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Are Men Threatened by Funny Women?

By Emily Wilson, AlterNet. Posted September 4, 2007.


Comedy isn't just about laughter -- it's about power.

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"Comedy is so unfeminine," says comedian Judy Gold. "It's so powerful. I mean if you think about it, it's you and a microphone and a bunch of people listening to you."

Gold thinks society is still not accustomed to women having that power. "For a woman, it's like, 'That's interesting, keep it to yourself, shut up,'" she says.

Having done standup for 20 years, Gold has spent a lot of time thinking about the role of women in comedy. She shares some of her observations in a new documentary, Making Trouble: Three Generations of Funny Jewish Women, which she introduced at the Jewish Film Festival in San Francisco.

The six comedians featured in the film are Yiddish actress Molly Picon, Fanny Brice of the Ziegfield Follies, vaudeville star Sophie Tucker, Gilda Radner of Saturday Night Live, Joan Rivers, who went from the comedy club circuit in New York City to the red carpet for E!, and playwright Wendy Wasserstein. Gold says these comedians opened doors for her and her colleagues.

"These women were so amazing," she says. "I mean, here it is 2007 and the only real barriers I have are George Bush and the people who like him, but with Sophie Tucker and Molly Picon, look what they did during those times when there were such prescribed roles for women. When women were just supposed to have kids and maybe drink martinis because they were so miserable."

It's important to tell those women's stories, says Lauren Antler, a program manager with the Jewish Women's Archive, which produced the film. "The comedians in the movie show women it's OK to be funny, and you don't have to be a supermodel to be on stage."

A stand-up comic herself, Antler says most people don't expect women to make them laugh, and when she was growing up, boys at school thought her sense of humor just made her weird.

"People think it's an anomaly to be funny and female," she said.

Stand-up comic Beck Krefting, who is working on a dissertation about women and comedy at the University of Maryland, says it's not socially sanctioned for girls to be funny.

"It's OK for guys to crack jokes and be the class clown, but if a girl did it, she was marked the strange one," she says. "That was true in elementary school and high school and then on the stage."

And, Krefting adds, Women comics constantly have to prove they can do their job.

"I feel like I have to work a lot harder to get my audience's respect," she says. "When a guy comes up, there's this assumption that he's funny, but when a woman comes on, there's a very slight but very present skepticism, like, 'Are you sure you're funny?'"

Krefting agrees with Gold that men are uncomfortable with women having the power associated with humor. "When you're the one cracking the joke, you're in control of the conversation," she says. "Men are the ones supposed to be in control."

Rather than being in charge, society gives girls the message that they need to be quiet and well-behaved, says Andi Zeisler, a co-founder and editor at Bitch, a magazine about feminism and pop culture.

"A lot of people are threatened by funny women," she says. "Women are just not socialized to use comedy as power. We're socialized to play nice. It seems weird that comedy should be so subversive in these times, but it still really is."

Zeisler says we need to look at who is defining what is funny. "I always say it's like a Zen koan," she says. "If a woman makes a joke and a man doesn't laugh, is it funny? I think women are said to have a great sense of humor when they laugh at men's jokes, not when they make jokes themselves."

Sense of humor is defined differently for men and women, says Gina Barreca, a professor of English literature and feminist theory at the University of Connecticut.

"If you say to a man, 'I know a woman who has a great sense of humor and you've got to meet her,' they think she weighs 300 pounds and has an eye in the middle of her forehead," Barreca says. "If you say to a woman, 'This guy has a great sense of humor; you have to meet him,' she immediately thinks he's cute and will be a great lover and fun to be around. People think the girls who are desirable don't speak, so the syllogism is don't speak to be desirable."

Barreca, who has written several books on humor, including They Used to Call Me Snow White ... but I Drifted: Women's Strategic Use of Humor, says that means just speaking up can be a subversive act for women.

"Every time a woman gets up and says something besides 'Oh I love how you parallel park,' we are making strides for feminism," she says.

According to Krefting, the subversive nature of comedy makes it powerful. "You're laughing the whole time, but you're still getting it," she says. "It's not didactic or beating you over the head, but it's a way of saying what you want to say and hav[ing] people hear you and maybe even start[ing] to change their minds."

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See more stories tagged with: women, humor, comedy, power, judy gold, gilda radner, molly picon, fanny brice, sophie tucker, joan rivers, wendy wasserstein

Emily Wilson is a freelance writer who also teaches basic skills at City College of San Francisco.

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Power?
Posted by: Logic's Edge on Sep 4, 2007 12:12 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Seems like everything is about power or fear if you're a modern feminist.

What a sad way to view the world.

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» RE: Power? Posted by: chomsky
» RE: Power? Posted by: cordas
» RE: Power? Posted by: Logic's Edge
» No, it's not sad Posted by: Beck
» RE: No, it's not sad Posted by: maestra
» no. they aren't. Posted by: KaptainSpiffy
» RE: Power? Posted by: VannaLaRoche
» RE: Power? Posted by: MAD
» RE: Power? Posted by: maestra
Oh grow up...
Posted by: cordas on Sep 4, 2007 1:12 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
There are a load of extremely funny female comedians over here in the UK that do the circuit, and the vast majority of them don't see that there is power battle between men and women.

There are also a load of unfunny ones, most of whom do see the power battle so spend their entire act trying to belittle men.. Now if they where white comedians talking about blacks they would be deemed racist, if they where men talking about women they would be sexist, if they where straight talking about gays they would be homophobes.... but no they are women talking about men so supposedly thats ok.

Of course comedy should push the boundaries, but I for one am getting rather bored of the oh woe poor are us females who just want to bash men.... take the mickey fine, just do it with a sense of humour, and try not to take yourself to seriously at the same time.

