPENING. What You Address is Denial and Cartoon Fizz
Posted by: Aramis
» RE: It doesn't have to be anything of the kind
Posted by: leafsong1
» If it's about pushing them onto reservations, then its ethnic cleansing
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: If it's about pushing them onto reservations, then its ethnic cleansing
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: No, you're just dishonest with language.
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: No, you're just dishonest with language.
Posted by: blitzmesser
» RE: I don't claim it's a legitimate war.
Posted by: leafsong1
» It is deliberate genocide
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: It is deliberate genocide
Posted by: blitzmesser
Comments are closed-
Posted by: nzo on Sep 17, 2007 1:28 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Do you imagine for one second that if Bush, Cheyney et al were subjected to the pain of even one child, one mother, one father who had their limbs torn off by shrapnel, that they would continue to do what they are doing?
If they actually felt this pain, this stupid war, and all wars, would end instantly. Not tomorrow, a week or year from now, but instantly!
You bet they would stop.
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» RE: Psychopaths are incapable of feeling another's pain
Posted by: Dale Dressler
» This killing reflects upon all human beings
Posted by: Tomover
» RE: You get the government you deserve?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: You get the government you deserve?
Posted by: nzo
Comments are closed-
Posted by: vox persona on Sep 17, 2007 1:29 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Being a Christ Follower, it has always sickened me that Bush has co-opted Christianity in his rhetoric, while ignoring the teachings themselves, such as 'Those who take the sword shall perish by the sword', 'The meek shall inherit the Earth', and 'Blessed are the peacemakers'. What scares me is that our evangelical president probably believes the literal interpretations of the Book of Revelation. Here's just a few snippets from that text, especially chapters 9-11. "And the 5th Angel sounded: And I saw a star fall from heaven to Earth. And to him was given the key to the bottomless pit (Osama's caves?)...smoke arose out of the pit....then out of the smoke came locusts on the Earth (terrorist cells?)....commanded to harm only those without the seal of God (infidels?)....In those days men will seek death and will not find it (suicide murderers that realize too late that they're soul is indestructable as they stand there in spirit amongst the carnage as the dark death demons take them to their lovely new home?).....breastplates of iron (flak jackets?)....sound of their wings was like many horses running into battle....tails like scorpions....there were stings in their tails (helicopters?)....Release the four Angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates (Bagdad)....CHAPTER11: (twin towers?) two lampstands standing before the god of the earth (money is the god of the Earth...World TRADE Center)....if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killedin this manner....destroy those who destroy the Earth...."
It goes on and on, but you get the picture, Maybe Bush is trying to self-fulfill the prophecies, I don't put anything past him at this point. He destroyed Iraq and unleashed forces that may not be able to be contained again, short of another iron-fisted Saddam type. So which side in a Muslim civil war do we take? We endorse their death squads by arming them. War is good business, war profiteers are making untold billions, and the military industrial complex has every reason to keep war going forever. There's a lot of blood on a lot of peoples' hands....bad karma, man. Bush tells us we'll understand in 30 or 40 years, how convenient. He created a mess for someone else to clean up, but it is going to get a lot worse before it ever gets better. Pray it doesn't widen into a regional conflict, but then, maybe Bush is counting on it. He ripped the lid off of Pandora's Box, and even Hope is escaping.
Thanks George.
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» RE: All Bush's fault - CHRIST FOLLOWER??
Posted by: scottyrocks
» Point taken
Posted by: vox persona
» RE: All Bush's fault - CHRIST FOLLOWER??
Posted by: Tim Charles
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Posted by: TT5 on Sep 17, 2007 1:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» oil grab! get yours! (while supplies last!)
Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
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Comments are closed-
Comments are closed-
Posted by: richholland on Sep 17, 2007 3:43 AM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The dutch remember the liberation from the Nazis by the Anglosaxon and americans. Their bombing of non militairy objects caused death of 4 times the civilians bombed by the Nazi swines.
But for 40 years it was not allowed to discuss this.
During the Vietnam war the European majority of citizens supported the americans.
However since the collapse of communisme in 1989 the majority of brave citizens has the suspiccion that the RICH americans the top families need WAR to get extra money.