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» It IS about power Posted by: hagwind
» RE: It IS about power Posted by: cordas
» RE: Oh grow up... Posted by: maestra
» RE: Oh grow up... Posted by: ezilla
» RE: Oh grow up... Posted by: CCox
I like funny women
Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line on Sep 4, 2007 3:44 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I tend to go for women who have a twisted sense of humor and can make me laugh as much as I can make them laugh... This article is in my opinion a waste of space. No one wants a boring mate....

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» Me too, but ... Posted by: LMNOP
» RE: Me too, but ... Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» RE: Me too, but ... Posted by: Joe
» RE: I like funny women Posted by: hagwind
» I don't... Posted by: kiel
A curious question
Posted by: talkville on Sep 4, 2007 4:00 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's interesting that, especially when issues of power are concerned, that the issues regarding women are reduced and restricted to male-female relations so often. It definitely is a significant aspect or dimension no doubt; but it's hardly the whole story.

Indeed, these are times that men AND women are rapidly gaining more equal footing in society, in culture, in economics and in politics. On the one hand, one can be very sure that males are threatened by women's comedy; yet, I'd venture to say that many women are also threatened by some of this comedy! From funny to deadly serious, the topics chosen also matter. And when the Will to Power is involved, as it inevitably always does, women as well as men are also becoming more roughly equal.

Struggle is part of any endeavor, including Comedy (that other side of Tragedy). So, if someone is a woman comic, just be funny and let those threatened be threatened. I was disappointed to not run across another great name in the article: Sarah Silverman. I happen to be male, and I thoroughly enjoy her dastardly threatening jibes! But, PLEASE, not ONLY "man-jokes"! There's a bigger world out there to conquer!

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» Sarah Silverman Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Sarah Silverman Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Sarah Silverman Posted by: VZEQICVA
» RE: Sarah Silverman Posted by: VZEQICVA
» Give her about 5-7 years... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Sarah Silverman Posted by: mviscid
» No.. thats not satire. Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: No.. thats not satire. Posted by: mviscid
» RE: Sarah Silverman Posted by: jak
» RE: Sarah Silverman Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: Sarah Silverman Posted by: talkville
» RE: Sarah Silverman Posted by: Grousefeather
» RE: A curious question Posted by: Logic's Edge
» The evident answer Posted by: ekipnrut
» RE: A curious question Posted by: VannaLaRoche
What else threatens me?
Posted by: Tefech on Sep 4, 2007 4:25 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I have tried to be open to and to understand Feminism as it has evolved over the years into... what... this? The core messages of feminism helped me recognize the threads of chauvinism and gender ignorance in me. Thank you. But this is pure crap. If there indeed are men and women who are threatened by comedic women, they no doubt have a complex of mental-social-spiritual pathology that sets them apart from those of us not so much in need of deep therapy, re-education and/or relocation to a different planet.

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never have been a standup comic but I was class clown and made my friends laugh
Posted by: Suzon on Sep 4, 2007 4:26 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe it's how you tell them. A woman on stage wanting to compel people to like and admire her might understandably run into resistance from men and sympathy from women. (I can't imagine men not finding Fanny Brice funny!)

If you are just cracking a joke because the situation arises and you're open to it, it's a far less fraught situation.

On the other hand, there are things which are not funny to men and things that aren't funny to women.

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Okay to be funny
Posted by: BlueTigress on Sep 4, 2007 4:35 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
About the only time it's okay to be funny for a woman is when you are using a joke to defuse a tense or awkward situation.

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» RE: Okay to be funny Posted by: Logic's Edge
» RE: Okay to be funny Posted by: Fat Man at the Buffet Line
» waiting for clever lines Posted by: BlueTigress
» RE: Okay to be funny Posted by: UP58
» RE: Okay to be funny Posted by: BlueTigress
4
Posted by: kepstein7777 on Sep 4, 2007 4:35 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
As usual, I don't agree with everything, but this is a great topic.
Comments:

1. I think the skepticism applies mostly to attractive women. Funny is funny, and people generally accept someone who makes them laugh, regardless of gender, color, etc. But I know when I see an attractive woman on a sit-com or doing stand-up, I sometimes wonder if they put her there to be pretty while someone else is funny, which is often the case...But if she turns out to be funny then, like I said: funny is funny.

2. I think all great comics are considered weird, regardless of gender. And it's usually because they are weird. Comedy geniuses, like other geniuses, are weird, and even creepy. Normal is boring.

3. I don't know why this is, but in the stand-up business there seems to be a glut of bad female comics who are obsessed with relationships, and think rambling on about them is funny. Sadly, I think they contribute to the skepticism about female comics, which doesn't seem fair to good female comics.

4. This article seems to take a few cultural biases, and stretches them into a conspiracy/control thing. If we acknowledge that women are funny, I don't think we're concerned that they're going to take over the planet, or that society will fall apart. Comics have the power to make you laugh and maybe influence politics, but real control comes mostly from money, manipulation, position, etc.

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Some men don't like smart women.
Posted by: lacamila on Sep 4, 2007 4:54 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
You have to be smart to be funny - that's why some men don't like funny women - 'cause they're smart. And, unfortunately, some women realize this and feel they have to pretend not to be quite so smart/funny in order to attract a man. Christopher Hitchens must come across that type of woman on a regular basis - hence his article in Vanity Fair about how women aren't funny. I'd rather just avoid the type of man who doesn't like smart/funny women.

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» RE: Some men don't like smart women. Posted by: Logic's Edge
» What about Miss Teen SC? Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: What about Miss Teen SC? Posted by: dangerouslysane
I don.t care if the commedienne is male or female
Posted by: Ellie1 on Sep 4, 2007 4:56 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
but I have seen Judy Gold perform. SHE makes me feel uncomfortable simply because she is so vulgar. I would feel the same if a man was telling the jokes she tells.

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» Vulgar Posted by: kepstein7777
Oh please!
Posted by: Axiom69 on Sep 4, 2007 5:34 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Give me a break! Men are threatened by female comedians because we fear powerful women? We're about to elect the first woman to the Presidency but we're afraid of the comics? This article was a waste of space.

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» RE: Oh please! Posted by: sunflwrmoonbeam
» Ron Paul Posted by: goatini
» RE: on Paul Posted by: PopRox80
» RE: Oh please! Posted by: fork
» RE: Oh please! Posted by: Axiom69
Only the really dumb and frightened ones
Posted by: owlbear1 on Sep 4, 2007 5:56 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...

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The point seems to have gotten lost, but it is a small one.
Posted by: Wildman on Sep 4, 2007 5:57 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article reads like a light weight feminist critique of women and humor and the comments are light weight critiques of the article.

Men aren’t put off by women who make them chuckle and smile, but a woman who goes for the jugular and tries to make you laugh so hard that your drink comes out your nose, you soil your underwear, and fall backward out of you chair, she runs into more cultural bias than a man. A stand up comedian longs to do that to the audience.

Del Close (the best comedy teacher ever) used to say that to be a great comedian you need to be a sadist and a control freak. You need to want to dominate your audience and control their bodily functions. That needs to feed you on stage not scare you.

A woman who succeeds in mastering this will be as famous and successful as any man, but until they get there, audiences don’t cut women as much slack as men for trying. Women aren’t supposed to want to make you pass a drink out of your nose and soil your pants. If they can,, great! - but they really shouldn’t want to do that . Men are more easily forgiven for trying to be in control and failing than women are. Women who try to be in control and fail don’t get as many points for trying.

That is what I observed over the last 30 years in stand-up

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men are just funnier
Posted by: EasterBunny on Sep 4, 2007 5:59 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
there are funny women of course but just fewer. men are better than women at 3 things, stronger, funnier, and math. two of those things are useful.

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» 2 out of 3 are myths Posted by: Phenix
» RE: 2 out of 3 are myths Posted by: Jordonquits
» RE: 2 out of 3 are myths Posted by: maestra
» RE: 2 out of 3 are myths Posted by: EasterBunny
» RE: 2 out of 3 are myths Posted by: angryyoungwoman
Lateral humor
Posted by: fdgsr on Sep 4, 2007 6:15 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I like lateral humor. Direct humor of the likes of slap-stick colored jokes do not impress me. Along side any subject that could be used for humor there are latent lateral images that expose hidden agendas, political innuendo, and cultural bias that are the substance of truth disguised as ignorance or bold incoherence.

Most men I know and almost all women don't get it when humor reveals their own prejudice or error. The political cartoon is a case in point. The political cartoonist sketches out the images of the lateral truth lines. The funniest women are those who act like men. Men who act like women are not funny.

There are no female political cartoonists of note.

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» Tina Fey Posted by: clairededuras
Jerry Seinfeld said the same thing...
Posted by: J. Bo on Sep 4, 2007 6:18 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...when asked about why women are not perceived as/accepted as being as funny as men, especially in the world of stand-up comedy-- he said that being on a stage and making an audience laugh is an inherently dominating, aggressive act; for the audience, to laugh is to be helpless. As a culture we (men AND women) are uncomfortable being put in that position by a woman. It's a pretty primal prohibition.

OR, to quote Brett Butler, when she described rednecks squinting at her from the audience and what was clearly written across their sour faces: "You wouldn't be talkin' that trash if someone had taught you how to make biscuits..."

Funny women get told all the time (by well-meaning men) "You're the funniest woman/girl I know." I notice that men don't get their own subcatagory when it comes to "funny." Apparently, there are comics, and then there are "women" comics.

The great Elayne Boosler decided decades ago that she would not participate in any showcase/event that was specifically identified as featuring "women" comics, and I admire that choice. She's doing her part to change the sexist status quo in the comedy world while being funny, fierce, political, NOT meanspirited, and... very successful.

I'm actually surprised at how many otherwise-"enlightened" Alternet readers fall back on tired, reactionary, stereotypical rhetoric regarding this topic. On "Politically Incorrect" years ago, Bill Maher posited that the dearth of female comedy writers on TV had less to do with sexism and the "old boy" club than the "fact" that women "just aren't as good at that kind of comedy." Janeane Garofalo shot back, "Yeah, I watch TV written by men, and I'm not laughing my ass off."

To his eternal credit, Maher fell over laughing, and told her she was right.

None of us can "decide" to find something/someone funny-- it's a primal, involuntary response we can't control. We can only hope that subsequent generations provide us funny women and receptive audiences NOT so entrenched in the power bullshit of our culture's outmoded past.

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as previously mentioned...
Posted by: skydog on Sep 4, 2007 6:20 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...the only women who frighten me are Hillary Clinton and the women who support her simply because she's female. A more two-faced corporatist snake never slithered on the face of the earth.

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» Have you seen this? Posted by: kepstein7777
» RE: as previously mentioned... Posted by: Jeffrey Levy
» RE: as previously mentioned... Posted by: dangerouslysane
Is having a vagina a feminist act?
Posted by: JoshuaLudd on Sep 4, 2007 6:23 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Well, sure we may still have pay disparity and a host of other "important" issues.... but really... the pressing question of feminism today is... can we be funny?

Thanks for yet another fluff piece, Alternet.