It is a pity that the average american citizen still believes that USA is the best place on earth.
1945 eastern europe and western europe.
American soldiers are needed
1954 northern korea and southern korea; USA is needed
1960 northern and southern Vietnam.
USA kills 1000.ooo asians and loses 58.000 young american boys.
USA cannot excist without war....USA cannot excist without cheap commidities.
The tragic is that if you donot have outside war, the rich and powerfull start inside wars;
war on pedofiles....war on smoking marihuana, war on prostitues...in fact it is simple the war on your own citizens.
And i nstead of God and the saints we have Britney Spears showing her pussy...Paris Hilton dancing around..
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» RE: donot blame mr.Bush - PUSSY AND POT
Posted by: scottyrocks
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Posted by: the islander on Sep 17, 2007 5:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Legitimate Targets
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: Be more specific, Brunowe
Posted by: scott balogh
» RE: Be more specific, Brunowe
Posted by: brunowe
» The point you omit ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: The point you omit ...
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: The point you omit ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: The point you omit ...
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: The point you omit ...
Posted by: leafsong1
» Legitimate Targets . . . no
Posted by: Knowmad
» It isn't clutter
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: It isn't clutter
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: It isn't clutter
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: It isn't clutter
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: It isn't clutter
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: It isn't clutter
Posted by: leafsong1
» Ass backwards and wrong again
Posted by: leafsong1
» Going AWOL and refusing to serve is a legitimate action for US soldiers!
Posted by: thoughtcriminal
» IMO this "Legitimate Targets" discussion has collapsed into Farce
Posted by: Aramis
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Tim Brown on Sep 17, 2007 5:13 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: warrior woman on Sep 17, 2007 5:27 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: PJAW on Sep 17, 2007 5:42 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Tsk tsk, I'm afraid we're seeing just the beginning of the next, huge, human generated shit storm that this planet will be challenged to survive. It's just a damned shame, cuz if we as a species would exert just a little self-control and give a just a little thought to sustainable culture, we could have a pretty nice existence here on Earth for a much longer period of time.
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» Post of the Year Nominee...
Posted by: David V
» RE: Move along, nothing to see here...
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: Move along, nothing to see here...
Posted by: borat99
» RE: I'm authoring a book...
Posted by: PJAW
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Democritus on Sep 17, 2007 5:53 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Americans in denial
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Americans in denial
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Americans in denial
Posted by: Democritus
Comments are closed-
Posted by: Constitutionalist75 on Sep 17, 2007 6:11 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: SatanicJamboree on Sep 17, 2007 6:51 AM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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» RE: Hanging my head in tearful shame.
Posted by: sgparry
» RE: Hanging my head in tearful shame.
Posted by: OhioPatriot
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Posted by: Knowmad on Sep 17, 2007 7:22 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Everyone agrees that the U.S. soldier is the best-trained fighter on earth"
Judging by friendly fire cases and innocents impacted by U.S. soldiers, I'm not sure you'd get total, or even widespread agreement on this, particularly if you consider psychological fitness a component of the standard of training. Being physically capable and obedient is useless if you 'lose it' and become irrational or go berserk - particularly while 'armed to the teeth' - and conduct a spontaneous rampage of retribution against the innocent, sometimes even your own compatriots and allies.
Keep it up, cheers.
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» RE: What about crazy?
Posted by: SatanicJamboree
» RE: What about crazy?
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: They volunteered, did they not?
Posted by: Cathyc
» RE: They volunteered, did they not?
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: What about crazy?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: What about crazy?
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: What about crazy?
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» Re the training
Posted by: brunowe
» RE: e the training
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: e the training
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Drivide and Rule
Posted by: Ydotheyhateus
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Posted by: SatanicJamboree on Sep 17, 2007 7:35 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You may have been a decent human being at one time, John, but you're going to hell now.
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» RE: And that idiot McCain...
Posted by: CatDad
» RE: And that idiot McCain...
Posted by: VZEQICVA
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Posted by: Indigo_Black on Sep 17, 2007 7:44 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Money was and is the objective of the invasion of Iraq. It has been demonstrated many times here on AlterNet that the bottom line of this war was to enrich a small minority of people wealth beyond 99.99% of humanity.