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» I like fluff. Posted by: kepstein7777
» Why must men agree with you... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: Why must men agree with you... Posted by: dangerouslysane
» nice.... Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» fool-injected commentary Posted by: hagwind
» RE: fool-injected commentary Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» fool-injected foolishness Posted by: hagwind
It would be illuminating to compare the American performer/audience dynamic ...
Posted by: SayBlade on Sep 4, 2007 6:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
... with those in countries like Canada, UK and Australia. This article is a mere snapshot in a microcosm of one person's comedic experience in one country.

In Canada, female comedians are diverse and talented and have a wealth of experiences with audiences. Their stories would certainly come under the topic of comparing female and male audience response and the issue of power.

Many have made their careers in both Canada and the US and some have gone beyond North America.

A few prominent names: Elvira Kurt, Nikki Payne, Carla Collins, Jessica Holmes, Cathy Jones, Mary Walsh, Nancy White.

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Funny women
Posted by: mazel on Sep 4, 2007 6:25 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I disagree with a lot of stuff in this article.

First of all, Sophie Tucker didn't do Yiddish comedy, and although she predates Mae West by 10 years, Mae did more to advance women in comedy in general. Fanny Brice would never have gotten anywhere if current trends in comedy didn't demand ethnic characters. I can't see where Johnny Carson felt threatened by Joan Rivers (who I never thought was funny anyway). As cute as Gilda Radner was, she's best known for work similar to what Carol Burnett was doing for years before Saturday Night Live. So I don't see how what these women did paved the way for other women, really, and I certainly don't see any evidence that men feel threatened by funny women, only the opinion of one female comic with an unfamiliar name.

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» RE: Funny women Posted by: particle
How many feminists
Posted by: RaW on Sep 4, 2007 6:33 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
answer: That's...not...funny.

We laugh at that line. But we don't laugh with the woman delivering it, we laugh at her.

Get a clue from the really successful comediennes - be funny. It works. Look at Ellen DeGeneris' material. It's not about power, stupid and gross men, or relationship trouble. It's not gross or sexist. It's about the unexpected, the incongruous, the silly, astute observations of one's own foibles, and connections among themes across a set.

Or, you could just complain that men can't ask for directions and your husband is a sexist clueless jerk and that you're bloated. Whatever. I'll go see Ellen.

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» RE: How many feminists Posted by: Aussie Kim
» RE: How many feminists Posted by: dangerouslysane
» RE: How many feminists Posted by: Ames
» RE: How many feminists Posted by: Dadster3
I am shocked...
Posted by: goldmarx on Sep 4, 2007 6:53 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...that an article on female standups made no mention of two of my faves: Kathy Griffin and Sarah Silverman. Perhaps because they're overexposed?

Griffin has a huge gay male following, and Silverman has a "shock" following. It helps that they're both pro-porn, which makes sense, because both comedy and porn tickle various bones.

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» RE: I am shocked... Posted by: YogiBear
Lol. Great comedy!
Posted by: ABetterFuture on Sep 4, 2007 6:57 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Barreca, who has written several books on humor, including They Used to Call Me Snow White ... but I Drifted: Women's Strategic Use of Humor, says that means just speaking up can be a subversive act for women.

Successful ("good" is subjective) comedians know their audience, and reach to broaden it. If subversive is the goal, there are good ways to be subversive; if making people laugh is the goal, there are good ways to be funny. If a person isn't capable of melding the two into a money-making skit, then they need to work on their act, if drawing a larger crowd is the goal.

The most successful comic this year preaches the mantra of "gittin'er'dun". Not exactly Chomsky, now is it? Wait...did someone say "Chomsky"...













...oops, nodded off there for a minute. Very smart, very subversive (here I borrow the author's canotation of "subversive") people can suffer from an inability to engage the audience in much the same way as a poor comedian can.

Bottome line: with free speech, you can absolutely have your cake and eat it too, but don't expect people to automatically want to share the thing with you. Pickles and chocolate? I mean...ewwwww.

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OMG, how cool, another aggrievement
Posted by: Moonray on Sep 4, 2007 7:07 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Society tells women to sit down and be quiet? Well, maybe some straw man dreamed up by someone in the Women's Studies Department does that, but hardly anyone else.

In fact, our society is largely female-oriented. If you don't believe it, just turn on the TV or open a magazine, and chances are you will be assailed by women bitching about how they have no power and are not taken seriously.

I'm sure cavemen endured the same bitching, and so will our male descendants a thousand years from now.

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» RE: You'd have a leg to stand on... Posted by: hellofriends
» Amen. nm Posted by: JoshuaLudd
» RE: You'd have a leg to stand on... Posted by: peacefullaim
» RE: You'd have a leg to stand on... Posted by: clairededuras
to keep it simple
Posted by: hellofriends on Sep 4, 2007 7:22 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
shut up

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Of course humor is political -- what else is new?
Posted by: hagwind on Sep 4, 2007 7:25 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
When I was growing up, there weren't many female comedians on TV, and most of the ones I saw got a lot of mileage out of dissing women. Thinking about Phyllis Diller, Joan Rivers, and others here. Yeah, there was often an extravagantly hen-pecked husband in the story, but the focus never strayed far from the monster hen (usually played by the comedian herself) who was doing the pecking. Lucille Ball was a stellar exception, but it's significant that she wasn't doing stand-up; she was the star of a sitcom. A good sitcom provides context -- it's not just the woman who's ditzy, everyone's ditzy. There are several points of view involved; it's not just one comic on a stage. It's also significant that Lucille Ball wasn't just the star: she was a co-writer and co-producer.

In high school, as I began to wake up politically, what I loved was left-leaning humor, like the Smothers Brothers show and Tom Lehrer's songs. Virtually all the humorists were men, and they weren't specifically making fun of women, so it felt unisex to me. (Much later I realized that unisex humor was like unisex clothing: the better a woman conformed to standard male patterns, the better it worked.) Rowan and Martin's Laugh-In was a huge revelation: Women up there on stage being funny! Women being funny about everything, not just about harridan women and hen-pecked men! Lily Tomlin the Great!

It was the women's movement that got me thinking about what I found funny, and why I couldn't listen to Joan Rivers et al. without feeling queasy. What really got me thinking was the mantra that "women had no sense of humor" and specifically that feminists had no sense of humor. This was transparently a crock: nearly every feminist gathering or project I was part of was punctuated by laughter, often raucous and side-splitting laughter. Obviously we had well-developed senses of humor. The problem was that the anti-feminists weren't laughing, and (in typical powers-that-be fashion) they thought this was our problem.

Humor serves many functions. Making fun of the more powerful is a survival skill for many of us, but humor can also be used to squelch dissent and marginalize dissenters. Humor may be universal, but what each of us finds funny sure isn't: unless you hang around exclusively with people just like you, you've probably figured this out already. ;-)

The short version is that power and politics play an important role in how we use humor and what we find funny. The more power you have, the more likely you are assume that you have a great sense of humor: if you don't laugh, it's because the person cracking the joke isn't funny.

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Grousefeather
Posted by: Grousefeather on Sep 4, 2007 8:06 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Oh yeah! Well I'm in love with a funny woman and her name is Sarah Silverman and if she doesn't call me soon I'm going to kill my dog!

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» RE: Grousefeather Posted by: YogiBear
Nonsense! I'm a sucker for funny women.
Posted by: curtdogg on Sep 4, 2007 8:23 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
It's true. I love 'em!

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I'm working as a female stand-up in the UK
Posted by: Cruella on Sep 4, 2007 8:23 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
And believe me prejudice here is alive and well! Not only when you ring for bookings to be told "we already have a woman on the bill that night", to guys who will just hear an MC say "she" about the next act and will get up and head over to the bar or outside for a smoke. Of course lots of people aren't like that but a significant chunk are. They identify themselves to me sometimes by drunkenly staggering up and announcing "you know what love, I used to think, right, that (belch) women weren't funny, but you have really changed my mind". They mean it as a compliment but I think it says more about them than me.

And what hope for the future? The number one comedy award in the UK is the If.comeddies - formerly the perrier award. The main if.comeddy this year was given two weeks ago to an Australian named Brendon Burns. His show "So I Suppose This Is Offensive Now?" was advertised with a poster which featured him "blacked up" with a grass skirt and a bone through his nose, then in a wheelchair, mouth open and arms curled up, then on a cross and in a dress (I don't really see what's offensive about a man wearing a dress, and I'm not that bothered by him on a cross either, but the first two seem inappropriate to me).

I've seen Brendon before and I find his material offensive. Nasty, aggressive and offensive. Here's a typical joke (from a video on YouTube) "Why do gay guys have so much more money than lesbians? Because they don't have girlfriends! ...see you thought I was going to be homophobic, but I wasn't, I was being sexist".

This year's show I didn't see, but some friends of mine did and reliably inform me that the first 45 minutes were plain unadulterated offensive stuff, attacking racial groups, disabled people, gay people and women. The last part of the show is a "clever twist" where he announces he's not really racist, homophobic or sexist at all and that it's all a big joke. The show also features semi-naked women dancing on stage.

To me that feels like those terrible "documentaries about the porn industry" shown on late night channels that aren't really supposed to be showing porn but know full well that no-one is watching for educational reasons. It doesn't really matter to me what the silly justification for the show is, the fact remains that the first 45 minutes are a frenzy of hate-mongering. Surely this isn't the cutting edge of modern comedy? One commenter on the Chortle website - who had loved the show said "...you get to see slutty dancers and not feel guilty".

All of which left me wondering how an awards system which should be there to highlight the great and the good, the ground-breaking, the innovative and truly funny could end up promoting this sort of thing. And the answer, thanks to painstaking hours of research over here at Cru-blog is (at least partly) - the judges! One of the judges is the programming director of Nuts TV.

Nuts TV, which launches in a few days is the TV spin-off of Nuts magazine (a so-called "Lad Mag" full of soft porn) and the channel promises to offer: topless model Lucy Pinder reading a Book at Bedtime, a daily Rude News digest of ‘the least important global stories’ and a hunt for Britain's Fittest Barmaid.

In fact the channel has also recruited two circuit comics to be it's new presenters.

I feel as though MY industry is being co-opted in to the lad mags market. Soon people will be asking why I don't perform naked (sorry - I have already been asked that live on Sky Travel TV) and offered radio work only if I show up to the studio naked (that has happened too actually - no thanks, James Whale).

But there is another way, if comedy consumers reject these kind of shock-jock hate-mongering comedy and opt instead for the genuinely new, interesting and hilarious then they will eventually die out.

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» Cruella, you rock Posted by: hagwind
This is true
Posted by: MartianBachelor on Sep 4, 2007 9:25 AM   
Current rating: 2    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
> "People think it's an anomaly to be
> funny and female," she said.

It is an anomaly to be funny and female, just like it's an anomaly to be an NFL linebacker and female. People, and feminist types in particular, should get over it -- all the more so if they think Joan Rivers is funny.

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» Aw, c'mon! Posted by: morticia
» RE: This is true Posted by: Ames
» RE: This is true Posted by: maestra
» RE: This is true Posted by: morticia
» Touche Posted by: Jordonquits
» RE: This is true Posted by: angryyoungwoman
Alternet: it's not just for intellectuals anymore . . . was it ever?
Posted by: MAD on Sep 4, 2007 9:30 AM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Slow news day. More filler garbage. Nothing more important to discuss? Typical Alternet tactic. Fall back on a divisive and ridiculous feminst treatise to drum up business. yawn.