This minute minority of the human race are sociopaths as Boehner's comments (as well as Barbara Bush's comments after Katrina) clearly demonstrate. They could not care less how many people are killed as long as the money flows
It is sad, truly sad, that no one with any power in government had the backbone to stop the country from turning into a fascist state run by robber barons of the worst sort.
I believe the United States is beyond redemption at this point.
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Posted by: veive on Sep 17, 2007 8:08 AM
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Posted by: SatanicJamboree on Sep 17, 2007 8:31 AM
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» RE: By the way, Joshua...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: By the way, Joshua...
Posted by: cheressemm
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Posted by: Gisele on Sep 17, 2007 9:04 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
If the MSM propaganda machine was remotely interested in truth, this article would be a national headline...unfortunately, the only ones to read it will be those of us who haunt Alternet's halls.
Thank you for the time and consideration of facts it would have taken to write this one.
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» RE: Joshua...
Posted by: VZEQICVA
» VZEQICVA, Gisele, Satanic ...
Posted by: Joshua Holland
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Posted by: jeffrey7 on Sep 17, 2007 9:45 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
All the violence in Iraq was accounted for before we invaded.
We knew how their people would react,sorry Dick it was'nt flowers and you knew it,and sent out the orders that would help fire up the populace. Niether Field Command nor the Command generals knew the total plan. Had they, they probably would have resigned before the campagin ever started. 9/11 was used as the 'blinders' that were put on the people,the military, and the underinformed World to keep us off balance while the slaughter went on. Since we were'nt actually doing the 'majority' of the killing,we could claim our hands to be clean of theb death and destructions.But I content,when you incite the kinds of violence that's being dumped on the people of Iraq,then you ARE guilty of ordering acts of Genocide. This crap plays out like an old 'Chicago Gangster movie', written by fools and directed by idiots.
If we're truly horrified by what's been done to the people of Iraq,for the last 16 years,then we'll nullify the Congress, Void the Executive Branch and begin educating the Military and Police that the folks that cut their working orders should be the ones they protect US FROM. As it is now,our children sent to fight and die are doing so to help create more death and destruction. If we want the insane killings of people worldwide to stop. We,or more correctly our Gov't, has to stop advancing Forign Policies that make us appear to be Satan.
The truth of Bush's 'Shock and Awe' campaign is that is meant to do that to us,the ones who watch. We can no longer just watch,we must act to change.
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Posted by: willymack on Sep 17, 2007 9:58 AM
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Posted by: grn1 on Sep 17, 2007 10:43 AM
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Posted by: eosrk on Sep 17, 2007 11:05 AM
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Posted by: TJ-stars4peace on Sep 17, 2007 11:15 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Repeatedly referencing our Founding Fathers and heritage and history while of course Washington and Jefferson and Franklin and Adams would all sit up in their coffins and puke their guts out if they knew the stupidity and complete disregard for all of their advice and admonitions as to both Civil Liberties, government abuses and misuse of our military we see today, were they alive..
In other words if you think this is genocide, just wait and see how many deaths are to come for the sake of spreading democracy through the use of our military..
Iraq is a horror but it's just the pre-game show..
To what's coming...
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Posted by: surfreality on Sep 17, 2007 11:16 AM
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It is rarely discussed. A good question for the candidates: How many Iraqi civilians are dead as a result of the invasion? The follow up: How much more secure are we as a result? And the follow, follow up: At what point does the "collateral damage" become counterproductive to American interests?
I wonder how many more people we will have to kill before our gas station is finally ready,
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» RE: THanks JH for getting the ball rolling
Posted by: katyalynn
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Posted by: thoughtcriminal on Sep 17, 2007 11:33 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Here's a good example of a Digged piece: Caesar and Bush
Note that Petraeus is now arming Sunnis, Kurds and Shias - after giving them a little police badge, that is, so he can say he isn't 'arming the tribes'. Now that the air war is being ramped up in an effort to reduce the 'US casualties' reported in the press, the death rate among Iraqis will go even higher.