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» These articles have their place Posted by: clairededuras
» RE: mick3 Posted by: MAD
This comment has been removed from the site due to non-compliance with AlterNet's community policies.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhh...BUT.....
Posted by: ekipnrut on Sep 4, 2007 11:03 AM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Sense of humor is defined differently for men and women, says Gina Barreca, a professor of English literature and feminist theory at the University of Connecticut.
"If you say to a man, 'I know a woman who has a great sense of humor and you've got to meet her,' they think she weighs 300 pounds and has an eye in the middle of her forehead," Barreca says. "If you say to a woman, 'This guy has a great sense of humor; you have to meet him,' she immediately thinks he's cute and will be a great lover and fun to be around. People think the girls who are desirable don't speak, so the syllogism is don't speak to be desirable."

Gina..Gina.....you..just as you are...you're a total scream..
:O)

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I don't see it
Posted by: jak on Sep 4, 2007 11:14 AM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe I'm just different, but I've always sought out and laughed, both with and at, female comics. The author seems more afraid than threatened...or perhaps she just has a big chip on her shoulder....or maybe (I can't say because I've never seen/heard her) her comedy is just not all that funny to most people.

D-

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Anyone who has a great vocab and is witty has Power!
Posted by: emccready on Sep 4, 2007 12:09 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Of course it has power... Ariana Huffington with her incredible vocab is able to slice and dice the politicians and make salad of them. And of course being able to joke about things carries a certain power because people listen, are entertained, and sometimes learn something at the same time. Great way to communicate with the masses. Nothing really feminist about it...just a matter of fact and more power to the women who develop more than just their body... an exciting brain is what it should be all about.

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It isn't so much that female comedians threaten men (or women for that matter) ...
Posted by: RON_KING on Sep 4, 2007 1:02 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
… it is that people of either gender that confront your preconceptions of life are threatening. No-one is immune to that response, but how you choose to act about it is where your humanity is defined.

Yes, women are historically (as in the last 6+ millennia) not supposed to speak out or have opinions. Why they allowed that situation to evolve is beyond me. The 20th century was all about change, not only in the roles of women, but in the way the differing social classes behaved toward one another. There are still a great many people that do not wish for the world to evolve to a more egalitarian state, but I feel that it is necessary for the betterment of the species as well as the well-being of each individual within it, including those that prefer a more stratified culture.

Contrary to the article, I prefer women who ARE funny AND make the jokes. A man has to work harder for me to like his jokes, especially because a lot of male comedians use meanness as their humor style. And a comedian who uses “the battle of the sexes” as their mainstay will lose me in a heartbeat, male or female.

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Too many men *ARE* SEXIST!
Posted by: bpsmith on Sep 4, 2007 1:37 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Just a perfunctory glance at the comments posted by "the guys" reveals so many things:

1. Men are STILL prosecuting this: God Is A Man And Men Are
KING. This applies to the arts, sciences and all human endeavors. It forms the basis of their religions, their plutocracies, their heirarchies, their 'late nite' shows.

2. Too many men are so deranged with their own sense of entitlement and privilege that they have NO sense of humor- they only know that denigrating others (women, queers etc.) amuses them. Accordingly, if its not about them or featuring them it's just not funny.

3. Women who can communicate in a funny/engaging/provocative way without the approval or even, possibly, the participation of "the guys" angers them to NO END.

Having said this, not all guys are threatened by women humorists. Some of us are smart, tuned in and GET THE JOKES! Female and/or queer comedians are usually the funniest because their humor originates from outside the male supremacist schematic (which has held sway for over *2000 years* and counting) and consequently has a more comedic, ironic or clearer take on any given subject. Leave it to "the guys" to whine about all this instead of just GETTING FUNNIER. Remember, women and all who love them: It's not the fault of ALL men, but it is ALL the fault of men. ;)

- Brian S.

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» Awesome! Hilarity! Thx! Posted by: ABetterFuture
» RE: Too many men *ARE* SEXIST! Posted by: YogiBear
» really?! Posted by: off-the-radar 2
» RE: really?! Posted by: YogiBear
» RE: Too many men *ARE* SEXIST! Posted by: YogiBear
» making me think Posted by: off-the-radar 2
This is a jestful comment - I love women and especially funny women
Posted by: mizipi on Sep 4, 2007 1:53 PM   
Current rating: 3    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The biggest problem with women is that they want to be just like men, in that they want everything their way and they want everyone to kiss their asses!

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Women, Comedy, Power
Posted by: Jeffrey Levy on Sep 4, 2007 6:25 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Hey, no woman ever told me she liked my parallel parking. I guess I've been missing out.

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Oh My Yes!
Posted by: opeluboy on Sep 4, 2007 6:46 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Every time I meet a funny woman or a female tells a joke, I break out in hives and become impotent for days on end. I spend the next week tossing and turning in my bed wondering if the world is coming to an end and if I'll ever be a man again. It's truly terrifying!

What is really frightening is the nightmare thought of an entire troop of female comics performing one after the other. I have heard that this has actually happened.

God help us all.

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» RE: Oh My Yes! Posted by: Jordonquits
» RE: Oh My Yes! Posted by: YogiBear
I only discovered Fanny Brice last Sunday night!
Posted by: Aussie Kim on Sep 4, 2007 7:29 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Was watching a repeat of a doco about American Musicals that was on ABC tv VERY late... :}

What an amazing talent she was! WHY had I NEVER heard of her before last weekend?! We have totally missed out, because I'm damn sure many other people have never heard of her, either...

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My short answer to the article's question is ..
Posted by: techphile on Sep 4, 2007 7:39 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
no. My guess is that most men would not be bothered by a funny woman unless she does things that they perceive as attacking their most precious beliefs.
But this would not make them any different from other sociological groups. I would guess that as long as she is funny a female comedian is okay with them

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why
Posted by: Eat Politicians on Sep 4, 2007 10:43 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
do people make statements about men or women as a collective group? Isn't that the whole problem?

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Men are threatened by:
Posted by: narcissusblind on Sep 5, 2007 12:12 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
funny women
intelligent women
tall women
sexually aggressive women
self made women
career women
muscular women
masculine women
emotionally secure women
socially superior women
Lesbians


Or any woman who is bigger, better or has more.

The human female seeks superior genetic stock to improve the genes of her offspring. Genetically superior female leaves inferior male with no biological role. The male ego knows this -- will protect itself from emasculation. The inferior male knows natural selection will cause any sexual pursuit of superior females to result in a rejection of biological necessity. And jockey snake goes turtle.

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the burden of priviledge
Posted by: rapideye23 on Sep 5, 2007 1:32 AM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I had a sociology class in college, in the mid-90's, in which we were discussing racial disparity. As a means of turning the tables so that those of us in the white majority, like herself, would better understand the effects of racism, the prof had us all participate in an exercise. It was one she had done in the sixties, when she was a college student and had found very useful. She had the whole class stand up, and then she went through a list of statements like
Sit down if you have ever been watched in a store because of the color of your skin, or
Sit down if you have ever not been served in a restaurant because of the color of your skin.
She went through a list of about 10 of these and every person of color stayed in their seats and every white person stayed standing. I found myself getting very angry, because, yes, I had been treated poorly in many of these situations, but, never because of the color of my skin. Also, I think I was angry because, I had spent my life hyper-aware of my inherritted priviledge as a white, middle-class American. I felt guilty for the priviledges I had not earned or asked for but, had no control over accepting or rejecting, and often very little awareness of as priviledge, when they should be, and are often classified as human rights.
Many people in the class were angry to the point that the prof apologized at the next class, and refused to discuss it further. I thought it would have been a great exercise to discuss why we were all made so angry, by something that was true and basically, not threatening.
I also have been known to get angry when a man has said to me, that I have been no less priviledged than he, and then insists that I tell him exactly how my life has been more difficult, or under greater threat. I have been challenged as both a member of the majority, and as a minority, to defend my position and neither one feels good.
Reading all of these comments, many are reactionary and angry, both pro and con. Yes, racism and sexism are alive and well in our society. But, we have the added burden of those in the majority growing up with guilt for the priviledge that they were born into. Does this create more race/sexism? I think it can, particularly when a person has been disenfranchised by circumstances beyond their control. There are many white men out of work, homeless or struggling not to be, with no great control or power over their circumstances. Thses are extreme examples, but, even a small injustice can create a sense of unfairness and anger. I'm not saying this justifies prejudice, but, I like to think it's easier to counter a problem, if we have an understanding of at least some of the factors that serve to create it.
I have to say I love this article purely because of the interesting debate that it creates in the comments! Maybe Alternet really knows what it's doing, allowing for the majority of pertinent substance to come from it's audience!

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» Great post, rapideye23 Posted by: hagwind
» RE: Great post, rapideye23 Posted by: YogiBear
NOT EVERYTHING IS SEXISM!
Posted by: Jordonquits on Sep 5, 2007 4:07 AM   
Current rating: 1    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
Maybe there is something in guys brains that makes em funnier! Just like men are more suited for logic and math, there might be a physiological difference which accounts for the general perception that men are funnier. One possible reason may be because of the agressive nature of comedy (the insults, the political incorrectness etc.), which men would naturally be better at. I have met many funny women, but by far the funniest people I know are guys! In professional comedy, there are again many funny women (Sarah Silverman being a very good example), but still, the funniest are guys. And many of the funniest female comedians are lesbians (Ellen Degeneres, Rosie O'donnel etc.), further adding weight to the argument that perhaps testosterone levels contribute to humour. Of course, gay men also tend to be very funny, which is something of a counter example, but gay men still have more testosterone, and male characteristics, than women.

The touchy-feely left, of which Alternet is a proud member, likes to make everything a sex or race issue. The fact is, though sexism and racism are incrdibly serious, not always are gender gaps caused by sexism. Men and women are physically and psychologically different because we evolved to serve different purposes. Saying that the perception of women as less funny is due to residual sexism is like saying the interior design industry is percieved as being a feminine for the same reason. While in reality interior design is dominated by women (and gays) because women are generally better at it than men!

I am not saying that women cannot be funny, or that they have to be lesbians or jews to be; I am simply saying that [i]on average [/i] men are funnier. And that this is for purely physiological reasons.

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» RE: NOT EVERYTHING IS SEXISM! Posted by: clairededuras
» RE: NOT EVERYTHING IS SEXISM! Posted by: Jordonquits
Lisa Lampinelli
Posted by: PeaceLove on Sep 5, 2007 2:40 PM   
Current rating: Not yet rated    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
...is hands down the most screamingly funny, wet-your-pants funny, gasp-for-breath-and-shoot-water-through-your-nose funny comic, male or female, working today. And she manages to be dirty and feminine and sexy and sweet, all at the same time.

She's Dorothy Parker, Don Rickles, and Sam Kinison merged into a single zaftig hurricane of world-class timing. Fantastic.

All the women I've loved the most in my life have been sharp, intelligent, super-fast wits. Anything less bores me. But I'll admit I often have to look long and hard before I find these women.