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Posted by: BlueBerry PickN on Sep 17, 2007 2:06 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I've said it BEFORE, I'll say it AGAIN.
if you don't know what went HORRIFICALLY wrong in Rwanda...
You're in NO POSITION to argue with Busheviks or PNAC stooges that a military solution is the ONLY SOLUTION to Afghanistan & Iraq...
nations & cultures THAT AMERICANS BROKE in a petroleum hostage taking...
Don't call yourself a PROGRESSIVE or a realist unless you've the cojones to watch this PBS documentary...
"Ghosts of Rwanda": 100 days...
Toronto International Film Festival rolls out autobiographical documentary: "Shake Hands With The Devil"
Spread Love...
... but wear the Glove!
BlueBerry Pick'n
can be found @
ThisCanadian
~~~
We, two, form a Multitude ~ Ovid.
~~~
"Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced"
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Posted by: unity1 on Sep 17, 2007 2:33 PM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
1 million + human beings, children, women and men, all living lives like YOU Americans now dead - so your fat arses can drive your SUVs to the liquor store !! so your pentagon can keep its military fed and pointed at the rest of the world
so many excuses as to why this number is not really that high - it all misses the point - and what about the death toll in that other illegal invasion Afghanistan? No mention of how many hundreds of thousands of innocents killed - lets get real - murdered/slaughtered in that ongoing war.
shame on all of you - this is YOUR government - showing its true colors at last, how will you spin this so that these lives become inconsequential to your day to day reality?
and what of the rest of the world - what of the institutions put in place to stop such things - what of other world leaders, and world citizens - their voices all impotent, in the face of what is rightly an enthnic cleansing - they are all quite in the face of Americas self proclaimed super power - and what of your billionaire politicians - who care little for you and less for any non american?
Some superpower - shame on all of you - shame on all of us
BTW where are the death tolls for Palestinians ? those who america denies existence to via arming its protege Israel?
You Americans have a lot to wake up to - 300 million of you and none of you can stop your government because the political will to do so is not present - instead you support with your silence the murder and ethnic cleansing of an entire nation and what of the over 4 million who have had the means to flee their homeland? what of these people
Osma is right, you are the great Satan - stupid dumbed down people who quibble over death tolls as if nothing matters but being right - shame on all of you
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» RE: Shame on YOU unity1
Posted by: Clockwise Cat
» RE: Shame on YOU unity1
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Shame on YOU unity1
Posted by: Clockwise Cat
» RE: Shame on YOU unity1
Posted by: leafsong1
» RE: Shame on YOU unity1
Posted by: blitzmesser
Comments are closed-
Posted by: unity1 on Sep 17, 2007 2:51 PM
Current rating: 2 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
YOU no more live in a democracy than anyone in the west does - this is obvious - the writing has been on the wall for such a long time - just as long as the denial
YOU are all to blame for the state of your nation you are the PEOPLE - 280 odd million of you and yet you turn out in your millions to watch sport, to watch so called stars, ordinary people who act and get paid obscene amounts of money for doing so - you turn out for money you fawn over people with money and power - you fight amongst yourselves over everything and kill each other with monotonous regularity - your history is full of the dead murdered carcasses of indigenous, your history is full of the dead nuked carcasses of the innocent Japaneses, the history of your nation is not great it is evil it is a history of covert meddling and death and now the world and you are waking up to see the truth of it at the expense of other peoples lives
shame on all of you
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» RE: stop blaming the politicans and LOOK at yourselves
Posted by: mountainsrock
» RE: stop blaming the politicans and LOOK at yourselves
Posted by: unity1
» RE: stop blaming the politicans and LOOK at yourselves
Posted by: Clockwise Cat
» RE: stop blaming the politicans and LOOK at yourselves
Posted by: blitzmesser
» I hate politicans... AND soliders too
Posted by: IPF
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Posted by: chlamor on Sep 17, 2007 3:37 PM
Current rating: 4 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There is no plate
The plate is gone
The spoon is gone
The food is gone
The hand is gone
The table is gone
The neighbors are gone
The mind is gone
The roof is gone
The taste is gone
The boy is gone
The girl’s arm is gone
The tears are gone
The eyes are gone
The road is gone
The hope is gone
The seasons are gone
The memories are gone
The reasons are gone
The water is gone
The future is gone
The songs are gone
The store is gone
The school is gone
The lights are gone
The “football$” are gone
The screaming is gone
The dreams are gone
The doctor is gone
The past is gone
The urgency is gone
The cradle is gone
The oil is gone
The blood is gone
The treasure is gone
The bridge is gone
The children are gone
The future is gone
The children are gone
The future is gone
The sky is gone.