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» RE: Lisa Lampinelli Posted by: YogiBear
Femle Stand-up with Threated List Credentials
Posted by: RosieRivetor on Sep 5, 2007 2:56 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
I am in total agreement to everything on the threatened list in the post above and find that most of the comments on this post about this article are misguided and juvenile.

Like it or not, the truth is that our society is still uncomfortable with strong women. Whether it is physical, intellectual, humor or any combination, the idea that a woman is just chattel is still deeply ingrained in our society. Even women are guilty of subscribing to this philosophy whether they do it consciously or not.

We all develop our personalities based on our experiences. If daddy praises a little girl for her beauty and it makes her feel good, she will define herself by that beauty. If mommy approves of her sons aggressive behavior as being her big man, he will continue on that trend. We are conditioned to our responses and to this most men (not all) are generally conditioned to be threatened by this list.

Women in business who are assertive are called aggressive or pushy while a man that does the same thing is called driven or direct. Men are threatened by tall or muscular women because this is one area where men feel they should still have an advantage. Movies and all our conditioning say that a woman with a sex drive must be a tramp so sexually aggressive women that are not pros are generally feared as well. And lesbians (unless blond and stacked in a porno film) are threatening because they can exist happily and fulfilled without a man.

As for comedy, I am female, I am 6’2” tall, I was a division one level athlete in college, a straight A student and I have been a stand-up comedian. Let’s face it, I AM the threatened list. Having had the experience personally, I can say it is more difficult for women because comedy is still predominantly male and just getting stage time is difficult until you are a middle act. However, how gender translates on stage all depends on the audience and the ability of the comedian to present material that meets their interest. In my experience, predominantly male audiences, especially those under 25 tend to enjoy more blue and below the belt humor (which is why women like Sarah Silverman have resorted to this – after all as a comedian it is your responsibility to entertain the paying customers no matter who they are). Many female comedians play to this level regularly because it is safe – which is a shame. Dick jokes and cussing are the lowest form of intellect and any comedian (male or female) who has to result to them should not even be allowed on stage.

Conversely, mixed audiences tend to look for a point of view and expect more from the comedian. That is what separates the greats (male or female) from the rest of the hacks out there. Stand up comedy is an art that demands not just a sense of humor, but the ability to look at the world from your own unique perspective and turn that into something interesting that will make others laugh. This is the point of the article. Historically the female point of view has been ignored or feared. Times may be changing but in the comedy world, misogynism is still very much alive and well. Women who succeed have to be better and funnier than men who achieve the same level of success. Nobody is belly aching here, the truth is the truth.

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Do guys find funny women sexy?
Posted by: BrokeGirl on Sep 5, 2007 4:56 PM   
Current rating: 5    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
This article inspired me to a write a follow-up to my popular post that asked Do Sexy & Smart Women Not Exist? I've written Do Men Find Funny Women Sexy? after interviewing guys for dailycents.com

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weird title
Posted by: DaBear on Sep 6, 2007 12:45 PM   
Current rating: 4    [1 = poor; 5 = excellent]
The article is about female stand-up performers' experience so the title is misdirecting, on purpose I'm sure. I kind of like that... it's perverse in a way.

My own experience has never included a feeling of being threatened by funny women nor has my own experience ever included even once thinking that women can't be funny. So the article was very interesting, as were some of the comedy folks who commented and shared experiences that backed up what the article says. It's very much outside my own experience.

I'm terrible with names, I remember faces better, but I remember being raised on Lucille Ball, Carol Burnett, Lily Tomlin, and later, Rosie O'Donnell (her stand-up era), Ellen Degeneris, the whole cast of SNL, et al. It's true stand-up acts like Lewis Black or Robin Williams gut-punch me more than others, but I don't think it's because they're men, I think it's more that they are attention different like me and they're both pretty much uncontrollable and I like uncontrollable. Come to think of it, when I used to live near the Ice-House I used to go see Rosie O'Donnell on Friday nights because her act was out of control too. I never thought Joan Rivers or Johnny Carson were funny at all. Never thought much of Bob Hope either, I hated his act. I like edgy and out of control, socially irreverent acts I guess, some one who can say "fuck" on stage and make me lose my ability to breathe in the process. Because that's where I live.

Thanks for the article, I'll be paying more attention to how others react to female stand-ups. As for myself, funny is funny. To gender funny seems very bizarre.

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Comics
Posted by: chollin2 on Sep 7, 2007 6:19 AM   
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That is so true. Granted in America there are many well established female comedians, still the most notable are male. I feel that female comedians are gaining more recognition however and will soon be viewed as funnier than many male comics!

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Under the blanket (statement)
Posted by: YogiBear on Sep 7, 2007 10:36 PM   
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men are uncomfortable with women having the power associated with humor.

There's a word for this, but I'm not certain if it's prejudice, bigotry or plain 'ol intolerance. Some men? Nope, just 'men.'

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A co-worker recently asked...
Posted by: YogiBear on Sep 7, 2007 11:09 PM   
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...can you name three women you've known who were funny? I couldn't name one, and none of us could name more than one. His contention was that women just weren't funny. I accepted it at first, but I've thought on it more and now I'm thinking it's probably one of a few things (or a mixture):

1. Women are funny in a different way then men; perhaps more often wry or otherwise that makes it harder for me to remember their humor.

2. Because of our vast biological and sociological differences, maybe the problem is that women are more often funny to other women and men to other men, and since men consume the most humor at the present time, or possibly because men control things, we just don't 'get' women's humor and vice-versa. At one point, I recall finding Andrew Dice Clay to be quite funny.

3. Actually, I can't remember my third point. But there was one. And it seemed so important when I grasped it.

Suffice to say, I find my wife's outlook on people very funny, but seldom, if ever, to cause me to laugh out loud.

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