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» RE: Time for the Iraqis to step up to the plate
Posted by: Knowmad
» RE: Time for the Iraqis to step up to the plate
Posted by: OhioPatriot
» RE: Time for the Iraqis to step up to the plate
Posted by: Betrayus
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Posted by: Clockwise Cat on Sep 17, 2007 7:26 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
WAKE THE HELL UP! WE LIVE IN A BURGEONING FASCIST REGIME!
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Posted by: OhioPatriot on Sep 17, 2007 8:09 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Being given an opinion is a sorry substitution for having one.
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» Denial doesn't help anybody ....
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Denial doesn't help anybody ....
Posted by: OhioPatriot
» RE: Denial doesn't help anybody ....
Posted by: mjglow
» RE: Denial doesn't help anybody ....
Posted by: Joshua Holland
» RE: Denial doesn't help anybody ....
Posted by: blitzmesser
Comments are closed-
Posted by: raywigton on Sep 17, 2007 9:56 PM
Current rating: 5 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It is and always was about the oil. We rushed to guard the oil wells and pipelines, ignorantly thinking that Sad damn who's insane would burn his own like he did Kuwait's. That is just plain stupid. Meanwhile munitions depot's are left abandoned, 5000 year old treasures are looted from the national museum and the police and military are essentially disbanded. On the bright side, the oil kept flowing.
How can you give a statistical margin of error when you don't have reliable statistics? You can't. I'm not doubting the numbers, I think it's over 1 million so far that bush has murdered. I don't think that a survey that leaves out the most violent provinces because they are too dangerous to survey make a very valid result. But -- 1 million or 1.2 million -- doesn't matter, -- the oil is still flowing.
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Posted by: Lector on Sep 17, 2007 11:25 PM
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Posted by: Tim Charles on Sep 17, 2007 11:36 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
"Everyone agrees that the U.S. soldier is the best-trained fighter on earth, so it's somewhat bizarre that war supporters believe their shots rarely hit anybody."
Many US liberals make the mistake of subconsciously believing what they all hear growing up, that the US is the best at everything, and part of this stays with them and clouds their judgement.
Nobody outside the US (I'm Australian) regards the US military as the "best trained fighters on earth". The US actually has one of the worst records worldwide for making mistakes that kill innocent people; misplaced bombs, nervous soldiers murdering innocent people etc.etc... Just because the US has more military strength then anyone else, does not mean they are the most efficient by any means.
Having said all that, the point that was trying to be made in the article is still valid. I just don't agree with the example given to prove its worth. :)
Tim
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» I have to support my countryman here
Posted by: HeroesAll
» RE: I have to support my countryman here......facts
Posted by: Captainmagic
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Posted by: Jeffrey Levy on Sep 18, 2007 10:17 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When you mentioned the great crimes of the century, you forgot to mention that the US killed between one and three million people during its invasion of Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia. The US also helped Savimbi, Mobutu and Suharto kill millions of people, possibly as many as 2.5 to 3 million. We have lots more blood on our hands, too, that would require volumes to review.
Anyway, keep up the good work. The facts are saddening, but it's a pleasure to see people with the guts to tell the truth.
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Posted by: Betrayus on Sep 18, 2007 11:11 AM
Current rating: 3 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
That 1.2 Million figure...Is just a plain lie. There should not be a discussion of this subject, until you can find a creditable source.
For God's sake... "Rosie" only thinks there has been 600K plus...and this number is exaggerated by 6x-8x.
What a joke.
Peace!
Dan
Iraq Photo Essay For September 2007
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» RE: Some Study...
Posted by: mjglow
» RE: Some Study...
Posted by: OhioPatriot
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Posted by: Betrayus on Sep 18, 2007 11:51 AM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And thats reality in the 21 century. Deal with it and show some 'Intellectual Honesty' instead of spewing anti-war crap 24/7.
We are in a war and that's it...and will be for the next 20+years or so. REALITY. Thats it...no other options on the table...so quit lying to yourself and acting like we have other options then just killing all these pricks.
Third 9/11 Jihadist Video Calls For Attacks on West
September 18th, 2007
Media reports state that a third 9/11 Jihadist video, reportedly by Al Qaeda, has been released via Islamist web sites today, calling for Jihadist terror acts on the West to be a daily occurrence and calling for “acts of mass extermination”.
AFP reports that the video “features a montage of images of the burning World Trade Center towers and scenes from Islamist training camps.”
AFP reports that a voiceover on the video states:
“We must take Islamist terrorism to Western countries so that it becomes a normal part of life like natural disasters” and “[i]n that way, we will have acts of mass extermination in which people will feel that their affluence also brings death… and we will have created a balance of deterrence between us and them”.
AKI reports that the new video begins with a message from Abu Yahya al-Libi, the leader of al-Qaeda in Afghanistan. On the new video, Al-Libi is reported to praise the role of Al Qaeda in defending the principles of Islam
AKI reports that the new video includes a montage of audio and video footage of previous messages Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri on the rationale behind the 9/11 attacks. AFP reports that the video also includes a clip by Mustafa Abu Al-Yazid, also known as Sheikh Said, the group’s commander in Afghanistan.
AKI reports that:
“[a] voice on the video also gives an account of the war in Chechnya, blames the West for having committed a mass extermination and calls for revenge for this action. Also included is footage of interviews carried out by the Arab satellite TV network, Al Jazeera, with university professors,
Arab commentators and editor of the London-based al-Quds al-Arabi newspaper. The entire video describes various events that occured before the 9/11 attacks, in particular the conflict in Chechnya, and tries to explain the reasons behind the terror attacks.”
Links With Sources Documented
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» "War on Terror" is PHONY (So-called "Al-Qaeda" was Created by CIA & House of Saud)
Posted by: Aramis
» RE: This Is what all you pacifist are voting for...
Posted by: mjglow
» Please join us in the Real World
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: IPF on Sep 18, 2007 10:20 PM
Current rating: 1 [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
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Posted by: ShrubtheWarcriminal on Sep 19, 2007 5:34 AM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The Democraps that continue to stand by while all this continues to go on are just as responsible and therein lies part of this problem.
Shrub has allowed everyone to be painted into an essential corner of denial, because there is enough blood to go around to soak everyones hands.
In addition, there is little shared sacrifice for this fiasco by most Americans. To be honest, it has affected my life very little on a day to day basis except for the outrage I feel everyday. I could easily go about my business and not know anything of importance was going on.
It has been said before, but the only thing that would stop this sociopathic behavior by the Shrubites is a DRAFT. After that the Shrubites should be tried, convicted, and, in essence, given the Saddam treatment.
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» RE: And unless...
Posted by: mjglow
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Posted by: Jdeese1 on Sep 20, 2007 12:13 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Let the military accomplish the objectives and not just stand around as moving targets. The kooky left want so much to have a failure in Iraq and are irritated that it is not happening.
You want the troops home soon? Let them take down the enemy as they are trained. We'll welcome them home in a month and there will be less people dead in the end.
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» Bizarre
Posted by: leafsong1
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Posted by: penobscotdziekuje@yahoo.com on Sep 26, 2007 4:12 PM
Current rating: Not yet rated [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This occupation was done in the name of finding "illegal" weapons of "mass destruction" (Iraq never had THIS much firepower), chemical weapons (still have that vial, Colin Powell?), and to remove Hussein (mission accomplished!)
All we have accomplished is unchecked violence, created a puppet government bereft of power, whole Baghdad neighborhoods turned into Warsaw ghettoes, Blackwater "security" guards (translation: armed thugs) shooting at anything that moved, daily air strikes, a polluted landscape where citizens have limited access to drinking water and health care-a health crisis of monumental proportions, historical artifacts destroyed and looted; and an ever-increasing cost to pay for this "war."
Let freedom ring!
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